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bottom line - if you have to choose: Winter, De Klerk and the players or Paul Bierne, Tommy Anselmi, and Earl Cochrane (no pun required). Make your stand - Who the hell do you get rid of? It seems simple to me, but of course there really are not any easy answers....
There should have been an all of the above option.
All four ought to be fired, but this either/or between Winter and management is just more bullshit to try and let Winter off the hook.
The management sucks, but Winter is 0 and fucking 8.
Yeah, cause you know, not wanting to fire Winter right now means you think he has no responsibility. :rolleyes5:Quote:
Originally Posted by Just One Man
^ Yes, that's it. Sure, big changes need to be made but that will have to wait until the sale is sorted out. On the menatime we're setting every futility eecord in the league.
It's time for this team to stop talking nonsense about, "affecting the way the game is played in North America," and just start playing the game.
It's time for an experienced guy to run the team, just to stop the bleeding. Pull someone out of retirement just to finish the season and try to make the team slightly less embarrassing.
It can't be all 4 at once though. That would mean that the Board made that decision and that would leave all 4 spots vacant at the same time. One has to come before the other.
So, you have to choose:
1. Let Anselmi fire Winter and bring in his replacement. The pro- there might be an improvement in results. The con- the new guy inherits the same mess as Winter had and the team is still fundamentally broke. We are trusting Anselmi to ensure that this the 5th pick.. no... 6th... no wait... 7th pick is the real winner
2. Remove Anselmi (et al) and defer the decision on Winter. The pro- the new leadership can select its course of action and bring in their managers to implement it. The con- there is going to be a period where Winter/Mariner have no real check and balance. Results will likely not improve over 2012 while the executive search continues.
It's a logical fallacy that these options in the poll are the only two choices.
Winter needs to go.
They need to clean house at TFC and get rid of Anselmi and Cochrane. I could care less if they get rid of Paul B, he has nothing to do with the product on the pitch BUT when they bring in a real team president that does not answer to Uncle Tom and only to the board, Paul needs to report to him not the board.
That's the best thing for this team.
So Winter goes first.
New coach comes in.
Then Anselmi and Cochrane go. New president comes in.
What happens to new coach?
Is a possible 8th coach (after Winter's replacement) really the best thing for this team?
How wouldn't it be? What on earth are you clinging to here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie
This is the worst team to ever start an MLS season. EVER.
Doing whatever needs to be done to change that is the best thing for this team.
If there is a wholesale house cleaning of all management (which there fucking wont be, so you all ought to just drop this pipe dream), do you think the potential new coach is going to look at the organization and say "I don't know, your last management team wasn't very successful. Sorry, I wont take the job".
You get rid of management, then it is a clean slate. Expansion all over again.
Management isn't going anywhere though, so get fucking used to it and start calling for the head of the guy who has done a worse job than any one of his much maligned predecessors; hell, the guy who has done a worse job than anyone ever in this league.
This is not complicated!
:banghead:
Get rid of everyone. Clean house.
Anselmi, Beirne, Winter, the whole lot.
So we run the club now?Quote:
Originally Posted by tiberius
There is no way a complete restructuring will happen. The new coach will be someone from within the club who will have different ideas tactically (I hope). If he does well who knows if new management will keep him. If not we'll have an 8th coach. Such is life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie
What the supporters need to do now is make noise like you guys did during the season ticket rise two years back. There will probably be new owners in a few months and they'll be making decisions on execs. This Winter fiasco is a result of the PB/TA brain trust. Those two need to go. As a big Leafs and Raptors fan I don't think my heart could take Anselmi getting promoted. The guy that made the decision of hiring Mo and Winter running actual NA sports franchises is scary, scarier than the current nitwits. I also don't think our clubs circus management structure is a sign of incompetence, but worse. Anselmi and PB effectively put 4 guys between them and the results instead of one. Buffers. Instead of getting us North American management, they went and signed a European coach with zero senior experience. They didn't actually care about the results, they were thinking about all the marketing gimmicks, all the silly notebooks with X's and O's they can send us to keep us quiet. Shekshy voetbal. We were making an even bigger mistake than LA did with Gullit (which is so well documented and laid out for all to see) and the entire league was quietly pointing and snickering.
Paul Beirne is just as clueless when it comes to managing the off-the-pitch side of football. Every club in the league (except Dallas, and maybe New England) have seen a huge increase in supporter quality. They followed the Chicago model that was there for us to emulate. Go back and read the history. U-Sector had the right idea, behind the net in 115. Paul Beirne cared about the cameras, not the quality of the support 5-10 years down the road, and forced all the supporters in the corner they're in today. No room for growth, everyone is in separate sections, supporters section with thousands of seats when in fact there are only a couple hundred 90 minute all out supporters that need to be grouped in one area, so that they can grow out and attract those thousands. Our peers as supporter groups are in FC Dallas and New England (OK, maybe not that bad, but ironically we aren't much better than Columbus, Nordecke makes 112-113 look silly on a good day). Think about that. Because if you think we're up there with the Portlands and Seattles of this league you're still living in the egocentric 2007 days. The hugely insulting decision to bring Liverpool (and giving them a supporters section, home colors, and charging us $60 for SS tickets) is the rotten cherry on top of the shitcake.
