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johnmolinaro
02-06-2009, 07:35 PM
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2009/02/06/f-toronto-fc.html

My take on the team's biggest problem.
John

BFin
02-06-2009, 07:40 PM
Another solid read John, thanks a lot!
Get any sense of whether he had any progress on even one central defender, or did it still seem like a hope and a dream?

TFCREDNWHITE
02-06-2009, 07:42 PM
John I FULLY AGREE with you.....

Our Defence is HORRIBLE!, we need to shore it up BIG time!!!

Razcle
02-06-2009, 07:45 PM
Enjoyable read. Would be nice to hear some names on the radar as we have heard about Vitti recently.

johnmolinaro
02-06-2009, 07:48 PM
Another solid read John, thanks a lot!
Get any sense of whether he had any progress on even one central defender, or did it still seem like a hope and a dream?

very hard to say. Carver and Mo are playing their cards close to their chest regarding this. I get the sense they are looking very hard.

What caught me off guard was Carver saying that he believes Harmse and Nana could fill in for Marco and Tyrone. I don't think that's an upgrade at all.

I think they have to get at least one experienced centre back - and probably two - before the season starts. Otherwise, they're gonna be in trouble.

John

wzhxvy
02-06-2009, 07:51 PM
Funny that Velez does not agree. I am shocked. In his mind he is a genius as well. To say he was outclassed last year would be kind...he looked like the kid on the short bus...

BFin
02-06-2009, 07:53 PM
I agree with you John, Nana and Harmse are in no way ready to compete full time in the MLS, thats a pipe dream for Carver thinks that will work.

Thanks for the follow up!

johnmolinaro
02-06-2009, 07:53 PM
Funny that Velez does not agree. I am shocked. In his mind he is a genius as well. To say he was outclassed last year would be kind...he looked like the kid on the short bus...

I like Tyrone and Marco on a personal level - both are nice guys, and Tyrone is quite the cut up - but I just don't think they're up to the task. Marco especially is a liability.

Just my view, though.
John

Flipityflu
02-06-2009, 08:05 PM
i think we could do with just one experience CB addon, but you can never get enough good defenders in this league (well, any league really lol).

felipe
02-06-2009, 08:44 PM
I think we'd be fine with just one CB too.

Either Velez, Marshall, or Harmse would be fine paired with a better DC.

Its just that any combination of those two for anything more than a stopgap sends shudders down my spine.

I'd get rid of Marshall, he's the oldest - and defiently has the more trade value, I would think.

I think, (hope) we'll see better things in the future from Velez and Harmse. It'd be easier for either of them with a 'real' partner.

wzhxvy
02-06-2009, 08:47 PM
I am sure they are nice guys...and I actually didnt think that Tyrone was that bad...I think he could play a role on the team...but Velez has to go...I mean really people...every time he touched the ball, it was an adventure, and he missed so many assignments it was laughable

johnmolinaro
02-06-2009, 08:55 PM
I am sure they are nice guys...and I actually didnt think that Tyrone was that bad...I think he could play a role on the team...but Velez has to go...I mean really people...every time he touched the ball, it was an adventure, and he missed so many assignments it was laughable

it's a tough call. Marco is the bigger defensive liability, but Tyrone has more trade value.

If it were me and I couldn't sign two new centre backs (and I don't think the team will), I'd let Marco go.

djking2
02-06-2009, 09:18 PM
Good read but a little harsh I'd say. Carver saying that Harmse and Nana could fill in is really just stating the only options he currently has.

Anybody that's been paying attention can see that Mo has been putting together the pieces he needs to bring in some players and we really don't know who the &*^% they are. Just like last year. I just hope they get here sooner than they did last year.

Detroit_TFC
02-06-2009, 09:35 PM
Looks like we'll again see our old friend, the closing moments defensive error resulting in an opposition goal scoring opportunity unless we get a decent veteran central defender. Mainly to run the show in the back, because Velez and Marshall are knuckleheads.

James17930
02-06-2009, 09:40 PM
I think Marshall is good when he'd not paired with Velez, but even that being said, they aren't absolutely horrible (like, Marco Reda horrible).

I do think that with more and consistent time together they could both improve their games. I don't think they've quite been given a fair shake of things.

