Manning Failure listing Thread (formerly evaluation thread)

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Originally Posted by ensco

So Armas is going to have to go. I doubt he lasts 48 hours…

Tanenbaum cannot allow Manning and Curtis to do anything other than an interim hire here.

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Originally Posted by OgtheDim

I hope you are right.

I think in a normal world you would be right.


I still get the feeling management firmly believes this is all due to not being at home. Until tonight, I agreed with that. But what I saw tonight was waaaay deeper in terms of coach capability.


Manning isn't stupid though & he knows where this is going. He almost fired Vanney in 2018 after that year. The Manning that thought that one through would make the decision tonight. Do we still have that Manning though?

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Dunno if he is going to force a change before TFC is back at BMO. If they weren't playing every game actually away, I'm pretty sure Armas would have been out already. As it is, he may be out just because TFC stinks so bad and Joey Saputo's cheapskate club is doing better despite the same issues of playing away. However, Manning may give him until late August. I guess we'll see.

Longer term, the MLSE board will expect a return on investment, and cellar-dweller isn't it. Larry T wants his teams to win. Bell and Rogers want playoffs for content for their networks. Manning knows this so he will have to act.

I'm concerned that Manning may just be a small-market guy and not the right one for the (theoretic) ambitions of MLSE and the broadcasters.

Maybe promote him to head of in-game experience and stadium ops and get somebody else to deal with the sports side. :D

I have tried to bend over backwards given Covid etc… these things are real. You have to consider that the pandemic has placed a particular burden on TFC.

But I give up. Sometimes, you find out who is not wearing bathing suits only when the tide goes out.

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Originally Posted by Richard

The team needs an honest and open discussion regarding the Jozy situation. Part of the reason we are so abysmal is because our DP striker is not playing, whether that's his own fault, or the egos in management, we need clarity.

The team cannot be allowed to just sweep our talisman under the rug. Tanenbaum, and the board need put everyone under a microscope, this is horseshit.

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Yes. Some other things too, in addition to the coach. What do we do at CB? From a tactical perspective, why did we bring in Soteldo? when everyone is heathy, what do we do with our midfield? Do we really wan tto develop Priso and Okello? and more, those are just top of mind.

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Originally Posted by ensco

So Armas is going to have to go. I doubt he lasts 48 hours…

Tanenbaum cannot allow Manning and Curtis to do anything other than an interim hire here.

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Does Mr. Dichio do a solid for the Reds, taking on that interim title ? Outside of Jon Conway Armas hired this staff. Not sure what it says about Jon that he was the only member of Greg’s staff not to follow him to LA.

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Originally Posted by Red CB Toronto

Does Mr. Dichio do a solid for the Reds, taking on that interim title ? Outside of Jon Conway Armas hired this staff. Not sure what it says about Jon that he was the only member of Greg’s staff not to follow him to LA.

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I think Dichio would be a good interim, because he has made it clear he doesn't want to be a permanent TFC senior team coach. Problem is, he might not even be interested in an interim role.

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Originally Posted by Auzzy

I'm concerned that Manning may just be a small-market guy and not the right one for the (theoretic) ambitions of MLSE and the broadcasters.

Maybe promote him to head of in-game experience and stadium ops and get somebody else to deal with the sports side. :D

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This sounds like the best compromise available. Manning gets to save face and continue working for the organization, while someone who is able to make better personnel choices can take over as president and clean house where necessary. It would at least allow MLSE to act like they are maintaining continuity.

I am super concerned about Friesdaal (not sure how you spell his name, that's how invisible he is) and MLSE/Bogers.

These guys have approved spending but otherwise been absentee, and that catches up with you. You cannot be a non-entity like Friisdahl is. Tanenbaum is a figurehead, he is a minority shareholder only. People don’t know who is in charge.

Do a search on Friisdahl and all you find is a bunch of charity stuff and the fact that he just became a board member of SAS, the Scandinavian airline. That is a big commitment,and it sounds like fun if you are Friisdahl (obviously that is what Friisdahl cares about, he came from Air Canada). But what do you suppose Masai Ujiri, who only cares about being all-in on championships, makes of his boss' interests and priorities…..?

