PDA

View Full Version : Diving Under Video Review, would it work?



Pookie
01-25-2009, 01:18 PM
One of the more pressing issues this game faces is the issue of players feigning injuring to draw an advantage. Particularly, in the box.

So far, FIFA has rejected the idea of using video replay in incidents of suspected diving. The assumption is that using video replay would interrupt the flow of the game and removes responsibility for the match from the Referee.

But what if they took that concept and modified it.

Accept that you might get the call wrong on the field. That's what happens now.

But use video review post game. Review any and all tape in which a player fell to the pitch. If it can be determined that a player did not actually lose a leg as was suggested on the field, then apply a yellow card post match. Usually, the most obvious cases are easy to call.

Players would then have these yellows added to their total accumulation and would be subject to league penalties.

In MLS, a player that receives 5 yellows in a season receives an automatic 1 game suspension. You then only need 3 for the next one game suspension.

Players have a good behaviour incentive in that if you are 1 yellow away from a suspension (eg. you have 4), you are placed on warning. If after being on warning you play 3 consecutive games without a yellow, you get one taken off your total.

I understand each league has their own treatment for accumulating yellows/reds over a season.

Think it would fly? Would players play more honestly?

Could Italy actually field a team under these rules? ;)

Stryker
01-25-2009, 01:26 PM
It would have to be done post match as you suggested or else we'd have 15 minites added time.
Forza Italia!

Shakes McQueen
01-25-2009, 05:40 PM
I support straight red cards for clear cases of diving. Giving it a yellow, and treating it like any other routine bad foul, isn't doing justice to how repugnant it is.

Let the ref hand out the card on occasions where he can clearly see a dive has occurred.

Have FIFA officials review every match, and also hand out lengthy suspensions after the fact, if the officials miss a dive that happened in the match. Kind of like how the NHL head office occasionally hands out suspensions for cheap shots in a game, that went un-penalized by the ref. This ensures that even if a player gets away with it in the match, he is sure to be punished the next day.

Start with a three game ban for the first instance, and add two games for every subsequent occurrence.

These kinds of serious consequences have to be employed, if you ever want to get rid of diving in the sport. I strongly believe diving is very damaging to the sport's credibility. The idea of a "soccer dive" has entered the mainstream consciousness and lexicon, and FIFA should be concerned about that.

- Scott

LucaGol
01-25-2009, 06:00 PM
I believe FIFA is going to experiment with 2 extra referees that will stand close to the goal to assist in determining otherwise indeterminable goal decisions and to aid the main referee in offenses in the penalty area.

Someone correct me if Im wrong or bring up the article where it says so?

This would be a much better solution imo.

Shakes McQueen
01-25-2009, 07:00 PM
I believe FIFA is going to experiment with 2 extra referees that will stand close to the goal to assist in determining otherwise indeterminable goal decisions and to aid the main referee in offenses in the penalty area.

Someone correct me if Im wrong or bring up the article where it says so?

This would be a much better solution imo.

That is a good idea, but I still think the punishment must be more serious. If you can get carded for disrespecting the officials, then surely the punishment should be more severe, when you're actually disrespecting the game itself, in such a blatant way.

- Scott

BuSaPuNk
01-25-2009, 07:35 PM
I like the idea. The more they will hand out the punishments for the action the players will think before going down so easily. The only problem I fear is that there are alot of borderline calls on diving. There was contact but he did go down easily and you really can't come to a clear decision if it was a dive or not. Either way they have to work on it. Drives me nutz when guys go down like they were shot and were not even touched all that much. Case in point the Russian goalie from the world junior tourney this year. When down 5 times in the final....what a joke.

MisterMacphisto
01-25-2009, 11:51 PM
I'm all for doing whatever it takes to eliminating feigning fouls.

Pachuco
01-26-2009, 12:17 AM
I'm on the fence with this one. I'll tell you why....

The following scenario would be a terrible thing for soccer:

1. Player A is on a breakaway and gets pulled down from behind
2. Referee gives the penalty shot, Team A wins the world cup.
3. The game is reviewed post match, it's blatantly obvious that the player actually dove and was never touched.
4. Player A gets a yellow card. (but his team still won the world cup)

And the major problem with this scenario is Fifa would actually be admitting how wrong the ref was, people would crucify the guy. I'm not sure it's the smartest thing to come out after every game and call out all the dives the ref missed. At the end of the day, alot of the times these calls are judgement calls, therefore, I think you have to go with the ref's call and take it for what it is.

