Indeed. Had to share
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2017 TFC was a 'super team' by MLS standards. Jozy played 27 games and potted 15 goals.
Somehow Victor Vazquez landed in Toronto for dirt cheap in wages, and I bet you no decent int'l playmaker is ever going to land in TFC's laps like that again.
But the most important signing of 2017 team was Drew Moor. Until I see a decent commanding CB who can organize the defence, you can sign all the Insignes of the world, but TFC is going to be at best something like 2016 (edit: it's suppose to say 2015) team. Going to be entertaining to watch on attack, but so frustrating on defence. Attack wins you games. Defence wins championships.
Yeah I think it's too long too, but Insigne doesn't nibble unless he's guaranteed big money for a long time.
Insigne can take a short 2 yr contract or something at less money in Europe, then go to MLS or Middle East when 33 ish for the last big paycheck.
Though the length of contract and the money being thrown at Insigne is like, is TFC that desperate to get Insigne? Hoping that he'll have the same impact as Giovinco?
I share the bewilderment at the signing. The one thing I disagree with you on Encso is Soteldo being a mercenary. Not that he isn't, but literally everyone on our team is. Fro, Manning to BB down to every player they're all here because Bogers turn on the money tap and if that money tap ever turns off they'd all go with it, every single one of them. Except in *extraordinarily* rare circumstances loyalty from players to a club is a marketing gimmick and not a real thing. They have themselves to look out for, a very finite amoiunt of time to make money and win trophies and that comes first for all of them - and rightly so. Seba was only here for the money, he even left us for the money, and the guy is TFCs GOAT so I don't see this as a bad thing it just is what it is. Francesco Tottis are the exception, not the norm. As for Soteldo, in general I think he had a pretty good season in what was incredibly trying circumstances with Covid and having absolutely 0 in terms of top level strikers to work with
But I do also wonder about the spending. I was worried about the Jozy re-signing percisely because I thought it's only a matter of time until Bogers realize what a terrible ROI they've gotten with TFC and that deal was one of the worst examples. Basically I was worried it'd be the straw that broke the camels back. They've absolutely sunk money in and gotten what? Over the course of the money era, eg 'bloody big deal' to now, but for one season they've gotten a frankly very mediocre return on any key metric for the money to put in - points per game ($ to point earned we must be the worst team in MLS over the past 7 years, right?), MLS cups, CCLs, TV ratings, money recouped on selling players - there's nothing they've gotten that they couldn't have gotten a hell of alot cheaper and hasn't been gotten a hell of alot cheaper elsewhere
So I'm pleasantly amazed by the numbers they're still willing to throw around here. I have no understanding as to why, that they see the next two WCs as massive opportunities is the only thing that makes sense, but at least they're doing it. As a fan I'll stop trying to understand for a bit and just enjoy the ride if this is the kind of signing we're going to be trying to make. At least until the other shoe drops.
^was wondering… lol
These guys, lets call them the Italians or whoever they are… are going to love Toronto. The last two years have been brutal on Canadian teams.
We are not out of this pandemic yet and there will still be adjustments but we love a winner (and it looks like we are intent on building one).
The next 4 years if we are serious about building soccer in Canada are going to be pretty awesome.
I would say that most of the spend is a result of a desire for relevance. With the Leafs, Raptors, and Jays, we already struggle to be news worthy and reportable. Getting the big names, makes us noteworthy whether or not we win. If we combine noteworthiness with winning we become a worthwhile property for MLSE to hold.
Even our homegrowns clamor to leave for Europe. There is no such thing as loyalty to a club anymore. There is only loyalty to one's career and maximizing career earnings.
Sounds like Manning is heading to Italy to talk to the man himself.
Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/footballitalia/status/1476625675402584071?s=20
I see what you’re staying but I think there’s a grey area in here somewhere.
Maybe loyalty is the wrong way to describe it but perhaps it’s engagement or buy-in to a project. We need guys who see their success as the team’s success. Liking the city is great if it helps you perform on the field.
Both Giovinco and Solteldo would sell themselves to the highest bidder. But Giovinco is a borderline crazed maniac about winning and wants to help the team. Solteldo? As far as I can tell he gives zero fucks as long as he gets his.
