"Mickey Mouse" MLS

[Oblio2]

From Thursdays Sun (UK)

DAVID BECKHAM produced his greatest game in years to wow Fabio Capello.


And now the midfield ace must decide this week whether to stay on at AC Milan or return to LA Galaxy and the Mickey Mouse football of the MLS.

Beckham, 33, swung home a sensational free-kick in the San Siro to cap an all-action display reminiscent of THAT heroic performance against Greece back in 2001.

England boss Capello must have been impressed in the stands and will surely recall Becks for next month’s friendly with Spain.

Afterwards, Milan manager Carlo Ancelotti revealed it is entirely down to Becks over where his future lies.


Continued

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/article2184606.ece

[H Bomb]

Let them hate. they aren't the audience.

[ExiledRed]

Can you warn me before posting S*n articles please?

I didnt read it, but it's bound to be absolute shite.

[Parkdale]

Well Disney Land is in LA....

[james]

it says its not up to Galaxy or AC Milan on what team Beckham decides to play for......but im pretty sure it would be up to Galaxy if they want to release his contract to Milan and wouldnt it be up to Milan if they wanna pay the transfer fee???

[james]

As for MLS being a "Mickey Mouse League" i think is pretty true. I support the MLS, but there is so much things that make the league look bad from teams playing on NFL gridline fields, teams playing in empty stadiums, bad referrees, bad schedulling with international dates, teams with stupid names like the Wizards, skill level of players being pretty poor, and the list goes on. If it wasnt for TFC being in MLS i would never watch it. Untill MLS fixes some of these problems the leage will also look mickey mouse!

[ExiledRed]

I prefer the term 'piss ass' league.

And I wouldnt say that if it seemed for one moment that MLS was taking steps to eliminate the 'single entity model' the absurd salary cap and the ridiculous player pawning that goes on.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

it says its not up to Galaxy or AC Milan on what team Beckham decides to play for......but im pretty sure it would be up to Galaxy if they want to release his contract to Milan and wouldnt it be up to Milan if they wanna pay the transfer fee???


the Galaxy have a contract with Beck till 2012, but he has an out option after this season......

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

I prefer the term 'piss ass' league.

And I wouldnt say that if it seemed for one moment that MLS was taking steps to eliminate the 'single entity model' the absurd salary cap and the ridiculous player pawning that goes on.


The salary cap is there for a reason, they don't go the way of the old NASL....and its time european leagues or UEFA bring in a salary cap.

[ExiledRed]

The salary cap is there for a reason, they don't go the way of the old NASL....and its time european leagues or UEFA bring in a salary cap.

The NASL existed before the internet, Satellite TV, Fifa soccer video games, the EPL (and it's global popularity), Fashionista celebrity players, jersey sales, sports branding ....I could go on....the world has changed huge since.

The comparison doesnt hold up, because there are a hundred more ways to market the sport now, and even if there was a need for salary capping, $2 million is pathetic..."piss ass" money even.

[TFC OZZ]

The NASL existed before the internet, Satellite TV, Fifa soccer video games, the EPL (and it's global popularity), Fashionista celebrity players, jersey sales, sports branding ....I could go on....the world has changed huge since.

The comparison doesnt hold up, because there are a hundred more ways to market the sport now, and even if there was a need for salary capping, $2 million is pathetic..."piss ass" money even.

Agreed.

[Pigfynn]

The NASL existed before the internet, Satellite TV, Fifa soccer video games, the EPL (and it's global popularity), Fashionista celebrity players, jersey sales, sports branding ....I could go on....the world has changed huge since.

The comparison doesnt hold up, because there are a hundred more ways to market the sport now, and even if there was a need for salary capping, $2 million is pathetic..."piss ass" money even.

Hey Exiled, glad to see you around.:)

[Stryker]

Tabloid style journalism is mickey mouse.
Having "feature" sunshine girls that look like they were brought in for a photo shoot after their shift at a low end peeler bar is mickey mouse.
People who live is glass houses...

[Super]

It is a Mickey Mouse league. Salary caps make it so. No financial advantage to any team, even if they have greater support and produce better teams -- winning teams. Incentives to finish last, play-offs, etc.. The MLS is, and will remain, Mickey Mouse and a JOKE to the rest of the world until we get rid of the cap.

I come from a city in Denmark with about 100,000 people (Aalborg) and the local team outspends TFC 5 times on players -- easily. They'd KILL us if they played us, too. So would any other club in Denmark, a country with a population smaller than the GTA.

So yeah, we're Mickey Mouse. Kinda on the level of the Cyprus league and such.

IF we got rid of the cap we might be able to compete with higher leagues, and certainly the Scandinavian ones. But for now players would rather go to Norwegian second division teams than play in the MLS.

[ExiledRed]

Hey Exiled, glad to see you around.:)

It's nice to be back, thanks :)

[Bars92]

I sometimes wonder how an MLS team would match up against teams from some of the smaller European leagues. Obviously, when you're talking AC Milan we are Mickey Mouse, but there is a lot of football played beneath that.

[ExiledRed]

I sometimes wonder how an MLS team would match up against teams from some of the smaller European leagues. Obviously, when you're talking AC Milan we are Mickey Mouse, but there is a lot of football played beneath that.

Yes but you have to go pretty far down that ladder to find a squad that's worth only $2,000,000

[Super]

Cyprus :D

[ExiledRed]

The NASL existed before the internet, Satellite TV, Fifa soccer video games, the EPL (and it's global popularity), Fashionista celebrity players, jersey sales, sports branding ....I could go on....the world has changed huge since.


I'm going to add to this list, the USA hosting of the world cup and persistent qualification in the tournament since.

The NASL argument is the haven of the anti-soccer media and those who are addicted to the north american franchise system.

[Stryker]

Many top leagues around the world are close to 100 years old.
MLS is just over 10 years old. Enough said.

[Super]

Many top leagues around the world are close to 100 years old.
MLS is just over 10 years old. Enough said.

Exactly. AND it's the best football you'll find in America and Canada. And, well, it's ours. I just wish that the MLS would allow clubs to excel and take advantage of support to rise above others and become a giant. You NEED that. Imagine the Prem without the big clubs? It would be boring. Lift the cap, but force the clubs to put forth budgets and make sure none of them spend outside of their means. That way no one will go bankrupt.

And yes, it may mean that football mad cities win more than those who couldn't give a shit about the sport. But isn't that a good thing for the sport? Looks a bit better on TV and in the media when TFC wins a game than when Kansas city or Chivas does.

[ExiledRed]

Many top leagues around the world are close to 100 years old.
MLS is just over 10 years old. Enough said.

It's not about age, it's about money, product and marketing strategy.

The EPL is in fact not much older than MLS.

[Sonny Cheeba]

i disagree about the EPL being boring without the big clubs. highly disagree... having a top four clubs means they only really compete with each other.... jeez sometimes i find the battle to avoid relegation more exciting.

all these big clubs do is bring about big players, but that does not make the league overall exciting.

what was everyone talking about at the beginning of the season? HULL CITY. show's how exciting the big four were at that time.

[Stryker]

It's not about age, it's about money, product and marketing strategy.

The EPL is in fact not much older than MLS.

Would you invest huge sums of money into a brand new league?
And the Prems splintered off a league that was started in 1888 so any arguement that they're reletively the same age holds little weight.

[ExiledRed]

Would you invest huge sums of money into a brand new league?
And the Prems splintered off a league that was started in 1888 so any arguement that they're reletively the same age holds little weight.

I disagree, MLS incorporated teams that have been around for a long time such as the Earthquakes and the Metrostars. I'll admit the comparison is tenuous but I won't agree that EPL is as succesful as it is today because its teams are over 100 years old. If the product was crap, it's age would be irrelevant.

The fundamental difference between EPL and Division One was and is marketing strategy.