Don't need to expand much on Cochrane. He went from reserving hotels and cars for the CSA to deciding an MLS club's draft strategy overnight, all because he can keep a secret and is a good guy to shoot the shit with. Cronyism 101.
A football club is a triumvirate. Management, players, and supporters. All equally important. All need football minds to succeed. The supporters need to let the new owners know from now the problems with this club lie at the top and that these people need to go, not get promoted. Because like I said, god help my battered psyche if Anselmi is running the Leafs and the Raps.
How is Paul Mariner safe?
The answer is new ownership focused on running a winning soccer organization .... While mlse runs a soccer team in this town we will not have anything to proud of....
I would buy shares! How could we possibly do worst than this! BTW the poll is more about the order of doing things, not an attempt to preserve Winter for the long term...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat
Yes I see that. And you don't need to lump the group into one opinion. Just like I wouldn't lump all Users into one opinion. People will differ on what road the team should take.Quote:
Originally Posted by tiberius
It's a chicken before the egg problem Pookie. It's not ideal but you also can't sit there and wait for the ideal circumstances to make moves. It may never come and then what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie
im wearing my jays hat next game
LETS GO BLUE JAYS!!!
You won't be alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by C.Ronaldo
There were those doing that yesterday. I understand your frustration but it's not very original.
No all of the above option makes this a worthless poll.
Interesting thread. MLSE is making easy money on TFC. Despite the poor walk up crowd, and season ticket holders weeding their lawns instead of visiting the park, they are earning buckets of easy money from the near 80 percent fully paid BMO. How many mls clubs can claim that? If everybody stayed home the rest of the season they would still be making a profit. So how is this a recipe for firing the head office? This organization has made billions during the time the leafs have been mediocre, those condos, the rogers centre were paid for with the money and misery of forlorn toronto fans. I fully support sending the entire mlse office to pasture, but it is naive at best to think this will ever happen. The best thing you guys at RPB can do is simply turn your backs on the game...or force the players to remove their shirts and play in their underwear or somehting. The predictable will happen: This october a new field boss will be hired with promises of success, and you will find out his name after you sign your 2013 ticket renewals.Quote:
Originally Posted by TFCRegina
Based on TFC's current deplorable record, no one is without blame. However, I still think Mariner has done an adequate job recruiting talent since he was hired. The club has been mismanaged from a tactical standpoint and underachieved as a result. That is an indictment of the coaching staff.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimiv
Get rid of 4-3-3, and counter attack at home.
Bingo. Scorch the earth.Quote:
Originally Posted by AL-MO
I agree though I would add that in addition to the chicken and the egg, there is a coyote in this little hen house.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roogsy
The chicken and egg is Winter or Anselmi, who goes first to improve performance?
The coyote is the problem that no one seems to be addressing and left unchecked, it will eat both the chicken and the egg.
Anselmi has price gouged his greedy fingers to a point where the franchise is threatened. To compensate for raising ticket prices, he gave us DPs. This year, 3/4 of our $8M payroll is tied up in 1 less than useful and 2 oft-injured contributors. This has resulted in a roster that is built around inexpensive youth with the idea that these DPs would fill the gap. The problem is that when they are hurt, we have inexpensive and inexperienced youth (Henry, Morgan, Silva, Lambe, Plata (sub) yesterday)... nearly 40% of the starting roster with less than a 1yr of MLS experience.
We have the most expensive tickets in the league. Attendance is no where near capacity and while they think winning cures all, individuals can't afford the corporate pricing structure they have created. But they need the price point in order to offset their quick-fix/band aid spends on DPs.
A fundamental change to the way the team is built is necessary in order to bring the team back to the fans in a way that is affordable and fair.
I propose to change the title from the 3 wise men to the three stooges.
Other then that great poll, and fire the 3 stooges!
good point - I will get rid of the lumping together bit...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat
I have been a "keep Winter and allow him to build" etc etc etc from the start of this dismal season...
I honestly thought that it was best to allow him to seed the roots with our club and implement the football culture he speaks of...
I honestly thought it was best to ride out the storm, not be rash or make a major decision too quickly...
I honestly think I am WRONG.. :(
Seeing Ryan Johnson have a screaming match with Winter on the sidelines during a game, seeing Frings storm off the pitch and throw the arm band down, seeing the losses pile up, seeing the frustration grow, seeing the disaster get worse and worse - time for something to change...
Our ownership will not change - time for those in charge of the football club to change...
I am seriously considering downgrading my season tickets. I don't think I'll ever give them up (which is part of the problem I know) but I'm thinking taking my $2000 down to a single ticket for $500 approx... And I know, this is it for spending $$$ at BMO - why give them my hard earned money for this...
They need to clean house, and start from scratch, yet again... Sad, but I think unfortunately true...
This really sucks :(
The most intelligent thing I heard yesterday was a friend who said:
"Culture? You want to bring culture to this club with a system? What about a culture of winning? Is that not important? Will kids want to grow up and play soccer for this club when this is what they see? You have to wonder about the damage to the game this club is doing by being so incompetent. "
Can't say I disagree with him.
Yeah, I don't get why people are getting up in arms over Paul B. The guy has zero input on how the team plays. I'm not even sure if getting rid of Cochrane would have a big impact either, but if you are going to replace Tom A the next guy that comes along will probably want to pick his own team director.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roogsy