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  1. #31
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    i just like spouting the "Saputo is a billionaire" line cuz way back when there were 7 candidates, apparently deep pockets mattered. So people framed the expansion debate as "deep pockets wins" and "Saputo is a billionaire, so he will have no problem paying the fee". And then when he refused to pay the full fee, his apologists came out and say "well, the fee is too much, particularly in this economy!". to which I always say.. "but Saputo is a BILLIONAIRE!!!" (with emphasis)..

    i think if he went into MLS, he'd just start up a new corporation and everything would be completely separate from the non-profit organization that exists now. maybe that nonprofit would still operate the Attak and other programs.

    MLS owners are like franchise operators, and pay percentages of certain revenues to MLS, but they keep the rest and MLS pays the salaries.
    Last edited by rocker; 03-03-2009 at 08:44 PM.

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    Does anyone else realize what this will mean for canadian soccer? Vancouver has 7 players on the Canadian U-20 team we have 2, this is largely due to the commitment they are allowed to have to youth development, however, that is clearly not favoured for MLS franchises so the question is why would they continue to develop such outstanding young talent if they're unable to acquire it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocker View Post
    i think if he went into MLS, he'd just start up a new corporation and everything would be completely separate from the non-profit organization that exists now. maybe that nonprofit would still operate the Attak and other programs.
    That makes sense.........but I wonder how the other partners in the NPO would feel (Government of Quebec and Hydro Quebec)? The government gave the L'impact the land for free, and I am sure Joey's dad got a tax receipt for his donation towards the stadium. I don't think the tax payers would just let them walk away with the stadium with a new corporation.

    Perhaps Joey would have to pay for all upgrades to the stadium out of his own pocket, and perhaps the NPO would still own and operate the stadium......which would cut Joey out of a lot of the potential revenue streams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SweetOwnGoal View Post
    This is coming from a source I trust and from someone who was involved in getting me DeRo information in Jan (which turned out to be correct).

    I know some will dismiss me because of where it’s being published, but...

    I trust this info.

    http://24thminute.blogspot.com/2009/...expansion.html
    Awesome, this is the best possible outcome, in my opinion.

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    Although I am sad Montreal wont be included, I am glad that Vancouver got in. Furthermore, I think Portland could be a great addition, I just hope they can average at least 16.5k a game. As long as a team posts up higher attendance than the current league average of 15k, I'll be happy. As for the 2013 round, I still think Ottawa had no shot in hell seeing as how the recession will likely be over, MLS will continue to have grown through it, and many new bids will come up.

  6. #36
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    opens the door for Victoria USL 1 and More Canadian Championship teams with possible Hamilton USL 1 WHOOOOAHHH!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmacpheetfc View Post
    opens the door for Victoria USL 1 and More Canadian Championship teams with possible Hamilton USL 1 WHOOOOAHHH!

    That would make 5 high-level Canadian teams. 3 more and we'd have to consider an actual Canadian League. I wonder if being a Canadian League would help or hinder teams though.

    8 teams. Double Home-and-Away schedule means 28 games. Add in a Home-and-Away knock-out League Cup (which is how I think Coppa Italia is done) and that means a minimum 30 games (15 home dates) for each team.

    Rumours of USL-1 teams for Winnipeg and Halifax would push it really close.

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    Vancouver in MLS just makes sense. It's a city with a good track record of soccer support and the numbers keep increasing, and the proposal for having a temporary home at BC Place is more than what other candidate cities could offer in terms of stadia plans. I don't know much about Portland's bid, but hopefully things work out well for them. Of course, the best scenario would be having Montreal in as well, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.
    Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.

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    i just hope Garber announces this soon, cuz he's delayed forever. There can't be much more to wait for really. Vancouver's bid is set now (even if you think the Bc Place thing isn't good), St.Louis is set ('cept for that 'negotiating the entrance fee' rumour...). the Ottawa thing might take months to resolve, given the debate over whether to build a CFL or MLS stadium. And Portland's request to the government should be resolved by next week.