[Rudi]

MLS incorporated teams that have been around for a long time such as the Earthquakes and the Metrostars.
The Earthquakes as they are now have ZERO connection to the NASL Quakes. Hell, they weren't even called the Earthquakes until just after 2000. They simply bought the name when AEG realized that "Clash" was an awful, awful name with no connection to the area. In fact, it is the Seattle Sounders who can lay claim to being the only MLS team with legitimate ties to the NASL era (although even that is a very tenuous connection).

And the Metrostars (now Red Bulls) have been around as long as Columbus Crew, KC Wizards, DC United, FC Dallas, New England Revolution and Los Angeles Galaxy. In other words, they were 'incorporated' when the league was formed, not a second earlier.

[Flipityflu]

everytime you read the sun, baby Jesus cries.

hey exiled, nice to see you around, hope things are well.

[ExiledRed]

The Earthquakes as they are now have ZERO connection to the NASL Quakes. Hell, they weren't even called the Earthquakes until just after 2000. They simply bought the name when AEG realized that "Clash" was an awful, awful name with no connection to the area. In fact, it is the Seattle Sounders who can lay claim to being the only MLS team with legitimate ties to the NASL era.

And the Metrostars (now Red Bulls) have been around as long as Columbus Crew, KC Wizards, DC United, FC Dallas, New England Revolution and Los Angeles Galaxy. In other words, they were 'incorporated' when the league was formed, not a second earlier.

My point was that soccer existed in some form on this continent, and MLS is an evolution of those failures.

Anyway, dont the metrostars have a connection to the cosmos?

It's irrelevant anyway, I still think that pretending we dont have to elevate the standards in this league drastically because its only ten years old, is a cop out.

[Dirk Diggler]

I agree that age of the teams is of little relevance. There are football clubs in India that were established in 1880's ... yet Indian football is as obscure as it ever has been.

[ExiledRed]

everytime you read the sun, baby Jesus cries.

hey exiled, nice to see you around, hope things are well.

Apart from repeatedly being called a murderer and held responsible for the deaths of the 96, by fellow TFC fans with no real connection to the northwest of England, things are great. nice to see you on here too.

[ExiledRed]

I agree that age of the teams is of little relevance. There are football clubs in India that were established in 1880's ... yet Indian football is as obscure as it ever has been.

Exactly, if the product is crap, it doesnt matter how old it is.

[Rudi]

My point was that soccer existed in some form on this continent, and MLS is an evolution of those failures.

Anyway, dont the metrostars have a connection to the cosmos?

It's irrelevant anyway, I still think that pretending we dont have to elevate the standards in this league drastically because its only ten years old, is a cop out.
Nah, the MetroStars have no connection to the Cosmos whatsoever. The Cosmos name is owned by Giorgio Chinaglia, who has some pie-in-the-sky dream to bring the team back one day.

I think what's missing from the discussion is the fact that the standards in the league have increased dramatically since the first kick of a ball back in 1996.

I've been following the league since its inception, and let me tell you that the level of play, along with the level of professionalism, is light years ahead of what it was back in the early days.

Imagine ridiculous gimmicks like a ten minute overtime to settle draws, followed by a shootout. Or a game clock that counts up, and has no extra time, but can be paused by the referee. Once the clock hits 90, the game is over, no ifs, ands or buts.

Those are just some of the absolutely retarded things that went on in the league pre-Don Garber. I know a lot of people like to rip on him, but Garber took over from the first commissioner Doug Logan and reversed a lot of the stupid Americanisms that the Logan-era MLS thought would cater to the general sports crowd in the States.

Garber convinced the board to get MLS in line with FIFA's laws of the game. And while there are a lot of things that a lot of people would love to see abolished or loosened up on, the league has been incredibly deliberate in its slow and steady growth method, and with good reason. It very nearly folded in 2000, but the surprise revenues of Crew Stadium (built in 99) convinced the owners that there was a way to make money in soccer.

That wasn't even a decade ago, and here we have a bunch of people calling for the abolishment of the salary cap and the parity rules that have kept the league afloat up to this point. That wouldn't be mindful of the very tenuous history of the game on this continent (north of the Rio Grande).

There is a league that was much more in line with Euro ideals, where owners could spend as much or little as they wanted. It's called the USL, and it was the only game in town for years before MLS showed up.

[ExiledRed]

Eloquently put, and very informative.

I concede defeat :)

[james]

what about the J-League???????

That started in what 1994 i think?

Apparently they went through some same stuff MLS did in early years. They apparently had similar stupid rules like having over time and clock stoppage. But after a few years the league almost folded and the league decided to follow Europe rules. THey also added the 1 table format with 2 divisions and included prmotion and relegation.

They did all this in just a few years and I herd today teams like Urawa Reds have a salary of over $65 US Salary. Some teams in that league ge get +40,000 fans a game, Urawa Reds +60,000. MLS should look up to the J-League. Maybe hire some people in management to come work for MLS, sort this shit out!

[ExiledRed]

what about the J-League???????

That started in what 1994 i think?

Apparently they went through some same stuff MLS did in early years. They apparently had similar stupid rules like having over time and clock stoppage. But after a few years the league almost folded and the league decided to follow Europe rules. THey also added the 1 table format with 2 divisions and included prmotion and relegation.

They did all this in just a few years and I herd today teams like Urawa Reds have a salary of over $65 US Salary. Some teams in that league ge get +40,000 fans a game, Urawa Reds +60,000. MLS should look up to the J-League. Maybe hire some people in management to come work for MLS, sort this shit out!

Excellent example.

[The Kingpin]

what about the J-League???????

That started in what 1994 i think?

Apparently they went through some same stuff MLS did in early years. They apparently had similar stupid rules like having over time and clock stoppage. But after a few years the league almost folded and the league decided to follow Europe rules. THey also added the 1 table format with 2 divisions and included prmotion and relegation.

They did all this in just a few years and I herd today teams like Urawa Reds have a salary of over $65 US Salary. Some teams in that league ge get +40,000 fans a game, Urawa Reds +60,000. MLS should look up to the J-League. Maybe hire some people in management to come work for MLS, sort this shit out!

Bang on. You can make all the concessions you want for the MLS and it's leadership, but one fact is sure, the league is stagnating. To placate this they are trying even more erroneous tactics such as the Beckham/DP rule, etc. As I mentioned on Red Patch Live! long ago, this was always destined to be a flop, it is a failed PR stunt that has even further hurt the leagues credibility. And for those who suggest "this is our league, who cares what others think"... Those "others" also include players, and it will be increasingly more difficult to bring quality players to a league with credibility this low. The MLS just took a major downturn, how quickly will they adjust? My guess is not so quickly...

[nascarguy]

Beckham and the england team can go fuck them self. i hope la makes ac and beckham pay.

beckham sould have never made a deal to come to the mls the good think that he did was the DP rule.


you know what it would fun if la made it to the playoff next year with that loser beckham.

you say this hurt the leagues credibility not by me I think it hurts beckham more he is not the time star that everyone make up to be anymore.

beckham not a team player

[RPB_RED_NATION_RPB]

Cambridge (GALT- PRE 1973) ontario !

Galt Football Club!! Football was on the right track in this country.....what went wrong! :)

http://www.soccer.on.ca/OSN.nsf/c1bfa845a2dec3bf85256b0b005d4116/aa9748d025acbeef85256fb00072ca4d?OpenDocument

[pubboy]

Tabloid style journalism is mickey mouse.
Having "feature" sunshine girls that look like they were brought in for a photo shoot after their shift at a low end peeler bar is mickey mouse.
People who live is glass houses...

