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J .
01-15-2009, 09:13 PM
With TFC selecting Cronin, White and Frei, are you happy with what transpired on draft day for TFC?

MFG1
01-15-2009, 09:17 PM
I got home late, and I thought you guys would be talking more about this. It seems you guys were let down. I was really expecting a trade or something, so in my opinion I really dont know what to think

nascarguy
01-15-2009, 09:19 PM
we got some good players but mo said there not on the team 100% yet everyone on the team has to still fight for there spot on the team

Ossington Mental Youth
01-15-2009, 09:23 PM
i think we did well enough, people put a) too much stock into the actual players (even then our players ALL did well at the combine except Obrien White whos injured) and b) thought they could draft better (of course they do having no experience and all assumptions). We made out pretty well, the fact of the matter is that none of these guys are certain success stories

Daveisonfire
01-15-2009, 09:25 PM
Delighted..

I think Mo took the best players available...took a solid midfielder in Cronin at #2
Grabbed OBW at #4 because if he hadn't, he wouldn't have gotten him at all. Ives had OBW projected at going at the #9 pick...aka not Toronto's and Frei was a steal in the 13th spot. These guys will be good as either trade bate, or as future talent to develop for when our current players retire or move on. White could replace Dichio, Cronin could replace Robbo and Frei could replace Sutton.

I would rather see Mo address our needs with proven talent rather than college graduates.

Shakes McQueen
01-15-2009, 09:26 PM
Mo did well. I suspect one of our keepers is going to be packing his bags before the start of the season, however. I assume Mo is counting on Frei and Edwards having trade value, because I don't see Sutts going anywhere.

- Scott

peter_tfc
01-15-2009, 09:28 PM
Mo did the right thing when a favourable trade didn't present itself (like with Brian McBride for Barrett). He waited as long as he could and when nothing came up that was up to his standards he got the three best players available - the best keeper, the best midfielder and formerly considered the best striker in the entire draft class. Why get a defender when we know he can't possibly be a mature starter this year. Now he has the leverage to get Bornstein from Chivas or move Robbo to centre back and play Cronin.

olegunnar
01-15-2009, 09:44 PM
I had my heart set on Serioux and a role player. Then a DP striker. SO in that sense I'm disappointed.

Thing is though...what we've always lacked is average MLS talent and depth....we have the 18K a year crappy guys...then the over priced under achievers ...not a lot of Dunivants or Barretts or even Hunter Freeman types. In this draft if we keep them...we built up or level of middle class career MLS types. So in this sense I'm happy.

So I'm on the fence.

T_Mizz
01-15-2009, 09:56 PM
This really reminds me of last year when Mo somehow got two of the best prospects that somehow slipped now we did about the same picking up three great top 5 caliber players. We all saw how last year's picks turned out so I don't want to get too excited but this is a good starting 11, assuming it stays

mighty_torontofc_2008
01-15-2009, 10:42 PM
The guys on ESPN said TFC won the draft and they were right. Mo did a terrific job...Whit anf Frei were both steals some other MLS team will
regret not taking a chance on....well done MO.:canada:

Shway
01-15-2009, 10:44 PM
Even torontos 5 pick was good,
Kyle Hall is a speedy fast player, and will do well in the MLS i think, IMO

GuelphStorm2007
01-15-2009, 10:51 PM
I am pleased with the selections. Lets see how these kids will play this year.

SweetOwnGoal
01-15-2009, 10:52 PM
You do NOT build MLS teams through the draft. This is not the NHL. Prospects are next to useless for TFC in '09. Unless he moves one of these guys for an established player before the season starts this was an unqualified disaster -- an absolute worst case scenario.

The only thing I'll give Mo a pass on here is that I'm guessing that he wasn't being offered much of anything for the picks. Which begs the question of why he collected so many of them in the first place, doesn’t it?
We still need a CB. We still need a forward that will contribute in '09 (White will be cover, at best). We are no closer to fixing those problems today and we now have one less way to try and get the help. Without help in those areas, get ready for another dance in the 13th-7th range. That's not good enough anymore.

Pachuco
01-15-2009, 10:53 PM
I'm really happy with the draft results!

I_AM_CANADIAN
01-15-2009, 10:54 PM
I'm happy with what Mo's done. The only thing he really needs to do is pick up a centre back. Whether he comes from abroad or MLS, we need someone competent back there.

GuelphStorm2007
01-15-2009, 10:57 PM
I think we are at least a decent CB AND A QUALITY STRIKER AWAY FROM MAKING A DECENT PLAYOOFF RUN.

flatpicker
01-15-2009, 10:59 PM
how the hell do I know if Mo's decisions are good?
I am not a scout.
I am not a manager.
I'm not even a player.
My opinion would be pure speculation and guess-work until the day I see these guys actually take the field.

Beach_Red
01-15-2009, 10:59 PM
You do NOT build MLS teams through the draft. This is not the NHL. Prospects are next to useless for TFC in '09.


There's a comment on here somewhere about building up "middle class" MLS players - with rosters that require so many American players (and in our case Canadian players), then yeah, you do have to build some of the team through the draft.

