The mystery CB in England

[Stryker]

So umm.. "the kid" Mo and Carver are trying to get out of England.
I guess we'll know monday afternoon if we're getting him or not.
Hopefully this spot Dunni just freed up has something to do with it.

Just posting something to think about. :)

[Keegan]

David Edgar?

Nawww probably some backup in League 1 who we are going to sign for max salary

[Blizzard]

So umm.. "the kid" Mo and Carver are trying to get out of England.
I guess we'll know monday afternoon if we're getting him or not.
Hopefully this spot Dunni just freed up has something to do with it.

Just posting something to think about. :)

I'm wondering if our new CB could be from Wales as opposed to England.

[T_Mizz]

David Edgar?

Nawww probably some backup in League 1 who we are going to sign for max salary
I would love that, obviously the former:canada:

[Stryker]

Hmmm Im not sure how I'd feel about getting Edgar.
He'd have to be a DP and I'm of the opinion that the DP spot should be saved for a forward.
But then again if we don't have anyone on the radar maybe we should use it and hope for changes in the DP/salary cap for next season.

[London]

from watching the match today, it was implied that edgar was close to signing an extention

[T_Mizz]

Damn as a TFC fan I'm dissappointed in that^
But as a Geordie fan and a fan of David Edgar that's great news

[T_Mizz]

Hmmm Im not sure how I'd feel about getting Edgar.
He'd have to be a DP and I'm of the opinion that the DP spot should be saved for a forward.
But then again if we don't have anyone on the radar maybe we should use it and hope for changes in the DP/salary cap for next season.
I think we'd be able to knock it down a bit via allocation cash

[rocker]

why is monday afternoon a key deadline for getting this mystery player?

there are no transfer deadlines into MLS tomorrow.

[London]

^^^ any player under contract is locked up until the summer transfer i believe

[ccopela]

why is monday afternoon a key deadline for getting this mystery player?

there are no transfer deadlines into MLS tomorrow.

In fact it has always been more likely that any signing from Europe is more likely to happen a couple weeks or months after Monday because teams are done with transfers and can see who might be expendable. Hence how we got ricketts, robbo and welsh

[Nuvinho]

If Mo was ready to move Dunny, something must be certain. I don't think he would of moved Dunny, if he only had a "maybe" about this mysterious CB.

Remember, we don't have to be cap compliant til March.

[Stryker]

Seeing as a couple have objected as to the main premise of the thread, I double checked it on wiki and it would appear that they're correct.


The transfer window of a given football association governs only international transfers into that football association. International transfers out of an association are always possible to those associations that have an open window. The transfer window of the association that the player is leaving does not have to be open.

[zeelaw]

I hope Edgar stays at Newcastle so its better for the CMNT.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I would seriously assume we are not going to sign him, its wishful thinking at best

[giambac]

So umm.. "the kid" Mo and Carver are trying to get out of England.
I guess we'll know monday afternoon if we're getting him or not.
Hopefully this spot Dunni just freed up has something to do with it.

Just posting something to think about. :)

another recruit from Engalnd?? I thought MO was branching out to SA???:noidea:

[Shaughno]

another recruit from Engalnd?? I thought MO was branching out to SA???:noidea:


Why does it matter if the player is from South Africa or South Korea? As long as the player works with our league restrictions, is willing to play here and is worth his value on the pitch, I couldn't give two fucks if King Giambac was on the fucking pitch himself! :rolleyes:

[tfc]

another recruit from Engalnd?? I thought MO was branching out to SA???:noidea:

What is up with you and caring where guys come from? the real question is: CAN HE PLAY FOOTBALL?! if he can, i don't give a sweet fack where he's from. And we don't even have that many people from England anyways, who do we have, Dichio and Ricketts? Thats it!

We have more guys from SA than England haha Give your head a shake.

[nascarguy]

we will find out if we get a player from england by the end of today maybe by noon

[Razcle]

I couldn't give two fucks if King Giambac was on the fucking pitch himself! :rolleyes:

Don't you think if Giambac was good enough he wouldn't be on the RPBs site complaining about players nationalities and he would be working the flanks for TFC in training camp. Remember we need quality, and I don't know if he will cut it.

[rocker]

we will find out if we get a player from england by the end of today maybe by noon

unless you have some insider information, as mentioned above, there's nothing special about today. We can get players from England or anywhere up until April 15, which is the end of the window to bring players into MLS.

Remember Dichio had a contract in England up until April of 2007, when he was in negotiations with TFC. He was released by his request from his English contract and joined TFC right at the April 15th deadline.

[Shaughno]

Don't you think if Giambac was good enough he wouldn't be on the RPBs site complaining about players nationalities and he would be working the flanks for TFC in training camp. Remember we need quality, and I don't know if he will cut it.


No way man, this guy obviously has the game on lock down. He knows exactly what is wrong and knows exactly how to fix it. Get King G. on the pitch please. :D

[giambac]

Why does it matter if the player is from South Africa or South Korea? As long as the player works with our league restrictions, is willing to play here and is worth his value on the pitch, I couldn't give two fucks if King Giambac was on the fucking pitch himself! :rolleyes:


It doesn't matter where the dude is from. It's just that King Mo constantly blows smoke on how he is scouting in Brazil, in South America and then doesn't deliver. It seems his only contacts are in England and Scotland and that's all he brings in and the players he has brought from there just don't cut it.

I mean if he wants to only look at one part of the world fine. Then just stop taking all these trips to other parts of the world and say your scouting. He's probaly taking family vacation because he sure isn't bringing in the players. That's my beef.

Most of you guys get caught up with his stories about players he will bring in from his scouting trips. Let me guess it will be next year or maybe the yaerr after or maybe in year 10????????

[Shaughno]

So you just want him to sign some kid from South America because it's not the UK?

I'm sure there are plenty of players willing to come here, that doesn't mean they are good enough... or that we meet THEIR standards for leaving Brazil, Argentina, etc.

[H Bomb]

to paraphrase.

Danny D, Jimmy B, Robbo and Ricketts all don't cut it in this league.

We want any South American players, not just good ones.

[Beach_Red]

So you just want him to sign some kid from South America because it's not the UK?

I'm sure there are plenty of players willing to come here, that doesn't mean they are good enough... or that we meet THEIR standards for leaving Brazil, Argentina, etc.


He wants at least one player signed for each scouting trip - it's always so easy to spend someone else's money and do someone else's job.

I can imagine what happens when a guy goes to south America and says, "Hi, I'm from Canada and I'm looking for soccer players." I'm sure he gets taken seriously right away....:rolleyes:

[Ossington Mental Youth]

why more of you dont have him on your ignore list is beyond me.
he serves no purpose but to annoy

[TorontoBlades]

I love him, he actually brings up valid points sometimes that are at least good for conversation. I'd ignore 75% of the "yes-men" and "repeat complainers" on this board before I drop him

[Hitcho]

It doesn't matter where the dude is from. It's just that King Mo constantly blows smoke on how he is scouting in Brazil, in South America and then doesn't deliver. It seems his only contacts are in England and Scotland and that's all he brings in and the players he has brought from there just don't cut it.

I mean if he wants to only look at one part of the world fine. Then just stop taking all these trips to other parts of the world and say your scouting. He's probaly taking family vacation because he sure isn't bringing in the players. That's my beef.

Most of you guys get caught up with his stories about players he will bring in from his scouting trips. Let me guess it will be next year or maybe the yaerr after or maybe in year 10????????

first of all, Mo might well be blowing a smoke screen rather than smoke up the fans' asses - ever think of that?

as for your statement that "the players he has brought in from {England} just haven't cut it", where do Brennan, Robbo, Dichio and Ricketts fit into your assertion?! the only players from the English system who have flopped I can think of right now (there may be more) are Welsh and Robert. Welsh was a squad filling gamble in season 1 and Robert was a French international good enough to rip MLS a new one, but just couldn't give a toss about trying to make an impact - hardly Mo's fault, and he binned the lazy bugger asap when things went south.

as usual, you're way off with your negative ranting about all things TFC. :rolleyes:

[ExiledRed]

I can imagine what happens when a guy goes to south America and says, "Hi, I'm from Canada and I'm looking for soccer players." I'm sure he gets taken seriously right away....:rolleyes:

Now you're being a little bit negative.

You forgot that we are offering these guys up to $150,000 a year to play professional football.

How could they refuse?

[Shaughno]

Because I get more enjoyment reading his posts, then any single other poster on the board. ;)

[Shaughno]

Now you're being a little bit negative.

You forgot that we are offering these guys up to $150,000 a year to play professional football.

How could they refuse?


I dunno, bigger salary and a chance to play in sunny spain, italy, etc... or stay home in their country and make probably the same amount of money as the MLS, without the hassle.

[Derko]

Well there goes another legitimate thread down the drain because people take opinion as an insult, my advice is to read between the lines, Giambac himself has admitted he likes to post things for the reaction value, to get a rise out of people.

I don't really care where a CB comes from as long as he produces results and plays hard and consistent. My rational opinion!!

[Hitcho]

John Molinaro is viewing this thread - are you planning a piece on Mo and hsi scouting based on giambac's ranting, John?!! :D:D:D

[Shaughno]

Well there goes another legitimate thread down the drain because people take opinion as an insult, my advice is to read between the lines, Giambac himself has admitted he likes to post things for the reaction value, to get a rise out of people.

I don't really care where a CB comes from as long as he produces results and plays hard and consistent. My rational opinion!!


So do about 75% of the members on this board, they just don't admit it. ;)

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Because I get more enjoyment reading his posts, then any single other poster on the board. ;)


masochist

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I love him, he actually brings up valid points sometimes that are at least good for conversation. I'd ignore 75% of the "yes-men" and "repeat complainers" on this board before I drop him


I found that the few points he brought up (which were surprisingly good) were few and far in between, that more often then not he was just as bad as the repeat complainers/yes men. The benefits did not outweigh the negatives

[rocker]

i blocked giambac long ago. I only know he's still here cuz you cunts keep quoting his messages! ;)

[Stryker]

I feel dirty for having created a thread Giambac felt compelled to take part in. :(

[ExiledRed]

I dunno, bigger salary and a chance to play in sunny spain, italy, etc... or stay home in their country and make probably the same amount of money as the MLS, without the hassle.

I was being sarcastic.

[Beach_Red]

Now you're being a little bit negative.

You forgot that we are offering these guys up to $150,000 a year to play professional football.

How could they refuse?

I like to think of it as realistic ;).

The problem is, as a new team that's not even in the US, we probably have to offer $150,000 to players that other leagues are offering $100,000. And agents will be offering up every wonky knee and head case they have, it's really buyer beware.

It won't be a problem forever, but it's a factor now. It's like some hockey team in Siberia offering a guy $150,000 when he could get $100,000 in the AHL (and be close to home) or even in Sweden or Switzerland. Maybe someday that Russian league will be a lot better and the same amount of money will do it, but it isn't there yet.

[Beach_Red]

I was being sarcastic.

I should have known......

[T_Mizz]

I think the real arguement from what I've heard from the guys on the footy show is you can get the same quality of player from south america as you could from England and since he's not used to making zillions of dollars in the highest paid leagues he'll play for less.
Also I'm not sure we have a single SOUTH American, lots of central american's but I'm not sure about south and I'm too lazy to actually check the roster

[Shaughno]

I was being sarcastic.