I think you may be confusing the Canadian version of The Sun and the English version. Couldnt agree more about the canadian 'sunshine girls', but the UK version (where this article was taken from) is page 3 - see attached (as has been copied on this site before)

Oh yes - the UK Sun is a pile of crap that nobody really takes seriously - apart from page 3 that is !! :D

http://www.page3.com/

[MUFC_Niagara]

I agree with everything ExiledRed has said, been saying it for a while now.

[MUFC_Niagara]

what about the J-League???????

That started in what 1994 i think?

Apparently they went through some same stuff MLS did in early years. They apparently had similar stupid rules like having over time and clock stoppage. But after a few years the league almost folded and the league decided to follow Europe rules. THey also added the 1 table format with 2 divisions and included prmotion and relegation.

They did all this in just a few years and I herd today teams like Urawa Reds have a salary of over $65 US Salary. Some teams in that league ge get +40,000 fans a game, Urawa Reds +60,000. MLS should look up to the J-League. Maybe hire some people in management to come work for MLS, sort this shit out!

Very true....

[ensco]

I'd also like to point out that the NASL had more success than people generally give it credit for. There were at least 10 teams drawing crowds similar to today's average MLS gate (ie 15,000 per game).

The NASL had many problems, but fan support wasn't one of them.

No to the point of this thread: There are at least 30 quality young North Americans in Europe now, all of whom are MLS caliber, mostly playing in Scandinavia - how many young Europeans are there in MLS? Zero (maybe one if Frei makes it).

I think the reality is that, until MLS stops losing so many North American players to Norway, Sweden and Denmark, the league cannot be taken seriously in a global context, much as I love TFC

[Fort York Redcoat]

The main reason of the Mickey Mouse moniker is fear of the unknown. How can a league that is so young, coming from a nation that doesn't have a long tradition in football poach a football icon?

The answer is $$$. America is still the land of opportunity and that woos some after they've tasted tradition. We couldn't do it all the same way here with our league because it's a different world (and century) from when other leagues started up.

We'll always be Mickey Mouse just because of where we are. It's time to say "wever" and keep tweaking our league to something that will grow it to the size and stregth it can be.

[Oldtimer]

I have no problem with having a salary cap, it's a great idea. The only problem is that it's too low to bring the game to the next level.

Also I don't agree with some posters that MLS is all that bad. It is what it is. It's not the Premiership/La Liga/Serie A. I get that. But it's decent enough footie at a good price. I watched the league for a year or two before TFC, and was surprised to find a decent level of play. Plus, with TFC, now it's ours.

Do gridiron lines on pitches bother me? You bet. But the league is not crap.

You want crap? Well the Lynx pretty well exemplified it. However, even USL has it's entertaining moments, and sometimes you get to see an up-and-coming player (like DeRo was with the Lynx) getting started in their career.

[rocker]

i'd hate to see the cap tossed. ya never know when your team will be the one who no longer spends money, and then you watch the big spenders buy championships (or a least, buy a greater chance of a championship).

MLS definitely needs to raise the cap, but they have to be prudent. There's no sense raising the cap to a point that strains league finances.

I bet all those Euro league teams (well, except for the big spenders) would love to have MLS's financial parity the way expenses are spiralling out of control in some leagues.

[TorontoBlades]

If these so-called business minds of the MLS knew how to spend within their means, there would be no need for a salary cap.

KC Wizards sell three tickets a year, 4 real kits and a couple of knock offs, another couple for t-shirts here and there....subtract their rent at the baseball park and their self-imposed cap should be about four dollars

TFC sells out every game, with a pretty solid foundation to seel out in years to come (if competitive), merch flies off the shelf, sponsorship, tv rights...all of that....our salary should be much higher

MLS wants competitiveness and parity - make it relative to the franchise's abilty to promote a team in the right market, and the supporters in that market to back their team up with support

[Plenty of Trout]

I'll be honest -- if it were NOT for the outstanding atmosphere at BMO field, my interest in the MSL would be NIL.

I love football and will watch it at the high international levels, but MSL can be difficult to watch at times.

However, being in the BMO stands just makes it all worthwhile.

If that atmosphere wasn't there, neither would I.

Passion is contagious!

[Beach_Red]

I'd also like to point out that the NASL had more success than people generally give it credit for. There were at least 10 teams drawing crowds similar to today's average MLS gate (ie 15,000 per game).

The NASL had many problems, but fan support wasn't one of them.

No to the point of this thread: There are at least 30 quality young North Americans in Europe now, all of whom are MLS caliber, mostly playing in Scandinavia - how many young Europeans are there in MLS? Zero (maybe one if Frei makes it).

I think the reality is that, until MLS stops losing so many North American players to Norway, Sweden and Denmark, the league cannot be taken seriously in a global context, much as I love TFC


So what did happen to the NASL? It survived into the early 80's, which was about the time that the NBA emerged as a major sport and college football and basketball took over TV. Was it marketing?

Anyway, as ExiledRed pointed out, times have changed dramatically. "Globalization" is more than just a buzzword now and it works in soccer's favour.

And I also think a salary cap is a good idea, it just needs to be raised. pretty much the #1 thing that turns people off of sports is ridiculously high player salaries and ticket prices. Baseball can still offer low prices tickets because they play 1000 games a year (or it seems like).

The one thing working against soccer in North America is there are no feeder leagues. The NCAA develops players for football and basketball, but even more importantly, it develops fans.

As much as MLS is improving its rules, NCAA needs to do that, too.

[Beach_Red]

I come from a city in Denmark with about 100,000 people (Aalborg) and the local team outspends TFC 5 times on players -- easily. They'd KILL us if they played us, too. So would any other club in Denmark, a country with a population smaller than the GTA.


That's history and culture, though. Probably most good junior hockey teams in Canada could take on the Danish national team ;).

It seems though that people here rarely mention what out of control spending is doing to soccer in Europe - though plenty of European commentators talk about it. I still say we'll have to wait and see what effect foreign billionaire owners have over a generation. It's not really the best model to follow.

[koryo]

MLS is Mickey Mouse league simply because the powers that be have no vision to make it better. The league infrastructure is geared towards mediocrity for the following reasons:

- they market it to the 'family day out' crowd in the States
- they won't invest in competent officiating
- they cultivate a style of play that, frankly, doesn't sit well with North Americans
- they won't admit that certain franchises are failures and, by insisting on propping them up via revenue sharing, are sparing the league blushes in the short by not having any teams fold but denying the league the chance to evolve in the long-term.

This all points to a lack of vision. Hence, Mickey Mouse.

[koryo]

That's history and culture, though. Probably most good junior hockey teams in Canada could take on the Danish national team ;).

It seems though that people here rarely mention what out of control spending is doing to soccer in Europe - though plenty of European commentators talk about it. I still say we'll have to wait and see what effect foreign billionaire owners have over a generation. It's not really the best model to follow.

I'm all for capped wages - as European football is devouring itself through out-of-control expenses. But this league needs a higher wage cap.

[MUFC_Niagara]

Ya, along with Koryo....this league needs an overhaul....there is no growth because some of these shitty franchises that are being propped up won't allow it. Also, as has been said before.....stop catering to the soccer moms....appeal to football fans and the league will take off. Football is a niche sport in North America and there are enough ex-pats from football lovong nations and people who like proper football leagues to make it work.

[Beach_Red]

This all points to a lack of vision. Hence, Mickey Mouse.

Or, it all points to an incredibly competitive sports marketplace and a league looking for a niche, a way to drive a tiny wedge that can open up in the future.

Taking on the NFL, MLB, NBA and NCAA head-on would take billions of dollars (and cost millions of lives! ;)).

If they can't get the adults today, maybe they can actually get the the kids and the league can grow up along with them.

[TFCREDNWHITE]

Nah, the MetroStars have no connection to the Cosmos whatsoever. The Cosmos name is owned by Giorgio Chinaglia, who has some pie-in-the-sky dream to bring the team back one day.