I guess we'll see who comes into camp in Florida.

rocker
02-06-2009, 11:06 PM
ya I agree that the article is a bit harsh. Velez had some bad games definitely.. some real howling mistakes. But there games when he was perfectly capable (maybe he wasn't tested? I dunno..). He's a fringe starter but not awful as the article seems to suggest to me.

Marshall I actually have a higher opinion of. many times he could be a real strength out there. He's slow but smart and very tough.

I do think they could use 1 solid CB who's far and away better than Velez and Marshall. If you pair such a guy with either of them, they'll look 10x better.

bee dubya
02-06-2009, 11:43 PM
I'd agree that we definitely need to add one strong CB in the off season. I'd expect that we might see Marshall moved as a way of shedding some salary and possibly gaining some bench depth. I'm sure Marshall would be welcomed by teams like SJ or Seattle.

John, or anyone who can clarify, didn't Nana Attakora-Gyan change his name to Nana Attakora at one point last season? I thought I read about that at one point...

Ossington Mental Youth
02-07-2009, 02:10 AM
I think that Velez has been villainized, that being said it is absolutely necessary that we sign at least one centreback that is experienced and can take a leadership role and you will see a different Velez. Hell, youll see a different defense all together. Its going to be a make or break year for him and i think we will see a noted improvement, if not he will be cut. Remember, he primarily played rightback for the majority of his career to he doesnt full understnad the responsibility that comes with the centreback position.

We were tied for the fifth worst defense in the league which means there are at least 4 other teams out of twelve that are just as bad. Im not saying thats a good thing or justifying it but for us to say that we have the worst defense just isnt true. I think that if we signed two we would have a sold play off team without a doubt. I also agree with John in saying that Nana and Harmse are not enough, yes they are good (id even argue that Nana has more promise than Harmse) and will fill Velez and Marshalls boots one day on a regular basis but they are definite not enough.

Ossington Mental Youth
02-07-2009, 02:13 AM
also i agree that Robbo should only be used as a CB as a last resort. It just doesnt address the problem at hand, same goes for Jimmy who in my opinion was not a good cb.

BuSaPuNk
02-07-2009, 12:02 PM
Great article John. I think if they bring in one quaility CB than it would put enough pressure on Velez, Marshall, Harmse, and Nana to raise there level of play. Keep who is playing well and trade the odd man out.

loconet
02-07-2009, 01:08 PM
Simply put, Toronto's central defensive pairing of Tyrone Marshall and Marco Velez was dreadful last season, and their inept partnership was a major reason why the Canadian club allowed 43 goals, one of the worst defensive records in the league
Agreed 200%.


I've been saying this for a long time. Our defense is dreadful. Not only in actually defending but playing out with the ball. Why launch it up field without vision just to lose possession again? Anyone with a bit of clue about the sport realizes our central defense is mediocre. I don't care that that's the norm in the league - fix it!

Ossington Mental Youth
02-07-2009, 01:11 PM
That and we cant clear a ball for shit

jloome
02-07-2009, 01:12 PM
Uh, not to throw cold water on a theory, but our defence isn't dreadful.

Our defense is dreadful ON THE ROAD. At home, we had the longest shutout streak in the league. In fact, if our home defensive record had been as bad as our road one, we'd have been last in the league.

So there has to be more than just a technical/talent component to this.

TFCREDNWHITE
02-07-2009, 01:19 PM
Dear Marco Velez and to a smaller degree Tyrone Marshall(I actually like Marshall, but oh well) LOL



basic principles of team defence in soccer:



Most of the defending team collapses into the space in front of opponent's point of attack.

The 1st defender guides the ball carrier into thickest part of defence or away from the middle.

Covering defenders cut off "through" spaces.

Together, first and second defenders squeeze the attack into a tight, difficult space.

principles of individual defence:
Delay Then Pressure

• Player nearest the ball is "the 1st Defender":
• Get the ball carrier's head down by putting him under close enough pressure to make him worry about controlling the ball and so he cannot look for passing options, but not close enough to be beaten;
The player(s) not nearest to the ball get into position to intercept all short or desired passing options; (they provide cover)
• Leave open most difficult and longest passing options as long as there is good pressure and cover on the ball carrier and his nearest passing options.