...and I jumped the gun. What else is new? :D

[rocker]

I think the real arguement from what I've heard from the guys on the footy show is you can get the same quality of player from south america as you could from England and since he's not used to making zillions of dollars in the highest paid leagues he'll play for less.


this may be true.. but it's just a theory to me right now rather than something universally applicable to all south americans. a lot of the south american talent MLS teams have signed has not exactly come "cheap" (Peralta in DC was making about as much as Ricketts, I believe) and didn't exactly blow the league away. NYRB and DC have experienced this.

the other problem is why would south americans play for less than they can get in MLS once they find out what players are making? schellotto is a good example. yes, he prob got less than he was worth but then knowing his value, he demanded much more and got a DP designation in the process.

I believe the best "value for money" (at least for american based teams) is American players. if people think south americans are cheap, look at some of the salaries of Americans.

[Plenty of Trout]

I think the real arguement from what I've heard from the guys on the footy show is you can get the same quality of player from south america as you could from England and since he's not used to making zillions of dollars in the highest paid leagues he'll play for less.
Also I'm not sure we have a single SOUTH American, lots of central american's but I'm not sure about south and I'm too lazy to actually check the roster


Then let's get it done -- sign that quality South American!!!

[T_Mizz]

True not saying it was correct just people seem to believe that England's salaries are inflated immensely
PS After checking the roster we DO NOT have any south americans on the roster

[Nuvinho]

so is there REALLY a CB coming, or its all spectulation??

[Hitcho]

so is there REALLY a CB coming, or its all spectulation??

I'd love to see a top CB arrive, but the bottom line is that goals against for us last season actually wasn't that bad. if you remove the last minute goals we were quite good league-wise. so if that stays the same this season, but we have more fire power uip front (De Ro and Vitti, if he comes) then we'll be a much better proposition. add in a more settled roster throughout pre-season and the season itself and we should hit the play-offs. can't wait to sample the atmoshere at bmo field for our first ever post season game - RED HOT!!!!

[Nuvinho]

The only reason why I am asking, is because the title of the thread somewhat implied that there is someone in the pipeline and today is the day we'll know if that person is coming or not.

Or is it just speculation that because the European window closes today, that there might be some news today

[TorontoBlades]

it was about the window that closes....but someone correctly posted that it only applies to the incoming club....so the european window effectively has no effect for us....only for outgoing players heading to Europe (or wherever else follows this format)

[olegunnar]

so is there REALLY a CB coming, or its all spectulation??

Well Big Bruva has said that Marshall and Velez are fighting it out for the "other CB spot", I have a hard time believing other means opposite Harmse or Robbo

[Nuvinho]

Well Big Bruva has said that Marshall and Velez are fighting it out for the "other CB spot", I have a hard time believing other means opposite Harmse or Robbo

damn BB, when I was chatting with him on friday....he asked me if I heard any new TFC rumours (like he didn't know).......I knew something was up....hahaha!!!

[olegunnar]

damn BB, when I was chatting with him on friday....he asked me if I heard any new TFC rumours (like he didn't know).......I knew something was up....hahaha!!!

I found it...from the This is IT thread


Exactly, a lot of people are easily satisfied and there is no one that can convince me that the defence does not need at least 1-2 good additions to make a real push for the cup.

The likes of Velez, Marshall etc should be fighting it out for "the other" CB spot.

[T_Mizz]

Damn why does this man speak in riddles haha

[giambac]

So you just want him to sign some kid from South America because it's not the UK?

I'm sure there are plenty of players willing to come here, that doesn't mean they are good enough... or that we meet THEIR standards for leaving Brazil, Argentina, etc.


No I don't want him to sign just any player becasue he is from argentina or SA. I want him to sign the best possible player available within our salary cap rules for the team. If that means he is from England or Scitland fine. Read my comment. I'm pissed that he is taking everyone for a ride and touring the world and using his scouting bullshit to justify it. He has proven he has no contacts in those parts of teh world and he is jsut waisting time and blowing smoke. If he jsut wants to sign English players then jjust travel to England and stop with the stories and waste of money.

This guy has fed us so much about getting a DP, about being close to signing a player from Portugal or SA or from somewher else and it never materializes. He doesn't have it.

[Shaughno]

Question for you then Giambac, how do you create contacts in a place you've never been to? Make some phone calls? Or do you take a trip to the country and start 'schmoozing' with the local clubs to put yourself in a better situation to create contacts?

[giambac]

first of all, Mo might well be blowing a smoke screen rather than smoke up the fans' asses - ever think of that?

as for your statement that "the players he has brought in from {England} just haven't cut it", where do Brennan, Robbo, Dichio and Ricketts fit into your assertion?! the only players from the English system who have flopped I can think of right now (there may be more) are Welsh and Robert. Welsh was a squad filling gamble in season 1 and Robert was a French international good enough to rip MLS a new one, but just couldn't give a toss about trying to make an impact - hardly Mo's fault, and he binned the lazy bugger asap when things went south.

as usual, you're way off with your negative ranting about all things TFC. :rolleyes:

Where do these guys fit in my assertion??????

Let's see - Year 1 - dead last in the league
Year 2 - 2nd last and lose in the CC to a lower divison league.

That's where they fit in my assertion. You think these guys are great but facts show that the palyers Mo brings in don't compare to player personnel on other teams. Columbus, Chicago etc have players from Argentina, Mexico etc.

[Phil]

As far as I know only 1 of the leagues transfer windows has to be open for a transfer to occur. If the MLS has it open and the English one is closed, the player can still come here as long as they are released to the club.

If that is true then the window closing today isn't a big deal.

[giambac]

I think the real arguement from what I've heard from the guys on the footy show is you can get the same quality of player from south america as you could from England and since he's not used to making zillions of dollars in the highest paid leagues he'll play for less.
Also I'm not sure we have a single SOUTH American, lots of central american's but I'm not sure about south and I'm too lazy to actually check the roster



BINGO!!!!!

[tfc]

Where do these guys fit in my assertion??????

Let's see - Year 1 - dead last in the league
Year 2 - 2nd last and lose in the CC to a lower divison league.

That's where they fit in my assertion. You think these guys are great but facts show that the palyers Mo brings in don't compare to player personnel on other teams. Columbus, Chicago etc have players from Argentina, Mexico etc.

giambac your logic is so shockingly flawed that it makes me feel stupid even reading it. i constantly wonder why you even bother posting considering nobody ever agrees with you.

Giambac: its OBVIOUS that every player mo brings in from Britain is shit, sign south americans cause they are better ...

What?! that makes no sense at all haha

[giambac]

Question for you then Giambac, how do you create contacts in a place you've never been to? Make some phone calls? Or do you take a trip to the country and start 'schmoozing' with the local clubs to put yourself in a better situation to create contacts?

I'll teel you how.

develop a scouting staff made up of international people (i.e Portugues, A south American, A mexican, an English, an Italian) who have conatcts in thos eparts of the world and who would be able to deliver. I mean Mo is the GM - he needs a staff of people who can do the travelling, the scouting and reposrt back to him. Don't give the excuse that the MLS is a small league and they can't afford it. TFC sells out every game, the mad $5 million on the sale of Edu. They have the money and the owners have deep pockets. Organize a good staff of people.


When Mo goes to Mexico or SA he doesn't have the respect otr contacts as one of their own who speak the language.

That's how I would do it rather than sending and wasting time with MO.

[Shaughno]

I'll teel you how.

develop a scouting staff made up of international people (i.e Portugues, A south American, A mexican, an English, an Italian) who have conatcts in thos eparts of the world and who would be able to deliver. I mean Mo is the GM - he needs a staff of people who can do the travelling, the scouting and reposrt back to him. Don't give the excuse that the MLS is a small league and they can't afford it. TFC sells out every game, the mad $5 million on the sale of Edu. They have the money and the owners have deep pockets. Organize a good staff of people.


When Mo goes to Mexico or SA he doesn't have the respect otr contacts as one of their own who speak the language.

That's how I would do it rather than sending and wasting time with MO.

And a great plan it is in theory. Theory doesn't always apply directly to real life situations. From what I understand, Mo has made a few contacts within Brazil on his first scouting trip. For you to directly assume he went, scouted players himself, without any help or direct contact of any clubs or scouts in the area, is just as stupid as everyone believing every article that gets published by newspapers and websites like MLS-Rumors.


The majority of Mo's contacts are in the UK. That much makes sense does it not? Since that's where he spent the majority of his life/career. So if he goes out looking elsewhere, he can always fall back on his UK plans... which to me, seems like he has done. He goes out, if he can't find the player he needs directly, he seems to revert to his UK contacts for signings.

Why do you automatically assume that Mo does all this stuff in the UK and goes to Brazil, etc. strictly for a vacation? You have no information to prove any of your stories that you ramble on about. Everything is based on your own speculation, which to be honest, is weak aside from a few good points here and there.

[Mikey]

Makes me happy.......that none of you lot are running the team. :D

[TorontoBlades]

If I was to recruit a player strictly based on race - sorry guys he would have to be Dutch, there I said it!

Not De Guzman Part Deux dutch, but like real dutch with that quality first touch....like the one that the likes of Bergkamp, Sneijder, Cruijff...all had, that I've never seen from any other player from another nationality....

I'm not sating a great first touch....lots of players have that....I'm saying sublime touches....mofos

[giambac]

And a great plan it is in theory. Theory doesn't always apply directly to real life situations. From what I understand, Mo has made a few contacts within Brazil on his first scouting trip. For you to directly assume he went, scouted players himself, without any help or direct contact of any clubs or scouts in the area, is just as stupid as everyone believing every article that gets published by newspapers and websites like MLS-Rumors.


The majority of Mo's contacts are in the UK. That much makes sense does it not? Since that's where he spent the majority of his life/career. So if he goes out looking elsewhere, he can always fall back on his UK plans... which to me, seems like he has done. He goes out, if he can't find the player he needs directly, he seems to revert to his UK contacts for signings.

Why do you automatically assume that Mo does all this stuff in the UK and goes to Brazil, etc. strictly for a vacation? You have no information to prove any of your stories that you ramble on about. Everything is based on your own speculation, which to be honest, is weak aside from a few good points here and there.

Let's do a comparison.

When the Blue Jays were first starting out they quicly realized that in order to get ahead of the more established teams they had to start scounting players in countries other than the traditional US Staes. They quickly formed a scouting staff of people from the Dominion Republic and started scouting for talent. Soon we had players like Alfredo Griffen, Garcie, Tony Frernades, George Bell who came here. It was becasue of the personal touch that these Domican satff had . It wasn't Paul Beeston or Pat Gillick who were doing the scouting.

Imn the same way Mo has to develop his staff and get people who speak the language and know the cities/towns in South America. That is a more effective way and I'm ceratin the results would be better. Sure can't be worse considering he is batting 0 when it comes to getting players from SA.

[Shaughno]

Stopped reading after Blue Jays, sorry. :D

[giambac]

Stopped reading after Blue Jays, sorry. :D

I know it's hard to comprehend and think outside the box:D

[Shaughno]

Definitely hard to make comparisons between sports and leagues that have no real correllation or points worth comparing. ;)

[giambac]

Definitely hard to make comparisons between sports and leagues that have no real correllation or points worth comparing. ;)

Nothing to do with the leagues or sports.

