Match Day 22 - Houston @ TFC - Saturday July 20 7:30pm - You Know What Time it Is

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Originally Posted by ensco

This is where I am.

No way do I think that the people who are upset are “wrong”. We spend more than anyone and are a 500 team. There is plenty to criticize. My personal belief is that Vanney’s Man City infatuation is clouding his judgment- nobody in MLS can be that team.

Vanney btw did the exact same thing he did last night in 2016 and 2017, and it worked.

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I agree to the bigger point - Vanney is capable of coaching this team to success. However, the luck we had with depleted lineups in 2017 ended in 2018 and by now he should have learned his lesson. There were a number of things obvious to any students of TFC about that lineup where weaknesses of players were not protected by strengths of others - so much so it was bizarre. It was almost like he said “ you guys are all complaining about minutes. Here you go and good luck with that”

I also think the company line that it was lack of energy at the start is nonsense. It didn’t look that way at the game at all. It was lack of focus and commitment to defense by two or three players; maybe four, at key momenta. And these were players that ahead of time people said “why are you playing them together”

It’s an odd blind spot for Vanney. And he sure looked angry afterwards.

I predict that none from that lineup except Q and Morrow starts next game. Oso and Mullins will make the bench, maybe Deleon and Endoh too. Moor will be the CB on the bench.

I'd like to post something from the MLS website about Vanney's comments on Keystone Cops defending.

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TFC have struggled to field a full first-choice XI all season, due to injuries, international absences and fixture congestion. Vanney lamented Saturday's loss did not feature players stepping up to the occasion."It didn’t work for us in terms of rotating the guys," he said. "It was an opportunity, it should’ve been a group of guys the were eager to go out and push it and prove something and it just came out real slow and passive."
And the manager said there were no guarantees moving forward.
“When our team wasn’t so deep and we had a lot of guys away, if you don’t have a great performance maybe you get another chance. This is one where maybe you don’t get another chance, we’ll see.”

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The way I see it, Vanney put his faith on the line in those guys, and they let him down. Whether that is on Vanney not including more stabilizing influences on the field or not, I'm thinking a couple of players played themselves out of the starting lineup last night and won't get another chance. Zavaleta and Chapman come to mind. Ciman is now buried at the bottom of the depth chart just ahead of Zavs. Mullins is probably not back next year. We're going to see a lot of projects come to an end after this season and new blood coming in from below.

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Originally Posted by Initial B

I'd like to post something from the MLS website about Vanney's comments on Keystone Cops defending.



The way I see it, Vanney put his faith on the line in those guys, and they let him down. Whether that is on Vanney not including more stabilizing influences on the field or not, I'm thinking a couple of players played themselves out of the starting lineup last night and won't get another chance. Zavaleta and Chapman come to mind. Ciman is now buried at the bottom of the depth chart just ahead of Zavs. Mullins is probably not back next year. We're going to see a lot of projects come to an end after this season and new blood coming in from below.

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I watched him say that. I think Ciman was top of mind for him at that moment - it came before or right after” ridiculous defending “ comment.

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Originally Posted by Bushmancan

Thats a fair response, who knows perhaps Mavinga had a knock. What I am saying is that I could see 1, 2 or even 3 significant players being rested. But we had Poz (Injury), Gallardo (Knock), OG (Rest), Bradley (Rest), Jozy (Rest), Moore (Injury-Almost Ready), Laryea (One could argue, player for player exchange), Delgado. That is pretty drastic.

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Since Mavinga played - what - 20 minutes on Wednesday, I would have expected him to start last night. To me that was the one thing you could have done to the rolled lineup and it would have improved the defence... The rest I understand, since both Wednesday and last night were so bloody humid. Thank god we're out of that stretch weatherwise.

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Originally Posted by Initial B

I'd like to post something from the MLS website about Vanney's comments on Keystone Cops defending.