There is a league that was much more in line with Euro ideals, where owners could spend as much or little as they wanted. It's called the USL, and it was the only game in town for years before MLS showed up.


Well, i think one of the problems that we have in our minds is that when you look at what we are accustom to:

NHL - Best collection of Hockey players in the world.

NFL - Best collection of American Footballers in the world.

MLB - Best collection of Baseballers in the world.


We just need MLS, Garber, Team owners, fans, sponsers, tv contracts, EVERYONE to step up and make a big contribution. I agree that Garber has been instrumental so far, but shit, we have a ways to go!!

footy in has been around a long long time in this continent. so, no excuses.

USSF - since 1913
FMF(mexican federation) - 1927
CSA- 1912/1913

Thats a long ass time, to get your T's crossed and I's dotted!!!:o

[Fort York Redcoat]

Well, i think one of the problems that we have in our minds is that when you look at what we are accustom to:

NHL - Best collection of Hockey players in the world.

NFL - Best collection of American Footballers in the world.

MLB - Best collection of Baseballers in the world.


We just need MLS, Garber, Team owners, fans, sponsers, tv contracts, EVERYONE to step up and make a big contribution. I agree that Garber has been instrumental so far, but shit, we have a ways to go!!

footy in has been around a long long time in this continent. so, no excuses.

USSF - since 1913
FMF(mexican federation) - 1927
CSA- 1912/1913

Thats a long ass time, to get your T's crossed and I's dotted!!!:o

The flipside to that is that we've actually had competition for the sport here whereas the other leagues we're discussing have not. The focus has been on our domestic sports.

I don't think Mexico have much to improve on as the MLS countries.

[TFCREDNWHITE]

The flipside to that is that we've actually had competition for the sport here whereas the other leagues we're discussing have not. The focus has been on our domestic sports.

I don't think Mexico have much to improve on as the MLS countries.

I fully agree with you. I was just pointing out that we have had a very long time to get our act together...

[Oldtimer]

MLS is Mickey Mouse league simply because the powers that be have no vision to make it better. The league infrastructure is geared towards mediocrity for the following reasons:

- they market it to the 'family day out' crowd in the States
- they won't invest in competent officiating
- they cultivate a style of play that, frankly, doesn't sit well with North Americans
- they won't admit that certain franchises are failures and, by insisting on propping them up via revenue sharing, are sparing the league blushes in the short by not having any teams fold but denying the league the chance to evolve in the long-term.

This all points to a lack of vision. Hence, Mickey Mouse.

Unfortunately, MLS can't do much about the officiating but complain. By national federation rules, the refs come from the USSF and the CSA. MLS can make requests/recommendations, but the federations run the show. :(

[MisterMacphisto]

Too all the pompous, overseas football fans who slag the MLS:

Yes, we know its a Mickey Mouse league. They must be some fucking football geniuses to figure that out. So what, fuck you anyways. And you can stick your David Beckham up your ass.

My children's, children's, children's, children's, children will kick your ass at football and MLS will be the world's dominant league.... Not.

[jloome]

MLS is an odd thing.

We know so little about the actual financing of the clubs involvled -- their bottom-line losses (and some profits) seem to bear no relationship to what we can outwardly see as ongoing expense and revenue, increasing the likelihood that wealthy owners use them for debt write-downs from other holdings.

Conversely, Don Garber is firmly in touch with the financial reality, that MLS is still largely a second-tier U.S. pro sport, that draws 10,000 to 15,000 and, as such, is seen by gonzo competitive North Americans as second-rate.

The ensuing cost-control environment, while necessary to some degree, can to some extent turn that perception into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Typically, however, these discussions and debates always focus on the salary cap, and adding quality to the league through purchasing. But I think MLS's real long-term plan, as a single-entity business structure, is to build a grassroots base of soccer support in the U.S. That's why it has pretty much every team furthering their urban outreach through academies, local trials and affiliations with local minor soccer.

Conversely, Garber must try to maximize revenue with minimal expense, so the league develops a "show pony" system, the DP. He has stated publicly that he doesn't expect to draw the hardcore multicultural fans Toronto has in U.S. centres, because many south of border pray at the cult of Euro football and he doesn't think they're convertible.

So instead, MLS taps the curiosity factor in each team having one or two really talented players, then mines the college ranks for players, keeping costs down because the college system is light-years behind youth development across the pond.

I suspect this is a very long-term view, with the expectation that it'll take another full generation having kids of their own who are raised on the "local club" -- a necessity hammered home by TFC's success as a community entity, not just a sports franchise.

If it's a league that expects decade-by-decade improvement, as opposed to the year-to-year view, it might be another 20 years before the league is at the point where it can compete financially with similar-sized European leagues (Denmark, Norway, Turkey) to buy players, let alone with the big guys.

But at least, unlike past models, it will still be around. And as the standard bearer for community support and a profitable operation (not rowdy fans, DC lovers, the combo of rowdy and community), TFC will probably have a real lore of success to it by the time this has all taken place.

[Roogsy]

I'd say that is pretty bang on Jeremy.

[Steve]

If these so-called business minds of the MLS knew how to spend within their means, there would be no need for a salary cap.

KC Wizards sell three tickets a year, 4 real kits and a couple of knock offs, another couple for t-shirts here and there....subtract their rent at the baseball park and their self-imposed cap should be about four dollars

TFC sells out every game, with a pretty solid foundation to seel out in years to come (if competitive), merch flies off the shelf, sponsorship, tv rights...all of that....our salary should be much higher

MLS wants competitiveness and parity - make it relative to the franchise's abilty to promote a team in the right market, and the supporters in that market to back their team up with support

Because the one thing that will make KC a success is losing on the field. Seriously, sure, TFC would be able to spend more (though not increase attendence much in the short term as we are sold out), but the mid-low market teams will crash and burn. It's one thing to support a losing team you have history with, but if you're a new fan just checking the team out, losing 5-0 is not going to make you a fan for life. MLS is in a stage of slow, measured growth. That means salary cap and parity. It means not letting owners spend themselves broke to get a winner, and not forcing owners of smaller market teams to destroy their bottom line just to win a few games. If MLS did what many of you seem to want, spend as much as possible, I see the league folding within 5-10 years (this economic climate would destroy teams going into too much debt). I would rather the league grew smartly, with measured increases in salary caps, more player transfer fees (out), and more focus on a strong academy system then go for broke now and leave us with nothing. MLS just isn't strong enough yet, but give it some time.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Steve you're talking sense.

I think most of us are impatient to see the league the way we know it should be if every fan at the game looked at the game as we do.

[James Oliphant]

The NASL existed before the internet, Satellite TV, Fifa soccer video games, the EPL (and it's global popularity), Fashionista celebrity players, jersey sales, sports branding ....I could go on....the world has changed huge since.

The comparison doesnt hold up, because there are a hundred more ways to market the sport now, and even if there was a need for salary capping, $2 million is pathetic..."piss ass" money even.

And yet there are still just 2 teams in this league who are profitable...

[Plenty of Trout]

And yet there are still just 2 teams in this league who are profitable...


Isn't that just scary if true?

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

Many top leagues around the world are close to 100 years old.
MLS is just over 10 years old. Enough said.

thank you!! some TFC fans expect TFC to be playing premiership type football and signing big name players and that is bullshit. MLS is going about business the right way which is why it is stil around and in Canada now. The DP issue is garbage...we DONT need one.... some jealous TFC fans figure if other teams have one we MUST have one...wrong. TFC should continue thier building as they have been, make progress on the way.

[Super]

I find it insulting that the money we, the supporters, put into our club is not allowed to go towards buying a better product on the field. I'm sure MLSE pocketed 20 million dollars last season, and the cost of the product is one tenth of that.

Mickey Mouse!