It's all about how to develop an effective scouting staff which TFC doesn't have. Maybe they should sit down and design a long term plan for the team. You know like i year 50 they can add a scout.............:cool:

[Beach_Red]

Nothing to do with the leagues or sports.

It's all about how to develop an effective scouting staff which TFC doesn't have. Maybe they should sit down and design a long term plan for the team. You know like i year 50 they can add a scout.............:cool:

Are you sure that's not what's going on? Are you sure none of the "scouting trips" were to look for scouts?

The Jays are actually a pretty good comparison, especially because they didn't become the Dominican Jays in the first two or three seasons. It took many more years to develop and they had the advantage of being in the top baseball league in the world, the one every kid in the Dominican wanted to play in.

So, in a way you're right, you just don't seem to believe your own argument.

[Shaughno]

So you're 100% confidant that there isn't a single scout on TFC's payroll?

Do youhave any more inside info, please? :D

[Hustle]

$150,000 and gloves on cold days... :)

[TFC 420]

what does Tim Regan do for TFC?

[giambac]

So you're 100% confidant that there isn't a single scout on TFC's payroll?

Do youhave any more inside info, please? :D
I'm sure Mo has one of his buddies... but that's about it.

How come we never hear about them or what they are doing or some of their findings???

Maybe because they don't exist!!!!!!

[Shaughno]

I'm sure Mo has one of his buddies... but that's about it.

How come we never hear about them or what they are doing or some of their findings???

Maybe because they don't exist!!!!!!

Should have read the post above yours before posting that. We had a player, turned scout, turned player again... last year. Or did you forget about that one? Seems not a single soul knew he was on TFC's salary until he got called up to play for us in defence.

Amazing huh, someone being employed without us knowing?! What a concept.

[giambac]

Should have read the post above yours before posting that. We had a player, turned scout, turned player again... last year. Or did you forget about that one? Seems not a single soul knew he was on TFC's salary until he got called up to play for us in defence.

Amazing huh, someone being employed without us knowing?! What a concept.

You just proved my point and argument.

We have playerr turned scout, turned player again..... That sums it up. We have nothing but a has been and that's why there are no findings.

to get decent talent (i'm not talking world class players because they would never come here) you need decent scouting. People who know where to look and where to go and who have contacts.

[Beach_Red]

I'm sure Mo has one of his buddies... but that's about it.

How come we never hear about them or what they are doing or some of their findings???

Maybe because they don't exist!!!!!!


You know, I know people here don't like it, but your Blue Jays comparison does work well. They finished last place for what, the first four seasons ('81 was the strike season so it was divided into two and they finished last in both) and under .500 for a couple more? But they had the same GM the whole time and made small improvements each year.

So, you're right, the team is on the right track!

[poppamidnight]

what does Tim Regan do for TFC?

lace em up when the red lights + alarms go off and 'pray' to not screw anything up? (PS - I STILL have no clue how some people on here tried to claim Reagan was better than Titus that match)

...hahaha but probably just watch weekend sets/tourney around Canada (possibly north america)

[Shaughno]

No, on the contrary sweetie, I proved your point wrong. We have scouts employed within TFC. One of them happened to be an ex-MLS player that we recalled when we were short on defenders. He was helping out as a scout before he 'retired' from playing professional football. He knows the league, the players and the managers very well. So in fact, he's probably a better person to have as a scout as not only does he know the league, but people around the league know his reputation as well.

So now that I've proved your ramblings wrong, what else would you like to go on about?



I'm sure Mo has one of his buddies... but that's about it.

How come we never hear about them or what they are doing or some of their findings???

Maybe because they don't exist!!!!!!

[tfc]

You just proved my point and argument.

We have playerr turned scout, turned player again..... That sums it up. We have nothing but a has been and that's why there are no findings.

to get decent talent (i'm not talking world class players because they would never come here) you need decent scouting. People who know where to look and where to go and who have contacts.

wtf are you even talking about, you know nothing about the organizational structure of TFC whatsoever, we could have the best scouting system in the entire league for all you know.

Guess what Giambac? TFC has SCOUTS in the college system, hence why we ended up after the draft with the BEST PROSPECTS.

[T_Mizz]

Giambac agrees with me?!? Judging by others' comments I'm not sure whther to feel pleased or insulted haha

[jloome]

wtf are you even talking about, you know nothing about the organizational structure of TFC whatsoever, we could have the best scouting system in the entire league for all you know.

Guess what Giambac? TFC has SCOUTS in the college system, hence why we ended up after the draft with the BEST PROSPECTS.

Wow, another thread derailed by the uniquely stupid ramblings of everyone's favourite Azzuri fan. It's called the IGNORE button, for fucks sake. His lack of synaptic response is probably genetic and therefore not his fault. My having to read it is rather annoying, however.

[Shaughno]

Wow, another thread derailed by the uniquely stupid ramblings of everyone's favourite Azzuri fan. It's called the IGNORE button, for fucks sake. His lack of synaptic response is probably genetic and therefore not his fault. My having to read it is rather annoying, however.


Oh come on, it's fun to keep him going. :cool:

[jloome]

Should have read the post above yours before posting that. We had a player, turned scout, turned player again... last year. Or did you forget about that one? Seems not a single soul knew he was on TFC's salary until he got called up to play for us in defence.

Amazing huh, someone being employed without us knowing?! What a concept.

There was a public announcement when they signed him. It was no secret; Giambac, like most people, does not have any idea how international scouting systems work. For one, each team does not generally employ a ton of scouts in the field; this is not champ manager.

There are regional scouts and there are specialists who scout youth players, and there are player agent-scouts, who locate talent then use their connections to place that talent. Additionally, there are agencies that do NOTHING BUT keep rosters of talent and measure year-to-year performance (like NHL Central Scouting).

Combine these things, and it becomes obvious that .... Giambac is an idiot and I have five minutes to kill at work.

None of this fits into the suggestion of a "scouting department." But you can bet that when Mo goes to Brazil, or to the Caribbean, he taps local expertise.

[T_Mizz]

No, on the contrary sweetie, I proved your point wrong. We have scouts employed within TFC. One of them happened to be an ex-MLS player that we recalled when we were short on defenders. He was helping out as a scout before he 'retired' from playing professional football. He knows the league, the players and the managers very well. So in fact, he's probably a better person to have as a scout as not only does he know the league, but people around the league know his reputation as well.

So now that I've proved your ramblings wrong, what else would you like to go on about?
In the interest of fairness Giambac is saying we need INTERNATIONAL scouts and Tim Regan seems to be an MLS scout, not saying we don't have them just saying Reagn doesn't seem to be one, now if only someone on this site knew about the people who work at TFC behind the scenes, perhaps someone without a stapler?:D

[Shaughno]

Combine these things, and it becomes obvious that .... Giambac is an idiot and I have five minutes to kill at work.



I agree with what you said, but I just found this part to be comedic gold. :lol:

[JDG]

Let's do a comparison.

When the Blue Jays were first starting out they quicly realized that in order to get ahead of the more established teams they had to start scounting players in countries other than the traditional US Staes. They quickly formed a scouting staff of people from the Dominion Republic and started scouting for talent. Soon we had players like Alfredo Griffen, Garcie, Tony Frernades, George Bell who came here. It was becasue of the personal touch that these Domican satff had . It wasn't Paul Beeston or Pat Gillick who were doing the scouting.

Imn the same way Mo has to develop his staff and get people who speak the language and know the cities/towns in South America. That is a more effective way and I'm ceratin the results would be better. Sure can't be worse considering he is batting 0 when it comes to getting players from SA.


When the Toronto FC were first starting out they quicly realized that in order to get ahead of the more established teams they had to start scounting players in countries other than the traditional US Staes. They quickly formed a scouting staff of people from the United Kingdom and started scouting for talent. Soon we had players like Jim Brennan, Danny Dichio, Carl Robinson, and Rohan Ricketts who came here. It was becasue of the personal touch that these British satff had . It wasn't Paul Beirne or Tom Anselmi who were doing the scouting.

Imn the same way Mo has to develop his staff and get people who speak the language and know the cities/towns in South America. That is a more effective way and I'm ceratin the results would be better. Sure can't be worse considering he is batting 0 when it comes to getting players from SA.


In time, the International variety that you so crave will come. Right now we're moving along at a good rate. We have fantastic networks in the UK. We've hired a full time scout for the United States, and Mo is forging relationships in Latin America, where we are apparently about to sign a contract that will bring a 23 year old striker from a top Argentinian team, here on loan.

You can try to sound as reasonable as you like on this issue, but it really just comes off as racist to me.
First you were totally apoplectic about Carver. I thought maybe you just thought he was a bad coach, but now I see it's really just that you don't want anyone from the UK whether they have the talent or not.

[Laurignano]

To be honest...I don't care where the players are from just as long as they are good and want to play here. Also, I would love to see our team one day produce a lot of Canadian Talent for the future of our National team.

[giambac]

Wow, another thread derailed by the uniquely stupid ramblings of everyone's favourite Azzuri fan. It's called the IGNORE button, for fucks sake. His lack of synaptic response is probably genetic and therefore not his fault. My having to read it is rather annoying, however.

jloome,

if i recall correctly it was you who made a post last season stating that at worse TFC would come 2nd in their division?????:noidea::drinking:

[giambac]

In the interest of fairness Giambac is saying we need INTERNATIONAL scouts and Tim Regan seems to be an MLS scout, not saying we don't have them just saying Reagn doesn't seem to be one, now if only someone on this site knew about the people who work at TFC behind the scenes, perhaps someone without a stapler?:D

You are correct again.

My argument and point is that we don't have international scouts who could find players in Mexico. in Sout america and in other parts of Europe. I'm not taliking about college scouts or NA scouts.

Guys like Shangou mis quote me or my sayings and talk about Reagan as being a scout. That's proves my point. That's all we have . To find players in SA you neeed international scouts who speak the language and know the countries.

People argue differnt points but they don't look at what I said.

Can someone name any international scouts we have?
Who are they
What's their names?
What part of the world are they scouting?

Thaty's my point, my argument?

[giambac]

When the Toronto FC were first starting out they quicly realized that in order to get ahead of the more established teams they had to start scounting players in countries other than the traditional US Staes. They quickly formed a scouting staff of people from the United Kingdom and started scouting for talent. Soon we had players like Jim Brennan, Danny Dichio, Carl Robinson, and Rohan Ricketts who came here. It was becasue of the personal touch that these British satff had . It wasn't Paul Beirne or Tom Anselmi who were doing the scouting.

Imn the same way Mo has to develop his staff and get people who speak the language and know the cities/towns in South America. That is a more effective way and I'm ceratin the results would be better. Sure can't be worse considering he is batting 0 when it comes to getting players from SA.


In time, the International variety that you so crave will come. Right now we're moving along at a good rate. We have fantastic networks in the UK. We've hired a full time scout for the United States, and Mo is forging relationships in Latin America, where we are apparently about to sign a contract that will bring a 23 year old striker from a top Argentinian team, here on loan.

You can try to sound as reasonable as you like on this issue, but it really just comes off as racist to me.
First you were totally apoplectic about Carver. I thought maybe you just thought he was a bad coach, but now I see it's really just that you don't want anyone from the UK whether they have the talent or not.

How is asking for a well represented international scouting staff being racist? To the contrary- I am asking for a staff made up of SA, European's and NA scouts. That's not racist my friend. They call it the United Nations.