The first defender should not run straight at the ball carrier, but should come in at an angle that would force the ball carrier to pass back or to attack toward our covering defenders or toward a touchline. This makes the opponent's attack predictable and easy to read by covering defenders.

When the attacker has been contained, but still maintains possession of the ball, the defender would do well to force the attacker to move to the side or even backwards. By forcing laterally, the supporting defenders can gain time to recover. Once recovered, the supporting defenders can enhance their positions as they have more time to adjust. An attacker that is allowed to go forward, causes the whole team to adjust their vertical defensive positions.

If the defender can force the attacker to go backwards, the defender must try to maintain close pressure to keep the attacker from opening up space.
The supporting defence should use this opportunity to push forward as well, compressing the attack away from it's own goal. If the on ball pressure is not there, then the supporting defence would do well not to compress as the attacker will have time and space to find and take advantage of the defensive weak spots.
The 1st defender, in applying pressure to the attacking ball-handler, should:

Delay

• Staggered stance, alternating front and back foot, feet shoulder width apart, legs bent, body bent, on your toes (don't get flat-footed).

• Feints and stabs but do not commit until ball-carrier makes a mistake.
• Concentrate on player, not the ball, look at ball carrier's hips, not his feet or upper body.

• With peripheral vision, see the space between the ball and ball carrier. If the ball gets away from feet:

Deny

• Deny the shot;
• Deny penetration by denying "through" spaces which ball carrier desires to penetrate.

• Close distance between self and ball carrier. Get close enough to force ball carrier to alter course of attack and to force his head down to concentrate on not losing possession of the ball.

• Choose angle of approach to guide ball carrier away from dangerous space.

• Block any attempted shot.
Destroy

• Win possession by stepping between ball carrier and ball if ball gets away from his feet.

• Tackle also if the ball carrier allows ball to be between his own feet. Tackles should be fully committed through centre of ball carrier's position.

• The 2nd defenders, (those next nearest to the ball), are those who are marking up to close passing options. They must cover the space behind their teammate who is pressuring the ball; and if numbers are up than extra defender might decide to risk double teaming the ball carrier to win the ball.

• The 3rd defender provides Balance - the 3rd and other defenders cover deep and attacking spaces which may be used by the opponent to switch their point of attack, for example, by playing to the opposite wing.

rocker
02-07-2009, 01:48 PM
Uh, not to throw cold water on a theory, but our defence isn't dreadful.

Our defense is dreadful ON THE ROAD. At home, we had the longest shutout streak in the league. In fact, if our home defensive record had been as bad as our road one, we'd have been last in the league.

So there has to be more than just a technical/talent component to this.

good point. how can guys be technically good at home and not on the road??

maybe it's a product of the overall team play. for whatever reason, teams always do worse on the road (tiredness from travel? fans at other stadiums pump their home side up?). With worse team play it would leave more problems for the defense to deal with.

jabbronies
02-07-2009, 02:15 PM
good point. how can guys be technically good at home and not on the road??

maybe it's a product of the overall team play. for whatever reason, teams always do worse on the road (tiredness from travel? fans at other stadiums pump their home side up?). With worse team play it would leave more problems for the defense to deal with.


At home our offense was decent. When the ball is in the offensive zone for most of the game, the Defence doesn't really have much to do back there except pick up stray balls that come out too far.

On the road our offence was shite and our D was tested. And they failed miserably IMO

Ossington Mental Youth
02-07-2009, 10:37 PM
our biggest and easiest prob to solve with Defence is the fact we dont clear the fucking ball properly

Roogsy
02-07-2009, 10:41 PM
This article is one big

QFT!!!

ExiledRed
02-07-2009, 11:11 PM
I disagree with John's assertation that Toronto had one of the worst defences in the league, and seeing as this is the basis of the whole article, I have to counter that defence is not and hasn't been our biggest problem.

Our concession of goals was not 'one of the worst.' We conceded less than New York, D.C United, Colorado and LA. we also tied with New England.

On the other side of the field we see our scoring record, you know, the offense. Only SJ scored less goals, so in truth our offense last season WAS one of the worst.

