MLSE has purchased GOLTV. [Archive] - Red Patch Boys Forums

SQUIRREL

01-23-2009, 08:35 AM

http://www.metronews.ca/toronto/sports/article/171039

I don't know how credible the metronews is but there you have it. I know that there was some threads about this but people were saying it wasn't going to happen. If this article is true (which again I don't know how credible the metronews is) MLSE has purchased GOLTV.

FluSH

01-23-2009, 08:36 AM

First!

edit: hmmmm not sure how I feel about this... I mean there were rumours that it was coming... as long MLSE puts in more $$$ into TFC I guess I'm all good for it.

Fort York Redcoat

01-23-2009, 08:42 AM

I'm waiting for what they plan to do with it. It could mean all/more MLSE teams than just soccer. It could mean paying more to watch TFC on TV.

Stouffville_RPB

01-23-2009, 08:42 AM

We all know MLSE's ultimate goal... to take over the world. This is mearly another step in achieving that GOL.

SQUIRREL

01-23-2009, 08:48 AM

I don't mind it as long as keep the European and South American games and add TFC games on HD. I'll even pay a bit more for GOLTV if they move there programing to HD

Pigfynn

01-23-2009, 08:57 AM

I already have this channel, so I better not have to pay any more than I already do.

I ofcourse will have nothing bad to say if they by chance start by showing pre season training and pre season games on Gol.

Probably means a lot more coverage from interviews, behind the scenes, games etc. That's a good thing for $2 a month.

brad

01-23-2009, 09:16 AM

First!

edit: hmmmm not sure how I feel about this... I mean there were rumours that it was coming... as long MLSE puts in more $$$ into TFC I guess I'm all good for it.

I think Pigfynn hit the nail on the head. As long as this means increased media exposure to TFC, that in itself should be huge benefit to the club.

It's hard to imagine them not using a dedicated soccer channel to promote their own team.
(http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/member.php?u=238)

Ossington Mental Youth

01-23-2009, 09:22 AM

keep bundesliga, la liga and all those other leagues, add TFC even MLS games and ill be pleased, hell id pay 5$ a month for it

brad

01-23-2009, 09:25 AM

keep bundesliga, la liga and all those other leagues, add TFC even MLS games and ill be pleased, hell id pay 5$ a month for it

I'd love to see them cover the away games with decent commentary.

Technorgasm

01-23-2009, 09:40 AM

MLSE Has purchase a footy broadcaster. . . what product of their do you think they will use this station to promote HMMMMMMM ??

Not only do we have the best Health and fitness infrastructure for our players in the league.
the best fans in the league
But now our owners have their OWN Station to broadcast their footy product on.

CAN YOU SAY ATLANTA BRAVES OF THE NORTH ?

Ted Turner. . eat your heart out.

GREAT NEWS!! WALK ON!

Ossington Mental Youth

01-23-2009, 09:47 AM

i like to think our support is alot better then the braves, HA

SQUIRREL

01-23-2009, 09:56 AM

Pachuco

01-23-2009, 10:01 AM

I think this is great news. A big step forward towards having a channel that can promote TFC. Nigel, get a job at Gol TV NOW!!!

Pachuco

01-23-2009, 10:01 AM

No offence to anybody who doesn't have HDTV, but I want to see more games in HD. and I would love to see CONCACAF CL qualifying away games (last year I had to stream it because I didn't have CBC BOLD) Charleston Tournament, maybe even some practices.......Oh I hope this is true

Completely agree on the HD thing. Although MLSE I think understands that. Both the Raptors and Leafs have HD channels.

Gobi

01-23-2009, 10:05 AM

Ossington Mental Youth

01-23-2009, 10:08 AM

I'd like to restate my position on CBC's TFC broadcast rights being absolutely crucial to our team's success.
Without nation-wide coverage on a free channel, we're screwed.

Of course, additional exposure on Gol is great too.

Agreed
my only issue is that TFC will never take a priority as show jumping or whatever will always draw more viewers.
As a result do you get the specialty channel and hope people subscribe through exposure elsewhere or do you allow for CBC to show the game nationwide to have certain games shown at 1am

Ossington Mental Youth

01-23-2009, 10:09 AM

I dont even know the answer to be honest, i guess id say CBC but i wouldnt be mad at a TFC channel provided it followed everything i mentioned above

SQUIRREL

01-23-2009, 10:13 AM

brad

01-23-2009, 10:19 AM

^^BINGO, I don't have a problem with CBC, I want to see TFC on as many channels as possible, but in saying that TFC won't have priority over other programs like that they can play it on GOLTV. For example pre season, they will never play it on CBC

There is an assumption being made here that TFC would actually take priority on GOL TV. It may not, depends on what the target is.

If the whole point is to use it as a media arm to promote TFC, then yes, I think it will.

However, if the point is to make money off it as cross Canada station - what do you think will get priority - a TFC match, or a Barca or Real Madrid match?

David_Oliveira

01-23-2009, 10:21 AM

I'd like to restate my position on CBC's TFC broadcast rights being absolutely crucial to our team's success.
Without nation-wide coverage on a free channel, we're screwed.

Of course, additional exposure on Gol is great too.

Good move on MLSE's standpoint. This puts pressure on CBC to step up, shape up and give priority for TFC games or else they'll just brodcast them on GOLTFC or TFC TV

Roogsy

01-23-2009, 10:24 AM

This is nice...but I don't see it as a serious bonus for TFC other than to broadcast games not available on CBC. GolTV has too small an audience to really consider it an option for TFC on a national basis.

I think this was more a business decision than it was a TFC-related decision. The owners of GolTV have been struggling with getting this channel off the ground and I think MLSE saw an opportunity to buy a property cheap that they can then develop with their massive resources.

Pachuco

01-23-2009, 10:42 AM

I'd like to restate my position on CBC's TFC broadcast rights being absolutely crucial to our team's success.
Without nation-wide coverage on a free channel, we're screwed.

Of course, additional exposure on Gol is great too.

I would agree, except CBC doesn't cover TFC nationwide either. CBC Bold is by no means nationwide and it's as much a specialty channel as GolTV is. I would be surprised if CBC Bold has more buyers then Goal TV does already. This will never change guys, TFC will always be playing games in he middle of hockey playoffs. If CBC wants to put it on their main network then fine, but how many times did that happen last year?

deltox

01-23-2009, 10:45 AM

with CBC, the score, sportsnet and gol tv, we should have all games being shown.

and none of them, should be tape delayed.

saying that every game is on TV and then CBC delaying the game until after midnight is not acceptable.