One scenario though that I see we could really improve on is the Rivaldo scenario. Where a player kicks a ball at him after the play was over and it hits him in the legs. I think we all know what happened next (Rivado crying on the ground like a little baby while holding his face). This to me is deliberately an intent to ruin the game, and deserves a long suspension from the sport.

Shakes McQueen
01-26-2009, 12:49 AM
I'm on the fence with this one. I'll tell you why....

The following scenario would be a terrible thing for soccer:

1. Player A is on a breakaway and gets pulled down from behind
2. Referee gives the penalty shot, Team A wins the world cup.
3. The game is reviewed post match, it's blatantly obvious that the player actually dove and was never touched.
4. Player A gets a yellow card. (but his team still won the world cup)

And the major problem with this scenario is Fifa would actually be admitting how wrong the ref was, people would crucify the guy. I'm not sure it's the smartest thing to come out after every game and call out all the dives the ref missed. At the end of the day, alot of the times these calls are judgement calls, therefore, I think you have to go with the ref's call and take it for what it is.

This is precisely why a yellow card simply isn't enough. If it's the 88th minute of the World Cup, many players are willing to risk a yellow card for flopping, if it'll give them the chance to win. If the potential punishment is far more severe, even if it's after the fact, every player will think twice.

Many other sports have situations in which a ref's call is overruled. THe NFL, NHL, and MLB all have forms of video review. It isn't so much about backing up the referee, as it is understanding that there are limits to what a person can see, and ensuring the game is played out fairly.

I don't think FIFA essentially admitting the ref blew the call will be a big deal. If the ref blows a call for a dive, the proof will be all over TV anyway.

- Scott

Cashcleaner
01-26-2009, 01:46 AM
While I abhor diving and bad sportsmanship, I don't think a card should be handed out during play because if the player is down for legitimate reasons, you really don't want to mistakenly add insult to injury with a card. Video review of possible dives and other incidents makes sense.

I say go with a one game suspension for a dive that is reviewed by the Head Referee and maybe both opposing managers. Over time, I bet you'll see those instances drastically reduced once players start missing games.

werewolf
01-26-2009, 01:50 AM
That is a good idea, but I still think the punishment must be more serious. If you can get carded for disrespecting the officials, then surely the punishment should be more severe, when you're actually disrespecting the game itself, in such a blatant way.

- Scott

Don't mean to go on a tangent.

I think players have too much leeway in disrespecting officials, it seems to take a lot to get a card these days. Throwing your hands up and cursing the ref. doesn't always get a punishment, you really have to make the guy look bad or say a few magic words. Whereas in rugby, players are killing each other every play, testosterone levels are off the charts, but when the ref. has something to say its like 'yes sir'.

Anyways, I agree with doing more to eliminate making a mockery of the game, even if it is retroactive red cards.

Shakes McQueen
01-26-2009, 03:28 AM
While I abhor diving and bad sportsmanship, I don't think a card should be handed out during play because if the player is down for legitimate reasons, you really don't want to mistakenly add insult to injury with a card. Video review of possible dives and other incidents makes sense.

I only support red cards on the pitch, in CLEAR cases of diving - like, the guy wasn't even touched and decided to do a triple sow-cow.

In close cases, video review after the fact is fine.

The point is, STOP letting them get away with it. All it will take is to make an example of a few players, with cards and/or lengthy bans, and you will see blatant diving dry up.

If a player knows he is staring down the barrel of a long stint in the stands next time he goes to flop around on the ground, he won't.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
01-26-2009, 03:30 AM
I think players have too much leeway in disrespecting officials, it seems to take a lot to get a card these days. Throwing your hands up and cursing the ref. doesn't always get a punishment, you really have to make the guy look bad or say a few magic words. Whereas in rugby, players are killing each other every play, testosterone levels are off the charts, but when the ref. has something to say its like 'yes sir'.

Couldn't agree more. The captain should also be the only person to ever dispute anything with the officials - anyone else getting in the ref's face should be an instant card.

A lot of football players act like petulant children when it comes to officiating - Rooney and C. Ronaldo instantly come to mind. Ronaldo's little sarcastic claps, and dirty looks, should not have to be tolerated by any official, ever.

- Scott

Pachuco
01-26-2009, 09:45 AM
This is precisely why a yellow card simply isn't enough. If it's the 88th minute of the World Cup, many players are willing to risk a yellow card for flopping, if it'll give them the chance to win. If the potential punishment is far more severe, even if it's after the fact, every player will think twice.

