Is it time to scrap the 3-5-2?

Our defensive back line is not a weakness... as long as we don't play with 3 CB's.

If we play with a traditional back 4 i'm pretty confident with Mavinga and Moor in the middle and Van der Weil/Auro on the right and Morrow/Morgan on the left. I think Zavaleta is a back up quality player and should not be starting.

Morrow-Moor-Mavinga-Van Der Weil

This means no Hagglund or Zavaleta. In terms of quality, both are realistically outside our top 15 players.

I actually like Hagglund btw, but he will need to prove him self all over again; in an ever changing and rapidly forward moving league. He does not want to get Mark Bloom'd.

I made a list of our top 15 players ranked 1-15 in terms of order of importance. Hagglund and Zavs did not make the cut.

Other notes... Delgado is important. Delgado playing well is important.

If all is healthy I would like to see this given a shot:

------Aketxe-Altidore-Giovinco
-----Delgado-Bradley-Vazquez
Morrow-Mavinga-Moor-Van Der Weil

We're way too good with the 3-5-2. Scrap no. Adjust to something else as tactics require, sure.

We've had good and bad performances with both formations this year.

It's too early to make sweeping judgments. If you're looking for a cause of our lackluster league performances, look no further than CCL. If my count is correct, MLS teams that have competed in CCL have together collected 4 points out of a possible 18 on the MLS matchday of the same week.

We won plenty of double-game week matches last year, but those were after the midway point in the season where we had guys up to full fitness and everyone integrated. We're still working that out, and coupled with the extra minutes of CCL it hasn't produced great results. But we'll get there.

Vanney will stay on his toes tactically as usual. We'll settle into one formation primarily but we'll break out the other (or others) when needed. We played the 3-5-2 for 90% of last year then thumped Seattle in the final in a 4-4-2 diamond because it was the better option and Vanney had made sure that option was ready. Expect more of the same.

Suggest this be retitled as “The 2018 Formation Thread” or similar

Defoe has a point. I agree with him, given the signings and the showing so far of Oso and Delgado, we are currently not getting our best XI out there in a 3-5-2

Morrow not nearly as dangerous going forward in a 4 man back line, however.

Even though we're overloaded with midfield talent, we are still completely reliant on fullbacks for width. The diamond midfield still relies on width from the fullbacks, but when they push up Bradley has to drop back to cover and the shape morphs into almost a 3 in the back but with Bradley in defense instead of midfield and we lose dominance. IMO the only way to go 4 at the back without sacrificing width or midfield dominance is to play with real wingers. I wouldn't mind seeing the 4-3-3 that Defoe proposes in the OP. A 4-2-3-1 with Bradley and Delgado at the base and Giovinco, Vazquez, and Aketxe ahead interchanging positions would also be something to see

Play whatever is necessary to win the game at hand.

Tigres was the 3-5-2

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Originally Posted by Ajax TFC

Even though we're overloaded with midfield talent, we are still completely reliant on fullbacks for width. The diamond midfield still relies on width from the fullbacks, but when they push up Bradley has to drop back to cover and the shape morphs into almost a 3 in the back but with Bradley in defense instead of midfield and we lose dominance.

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This is my feeling as well.

3 in the back with *both* Zav and Haggs is not great, but with Mavinga in I can live with either of the two in the other side (especially as vdW gets up to MLS speed).

I think another Mavinga should be Bez' next target.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Defoe

Our defensive back line is not a weakness... as long as we don't play with 3 CB's.

If we play with a traditional back 4 i'm pretty confident with Mavinga and Moor in the middle and Van der Weil/Auro on the right and Morrow/Morgan on the left. I think Zavaleta is a back up quality player and should not be starting.

Morrow-Moor-Mavinga-Van Der Weil

This means no Hagglund or Zavaleta. In terms of quality, both are realistically outside our top 15 players.

I actually like Hagglund btw, but he will need to prove him self all over again; in an ever changing and rapidly forward moving league. He does not want to get Mark Bloom'd.

I made a list of our top 15 players ranked 1-15 in terms of order of importance. Hagglund and Zavs did not make the cut.

Other notes... Delgado is important. Delgado playing well is important.