[Steve]

I find it insulting that the money we, the supporters, put into our club is not allowed to go towards buying a better product on the field. I'm sure MLSE pocketed 20 million dollars last season, and the cost of the product is one tenth of that.

Mickey Mouse!

I think you're on the low side, based on my 0 knowledge about the financials of MLSE, I'm going to have to pick a figure closer to 2 gagillion dollars.

[Super]

I think you're on the low side, based on my 0 knowledge about the financials of MLSE, I'm going to have to pick a figure closer to 2 gagillion dollars.

I should have added: from TFC alone.

Hamas Mickey Mouse says;

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/hamas-mickey-mouse.jpg

[Stryker]

I'll say this much.. MLS logo, BIGTIME mickey mouse.
I hate it so much, it looks like a house league logo.

http://www.soccerbyives.net/soccer_by_ives/images/2008/04/04/mls_logo.jpg

[Fort York Redcoat]

Again with the logo? Like La Liga's is the epitome of tradition. I just want something to stay the same in this league for more than a year. What trophy will the champions win this year?

[Oldtimer]

I'll say this much.. MLS logo, BIGTIME mickey mouse.
I hate it so much, it looks like a house league logo.



50 years from now, it will be a "classic" logo, just like with the old established leagues.

[Super]

I don't mind the logo. It's the revenue sharing model that I don't like. I guess if we were Kansas City we'd love the model, but now we're in a situation where we have to get rid of players to make room for others under the tiny $2 million+ cap, and all of this while the club is taking in 20+ million bucks a year. THAT is what is Mickey Mouse -- when competition and success is discouraged or made random and failure is encouraged and rewarded through draft picks.

[Fort York Redcoat]

until the academy system is preferred to NCAA the draft won't go anywhere. Until you have kids choosing acadamies for a shot at big time $$$ vs school and the lock on minimal $$ playing you won't see major change.

[Beach_Red]

I don't mind the logo. It's the revenue sharing model that I don't like. I guess if we were Kansas City we'd love the model, but now we're in a situation where we have to get rid of players to make room for others under the tiny $2 million+ cap, and all of this while the club is taking in 20+ million bucks a year. THAT is what is Mickey Mouse -- when competition and success is discouraged or made random and failure is encouraged and rewarded through draft picks.

Don't worry, it's just a stage. Revenue sharing will only stay around until the league is profitable and each team is sold to independent owners. Then their greed and egos will get the better of them, they'll do away with revenue sharing and the salary cap and a few teams will become much stronger and dominate, driving the weaker ones into bankrupcy and shortly after that the whole league will fold.

Even though it'll have a strong fan base, just like NASL ;).

[Beach_Red]

until the academy system is preferred to NCAA the draft won't go anywhere. Until you have kids choosing acadamies for a shot at big time $$$ vs school and the lock on minimal $$ playing you won't see major change.

Okay, wait, is that a good thing? Is that the choice you want kids to make?

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

MLS would be mickey mouse if the allow the Witecaps if they are ever excepted into the league to use BC Place...thats mickey mouse....The Galaxy should not even speak to Milan, they have Becks for this year and Milan cant do diddly squat about it, Galaxy should ask for a 100 million dollar transfer figure, Milan would back off.

[Super]

Don't worry, it's just a stage. Revenue sharing will only stay around until the league is profitable and each team is sold to independent owners. Then their greed and egos will get the better of them, they'll do away with revenue sharing and the salary cap and a few teams will become much stronger and dominate, driving the weaker ones into bankrupcy and shortly after that the whole league will fold.

Even though it'll have a strong fan base, just like NASL ;).

You don't have to take it as far as completely removing the salary cap. Tell the clubs that if they want to spend beyond the cap, they have to show proof that they have the money to spend, and that it's not borrowed money. As it is right now millions of TFC dollars go into the MLSE organization instead of on the field. We could have a better product on the field, but the league doesn't want that.

Just make it a rule that clubs can't spend beyond their means. Put in place individual salary caps based on income and expenses.

OR remain Mickey Mouse and the world will continue to laugh.

[Beach_Red]

You don't have to take it as far as completely removing the salary cap. Tell the clubs that if they want to spend beyond the cap, they have to show proof that they have the money to spend, and that it's not borrowed money. As it is right now millions of TFC dollars go into the MLSE organization instead of on the field. We could have a better product on the field, but the league doesn't want that.

Just make it a rule that clubs can't spend beyond their means. Put in place individual salary caps based on income and expenses.

OR remain Mickey Mouse and the world will continue to laugh.


Yeah, I know, I was just making fun.

I think over time you'll see more leagues in the world work out these kind of sliding salary caps as they realize very strong and very weak teams affect the whole league.

MLS is nowhere near strong enough, and who knows if it ever will be. It's a tough call, walk before you run, but if it doesn't start running when it's able, that's not good either. The world will laugh for a little while yet, but if soccer ever does catch on in North America that laughing will stop. North America still has plenty of money and that's all it takes to build a winner.

[maninb]

"Tell the clubs that if they want to spend beyond the cap, they have to show proof that they have the money to spend, and that it's not borrowed money."??????????

LOL!!!!! You can't be SERIOUS! Anything like that would be laughed at in the US because of all the anti-trust laws....dude if you're gonna post stuff like that at least do your homework...

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

NFL works within a salary cap sort of, they dont spend like baseball or basketball.
A raise in the MLS cap should only benefit players making below 50,000/season so they can make a living from the came, not to bring old marquee names over...our talent first!!

[ilikemusic]

I'll say this much.. MLS logo, BIGTIME mickey mouse.
I hate it so much, it looks like a house league logo.

http://www.soccerbyives.net/soccer_by_ives/images/2008/04/04/mls_logo.jpg

But there is a cleat in it! :lol:


Anyway, the league is mickey mouse for the way it conducts business. The entire Beckham signing was the most Mickey Mouse thing possible.

Discovery claims are mickey mouse. The Trillium Cup is mickey mouse. Not honoring FIFA dates (especially when CONCACAF is playing) is mickey mouse.

MLS' negative reputation in the international community is not entirely un-justified. It is making moves to change that, but it isnt there yet.

[koryo]

Ya, along with Koryo....this league needs an overhaul....

I've needed an overhaul long before this league :)

[rocker]

the international community would look down upon MLS no matter what happens. There's a bias towards America in this world.

Few people even know how MLS is run (actually, a lot of MLS fans don't know how MLS is run) so whether they have discovery claims or Trillium Cups has nothing to do with it. Bias is bias no matter the details.

The only way MLS would gain respect would be through buying up their players and kicking their asses in games.

people need to stop kissing Europe's ass and just enjoy MLS for what it is. If you guys keep comparing it to Europe, MLS will never win in your lifetime. In the meantime, enjoy the games, just as people in Norwich or Preston enjoy their lower-standard game.

[ensco]

So what did happen to the NASL? It survived into the early 80's, which was about the time that the NBA emerged as a major sport and college football and basketball took over TV. Was it marketing?

Anyway, as ExiledRed pointed out, times have changed dramatically. "Globalization" is more than just a buzzword now and it works in soccer's favour.

And I also think a salary cap is a good idea, it just needs to be raised. pretty much the #1 thing that turns people off of sports is ridiculously high player salaries and ticket prices. Baseball can still offer low prices tickets because they play 1000 games a year (or it seems like).

The one thing working against soccer in North America is there are no feeder leagues. The NCAA develops players for football and basketball, but even more importantly, it develops fans.

As much as MLS is improving its rules, NCAA needs to do that, too.