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    interesting Garber quote

    "When you look at the success they have had with the sport, particularly Vancouver and Portland, where they have USL teams that do very well, far better than Miami FC, that ultimately played a role in our whittling-down process," Garber said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocker View Post
    i just hope Garber announces this soon, cuz he's delayed forever. There can't be much more to wait for really. Vancouver's bid is set now (even if you think the Bc Place thing isn't good), St.Louis is set ('cept for that 'negotiating the entrance fee' rumour...). the Ottawa thing might take months to resolve, given the debate over whether to build a CFL or MLS stadium. And Portland's request to the government should be resolved by next week.
    I think the delay has a lot to do with all these suckas dropping out!

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    I just hope that MLS soccer fans aren't relying on Van fans for the same support TFC fans show. Currently, it isnt there. Sure all the soccer moms come out to watch the game, but the atmosphere is not and will not be anywhere near BMOs.

    If you watch the nutrilite game in van, u can hear the annoucer say something along the lines of "the crowd is really into it today". Im proud to say that was thanks to WCR and the other TFC fans who got into it!

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    porrtland from pics, looks like a wicked city

    alot of americans looking for new roots to put down seem to be moving there.


    Portland and seatle are alot more canadian like than the rest of the states.

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    Vancouver would be a great addition to MLS. Though the only downside of that would be the loss of their excellent residency program because of MLS rules. Though I'm sure there's some way to get around that... Maybe create a farm team or something and transfer the residency program to them with an unwritten understanding that the products will be signed by Vancouver.

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    Agree with all the pro-Vancouver sentiments. I think, eventually, Montreal will come in too, but there's some shit to be vopercome there first. That's gonna be one kick ass rivalry when ti happens though!

    My concern with anothe Canadian club coming into MLS is the squeeze on domestic players for TFC. We had this thread a while back I think, but MLS needs to scrap the distinction between US and Canuck players for administrative roster designation purposes only (ie, no impact at all on immigration matters so no favouring of Canuck players over other nations). You still have to get over the same non-US player hurdles to get in and play, but once you're in, US and Canuck players all count as domestic, for both US and Canuck franchises. It will help US teams too, stop us getting arse fucked whenever a good Canuck player becomes available and increase the number of Canuck players in MLS overall, which is good for the CMNT and youth development.

    Just my 2c.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocker View Post
    interesting Garber quote

    "When you look at the success they have had with the sport, particularly Vancouver and Portland, where they have USL teams that do very well, far better than Miami FC, that ultimately played a role in our whittling-down process," Garber said.
    Seeing as USL attendance seems all-important all of a sudden, they should revoke Toronto's team because the Lynx were such an atrocious draw

    I'm pretty tired of the venom for the Miami bid on this board. What passes for informed opinion on that topic here is a joke. I'll bet most of you have never set foot in South Florida.

    The fact that the bid sponsors there don't want to fork over $40 million is not a comment on the viability of Miami as an MLS venue. Same as for Montreal.

    I am thrilled for Vancouver. That would be great news.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitcho View Post
    Agree with all the pro-Vancouver sentiments. I think, eventually, Montreal will come in too, but there's some shit to be vopercome there first. That's gonna be one kick ass rivalry when ti happens though!

    My concern with anothe Canadian club coming into MLS is the squeeze on domestic players for TFC. We had this thread a while back I think, but MLS needs to scrap the distinction between US and Canuck players for administrative roster designation purposes only (ie, no impact at all on immigration matters so no favouring of Canuck players over other nations). You still have to get over the same non-US player hurdles to get in and play, but once you're in, US and Canuck players all count as domestic, for both US and Canuck franchises. It will help US teams too, stop us getting arse fucked whenever a good Canuck player becomes available and increase the number of Canuck players in MLS overall, which is good for the CMNT and youth development.

    Just my 2c.
    I don't think you have to worry about that too much. International spots are tradeable, and I am sure that MLS in all fairness will allow them some roster slots just like they did for TFC.

