Matchday 3 : TFC at Real Salt Lake, Sat March 29 9:30PM EST

bottom line is that we are fourth in our conference, there are six teams below us and five of those have played an extra game. We'd be fifth in the west with a game in hand on all of them.

Rio Tinto's out of the way and we dont play RSL again,

Other teams will drop points too.

We're good. jeez.

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Originally Posted by T-boy

How would you play against RSL away? High pressure game at altitude? Keep possession as much as possible and try and out-fitness the home team?

I would have done the same as Nelson....counter attack. It didn't work - and it doesn't work for most MLS teams, and that's why RSL have been one of the best teams in the league over the last few seasons.

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Obviously a small sample size, but we've used the same approach for all 3 games, whether home or away. We somehow managed to pull it off in Seattle, and it worked for DC because they have zero attacking ability. But when the KC, LA, Columbus etc. come to town, I don't think it will work out as well.

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Originally Posted by ExiledRed

bottom line is that we are fourth in our conference, there are six teams below us and five of those have played an extra game. We'd be fifth in the west with a game in hand on all of them.

Rio Tinto's out of the way and we dont play RSL again,

Other teams will drop points too.

We're good. jeez.

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I missed your posts. I'm glad I can read them with more frequency.

Noting a number of comments about "altitude" as a factor. It's common for teams to compete within 24 hrs of arrival as that has been shown to minimize the affects.

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Originally Posted by adam1001

Obviously a small sample size, but we've used the same approach for all 3 games, whether home or away. We somehow managed to pull it off in Seattle, and it worked for DC because they have zero attacking ability. But when the KC, LA, Columbus etc. come to town, I don't think it will work out as well.

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I understand. I think the 'benefit of the doubt' I'm putting on things right now is that I think counter attacking tactics was the "sensible" option in these first season games. We know we are a week behind all other teams (a week behind fitness and match sharpness) and behind at least Seattle and RSL in terms of having a squad that really knows each other. So, letting these other teams do all the playing and countering was a good option, and worked 2 out of 3 games.

Do I think we should play this all season....no. Well, away, yes sure, but at home we should go and attack.

Really we don't know if Nelson's chosen tactic is due to circumstances or whether this is going to be "it" all season. I'm hoping the former, obviously.

4. The limits of the flat 4-4-2. Both the second and third RSL goals in their dominant 3-0 win over Toronto FC were "pulley system" goals. The pulley system is nerd-speak for playing two box-to-box midfielders (Bradley and Jeremy Hall in this one) together in central midfield, rather than one designated defensive midfielder and one designated attacking midfielder. It's supposed to work like a pulley, so that when one goes forward, the other drops back, and vice versa.
Unless the pairing is well practiced, the pulley system can cause the very problem it's supposed to solve -- namely, acres of space between the central midfield and central defense. That's the space where Javier Morales went to work in this one, and why the Reds have their first loss of the SuperClub era.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/articl...at-armchair-an


Pretty spot on. Getting Hall and Bradley up to speed will be crucial for Columbus.

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Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen

I just hope Defoe and Cesar are okay. That's all I'm worried about. A loss, I can completely get over - we were never going to have a 1.000 winning percentage.

But Defoe being out a few weeks with a hammy problem? That could be trouble.

- Scott

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You took the words out of my mouth. Yep, we lost badly. It's shitty, but it was gonna happen. But yeah, I really don't like the toll this game took on our roster. I'm a bit surprised Cesar stayed in after his collision, as well.

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Originally Posted by PopePouri

4. The limits of the flat 4-4-2. Both the second and third RSL goals in their dominant 3-0 win over Toronto FC were "pulley system" goals. The pulley system is nerd-speak for playing two box-to-box midfielders (Bradley and Jeremy Hall in this one) together in central midfield, rather than one designated defensive midfielder and one designated attacking midfielder. It's supposed to work like a pulley, so that when one goes forward, the other drops back, and vice versa.
Unless the pairing is well practiced, the pulley system can cause the very problem it's supposed to solve -- namely, acres of space between the central midfield and central defense. That's the space where Javier Morales went to work in this one, and why the Reds have their first loss of the SuperClub era.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/articl...at-armchair-an


Pretty spot on. Getting Hall and Bradley up to speed will be crucial for Columbus.