Manning could also use the Italian trip to speak to guys like Bellotti, Destro and Criscito in person provided some of those rumors are true.
Hope they send the Bradleys along, I think they would have more sway
I hear you, I just think Soteldo gets harshly judged here. It's not easy moving to a country completely unlike where you came from and then have Covid in the middle and be stuck in a hotel in Florida for a large part of it while the team completely falls apart in general and then on the field he's given absolutely no forward to work with which he really needs. I think that's alot of factors to consider and honestly with that in mind I think he put in decent performances and put up good numbers
Been thinking about your point on him above and here. I think you are quite right, on reflection.
Soteldo came into a really bad situation. Armas was a joke. Beyond that, if Poz and/or Jozy had been mostly available, and we had been a competitive team, things could have been different.
Also yes, they are all 100% about the money. Just the same as you or I would be.
But I think the likelihood that Soteldo wouldn’t “fit” here was obviously high, and I do fear that less with Insigne.
Realistically since big money started flowing in 2014, there's be 2 and a half seasons max of strong performances. Mid-2016 to CCL 2018 and arguably first half 2020.
from what i saw yefe worked his butt off when he played...mullins and dywer in middle lol,3 -4 goals missed a couple pks and 10 assist in 24 games maybe 15 starts not bad for under 2 mil
I have to say, the more obvious road, if I was management and had been asked to invest big dollars, would be to go crazy on a U 22 strategy.
Do what NYCFC did but kick it up 5x. Spend say $25M on three studs. If there is financial distress in Europe, it'll create opportunities in this market too.
You have a shot a selling a guy for big money, which you don’t have with the Insigne/Bellotti idea.
Rather than the super team, try to build an Ajax, Dortmund, Porto, a place young studs want to come on their way to the really big time.
Its just a better recognition of who we are, what the league rules will ultimately facilitate, and what we might be able to accomplish.
(But I am fine with Insigne!)
100% agree, I wouldn’t be opposed to him staying if we were going for a dominant No. 9 but there is no place for him with Insigne. I do think with a healthy Insigne, Poz and our midfield there will be space for everyone so even a reasonably solid No 9 will excel. A great one will dominate.
max salary for u22 initiative is 612,5k so even with transfer fees its not getting anywhere near 25m
Yeah I agree with this 100%. Long term I think it is the much more sustainable approach. Insigne and co are potentially incredible, but it's an 'all eggs in one basket' approach. You have to assume Bogers don't keep the money tap on forever without return so it only takes a couple of busts before they cut the team off and if we haven't invested in youth and infrastructure we'd potentially be cut off without much to show for it. That's a worst case scenario for sure but this off season feels like a gigantic all in bet where, if it all goes well, we win big but if we lose that could be it for us as a super team for now.
Basically if they throw this kind of money this off season then we BETTER start showing a return and fast, on field and off field.
I don't think Soteldo was awful, and I do agree he came into a bad situation, especially with Covid and barely seeing Toronto. But I also don't think he was the right player. With his dribbling ability he looked like he could be another Giovinco, but he is not a natural goal scorer. And he had absolutely no vision for the final ball. I know someone will say, "but he got a lot of assists." Yeah, I don't have the numbers on me, but I think a good chunk of those were second assists where someone else payed the final ball that released the goal scorer. He was extraordinarily bad at finding those unlike, say, Pozuelo who can find them blindfolded.
i dont get it....why are so many people so paranoid that we will become dallas or colorado.we seem to have this conversation every year
This is a point everyone seems to forget.
When Drew moor got injured in 2018, our defence was in shambles. He never recovered 100% and it wasn't until Omar Gonzalez came in, that we were able to go to get our shit together and make a run to the MLS Cup finals and then finish 2nd the following year. When Omar faltered, so did the team.
AGREE 1000000% We need a commanding CB and it should be the number 1 priority. Otherwise it doesn't matter who we sign up front, we'll be tripping over our feet coming out the back and we'll be bleeding goals left right and center.