    What will be interesting is who will get dibs on their players in residency. Since the program was running before any MLS entry, I wouldn't be surprised if they negotiate something where the players will be grandfathered in, so any new ones they acquire will be subject to the MLS rules of only signing one a year.

  18. #48
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    ^ yes, but the worry for me is thag each Canadian side must have so many Canadian players on its rosters, whatever else they are dealt in interanational spots etc. There are only so many good Canadian players. If Vancouver and any other Canadian team join MLS, then suddenly there's massive pressure on those good players, and it gets worse for every side that joins. SO they either need to reduce the required number for each new Canadian side that enters the league, or scrap any administrative distinction between US and Canadian players. otherwise, the more Canadian teams that join, the more pressure there is on the few good players available (leading to an ass fucking in trades) and the weaker the Canadian teams will become overall by being forced to include sub-standard players from Canada on their rosters just to make up the numbers.
    We are the Angry Mob, we read the papers every day
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    Portland is the loudest supporters in USL...and be up there with TFC and DC United. If this source is true im happy Portland is in MLS. As for Vancouver....i want them in MLS, i would of just rather they waited till they get some new stadium plans finalized before getting a team. Im worried Vancouver is gonna become like Seattle and never get a SSS built, Montreal would of been my better choice!

  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by SweetOwnGoal View Post
    This is coming from a source I trust and from someone who was involved in getting me DeRo information in Jan (which turned out to be correct).

    I know some will dismiss me because of where it’s being published, but...

    I trust this info.

    http://24thminute.blogspot.com/2009/...expansion.html


    I heard the same thing from my source. should be announced later this month before the season starts!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I'll bet most of you have never set foot in South Florida.
    Since apparently you've set foot in South Florida, explain why (in factual terms) Miami is so good.

    I'll begin the opposite by noting 1) that Miami has near bottom attendance in every pro sport in the city; and 2) they had no clear plan for an SSS or any real attempt at a future solution.

    Nobody is saying support is the one and only reason Miami got knocked out.
    If you read the Garber quotes, support was just one element.

    I don't see how their unwillingness to fork out the $40million ***is not*** a comment on the viability of the market. If the market was amazing and viable, and the ownership group had the kind of deep pockets MLS wants, then the $40million would not be an issue. The Miami owners would have just written up a check, as Vancouver and Portland say they are willing to do.
    Last edited by rocker; 03-04-2009 at 02:28 PM.

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    Tangent:

    Does that mean Ronnie O will be back in the MLS with Portland?

  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocker View Post
    Since apparently you've set foot in South Florida, explain why (in factual terms) Miami is so good.

    I'll begin the opposite by noting 1) that Miami has near bottom attendance in every pro sport in the city; and 2) they had no clear plan for an SSS or any real attempt at a future solution.

    Nobody is saying support is the one and only reason Miami got knocked out.
    If you read the Garber quotes, support was just one element.

    I don't see how their unwillingness to fork out the $40million ***is not*** a comment on the viability of the market. If the market was amazing and viable, and the ownership group had the kind of deep pockets MLS wants, then the $40million would not be an issue. The Miami owners would have just written up a check, as Vancouver and Portland say they are willing to do.
    1) Miami is the 7th largest MSA in North America
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_o...tistical_Areas
    It is far larger than any of the other cities on the original bidder list.

    2) South Florida has fabulous demographics in terms of having a natural soccer fan base. Miami and Toronto rank #1 and #1A in terms of percentage of population born outside of the city. Of the 65% of Miami residents that are hispanic, only a little more than half are of Cuban descent.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami#Demographics

    3) Market cares about soccer. Extensive, virtually daily coverage of European, Latin American leagues, as well as MLS. Drive around Dade and Broward counties and you will see many more soccer fields than baseball diamonds (the opposite is true in the rest of Florida)

    4) People often point to problems of other sports teams in Miami as "proof" that Miami won't support pro sports. You say Miami's near the bottom of attendance in every pro sports - that's not true, especially when you factor in stadium location.

