Toronto FC fans confronted by City News reporter following vulgar on-camera remark

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Originally Posted by molenshtain

Like I've been saying on this thread, that language is a little vague. And like i said, I'm one to regularly act more ignorant and loud inside the stadium than I am outside. My mother and employer probably wouldn't be happy with me calling Giles Barnes a "cunting sack of shit" which I did at every opportunity.

But my employer can't discipline me for using colorful language that I wouldn't use in the presence of people I need to respect. Now, if I were to insert something about his race into that insult, that's fair game because that's genuine discrimination, not because he plays for the other team but because he is of a race that many TFC fans are. The same can be said If I were to direct the word "Cunt" to a woman, where that word holds more aggressive and discriminatory connotations.

When you say that lots of inappropriate yelling goes on at games I very much assume you are talking about my first example of inappropriateness, not the second. The first, while ignorant and unpleasant to some, is fair game at a sporting event and the southend especially because it's generally agreed that it's part of the price of admission, and you're not being offensive to anyone except the opposing team. The latter example of language isn't in any way shape or form appropriate at games (or in life generally) here due to it being undoubtedly more mean, vitriolic and discriminatory. The douches outside the stadium crossed that line on sunday (and it seems like from a few comments that they often did so before sunday too) and they paid the due price. The line is pretty clearly drawn in the sand.

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I have a hard time believing that most people - at their worst and caught at the wrong moment - couldn't have made themselves feel a bit foolish although perhaps not generating a similar amount of outrage as these idiots did. All it takes: once.

Today it was Giles Barnes called the c-word, tomorrow it's a few members of a women's soccer team who sat three rows behind you and twelve seats to the left who had to listen to the word cunt for 90 minutes that you inadvertently made feel inadequate. Did you call it to them? No. But I doubt if it fell on the wrong ears they'd care.

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Originally Posted by molenshtain

Like I've been saying on this thread, that language is a little vague. And like i said, I'm one to regularly act more ignorant and loud inside the stadium than I am outside. My mother and employer probably wouldn't be happy with me calling Giles Barnes a "cunting sack of shit" which I did at every opportunity.

But my employer can't discipline me for using colorful language that I wouldn't use in the presence of people I need to respect. Now, if I were to insert something about his race into that insult, that's fair game because that's genuine discrimination, not because he plays for the other team but because he is of a race that many TFC fans( and canadians, and people everywhere yada yada) are. The same can be said If I were to direct the word "Cunt" to a woman at the stadium, where that word holds more aggressive and discriminatory connotations.

When you say that lots of inappropriate yelling goes on at games I very much assume you are talking about my first example of inappropriateness, not the second. The first, while ignorant and unpleasant to some, is fair game at a sporting event and the southend especially because it's generally agreed that it's part of the price of admission, and you're not being offensive to anyone except the opposing team. The latter example of language isn't in any way shape or form appropriate at games (or in life generally) here due to it being undoubtedly more mean, vitriolic and discriminatory. The douches outside the stadium crossed that line on sunday (and it seems like from a few comments that they often did so before sunday too) and they paid the due price. The line is pretty clearly drawn in the sand.

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well said!

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Originally Posted by brad

It's not the same though. How often did you yell something inappropriate, get called out on it directly from the target, and rather than back down or apologize, continue to dig your hole deeper and deeper.

If those dudes would have owned up when called out and acted with some responsibility, this never would have happened.

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This is how I feel. She basically gave them an out to apologize or just walk away but they kept at it. Plain idiocy. She had a microphone and a cameraman in front of them and they thought this was their big time to shine. When called out they defended their positon, all while being recorded openly. Just plain idiocy lol.

I have to admit, I actually read the thread before I viewed the video and was expecting something terrible and heinous.

What I actually saw was just a couple of drunk guys making clowns of themselves, probably woke up the next day with a bad hangover and wishing it hadn't happened but hey, these things happen. But Police investigation and all this vitriol from their fellow supporters? Wow. You want to come and spend an afternoon inside an English football stadium. I'm not sure your delicate emotions could deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Fifa Ninja

I have to admit, I actually read the thread before I viewed the video and was expecting something terrible and heinous.

What I actually saw was just a couple of drunk guys making clowns of themselves, probably woke up the next day with a bad hangover and wishing it hadn't happened but hey, these things happen. But Police investigation and all this vitriol from their fellow supporters? Wow. You want to come and spend an afternoon inside an English football stadium. I'm not sure your delicate emotions could deal with it.