The way I see it, Vanney put his faith on the line in those guys, and they let him down. Whether that is on Vanney not including more stabilizing influences on the field or not, I'm thinking a couple of players played themselves out of the starting lineup last night and won't get another chance. Zavaleta and Chapman come to mind. Ciman is now buried at the bottom of the depth chart just ahead of Zavs. Mullins is probably not back next year. We're going to see a lot of projects come to an end after this season and new blood coming in from below.

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Right re: chances, but you’ve got to wonder with the number of times Vanney has commented on players basically not performing up to snuff or doing what they were told...

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Originally Posted by stegosaurus

Right re: chances, but you’ve got to wonder with the number of times Vanney has commented on players basically not performing up to snuff or doing what they were told...

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Was his faith realistic or was it just wishful thinking?

Tata martino played his best players game in and game out with very few rotations and had his team playing 10x the intensity we do most games.

Pozuelo said in multiple interviews he would rather play 3 games a week instead of training.

Our team is always lacking energy, motivation, focus even with the insane amount of rotations. This is solely on Vanney.

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Originally Posted by Blizzard

Was his faith realistic or was it just wishful thinking?

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The real question is what choice does he have? It’s the third game in a week and at some point, depth players have to be rotated in and Houston looked as good as any. The only mistake I would say Vanney made was not inserting a double pivot instead of a single pivot to better protect the backline.

If you don’t have faith in your players, you have already undermined the team.

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Originally Posted by noimpactinmtl

The real question is what choice does he have? It’s the third game in a week and at some point, depth players have to be rotated in and Houston looked as good as any. The only mistake I would say Vanney made was not inserting a double pivot instead of a single pivot to better protect the backline.

If you don’t have faith in your players, you have already undermined the team.

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Faith helps, but so does talent, and our bench has very little of the latter.

Official Pravda version c/o Wheeler is that Vanney needed to field that rotated lineup in order to be in good shape for an eastern conference run.

https://twitter.com/GarethWheeler/st...928943617?s=20

If Vanney goes the rest of the season playing the real first team, and they win, then probably most people will probably not forgive this loss, but see it in a broader context.

I'm still trying to understand his choices for games like these and I'm not sure I agree that Wheeler is saying it like it exactly is.

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Originally Posted by Oldtimer

Official Pravda version c/o Wheeler is that Vanney needed to field that rotated lineup in order to be in good shape for an eastern conference run.

https://twitter.com/GarethWheeler/st...928943617?s=20

If Vanney goes the rest of the season playing the real first team, and they win, then probably most people will probably not forgive this loss, but see it in a broader context.

I'm still trying to understand his choices for games like these and I'm not sure I agree that Wheeler is saying it like it exactly is.

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We can probably factor in the fact that Houston is a western division opponent so it's only a three point game, not a six point game vs. a division rival.

Ya, they win put they aren't pulling ahead of us in a play-off race unlike an eastern division rival.

Also, our next match is vs. Cincinnati, the league's current punching bag at 0.77 PPG.

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Originally Posted by Blizzard

We can probably factor in the fact that Houston is a western division opponent so it's only a three point game, not a six point game vs. a division rival.

Ya, they win put they aren't pulling ahead of us in a play-off race unlike an eastern division rival.

Also, our next match is vs. Cincinnati, the league's current punching bag at 0.77 PPG.

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i don't agree with this at all

we have a week of rest before Cincinnati and 3 points v zero points is still 3 points missed - it's so f'd up

it was purely and simply a minor league management decision to sit the core of the team

simply stunningly stupid - there are really no Ifs, Ands or Buts about it - it would make it somewhat better if Vanney came straight out and admitted it rather than slagging the team he put on the pitch, which he did. that's the part that bothers me the most.

WEAR IT for gods sake.

The last team I recall rotating that heavily was Portland. They were playing away at Montreal and had a home game 3-4 days later. You need to play to win all your home games.

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Originally Posted by Blizzard

Was his faith realistic or was it just wishful thinking?

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It was both, plus some hubris thrown in for good measure.

He can say those players let him down, and didn't reward his faith, but the point is, as the coach, he should know that that number of changes is not appropriate. We all saw that as soon as the line-up was posted - how can he not see it coaching the team day-in, day-out?