If all is healthy I would like to see this given a shot:

------Aketxe-Altidore-Giovinco
-----Delgado-Bradley-Vazquez
Morrow-Mavinga-Moor-Van Der Weil

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Your name is Defoe. You get no say.... lol just kidding hahaha

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Originally Posted by paul-collins

This is my feeling as well.

3 in the back with *both* Zav and Haggs is not great, but with Mavinga in I can live with either of the two in the other side (especially as vdW gets up to MLS speed).

I think another Mavinga should be Bez' next target.

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this is exactly what I wanted to post just about word for word....

the 4-2-3-1 that Ajax TFC suggested would look good as well imo, if we ever need to go 4 at the back.....

Is that Comic Sans? In Italics?

Defoe I can forgive

Comic Sans - Never

g:D

Great thread. Carry on.

:scarf:

While getting your best 11 players out there seems intuitive, I don't think it's a realistic way to put together your starting line up. It doesn't matter if you have your most talented 11 out there if they're not in their best positions. In your 433 example you move Giovinco out to right wing. Giovinco is easily TFC's best, most dangerous, and most important player. Every formation should be predicated on putting him in the best position to influence the game. That position is as a central forward. We saw early in Giovinco's time here where he was tried on the left wing and as an attacking midfielder and he just wasn't as dangerous.

The thing is, Jozy's best position is as a central forward as well, and he's TFC's second most dangerous player (all due respect to VV). So, if you do want to play them both as center forwards then you can't play a 433 or 4231. I believe that getting those two in their best positions is more important than getting guys like Aketxe, VV, and Delgado all on the field at the same time (which you could do in a 442 anyway). You need to play some variants of a 442 or 352. Certainly you can argue that a 442 is better for TFC than a 352, and I do think at times is absolutely the better choice, but I also think that there are times where the 352 is absolutely the better choice. I would have no problem with the argument that the 442 should be played more often than the 352, but I don't buy that the 352 should be scrapped just because Aketxe (or whatever mid you want to use) has a higher talent level than Hagglund or Zavaleta when it means our absolute best players become less effective.

NO.

It is not time to scrap the 3-5-2.

Lets wait until we finish the CL run before we start the panic.

We are the best team in the MLS, we are just distracted and not running on all cylinders yet.

Makes no sense to scrap anything yet.

Any good team must be flexible to use well enough 2-3 configurations, depending on the sum of the game conditions, the opponent, the absences from the team, the importance of the match, the form of the available players (not in this order of importance).

The 4-4-2 diamond we alternatively play is essentially a 3-5-2 in waiting

Crazy...352 is having our best players out there.. Its just Vanney playing them accordingly. GvW isn't the RWb that we hoped he would be. He's probably the RCB we never planned for. From what we've seen he'll never confidently take on the RB or go 1v1, he's a traditional RB, in the likes of Beita(oops did I say that) .... Auro was our unintentional man, who's up and down, makes the challenge in the defensive third, while having the 1v1 ability to draw out defenders to create space or make plays for the problem boys (Jozy and Gio). TFC need to play this:

--------GvW-------Moor--------Mavinga------
Auro --------------------------------------------Morrow
---------------------Bradley------------------------------
------------Vasquez----Osorio---------------------

-----------------Gio--------Jozy--------------------------

Until I see this, I'll hold my tongue on scrapping the 352. Because that above is our best 10.

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Originally Posted by Shway

Crazy...352 is having our best players out there.. Its just Vanney playing them accordingly. GvW isn't the RWb that we hoped he would be. He's probably the RCB we never planned for. From what we've seen he'll never confidently take on the RB or go 1v1, he's a traditional RB, in the likes of Beita(oops did I say that) .... Auro was our unintentional man, who's up and down, makes the challenge in the defensive third, while having the 1v1 ability to draw out defenders to create space or make plays for the problem boys (Jozy and Gio). TFC need to play this:

--------GvW-------Moor--------Mavinga------
Auro --------------------------------------------Morrow
---------------------Bradley------------------------------
------------Vasquez----Osorio---------------------

-----------------Gio--------Jozy--------------------------

Until I see this, I'll hold my tongue on scrapping the 352. Because that above is our best 10.