Roogsy

01-23-2009, 10:51 AM

I would agree, except CBC doesn't cover TFC nationwide either. CBC Bold is by no means nationwide and it's as much a specialty channel as GolTV is. I would be surprised if CBC Bold has more buyers then Goal TV does already. This will never change guys, TFC will always be playing games in he middle of hockey playoffs. If CBC wants to put it on their main network then fine, but how many times did that happen last year?

The Bold thing has to stop.

End of.

I support CBC as much as any TFC should...but if they keep showing games on that stinking channel, I will support any move TFC makes to move the games to Sportsnet or even GolTV.

denime

01-23-2009, 10:56 AM

reggie

01-23-2009, 11:08 AM

good news and good news....hopefully games on cbc and goal tv...and a daily show or weekly show like they did in the past (the BLIZZARD HOUR) with dale barnes on cfmt.
i hope they try to get nigel out of that dump the fan590...

SQUIRREL

01-23-2009, 11:11 AM

I like the CBC but I'm not sold on the arguement (not against it, just not sold on it) that by having nation-wide coverage will help TFC or soccer in Canada. If I lived in Vancouver and had no ties to Toronto I wouldn't care if it was on TV. If you want soccer to be bigger in Canada you will need Vancouver and Montreal to join MLS or at least get more exposure then they are getting. People from the west to the east hate Toronto, they think we are the centre of the universe and if you put a TFC match on they will just turn the channel.

deeznutz

01-23-2009, 11:13 AM

I would like to see the price tag now of this move....If it goes up one penny I am cutting that station fast times!

James17930

01-23-2009, 11:14 AM

maybe have as many games live on CBC as possible, then show replays on Gol. Plus all extra stuff.

Hey -- what about RPB: TV?

Enh? Enh?

SQUIRREL

01-23-2009, 11:16 AM

on that note I want as many TFC matches televised I don't care what channel. Like I said before I would love to see pre season games and games in HD. CBC won't do either. If the CBC can do that I will be a loyal viewer. I'm not against the CBC, just the content and quality of the game.

Joe Kool

01-23-2009, 11:37 AM

So if MLSE owns the station and they are the only ones playing the TFC games does that mean they are going to force us to watch a Marlie game for every TFC game they broadcast?

rocker

01-23-2009, 11:38 AM

So if MLSE owns the station and they are the only ones playing the TFC games does that mean they are going to force us to watch a Marlie game for every TFC game they broadcast?

sure beats Poker! hahah.

Thankfully I have 800 other channels if they show poker or Marlies ;)

Sonny Cheeba

01-23-2009, 11:40 AM

i like to think our support is alot better then the braves, HA

except when we yell "who are ya?!" if we were muted, we'd look like braves fans doing that "OOOOOOOOHHooooooooOOOOOooooooOOOHHOOOoooo"

Sonny Cheeba

01-23-2009, 11:44 AM

mighty_torontofc_2008

01-23-2009, 11:53 AM

this is great news now maybe TFC can tell cbc to stick their telecasts up their arse..

kingjerk

01-23-2009, 12:01 PM

I think in general CBC was great for the club in the first two seasons. They really went out on a limb for an unknown market. Any game that is CBC can show live they should do there best to get. But if a game is going to be tape delayed for show jumping or "Being Erica", I'd rather it be on GOL than CBC Bold. I'm not going to subscribe to Bold to get 2 games a year and never watch it again. GOL on the other hand has content outside the TFC games that I actually watch.

rocker

01-23-2009, 12:20 PM

I think in general CBC was great for the club in the first two seasons. They really went out on a limb for an unknown market..

this is the great thing about publicly funded TV. minority groups (TFC/soccer fans) are served since the CBC isn't a total slave to the market. they can subsidize it a bit more even if the market isn't that big.

nfitz

01-23-2009, 12:22 PM

Rogers sells CBC Bold for about $2.79 a month (or less if you have more than one a la Carte channel ... I have CBC Bold, GOL-TV and Fox Sports Canada for $8.07 a month). Not exactly expensive ...

Also CBC has applied for an HD version of CBC Bold (http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2008/db2008-260.htm). As CBC Newsworld went HD a few weeks ago, I'd hope we see CBC Bold in HD soon as well (probably for more money, sigh) - so perhaps we'll see the Champion's League games in widescreen at least (I don't think any of the one's CBC has done have been HD - but I think all have been widescreen).

brad

01-23-2009, 12:37 PM

mighty_torontofc_2008

01-23-2009, 12:38 PM

No offence to anybody who doesn't have HDTV, but I want to see more games in HD. and I would love to see CONCACAF CL qualifying away games (last year I had to stream it because I didn't have CBC BOLD) Charleston Tournament, maybe even some practices.......Oh I hope this is true

to hell with HD...no offence to those at have it....picture is not much better the regular tv.

brad

01-23-2009, 12:40 PM

yeah but there are RPB chapters out west. so there must be more people out there interested in watching TFC than just the RPBs

AND, soccer is HUGE in BC.

Again, speaking from personal experience - it's not like no one cares. I have friends on the prairies that follow TFC - but most people don't care. The numbers are certainly nowhere near enough to make a big impact - most people that follow the sport will turn on an EPL game long before an MLS game.

There are also strong anti-Toronto sentiments prevalent across the West.

AL-MO

01-23-2009, 12:41 PM

this is great news now maybe TFC can tell cbc to stick their telecasts up their arse..

Because that would be a great idea. Put games on a pay channel that few people actually have! :rolleyes:

FOGES

01-23-2009, 12:48 PM

as long as they keep La Liga and boost TFC coverage...i'm good with it

nfitz

01-23-2009, 12:50 PM

to hell with HD...no offence to those at have it....picture is not much better the regular tv.
:jaw:

For watching Soccer? It's beautiful - can you really say you can not tell the huge difference between the Sunday morning Premiership games on The Score HD compared to the SD ones that Sportsnet HD airs on Saturdays?

And for hockey, it's amazing (though I don't watch much).

Pigfynn

01-23-2009, 12:52 PM

to hell with HD...no offence to those at have it....picture is not much better the regular tv.

Holy shit is that not true.

Funniest thing I've read all day.