Many other sports have situations in which a ref's call is overruled. THe NFL, NHL, and MLB all have forms of video review. It isn't so much about backing up the referee, as it is understanding that there are limits to what a person can see, and ensuring the game is played out fairly.

I don't think FIFA essentially admitting the ref blew the call will be a big deal. If the ref blows a call for a dive, the proof will be all over TV anyway.

- Scott

I respectfully disagree with a few of your points.

1. THe NFL, NHL, and MLB all have forms of video review. You are right, they do, but not for judgement calls. You can't review in the NHL the fact a player dove (and yes, there are dives in hockey too). You can't review in the NFL whether there was a penalty on the play or not. In every sport that has video review, the only things you can review are black and white such as did the puck cross the line or was the guy out of bounds. And if you notice, they are plays that do not undermine the refs judgement call. There's a big reason why, because the leagues have to stand behind the refs decisions on the field or no one would ever want to ref anymore.

2. I don't think FIFA essentially admitting the ref blew the call will be a big deal. If the ref blows a call for a dive, the proof will be all over TV anyway. Not true at all. The proof is in the eye of the beholder. If Player A in my scenario plays for Team A then all supporters of Team A will be convinced it wasn't a dive. All supporters of Team B will be convinced he DID dive. The difference is, they have to live with what the ref called on the field. Now if you go and essentially reverse the call post match, you are giving factual proof to Team B that they never loss the World Cup. This is a horrible thing, in some countries, you may actually see riots over this.

I'm ok with video review, so long as you never undermine a refs judgement call on the field.

Mango Kid
01-26-2009, 09:56 AM
If the goal is to get rid of diving, then I absolutely love the idea of video review after the game by whatever body is chosen to review this stuff.

Dropping cards that lead to suspensions of players would definitely have an impact, and coaches would surely push their players to lose that aspect of their game rather than be missing players.

To the point about it happening in a big moment, you can't make this perfect, but it sure beats the status quo.

nfitz
01-26-2009, 10:01 AM
Post-game review of league games seems like a great solution to me!

brad
01-26-2009, 10:33 AM
Yellow cards won't stop it diving. Players intentionally take yellow cards in defensive contexts all the time.

nfitz
01-26-2009, 12:26 PM
The review doesn't have to be a yellow card. It could be a 3-game ban and a fine. Or a 20-game ban and a fine.

Pookie
08-29-2009, 06:53 AM
For those that discussed this topic earlier, I found a very interesting article in the Sun today. The scenario that I highlgihted above is actually playing out.

It involves Eduardo from Arsenal who dove in the box was awarded a penalty. UEFA is now looking at video from the game to determine if Eduardo should receive a 2 game suspension for his actions.

The Dive:
9Az0RTMLB44

The full article:

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/soccer/2009/08/29/10662031-sun.html

MrHawk
08-29-2009, 06:58 AM
I just don't understand how UEFA works out suspensions.............

Totti got a straight red for diving in a WC 2002 match..........

Edit: Forgot to put that it was under FIFA rules not UEFA.

JonO
08-29-2009, 06:59 AM
It involves Eduardo from Arsenal who dove in the box was awarded a penalty. UEFA is now looking at video from the game to determine if Eduardo should receive a 2 game suspension for his actions.
About time. Clearly and indisputably a dive and should be punished...

Shep
08-29-2009, 07:10 AM
Man, that dive had me screaming at my TV, and very nearly turned the game off....

I support any initiative that is aimed at getting the divers out of the game, or at least punishing them severely for it.

Shakes McQueen
08-29-2009, 08:44 AM
I support seriously punishing divers, as I mentioned months ago in this thread. However, I only support it if UEFA/FIFA are actually going to apply a blanket harsh standard across the board.

Punishing Eduardo is fine, as long as they aren't going to be hypocrites about it. Punishing high profile cases, while continually letting everything else slide, isn't fair at all.

- Scott

prizby
08-29-2009, 08:54 AM
if this is the start of punishing ALL DIVERS then do it, and do it severely, you won't get rid of diving without severe repercussions

Bobo
08-29-2009, 09:36 AM
The Referee's Committee would go to war with FIFA. Don't think this one is going to happen. ALL FIFA can do, and what they really should do, is pressure refs to clamp down on the diving they see during the game. Warning if done once, booking if done twice, unless in the box. Announce it to the world so every player knows what to expect.

v00d00daddy
08-29-2009, 09:44 AM
I just don't understand how UEFA works out suspensions.............