[Shaughno]

And you Giambac, superfan of Toronto FC, are entitled to know every little detail within the offices of all MLSE and TFC employees.

[Shakes McQueen]

jloome,

if i recall correctly it was you who made a post last season stating that at worse TFC would come 2nd in their division?????:noidea::drinking:

So your last stand is to point out that a pre-season prediction he made was wrong?

Well done.

I have nothing else to add, that hasn't already been said. You have absolutely no clue how scouting works.

- Scott

[Shaughno]

So your last stand is to point out that a pre-season prediction he made was wrong?

Well done.

I have nothing else to add, that hasn't already been said. You have absolutely no clue how scouting works.

- Scott

On the contrary, he obviously knows that we need international scouts. Which he is 100% confident we do not have and that Mo does everything himself. :cool:

[ACSertL]

Elmander to TFC!!!!

What? Wrong thread??

:leaving:

[Shakes McQueen]

You are correct again.

My argument and point is that we don't have international scouts who could find players in Mexico. in Sout america and in other parts of Europe. I'm not taliking about college scouts or NA scouts.

Guys like Shangou mis quote me or my sayings and talk about Reagan as being a scout. That's proves my point. That's all we have . To find players in SA you neeed international scouts who speak the language and know the countries.

People argue differnt points but they don't look at what I said.

Can someone name any international scouts we have?
Who are they
What's their names?
What part of the world are they scouting?

Thaty's my point, my argument?

As jloome already explained to you, that isn't how scouting works. You seriously expect a little MLS club like Toronto FC to employ a small army of international scouts, all scouring the globe for talent?

Again - you don't understand how scouting works. Mo makes trips to these countries, and taps into the scouting networks there - that was the point of his recent trip to South America during the off-season.

And as for the scouting staff Toronto FC do employ, we don't know most of their names, and neither do you. The difference is, we aren't bitching about it, as though we are informed.

- Scott

[giambac]

And you Giambac, superfan of Toronto FC, are entitled to know every little detail within the offices of all MLSE and TFC employees.

I don't know.

That's why I'm asking the question and for a list of names.

Given that no one else seems to know of any, I'm incline dto beleieve we don't have any international scouts.

[werewolf]

Is it common to be able to name a team's scouts off the top of your head?

[giambac]

Is it common to be able to name a team's scouts off the top of your head?

No it's not.

But this is a big forum and is well represented by fans, supporters, and people from the inside. Some one should know of any if they exist.......

[Shaughno]

No it's not.

But this is a big forum and is well represented by fans, supporters, and people from the inside. Some one should know of any if they exist.......


And there are many LARGER clubs with hundreds of thousands of fans, who could maybe name one single scout.

You're grasping at straws g. ;)

[giambac]

And there are many LARGER clubs with hundreds of thousands of fans, who could maybe name one single scout.

You're grasping at straws g. ;)

No straws to grasp at.

Shaughno, the debate/argument is plan and simple. It is black or white. There is no inbetween and no need for discussion.

Either TFC has international scouts or they don't.

If they do, then that is great and I will acknowledge that I was wrong. But If they don't have international scouts then they should look into it. It can't hurt to have an international staff. You can't argue against this.
Everyone says the MLS is a professional league. MLSE and MO Johnson has told us they are comitted to winning. MLSE has deep pockets, they sell out every game so I hope they would have one and if not they should definetly look into it. PLain and Simple, no straw grasping my friend.;)

[Pachuco]

I gotta say, when Tim Regan was signed we all heard about it. And we knew he was our one and only scout at the time. I haven't heard of anything else since then so I don't think it's so wrong to assume we don't have international scouts. In fact, Mo himself says he visits South America (for pina coladas may I add) but I've never heard mention that TFC has scouts in South America or anywhere else in the world.

Not many fans in the world knows their scouts names, however, they usually know if they are scouting certain parts of the world or whether they have their eye on certain players.

I think the question can easily be answered if someone would just tells us whether TFC has any representation right now at the South American U20s being played in Venezuela. Because if we don't, then we surely don't have scouts since this that is obviously the most important place to be at right now as an international scout.

Now, I know we have our eye on Vitti, but I'm convinced that came of his play at BMO field (which is also part of scouting). I just wondering sometimes whether we actually have sent anyone over seas.

[jloome]

So your last stand is to point out that a pre-season prediction he made was wrong?

Well done.

I have nothing else to add, that hasn't already been said. You have absolutely no clue how scouting works.

- Scott

Did I even make that prediction? Fucked if I can remember. Giambac, I've blocked you. If you want to make assertions about me directly to me, you'll have to do it by personal message.

Although as people obviously far more intelligent have pointed out, making a bad prediction on a season outcome has nothing to do with scouting. Pathetic attempt to discredit, really, from someone who has absolutely zero useful to say or any credibility themselves.

[jloome]

Oh and just so you're all aware, Giambac is a liar, as well as an idiot. Here is the thread of last season's pre-season predictions, in which I picked the team to finish 12 out of 14, with 37 points:

http://64.13.252.151/forums/showthread.php?t=7191

[Beach_Red]

.

Either TFC has international scouts or they don't.




It's already been covered, but really, do you think TFC need to pay people to find undiscovered talent around the world?

Or do you think the travels might be to talk to agents about players who might be willing to move to Canada?

[Flipityflu]

hmmmm, we operate in a small economy league, with a salary cap of 2.5 million, and we are expected to have international scouting? i don't think we have them and it doesn't bother me either. how much money do you think teams in MLS make exactly?


pssst, we ain't AC Milan

[Corpand]

I just hope we get some decent news before the weekend...
Anyone spot any trialists during the practice today?

[Pachuco]

hmmmm, we operate in a small economy league, with a salary cap of 2.5 million, and we are expected to have international scouting? i don't think we have them and it doesn't bother me either. how much money do you think teams in MLS make exactly?


pssst, we ain't AC Milan

huh? when's the last time you checked what MLSE is worth?

actually, the fact that it's a league with a salary cap of 2.5 million makes it that much easier for MLSE to fork out money for management and scouting. Salary cap has nothing to do with it.

[TFCREDNWHITE]

Do we have any spotters or eyes and ears in Florida for training camp???

Is anyone going down there??

[BFin]

1) There is no point to a full international scouting staff when the players we would be bringing in would be making barely more than the scout who signed them. Our problem is not a lack of knowledge of the players, but a lack of them wanting to play at the price we are offering, the field we have, and in Canada. On top of that, compounding the problem would be that our scouting would not be nearly as strong as the larger clubs scouting internationally, so what talent exactly are we going to get that the bigger, wealthier clubs have passed over? Finally, why pay for scouts who will be finding players with lifespans of under three years in the MLS? I understand not all internationals will leave, but if it is someone worthy of having an entire scouting staff for, they most likely are an up and comer who will be playing as a showcase to move to Europe.
2) MLSE sells out games at 20 dollars a seat, that is not big bucks, nor is it big bucks enough to have a full international scouting staff. The fact that you're missing is that not only do we have to pay these people, but we must also encur their yearly expenses. Unless you want to pay Maple Leafs prices for tickets, you're nuts.
3) No one is debating the fact that we do not have an international scouting system, they are calling you an idiot for expecting one, or expecting them to know the name of one if we had them hidden somewhere.

Read others posts before you criticize them for not reading yours.

[Whoop]

Using my experience, I would say it wouldn't make sense for TFC to have an army of international scouts as the return on the investment on finding players would not be worth it. i.e. Say spending $50,000 on a scout in Europe when the odds of finding a guy in Europe that will sign for TFC to be pretty slim.

If I'm running TFC I would have three-four full-time college scouts who are based in North America, two in the West, two in the East. These guys would cross-check. And in the summer they would be Pro Scouts, i.e. watch MLS games to maybe see if there is any player that would be deemed worthy of picking up at a later date.

As for internationally, I would develop a variety of "bird dogs", guys not on the TFC payroll but possibly scouts from other teams, independents, etc. who would recommend players that they would think would be interested in signing with TFC. If said player signs with TFC, the scout would get a finder's fee.

But the focus of the scouting staff would be identifying North American talent from the college ranks as that's where the majority of the players from the MLS come from.

[Whoop]

Oh and I would employ 2-3 scouts in Canada, looking at the various youth levels, to recruit players for the Academy.

[T_Mizz]

Oh and I would employ 2-3 scouts in Canada, looking at the various youth levels, to recruit players for the Academy.
Why the Hell are you not running this team? Seriously those are the best two posts I think I've ever read

[Flipityflu]

huh? when's the last time you checked what MLSE is worth?

actually, the fact that it's a league with a salary cap of 2.5 million makes it that much easier for MLSE to fork out money for management and scouting. Salary cap has nothing to do with it.


LMAO

what has how much MLSE is worth have anything to do with anything. TFC should be a self suficient part of the empire.

they made $2 million last season. and with that 2 million, do you really expect them to pony up for international scouting when there are much cheaper options?


give your head a shake

[T_Mizz]

well as discussed before I believe by Oldtimer there are tricks around reporting profit especially to Forbes

[Whoop]

The fact of the matter is that 70-75% of the players, whether we like it or not, come from the US college ranks. That's where the focus should be.

TFC as a Canadian club should also focus on attracting the best Canadian players to play at their Academy.

Having an international scouting staff is not prudent. It sounds sexy but not feasible. For international players, you're better off becoming friends with agents who have more power than anyone else in terms of placing their players.

[T_Mizz]

The fact of the matter is that 70-75% of the players, whether we like it or not, come from the US college ranks. That's where the focus should be.

TFC as a Canadian club should also focus on attracting the best Canadian players to play at their Academy.

Having an international scouting staff is not prudent. It sounds sexy but not feasible. For international players, you're better off becoming friends with agents who have more power than anyone else in terms of placing their players.
I agreed with everything up until here, until the MLS changes the rules for signing academy players having a good academy isn't worth the effort

[Whoop]

a) Better to be prepared in case the rules are changed.

b) And you could argue that TFC has an obligation to be part of the process, or have a hand in, developing Canadian talent.

If you argue that it's not worth effort, then at the very least have scouts looking players across Ontario.

[giambac]

I gotta say, when Tim Regan was signed we all heard about it. And we knew he was our one and only scout at the time. I haven't heard of anything else since then so I don't think it's so wrong to assume we don't have international scouts. In fact, Mo himself says he visits South America (for pina coladas may I add) but I've never heard mention that TFC has scouts in South America or anywhere else in the world.

Not many fans in the world knows their scouts names, however, they usually know if they are scouting certain parts of the world or whether they have their eye on certain players.

I think the question can easily be answered if someone would just tells us whether TFC has any representation right now at the South American U20s being played in Venezuela. Because if we don't, then we surely don't have scouts since this that is obviously the most important place to be at right now as an international scout.

Now, I know we have our eye on Vitti, but I'm convinced that came of his play at BMO field (which is also part of scouting). I just wondering sometimes whether we actually have sent anyone over seas.


Great post.
Your bang on.

Like I said previously, the goal is not to attempt to bring supertars here becasue in all likelihood they wouldn't come to the mLS.

The U20 SA cup is full of prospects some who will move on to bigger careers in Europe. However there are also players on the fringe who could perform well in the mLS. It is these players that we shouldbe looking at.