OneLoveOneEric

01-23-2009, 01:00 PM

The English government is currently pushing all major sports leagues to dedicate themselves to free broadcasting Also, they want to see them devote 5% of their money to supporting grass-roots broadcasting of events.
Imagine seeing that here.

nfitz

01-23-2009, 01:09 PM

The English government is currently pushing all major sports leagues to dedicate themselves to free broadcasting... CBC Bold at about $32 a year is a lot cheaper than "free" BBC One, which you have to pay £139.50 a year, even if you have rabbit ears.

mighty_torontofc_2008

01-23-2009, 01:12 PM

Because that would be a great idea. Put games on a pay channel that few people actually have! :rolleyes:

they can go out and get it...its not difficult...if you really care for the team you would.

mighty_torontofc_2008

01-23-2009, 01:14 PM

Holy shit is that not true.

Funniest thing I've read all day.

sorry looked at HD tvs yesterday...and beside were regular tvs...really there is not enough difference in quality as to pay the hundred dollars more.

parrott114

01-23-2009, 01:17 PM

dont know if this link has already been posted, but it has more news on the golTV thing

http://toronto.fc.mlsnet.com/news/team_news.jsp?ymd=20090123&content_id=213548&vkey=news_t280&fext=.jsp&team=t280

shaggingscot

01-23-2009, 01:18 PM

sorry looked at HD tvs yesterday...and beside were regular tvs...really there is not enough difference in quality as to pay the hundred dollars more.

Time to get your eyes checked then.

Pachuco

01-23-2009, 01:18 PM

to hell with HD...no offence to those at have it....picture is not much better the regular tv.

HAHA, what a joke. You obviously don't have an HDTV. I have 3. Trust me. The picture is MUCH better. Even a 3 year old could tell you that. Oh, and have you ever tried to watch regular cable on an HDTV? yeah, in case you didn't know, the picture is pretty shit (on HDTVs with less then 120hz), even compared to a tube tv.

nfitz

01-23-2009, 01:22 PM

sorry looked at HD tvs yesterday...and beside were regular tvs...really there is not enough difference in quality as to pay the hundred dollars more.Then you weren't looking at HD picture compared to SD pictures - what, where you in Future Shop or something? Which channel were you looking at?

And if the price difference has dropped to $100 (haven't bought an HD TV since 5 years now ...) ... doesn't it bother you that your screen is a different shape than most of the programming these days - so you either miss the sides of the picture, or have the whole thing letterboxed.

flatpicker

01-23-2009, 01:23 PM

I'm siding with the HD lovers.
Watching sports on an HDTV (broadcast in HD) is a dream!
HD was made for sport!

mighty_torontofc_2008

01-23-2009, 01:26 PM

Heres will gol will help i hope:

1) Broadcasting the Carolina Challenge Cup tournament
2) Coverage of the Academy teams, with one going to the popular
Dallas Cup tournament, it would be nice to see how they make out.
3) Getting more MLS league games,superliga,CCL friendlies covered.
4) getting TFC tv actually on TV will be good.
5) repeats of matches, so if you have to miss one for work,family issues
you can re watch the game.

nfitz

01-23-2009, 01:27 PM

Heres will gol will help i hope:

...

5) repeats of matches, so if you have to miss one for work,family issues
you can re watch the game.Well, that's the one we know they can do. I'm not sure how many dozen times they repeated the Toronto-Vancouver match ...

Hopefully we'll see some of the other MLS matches - seems bizarre to me that we can get all sorts of foreign matches - but no non-Toronto MLS matches (except for the weekly game on HDNET Canada).

mighty_torontofc_2008

01-23-2009, 01:29 PM

HAHA, what a joke. You obviously don't have an HDTV. I have 3. Trust me. The picture is MUCH better. Even a 3 year old could tell you that. Oh, and have you ever tried to watch regular cable on an HDTV? yeah, in case you didn't know, the picture is pretty shit (on HDTVs with less then 120hz), even compared to a tube tv.

no have regular tv....wouldnt waste the money on HD as i stated earlier.
tube tvs are more reliable and last longer.

mighty_torontofc_2008

01-23-2009, 01:31 PM

Well, that's the one we know they can do. I'm not sure how many dozen times they repeated the Toronto-Vancouver match ...

Hopefully we'll see some of the other MLS matches - seems bizarre to me that we can get all sorts of foreign matches - but no non-Toronto MLS matches (except for the weekly game on HDNET Canada).

I would love to watch say the Galaxy play the Fire, or any other MLS game...ifs is on the same time as a tfc game then Gol can tape delaye it and show after the TFC one.

Parkdale

01-23-2009, 01:33 PM

to hell with HD...no offence to those at have it....picture is not much better the regular tv.

have you ever actually seen a real HD broadcast?

I only ask, because no one who's ever actually seen an HD broadcast would make a statement like that.

AL-MO

01-23-2009, 01:34 PM

they can go out and get it...its not difficult...if you really care for the team you would.

Riiiight.

So to be a true fan of this team I have to spend more money on buying a pay channel to see them. (Because I don't spend enough time and money on this club/team already)

I am also quite confident this extra money I spend will go directly to the product/team on the field and not to MLSE's pockets. :rolleyes:

How about they put all games where the MOST fans can see them? And not force them to pony up more money. The current setup is fine. In fact I'd prefer MORE games to be on CBC.

shaggingscot

01-23-2009, 01:35 PM

no have regular tv....wouldnt waste the money on HD as i stated earlier.
tube tvs are more reliable and last longer.

There's no debating that regular tvs last longer but the picture quality between the two is vastly different when watching an HD broadcast.

I hate watching regular tv now, HD has spoiled me.

AL-MO

01-23-2009, 01:36 PM

Parkdale

01-23-2009, 01:36 PM

tube tvs are more reliable and last longer.

what's your source on that? Most HD TV's out there are less than 5 years old, so you really can't do a side-by-side comparison when the technology isn't old enough.

AL-MO

01-23-2009, 01:37 PM

no have regular tv....wouldnt waste the money on HD as i stated earlier.
tube tvs are more reliable and last longer.

So do you still use a rotary phone too?

Parkdale

01-23-2009, 01:38 PM

So do you still use a rotary phone too?

but he HATES the radio. explain that?

Razcle

01-23-2009, 01:43 PM

has this been confirmed anywhere?

nfitz

01-23-2009, 01:48 PM

tube tvs are more reliable and last longer.... and cheaper too ... which is why I got a tube HD TV. But I dare say it's difficult to find either SD or HD these days.