Velez and Marshall both had some very good games, several which I think ended in 0-0 results at home. They are both good players and can be adapted better to their roles this season. Our attack however blew shit, once Dichio took a knock on the head that is, and our midfield was sharing the ball with the other team to much.

The teamwork was poor, time and again the other teams had space to break down our offence, maraud the midfield and persistently harass our defenders.


If we'd finished half the golden chances and sitters destined for goal last season, those defensive errors, and lapses would have occured less, and meant less.

pepher
02-08-2009, 10:11 AM
I wonder who will be the first MLS team to sign a Centre Back as a DP? With the number of goals/game, a solid DP level defender could be the difference in winning 3-4 extra games/season at least surely. *insert "don't call me Shirley" joke here* With the improvements to the midfield and our young forwards settling in after a year, a solid defender would be nice. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather have a start striker scoring 4 goals/game but that's not being very realistic is it?

koryo
02-08-2009, 10:15 AM
I disagree with John's assertation that Toronto had one of the worst defences in the league, and seeing as this is the basis of the whole article, I have to counter that defence is not and hasn't been our biggest problem.

Our concession of goals was not 'one of the worst.' We conceded less than New York, D.C United, Colorado and LA. we also tied with New England.

On the other side of the field we see our scoring record, you know, the offense. Only SJ scored less goals, so in truth our offense last season WAS one of the worst.

Velez and Marshall both had some very good games, several which I think ended in 0-0 results at home. They are both good players and can be adapted better to their roles this season. Our attack however blew shit, once Dichio took a knock on the head that is, and our midfield was sharing the ball with the other team to much.

The teamwork was poor, time and again the other teams had space to break down our offence, maraud the midfield and persistently harass our defenders.


If we'd finished half the golden chances and sitters destined for goal last season, those defensive errors, and lapses would have occured less, and meant less.

Part of the problem though is that our shaky back line is precisely what pulls the team deeper into their own end. Our midfield attackers would frequently have to bail out the back line, and we'd lose our attacking shape in the process.

TFCREDNWHITE
02-08-2009, 01:00 PM
There should be no questions of "well u see the real problem is this ___!"

The bottom line is we need a Striker and AT LEAST ONE STRONG, SKILLFUL CB.

Thats the bottom line. Its not our money. but it is our team. So i want the best for them and that means bring those positions up to speed!!

I'm sick of excuses....

ensco
02-08-2009, 02:01 PM
I wouldn't pick on the CBs either, but for different reasons than Exiled does.

Everything matters and nothing matters.

We were at last-place team. We need improvement everywhere. Every player that we're counting on this year, with the exception of Dichio, had a mix of pretty decent games, combined with outings when they were invisible or awful. This is just as true of Sutton and Guevara as it is of the CBs (and dare I say it, the sainted Jimmy B and Robinson also had some very weak outings).

But we weren't just a last-place team. We were also pretty competitive. What we need is maturity and consistency.

-Don't bring in critically important players in May and June.
-Don't ask players to play formations that don't suit them (for instance, neither Dichio or Cunningham were ever right for the type of 4-5-1 Carver played in the first half last year).
-Don't change formations based on the availability of international callups - commit to a system where people can move in and out of the lineup.
-Don't call players out in the post-game press conference.

jloome
02-08-2009, 03:19 PM
At home our offense was decent. When the ball is in the offensive zone for most of the game, the Defence doesn't really have much to do back there except pick up stray balls that come out too far.

On the road our offence was shite and our D was tested. And they failed miserably IMO

Good point. Then again, who gets shelled with shots on the road the way we do?

LUFC
02-08-2009, 03:25 PM
we were supposdly linked with roma's panucci but i believe he was offered new contract. i doubt hed come either way.

Ossington Mental Youth
02-08-2009, 08:19 PM
Ensco-
Definitely agree that consistency from the coaching staff (cough Carver, who im a fan of, for the record) is necessary. I dont think its going to be the 'keep the shirt policy' this year and i think Suttons got starting position, two things, imo that allowed for us to lose some games.

trane
02-09-2009, 02:33 PM
Dear Marco Velez and to a smaller degree Tyrone Marshall(I actually like Marshall, but oh well) LOL



basic principles of team defence in soccer:



Most of the defending team collapses into the space in front of opponent's



point of attack.