The Masai situation, which has become extremely bizarre, is the evidence that something is seriously wrong. For the Raps FO, this is the most important month of the year, and they are going into their biggest draft in at least a decade …. and don’t know what their front office is or will be. Masai knows all this. But he won’t sign. Why is this happening?

Vanney's departure also may have had more to it along these lines.

Money is not the issue. It's leadership that is the issue.

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Originally Posted by Auzzy

I'm concerned that Manning may just be a small-market guy and not the right one for the (theoretic) ambitions of MLSE and the broadcasters.

Maybe promote him to head of in-game experience and stadium ops and get somebody else to deal with the sports side. :D

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Originally Posted by Kamp Berg

This sounds like the best compromise available. Manning gets to save face and continue working for the organization, while someone who is able to make better personnel choices can take over as president and clean house where necessary. It would at least allow MLSE to act like they are maintaining continuity.

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A great suggestion, but the problem I see is that any other job title other then "president", I have a feeling would be considered to be a "demotion". Is that something that Manning would be interested in?

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Originally Posted by ensco

I am super concerned about Friesdaal (not sure how you spell his name, that's how invisible he is) and MLSE/Bogers.

These guys have approved spending but otherwise been absentee, and that catches up with you. You cannot be a non-entity like Friisdahl is. Tanenbaum is a figurehead, he is a minority shareholder only. People don’t know who is in charge.

Do a search on Friisdahl and all you find is a bunch of charity stuff and the fact that he just became a board member of SAS, the Scandinavian airline. That is a big commitment,and it sounds like fun if you are Friisdahl (obviously that is what Friisdahl cares about, he came from Air Canada). But what do you suppose Masai Ujiri, who only cares about being all-in on championships, makes of his boss' interests and priorities…..?

The Masai situation, which has become extremely bizarre, is the evidence that something is seriously wrong. For the Raps FO, this is the most important month of the year, and they are going into their biggest draft in at least a decade …. and don’t know what their front office is or will be. Masai knows all this. But he won’t sign. Why is this happening?

Vanney's departure also may have had more to it along these lines.

Money is not the issue. It's leadership that is the issue.

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It seems like the board has bought into the mentality that MLSE should be run like a regular business, instead of a sports conglomerate.

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Originally Posted by ensco

The Masai situation, which has become extremely bizarre, is the evidence that something is seriously wrong. For the Raps FO, this is the most important month of the year, and they are going into their biggest draft in at least a decade …. and don’t know what their front office is or will be. Masai knows all this. But he won’t sign. Why is this happening?

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Ohhh....what's going on there? I actually don't follow basketball (or for that matter, any sport other then soccer), except for the Raps championship run, so I have no idea :).

But wouldn't it be their GM making the decision, in consultation with their coach and/or president, and other technical staff? Or do they not have a GM at this time?

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Originally Posted by spe18

Ohhh....what's going on there? I actually don't follow basketball (or for that matter, any sport other then soccer), except for the Raps championship run, so I have no idea :).

But wouldn't it be their GM making the decision, in consultation with their coach and/or president, and other technical staff? Or do they not have a GM at this time?

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Masai is President and is out of contract and hasn't re-signed (or left, or been terminated). He has tons of options, he is highly regarded and just built a championship team. Money is no object, MLSE has made that clear. The GM and everyone else in the FO was signed/recruited by Masai. Same for most of the players.

It is an unprecedented situation in all of sports, really, and doubly so because Masai is so widely respected.

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Originally Posted by ensco

Masai is President and is out of contract and hasn't re-signed (or left, or been terminated). He has tons of options, he is highly regarded and just built a championship team. Money is no object, MLSE has made that clear. The GM and everyone else in the FO was signed/recruited by Masai. Same for most of the players.

It is an unprecedented situation in all of sports, really, and doubly so because Masai is so widely respected.

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I see. So I guess what we're saying is that if they can't get their act together with the basketball team, which is far more valuable to MLSE, then I suspect that you're not going to get it together on the soccer team either.

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Originally Posted by ensco

Masai is President and is out of contract and hasn't re-signed (or left, or been terminated). He has tons of options, he is highly regarded and just built a championship team. Money is no object, MLSE has made that clear. The GM and everyone else in the FO was signed/recruited by Masai. Same for most of the players.