Parkdale

01-23-2009, 01:49 PM

http://www.techarp.com/x264_Benchmark/sd/gfx/res_chart.gif

^ I have every number on this chart memorized, because I use it all damn day.

PS (and to keep this slightly on topic) Is GOL TV currently in HD or not? Maybe the MLSE purchase will bring it up into 2005 quality standards

brad

01-23-2009, 01:51 PM

has this been confirmed anywhere?

The acquisition of GOL TV, or the superiority of tube over LCD:hump:

Assuming you mean GOL TV, yes - it's confirmed - just came in via email from TFC.

Fort York Redcoat

01-23-2009, 01:52 PM

Somebody in TV confirm this but I heard that CBC is going cable this spring (April?) so no tv would be free. Which would mean we all get less taxes right?

brad

01-23-2009, 01:52 PM

PS (and to keep this slightly on topic) Is GOL TV currently in HD or not? Maybe the MLSE purchase will bring it up into 2005 quality standards

No.

It's also a question of the feeds they pick up. Is La Liga even available on HD?

nfitz

01-23-2009, 01:53 PM

Is GOL TV currently in HD or not?No - nor has any application been made to CRTC to go HD. On the bright side - on Rogers at least, the picture quality is decent - far better than Fox Sportsworld's blur-O-vision.

Fort York Redcoat

01-23-2009, 01:53 PM

How can I protect myself from STDTV?

brad

01-23-2009, 01:54 PM

How can I protect myself from STDTV?

Abstaining from watching it is the only guarantee.:)

Parkdale

01-23-2009, 01:55 PM

No.

It's also a question of the feeds they pick up. Is La Liga even available on HD?

I'm 100% sure it is (in Spain)

Parkdale

01-23-2009, 01:55 PM

How can I protect myself from STDTV?

leave it unplugged.

Pigfynn

01-23-2009, 01:57 PM

Most European leagues are, atleast at the source broadcast in HD. They were miles ahead of us with this along with widescreen TV

nfitz

01-23-2009, 02:02 PM

Somebody in TV confirm this but I heard that CBC is going cable this spring (April?) so no tv would be free. ???? I don't know where you heard this, but nothing could be further from the truth. CBC has been adding HD transmitters in addition to it's SD transmitters - so you'll still be able to pick up CBC with rabbit ears for years and years to come.

DOMIN8R

01-23-2009, 02:12 PM

Yesterday we introduced four-time MLS Cup winner Dwayne De Rosario, and now we’re pleased to tell you there’s another new family member!
Our parent company Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment has acquired 24/7 soccer channel GolTV (Canada).
“GolTV is a great acquisition for our organization,” said Tom Anselmi, executive vice-president and chief operating officer of Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment. http://a1253.g.akamai.net/f/1253/1122/1d/graphics.sdm3.com/MapleLeaf//uploads//TorontoFC/De%20Ro%20small.JPG “We’re looking to take GolTV programming to the next level, which will benefit soccer, and support the development of the game at both the professional and grassroots levels.”
GolTV’s current soccer programming ranges from live league action from Europe and South America to behind the scenes access to some of soccer’s biggest superstars in the world. GolTV Canada will also have exclusive coverage of qualifying Italian, Spanish and South American matches leading up to the 2010 World Cup.
To read the full press release click here. (http://mlsefans.com/index.cfm?n35167s2454c1480194t2458o25495)
If you didn't get to catch our online stream of Dwayne De Rosario's introduction yesterday, make sure you check out Toronto FC TV today. You can watch the press conference (http://mlsefans.com/index.cfm?n35167s2454c1480194t2458o25492) and interviews with John Carver (http://mlsefans.com/index.cfm?n35167s2454c1480194t2458o25493) and Mo Johnston. (http://mlsefans.com/index.cfm?n35167s2454c1480194t2458o25494) We'll also be bringing you exclusive video of De Ro's meet and greet with the supporters.
Have a great weekend,
Toronto FC
// All For One

Pachuco

01-23-2009, 02:20 PM

Riiiight.

So to be a true fan of this team I have to spend more money on buying a pay channel to see them. (Because I don't spend enough time and money on this club/team already)

I am also quite confident this extra money I spend will go directly to the product/team on the field and not to MLSE's pockets. :rolleyes:

How about they put all games where the MOST fans can see them? And not force them to pony up more money. The current setup is fine. In fact I'd prefer MORE games to be on CBC.

I don't get it, so were you the only one who magically got to see TFC on CBC's main network during the hockey playoffs, or during show jumping, or hamburger eating contests? I don't know about you, but I had to pay to watch the games last year. The difference is, I payed for the crappiest network alive (CBC Bold) as opposed to paying for a network where I will more then likely enjoy 70% of their content.

devioustrevor

01-23-2009, 02:27 PM

Something else that would be nice is MLSE using GolTV to show the Academy games (and CSL games in General) and even NT games (since Sportsnet doesn't really seem that interested). CONCACAF Champions League would be great, plus they could probably pick up the Asian and African Champions League's without too great a cost.

Parkdale

01-23-2009, 02:36 PM

I payed for the crappiest network alive (CBC Bold) as opposed to paying for a network where I will more then likely enjoy 70% of their content.

good point.

other than the 'Footballer's Lives' show, almost everything on that channel is interesting to me.

Pookie

01-23-2009, 02:36 PM

When Leafs TV first came out, I swore I'd never pay to watch something I used to watch for free. When I actually calculated that it was $2 and I'd get to see pre and post game coverage, "Game in an Hour" or Classic Games, as well as additional hockey (bad word around here but Marlies, ECHL, etc)... it was an easy decision.

I would hope that they would include post game press conferences and rebroadcasts of games. Pre game coverage would be a bonus for the away games and of course the panel discussions on player movement would be nice to see.

Highlights and replaying full matches would be a bonus too. There are many times when I've come home from a match and searched for highlights of a specific play but to no avail.

We have Setanta and love the coverage. I avoided GOLTV as a lad with roots in both England and Scotland, I don't really associate with the teams in the leagues that it covers.

I can't understand why it is not broadcast in HD and would hope that both Setanta and GOLTV make that option available soon.