The 1st defender guides the ball carrier into thickest part of defence or away

from the middle.


Covering defenders cut off "through" spaces.

Together, first and second defenders squeeze the attack into a tight,

difficult space.

principles of individual defence:

Delay Then Pressure
Player nearest the ball is "the 1st Defender":
Get the ball carrier's head down by putting him under close enough pressure to make him worry about controlling the ball and so he cannot look for passing options, but not close enough to be beaten;
The player(s) not nearest to the ball get into position to intercept all short or desired passing options; (they provide cover)
Leave open most difficult and longest passing options as long as there is good pressure and cover on the ball carrier and his nearest passing options.
The first defender should not run straight at the ball carrier, but should come in at


an angle that would force the ball carrier to pass back or to attack toward our covering defenders or toward a touchline. This makes the opponent's attack predictable and easy to read by covering defenders.

When the attacker has been contained, but still maintains possession of


the ball, the defender would do well to force the attacker to move to the side or even backwards. By forcing laterally, the supporting defenders can gain time to recover. Once recovered, the supporting defenders can enhance their positions as they have more time to adjust. An attacker that is allowed to go forward, causes the whole team to adjust their vertical defensive positions.

If the defender can force the attacker to go backwards, the defender must


try to maintain close pressure to keep the attacker from opening up space.

The supporting defence should use this opportunity to push forward as well, compressing the attack away from it's own goal. If the on ball pressure is not there, then the supporting defence would do well not to compress as the attacker will have time and space to find and take advantage of the defensive weak spots.
The 1st defender, in applying pressure to the attacking ball-handler, should:
Delay
Staggered stance, alternating front and back foot, feet shoulder width


apart, legs bent, body bent, on your toes (don't get flat-footed).

Feints and stabs but do not commit until ball-carrier makes a mistake.
Concentrate on player, not the ball, look at ball carrier's hips, not his feet or upper body.
With peripheral vision, see the space between the ball and ball carrier. If


the ball gets away from feet:

Deny
Deny the shot;
Deny penetration by denying "through" spaces which ball carrier desires to penetrate.
Close distance between self and ball carrier. Get close enough to force


ball carrier to alter course of attack and to force his head down to concentrate on not losing possession of the ball.

Choose angle of approach to guide ball carrier away from dangerous


space.

Block any attempted shot.
Destroy



Win possession by stepping between ball carrier and ball if ball gets away from his feet.

Tackle also if the ball carrier allows ball to be between his own feet. Tackles


should be fully committed through centre of ball carrier's position.

The 2


nd defenders, (those next nearest to the ball), are those who are marking up to close passing options. They must cover the space behind their teammate who is pressuring the ball; and if numbers are up than extra defender might decide to risk double teaming the ball carrier to win the ball.


The 3

rd defender provides Balance - the 3rd and other defenders cover deep and attacking spaces which may be used by the opponent to switch their point of attack, for example, by playing to the opposite wing.


This is what most defenders in the MLS need to understand, our backs seem to forget.

This is what our players seem to be taught;

1. Stare into space, untill the attacker is well into you own half;
2. Then once the attacker is almost in the box, start staring at the ball;
3. when the ball carrier is almost in position to take a good shot, then lunge at him awkwardly, ( or as Wynne like to do give him a two handed push right infront of the ref)
4. if by some miracle you have gained posession of the ball dilidaly in your own end;
5. then if you feel like it, when enough time has passed, then huff the ball up the field, the best option would be right at the opposing midfileders feet so that they can quickly set up a new attack, then go back to principal one;
6. to time to time wonder way up field and do not hurry to get back to defend until the opposition attack is well under way and hopefully almost in your own box.

Shaughno
02-09-2009, 02:37 PM
YAY negativity. :D

How much longer is the off season? How many more "Tyrone and Marco blow chunks" threads can we have?

trane
02-09-2009, 02:41 PM
^ I did not say Tyrone and Marco suck, I do not think that they are horrible, I think defenders in this league are horrible overall.

olegunnar
02-09-2009, 02:44 PM
^ I did not say Tyrone and Marco suck, I do not think that they are horrible, I think defenders in this league are horrible overall.