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This is a good analysis. You can see when it goes wrong (goal in Seattle...Osorio and Bradley both ahead of the ball, then Henry also goes foward then Seattle have more players attacking than we do defending). The problem is that Hall isn't a two way midfielder, and never really will be. I'm not sure how we can get over that? (and its not even Hall's fault, he's just not that type of player).

Like a .1000 win percentage, thinking that the 30+ year olds will complete the season injury free is also the stuff of dreams.

The most concerning injury from my perspective is the one to Osorio. This is the second time in two seasons that he will miss a few weeks and the kid is young. His future has upside. Crossing my fingers he recovers and this isn't a trend for him.

a) i wonder what Laba is thinking.......

b) Henry is good for giving up 3 PK's or so per season.....hopefully that was one of them.

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Originally Posted by PopePouri

4. The limits of the flat 4-4-2. Both the second and third RSL goals in their dominant 3-0 win over Toronto FC were "pulley system" goals. The pulley system is nerd-speak for playing two box-to-box midfielders (Bradley and Jeremy Hall in this one) together in central midfield, rather than one designated defensive midfielder and one designated attacking midfielder. It's supposed to work like a pulley, so that when one goes forward, the other drops back, and vice versa.
Unless the pairing is well practiced, the pulley system can cause the very problem it's supposed to solve -- namely, acres of space between the central midfield and central defense. That's the space where Javier Morales went to work in this one, and why the Reds have their first loss of the SuperClub era.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/articl...at-armchair-an


Pretty spot on. Getting Hall and Bradley up to speed will be crucial for Columbus.

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I actually laughed out loud at the idea of Hall as a B2B midfielder.

Osorio and Bradley did that well against DC and not so badly against Seattle. (considering time together)

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Originally Posted by Yohan

Normally I rewatch the game before putting up my thoughts, but it was so ugly that I have no desire to see it again.

-No brainer that RSL is going to play 4-4-2 diamond, which relies on possession and overlapping FBs to overrun opposition midfield. Nelsen's tactic of thinking RSL is vulnerable on counter is correct, esp if Wingert/Beltran get caught up the field and lack of speed of Borchers and Schuler at CB get exploited. But RSL at home is especially good at maintaining possession. So, TFC midfield basically had to deal with 5-6 RSL players in the mid, vs basically Bradley, because Hall was not in sync with Bradley and coming off an injury/first match of the season. Bloom was useless at RM, and Rey has never been good defensively.

-Poor personnel decision didn't help. Bloom and Orr both can't do shit at RM, but Nelsen insists playing one of them at RM. Jeremy Hall actually has experience at RM. Not ideal, but if you're looking to replicate Jackson as close as possible, Hall is probably the guy closest who can do what Jackson does. Which leaves Bekker with Bradley at CM, but at least that puts guys at their natural position, or at least familiar with, instead of shoehorning in someone.

-RSL at home is one of toughest team to play against, esp considering TFC's record at Rio Tinto. 6 pts out of 3 games is still better than what most of us hoped for and if TFC goes .500 by WC, I'd be satisfied. Team chemistry. Once TFC develops this, we're going to be better, as our ok players will look decent.

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Losing half of starting midfield was a big blow after 2 games but at least Jacksons absence is temporary. While at times he showed reckless play and heavy touches his contributions to build up and defensive pressure were missed. Interesting point that Hall might be his best replacement. I can't remember Halls play out wide but he definitely has the athleticism to do some of the things that make Jackson a defensive contributor.

Moving Hall out wide would have mitigated the Bloom experiment but there are still midfield depth questions all over the place! Instead of Bloom/Orr experiment it could have been the trial by fire for Bekker as starter as moving someone like Morrow into DM would still be messing with backline and the permutations get uglier from there. Thinking this through makes me feel for Nelsen who is not spoiled for choice. Farran may prove to relieve some of these midfield depth issues.

Other side note I didn't see much mention of is the cow pasture that is Rio Tinto in March! Despite the surface RSL had no issues knocking the ball about with confidence. Watching them and some of the other better sides in the league always leave me feeling positive about the quality of MLS play.

When you play as the under dog...against one of the best teams in the league...away from home... You don't start two strikers. You put Gilberto on the bench....you play with two holding/defensive mid-fielders. Then you play counter attacking football... If you are close in the last 30 minutes you might bring on another striker and go for it. It was tactically niave....maybe arrogant... Maybe the result of no depth... But when you think about it.. You are not there to entertain...you are there to get a result.