Hitcho

01-23-2009, 03:02 PM

it costs an awful lot more to broadcast in HD. You have to get equipment in place right through the set up, from cameras at the ground to transmitters. This is why HD programming of sporting events isn;t yet universal, it;s not as simple as just replacing the tv you watch it on (sorry, not meant to be patronising because I don't understand all the details myself, just making the point!). I am firmly in the "hope all TFC games go HD on whatever channel they are shown on" camp though. I'd get GOL TV for HD TFC away games for sure.

mighty_torontofc_2008

01-23-2009, 03:02 PM

what's your source on that? Most HD TV's out there are less than 5 years old, so you really can't do a side-by-side comparison when the technology isn't old enough.

Plasma or LCD tvs which support HD have a lifespan of about 10 years,
where a regular tv without HD can go 20 easy.

AL-MO

01-23-2009, 03:05 PM

I don't get it, so were you the only one who magically got to see TFC on CBC's main network during the hockey playoffs, or during show jumping, or hamburger eating contests? I don't know about you, but I had to pay to watch the games last year. The difference is, I payed for the crappiest network alive (CBC Bold) as opposed to paying for a network where I will more then likely enjoy 70% of their content.

You make a very good point Pachuco.

mighty_torontofc_2008

01-23-2009, 03:05 PM

So do you still use a rotary phone too?

YES......no reason to change

Hitcho

01-23-2009, 03:05 PM

I'm siding with the HD lovers.
Watching sports on an HDTV (broadcast in HD) is a dream!
HD was made for sport!

QFT Flat Picker Man. You speak wisdom again.

In fact, I might even be persuaded to watch MLS games with forward-throwing americanised girly rugby lines on the pitch in HD...

Hitcho

01-23-2009, 03:07 PM

Plasma or LCD tvs which support HD have a lifespan of about 10 years,
where a regular tv without HD can go 20 easy.

Well you're gonna have to join the revolution sooner or later whether you want to or not. By the time your cathode ray tube finally implodes they won't be making any tvs that are not flat screen. You might even be able to call and order yourself an HDTV without getting up if you've got yourself a phone that isn;t tied to the wall by that time!!! :D

Sonny Cheeba

01-23-2009, 03:08 PM

i don't have gol tv and i don't plan on getting it any time soon. i'll just have to watch internet streams.

mighty_torontofc_2008

01-23-2009, 03:14 PM

maybe have as many games live on CBC as possible, then show replays on Gol. Plus all extra stuff.

Hey -- what about RPB: TV?

Enh? Enh?

just reverse that....have all the games live on Gol and show delayed coverage on CBC...that way cbc doesn't have to change what they have been doing.

shwade

01-23-2009, 03:27 PM

just reverse that....have all the games live on Gol and show delayed coverage on CBC...that way cbc doesn't have to change what they have been doing.

And have even less people watch TFC games?

loconet

01-23-2009, 03:29 PM

As long as they keep showing La Liga games, I'm happy. Now, if they throw in TFC matches and change their programming to HD. I'd be jumping on my bed like a school girl.

deltox

01-23-2009, 03:34 PM

you got school girls jumping on your bed?

NIIICCCEEE

mighty_torontofc_2008

01-23-2009, 03:36 PM

And have even less people watch TFC games?

it would be any worse then cbc.....cbc has got to go along with the score, and sportsnet....make all TFC games on Gol, get Canadian National team games on their as well.

Oldtimer

01-23-2009, 03:44 PM

This purchase makes incredible sense for MLSE.

(1) They get an up-and-coming property that pouring some money and marketing know-how can turn into something big.

(2) They can share resources with Leafs TV and Raptors TV, lowering costs (may be enough on it's own to make it profitable).

(3) They get a chance to promote TFC to their prime market: the soccer fan who watches overseas leagues, who may be able to be turned into a TFC fan (as opposed to general sports fans, who may not understand soccer).

Chevy

01-23-2009, 03:45 PM

to hell with HD...no offence to those at have it....picture is not much better the regular tv.

Enough of this nonsense. I'm going to pop in my Sonny & Cher 8-track tape and ignore all of you! Let the sweet music play!

http://www.raw-tcsd.com/SonnyCher.HipP.jpg

Parkdale

01-23-2009, 03:48 PM

(2) They can share resources with Leafs TV and Raptors TV, lowering costs (may be enough on it's own to make it profitable).

that's it exactly.

if they run three networks out of one studio, it's more profitable than two on their own (accounting for revenue form the third station). Their upfront hardware costs are minimal.

flatpicker

01-23-2009, 03:50 PM

Another area where this would be good is advertising.
If they pumped a bunch of Toronto FC ads during halftime and in between the more popular Euro and SA games, it could lead to more awareness for the local product. They would act like the gateway drug that leads to TFC! It could prove useful in attracting more of those true footie fans who haven't embraced Toronto yet.

Hitcho

01-23-2009, 03:57 PM

It could prove useful in attracting more of those true footie fans who haven't embraced Toronto yet.

Surely no such person exists!!! (At least nto within the GTA) :D:D:D

deltox

01-23-2009, 04:00 PM

also, think about when the seasons work.

for the viewer who watched overseas footy, everyone is in the offseason at the same time. now they can watch TFC during their "offseason"

MisterMacphisto

01-23-2009, 04:02 PM

Just please give me some HD footy content.

CretanBull

01-23-2009, 04:06 PM

The Premiership puts out it's 11am (our time) feed in HD and it is incredible. The Score usually gets that game on Sunday and there have been times when the picture quality is breath taking. CBC Hockey Night in Canada HD feed is also awesome. Most live broadcasts that I'vel seen are unreal.

For regular programing though - like watching Law & Order or whatever - I don't often bother flipping over to HD. The quality is still better, but I'm not exactly watching 'Jeopardy' for the picture quality.

Ladies Love Julius James

01-23-2009, 04:08 PM

i don't have gol tv and i don't plan on getting it any time soon. i'll just have to watch internet streams.

seconded.

Marc"2L"

01-23-2009, 05:14 PM

Yeah I'll pucker up a few more bones for HD TFC.
I'm paying 15 a month for Setanta, might as well.

Mark in Ottawa

01-23-2009, 05:17 PM

Hey! I have GOL TV as part of my current cable package for $2. a month.
They aren't going to raise the price are they :eek:

MUFC_Niagara

01-23-2009, 05:36 PM

keep bundesliga, la liga and all those other leagues, add TFC even MLS games and ill be pleased, hell id pay 5$ a month for it

Yup, me too

Plenty of Trout

01-23-2009, 05:40 PM

Hey! I have GOL TV as part of my current cable package for $2. a month.
They aren't going to raise the price are they :eek:

It's only $2.00/mth through Rogers?