These interrelated forces killed the NASL:

1) Overexpansion into too many markets, too quickly (there were 24 teams)
2) Salary structure (there was no cap) - most teams were losing huge amounts each year, leading to constant ownership changes and relocations
3) Changes in world football salaries - 1980s is when Euro football salaries started to rise dramatically, and the Beckenbauer- and Cruyff- type player could make comparable money finishing up their careers in Europe or Asia (in the 1970s, they were being paid huge premiums in NASL)
4) No network TV deal. There was no ESPN in those days. Given the spending on players, they had to have one to survive. They were always supposedly on the verge of getting one....

[ExiledRed]

These things killed the NASL:

1) Overexpansion into too many markets, too quickly (there were 24 teams)
2) Salary structure (there was no cap) - most teams were losing huge amounts each year, leading to constant ownership changes and relocations
3) Changes in world football salaries - 1980s is when Euro football salaries started to rise dramatically, and the Beckenbauer- and Cruyff- type player could make comparable money finishing up their careers in Europe or Asia (in the 1970s, they were being paid huge premiums in NASL)
4) No network TV deal. There was no ESPN in those days. Given the spending on players, they had to have one to survive. They were always supposedly on the verge of getting one....

Am I corect in assuming that NASL didn't necessarily encourage or grow domestic talent, in favour of bringing it in from abroad. So when 3) happened, there was bugger all to replace the stars with?

[Kayed]

I should have added: from TFC alone.

Hamas Mickey Mouse says;

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/hamas-mickey-mouse.jpg
What the fuck does that shit have to do with this thread?

[Beach_Red]

Am I corect in assuming that NASL didn't necessarily encourage or grow domestic talent, in favour of bringing it in from abroad. So when 3) happened, there was bugger all to replace the stars with?


There's always the feeling that you need stars in order to get people to pay to see the product. Unfortunately you can't just manufacture sports stars overnight. there was almost no youth soccer in North America back then.

I always got the feeling that NASL didn't want to start small and grow. They were playing in big football stadiums, weren't they?

[ensco]

Am I corect in assuming that NASL didn't necessarily encourage or grow domestic talent, in favour of bringing it in from abroad. So when 3) happened, there was bugger all to replace the stars with?

Yes, absolutely. USMNT was a joke in those days. US famously lost 7-0 to Poland, and 10-0 to Italy's B team, in the same week in 1975. Canada was no good either, but we regularly beat them.

NCAA Soccer was nowhere near as good as it has become. Much typing on bigsoccer has been spilled on why NCAA soccer got so much better in 1980s, best theory I've read is that:

(i) Title IX (a 1972 act of US Congress that took a few years for its effects to be felt) forced US universities to spend on women's sports, which meant that more inexpensive men's sports, and those which both men and women played (ie soccer) benefited hugely.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_IX
(ii) the NASL succeeded in creating interest in youth soccer, which bore fruit after the league died (this is the part that really vexes me)

MLS owes a huge amount to the NASL. (Digression: I think I paid attention to BBtB's posts at first mostly because his "name" on here said to me that he understood this!) I am pumped to see a team with actual links to the NASL, the Sounders, enter the league.

If you don't know about this movie, rent it. It's a fantastic look back at the Cosmos:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0489247/

[ensco]

I always got the feeling that NASL didn't want to start small and grow. They were playing in big football stadiums, weren't they?

Yes. They were always gunning for that big TV contract, at least from the time Pele came to the Cosmos in 1975.

[Vindaloo]

Beckham and the england team can go fuck them self.........beckham not a team player

Jeez...how absurd of a comment. Opinion or not, you don't have to like Beckham or even think he's not a good footballer, I don't really care, but to say he isn't a team player is ridiculous. Beckham epitomises "team player". Anyone with an ounce of football knowledge can tell you that.

As for saying, "england team can go fuck themself". Besides needing a grammar lesson, you're a real classy fella.

[MUFC_Niagara]

Jeez...how absurd of a comment. Opinion or not, you don't have to like Beckham or even think he's not a good footballer, I don't really care, but to say he isn't a team player is ridiculous. Beckham epitomises "team player". Anyone with an ounce of football knowledge can tell you that.

As for saying, "england team can go fuck themself". Besides needing a grammar lesson, you're a real classy fella.

Have you met nascarguy? Chillaxxxx buddy...

[BlizzardBhoy]

Beckham is an all time great.

However, it must be said, the NASL did have way more world class players than MLS

Bobby Moore, Gerorge Best, Pele, Chinaglia, Franz Beckenbauer, Gordon Banks, Johan Cruyff, Ian McPhee (biased).

Best and Pele even played together in the 76 allstar game.

[james]

heres 6 easy things to do to inprove MLS:

1) Every team gets a jersey sponsor since some teams dont(San Jose, Kansas, Dallas, Colorado) It gains money for the club and looks more pro.

2) Make teams to change there stupid names and ugly crests so they dont sound and look like little kid soccer teams ( Kansas City Wizards, Columbus Crew, San Jose Earthquakes)

3) Stop marketting USA teams to just Soccer moms and kids. There are many hardcore soccer fans in the USA that they are missing out on.

4) Only Houston and New England will have NFL gridlines after this season. So either inforce them to find a way to get rid of these gridlines or get a new stadium. Blue Jays and Argos get the lines off, Seattle claim they will get the gridlines off for Sounder games....so that means there has to be a way for Houston and New England to do it. If they dont then they should make them move cities.

5) Make the league a 1-table format. This season every team play eachother at least 1 home and 1 away game. So travelling has nothing to do with needing a 2 division format because they already travel the same distance they would if they were to have a 1 table format.

6) and lastly and probably most inportantly, raise the salaray cap by a few million dollars. The skill on the field will double. MLS temas will be more competitive against eachother and foreign clubs like in Mexico, make Concacaf Champions League better to. It will get better players and encourage more North Americans to stay playing in North America. And it can attract more fans!

they do 6 of these things, most of these are pretty easy to do and the league will already be on a good path to not being so mickey mouse!

[BlizzardBhoy]

The MLS is viewed as Mickey Mouse league, particularly in the UK.

When we played Aston Villa it barely made news outside of Canada
This is all the BBC had to say about it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/a/aston_villa/6919026.stm

Didn't even mention the score!


I'd like to add a point 7)

To increase the quality of play in MLS there needs to be competition/hunger.
If a team aren't good enough - relegate them to a lower league. And promote from lower leagues. This is how it works in the rest of the world and it works well.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

heres 6 easy things to do to inprove MLS:

1) Every team gets a jersey sponsor since some teams dont(San Jose, Kansas, Dallas, Colorado) It gains money for the club and looks more pro.

2) Make teams to change there stupid names and ugly crests so they dont sound and look like little kid soccer teams ( Kansas City Wizards, Columbus Crew, San Jose Earthquakes)

3) Stop marketting USA teams to just Soccer moms and kids. There are many hardcore soccer fans in the USA that they are missing out on.

4) Only Houston and New England will have NFL gridlines after this season. So either inforce them to find a way to get rid of these gridlines or get a new stadium. Blue Jays and Argos get the lines off, Seattle claim they will get the gridlines off for Sounder games....so that means there has to be a way for Houston and New England to do it. If they dont then they should make them move cities.

5) Make the league a 1-table format. This season every team play eachother at least 1 home and 1 away game. So travelling has nothing to do with needing a 2 division format because they already travel the same distance they would if they were to have a 1 table format.

6) and lastly and probably most inportantly, raise the salaray cap by a few million dollars. The skill on the field will double. MLS temas will be more competitive against eachother and foreign clubs like in Mexico, make Concacaf Champions League better to. It will get better players and encourage more North Americans to stay playing in North America. And it can attract more fans!

they do 6 of these things, most of these are pretty easy to do and the league will already be on a good path to not being so mickey mouse!

hmmmm
1) getting a sponsor in america is not as easy as in europe, companies
are not breaking down the doors for that.
2) Nicknames for clubs should be unique, and have appeal.
3) Kids are the future ticket buyers...get them interested now, before
the try baseball, basketball etc.
4) NFl lines can go but the Jays and Argos have separate pitches, they don;t share.
5) No to the one table standings in won;t work so dont try it.
6) Raising the salary cap will mean some teams lose more money...
bye bye MLS...increaint by 500,000 per year and only for players who are making the minimu so they can make a living.