It is an unprecedented situation in all of sports, really, and doubly so because Masai is so widely respected.

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I wonder what they offered Vanney. I have zero faith that Curtis and Manning recognized his value.

Galaxy won again yesterday. Only two losses, Chicarito leading the league in scoring …

Losing him and Bez was truly shortsighted.

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Originally Posted by Kamp Berg

This sounds like the best compromise available. Manning gets to save face and continue working for the organization, while someone who is able to make better personnel choices can take over as president and clean house where necessary. It would at least allow MLSE to act like they are maintaining continuity.

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Originally Posted by spe18

A great suggestion, but the problem I see is that any other job title other then "president", I have a feeling would be considered to be a "demotion". Is that something that Manning would be interested in?

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Guys my comment was meant as a joke, hence the smiley. OgtheDim felt that game-day experience & similar things had improved under Manning, so I joked to put him in charge of only those things.

I still think Vanney left because of what LAG was to him in the past, what it would be like to rebuild something & just to be near extended family.

TFC could have throw 5 million at him & I think Vanney still would have gone.

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Originally Posted by jloome

I wonder what they offered Vanney. I have zero faith that Curtis and Manning recognized his value.

Galaxy won again yesterday. Only two losses, Chicarito leading the league in scoring …

Losing him and Bez was truly shortsighted.

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Both Bez and Vanney left for the same reasons. They had a chance to save their teams. In Bez’s chance, it’s a chance to build a new stadium and bring trophies to his hometown. Vanney has an opportunity to turn perennial lolcows in LA Galaxy back into their glorious past.

Bezbatchenko is pretty much all but assured of a statue at New Crew Stadium, while Vanney is proving that he is one of the best coaches in MLS.

These are things we have no hope of ever matching, much like the Islanders to Tavares.

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Originally Posted by Auzzy

Guys my comment was meant as a joke, hence the smiley. OgtheDim felt that game-day experience & similar things had improved under Manning, so I joked to put him in charge of only those things.

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I’m ready to embrace anything that gets him out of office 😂

We have 5 points. New England has 23.

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Originally Posted by ensco

So Armas is going to have to go. I doubt he lasts 48 hours…

Tanenbaum cannot allow Manning and Curtis to do anything other than an interim hire here.

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24 down, 24 to go. Let’s hope you are right

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Originally Posted by noimpactinmtl

Both Bez and Vanney left for the same reasons. They had a chance to save their teams. In Bez’s chance, it’s a chance to build a new stadium and bring trophies to his hometown. Vanney has an opportunity to turn perennial lolcows in LA Galaxy back into their glorious past.

Bezbatchenko is pretty much all but assured of a statue at New Crew Stadium, while Vanney is proving that he is one of the best coaches in MLS.

These are things we have no hope of ever matching, much like the Islanders to Tavares.

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You might be right in each case. But then again, if the machine is well-oiled and running to its potential, taking these sorts of moves are at best a lateral. I’ll speculate that if Bill and Ali were better people to work for, there might have been a bit more staying power.

ill say this, it seems like it all started with jozy's contract being played out with 1 year left- manning seemed to impose his north american negotations( where in hockey, bball) they wait until contract is at the end.

In the whole world, most players get settled with 1 year left-

He has been reactive more than proactive.

Yes Poz was nice( still a laughing matter how it was handled)


Still havent replaced both seba and victor yet.

Hasnt made any moves for youth goalie.
no moves for a CB- which we all knew was needed ( even with Omar- we all knew he was way too slow)


so we all see this- and they want to make us feel dumb saying things like

2 weeks,
borre


You can see the arrogance on his face like he was the main factor in TFC's success.

Man up, step down, move on.

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Originally Posted by ensco

Tanenbaum is a figurehead, he is a minority shareholder only. People don’t know who is in charge.

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I agree with a lot of your takes, ensco, but I can't agree with you on this statement, it's a bit too extreme a characterization.

He is a minority shareholder, and he has a lot less power than he have be if Bell and Rogers were less chummy and he was the "tie-breaker" in board votes. It seems like Bell and Rogers disagree on almost nothing. However, Bell and Rogers have pretty well agreed to let him be the representative of MLSE's ownership, he sits on the important league boards of various sports as a part-owner, including the MLS Board of Governors. He has real decision-making power in those roles, he's not just a figurehead.