    Fusion were not a failure. They drew 8,000-10,000 despite having a horrendous owner who screwed the season ticket holders and playing in a high school stadium 30 miles from downtown Miami. Ask yourself how TFC would have done if they had a bankrupt owner and they played in a high school stadium in Newmarket or Oshawa

    Panthers drew 14,000-15,000 as a successful expansion team in the Miami Arena but since moving to Sunrise in 1998 (which is at least as far from downtown Miami as Oshawa is from downtown Toronto) attendance has been OK (they report around 15,000 but it's totally inflated, probably closer to 11,000-12,000). Given how bad the team has been on the ice (no playoffs in 9 years), and how remote the stadium is, attendance has actually been OK. The Panthers biggest problem, like most sunbelt hockey teams, is that they get zero TV revenue.
    http://www.andrewsstarspage.com/NHL-...attendance.htm

    Heat were and are a success. They play in a central location, in downtown Miami, which is important.
    http://www.basketballreference.com/t...tm?tm=MIA&lg=N

    Dolphins - perpetual sellouts. No discussion required

    Marlins are a failure. I don't like baseball so I'm not expert on this, but the primary reason seems to be ownership problems (they've never spent to keep their winning teams together) and their lack of access to luxury box revenues. They are trying to get a new stadium, with public money, to address this, or they say they'll move. It's not going to happen.
    http://www.bizjournals.com/southflor...2/daily49.html
    Their recent attendance has been atrocious. That team probably should fold/move.

    Miami FC are not a success, but neither were the Lynx. Cities this size won't support minor league teams.

    So one of the teams is a true "failure". Same as the Grizzlies in Vancouver or the Expos in Montreal. These "failures" don't seem to matter, but the Marlins somehow do.

    5) So I assume since the Impact wouldn't pay $40 million, that says to you that Montreal is not an MLS-worthy city?

    6) Re the SSS it's a huge issue, it's a big part of why this bid didn't go forward. If that stadium isn't centrally located, it won't work (Chicago and Dallas tell you all you need to know about suburban SSSs). Without public money, there won't be a centrally-located SSS in south Florida. And there's no public money for this now....
    Last edited by ensco; 03-04-2009 at 03:54 PM.
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    I have a tendency to trust this one. It makes sense for a lot of reasons.

    One big one that hasn't really been stated before is that the travellin fan base in the Pacific Northwest -- with Portland, Seattle and Vancouver all viably travelling to away games in numbers -- could create some real electricity.

    The league is realizing that the gameday and fan culture, as demonstrated here and again in Seattle, are essential to success. They want to emulate the proximity rivalries that have driven the culture in Europe and creating "corridors" instead of spreading teams far and wide makes sense.

    It would also make sense then to add Ottawa and/or Montreal and St. Louis in 2013 to recreate the same proximities in the east. It also gives time for the Ottawa Landsdowne/suburbs debate to play out without MLS having to get involved, and for St. Louis to figure out any financial issues.

    On top of that, after writing for Ives's blog, I'm sure Duane realizes what it would do to his blog's rep if he were dead wrong on this one. It would be career suicide to pull a Stephen Glass in such a niche atmosphere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmacpheetfc View Post
    opens the door for Victoria USL 1 and More Canadian Championship teams with possible Hamilton USL 1 WHOOOOAHHH!
    Actually this might close the door for the Victoria USL 1 team. The owners of their current PDL team decided against joining USL 1 because Seattle, Portland, and Vancouver were likely to move to MLS and then they wouldn't have any local rivals. They would be on an island in the pacific northwest (litterally and figuratively). Once all those teams move to MLS it seems unlikely we'll see a USL-1 team in Victoria.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post

    Heat were and are a success. They play in a central location, in downtown Miami, which is important.
    http://www.basketballreference.com/t...tm?tm=MIA&lg=N

    Dolphins - perpetual sellouts. No discussion required
    Dolphins
    The Dolphins are not a perpetual sellout, they only average 87% capacity which is somewhere around 65k. They are 18th in the league in attendance. I don't actually think this is very important though because typical football and soccer fans are different people, I would really like to see a survey of how many Dolphins fans would care about the MLS expansion.