I have the whole sports package and can't believe Rogers can't add this channel in for free.

Nickel and dime me.

Nickle and dime me.

Cashcleaner

01-23-2009, 06:47 PM

I'd like to restate my position on CBC's TFC broadcast rights being absolutely crucial to our team's success.
Without nation-wide coverage on a free channel, we're screwed.

Of course, additional exposure on Gol is great too.

Agreed 100% Which is why I'm a bit uneasy about this development. If the club's goal is to give more broadcasting rights to GOLTV and take games away from the CBC, Score, or Sportsnet; MLSE will be shooting itself in the foot.

flatpicker

01-23-2009, 06:50 PM

Agreed 100% Which is why I'm a bit uneasy about this development. If the club's goal is to give more broadcasting rights to GOLTV and take games away from the CBC, Score, or Sportsnet; MLSE will be shooting itself in the foot.

MLSE didn't become what it is by making bad business decisions.
I have no doubt that all avenues are looked at and they pursue whatever makes the most economic sense.
Obviously, the more people that follow TFC, the more money MLSE makes.

Steve

01-23-2009, 07:01 PM

to hell with HD...no offence to those at have it....picture is not much better the regular tv.

hahahaha, you're doing it wrong.

Redcoe15

01-23-2009, 08:27 PM

Let's keep in mind the author of that article, Marty York. The guy's a mountain of misinformation as witness by his reporting of Carlos Delgado's free agency destinations of the winter of 2005. He fucked that up badly and before you knew it lost his job at Sportsnet. Never liked him anyways.

And I couldn't help but come across Scott Taylor's name in that article. He's now the sports editor of a weekly aboriginal newspaper in Manitoba called the Grass Roots News. He was once one of Canada's most influential sports media personalities as a columnist for the Winnipeg Free Press, until he got caught plagerizing a story. How the mighty have fallen.

loconet

01-23-2009, 08:31 PM

Let's keep in mind the author of that article, Marty York. .......

There are a whole bunch of other news sources already carrying the story though.. http://www.financialpost.com/scripts/story.html?id=1211501

Redcoe15

01-23-2009, 08:59 PM

There are a whole bunch of other news sources already carrying the story though.. http://www.financialpost.com/scripts/story.html?id=1211501
Well it doesn't change the fact that Marty York's a douchebag.

Toronto_Bhoy

01-23-2009, 10:31 PM

Perhaps the TV numbers are such that the CBC can longer afford to carry TFC games live on the Mother network.

TFC has its core but, aside from the diehards, the numbers suggest the team is little more than a local curiosity. Only 63,000 television viewers tuned in to watch TFC's season opener in 2008. The next day, 1.2 million Canadians plunked themselves in front of their TV sets to take in some women's curling.TFC has its core but, aside from the diehards, the numbers suggest the team is little more than a local curiosity. Only 63,000 television viewers tuned in to watch TFC's season opener in 2008.

http://www.nationalpost.com/sports/story.html?id=1208206

As much as agree with Gobi and Cash, reality suggests, nobody other than us gives a shit.

egoodwin

01-23-2009, 10:41 PM

not sure if this has been mentioned or anything, but does the money from this purchase count as some of the cash from the Edu transfer?

Sonny Cheeba

01-23-2009, 11:04 PM

please stop saying you'll pay more.... not that i'm going to buy it, but they might think it's a great idea if the supporters support a price hike.

i don't have digital cable or a HD ready tv, so bananas to you guys.

TFC07

01-23-2009, 11:44 PM

Perhaps the TV numbers are such that the CBC can longer afford to carry TFC games live on the Mother network.

As much as agree with Gobi and Cash, reality suggests, nobody other than us gives a shit.

That rating is based on one game. Also keep in mind that CBC is trying to attract urban and ethnic communities. Having soccer on their channel is one of the ways to attract them. Since CBC is public funded, I don't think ratings matter to them that much compare to other networks.

For the record, CBC didn't re-new their contract with Blue Jays even though Blue Jays' average ratings was about 300,000 per game.

TFC07

01-23-2009, 11:46 PM

It's only $2.00/mth through Rogers?

I have the whole sports package and can't believe Rogers can't add this channel in for free.

Nickel and dime me.

Nickle and dime me.

GolTV Canada is part of sports package or at least it is for me.

Plenty of Trout

01-24-2009, 09:27 AM

GolTV Canada is part of sports package or at least it is for me.

NOT mine through Rogers just north of Toronto.

nfitz

01-24-2009, 11:06 AM

NOT mine through Rogers just north of Toronto.Rogers website says it's part of the $9.99 a month sports package: http://www.rogers.com/web/content/personal-programming/sports

Perhaps you have an old grandfathered package? When I've subscribed stand-alone to GOLTV ($2.79 a month ... or less if you have more stand-alone channels) they've tried to sell me the package.

mednus

01-24-2009, 11:09 AM

No - nor has any application been made to CRTC to go HD. On the bright side - on Rogers at least, the picture quality is decent - far better than Fox Sportsworld's blur-O-vision.

Sorry, your info is incorrect!
GolTV Canada is at this time broadcast in SD but was granted approval in June 2006 to start a HD channel.
http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2006/db2006-239.htm

On another note GolTV is an amazing property I hope as it is a national channel and Soccer is only starting to realize it's potential in this country that the brass at MLSE will also show some USL1 games featuring Montreal and Vancouver. The more interest in Professional North American Soccer all around the more interest people will have in the Division 1 teams eg TFC.

Plenty of Trout

01-24-2009, 11:11 AM

Rogers website says it's part of the $9.99 a month sports package: http://www.rogers.com/web/content/personal-programming/sports

Perhaps you have an old grandfathered package? When I've subscribed stand-alone to GOLTV ($2.79 a month ... or less if you have more stand-alone channels) they've tried to sell me the package.

That must be it since I pay close to $30/mth for almost every sports channel except a handful including GOLTV, NHL Network, etc.

nfitz

01-24-2009, 11:30 AM

rocker

01-24-2009, 11:44 AM

now that MLSE has control of GolTV, they should create a reality show: "RPB ON THE ROAD"... follows the RPB to Columbus. or "A DAY IN THE LIFE OF A RPB" and pick 1 RPB a week and hang out with him... like King Dave.