Granted this is 2019, so I defer to a more recent source https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-soccer-teams/
Our valutation isn't all that special compared to the size of our market, we SHOULD be behind only LA or NY teams and even there they split their market in 2. I see us right behind Seattle and level with Portland, neither of whom have spent like us. So no, I don't think our spending has had a dramatic impact on our valutation. And why would it? It hasn't significantly driven the metrics that would drive valuation - TV and general revenue
but I do admit, I flat out don't understand the economics of the moves we're looking at this off season so yeah honestly I'll try to worry less and just jump on the hype train. The owners clearly want to spend on the team so as a fan that's only good news for us
Problem is that you're likely to end up with two stiffs like the ones Miami paid big bucks for, got no production from, and lost all that money on than some rare sellable star like Almiron, thus why it hasn't happened often in MLS ever. Whether the failure with those two Argie players reflects badly on Miami in further recruiting from there I don't know but it can't be good and it was just a bad look all around.
There is no track record in MLS of buying and selling at an upcharge and that's not MLSE's goal anyway. It's eyes on the product and being a full on seller won't do that.
Because MLSE has always shown that they are a budget ownership group that has never spent on any of their sports teams and won't spend a few million on a soccer player because they can't handle the poor ROI. It's been proven since day one. We don't spend. There's Colorado, Dallas, Vancouver, and us being miserly. Cheap bastard teams the lot of us.
I am not scared of us becoming Dallas. I just find it amusing that some people would rather us be more like Dallas and just exist for our owners to make money to pay the QB they gave half a billion dollars to. FC Dallas is a plague to MLS and the Hunts should not be given the power they are in the league. They developed Pepi, won nothing and are gonna sell him to Germany with no intention of reinvesting a cent on the current roster.
Agree with Ensco. Pozuelo and Insigne are enough. They should be abusing the hell out of U-22 by sighing bonafide players a la Lainez.
I’m chuckling at the idea of MLSE raiding Argentina with their trucks of money.
Ever since our first DP (JdG) we have always overpaid for mid/late-prime players and had one of the 2 or 3 highest payrolls in the league. Through Frings/Koevermans, Defoe/Bradley, Altidore/Giovinco, and beyond.
This isn’t going to change.
Analyze MLSE’s corporate strategy all you want, we have a decade-plus of history to point to. Whoever we sign this window is going to follow the same pattern.
I don't think TFC is worth $650M. The Fire is the best comparable. It sold a couple of years ago for $400M. It previously last sold in 2007 for $35M It's probably been the worst run franchise in MLS, they don't own or control their stadium, but it's a bigger market with more potential than Toronto. I'd guess TFC would be worth about the same (TFC are in a smaller market but control their stadium)
I doubt sports teams values have gone up post covid, given the ongoing financial impact covid is having on sports. (I think team sales in all sports have kind of stopped. Someone can add if they know of recent control transactions in MLB or NFL, which I am somewhat blind too.)
I think the wild expansion in values of pro sports franchises over the last 15 years is closely related to similar things going on in the high end art and real estate markets, and is not correlated to how a team spends or how effective its management has been. (If any of that really mattered, the NBA Clippers would not have sold for $2B. The NBA has seen even wilder franchise price appreciation than MLS.)
Dynamo sold for $400M in June this year
Not terribly convinced any U22 strategy works. This league is not a talent finishing school and becoming one is much harder than the cheaper owners believe it is in their pipe dream of buying assets and consistently selling them on for more.
Young impactful players are rare and will be gone too soon to build around. The less impactful ones don’t equate to one marquee DP even if it’s x2.
I don't fully understand what happened in Miami but I am very wary of the South American market, for us. We are not that team and this is not that city.
I would say the U 22 signing type I would most like us to copy is Dejan Joveljic at LAG. He cost $4M out of Eintracht Frankfurt, and couldn't get into Frankfurt's lineup in part because they signed... Borre!
But Joveljic had 18 goals in 34 games on loan in the Austrian league last year. He got limited minutes at LAG because Chicharito is in front of him, so we will see next year ... but this is the U 22 player profile I would seek for TFC.... and if they all came from Italy, that would be fine.