I agree, which is why I'm advocating more scoring over more defense.
Our defense is servicable in this league. I think too many of us are used to "higher" leagues where defense is more important. This isn't the EPL, or La Liga, etc. etc. This is the MLS.

MLS is a scoring league. We were 2nd worst in scoring which is why we missed the playoffs.

That's not to say I think we should stand pat with our defense, it could use improvement, but it's not #1 on my personal prefernce list.

Shaughno
02-09-2009, 02:53 PM
I agree, which is why I'm advocating more scoring over more defense.
Our defense is servicable in this league. I think too many of us are used to "higher" leagues where defense is more important. This isn't the EPL, or La Liga, etc. etc. This is the MLS.

MLS is a scoring league. We were 2nd worst in scoring which is why we missed the playoffs.

That's not to say I think we should stand pat with our defense, it could use improvement, but it's not #1 on my personal prefernce list.


I still stand by my original case, from before Velez had played 2 games in a TFC shirt. He's a RB, DON'T PLAY HIM AT CB. ;)

trane
02-09-2009, 02:54 PM
^ There is merit to your argument. On the other hand if we could be shut down defensive club I truly believe we could dominate this leauge, as the attackers are not very creative. But that would take more then a solid back four, but a team commitment to defense. The good thing about that you do not need as much tallent.

Shaughno
02-09-2009, 02:56 PM
We also had severe problems moving the ball from our midfield, up field. That puts unneeded pressure on our defense as well.

trane
02-09-2009, 03:00 PM
^ I agree, defense is always a team thing. yes the backs are very important but there is only so much that they can do by themselves. In a 4-5-1 in particular, you start defending at midfield.

pepher
02-09-2009, 03:07 PM
This is what most defenders in the MLS need to understand, our backs seem to forget.

This is what our players seem to be taught;

1. Stare into space, untill the attacker is well into you own half;
2. Then once the attacker is almost in the box, start staring at the ball;
3. when the ball carrier is almost in position to take a good shot, then lunge at him awkwardly, ( or as Wynne like to do give him a two handed push right infront of the ref)
4. if by some miracle you have gained posession of the ball dilidaly in your own end;
5. then if you feel like it, when enough time has passed, then huff the ball up the field, the best option would be right at the opposing midfileders feet so that they can quickly set up a new attack, then go back to principal one;
6. to time to time wonder way up field and do not hurry to get back to defend until the opposition attack is well under way and hopefully almost in your own box.
[/LEFT]

lol...

olegunnar
02-09-2009, 03:12 PM
^ There is merit to your argument. On the other hand if we could be shut down defensive club I truly believe we could dominate this leauge, as the attackers are not very creative. But that would take more then a solid back four, but a team commitment to defense. The good thing about that you do not need as much tallent.

I agree with this 100%. I'm not trying to discount the importance of defense, I just think that the quick fix is offense, rather than spedning the money and time and effort trying to teach MLS caliber players how to defend as a team.

I would say though that our lack of scoring forced us to take chances which left us vulnerable to counters. GolTV has a Paul James segment where he analyses parts of games. One they show frequently is Marvell making a run against Houston and getting caught upfield. 1 turnover and 3 passes later Houston has scored on us.

If we could move the ball forward in "safe" increments our defending would improve immensley. As it stood though the past two years we'd need a field long run from a full back to mount any attacks on goal....especially on the road.

trane
02-09-2009, 03:20 PM
^ Agree. I think Shuaghno is pointing the same thing as well. Posession and inteligent movement up the field contributes greatly to defense, it helps you keep your shape, and staying in good defensive positions for one. I like outisde backs moving the ball up, most Italian and EPL teams have the same thing to time to time, Evra/Zambrota/Grosso ect., but it has to be proparly done, and the rest of the team needs to compesate so as not to leave space for the atttackers to counter.

Shaughno
02-09-2009, 03:23 PM
Fucking agreed. :D

trane
02-09-2009, 03:26 PM
^ What I would like you guys to explain to me, why MLS teams seem to have such a hard time understading/executing such basic fundametal play? I realy would like someone to explain why hundrends of professional players just seem not to get it. What is it? Managment/Coaching?