Kickit09

01-24-2009, 11:52 AM

NOOOOOO!!!!! ....... well, time to cancel GolTV.

just something else for MLSE to mess up.

RIP GolTV, it was great while it lasted.

mighty_torontofc_2008

01-24-2009, 12:21 PM

Sorry, your info is incorrect!
GolTV Canada is at this time broadcast in SD but was granted approval in June 2006 to start a HD channel.
http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2006/db2006-239.htm

On another note GolTV is an amazing property I hope as it is a national channel and Soccer is only starting to realize it's potential in this country that the brass at MLSE will also show some USL1 games featuring Montreal and Vancouver. The more interest in Professional North American Soccer all around the more interest people will have in the Division 1 teams eg TFC.

Let the Impact and Caps find their own network...we want nothing to do with them...

nfitz

01-24-2009, 12:34 PM

Let the Impact and Caps find their own network...we want nothing to do with them...I'd sooner watch the Impact and Vancouver than all the foreign footie that fills the schedule at the moment. Do you suggest we should toss anything non-TFC off the schedule?

It's a big world out there - with 168-hours to fill in the week, I'm sure there's room for more than TFC.

rocker

01-24-2009, 12:49 PM

if Vancouver gets into MLS I would love to see coverage of both TFC and Vanny on there (not the games themselves unless it's just replay.. keep those on CBC).... they need to cultivate a taste in MLS among Canadians.. as someone already said, this may be a way to get at those people who love Euro and South American soccer but who haven't latched on to MLS yet because of lack of exposure or whatever. Replace that Footballers Lives crap with MLS highlight shows and stuff like that.

rocker

01-24-2009, 01:11 PM

this might also be good down the line for negotiations. once soccer has become a bigger ratings draw, MLSE can say "we'll put it on our own channel or else....." but that would be many many years down the line.

Blizzard

01-24-2009, 01:42 PM

That rating is based on one game. Also keep in mind that CBC is trying to attract urban and ethnic communities. Having soccer on their channel is one of the ways to attract them. Since CBC is public funded, I don't think ratings matter to them that much compare to other networks.

For the record, CBC didn't re-new their contract with Blue Jays even though Blue Jays' average ratings was about 300,000 per game.

For the record, the Jays are demanding $150,000 per game for broadcast rights. Add in the $50,000 production costs and one can see why CBC shied away from a renewal with the Jays.

I don't know what TFC might be making from CBC but certainly wouldn't be in the same ball park (so to speak).

The economics are very different.

mighty_torontofc_2008

01-24-2009, 02:53 PM

I'd sooner watch the Impact and Vancouver than all the foreign footie that fills the schedule at the moment. Do you suggest we should toss anything non-TFC off the schedule?

It's a big world out there - with 168-hours to fill in the week, I'm sure there's room for more than TFC.

i would rather watch footie from anywhere except Vancouver and Montreal. No non tfc stuff could still be on GOL like the current south american u20's, but more TFC related games, academy games, MLS games
etc..MTl and Van have Nothing to do with TFC and neither will be in MLS for a long time.

Redcoe15

01-24-2009, 02:59 PM

If MLSE goes ahead and expands Toronto FC and MLS coverage on GolTV for all Canadians, what happens if MLS adds more teams in Canada? Will there be a conflict of interest with MLSE controling GolTV's in-house content for TFC? :noidea:

mednus

01-24-2009, 04:14 PM

Let the Impact and Caps find their own network...we want nothing to do with them...

It's short sighted views like this that stagnate the growth of the game in this country.
You probably work for the CSA!

mighty_torontofc_2008

01-24-2009, 04:30 PM

It's short sighted views like this that stagnate the growth of the game in this country.
You probably work for the CSA!

:D

TFC is not about helping out the Caps and Impact...Its about TFC first and foremost, even the national team must come 2nd to TFC.

tfc

01-24-2009, 04:40 PM

NOOOOOO!!!!! ....... well, time to cancel GolTV.

just something else for MLSE to mess up.

RIP GolTV, it was great while it lasted.

... yep, might as well cancel your seasons tickets too, mlse is probably the most evil corporation on earth and god forbid we pay under 3$ a month to watch the team they've put together for us, not to mention all the european soccer on that channel too... what were they thinking? clearly just another cash grab. :shocked:

gtaguy

01-24-2009, 05:58 PM

a winning formula is to just add toronto fc content to the channel..
Maintain what they already have and not mess that up.. Im certain that alot of use that are goltv suscribers is because we get to see alittle of everything that is latin american soccer ..or european soccer.
Remember that goltv is different in the US to Latin america and to Canada.. we don't see the same stuff that others would be watching if we lived abroad...

nfitz

01-24-2009, 06:41 PM

etc..MTl and Van have Nothing to do with TFC and neither will be in MLS for a long time.They've got a heck of a lot more to do with TFC than the foreign teams that currently fill GOL TV's schedule.

And of course any patriotic Canadian is cheering on the Impact - Canada's only representative in the Champion's League.

Blizzard

01-24-2009, 06:59 PM

flatpicker

01-24-2009, 07:13 PM

I would also welcome more exposure for Montreal and Vancouver (and Ottawa, if that get a team).
Increasing exposure to Canadian footie is good for TFC. It's about growing the product. And that product includes TFC!
And I sure hope this will provide more coverage for the Canadian Championship!

mighty_torontofc_2008

01-25-2009, 03:28 PM

They've got a heck of a lot more to do with TFC than the foreign teams that currently fill GOL TV's schedule.

And of course any patriotic Canadian is cheering on the Impact - Canada's only representative in the Champion's League.

as a Celtic support i would never cheer for Rangers in Europe, so
as a TFC supporter i will NOT cheer on the Impact or Caps for the same reason...they are rivals it has nothing to do with Nationalistic ranting.

nfitz

01-25-2009, 07:58 PM

as a Celtic support i would never cheer for Rangers in Europehardy a great example, given the bigotry that is the basis of Celtic and Rangers support, perhaps far more than any similiar rivalry in football.

I can't possibly fathom why Toronto fans would not support (at least to some extent) whichever Canadian team was in the Champions League. I'm not talking stand on the seats and wave the shirts - but at least show mild interest, and not be cheering against them.