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lol agreed. But that doesn't mean we want that sort of "atmosphere" here of course. I've heard FAR worse in the stands at BMO than what these douchebags yelled out, but it's all about context I guess. (As many have pointed out in this thread already). Will be interesting to see what comes of all of this, and if there will be a crack-down in the stands.

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Originally Posted by MisterMacphisto

I'm really glad these complete douche-bags are getting banned, losing jobs, and whatever else woes they may be facing.

There is one constant measure of a man, and that is how they treat women. These douchebags are thee farthest thing in the world from being men. Anyone who defends them is an equal douchebag in my book. Be a fucking man. Be respectful to woman. Throw away your tinkle testicles, and become a real man.

This is not about enjoying off-colour humour, it's not about yelling some vulgarity at an opposing player, it's not about joking with girls around you know are ok with certain humour, this is a professional woman doing her job as a reporter, and sticking your douche face in the camera and yelling extreme sexual obscenities. I would love to see these idiots get booked and I would love for the message to get out to douchebags everywhere.

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Agreed. There is too much asinine behaviour that we men have been brought up to believe is acceptable. It's our responsibility to break the cycle and teach the next generations how to behave appropriately around women. The idiots in that video didn't just decide to be assholes, they learned it from somewhere. But that doesn't excuse them. I'm not sure getting charged is necessary as the public shaming and loss of employment seems like a deserving price to pay. But it might come down to making an example out of these guys, so the punishment may go a bit farther than one might expect. I talked to my gf about this. She made a good point that this is not just an issue of guys saying something disrespectful to a woman. What they said could easily be seen as threatening to a woman, and in fact it can actually feed some of the rape culture that is far too prevalent in society.

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Originally Posted by Nestease

You have been the master of stretching an argument since this thread started. You've taken a moron yelling an unfunny meme all the way to showing up at her place and stalking her while she sleeps.

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You might have noticed where I pointed out in that very post

a) I was talking about his language used matches the context of one of the most vile things going on the internet

b) he said that he was not aware of that context

c) I apologised for linking him too it


d) We both agreed to move on.

Whoa. Suggesting that this can feed a rape culture is a country mile away from what actually did happen which was a couple of guys having one too many to drink and acting dumb.

I'm not suggesting that their behavior is acceptable but it's a long way from what your suggesting. What shall we do to them next? Name and shame them? A public flogging perhaps? Tar and feather them and parade them through the streets? Put them in stocks outside the stadium and have people throw rotten fruit at them?

C'mon guys, see it for what it is or was and let it go.

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Originally Posted by Fifa Ninja

Whoa. Suggesting that this can feed a rape culture is a country mile away from what actually did happen which was a couple of guys having one too many to drink and acting dumb.

I'm not suggesting that their behavior is acceptable but it's a long way from what your suggesting. ...

C'mon guys, see it for what it is or was and let it go.

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Actually that is the suggestion of the woman who experienced it, and therefore pretty much what it is.

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Originally Posted by Fifa Ninja

I have to admit, I actually read the thread before I viewed the video and was expecting something terrible and heinous.

What I actually saw was just a couple of drunk guys making clowns of themselves, probably woke up the next day with a bad hangover and wishing it hadn't happened but hey, these things happen. But Police investigation and all this vitriol from their fellow supporters? Wow. You want to come and spend an afternoon inside an English football stadium. I'm not sure your delicate emotions could deal with it.

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This is Canada,we are spoiled here,everybody is bitching about 1st world problems,they should have know that.

As far punishment goes,it's nothing else then PR move by ML$E and Hydro One,none of them wants to talk real talk,ML$E about their worst teams records in sports history,and Hydro One about over pricing costumers and still mismanage and lose money.

This why we have over 300 posts about stupid prank and only few about how shit we played last Sunday and how in 9 years of this franchise we had only 1 COACH with previous coaching experience,and that was Preki(go figure),we are more concern about what happened outside the BMO then inside BMO Field and this is exactly what ML$E want us.

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Originally Posted by denime

This is Canada,we are spoiled here,everybody is bitching about 1st world problems,they should have know that.

As far punishment goes,it's nothing else then PR move by ML$E and Hydro One,none of them wants to talk real talk,ML$E about their worst teams records in sports history,and Hydro One about over pricing costumers and still mismanage and lose money.

This why we have over 300 posts about stupid prank and only few about how shit we played last Sunday and how in 9 years of this franchise we had only 1 COACH with previous coaching experience,and that was Preki(go figure),we are more concern about what happened outside the BMO then inside BMO Field and this is exactly what ML$E want us.