Shaughno
02-09-2009, 03:28 PM
Honestly, I don't know. Houston had shown glimpses of good defending over the years. Revs have a pretty solid back 3, the majority of the time.

It's almost like they abandon any prior training.

trane
02-09-2009, 03:29 PM
Honestly, I don't know. Houston had shown glimpses of good defending over the years. Revs have a pretty solid back 3, the majority of the time.

It's almost like they abandon any prior training.


That is exaclty my thought. :noidea:

Shaughno
02-09-2009, 03:30 PM
There's times when I'm confidant my local rep teams would out-defend most MLS teams.

jloome
02-09-2009, 03:31 PM
It's not that, it's a lack of cohesion. It's all well and good to talk about incremental buildup when you're viewing the game top-down from the stands. But getting used to playing with other guys at eye-level isn't just about recognizing the colour of shirt they have on.

Teams that can dictate the pace of the game by movement do so because they know each other's tendencies and characteristics. ld have drifted to this poisiton to help him".

If a centre half knows where his fullbacks and defensive midfielder are going to be, his short distribution options become much more secure. You're not going to get that just through assignments; but hopefully this year will be more cohesive as a result of having so many returning players.

Shaughno
02-09-2009, 03:34 PM
Agreed jloome, but at the same time, I've seen rec league teams come together in less time to form a 'bonded' team. These guys are professionals and are supposedly some of the best at their profession. How does one go from NCAA where teams have ever changing rosters, similarily to the MLS, yet still can form a cohesive team to the MLS where it seems very few teams can form a fully cohesive squad?

trane
02-09-2009, 03:34 PM
Jloome Agreed, that is certainly part of it. But it seems to be a league wide problem. Houston and New England ( most of the time) being the only exception. Tournover is certainly part of the problem.


And what Shugs said.

ExiledRed
02-09-2009, 03:37 PM
MLS is a scoring league. We were 2nd worst in scoring which is why we missed the playoffs.


Exactly,

Our perforated midfield, piss poor attack, and crappy finishing had everything to do with our misfortune.

Concentrating on defence like its going to make a slight difference to our goalscoring rate, and get us into the playoffs on tight 1-0 victories is nonsense.

Shaughno
02-09-2009, 03:38 PM
Bang on Ian.

trane
02-09-2009, 03:40 PM
Exactly,

Our perforated midfield, piss poor attack, and crappy finishing had everything to do with our misfortune.

Concentrating on defence like its going to make a slight difference to our goalscoring rate, and get us into the playoffs on tight 1-0 victories is nonsense.


On top of our porous defence. Wow, our future is bright. :drinking:

Shaughno
02-09-2009, 03:41 PM
But our defense was really only porous away from home. ;)

trane
02-09-2009, 03:43 PM
^ On a serious note, Exiled, that also goes somewhat to a general lack of cohesion as a team, poor passing, poor buildup, ect. ect. ect.

trane
02-09-2009, 03:43 PM
But our defense was really only porous away from home. ;)

True. We made some mistakes at home, but for the most part it was solid, you are right.

Shaughno
02-09-2009, 03:45 PM
And now with Vitti and Barret up front, we should be fine. :p

trane
02-09-2009, 03:48 PM
^ Its promissing. I have to say that.

olegunnar
02-09-2009, 03:58 PM
^ What I would like you guys to explain to me, why MLS teams seem to have such a hard time understading/executing such basic fundametal play? I realy would like someone to explain why hundrends of professional players just seem not to get it. What is it? Managment/Coaching?

I blame the NCAA. It's how they play the game. No defense.
http://www.ncaa.com/brackets/2008/ncaa_bracket_DI_soccer_men.html
there's the brackets from last year's tournament. 5-0 4-3,7-0,3-2 all typical scores.
The 1/4s were a 3-2, a 5-0 and two 1-0
I think in the US scoring has been emphasised as a way to improve the popularity among the unwashed masses. In that way from a young age they're all concerned about scoring and not defending.

It's like trying to coach basketball, and all the kids want to do is jack up 3s and try to dunk. No interest in the fundamentals/finer points of the game.

trane
02-09-2009, 04:00 PM
^ That is sort off what I had suspected was a big part of the problem.