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Originally Posted by Hamilton_Red

When you play as the under dog...against one of the best teams in the league...away from home... You don't start two strikers. You put Gilberto on the bench....you play with two holding/defensive mid-fielders. ...

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You did watch us in Seattle, right?

4-5-1 requires a hold up man - that ain't Defoe. We are a 4-4-1-1 or 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 team.

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Originally Posted by PopePouri

4. The limits of the flat 4-4-2. Both the second and third RSL goals in their dominant 3-0 win over Toronto FC were "pulley system" goals. The pulley system is nerd-speak for playing two box-to-box midfielders (Bradley and Jeremy Hall in this one) together in central midfield, rather than one designated defensive midfielder and one designated attacking midfielder. It's supposed to work like a pulley, so that when one goes forward, the other drops back, and vice versa.
Unless the pairing is well practiced, the pulley system can cause the very problem it's supposed to solve -- namely, acres of space between the central midfield and central defense. That's the space where Javier Morales went to work in this one, and why the Reds have their first loss of the SuperClub era.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/articl...at-armchair-an


Pretty spot on. Getting Hall and Bradley up to speed will be crucial for Columbus.

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Can't disagree. Lack of familiarity is the achilles heel of this squad.

Another issue relates to possession. A counter-attacking team can often yield possession because that isn't their game. However, playing at altitude and chasing the ball is not a good idea, you need to have possession to survive altitude. That is why, although counter-attacking teams like LA have done well in the league, RSL is a possession-based team. (Possession is also why RSL is the one team that had a reasonable chance of winning the CCL a few years ago, possession is key when playing Mexican teams).

If I'm Nelsen I'm playing a double pivot against Columbus because Higuain is just as dangerous as Moralez. Bradley and Hall need to sit a lot deeper.

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Originally Posted by gate7

a) i wonder what Laba is thinking.......

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"Wow Bradley is a good player"

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Originally Posted by redisthenewblk

My last thought: Does anybody know why they waiting until Friday evening to fly into Utah? Had they flown in on Wednesday like they did in Seattle they would have had time to acclimatize to the altitude, the time change, the atmosphere etc. While not an excuse, they just seemed a bit squirrely.


-Deanna

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As some people have said, you cannot acclimate to altitude in a short term. In order to acclimate properly to altitude, you need to spend weeks at that altitude (in order for your body to respond, and create more red blood cells to transport oxygen). So, either you go there 2 weeks in advance (ignoring the whole game a week ago) or you go right before (so you can continue to train at low altitude, which is more beneficial). Basically, TFC did the right thing.

I was nowhere near being on the MLS hype train or anything and I didn't expect us to win every game for sure but I did expect us to be competitive in games and I hated seeing us chase the ball around on Saturday and constantly kicking it away without purpose. That game on the weekend brought back too many bad memories and still isn't sitting well with me this morning. I know RSL is a good team but damn....really exposed our depth problem.

I did not see altitude affecting our game.
I saw Nelsen tactical errors, and teams' inability to enjoy possession.
Both Bradley and Defoe commented on possession as well.

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Originally Posted by Oldtimer

Can't disagree. Lack of familiarity is the achilles heel of this squad.

Another issue relates to possession. A counter-attacking team can often yield possession because that isn't their game. However, playing at altitude and chasing the ball is not a good idea, you need to have possession to survive altitude. That is why, although counter-attacking teams like LA have done well in the league, RSL is a possession-based team. (Possession is also why RSL is the one team that had a reasonable chance of winning the CCL a few years ago, possession is key when playing Mexican teams).

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Interesting point and that was another thing I was reflecting on after the game. What will it take for MLS to get over the hump against the Mexican sides? RSL showed good tactics and the technical ability to execute on it well. Obviously bigger budget would help compete but the other key is the tactical capability. Agree that RSLs style may be the best representation of an MLS side that can overcome Mexican Liga sides.

As for TFC making adjustments to counter I think they were severely limited having lost the 2 starting midfielders heading in to the game. Trying to flood the midfield was just not something team depth was going to support.

