Houston also had 3 games this week, with more travel. And they were 1-8 away before this game. And they were missing their top scorer.Quote:
Originally Posted by OgtheDim
I'm really sick of the excuse making. In addition to our weak defence, we also didn't create enough against a weak team.
Saw the Montreal TFC rivalry video.
Zavs & Ciman were worse tonight in that loss than Williams & Kantari were in the 3-0 playoff pasting we took in 2015. Thankfully we have better CBs around.
He really needs to be careful what he says.Quote:
Originally Posted by Auzzy
He could fast lose his credibility on this message board
Excuse? Houston were utter feces tonight made to look good by our defence because they HAVE a few MLS quality CBs. You want to blame somebody on this, blame Bez.
i thought that tfc 2 games are free.
In addition to Vanney, I'm most pissed at Ciman tonight for the defensive disaster.
I mean, we know Zavaleta isn't any good. He's an overpaid backup. But Ciman was the veteran defender out there. He needed to look at that lineup, top to bottom, and realize it's a game he's got to lead, organize, play carefully and conservatively. I felt Ciman was actually a bit better with that in other recent games: going on less crazy kamikaze runs all over the field. Tonight, when he needed to be even more careful, he was a total disaster. Sometimes he was playing so far on one side that it looked he was playing wingback, leaving Zavaleta all alone in square kilometres of space. Other times Ciman and Zavaleta were far too close together, so they could easily be bypassed by a single pass or dribble.
Other times Ciman was aggressively diving into tackles when there was nobody behind him, when he should have stayed on his feet, kept the play in front of him and tried to slow things down.
It's an excuse, because based on their 1-8 away record before tonight, obviously almost no teams have rotated their squad as disastrously against Houston. Yes our defense was weak tonight. Then why wasn't Omar out there? If he's also got an injury, it's really time to hear what the fuck this new sports science company is up to. (Were they ever hired?)Quote:
Originally Posted by OgtheDim
And if Zavs and Ciman were the best defense they could field, then they HAVE to play conservatively. (In that context, why is Vanney unable to get players to do what he wants them to do?) And then you don't leave Fraser alone in front of them. Play Fraser together with Bradley to shield the weak defense. Instead Vanney added Endoh and Chapman, who don't defend much. Plus no Delgado, who is at least decent in the high press and in intercepting & breaking up plays.
As we saw in 2018, Vanney seems incapable of coming up with a game plan to shield a weak defense.
With that starting 11 what did we really expect?
I don't expect to see a starting 11 like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Red CB Toronto
Does anyone know approx. what time it was during the game, that Houston had a possible handball in their box?
I was pretty shocked with him aswell. He looked like a headless chicken. All over the place and making ridiculous tackle attempts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Auzzy
Ciman is just going through the motions, he lacks desire and purpose.
in case anyone has not figured this out yet. garreth wheeler is a tfc shill
im still pissed....a saturday night at home after 2 wins off the break and then this shite.worst loss in 2 years,play your best players.jozy and bradley have missed like 8 to 10 games each already.they can rest in nov and dec....shame on you coach...
I have another word that springs to mind....Quote:
Originally Posted by stevep
It begins with C and ends with UNT.
Don't give his name the time of day.
I'm still absolutely seething about last night. A fucking disgrace.
I'm enjoying his calling CanPL matches.Quote:
Originally Posted by stevep
I hope that turns into something he could leave his pod/insider for. His interesting coverage of this team isn't worth the ingenuous positivity.
Of course rotation is acceptable and I agree that everyone on the pitch earned their time. But the coach still has to put a lineup together that has balance and hides players weaknesses. Putting Zavs Ciman and Fraser together exposed their weaknesses. Gonzalez, Zavs and Fraser might have worked and we might have won the game, for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by OgtheDim
Edit (after reading thread) or Bradley Fraser or Delgado Fraser
I keep waiting for Ciman to turn the corner... amazing how the outcome of a single signing can turn things.Quote:
Originally Posted by OgtheDim
__________
When the game Wednesday ended I saw at least three TFC players collapse on the field at the final whistle. The heat and humidity were high. Last night had to be as bad or worse.