Is TFC represented at this tournament? Who is there? Is Mo there? Are any scouts there? This is an international showcase. I guess Mo has his scouts watching it on Goal TV and if he likes a player they will send him and his agent a postcard:eek:

[billygrieveuk]

from watching the match today, it was implied that edgar was close to signing an extention
if newcastle go down, edgar stays for sure

[Shaughno]

Great post.
Your bang on.

Like I said previously, the goal is not to attempt to bring supertars here becasue in all likelihood they wouldn't come to the mLS.

The U20 SA cup is full of prospects some who will move on to bigger careers in Europe. However there are also players on the fringe who could perform well in the mLS. It is these players that we shouldbe looking at.

Is TFC represented at this tournament? Who is there? Is Mo there? Are any scouts there? This is an international showcase. I guess Mo has his scouts watching it on Goal TV and if he likes a player they will send him and his agent a postcard:eek:

Can you prove that TFC isn't represented there? I don't mean directly either. Just because we may or may not have scouts outside the MLS, doesn't mean we aren't in contact with agents, scouts or team representatives there feeding us information.

You don't have to have a 'scout' to find good players. It's all about networking and getting your name/team known in the regions you want information from.

Read Whoopee's posts carefully as he knows better than I'd say 98% of the people on this board. ;)

[Pachuco]

LMAO

what has how much MLSE is worth have anything to do with anything. TFC should be a self suficient part of the empire.

they made $2 million last season. and with that 2 million, do you really expect them to pony up for international scouting when there are much cheaper options?


give your head a shake

I guess you are right, with your dumb ass theory TFC wouldn't exist. TFC made no money in 2004, but they sure invested money in bringing a team to Toronto didn't they? where did they get the money? wait for it...

FROM MLSE'S POCKETS!!!

you have to invest money to get money in return. If TFC finds a young player in South America or anywhere else in the world, that turns out to be a gem, how much money do you think they'll get in return? let's see, they sold Edu for how much? Never mind what that player can actually do for the team and how many jerseys he can sell.

I gave my head a shake, even spun around in circles, still came to the conclusion that TFC can afford a fucking scout.

[Shakes McQueen]

Is TFC represented at this tournament? Who is there? Is Mo there? Are any scouts there? This is an international showcase. I guess Mo has his scouts watching it on Goal TV and if he likes a player they will send him and his agent a postcard:eek:

The difference between you, and most other people here, is that because you don't know the answer, you assume the answer must be "zero".

Again - we don't know what kind of scouting network Toronto FC uses, and neither do you. But how does it possibly make sense to say that since we don't know who they are, there must not be any?

- Scott

[Pachuco]

Using my experience, I would say it wouldn't make sense for TFC to have an army of international scouts as the return on the investment on finding players would not be worth it. i.e. Say spending $50,000 on a scout in Europe when the odds of finding a guy in Europe that will sign for TFC to be pretty slim.

If I'm running TFC I would have three-four full-time college scouts who are based in North America, two in the West, two in the East. These guys would cross-check. And in the summer they would be Pro Scouts, i.e. watch MLS games to maybe see if there is any player that would be deemed worthy of picking up at a later date.

As for internationally, I would develop a variety of "bird dogs", guys not on the TFC payroll but possibly scouts from other teams, independents, etc. who would recommend players that they would think would be interested in signing with TFC. If said player signs with TFC, the scout would get a finder's fee.

But the focus of the scouting staff would be identifying North American talent from the college ranks as that's where the majority of the players from the MLS come from.

35 percent of the league's players were born in 46 countries outside the United States. Without knowing the precise numbers, it is clear that, just over three months later, this diversity has accelerated still further.

Gone forever, it seems, are the days when the draft was seen as the best way to boost a roster. Indeed, given the development of the way teams recruit players, coupled with the increasing tendency for the best young players to opt out of the draft process entirely by signing with foreign clubs -- more than ever before, organizations are looking further and further afield for new blood.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=3512327&type=blogEntry

I'm hoping TFC isn't listening to you guys and they ARE actually paying attention to international scouting. It's pretty short sided to suggest that TFC should only hire scouts to track college players.

[jloome]

35 percent of the league's players were born in 46 countries outside the United States. Without knowing the precise numbers, it is clear that, just over three months later, this diversity has accelerated still further.

Gone forever, it seems, are the days when the draft was seen as the best way to boost a roster. Indeed, given the development of the way teams recruit players, coupled with the increasing tendency for the best young players to opt out of the draft process entirely by signing with foreign clubs -- more than ever before, organizations are looking further and further afield for new blood.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=3512327&type=blogEntry

I'm hoping TFC isn't listening to you guys and they ARE actually paying attention to international scouting. It's pretty short sided to suggest that TFC should only hire scouts to track college players.

Pachuco, I think you're missing the point that people are trying to make; no club at TFC's level hires international scouts FULL TIME. You contract them for a job, if they're regional, or you build contacts with those who place players either directly as player agents or as advisors to sports management companies.

Honestly, there are reams of professional scouting databases these guys can tap as well. There's no need for it to be a full-time job and, based on the relative salary expedentiure for the scouts compared to the overall salary outlay for the number of people they would sign, it makes no sense. It's why only the biggest clubs -- and usually even then via affiliate domestic sides -- have scouts who work overseas full time.

Think about it: Let's say TFC hires a full-timer for Africa, another for Asia, another for Eastern Europe, and one for South America. That's going to run you (because no one moving overseas to live takes a wage CUT) at least $200,000 (and probably well more) in additional salaries. At MLS level, you could end out paying the scouts more than the people you sign, even in the long term.

It's a lot easier to hire a local scout on a temporary basis, and you can bet that, when he can't get good free advice, the club is already tapping those resources. In fact, I guarantee it is; I've been told by one management insider that TFC gets FLOODED with potential signings, and even filtering through all of those alone is a substantial job.

[Shaughno]

Bam! End of discussion on scouting.

[TFCREDNWHITE]

Pachuco, I think you're missing the point that people are trying to make; no club at TFC's level hires international scouts FULL TIME. You contract them for a job, if they're regional, or you build contacts with those who place players either directly as player agents or as advisors to sports management companies.

Honestly, there are reams of professional scouting databases these guys can tap as well. There's no need for it to be a full-time job and, based on the relative salary expedentiure for the scouts compared to the overall salary outlay for the number of people they would sign, it makes no sense. It's why only the biggest clubs -- and usually even then via affiliate domestic sides -- have scouts who work overseas full time.

Think about it: Let's say TFC hires a full-timer for Africa, another for Asia, another for Eastern Europe, and one for South America. That's going to run you (because no one moving overseas to live takes a wage CUT) at least $200,000 (and probably well more) in additional salaries. At MLS level, you could end out paying the scouts more than the people you sign, even in the long term.

It's a lot easier to hire a local scout on a temporary basis, and you can bet that, when he can't get good free advice, the club is already tapping those resources. In fact, I guarantee it is; I've been told by one management insider that TFC gets FLOODED with potential signings, and even filtering through all of those alone is a substantial job.


Bingo Bango! Time to put baby to bed!!:)

[RPB_RED_NATION_RPB]

Bam! End of discussion on scouting.

amen!!:drinking:

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3417/71190212la4.gif (http://www.imagehosting.com/)BAM
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3417/71190212la4.gif (http://www.imagehosting.com/)BAM
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3417/71190212la4.gif (http://www.imagehosting.com/)BAM

[Pachuco]

Pachuco, I think you're missing the point that people are trying to make; no club at TFC's level hires international scouts FULL TIME. You contract them for a job, if they're regional, or you build contacts with those who place players either directly as player agents or as advisors to sports management companies.

Honestly, there are reams of professional scouting databases these guys can tap as well. There's no need for it to be a full-time job and, based on the relative salary expedentiure for the scouts compared to the overall salary outlay for the number of people they would sign, it makes no sense. It's why only the biggest clubs -- and usually even then via affiliate domestic sides -- have scouts who work overseas full time.

Think about it: Let's say TFC hires a full-timer for Africa, another for Asia, another for Eastern Europe, and one for South America. That's going to run you (because no one moving overseas to live takes a wage CUT) at least $200,000 (and probably well more) in additional salaries. At MLS level, you could end out paying the scouts more than the people you sign, even in the long term.

It's a lot easier to hire a local scout on a temporary basis, and you can bet that, when he can't get good free advice, the club is already tapping those resources. In fact, I guarantee it is; I've been told by one management insider that TFC gets FLOODED with potential signings, and even filtering through all of those alone is a substantial job.

well atleast someone on here knows how to make a point. I can agree with alot of what you said.

[H Bomb]

^^That's the exact same point Whoopee made earlier though

All I care about is that the scouts don't come from England/Scotland!!!!

[Shakes McQueen]

well atleast someone on here knows how to make a point. I can agree with alot of what you said.

Several of us have been reinforcing this point for a page or two now, in the face of TFC superfan Giambac's protests.

- Scott

[BFin]

Did I not make the same point as well earlier? In fact I believe I said we'd be paying scouts more than the guys they would be scouting a page ago?

[Shaughno]

^^ Most valid points get ignored by people who only care to try and make their point, however wrong it may be. ;)

[giambac]

^^That's the exact same point Whoopee made earlier though

All I care about is that the scouts don't come from England/Scotland!!!!

Bam :drinking:
Bam:drinking:

[ExiledRed]

^^ Most valid points get ignored by people who only care to try and make their point, however wrong it may be. ;)

Looks like you gave your head another shake.....LMAO

[Shaughno]

Looks like you gave your head another shake.....LMAO


My head is always shaking when reading threads in the TFC section. :lol:

[giambac]

35 percent of the league's players were born in 46 countries outside the United States. Without knowing the precise numbers, it is clear that, just over three months later, this diversity has accelerated still further.

Gone forever, it seems, are the days when the draft was seen as the best way to boost a roster. Indeed, given the development of the way teams recruit players, coupled with the increasing tendency for the best young players to opt out of the draft process entirely by signing with foreign clubs -- more than ever before, organizations are looking further and further afield for new blood.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=3512327&type=blogEntry

I'm hoping TFC isn't listening to you guys and they ARE actually paying attention to international scouting. It's pretty short sided to suggest that TFC should only hire scouts to track college players.

Great post,

These are facts,
These are stats on player personnel in the league and the direction the league is taking.

Funny how people talk bullshit on this forum and then when someone like you brings up real facts, real sats they don't respond and ignore it. Because they know they have no legitimate argument against it;)

[giambac]

Pachuco, I think you're missing the point that people are trying to make; no club at TFC's level hires international scouts FULL TIME. You contract them for a job, if they're regional, or you build contacts with those who place players either directly as player agents or as advisors to sports management companies.

Honestly, there are reams of professional scouting databases these guys can tap as well. There's no need for it to be a full-time job and, based on the relative salary expedentiure for the scouts compared to the overall salary outlay for the number of people they would sign, it makes no sense. It's why only the biggest clubs -- and usually even then via affiliate domestic sides -- have scouts who work overseas full time.

Think about it: Let's say TFC hires a full-timer for Africa, another for Asia, another for Eastern Europe, and one for South America. That's going to run you (because no one moving overseas to live takes a wage CUT) at least $200,000 (and probably well more) in additional salaries. At MLS level, you could end out paying the scouts more than the people you sign, even in the long term.