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well said

:drum:

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Originally Posted by ag futbol

I have a hard time believing that most people - at their worst and caught at the wrong moment - couldn't have made themselves feel a bit foolish although perhaps not generating a similar amount of outrage as these idiots did. All it takes: once.

Today it was Giles Barnes called the c-word, tomorrow it's a few members of a women's soccer team who sat three rows behind you and twelve seats to the left who had to listen to the word cunt for 90 minutes that you inadvertently made feel inadequate. Did you call it to them? No. But I doubt if it fell on the wrong ears they'd care.

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I don't have a problem believing that. Most decent humans don't need to delve into discrimination to laugh, to insult, to do anything, even in private moments. It's just not something that pops into my head.

Now you're second point is interesting and certainly more of a grey area.

I just recently used the word cunt in the presence of my mother to describe a male family friend who recently had been caught doing something incredibly unsavory. She asked why I needed to use that word and I said that when it's used towards men it's a word that, to me, is more angry and hateful than just calling someone an asshole. Just because of the way it sounds, I guess. She asked if I would say that about a woman and I said probably, hopefully not but that I don't think it's as harmful to say that to a woman than it is to hurl racial slurs at people of different of other ethnicity's. She asked me why that was and I said that because while men are naturally in a position of hierarchical power it wouldn't be much different than a woman calling a man a prick. She told me a story about how she was walking home late one night and she was cat-called from across the street by some guys from a makeshift frat house, and when she didn't respond she was called a bitch, a slut, a cunt. She said with that in mind, think about how it would be if the roles were reversed, if I was walking home and a bunch of girls called me a prick and an asshole and a dick or whatever. The first scenario is eminently more intimidating and degrading, and that's how words get specific connotations.

I think the thing is is that, it's not up to us (men, mainly white) to decide what is offensive. If any of the member's of this hypothetical women's team sitting behind me felt uncomfortable, I would hope to hell that they tell me, as Hunt did, because at that point I'm now fully cognizant of the fact that my language is inadvertently making someone uncomfortable, at which point I'd have to shift to other language that doesn't make a certain group of people uncomfortable and inadequate. The difference between most people, including myself, and the guys involved in the incident is the approach taken after the utterance of FHRITP. While an intensely unfunny and relatively sexist jokegiven the circumstances, it would not have been much of an issue if after being confronted by Hunt about the irritating sexism and lack of respect it shows, the guys had said you know what, you're right, it was a dumb joke and it's disrespectful by us to make you feel this way while you're working, or at all. Instead, the guy in red said that it wasn't about her, it was a joke for everyone else, and the guy in Yellow very obviously stepped further over the line with his tone of "you just don't get it 'cuz your a woman with no sense of humor" and his vibrator comment. The first guy, while viewing it selfishly, I can sort of see his point that FHRITP isn't meant to be sexist, but is about disrupting a live broadcast, which can be funny. The other guy is a fucking unsympathetic asshole.

Deciding what language is appropriate in society is a difficult and multifaceted topic. My general thoughts on it are that bar racial slurs, it's tolerable to use pretty much every one of these types of words out of the context of it's intended degrading use; calling men cunts, calling straight people (both men and women) fags, etc. In my opinion, that's how you generalize the use of those words so they're no longer so harmful to a certain sub-section of people. Many would disagree with me, and that's why it's a debate without a real definitive answer.

Anyway,I don't really know where I'm going with this. I guess I'm just thinking out loud. I don't really know where this thread is going tbh. I think MLSE did everything perfectly and haven't at all indicated during their 9 years of ownership that the massive majority of things said inside the stadium are unacceptable. These guys did something very specific and were dumb enough to get caught on camera doing it. Let this be a lesson for everyone else I guess: don't do what they did, and if you do get confronted in a similar way, concede to them knowing that you are probably not the one who get's to decide if what you say and how you say it is just a joke.

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Originally Posted by OgtheDim

You might have noticed where I pointed out in that very post

a) I was talking about his language used matches the context of one of the most vile things going on the internet

b) he said that he was not aware of that context

c) I apologised for linking him too it


d) We both agreed to move on.

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Not giving werewolf crap, especially in the context of agreement to move on and clarification that he was not aware of context.

But I think there is some truth here in terms of 'gamergate' language permeating into these boards. I mean, internet culture is a real thing that seeps into our daily interactions (I mean, heck, this is an internet forum). It's not much of a stretch to see the similarities between 'social media warriors' discussed here and 'social justice warriors' as a pejorative. This backlash against social justice movements has been alarming and I do wonder where it is emerging out of? The anonymity of the internet? People feel emboldened by the actions of others?