Though you have raised one ugly reason why one might choose otherwise.

torontocelt

01-25-2009, 08:55 PM

hardy a great example, given the bigotry that is the basis of Celtic and Rangers support, perhaps far more than any similiar rivalry in football.

Celtic and Rangers do of course have sections of their support who are bigots, this is well documented. It would be unfair however to believe that all fans of both clubs dislike their rival club purely for religious reasons. I myself am not religious at all yet I would never support Rangers in Europe either although I would certainly watch them with keen interest. Don't get me wrong I don't mind if Rangers do well to a certain degree in European football but this is mainly to improve the Scottish coefficient in Europe. When I watched Rangers last year in the Eufa cup semi finals and final I can honestly say that I did not want them to win whatsoever but that had nothing to do with religion and by not supporting them I certainly did not consider myself unpatriotic.

DoubleUp

01-25-2009, 09:00 PM

aslong as we get see all tfc games and the national team games.

nfitz

01-26-2009, 12:22 AM

Don't get me wrong I don't mind if Rangers do well to a certain degree in European football but this is mainly to improve the Scottish coefficient in Europe.And that I can understand. I fail to see why some Toronto fans don't see the benefit to Canadian soccer of a strong Montreal performance, and wish they had simply dropped out as early as possible.

mighty_torontofc_2008

01-26-2009, 11:30 AM

And that I can understand. I fail to see why some Toronto fans don't see the benefit to Canadian soccer of a strong Montreal performance, and wish they had simply dropped out as early as possible.

Ok are you a leaf fan? do you want to see Ottawa or Montreal have success when the leafs dont? The Impact don;t interest me in the least and i hope they are gone from the CCL next month.

mighty_torontofc_2008

01-26-2009, 11:33 AM

hardy a great example, given the bigotry that is the basis of Celtic and Rangers support, perhaps far more than any similiar rivalry in football.

I can't possibly fathom why Toronto fans would not support (at least to some extent) whichever Canadian team was in the Champions League. I'm not talking stand on the seats and wave the shirts - but at least show mild interest, and not be cheering against them.

Though you have raised one ugly reason why one might choose otherwise.

no other reason then i want TFC to lead the way in Canadian soccer,
the Caps and Impact mean nothing other then more opponents we need to beat in the Canada cup. Im not into the religious thing with Celtic/Rangers, im a protestant thats supports Celtic and have since the early 70's.

Steve

01-26-2009, 11:44 AM

I think this could turn out really well. Here is what I'd like to see MLSE doing with GolTV:

1) Keep the live stuff they have. No need to piss of current subscribers.
2) Get the rights to show as many MLS games as possible. Personally, I've been hoping for extended MLS coverage in canada. All we really get is the HDnet games. They could do this without interupting current coverage (of live games, obviously some in between shows would have to be reshuffled).
3) Add in MLS highlight shows during the MLS season. Even if they're short, and stuck in between other games. This will help to sell MLS as a legit league, and hopefully show some people in Canada what they've been missing if they haven't even given MLS a chance
4) Importantly, get the rights to any north american tourneys they can! Again, these can probably be had for a song right now, and MLSE would be increasing the value of their TFC investment by doing this. Get CONCACAF Champions league, superliga, Canada cup (if not shown by CBC), etc. Give it high production values. Show it as if it's a top tourny and people will start believing it is.

Essentially, MLSE can use this property to not only cash in on the soccer upswell, but cross-market with their other investment. The more MLS (and CONCACAF soccer) is treated like a first rate game, the more people will believe it is. Hell, most people won't even know that MLSE took over GolTV, so they'll just believe that if GolTV is taking MLS serious, it must be a good league now. People are sheep, take advantage of it and not only will MLSE see profits rise, but we'll see the quality of the game rise. Win/win.

SQUIRREL

01-26-2009, 12:05 PM

Very well thought out. Good job Steve.

Oh and don't forget more HD games...lol.

nfitz

01-26-2009, 12:22 PM

Ok are you a leaf fan? do you want to see Ottawa or Montreal have success when the leafs dont?I'm always cheering a bit for the remaining Canadian team in the Stanley cup, no matter who they are - though without international competition, it's not that interesting.

Though I've never been a Leaf fan - not originally being from Toronto, and given Toronto is typically one of the worst teams in the league, with no sign of improvement, it's hard to get very excited by them. And I find it hard getting excited about the game itself, the fighting is out-of-control and distracts from the game, and the commercial breaks are very annoying; and these days even when you attend the game live, they have all these extra time-outs for the commercials; frankly OHL and college hockey is more interesting to watch for me.

However, if we had a proper Champion's League-like thing for Hockey, and the Calgary Flames were playing Moscow Dynamo, I wouldn't be cheering for Moscow.

The Impact don;t interest me in the least and i hope they are gone from the CCL next month.Traitor! :)

mighty_torontofc_2008

01-26-2009, 02:08 PM

I'm always cheering a bit for the remaining Canadian team in the Stanley cup, no matter who they are - though without international competition, it's not that interesting.

Though I've never been a Leaf fan - not originally being from Toronto, and given Toronto is typically one of the worst teams in the league, with no sign of improvement, it's hard to get very excited by them. And I find it hard getting excited about the game itself, the fighting is out-of-control and distracts from the game, and the commercial breaks are very annoying; and these days even when you attend the game live, they have all these extra time-outs for the commercials; frankly OHL and college hockey is more interesting to watch for me.

However, if we had a proper Champion's League-like thing for Hockey, and the Calgary Flames were playing Moscow Dynamo, I wouldn't be cheering for Moscow.

Traitor! :)

:drinking::D

Hustle

01-26-2009, 04:45 PM

Shakes McQueen

01-26-2009, 04:55 PM

Yeah, there is plenty of fluff on GOL right now that could be moved out for some real good shit....all TFC games not on CBC...and throw some J league shit in there too. Get rid of Footballers Lives...although the chick that hosts it is kinda cute...

Sossy Bedarian?! She is awful.

Footballers Lives could be a decent show, if the episodes weren't clearly from about four years ago, and if they got someone with a less annoying voice to host it.

Listen MLSE, just don't take away my La Liga games, or the Bundesliga, or Ray Hudson - and you can cut away whatever else you want. I welcome more comprehensive MLS coverage - but there will be a one man riot outside your HQ if you take away my ability to watch Barcelona play, or to listen to Ray Hudson say Messi looks like a "fish on a bicycle".

- Scott

mighty_torontofc_2008

01-26-2009, 05:01 PM