[james]

hmmmm
1) getting a sponsor in america is not as easy as in europe, companies
are not breaking down the doors for that.
2) Nicknames for clubs should be unique, and have appeal.
3) Kids are the future ticket buyers...get them interested now, before
the try baseball, basketball etc.
4) NFl lines can go but the Jays and Argos have separate pitches, they don;t share.
5) No to the one table standings in won;t work so dont try it.
6) Raising the salary cap will mean some teams lose more money...
bye bye MLS...increaint by 500,000 per year and only for players who are making the minimu so they can make a living.

1) all the teams in USL seem to have sponsors....so why couldnt some MLS teams, i just dont think some teams are looking for sponsors thats the problem.

2) Nicknames are fine...i dont mind teams like Seattle Sounders FC, or Colorado Rapids, they have pretty nice crests and sounds alright. But names like the Wizards? wtf, there team is named after a kids movie about a girl and her fucken little dog, and a better crest for the Wizards would be a crest of Dorothy kicking that fucken dog. And crests on teams like the earthquakes looks like somethin any kid with a crayon can draw, and Columbus Crew looks like they just asked 3 random guys off the street if they could take a picture of them and slapped it on there jersey and said its a crest.

3) kids are the future... i didnt say stop selling to kids and Soccer Moms, i said stop selling to JUST kids and soccer moms. Some teams seem to only be selling to kids and Soccer moms, they are not selling to the more hardcore soccer fans at all. Some teams dont like having Supporter clubs...thats a bad idea.

4) may be true...but how is Seattle saposidly getting these gridlines off? i dont know, either way they gotta find away to get them off, get a new stadium or move. You would never see a NHL game being played with Lacrose lines or a Baseball diamond with NFL lines all over it. So MLS shouldnt either.

5) why would 1 table not work? 98% soccer leagues around the world have 1-League table, including kids soccer leagues, Junior Leagues, Rec. Leagues, Pro Leagues and EVEN USL HAVE 1-LEAGUE TABLE. So why would it not work in MLS????

6) May be true, i dont know how much money teams got. Its probably the hardest thing to do out of these 6 things on the list. I know tho for sure some teams can afford the salary, exspecially TFC and Galaxy!!!!

[Shakes McQueen]

what about the J-League???????

That started in what 1994 i think?

Apparently they went through some same stuff MLS did in early years. They apparently had similar stupid rules like having over time and clock stoppage. But after a few years the league almost folded and the league decided to follow Europe rules. THey also added the 1 table format with 2 divisions and included prmotion and relegation.

They did all this in just a few years and I herd today teams like Urawa Reds have a salary of over $65 US Salary. Some teams in that league ge get +40,000 fans a game, Urawa Reds +60,000. MLS should look up to the J-League. Maybe hire some people in management to come work for MLS, sort this shit out!

1) Promotion/Relegation is not going to happen anytime soon. These teams are paying gobs of cash in order to get franchises, and they aren't going to do so with the threat of relegation looming.

2) The USL has everything you're looking for, yet it hasn't grown to the same scale the J-League has. On the flip side, MLS has a cap, and it pulls in higher attendance than USL teams. The two markets aren't the same.

North America is not the same as Europe, or Japan. Even with the miniscule cap we have now, only five teams are profitable.

The UK Sun can keep laughing at our league all they want. As revenues continue to rise (as they have been), salary cap will increase. As the cap increases, hopefully attendance will too. If an EPL-style cap-less league were to survive here, the USL would be the "major league" in North America, not MLS.

The reality is that North America has four other major established sports, with which soccer is being forced to compete. Soccer does not have the same cultural hold here, that it has elsewhere. MLS is trying to grow slowly into prominence, and I think it's going about it the right way.

And to whoever said "big clubs" are a good thing - I disagree. In leagues with a salary cap, every team can potentially be a winner. In the EPL, any of four whole clubs can be a winner. The relegation battle is more exciting, mostly because of the parity amongst the less talented sides!

I think a lot of people's views are coloured by the success TFC is having, in terms of attendance. It isn't like that everywhere. If the salary cap were to go, places like Columbus, Chivas, New England, and even New York, wouldn't be able to compete, and would wither away.

This slow, deliberate growth can be frustrating to the well supported markets, but it is necessary to build both the sport's popularity on this continent, as well as the league.

- Scott

[james]

Relegation will never work in North America im well aware, i just mentioned it cause its a dream, lol

i never said there was a problem with having a salary cap, infact i think the rest of the world soccer needs one. Hell some leagues in Europe you know 1 of 3 clubs is gonna win each and every year and it gets borring, the other 100 clubs got no chance. Salary gives chance and entertainment to all. However i think the salary cap shouldnt be so hardcore in MLS. If some teams sell all there tickets, merchandise and all then let them spend a bit more on players, just not to the extent of what you see Manchester United spending compared to say Wigan.

As for Soccer not being 1 of the big 4 established sports in Canada/USA pro leagues is very true. But this can also add a advantage to MLS in some ways. They can attract a new breed of sports fan, hell NHL,NBA,MLB they all sit down and are told when to cheer. The only hadcore fans maybe at college games or the odd NFL games who still got the dieing out old Skool stadiums. MLS can attract to the rare fans who are boored of the typical top pro league type fans who sit on there ass all game while paying $100, Europe/ South Anmerica type crazy fans maybe just the cup of tea for them if u attract them to it....problem some markets in MLS arent the right soccer market.


As for USL the reason MLS attracted more fans was cause much richer people put money into MLS then USL did. USL clubs played in parks and 5,000 seat stadiums (Lynx example) while MLS tryed to be the big boys and play in the big stadiums with bigger money, and got TV deals unlike USL. USL had right ideas tho, just not the money.

what i dont get is some teams in small cities and even towns in Europe, sometimes less then 100,000 population, such as some clubs in Denmark, sweden, Switzerland, Belgium even England 4th division, but yet they can spend $5 million on players while averaging 5,000 fans a game....thats an actual question? Why cant MLS do that, why we stuck at $2 million getting bigger crowds in bigger cities?????

[maninb]

" why w5) why would 1 table not work? 98% soccer leagues around the world have 1-League table, including kids soccer leagues, Junior Leagues, Rec. Leagues, Pro Leagues and EVEN USL HAVE 1-LEAGUE TABLE. So why would it not work in MLS????"

You would need to have a balanced home & away schedule. That would mean dropping 2 games currently...Doubtful most fans and owners would be willing to do that! That's the #1 reason for not having a ONE DIVISION league in MLS.

[Steve]

So, what I've learned from this thread:

1) MLS is the worst league in the world, everything sucks, the players suck, a team of 5 year olds (or 75 year old women) could beat most MLS clubs. Oh, but TFC is a pretty cool guy. Someone must have mixed up our registration, we were supposed to be in the EPL.

2) MLS owners know nothing about business. Most people in this thread, with their "I've been to a few games and own a calculator" degree can prove how much money MLS makes, and how much they need to be spending on players. Also, "you have to make money to spend money" must fit in here somewhere.

3) Not doing things like they do back in _______ is wrong and stupid. No matter what the reason may be for the change, it doesn't matter. Even if the league would collapse if it adopted changes to the structure, they need to adopt them anyway. Slow and steady growth is stupid, change everything now and you'll see. This is the same logic I use when driving. Sadly, I keep getting into head on collisions. I just keep telling the cops "Hey, that's how they drive in England, and it's worked for them for YEARS! Is it my fault these silly North Americans know nothing about driving?"

Is that about right?