But now he knows. And like he said, some players may have just blown their chances of being here next year.

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Originally Posted by backbeat

i don't agree with this at all

we have a week of rest before Cincinnati and 3 points v zero points is still 3 points missed - it's so f'd up

it was purely and simply a minor league management decision to sit the core of the team

simply stunningly stupid - there are really no Ifs, Ands or Buts about it - it would make it somewhat better if Vanney came straight out and admitted it rather than slagging the team he put on the pitch, which he did. that's the part that bothers me the most.

WEAR IT for gods sake.

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My point is (as I try to read Vanney's mind) if you're going to tank it, it's better to tank it against an out of conference opponent as it limits the potential damage. It's a three-pointer, not a six-pointer.

I don't like what happened either and as I said "somewhere", probably on twitter, with a week to go before the next game, there's no need to do this right now!

Rotation- agreed. But most of our injuries have happened in training. So unless Bradley Delgado and Omar are all sitting for training this week, one of them could have played to correct the major weakness with that lineup that we all have identified.

Delgado sitting I understand. In his position you log an absolute ton of miles. The rest of the choices are unusual in totality.

Getting a little tired of “we don’t know what happens behind closed doors / training” being used as justification for everything. Did training say it was a good idea to field our two worst CB’s and a inexperienced DM in front of them and then tell the team to bomb forward as usual?

Let’s just own this: There were a lot of awful lineup and tactical choices made and those very clearly cost us the game.

Ah yes, few of us are mentioning Delgado. He's going to get a complex. "What about MEEEEEE!"

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Originally Posted by ag futbol

Delgado sitting I understand. In his position you log an absolute ton of miles. The rest of the choices are unusual in totality.

Getting a little tired of “we don’t know what happens behind closed doors / training” being used as justification for everything. Did training say it was a good idea to field our two worst CB’s and a inexperienced DM in front of them and then tell the team to bomb forward as usual?

Let’s just own this: There were a lot of awful lineup and tactical choices made and those very clearly cost us the game.

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That sums it up. Thank you

I think we all got a bit of amnesia about something here and that defence that was put out.

Here's a line up from a game we won less then a month ago, against a better team

https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/ma...ited-fc/lineup


Note the CB pairing.


OK, Poz out for Mullins isn't a good thing but the rest of that squad looks awfully familiar.

Can we see how this happened?

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Originally Posted by OgtheDim

I think we all got a bit of amnesia about something here and that defence that was put out.

Here's a line up from a game we won less then a month ago, against a better team

https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/ma...ited-fc/lineup


Note the CB pairing.


OK, Poz out for Mullins isn't a good thing but the rest of that squad looks awfully familiar.

Can we see how this happened?

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lareya/delgado is a much harder working and better at D duo than auro, chapman
Fraser having an off night just made it worse

either way, Vanney picked the wrong line up, or didnt prepare his players properly. the 3rd goal suggests he slipped something i their water though.

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Originally Posted by C.Ronaldo

lareya/delgado is a much harder working and better at D duo than auro, chapman
Fraser having an off night just made it worse

either way, Vanney picked the wrong line up, or didnt prepare his players properly. the 3rd goal suggests he slipped something i their water though.

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Agreed on that - the criticism of the inner triangle of Fraser/Zavs/Ciman when they were OK enough against Atlanta is hindisght.

That group suked donkey bits but we had seen it recently.

Vanney was lost for words on the 3rd goal - hell, I've seen some awful stuff in years of watching MLS but that was about the worst defensive thing I've ever seen.

I'm personally done with Ciman unless he has somebody beside him like Gonzalez. Just too hero style without the physical ability to get back like Mavinga.

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Originally Posted by OgtheDim

I think we all got a bit of amnesia about something here and that defence that was put out.

Here's a line up from a game we won less then a month ago, against a better team

https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/ma...ited-fc/lineup


Note the CB pairing.


OK, Poz out for Mullins isn't a good thing but the rest of that squad looks awfully familiar.

Can we see how this happened?

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Yeah a big part of this Saturday was individual comical defending (although there was also one goal like that vs. Atlanta).