It's a lot easier to hire a local scout on a temporary basis, and you can bet that, when he can't get good free advice, the club is already tapping those resources. In fact, I guarantee it is; I've been told by one management insider that TFC gets FLOODED with potential signings, and even filtering through all of those alone is a substantial job.

jloome,

wake up and smell the coffee.
actually wake up and read the posts for a change.

No one is saying you need FULL TIME Staff in every country.

I'm asking for a representation of people to serve TFC in other parts of the world. They don't have to be full time people.
I asked if TFC had anyone scouting the U20 tourney in SA. Do they? and I don't mean from their living room couch.

The other thing your argument lacks is any analysis. You only provide one side of the argument. The cost would be 2 much. Being a business professsional, all my day to day decisions re based on a cost/benefit analysis. You can't only look at the cost/salary of having scouts in making your decision. what about the benefits? What if this scout finds a player that gets signed by TFC. He can make an impact, help us in the palyoff drive (more games, more tickets, more revenue), he can help sell jerseys (more revenue), at best we can transfer the player after a few years to Europe (I.e EDU) and bring in more revenue (% million for Edu). Would that not cover the cost of hiring some scouts.

Your argument is short sighted and doesn't look into the future. It is one sided and looks only at the costs.

Strong corporations are built by people who have visions and don't only look at costs. Why has MLSE branced out into the NBA, the MLS, condo construction, TV, media etc etc etc.......

[Pachuco]

Several of us have been reinforcing this point for a page or two now, in the face of TFC superfan Giambac's protests.

- Scott

Actually no. most of you got caught up in telling Giambac what an idiot he is and forgot how to properly make a point. There are two extremes going on in this thread if you ask me.

[Pachuco]

jloome,

wake up and smell the coffee.
actually wake up and read the posts for a change.

No one is saying you need FULL TIME Staff in every country.

I'm asking for a representation of people to serve TFC in other parts of the world. They don't have to be full time people.
I asked if TFC had anyone scouting the U20 tourney in SA. Do they? and I don't mean from their living room couch.

The other thing your argument lacks is any analysis. You only provide one side of the argument. The cost would be 2 much. Being a business professsional, all my day to day decisions re based on a cost/benefit analysis. You can't only look at the cost/salary of having scouts in making your decision. what about the benefits? What if this scout finds a player that gets signed by TFC. He can make an impact, help us in the palyoff drive (more games, more tickets, more revenue), he can help sell jerseys (more revenue), at best we can transfer the player after a few years to Europe (I.e EDU) and bring in more revenue (% million for Edu). Would that not cover the cost of hiring some scouts.

Your argument is short sighted and doesn't look into the future. It is one sided and looks only at the costs.

Strong corporations are built by people who have visions and don't only look at costs. Why has MLSE branced out into the NBA, the MLS, condo construction, TV, media etc etc etc.......

Yeah I must agreet with everything Giambac said. However, Jloome and Giambac you guys aren't too far apart on your thinking. I just think your hatred for each other is making you think you are :)

[giambac]

Yeah I must agreet with everything Giambac said. However, Jloome and Giambac you guys aren't too far apart on your thinking. I just think your hatred for each other is making you think you are :)


Most people on this forum attempt to shoot down my points just becasue they are coming from me.

I'm not saying I'm right on everything and have been wrong on several issues. However, there is no way anyone can argue that there is any harm in having international scouts.

It's only money,
It doesn't effect the salary cap
MLSE has tons of it
It will potentaillay bring in players to help improve the team.

What then is the negative??

If someone else made the argument peole would be saying it is a good idea. Because I amde the point guys like Shake MCQuuen and Jloome try and bring it down because of personal reasons.

[Pachuco]

Did I not make the same point as well earlier? In fact I believe I said we'd be paying scouts more than the guys they would be scouting a page ago?

Let me break it down for you since you all swear you are making the same point as Jloome.

Whoopee's idea is to first invest in 4 scouts in Northamerica before investing in any international scouting. That's a joke considering maybe 40% of MLS players were born in another country. That's where I am in complete disagreement with Whoopee. If we can afford 4 northamerican scouts then we can afford 2 northamerican scouts and 1 international.

BFin's argument is why scout internationally when we can't compete with the big clubs like AC Milan. That makes absolutely no sense, you are suggesting that in the entire world there are people only good enough for top flight Europe and that's it. Do you know how many kids in the South American tournmanent right now will not go to Europe? a big portion of them won't. And it's about us convincing them that we will give them a better way of life while playing professional soccer. We won't do that unless we begin to have presence in the tournaments that showcase this young talent from other parts of the world.

Jloome puts in in a way that is not so extreme. You can do both College and international scouting, you just don't have to pay a FULL TIME scout to do it.

The only thing I agree on with Whoopee and Bfin is that we don't need a full time internation scout. However, we need scouting presence at the major tournaments. Funny thing is, that's all I see Giambac saying as well.

[werewolf]

can anyone unequivocally say TFC hasn't hired a scout for this U-20 tournament?

[Pachuco]

can anyone unequivocally say TFC hasn't hired a scout for this U-20 tournament?

I would like to know. Although, the argument at hand isn't whether we did. It's whether we need to.

[giambac]

Let me break it down for you since you all swear you are making the same point as Jloome.

Whoopee's idea is to first invest in 4 scouts in Northamerica before investing in any international scouting. That's a joke considering maybe 40% of MLS players were born in another country. That's where I am in complete disagreement with Whoopee. If we can afford 4 northamerican scouts then we can afford 2 northamerican scouts and 1 international.

BFin's argument is why scout internationally when we can't compete with the big clubs like AC Milan. That makes absolutely no sense, you are suggesting that in the entire world there are people only good enough for top flight Europe and that's it. Do you know how many kids in the South American tournmanent right now will not go to Europe? a big portion of them won't. And it's about us convincing them that we will give them a better way of life while playing professional soccer. We won't do that unless we begin to have presence in the tournaments that showcase this young talent from other parts of the world.

Jloome puts in in a way that is not so extreme. You can do both College and international scouting, you just don't have to pay a FULL TIME scout to do it.

The only thing I agree on with Whoopee and Bfin is that we don't need a full time internation scout. However, we need scouting presence at the major tournaments. Funny thing is, that's all I see Giambac saying as well.

Anyone care to comment?????????;)

[werewolf]

I care to enquire as to why you assume the worse about the teams soccer operations department when you are clearly ignorant on the details of the matter.

[ExiledRed]

My head is always shaking when reading threads in the TFC section. :lol:

Actually, that was misplaced. I was attributing Pachuco's response to Flip as yours.

These things happen before 9 a.m.

[Whoop]

Great post,

These are facts,
These are stats on player personnel in the league and the direction the league is taking.

Funny how people talk bullshit on this forum and then when someone like you brings up real facts, real sats they don't respond and ignore it. Because they know they have no legitimate argument against it;)

The numbers in that article are skewed. It says 35% of the players are born in 46 countries outside the US. It doesn't state where those players played. For example, Julius James was born in T&T yet played in the NCAA. O'Brian White was born in Canada, yet played at the University of Connecticut. Stefan Frei was born in Switzerland, yet played at the University of California. etc.

While I will concede that the shift in the future will be to move away from university players at the moment that's where the majority of the players come from.

And giambac and Pachuco are right on the fact that the best way to scout is to go to the games and see the players live. And MLSE could spend hundrend of thousands of dollars on scouting and build a scouting machine to rival those in La Liga, Serie A or the EPL.

However, to say that Mo has to go physically see all those players is a stretch. When Mo goes on these "scouting missions" he's more than likely building a network of contacts as others have suggested. The article that Pachuco stated that Nichol signed his Gambian players after watching them in Canada.

One thing TFC could add is possibly a "Director of Scouting" i.e. he would be the guy responsible to track any leads on players, in a manner assist Mo in that aspect. He would be the guy jetting around the world looking at players for TFC and when he found one bring in Mo. One week in Venezuela where he'll check in with TFC's South American scout, the next week in Russia where he'll check in with the TFC's Eastern European scout, the following week in Australia where he'll check in with TFC's Asian scout. And at the end of those trips, TFC will have a list of about 20-30 guys that will be willing to sign. :rolleyes: Sorry, forgot Mo, as well as being the Director of Soccer Operations is the Director of Scouting.

But again, given the global nature of the game, it is more cost effective to rely on scouts/contact/bird dogs/acquintances/friends/agents/etc, etc. in various locales giving you scoops on players. I mean that's why there is always guys on trial. A player is suggested, he comes over and trials with the team. If you've seen him play and you think he's good enough, you would sign him, no?

I can use the example of the OHL in regards to its Import Draft. There are a number of good players from Europe playing in the OHL, but there isn't a team that employs a scout in Europe. On occasion a team's GM might go over to watch some guys play, but for the most part, a team's GM relies on his contacts. i.e. an agent has a player willing to come over, the GM starts calling his contacts, namely at the NHL level, they'll tell him if that player is any good or not, once it's determined that player is good, you go back to the agent to work out a deal. Sometimes all it takes is a release fee to the hockey federation of that player's country other times it requires some sort of deal to the player or cut to the agent. You're not going to get the Alexander Ovechkins and Evgeni Malkins of the world but you can get the Evgeny Grachevs and Sergei Kostitsyns of the world. Now this is just one part of the world, over a small number of players between the ages of 18-20. Now imagine this on a global basis, with thousands of players, of various ages.

Having said all that, I think the future in the MLS - and it's mentioned in the article - is going to be regionalized scouting. At some point, MLS will have to bend on allowing teams to sign players from their Academies. At that point, the emphasis will be getting the best players from a localized region to train at the Academy.

But all this talk has made me wonder if there is possibly money to be made in setting up a Scouting Agency whose sole duty is to find players for MLS teams. i.e. Go to every MLS team for some cash (ie. yearly subscription) and then identify players that could be had by MLS teams and/or willing to sign with MLS teams. Provide that list of players to the MLS teams that have paid for your services and if a player signs with a MLS team, you get a cut on top of the yearly subscription. But I'm sure there are guys out there who do that already.

Listen I'm not Mo's biggest fan but to trash for his "scouting" is unfair because NO ONE knows the inner workings of what's happening. Mo probably has a large list of players that he likes and wants to bring to TFC but for some reason or other they do not want to sign with TFC. Yes, we all love TFC, but that doesn't mean that everyone wants to play here.

[Covlad]

Let's do a comparison.

When the Blue Jays were first starting out they quicly realized that in order to get ahead of the more established teams they had to start scounting players in countries other than the traditional US Staes. They quickly formed a scouting staff of people from the Dominion Republic and started scouting for talent. Soon we had players like Alfredo Griffen, Garcie, Tony Frernades, George Bell who came here. It was becasue of the personal touch that these Domican satff had . It wasn't Paul Beeston or Pat Gillick who were doing the scouting.

Imn the same way Mo has to develop his staff and get people who speak the language and know the cities/towns in South America. That is a more effective way and I'm ceratin the results would be better. Sure can't be worse considering he is batting 0 when it comes to getting players from SA.

Griffen and Garcia were already plaing in the MLB. So how is that scouting in he Dominican?

[Whoop]

Let me break it down for you since you all swear you are making the same point as Jloome.

Whoopee's idea is to first invest in 4 scouts in Northamerica before investing in any international scouting. That's a joke considering maybe 40% of MLS players were born in another country. That's where I am in complete disagreement with Whoopee. If we can afford 4 northamerican scouts then we can afford 2 northamerican scouts and 1 international.