Ultimately, I do not think punitive responses to these behaviours are helpful in terms of addressing the issue, though I really could not care less about someone engaging in sexist behaviour. In the end of the day, power is still so very imbalanced against women. The fact that the perpetrator faced consequences is not because feminism has somehow taken hold institutionally.. there's no big feminist institution baring down on people. Indeed, much of this behaviour does not face consequences (someone even cited this happening at a Raptors game) ... instead, it was the actions of the reporter and other conscientious individuals that forced movement by MLSE etc.

I love going to games and the sport in general because of the passion and atmosphere, but let's not conflate sexist and oppressive language and behaviour with passion. We need to stamp this out of the game and if people find it difficult, we just need to be more creative. Stamping out this behaviour will also lead to a more inclusive supporter culture .. which in itself leads to more creativity in how we enjoy soccer and support the team. This is the direction I'd like us as supporters to move in.

Note: this isn't a critique of vulgarities .. the issue isn't about some sorta moralistic challenge to swearing ...

Interesting how there are more "registered users" commenting on this thread. Wonder how many of them are actual paying members who have created another account just to hide their names.

1) do I believe that these comments are appropriate ?? Hell no! If MLSE wants to ban them... Well that's their choice, thier stadiums.. Thier choice

2) don't we have a charter of rights and freedoms......freedom of speech?? Again... I think what they said was stupid but... Still his right to freedom.

3) since when can employers fire you for what you do on your own personal time?? It's bull shit..dude..hire a lawyer and sue hydro one for wrongful dismissal and sue MLSe for overserving you alcohol...they should share the blame for your stupidity.

4) so... Does this me the end of "fu(k you Vancouver " chant?? I mean I don't want to get fired for offending Vancouver fans or players.

Just my thoughts

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Originally Posted by Red CB Toronto

What this actually has to do with TFC is, what nothing. Yes it is unfortunate the dicks say this type of crap all the time on air, any station doing a live hit is taking a chance of something happening. Sometimes it can be as simple as a few swear words. But bringing this into the TFC world is something I really do not want to see. Yesterday was a good one, with us all back at BMO so lets not soil it with this.

It is important issue as no one deserves to be faced with it, but just because they had a TFC jersey on, does not make it a TFC thing, MLSE should just give this guys the attention.

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I agree here that it shouldn't reflect on TFC fans as a whole but I think non-TFC fans who know little about TFC will allow this to build a stereotype. Soccer fans are already seen as "different." We don't need bad publicity like this. A few months ago, this was done on live TV on CP24 by a Leafs fan- but no one associates Leafs fans a whole with that act. I hope we get the same treatment.

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Originally Posted by dawkins

Interesting how there are more "registered users" commenting on this thread. Wonder how many of them are actual paying members who have created another account just to hide their names.

1) do I believe that these comments are appropriate ?? Hell no! If MLSE wants to ban them... Well that's their choice, thier stadiums.. Thier choice

2) don't we have a charter of rights and freedoms......freedom of speech?? Again... I think what they said was stupid but... Still his right to freedom.

3) since when can employers fire you for what you do on your own personal time?? It's bull shit

4) so... Does this me the end of "fu(k you Vancouver " chant?? I mean I don't want to get fired for offending Vancouver fans or players.

Just my thoughts

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Zero,

Article 8: Multiple Accounts
Remember - Only ONE account per person. If Multiple accounts are detected with an IP search, please note that both your accounts will be Banned. Also, if a user has been banned, it is not permissible to make another account. Otherwise your IP Address will be banned and you won't be able to access the site altogether. Also please note that if you do have existing Multiple accounts, please let the Administrators or Moderators know ASAP. We will take the appropriate action and it will prevent your unnecessary banning.

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Originally Posted by denime

Zero,

Article 8: Multiple Accounts
Remember - Only ONE account per person. If Multiple accounts are detected with an IP search, please note that both your accounts will be Banned. Also, if a user has been banned, it is not permissible to make another account. Otherwise your IP Address will be banned and you won't be able to access the site altogether. Also please note that if you do have existing Multiple accounts, please let the Administrators or Moderators know ASAP. We will take the appropriate action and it will prevent your unnecessary banning.

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Really... No offense... But with the technology out there now...this could be bypassed very easily .

Just saying

Beer has nothing to do with it.

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Originally Posted by denime

This is Canada,we are spoiled here,everybody is bitching about 1st world problems,they should have know that.

As far punishment goes,it's nothing else then PR move by ML$E and Hydro One,none of them wants to talk real talk,ML$E about their worst teams records in sports history,and Hydro One about over pricing costumers and still mismanage and lose money.