[Oldtimer]

San Jose Earthquakes have a lot of history in their name, going back to the NASL. They should definitely keep the name and logo.

A lot of names in other leagues would seem stupid if they were starting out today. It's only the fact that the clubs are now "storied teams" that make them seem normal now.

One simple example:


In 1882 the Hotspur Football Club was formed by grammar school boys from the bible class at All Hallows Church. They were also members of Hotspur Cricket (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cricket) Club and it is thought that the name Hotspur was associated with Sir Henry Percy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_%27Hotspur%27_Percy) (Sir Harry Hotspur) who was "Harry Hotspur" of Shakespeare's Henry IV, part 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_IV,_part_1), and who lived locally during the 14th century and whose descendants owned land in the neighbourhood. In 1884 the club was renamed Tottenham Hotspur Football and Athletic Club to distinguish itself from another team called London Hotspur.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tottenham_Hotspur_F.C.

Okay, so you have a church kid's team named after some dead earl, that ends up sponsoring an adult team. It's name sounds like another club's name (just like Real Salt Lake/Real Madrid). Like MLSE sponsoring TFC, it was sponsored by an organization that mostly played another sport. If the Spurs were started in MLS today, people would say "what a joke!" yet it is one of those storied teams in the EPL.

The EPL, what a 'Mickey Mouse" league! :rolleyes:

So give MLS another 100 years, and the Quakes will be one of those "storied" clubs with a $100 million budget. So will the Wiz and the Crew.

[rocker]

So give MLS another 100 years, and the Quakes will be one of those "storied" clubs with a $100 million budget.

good point. And people in 1895 were not on the internet debating whether Spurs were mickey mouse or not. They just lived their lives and Spurs were a part of that. We have this ideology of professionalism and growth that pervades our minds and makes us compare all developments to that standard.

Back then, people didn't think that way. Actually, their rants woulda been about professionals. People in the late-1800s HATED professionalism and preferred the local, less talented amateur. The "improvement" of professionalism was a scary thing to them.

[Oldtimer]

Back then, people didn't think that way. Actually, their rants woulda been about professionals. People in the late-1800s HATED professionalism and preferred the local, less talented amateur. The "improvement" of professionalism was a scary thing to them.

So true. People forget their football history.

[felipe]

So, what I've learned from this thread:

1) MLS is the worst league in the world, everything sucks, the players suck, a team of 5 year olds (or 75 year old women) could beat most MLS clubs. Oh, but TFC is a pretty cool guy. Someone must have mixed up our registration, we were supposed to be in the EPL.

2) MLS owners know nothing about business. Most people in this thread, with their "I've been to a few games and own a calculator" degree can prove how much money MLS makes, and how much they need to be spending on players. Also, "you have to make money to spend money" must fit in here somewhere.

3) Not doing things like they do back in _______ is wrong and stupid. No matter what the reason may be for the change, it doesn't matter. Even if the league would collapse if it adopted changes to the structure, they need to adopt them anyway. Slow and steady growth is stupid, change everything now and you'll see. This is the same logic I use when driving. Sadly, I keep getting into head on collisions. I just keep telling the cops "Hey, that's how they drive in England, and it's worked for them for YEARS! Is it my fault these silly North Americans know nothing about driving?"

Is that about right?


LOL..too true

[james]

" why w5) why would 1 table not work? 98% soccer leagues around the world have 1-League table, including kids soccer leagues, Junior Leagues, Rec. Leagues, Pro Leagues and EVEN USL HAVE 1-LEAGUE TABLE. So why would it not work in MLS????"

You would need to have a balanced home & away schedule. That would mean dropping 2 games currently...Doubtful most fans and owners would be willing to do that! That's the #1 reason for not having a ONE DIVISION league in MLS.

i dont think dropping 1 home and 1 away game would have a huge affect on clubs. If it did they could easily add some friendlies or somethin. And anyways by 2010 there will be 16 teams.....play each team 1 home and 1 away = 30 games problem solved!!!

[Fort York Redcoat]

i dont think dropping 1 home and 1 away game would have a huge affect on clubs. If it did they could easily add some friendlies or somethin. And anyways by 2010 there will be 16 teams.....play each team 1 home and 1 away = 30 games problem solved!!!

Who has to agree? team owners dropping games = less $$$

Not that I wouldn't want it.

[james]

ya but its not the 1800's no more. Things are different today, back then teams had tiny stadiums if any at all there was no TV, there was no other soccer Leagues in the world, no sponsors or advertising, millions of things have changed since.

San Jose Earthquakes today have no connection with the NASL San Jose Earthquakes besides the fact that the team today stole the name because they are in the same city. The team folded back in 1984, and another MLS teams came and was called the San Jose Clash, they also folded. I mean just look at the team back then:

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd189/James_David_Champken/SanJoseEarthquakes.jpg

really this team has no connection with the NASL Earthquakes. They can stop stealling an old teams history. Get a new name and get a good crest!

[james]

San Jose Earthquakes have a lot of history in their name, going back to the NASL. They should definitely keep the name and logo.

A lot of names in other leagues would seem stupid if they were starting out today. It's only the fact that the clubs are now "storied teams" that make them seem normal now.

One simple example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tottenham_Hotspur_F.C.

Okay, so you have a church kid's team named after some dead earl, that ends up sponsoring an adult team. It's name sounds like another club's name (just like Real Salt Lake/Real Madrid). Like MLSE sponsoring TFC, it was sponsored by an organization that mostly played another sport. If the Spurs were started in MLS today, people would say "what a joke!" yet it is one of those storied teams in the EPL.

The EPL, what a 'Mickey Mouse" league! :rolleyes:

So give MLS another 100 years, and the Quakes will be one of those "storied" clubs with a $100 million budget. So will the Wiz and the Crew.

id be suprised if Kansas and Crew are around that long.

and the wiz are named after this:
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd189/James_David_Champken/Wiz.jpg

whatever teams like the spurs or any other teams were named after there is no way its as gay as this :p

[Blizzard]

ya but its not the 1800's no more. Things are different today, back then teams had tiny stadiums if any at all there was no TV, there was no other soccer Leagues in the world, no sponsors or advertising, millions of things have changed since.

San Jose Earthquakes today have no connection with the NASL San Jose Earthquakes besides the fact that the team today stole the name because they are in the same city. The team folded back in 1984, and another MLS teams came and was called the San Jose Clash, they also folded. I mean just look at the team back then:

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd189/James_David_Champken/SanJoseEarthquakes.jpg

really this team has no connection with the NASL Earthquakes. They can stop stealling an old teams history. Get a new name and get a good crest!

James, the San Jose Clash did not fold. They changed their name to the Earthquake after the 1999 season.

That said, I do agree with you that this Earthquake does not have any connection to the previous MLS Earthquake or the NASL Earthquake.

That said, I have no problem with the current club using Earthquake. A connection to the past is important. It isn't 100% necessary but it's not necessarilly a bad thing either.

B

[Blizzard]

id be suprised if Kansas and Crew are around that long.

and the wiz are named after this:
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd189/James_David_Champken/Wiz.jpg

whatever teams like the spurs or any other teams were named after there is no way its as gay as this :p

Do people mock the NBA's Washington Wizards the same way? Hey man, I hat the name too but I think there is a double standard here.

[james]

Do people mock the NBA's Washington Wizards the same way? Hey man, I hat the name too but I think there is a double standard here.

no most people dont, but i actually always have. Changing from the Washington Bullets to the Washington Wizards was bad. Hell i wish Kansas city wizards used the bullets now that washington aint using it anymore.
Be alot cooler then the wizard of OZ.

[Fort York Redcoat]

yeah but they probably would've changed the name after the DC sniper struck anyway.

[Beach_Red]

Weren't the Dallas Cowboys originally the Colt 45s?