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I'll give GvW a bit more time, but I tend to agree. Auro is already the mavinga signing of 2018

GWV isn't match fit at all and he also hasn't played a lot these past two years, I'd give him until the summer.

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Originally Posted by Richard

GWV isn't match fit at all and he also hasn't played a lot these past two years, I'd give him until the summer.

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From what I have seen GVW has improved with each game and will be much better given some more games, I think we have to deal with the donkey Zavaleta, I know he is a so called serviceable CB in MLS, but fuck is so slow and clumsy with the ball at his feet. Now on to Altidore, fuck he is gassed by the 60th minute and doesn't seem match fit or just playing for the call and not playing for the ball, it is embarrassing to see him flop like he does.

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Originally Posted by Derko

From what I have seen GVW has improved with each game and will be much better given some more games, I think we have to deal with the donkey Zavaleta, I know he is a so called serviceable CB in MLS, but fuck is so slow and clumsy with the ball at his feet. Now on to Altidore, fuck he is gassed by the 60th minute and doesn't seem match fit or just playing for the call and not playing for the ball, it is embarrassing to see him flop like he does.

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A) who cares if Altidore looks for calls? I sure as shit don't. He's earned a lifetime of goodwill from us. He could pee on bitchy the hawk and I'd still probably give him the benefit of the doubt.

B) let's nip this in the bud before it becomes a theme for this season; Zavaleta isn't a "donkey" or an "average MLS player" (not just quoting you but the similar sentiment laid out by others). He has shortcomings, sure. So would any player who switched from being a successful poacher to a CB at the age of 23. He is, however, very good at winning tackles, keeping in position and overall just playing his role in the system.

Because I have no life I went back and calculated the total amount of goals each team has conceded over the last two seasons. He's started in 50 games including the playoffs over that span and we've conceded the lowest amount of goals by far in the conference and second league-wide only to a frankly ridiculous SKC defensive unit. No player who's been part of this defensive unit over that stretch can reasonably be described as many do Zavaleta on here. He's a very good MLS CB who has a proven track record of success. Just because picking a new punching bag every season was common in the dark years it doesn't mean we need to carry that with us now that things are better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trane

NO.

It is not time to scrap the 3-5-2.

Lets wait until we finish the CL run before we start the panic.

We are the best team in the MLS, we are just distracted and not running on all cylinders yet.

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I think we've shown enough times that simply pressuring Bradley as the main outlet valve isn't enough to shut it down as our play is too quick; it looked exposed in our last game because of tired legs.

My bigger concern is that Bradley refuses to rest, even when his play is markedly declining, and we have no adequate backup. Hasler maybe? Certainly I don't expect a rookie to handle defensive midfield duties.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by molenshtain

A) who cares if Altidore looks for calls? I sure as shit don't. He's earned a lifetime of goodwill from us. He could pee on bitchy the hawk and I'd still probably give him the benefit of the doubt.

B) let's nip this in the bud before it becomes a theme for this season; Zavaleta isn't a "donkey" or an "average MLS player" (not just quoting you but the similar sentiment laid out by others). He has shortcomings, sure. So would any player who switched from being a successful poacher to a CB at the age of 23. He is, however, very good at winning tackles, keeping in position and overall just playing his role in the system.

Because I have no life I went back and calculated the total amount of goals each team has conceded over the last two seasons. He's started in 50 games including the playoffs over that span and we've conceded the lowest amount of goals by far in the conference and second league-wide only to a frankly ridiculous SKC defensive unit. No player who's been part of this defensive unit over that stretch can reasonably be described as many do Zavaleta on here. He's a very good MLS CB who has a proven track record of success. Just because picking a new punching bag every season was common in the dark years it doesn't mean we need to carry that with us now that things are better.

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Okay that's just how I perceive it, I am sure it will shake out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Derko

From what I have seen GVW has improved with each game and will be much better given some more games, I think we have to deal with the donkey Zavaleta, I know he is a so called serviceable CB in MLS, but fuck is so slow and clumsy with the ball at his feet. Now on to Altidore, fuck he is gassed by the 60th minute and doesn't seem match fit or just playing for the call and not playing for the ball, it is embarrassing to see him flop like he does.