Totti got a straight red for diving in a WC 2002 match..........

Edit: Forgot to put that it was under FIFA rules not UEFA.

It was actually a second yellow and for what it's worth, I'm not sure it wad a dive either.

flatpicker
08-29-2009, 09:48 AM
well, I've said plenty on this subject in the other substantial thread on this topic.

but I will repeat myself...

video review during games for fouls is not a good idea.
There would just be too many opportunities to use it and the game would slow down.
I am in favour of reviewing diving after the match (both for handing out suspension or reversing unnecessary suspensions).

I agree with the earlier post in here that it could cause problems (reviewing a bad call after a Cup game).

Perhaps the rule would be that video review is only used during regular season.
Or for any game except Cup Finals.

A big issue I have with video review during games is that refs would need to admit they don't know how to judge a play.
That doesn't make them look very good at all... and you can't exactly go to video review every time a team complains.

Video review for goals is fine by me... I would support that.

But like the NHL, I would not use video review for fouls.

MrHawk
08-29-2009, 09:49 AM
It was actually a second yellow and for what it's worth, I'm not sure it wad a dive either.

My mistake then

SilverSamurai
08-29-2009, 10:15 AM
I say do it.
Diving is for the Olympics not the footy pitch.
What I don't get is how the hell FIFA insists on only having 1 ref, while hockey has 4 min?! They really need to get a 2nd ref to start catching better stuff.

Use video after matches at the very least during every game, no matter what.

I would hope this wouldn't be limited to MLS though.

flatpicker
08-29-2009, 10:50 AM
^ it's already used in England... check the International football forum..

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=16798

Alex_82
08-29-2009, 10:57 AM
This diving has to be punished.....FIFA should do something brazen and hand out a lengthy 10 match ban to a player that is a repeat offender to set some precedence on diving. I would love to see any big name player eat a ban like this to teach everyone that diving is not an honourable way to gain an advantage

Blizzard
08-29-2009, 12:38 PM
About time. Clearly and indisputably a dive and should be punished...

True but unfortunately, in this case he scored on the resultant penalty. Granted, in the overall scoreline it didn't make a huge difference but it might have and if it had, it would have been a tainted victory.

How can UEFA punish the player after the fact (after the penalty) but allow a potentially tainted scoreline to stand???

This is why a video review of the play would have been beneficial. The play is video reviewed by a fourth official upstairs (to remove the possibility of a referee justifying his initial decision .... and also to speed things up) and the call is made. No penalty plus a card to the diving offender!

Presto, no tainted scoreline. To me, that is much more important than the individual punishment because on the scoreline conceivably rests millions of dollars not to mention players/managers/coaches careers (and the enjoyment of millions of supporters) but beyond any of this .... CREDIBILITY!!!

Yes, there is a delay in the match but is a slight interruption of play more important than the correct decisions being made? I don't think so.

The player can still be suspended by the governing body but at least there is no undeserved penalty and no tainted scoreline.

B

MrHawk
08-29-2009, 02:06 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-1209835/Des-Kelly-Its-OK-cheat-us.html

Blizzard
08-29-2009, 07:26 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-1209835/Des-Kelly-Its-OK-cheat-us.html

Terrific article. I'm sure much the same can be said of Canadians in regards to hockey although it must be said that the NHL diving initiative seems to have had some success but we've seen too many bogus diving calls too. Perhaps that's why they've been shying away from making the call.

Carts
08-31-2009, 10:19 AM
I know I am in the huge minority, but I HATE VIDEO REVIEW in basically every area - especially football...

I understand its use in North American Football, as the game is "stopped" more than its actually being played. I understand its use in hockey, as that sport too...

But I would HATE to see it come to footy...

Yes, I realize that it means a human being making the wrong call at times - but I am fine with that...

I have always beleived in sports there are 3 teams on the field. Home Team, Visiting Team, Officials Team...

None of those three are perfect, they're humans, they make mistakes, great plays & bad plays, perfect calls and missed calls....

Carts...

Ladies Love Julius James
08-31-2009, 10:23 AM
I know I am in the huge minority, but I HATE VIDEO REVIEW in basically every area - especially football...


Carts...


I agree 100%. Take it out.

maninb
08-31-2009, 01:07 PM
Does MLS penalize refs for blowing calling like the FA in England do?