You might not need 4 scouts covering the NCAA, but your emphasis should be on North America.

That number 40% you quoted - which comes from the article you posted and goes against the 35% as released by MLS - is skewed. See my post above.

Yes, there might be a number of players born outside of the US, but many of those guys born outside of the US were developed with the NCAA ranks.

Don't believe me...

TFC examples
Julius James (T&T), O'Brian White (Canada), Stefan Frei (Switzerland), Andrew Boyens (New Zealand), Jeff Cunningham (Jamaica), Kyle Hall (T&T), Tyler Rosenlund (Canada), Jarrod Smith (New Zealand),

MLS examples
Danleigh Borman (South Africa), John Cunliffe (England), Kheli Dube (Zimbabwe), Gavin Clinton (Turks & Caicos), Andy Iro (England), Sharlie Joseph (Grenada), Kei Kamara (Sierra Leone), Stefani Miglioranzi (Brazil), Yura Movsisyan (USSR), Patrick Nyarko (Ghana), Duncan Oughton (New Zealand), Dane Richards (Jamaica), Adrian Serioux (Canada), Sinisa Ubiparipovic (Bosnia), Josh Wicks (Germany), Andy Williams (Jamaica)

I didn't bother listing the schools that each of these players attended but just click on their bios and you'll see that sure they were born in other countries but they played in the NCAA.

[giambac]

You might not need 4 scouts covering the NCAA, but your emphasis should be on North America.

That number 40% you quoted - which comes from the article you posted and goes against the 35% as released by MLS - is skewed. See my post above.

Yes, there might be a number of players born outside of the US, but many of those guys born outside of the US were developed with the NCAA ranks.

Don't believe me...

TFC examples
Julius James (T&T), O'Brian White (Canada), Stefan Frei (Switzerland), Andrew Boyens (New Zealand), Jeff Cunningham (Jamaica), Kyle Hall (T&T), Tyler Rosenlund (Canada), Jarrod Smith (New Zealand),

MLS examples
Danleigh Borman (South Africa), John Cunliffe (England), Kheli Dube (Zimbabwe), Gavin Clinton (Turks & Caicos), Andy Iro (England), Sharlie Joseph (Grenada), Kei Kamara (Sierra Leone), Stefani Miglioranzi (Brazil), Yura Movsisyan (USSR), Patrick Nyarko (Ghana), Duncan Oughton (New Zealand), Dane Richards (Jamaica), Adrian Serioux (Canada), Sinisa Ubiparipovic (Bosnia), Josh Wicks (Germany), Andy Williams (Jamaica)

I didn't bother listing the schools that each of these players attended but just click on their bios and you'll see that sure they were born in other countries but they played in the NCAA.

Whoppe,

i agree with some of your points.

The argument isn't about whether you should have international scouts vs NA scouts. It's not about having one or the other. You should have a combination of the 2.

Have 3 NA scouts and 2 part time international scouts- one who travels Europe for leads/contacts and one who travels SA for leads/contacts.

Your idea of having a Director of scouting is correct. Problem is we don't. Mo is the GM and also the director of scouting. He should hire someone for this role and with time develop a strong supporting staff. This is how this team needs to go in order to build a strong foundation for years to come.

TFC has put some of the building blocks in place (i.e Academy team), now they have to take it a step further. Start scouting in NA and abroad. Like I said it's only money of which MLSE has tons of and it doesn't effect the salary cap. what then is the issue?

[Luanda]

Rome was not built overnight, the saying goes.
We are beginning YEAR 3. It takes years for any team to develop a sound scouting system - local, regional, national, and international. So, folks, like others things pertaining to TFC, let us give this one time.

For the moment, with Grella at Leeds, Hall unsigned, and Dunivant traded, we have 21 players on our roster. So three bodies will be added within the coming weeks. The pressing question is who, scouted/discovered or not.

[Pachuco]

The numbers in that article are skewed. It says 35% of the players are born in 46 countries outside the US. It doesn't state where those players played. For example, Julius James was born in T&T yet played in the NCAA. O'Brian White was born in Canada, yet played at the University of Connecticut. Stefan Frei was born in Switzerland, yet played at the University of California. etc.

While I will concede that the shift in the future will be to move away from university players at the moment that's where the majority of the players come from.

And giambac and Pachuco are right on the fact that the best way to scout is to go to the games and see the players live. And MLSE could spend hundrend of thousands of dollars on scouting and build a scouting machine to rival those in La Liga, Serie A or the EPL.

However, to say that Mo has to go physically see all those players is a stretch. When Mo goes on these "scouting missions" he's more than likely building a network of contacts as others have suggested. The article that Pachuco stated that Nichol signed his Gambian players after watching them in Canada.

One thing TFC could add is possibly a "Director of Scouting" i.e. he would be the guy responsible to track any leads on players, in a manner assist Mo in that aspect. He would be the guy jetting around the world looking at players for TFC and when he found one bring in Mo. One week in Venezuela where he'll check in with TFC's South American scout, the next week in Russia where he'll check in with the TFC's Eastern European scout, the following week in Australia where he'll check in with TFC's Asian scout. And at the end of those trips, TFC will have a list of about 20-30 guys that will be willing to sign. :rolleyes: Sorry, forgot Mo, as well as being the Director of Soccer Operations is the Director of Scouting.

But again, given the global nature of the game, it is more cost effective to rely on scouts/contact/bird dogs/acquintances/friends/agents/etc, etc. in various locales giving you scoops on players. I mean that's why there is always guys on trial. A player is suggested, he comes over and trials with the team. If you've seen him play and you think he's good enough, you would sign him, no?

I can use the example of the OHL in regards to its Import Draft. There are a number of good players from Europe playing in the OHL, but there isn't a team that employs a scout in Europe. On occasion a team's GM might go over to watch some guys play, but for the most part, a team's GM relies on his contacts. i.e. an agent has a player willing to come over, the GM starts calling his contacts, namely at the NHL level, they'll tell him if that player is any good or not, once it's determined that player is good, you go back to the agent to work out a deal. Sometimes all it takes is a release fee to the hockey federation of that player's country other times it requires some sort of deal to the player or cut to the agent. You're not going to get the Alexander Ovechkins and Evgeni Malkins of the world but you can get the Evgeny Grachevs and Sergei Kostitsyns of the world. Now this is just one part of the world, over a small number of players between the ages of 18-20. Now imagine this on a global basis, with thousands of players, of various ages.

Having said all that, I think the future in the MLS - and it's mentioned in the article - is going to be regionalized scouting. At some point, MLS will have to bend on allowing teams to sign players from their Academies. At that point, the emphasis will be getting the best players from a localized region to train at the Academy.

But all this talk has made me wonder if there is possibly money to be made in setting up a Scouting Agency whose sole duty is to find players for MLS teams. i.e. Go to every MLS team for some cash (ie. yearly subscription) and then identify players that could be had by MLS teams and/or willing to sign with MLS teams. Provide that list of players to the MLS teams that have paid for your services and if a player signs with a MLS team, you get a cut on top of the yearly subscription. But I'm sure there are guys out there who do that already.

Listen I'm not Mo's biggest fan but to trash for his "scouting" is unfair because NO ONE knows the inner workings of what's happening. Mo probably has a large list of players that he likes and wants to bring to TFC but for some reason or other they do not want to sign with TFC. Yes, we all love TFC, but that doesn't mean that everyone wants to play here.

See I really like your idea of having a director of scouting, that's really all we are asking for. Someone who works full time for the club and has contractor like scouts who speak the local language and are willing to sell TFC on behalf of TFC.

I kind of disagree though with the concept of just sitting and waiting for players to come on trials. That's where I think we are missing the boat. There are many players that need to be convinced that Toronto is the right place to trial. If we have our own presence there (when needed) we can pitch it much better then relying on someone who is probably pitching a hundred different countries to go play in. Instead of TFC waiting and hoping they choose us to trial with, we pitch it to them and make sure they come. Mo is probably not the right guy to go to South America whenever we find promising players there.

I have to take Seattle as the perfect example. What did they do different then us? how do they end up with Freddy Montero (who is highly regarded in Colombia) in their first year of existence and we haven't closed the deal on a single young player from overseas. We are obviously doing something wrong.

Take this as an example as well, NE discovered 2 kids from Gambia in our own house. Mo didn't even have to travel for this one, and we still couldn't find 1 single player in that tournament that had promise in the MLS and that enjoyed the Toronto atmosphere enough that they were willing to atleast come on trial? With a director of scouting, I think things could have been different.

Finally, I don't blame Mo at all, it seems as though he works his butt off to get people in. I blame MLSE for the poor scouting staff they apparantly have. I don't need to know who's on the staff, I can judge by the results. Last time we had 2 Colombians try out for TFC one was fat and the other was taking off and sent home at half in a preseason game. Even Mo was very open about how terrible the two players were. So who's to blame? How did we not even know what these kids looked like before they come on trial?

[Beach_Red]

When there are 20 teams in MLS, all playing out of their own 25,000 seat stadiums and the salary cap is $15 - $20 million a year, you guys will see everything you're looking for here.

Until then....

[giambac]

See I really like your idea of having a director of scouting, that's really all we are asking for. Someone who works full time for the club and has contractor like scouts who speak the local language and are willing to sell TFC on behalf of TFC.

I kind of disagree though with the concept of just sitting and waiting for players to come on trials. That's where I think we are missing the boat. There are many players that need to be convinced that Toronto is the right place to trial. If we have our own presence there (when needed) we can pitch it much better then relying on someone who is probably pitching a hundred different countries to go play in. Instead of TFC waiting and hoping they choose us to trial with, we pitch it to them and make sure they come. Mo is probably not the right guy to go to South America whenever we find promising players there.

I have to take Seattle as the perfect example. What did they do different then us? how do they end up with Freddy Montero (who is highly regarded in Colombia) in their first year of existence and we haven't closed the deal on a single young player from overseas. We are obviously doing something wrong.

Take this as an example as well, NE discovered 2 kids from Gambia in our own house. Mo didn't even have to travel for this one, and we still couldn't find 1 single player in that tournament that had promise in the MLS and that enjoyed the Toronto atmosphere enough that they were willing to atleast come on trial? With a director of scouting, I think things could have been different.

Finally, I don't blame Mo at all, it seems as though he works his butt off to get people in. I blame MLSE for the poor scouting staff they apparantly have. I don't need to know who's on the staff, I can judge by the results. Last time we had 2 Colombians try out for TFC one was fat and the other was taking off and sent home at half in a preseason game. Even Mo was very open about how terrible the two players were. So who's to blame? How did we not even know what these kids looked like before they come on trial?

On this very well written and layed out expalnation the debate shoould end. Nothing more need sto be said on this issue.........It's quite obvious:canada:

[BFin]

Let me break it down for you since you all swear you are making the same point as Jloome.

BFin's argument is why scout internationally when we can't compete with the big clubs like AC Milan. That makes absolutely no sense, you are suggesting that in the entire world there are people only good enough for top flight Europe and that's it. Do you know how many kids in the South American tournmanent right now will not go to Europe? a big portion of them won't. And it's about us convincing them that we will give them a better way of life while playing professional soccer. We won't do that unless we begin to have presence in the tournaments that showcase this young talent from other parts of the world.