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Altidore gives his all for this team, and is the best CF in the MLS ( afer Ibra-if Ibra is fit). I am embarrassed that we still have supporters that an embarrassed by our players looking for advantages, particularly when our guys get hacked all the time.

AND I STILL DO NOT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THE MLS, it is too early and we have the CL to deal with. Once that is other, I will start caring as only then will it start being important.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jloome

I think we've shown enough times that simply pressuring Bradley as the main outlet valve isn't enough to shut it down as our play is too quick; it looked exposed in our last game because of tired legs.

My bigger concern is that Bradley refuses to rest, even when his play is markedly declining, and we have no adequate backup. Hasler maybe? Certainly I don't expect a rookie to handle defensive midfield duties.

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Actually that is my concern as well, we need someone fresh in that role, and someone should be starting to slowly take over now before Bradley is done. He is the key to making our system work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shway

Crazy...352 is having our best players out there.. Its just Vanney playing them accordingly. GvW isn't the RWb that we hoped he would be. He's probably the RCB we never planned for. From what we've seen he'll never confidently take on the RB or go 1v1, he's a traditional RB, in the likes of Beita(oops did I say that) .... Auro was our unintentional man, who's up and down, makes the challenge in the defensive third, while having the 1v1 ability to draw out defenders to create space or make plays for the problem boys (Jozy and Gio). TFC need to play this:

--------GvW-------Moor--------Mavinga------
Auro --------------------------------------------Morrow
---------------------Bradley------------------------------
------------Vasquez----Osorio---------------------

-----------------Gio--------Jozy--------------------------

Until I see this, I'll hold my tongue on scrapping the 352. Because that above is our best 10.

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I'm ok with this if you switch Osorio for Delgado. Aketxe is the super sub for Vazquez, Altidore or Giovincio.

I really want to find a way to get Akextke in the starting 11; but if he's best utilized as a LW, Striker, CF, or CAM then he's not going to start over Victor, Altidore or Gio. For that reason I would have Delgado in over Ager, and Oso as well

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Originally Posted by Defoe

I'm ok with this if you switch Osorio for Delgado.

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JFC :facepalm:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paul-collins

JFC :facepalm:

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Delgado has tremendous work rate, very defensively responsible. Not sure why this warrants this reaction. :facepalm:

Half way through last year Delgado was definitely playing at a higher level than Osorio, I was fine with Oso on the bench then because he had some mediocre games. Since MLS Cup playoffs though Osorio has taken it to another level, finally realizing the exciting potential we saw in him 5 years ago. He is the more key player now.

I believe you can never rule out a formation.

I think the problem with 4-3-3 for TFC (posters version) is that you are exposed out wide, teams would just pound Vazquez defensively for instance. And it would leave Bradley exposed.

I also really like the formation LAFC is using today to dominate Galaxy.

This is how it could look for TFC

-----------------Altidore
--------Aketxe-Vazquez-Giovinco
------------Delgado-Bradley
Morrow-Mavinga-Van-Der Weil-Auro Jr.

Oso interchangeable with Delgado. Moor could also start in place of VDW if you want someone with experience controlling the back line

If there's truth to the shopping of Jozy over the winter to Mexican clubs then I think they may have wanted to move to a 4-3-3.

DP Winger - Giovinco - Aketxe
Vazquez - Oso/Delgado
Bradley
Morrow - Mavinga - Moor - Auro/VDW
Bono

That line-up looks really strong depending what kind of player you'd replace Jozy with

Could even play Seba as a false 9

Quote:

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Originally Posted by portu

If there's truth to the shopping of Jozy over the winter to Mexican clubs then I think they may have wanted to move to a 4-3-3.

DP Winger - Giovinco - Aketxe
Vazquez - Oso/Delgado
Bradley
Morrow - Mavinga - Moor - Auro/VDW
Bono

That line-up looks really strong depending what kind of player you'd replace Jozy with

Could even play Seba as a false 9

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They weren't shopping him. Teams came in with offers well below how much we value him and we rejected them. We never told anyone we were listening to offers.

i don't see how we can move away from a predominantly 2 striker formation until Seba leaves. He's too small to play the 9 by himself and would very unlikely do the defensive duties necessary for a wide forward in any 4-5-1 variant.