As far as the team goes, for decisions like DP hires, player budget, etc. I think all three entities (Bell, Rogers, Larry T) have to be in agreement. However, if Larry T wanted to ditch Manning, he would probably get his way. Manning knows this, so there is real accountability there.

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Originally Posted by Oldtimer

I agree with a lot of your takes, ensco, but I can't agree with you on this statement, it's a bit too extreme a characterization.

He is a minority shareholder, and he has a lot less power than he have be if Bell and Rogers were less chummy and he was the "tie-breaker" in board votes. It seems like Bell and Rogers disagree on almost nothing. However, Bell and Rogers have pretty well agreed to let him be the representative of MLSE's ownership, he sits on the important league boards of various sports as a part-owner, including the MLS Board of Governors. He has real decision-making power in those roles, he's not just a figurehead.

As far as the team goes, for decisions like DP hires, player budget, etc. I think all three entities (Bell, Rogers, Larry T) have to be in agreement. However, if Larry T wanted to ditch Manning, he would probably get his way. Manning knows this, so there is real accountability there.

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The interesting one was Tim L. He was a big challenge to Larry T’s authority. Given his bold vision and personal stature. The fact that he didn’t last but Larry did, tells you what you need to know. Also, for a long time He (Tanenbaum) was actually the balance of power - it’s how he doubled his stake when Teachers sold to Bell/Rodgers

Not sure who's idea it was to play in Orlando, I assume Manning, but it probably was a bad move. I think Hartford would have been a better spot. First problem is sharing a facility with a team we already played twice and the weather isn't suitable for the conditioning of our players. I knew that would be a problem as soon as it was announced. I know this was the choice of the players because of lifestyle but maybe with a new (no) system we should have bunkered down in a more remote area with less distractions.

We are at the fork in the road that is the riddle of supporter life. Fair weather fans drive a lot more change than the hardcores (who are mostly taken for granted, because of their loyalty).

Leiweke was a radical solution, born of real failure of all the teams. But now that it's really just TFC failing, the mindset of the bosses will govern what happens here. Which means nothing good, I am afraid.

We are yelling into the void, I am afraid. Even before you factor in the pandemic.

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Bell and Rogers are the control shareholders. Our CEO came from Mapleflot (oh excuse me, others call it Air Canada).

All everybody involved thinks/knows is monopolies.

Plus there is a particular problem here. There is only one team that survives endless failure/mediocrity. Being in the same entity as the Leafs is poison, it affects in a bad way everyone involved, it makes them think fan bases are all blind idiots.

If they don’t clean house my seats will be empty for the first game back. I think Ensco is right. Seeing empty seats is all they will understand. Might cancel TSN after the Euro final too and tell them it is because TFC is a disaster

MLSE won't be happy if TFC misses the playoffs. Bell and Rogers need CONTENT. It's not like when the Teachers Pension Plan owned them.

Likely thing, board will start asking Manning some questions when TFC misses the playoffs. Zero chance they change who is President.

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Originally Posted by Oldtimer

MLSE won't be happy if TFC misses the playoffs. Bell and Rogers need CONTENT. It's not like when the Teachers Pension Plan owned them.

Likely thing, board will start asking Manning some questions when TFC misses the playoffs. Zero chance they change who is President.

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True re content. And I agree that Manning likely isn’t gone. But he should be. The clubs communications are appalling - they treat us like we are ignorant about soccer even though most of us have played, coached, volunteered, etc. They needed a CB far more than Soteldo. And a coach more than either. All of these things in the end are down to his leadership choices.

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Originally Posted by MightyDM

True re content. And I agree that Manning likely isn’t gone. But he should be. The clubs communications are appalling - they treat us like we are ignorant about soccer even though most of us have played, coached, volunteered, etc. They needed a CB far more than Soteldo. And a coach more than either. All of these things in the end are down to his leadership choices.

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Hubris has been hard at work in the halls of MLSE, where every executive thinks he is an expert because he was once assistant coach of his kids house league hockey or soccer club. Dale Lastman may be a good lawyer, but he was a lousy ball hockey player (believe me, I know).