What Vanney is trying to do is prevent injuries. But he doesn’t have the horses.
At the game, it looked like a 4-1-3-2 with Fraser the “1” and Oso and Mullins the “2”. That’s a strange formation given Fraser’s youth and the defending problems we have had when Gonzalez and Moor are not in the pitch. 4-2-3-1 would have made more sense with Delgado or Bradley (as above) or even Deleon beside Fraser if it had to be the players in the pitch. That formation would also put Oso in a better position to succeed where his skills are best utilized.
Vanney was very critical of the players last night. He said “no leadership” but he put a team on with a rookie keeper as Captain - that’s a statement by him that he doesn’t think any of the outfield players are leaders. The only one he could be was Oso (or possibly Deleon) and hard to run a game playing up front.
We have seen this a lot from Vanney. It’s strange. Like he has a blind spot in His own head.
Also interesting that he said the players on The field have played their way down the depth chart. And that the goals were ridiculous. I think he was referring to Ciman mostly.
The company line after was “no energy”. I don’t buy that. Given who was on the pitch, we were playing fairly well going forward - Chapman had a tidy game for example - but were completely vulnerable to the counter attack. “No defense” or “no tackling” should have been the statement.
The third goal was the killer. As Vanney said, it was ridiculous. If we don’t concede there, our goal might have made Houston stumble - a team on a bad run like that could think “here we go again”. Inexplicably bad defending.
I still think we are going to move a midfielder. Fraser and Chapman deserve and have earned minutes. There isn’t room for Osorio Delgado Deleon Bradley and Poz to all get first team minutes, let alone for Fraser and Chapman.
That’s fair but he needs to be smarter about it. For a former defender, he seems to have a very odd blind spot about setting up a defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by ensco
Also, our injuries seem to be in training. Perhaps someone needs to look at that.
I suspect that was the last time Vanney will field a B squad under similar circumstances.
Very disappointing to basically concede 3 points at home.
I don't know why people think Vanney was hiding from what happened.
https://twitter.com/joshuakloke/stat...754731526?s=21
I think Chapman had a tidy game too and did exactly what the coach expected of him. It was also a bloody useless performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyDM
It was all running to provide an outlet and quickly moving the ball on. He never bothered to look and see what the game was giving him or if he had other options to dribble his defender, shoot, or split lines with a good pass. Every time: run, receive pass, cycle ball, repeat.
This was a player that has shown he's capable of some good things on occasion. Obviously he's not going to take up the role of a Pozuelo on the team but we seem to have coached all the ambition out of him (and the rest of the supporting cast). Everyone who is not a star has been stripped down to being a robot. There needs to be at least some individual freedom to make decisions.
Not really the issue here.Quote:
Originally Posted by ensco
We've seen what a Ciman-Zavaleta pairing at CB was capable of before. To trot that out and shield it with an inexperienced DM and a positionally inept Nick DeLeon? No wonder a team that has stunk on the road and was missing one of their best attacking options cut through our lines with ease.
Vanney can call it as he sees it after the game as many times as he wants. He can make mistakes. But will he change? I'm getting to the point where i'm doubting he will. This game was thrown away by the coach making the same errors he has made in the past.
I suspect these will be the last 5 regular season games at BMO field for Greg Vanney. read the comments on twitter, the guy is hated nowQuote:
Originally Posted by ManUtd4ever
that was unacceptable, you don't get away with that, that was a massive f.u. to the fans
note: all twitter comments regarding last nights game have been erased
https://twitter.com/hashtag/tfclive?lang=en
Fraser was exposed, and there wasn’t much he could do... maybe a bit less flair and a little more hustle. Did he lose the ball a few times? Yes, but you have to expect those sorts of mistakes from him given his age and development. He also completed the most passes with an accuracy of 90% and was mostly successful on long balls.Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyDM
Even when Bradley plays he usually has Delgado to rely on to provide some defensive backup, and the results are going to be bad anytime we have a Ciman/Zavaleta pairing (Ciman honestly looked fine when he was the only CB on the pitch in a previous game, but paired with Zavaleta they’re terrible).
Defensively we were incredibly poor, and we didn’t really have a lot of disciplined defending going on despite Vanney’s career as a defender.