This why we have over 300 posts about stupid prank and only few about how shit we played last Sunday and how in 9 years of this franchise we had only 1 COACH with previous coaching experience,and that was Preki(go figure),we are more concern about what happened outside the BMO then inside BMO Field and this is exactly what ML$E want us.

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:drum::flare::scarf:

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Originally Posted by dawkins

Interesting how there are more "registered users" commenting on this thread. Wonder how many of them are actual paying members who have created another account just to hide their names.

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That would be very cowardly, and unlikely... folks who have done that in the past to troll have been found via I.P. Addresses and given bans. Not saying there might not be new members who don't know they can be found, however you can easily check a registered users join date at the bottom off their name.

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Originally Posted by Ponderosa

Beer has nothing to do with it.

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Actually, as a bar manager, beer may have more to do with it thenYou think. Alcohol will not make you do something that you don't want to do, but it may make you do something that seems like a good idea...liquid courage... How many people believe that they need some sort of shot in order to walk across the bar and hit on the good looking ladies??

Again, please don't get me wrong, I don't agree with the actions of these guys.... But... Outside the stadium, freedom of speech and employers stepping in on personal times?? It was said earlier on... Slippery slope

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Originally Posted by dawkins

Really... No offense... But with the technology out there now...this could be bypassed very easily .

Just saying

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Yeah, i can't see anyone having that knowledge to do so, and then going through that trouble just to post on this forum when you have twitter. Scrolling through FifaNinja is the only one that has recently joined with 3 posts. Sorry FifaNinja... Don't see anyone else.

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Originally Posted by dawkins

Really... No offense... But with the technology out there now...this could be bypassed very easily .

Just saying

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you are correct - but trust us people aren't very bright :)

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Originally Posted by phonzo

you are correct - but trust us people aren't very bright :)

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Agreed!:hump:

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Originally Posted by dawkins

3) since when can employers fire you for what you do on your own personal time?? It's bull shit..dude..hire a lawyer and sue hydro one for wrongful dismissal

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Actually AM 640 had an employment lawyer on tonight who also happens to have a show on AM 640 on the weekends. In his practice he helps people get severance and helps people who've been wrongfully dismissed etc. He actually said that the hydro one employee can't be fired for saying what he said but also said that he would have done the same thing. The guy is basically just owed severance even in a wrongful dismissal or something to that effect.

Been hearing about this all day long. So are they members of the Ultras/Red Patch Boys?? Or just some casual drunken fans. As much as you've heard worse in European or South American league stadiums, you don't see people being rude to reporters on the air. Was waiting to see of this phenomenom would start up in Canada and lo and behold, it seems its been nipped in the bud. I don't mind yelling and screaming and saying obsenities inside thr stadium, but outside to reporters and the public is crossing the line to harassment here.

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Originally Posted by denime

This is Canada,we are spoiled here,everybody is bitching about 1st world problems,they should have know that.

As far punishment goes,it's nothing else then PR move by ML$E and Hydro One,none of them wants to talk real talk,ML$E about their worst teams records in sports history,and Hydro One about over pricing costumers and still mismanage and lose money.

This why we have over 300 posts about stupid prank and only few about how shit we played last Sunday and how in 9 years of this franchise we had only 1 COACH with previous coaching experience,and that was Preki(go figure),we are more concern about what happened outside the BMO then inside BMO Field and this is exactly what ML$E want us.

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I am glad you said it. again as big as an ass that I can be at games, I would have never done that. But that is exactly what I thought about mlse and hydro one.

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Originally Posted by NolbertoS

Been hearing about this all day long. So are they members of the Ultras/Red Patch Boys?? Or just some casual drunken fans. As much as you've heard worse in European or South American league stadiums, you don't see people being rude to reporters on the air. Was waiting to see of this phenomenom would start up in Canada and lo and behold, it seems its been nipped in the bud. I don't mind yelling and screaming and saying obsenities inside thr stadium, but outside to reporters and the public is crossing the line to harassment here.

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No connection to the Red Patch Boys.

Hydro one didn't really have a choice but to fire this douche. I'm sure there are females who work with or along side this idiot. A precedent has been set. Imagine if this guy went off at the yearly picnic or Christmas party with similar comments. They would really have a problem if women sued them for sexual harassment. It's easier to give him severance pay than to take that chance of paying out possibly 100's of thousands or millions to female coworkers.

I just saw the video again and I can swear that one of the guys was Vanney. FIRE HIM RIGHT AWAY!!!!!!!!!