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Originally Posted by Steve

As some people have said, you cannot acclimate to altitude in a short term. In order to acclimate properly to altitude, you need to spend weeks at that altitude (in order for your body to respond, and create more red blood cells to transport oxygen). So, either you go there 2 weeks in advance (ignoring the whole game a week ago) or you go right before (so you can continue to train at low altitude, which is more beneficial). Basically, TFC did the right thing.

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Thanks. I know very little about playing at altitude - and frankly I'm glad it isn't something we'll have to deal with very much.

That was just crap.!
Start again and see if they can get it right.
I did not see the desire to win that will be needed this season.
Salt lake took us apart at will.
They will need to be 100% better next week just to tie Columbus.:hump:

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Originally Posted by Yohan

DeRo simply doesn't have the stamina or speed anymore, and he rarely puts in effort defensively. Bekker can't handle pressure and has poor work rate as well. Playing either of them means Bradley has to do most of work defensively, and limits him offensively (which is critical to TFC attack right now)

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I agree with you on this...which pretty much eliminates all of our options except Hall. Hall was just as invisible as the wingers on Saturday. The lesser of all evils, I think I would prefer a DeRo start in the middle at Columbus with a Bekker sub in the second half. Yes DeRo is looking slow these days, but he still has the game smarts. So maybe he'll be able to use whatever energy he has intelligently.

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Originally Posted by ag futbol

Get used to the diving, it's tactical and it unfortunately works. Other teams have already complained about the physicality of our play, this is their way of drawing attention to it. Another one or those things where real refs could clean it up if MLS was interested.

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I'm generally used to the diving although it still bothers me, and I do wish we had some half decent refs that could/would do something to control it. However, I thought RSL was particularly ridiculous in this game - it was embarrassing. Interesting that we're getting a reputation as the big tough boys. I wonder how many other teams are going to use the this "delicate flower" type of strategy on us going forward.

Not too bothered about the match - I didn't expect much going in, we've never won at Rio Tinto, and we were going to drop 3 points sometime. I'm more worried about the status of Defoe. And the news surrounding Osorio certainly isn't good either. I think we can take at least a point from Columbus if the players come out with a sense of purpose and learn from their mistakes. If certain results on the weekend showed us anything, it's that this is still a league where any team can beat any other team on a given day. So I don't think taking 3 points in Columbus is entirely out of the question. It will be tough, granted.

Wasn't expecting much from Saturday.

We showed the style that Nelsen wants to play in the midfield will only work with quality players that can pull off the pulley system that Osorio and Bradley implemented for the first two games.

Bloom in the midfield was a tactical mistake. He looked a lot better when he was put back to RB.

I think we would have had a better chance of keeping it close if DeRo started in mid with Bekker. Belker and Bradley with DeRo and Rey on the wings was probably a better idea then experimenting with Bloom.

Orr was a lost cause in Salt Lake. He was consitantly out of position and beat in 1v1 situations.

Ill chalk this up to a learning situation and hope they understand what they did wrong and move on.

Going into Columbus isn't going to be easy either. Hopefully they see that they can make changes to solidify the midfield and hopefully plug up the KKKrews attack.

Interesting stat here:

We have the worst pass completion percentage in the league. We have misplaced 250 of 810 passes - for a pass completion percentage of 69.1%. That is a not a good indication at all.

EDIT: this is stat encompasses all 3 of our games, not just RSL

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Originally Posted by Joe Kool

I was nowhere near being on the MLS hype train or anything and I didn't expect us to win every game for sure but I did expect us to be competitive in games and I hated seeing us chase the ball around on Saturday and constantly kicking it away without purpose. That game on the weekend brought back too many bad memories and still isn't sitting well with me this morning. I know RSL is a good team but damn....really exposed our depth problem.

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Chasing the ball… or lack of possession… really puts a strain on fitness. With at least 4 of the 10 key players in their 30's (Caldwell, Orr, Defoe, DeRo) I can't see this being an approach that leads to long term success.

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Originally Posted by brad

Interesting stat here:

We have the worst pass completion percentage in the league. We have misplaced 250 of 810 passes - for a pass completion percentage of 69.1%. That is a not a good indication at all.

EDIT: this is stat encompasses all 3 of our games, not just RSL

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Not surprised, since fair share of our "passing" is performed by out of options Ds, booting the ball up to relieve the pressure. There is very little possession is practised at the club.