Shockingly enough, we were missing Delgado out there tonight. Not for his presence going forward, but for the help in midfield before the ball ends up just wandering past whatever our back line was today. Is he injured?
I thought Chapman was poor. Far too weak, always loses the ball and never wins it, too timid to get past anyone... on the wing or side he’s ineffective, and creatively through the middle he’s questionable and far too slow.
Osorio’s passing was good tonight, but the offensive bite without Jozy on the pitch absolutely vanishes. The slip and subsequent backheel on the dribble was a bit of a classic Osorio move, but the pitch seemed pretty slippery tonight and a few other players went down too.
Deleon hustled and worked hard. Endoh looked okay but has a lot of trouble with physical defenders, as does Auro. They have the odd moment where they manage to get past, but usually don’t make anything of it.
We also STILL had issues with moving forward and recycling the ball backwards or sideways.
Jozy, the Shaft and Bradley looked pretty decent after coming on, with Jozy playing playmaker and striker very well, but he can’t do it all himself. Team looked better offensively though. Mullins was a head scratcher.
Based on the decision to lineup the way Vanney did, the match was abject failure. Putting Jozy and Scufflebutt on at half show that at least Vanney noticed it was stupid, but I’m not sure how he thought he could get away with that.
The problem is that this game wasn’t entirely on the defense, who were awful, but also on the midfield, who were also awful. We played incredibly poorly and slowly, but still had virtually no reaction to Houston’s speedy counter. At the least, someone could have been brought in to strengthen up the defense before we ended up down three goals... when has TFC had recent success against teams bunkering?
Again, there’s no excuse for Vanney to have selected the squad he did tonight unless his hands were tied by injuries or squad management. Houston has been terrible away and even tonight they weren’t showing any sort of exceptional play, but we setup for failure despite knowing how they play.
I don't believe 100% blame is on Vanney.
3 games in one week and we claimed 6 points in first 2.
So he came in with a different plan clearly.
He was probably hoping game would be tied at half and then Bradley and Altidore could get some firepower going in second half.
Ciman stunk last night really bad. And because of that it rub off clearly on Zavaleta. Or maybe the other way around.
Our offense was great. It was our defense that couldn't get the ball up or defend correctly.
Also I was glad to see the team take shots, as earlier in the year it was one too many passes.
As per our poll we did at beginning of season we will be probably borderline into playoffs.
And if our top guys like pozuelo and Bradley and Altidore can have a litte rest. Than I don't mind losing. Especially with the one and done new playoff format.
Making it into playoffs is what it's about to me. We clearly aren't going to get first or second place in our conference, as our "B" team isn't strong enough
Ur, not quite. Ciman looked pretty good this week against NYRB, and has been looking better lately. Zavaleta had been better lately too.Quote:
Originally Posted by ag futbol
I don't know that the idea that they "couldn't " play together made as much obvious sense as you say. Vanney's reliance on them was only a mistake in hindsight.
Is everyone done bitching yet?
JFC... three games in 7 days in this oppressive heat and humidity. There was going to be squad rotations, last nights game goes to show us that our depth isn’t what is was like 2017 and in a salary capped league is near impossible to have. Last night showed that the following players aren’t good enough: Zavaletta, champman, ciman and Mullan. Maybe ciman can play with a better defender next to him. Champman is at best a CPL player.
A lot of the issues with the squad composition is the fault of Bez, his last year and a half everything he did was crap and now we are seeing the effects of this. Curtis needs time, by next year at this point if he hasn’t improved the squad then yes he should go as well. Vanney is doing what he can do with what is given to him. If he would have trotted out a full line up and jozy, Omar or Bradley got hurt then all hell would have broken loose. Just think about it.
Fraser needs to play with better players but yet he is no where near ready to replace Bradley. He slow reacting to plays and his passing is sporadic. No team in the league can win with all 3 DPs out. This team is really missing a proper 9 to back up
Jozy. When there is no reference point up top and a lack of creativity, TFC plays side ways with no impetus to attack.
That being said s healthy TFC is a top 3-5 team in this league and if all of the negative nancies can’t see that maybe it’s time to take up a new sport.