    Heat
    15th in the league with near 18k a game. A definite success but again, are these the same people that will flock to MLS games?

    I think Miami should get a team if they SSS and it is downtown, otherwise look at other options until 2013ish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kodiakTFC View Post
    Dolphins
    The Dolphins are not a perpetual sellout, they only average 87% capacity which is somewhere around 65k. They are 18th in the league in attendance. I don't actually think this is very important though because typical football and soccer fans are different people, I would really like to see a survey of how many Dolphins fans would care about the MLS expansion.

    Heat
    15th in the league with near 18k a game. A definite success but again, are these the same people that will flock to MLS games?

    I think Miami should get a team if they SSS and it is downtown, otherwise look at other options until 2013ish.
    Dolphins didn't sell out coming off a 1-15 season, but they're "successful" by any definition of the word.

    Imho, zero overlap between Dolphins fans and MLS fans. Same for the Heat, who have a very different fan base than the Raps do (much higher percentage of caucasian, white collar people in both lower bowl and upper bowl) .

    MLS would tap totally distinct fan base, I think.

    Agree with your conclusion. If it's more than 15 minutes from the 395 and 95, forget about it
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by T_Mizz View Post
    Does anyone else realize what this will mean for canadian soccer? Vancouver has 7 players on the Canadian U-20 team we have 2, this is largely due to the commitment they are allowed to have to youth development, however, that is clearly not favoured for MLS franchises so the question is why would they continue to develop such outstanding young talent if they're unable to acquire it?
    Perhaps Kerfoot will move his USL-1 operation to Victoria when Vancouver starts playing in MLS. Under that arrangement, the Whitecaps can funnel players from their academy to their USL-1 team, and then up to their MLS team.

    Okay, maybe the prospect of Vancouver laundering players up to its senior squad is a little out of left field, but I've read stranger rumours.

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    C'mon ensco, look at the reality we're facing.

    If Miami was such a shoe-in for an MLS franchise, the city would either have a team by now or would be having multiple bidders fronting proposals to the league for consideration. The fact of the matter is that the only person with any credible interest for a club in the city was Claure (with backing by Barca) and even if he did stick with the plan, Garber himself expressed apprehension towards the viability of another team in the area. Don't believe me?

    "We are convinced Miami is a soccer market but we are not convinced it is an MLS market at this point and for the stability of the league we had to make sure we made a smart decision that didn't come back to haunt us later," he (Garber) said.

    "I think someday, when our league is established as the league of all soccer fans in America, Miami will be in our family. But for now we are seeing more support and promise from the other (bidding) cities -- Portland, Vancouver, Ottawa and St. Louis."

    "We didn't sense that same local buzz from the soccer community in Miami," he said.
    http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/...-BARCELONA.php

    Personally, I thought Miami was gonna get it up until a few days ago, despite how badly things there could have unfolded. Like the man said, maybe someday Miami will prove itself ready for a club, but not now and probably not before several of the other aforementioned bidders are gven their franchises.
    Last edited by Cashcleaner; 03-05-2009 at 06:05 AM.
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    "We are convinced Miami is a soccer market but we are not convinced it is an MLS market at this point and for the stability of the league we had to make sure we made a smart decision that didn't come back to haunt us later," he (Garber) said.

    "I think someday, when our league is established as the league of all soccer fans in America, Miami will be in our family. But for now we are seeing more support and promise from the other (bidding) cities -- Portland, Vancouver, Ottawa and St. Louis."

    "We didn't sense that same local buzz from the soccer community in Miami," he said.
    When I read this the first thing I thought was that there was just some spin happening by the MLS front office because they of course don't want to tell you that the reason that MLS Barca pulled out is because they don't beleive the bid is worth the cost of 40 million.

 

 

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