However Pozuelo is a HUGE upgrade over our squad vs. Houston. Watch the highlights: he wasn't just playing striker. He was roaming all over the field, maintaining possession and threatening Atlanta.

Plus the Schaff is a big upgrade in speed & pinning back the opposition vs. Chapman. Watch the goals we created.

Plus Delgado provides more defensive help to Fraser than we had vs. Houston.

Plus the Atlanta result was pretty lucky, including two PKs 90+ minutes, and only ours going in.

Plus the way the Atlanta played over against Houston, with Houston bunkering and playing on the counter. (Atlanta much more open.) Osorio and the rest of our starting offense on Saturday couldn't break that down. That style of play also works well in the oppressive weather of Saturday. (The weather on June 26th was better.)

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Originally Posted by OgtheDim

I think we all got a bit of amnesia about something here and that defence that was put out.

Here's a line up from a game we won less then a month ago, against a better team

https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/ma...ited-fc/lineup


Note the CB pairing.


OK, Poz out for Mullins isn't a good thing but the rest of that squad looks awfully familiar.

Can we see how this happened?

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Fair enough but Poz and Marky (and Shaff) is quite different than Oso and Mullins given that Marky is defensive. But fair enough; perhaps we have been a bit hard on Vanney.

One more big difference: most of the lineup choices on June 26th were forced, as Osorio, Bradley & Altidore were away on international duty. In that case, everyone is more likely to grin & bear it, live with the results. Lots of the anger for Saturday is due to most of the lineup choices being optional / based on Vanney's choices. With our best player / Pozuelo already out due to injury, I don't think it was the time for massive experiments.

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Originally Posted by Auzzy

One more big difference: most of the lineup choices on June 26th were forced, as Osorio, Bradley & Altidore were away on international duty. In that case, everyone is more likely to grin & bear it, live with the results. Lots of the anger for Saturday is due to most of the lineup choices being optional / based on Vanney's choices. With our best player / Pozuelo already out due to injury, I don't think it was the time for massive experiments.

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Partly true - the 4 optional choices on Saturday were Bradley, Delgado, Altidore & Shaff. Mavinga was injured & Gonzalez had a knock we were told earlier in the week.

The CB pairing was the only 2 CB's available really.

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Originally Posted by OgtheDim

Partly true - the 4 optional choices on Saturday were Bradley, Delgado, Altidore & Shaff. Mavinga was injured & Gonzalez had a knock we were told earlier in the week.

The CB pairing was the only 2 CB's available really.

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OK thanks, I forgot about González. But they had only said cramping & managing minutes for him; still seemed possible if necessary (which is likely why he was on the bench). See the Steve Buffery article linked near the beginning of this thread. (TFC had also said Drew Moor would be available for the game, on a limited basis.) Maybe Vanney would have put González on late, if he hadn't used up all 3 subs by then in an attempt to save the game?

Where did you hear Mavinga was injured? Wasn't mentioned in any of the game previews or other articles I've seen. Everybody had Mavinga written into their rosters here in this thread, until TFC released the final lineup an hour before the game, and nobody mentioned anything else.

All these injuries sound like last year, which reminds me: I would REALLY love to hear what happened to that sports science company that was supposed to be hired for this year, to avoid a repeat.

In any case: if only 2nd to 3rd choice CBs were available, and Pozuelo out injured, I would think that leaves zero room for other roster experiments in the same game. Or play very conservatively. (Why does TFC hardly ever bunker; what other teams do against us successfully so often?)

Or play very conservatively. (Why does TFC hardly ever bunker; what other teams do against us successfully so often?)

vanney bunker...lol jus call him pep vanney,he has a fascination with MAN CITY.

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Originally Posted by reggie

Or play very conservatively. (Why does TFC hardly ever bunker; what other teams do against us successfully so often?)

vanney bunker...lol jus call him pep vanney,he has a fascination with MAN CITY.

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Champagne taste on a beer budget. (Beer budget outside of the DPs, that is.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L8zGfKDCCY