Jloome puts in in a way that is not so extreme. You can do both College and international scouting, you just don't have to pay a FULL TIME scout to do it.

The only thing I agree on with Whoopee and Bfin is that we don't need a full time internation scout. However, we need scouting presence at the major tournaments. Funny thing is, that's all I see Giambac saying as well.

To speak to your point that I bolded....do you???
You and giambac are merely stating hypotheses.
Until you have answers to your own questions, you can not pose them to me and expect an answer cause frankly I have no idea, and neither do you.
How do you know we aren't scouting the U20's?
How do you know TFC doesn't have any international scouts?
How do you know we perhaps don't outsource scouting at specific times, and utilize databases provided by scouting services?

This brings me back to the old arguing on the internet anecdote about the special olympics...but I will leave the anecdote as it will no doubt be scrutinized for it's lack of a scouting team.

[Shaughno]

To speak to your point that I bolded....do you???
You and giambac are merely stating hypotheses.
Until you have answers to your own questions, you can not pose them to me and expect an answer cause frankly I have no idea, and neither do you.
How do you know we aren't scouting the U20's?
How do you know TFC doesn't have any international scouts?
How do you know we perhaps don't outsource scouting at specific times, and utilize databases provided by scouting services?

This brings me back to the old arguing on the internet anecdote about the special olympics...but I will leave the anecdote as it will no doubt be scrutinized for it's lack of a scouting team.

That's what I've been trying to say. Nobody here has any clue whether or not we have these scouts, full time, part time, anything. Assuming we don't just makes your argument seem less valid than it may or may not already be.

[Pachuco]

To speak to your point that I bolded....do you???
You and giambac are merely stating hypotheses.
Until you have answers to your own questions, you can not pose them to me and expect an answer cause frankly I have no idea, and neither do you.
How do you know we aren't scouting the U20's?
How do you know TFC doesn't have any international scouts?
How do you know we perhaps don't outsource scouting at specific times, and utilize databases provided by scouting services?

This brings me back to the old arguing on the internet anecdote about the special olympics...but I will leave the anecdote as it will no doubt be scrutinized for it's lack of a scouting team.

I'm tired of going in circles, so this is the last time I'll explain it.

1. The majority of this discussion is whether TFC NEEDS to be there, NOT whether they ARE there.
2. Results speak for themselves.
a) Seattle 1st year, signs a promising young Colombian.
b) Toronto 3rd year, got a fat colombian and another one that didn't know how to play

[Shaughno]

I'm tired of going in circles, so this is the last time I'll explain it.

1. The majority of this discussion is whether TFC NEEDS to be there, NOT whether they ARE there.
2. Results speak for themselves.
a) Seattle 1st year, signs a promising young Colombian.
b) Toronto 3rd year, got a fat colombian and another one that didn't know how to play

2nd year, not 3rd... but I digress.

There are people who are basing their opinions off the fact that we DON'T have scouts/systems in place.

Of course it would be beneficial to have as many scouting resources as possible, that's a given.

[Pachuco]

2nd year, not 3rd... but I digress.

There are people who are basing their opinions off the fact that we DON'T have scouts/systems in place.

Of course it would be beneficial to have as many scouting resources as possible, that's a given.

Well then Seattle is in year 0? they haven't played a single game and we've played 2 full seasons. Whichever way you look at it, the difference is the same.

[Beach_Red]

2. Results speak for themselves.



While I agree that results are all we care about, there are too many behind-the-scenes variables to say they speak for themselves.

What we have seen is a steady increase in the infrastructure of TFC. It's gone from pretty much a one-man operation when MLSE threw as little money at it as possible to bringing in a proper coach, assistant coaches (a few weeks ago the team signed a goalkeeper coach), trainers and probably made more connections than we know.

The results we're looking for are coming. Not fast enough for many of us, maybe, but the team hasn't been standing still.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Pachuco, we did try to sign one of the gambians but couldnt because of the immigration laws here in Canada, i remember reading an article on it

[giambac]

While I agree that results are all we care about, there are too many behind-the-scenes variables to say they speak for themselves.

What we have seen is a steady increase in the infrastructure of TFC. It's gone from pretty much a one-man operation when MLSE threw as little money at it as possible to bringing in a proper coach, assistant coaches (a few weeks ago the team signed a goalkeeper coach), trainers and probably made more connections than we know.

The results we're looking for are coming. Not fast enough for many of us, maybe, but the team hasn't been standing still.

Why can't we use some of the $ million we recieved from the Edu transfer. My understanding is that it has to be used on building the team, academy, coaching etc.

It sure won't be used on a grass field anytime soon so use it elsewhere where it can help the team.

It's not earning much interest in today's economy.

Hopefully they didn't invest it with Freddie May or mary Mack or with Joe Blow:eek:.

[Wooster_TFC]

Well then Seattle is in year 14? they haven't played a single MLS game and we've played 2 full MLS seasons. Whichever way you look at it, the difference is the same.

Fixed your comment there for ya.

Blatantly ripped from wikipedia (since I wasn't sure how long the USL team had been around):

Seattle Sounders was an American professional soccer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer) team, founded in 1994. The team was a member of the USL First Division (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USL_First_Division), the second tier of the American Soccer Pyramid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Soccer_Pyramid), until 2008, after which the majority of the team's staff and resources were directed to the new Major League Soccer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Soccer) franchise, Seattle Sounders FC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Sounders_FC).

[BFin]

2nd year, not 3rd... but I digress.

There are people who are basing their opinions off the fact that we DON'T have scouts/systems in place.

Of course it would be beneficial to have as many scouting resources as possible, that's a given.

hahah tell me your saturday morning bus to columbus.
I need someone to shake my head.

[Pachuco]

Fixed your comment there for ya.

Blatantly ripped from wikipedia (since I wasn't sure how long the USL team had been around):

Seattle Sounders was an American professional soccer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer) team, founded in 1994. The team was a member of the USL First Division (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USL_First_Division), the second tier of the American Soccer Pyramid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Soccer_Pyramid), until 2008, after which the majority of the team's staff and resources were directed to the new Major League Soccer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Soccer) franchise, Seattle Sounders FC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Sounders_FC).

Well let's see. Seattle Sounders got some of their staff from the USL Team. Where did TFC get their staff from? from the MLS and Europe!!! TFC should be at an advantage in year 3 then Seattle's MLS team in year 1. At the end of the day, it's not like Freddy signed with Seattle because it was his dream to play for their USL team.

[Shaughno]

Well let's see. Seattle Sounders got some of their staff from the USL Team. Where did TFC get their staff from? from the MLS and Europe!!! TFC should be at an advantage in year 3 then Seattle's MLS team in year 1. At the end of the day, it's not like Freddy signed with Seattle because it was his dream to play for their USL team.


Way to completely miss his point.

TFC was assembled from scratch. Before 2006 there was no such thing as TFC, no staff, no scouts, no employees period.

Before 2009, Seattle was a team. With staff, and scouts and employees. They are YEARS ahead of TFC in terms of organization.

[giambac]

Way to completely miss his point.

TFC was assembled from scratch. Before 2006 there was no such thing as TFC, no staff, no scouts, no employees period.

Before 2009, Seattle was a team. With staff, and scouts and employees. They are YEARS ahead of TFC in terms of organization.

and this is the point.
;)
Is this abad thing to have??
Good for Seattle , Bad for TFC.

what is tyour argument...IF Seattle has it shouldn't TFC have it by now???:rolleyes:

[Pachuco]

and this is the point.
;)
Is this abad thing to have??
Good for Seattle , Bad for TFC.

what is tyour argument...IF Seattle has it shouldn't TFC have it by now???:rolleyes:

Hehe, you read my mind ;)

[Shaughno]

and this is the point.
;)
Is this abad thing to have??
Good for Seattle , Bad for TFC.

what is tyour argument...IF Seattle has it shouldn't TFC have it by now???:rolleyes:


Dude, do you even read the posts or just look for key words?

The Sounders organization has been in place since before the beginning of the MLS. Of fucking course they have their shit in place, 15 years later.

If in 12 years time, TFC doesn't have any improvements in their scouting set up, then your point stands. Until then, we're building on it and can only assume that TFC is working towards that goal.

You don't go out and build the best scouting system in the league in 3 years, especially when there are clubs in the MLS who have been tapping those resources for over 12 years.

[Wooster_TFC]

and this is the point.
;)
Is this abad thing to have??
Good for Seattle , Bad for TFC.

what is tyour argument...IF Seattle has it shouldn't TFC have it by now???:rolleyes:

The comment had nothing to do with the whole scouting non-argument, it was to refute Pachuco's comment that Seattle at year 0 is lightyears ahead of TFC in year 2 (or 3), and that this is somehow a failing of TFC.

I corrected him with the fact that Seattle at year 14 is lightyears ahead of TFC in year 2 (or 3), and that is how it should be.

If you had taken any sort of organizational development course, or even watched any pro-sports team, you know you simply can't grab a whole bunch of new people who have never worked together and toss them in an organization and have it work. This is not simply a matter of money, it's a matter of organic growth and improving year to year. Can TFC be doing a better job? Maybe. Have TFC done nothing. Hardly.

[BFin]

To steal a line from a song....
Round and round the world will spin. Oh this circle never ends.
Shaugno, you're wasting your time man. My advice, just leave this thread alone.
I think logic has gone out the window at this point.
Your efforts have not gone unnoticed hah :)

[Pachuco]

To steal a line from a song....
Round and round the world will spin. Oh this circle never ends.
Shaugno, you're wasting your time man. My advice, just leave this thread alone.
I think logic has gone out the window at this point.
Your efforts have not gone unnoticed hah :)

I'm officially finished with this thread. I agree on the round and round thing.

[BFin]

we agreed!! haha :p

[Shaughno]

No answer on the criticism of your arguement before you leave I see. ;)

[Pachuco]

No answer on the criticism of your arguement before you leave I see. ;)

Maybe if you read my posts you'd know the answer. I'm not going in circles anymore, for the sake of everyone else reading this thread.

[giambac]

Dude, do you even read the posts or just look for key words?

The Sounders organization has been in place since before the beginning of the MLS. Of fucking course they have their shit in place, 15 years later.

If in 12 years time, TFC doesn't have any improvements in their scouting set up, then your point stands. Until then, we're building on it and can only assume that TFC is working towards that goal.

You don't go out and build the best scouting system in the league in 3 years, especially when there are clubs in the MLS who have been tapping those resources for over 12 years.


Okay I'm done with this thread also.

Let's end it and follow your recommendation

WE all should wait 12 more years before we get any scouts. Until then no one should compalin or expect anything to be done. Your right.:cool:

[werewolf]

unanswered?


I care to enquire as to why you assume the worse about the teams soccer operations department when you are clearly ignorant on the details of the matter.

[Shaughno]

Okay I'm done with this thread also.

Let's end it and follow your recommendation

WE all should wait 12 more years before we get any scouts. Until then no one should compalin or expect anything to be done. Your right.:cool:

:rolleyes: I'm not even dignifying that with a proper response.

[tfc]

this thread makes me want to stick needles in my dick

[Gobi]

Sami Hyypia for DP CB!

[Pachuco]

Sami Hyypia for DP CB!

HAHA, holy crap I can't believe I forgot what the thread was about. Shame on the mods for letting me go on rants :D

[giambac]

this thread makes me want to stick needles in my dick

Ouch!

That must be painful:(