The Oz
01-15-2009, 11:02 PM
Personally I think the darft was well done but I do still think we need a proven CB whether from the mls or (preferably) outside. The dp striker business, no matter how much i would like it, isn't #1 priority. We have 4 strikers now that I would have no problem seeing playing in a match (Dichio, Barret, Ibbe, and White) and now we have great talent with DeRo coming in and depth with Frei and Cronin (I see Frei, Edwards, or Sutton gone by next seasons end, even though Frei is GA Mo will keep the two best) but now we need a great CB. Once we have that I'm ready to just sit and wait for the season to start.

mclaren
01-15-2009, 11:10 PM
how the hell do I know if Mo's decisions are good?
I am not a scout.
I am not a manager.
I'm not even a player.
My opinion would be pure speculation and guess-work until the day I see these guys actually take the field.

Agreed - remember last year's draft? Let's face it, these players rarely make an impact. Mo might enjoy his day out but TFC will never be successful while he's here. Sometimes the truth hurts.

Roogsy
01-15-2009, 11:13 PM
I am cool with what Mo has done so far. If there wasn't a trade, there wasn't a trade. If someone can find me someone in MLS who has done a better job than Mo in these drafts, point him out to me.

jrey
01-15-2009, 11:14 PM
What I like about the draft:

- We got a domestic who might pan out into something big.
- We got a young replacement for Robbo who probably won't be around after this season.
- We got a solid keeper who will challenge Edwards and Sutton. Even if they don't work as trade bait, we're still better off if this guy can play.

What I don't like:
- No trades for established players; but Carver told me earlier that TFC wouldn't pick up players for the sake of picking them up. They want to get the right ones.

What I'm waiting on:
- Their performance this season - obviously.
- The Dp signing; I honestly think it's going to be a defender. The way Carver reacted when I asked him if they were stocking up on attackers because a Dp defender was in the works... I just felt it.

What fucking excites me:
- Quality Depth (it would seem, anyway); maybe this year internationals won't hurt us AS much... between that and better MLS scheduling hopefully.
- O'Brian White! If he can step up to the MLS level, we may be on our way to solidifying the striker position. Also, hoping that living in Canada will make him decide to play for us.

flatpicker
01-15-2009, 11:14 PM
Agreed - remember last year's draft? Let's face it, these players rarely make an impact. Mo might enjoy his day out but TFC will never be successful while he's here. Sometimes the truth hurts.

well now hang on a sec!

I don't want you to make it sound like I think Mo is hurting the team!

I'm just saying it's impossible to have a strong opinion on the draft until after these guys play for TFC.

SweetOwnGoal
01-15-2009, 11:17 PM
There's a comment on here somewhere about building up "middle class" MLS players - with rosters that require so many American players (and in our case Canadian players), then yeah, you do have to build some of the team through the draft.

No doubt that solid domestics is important, but the draft is quickly losing its use.

TFC has $850,000 in allocation. Although some will be used on DeRo, that's a whole lot. This is the year to make a run at a championship (not a playoff berth, a championship). We had a unique set of assets that we will likely never have again.

To me today was just same old, same old. And that disappoints me. Maybe I'm guilty of hyperbole by calling it an "unqualified disaster," but I'm disappointed. I was really hopeful that those three picks could have been turned into a MLS proven CB.

The one positive is White. His status as a domestic makes him very valuable to us. Frei I can handle (so long as Edwards is shipped off) because he's a GA player -- he doesn't count against the Sr roster or the cap. Cronin is where I have a problem. We just used our No. 2 pick in the draft to select an international back-up. We REALLY need to get away from using internationals as back-ups.

Hall is a token (but at least a token from Don Mills) and Mike Grella is going to Europe, so whatever...

The Oz
01-15-2009, 11:18 PM
well now hang on a sec!

I don't want you to make it sound like I think Mo is hurting the team!

I'm just saying it's impossible to have a strong opinion on the draft until after these guys play for TFC.

I agree with you but I'm still a little enraged by the negativity around this board. It seems for every move there seems to be 1 person positive about and 3 negative. No we won't know exactly how these players pan out until we see them play nor will we know if they are on the trading block (which i doubt) but it would be nice to see some excitement around here for hte new season everyone once in awhile.

SweetOwnGoal
01-15-2009, 11:21 PM
I am cool with what Mo has done so far. If there wasn't a trade, there wasn't a trade. If someone can find me someone in MLS who has done a better job than Mo in these drafts, point him out to me.

http://www.revolutionsoccer.net/team/index.cfm?ac=coachbio&bio=31959
http://toronto.fc.mlsnet.com/players/bio.jsp?team=t200&player=kinnear_d

Mo's reputation is based on one pick - Altidore. My cat could have picked Edu and Wynne at No. 1.

Shakes McQueen
01-15-2009, 11:24 PM
You do NOT build MLS teams through the draft. This is not the NHL. Prospects are next to useless for TFC in '09. Unless he moves one of these guys for an established player before the season starts this was an unqualified disaster -- an absolute worst case scenario.

The only thing I'll give Mo a pass on here is that I'm guessing that he wasn't being offered much of anything for the picks. Which begs the question of why he collected so many of them in the first place, doesn’t it?
We still need a CB. We still need a forward that will contribute in '09 (White will be cover, at best). We are no closer to fixing those problems today and we now have one less way to try and get the help. Without help in those areas, get ready for another dance in the 13th-7th range. That's not good enough anymore.

Sorry dude, but this is one of the more insane rants I've heard, haha.

Mo confirmed he only had one trade offer, but that they wanted all of TFC's picks for the player involved, which was asking too much.

We've also got word that Mo is on the cusp of signing a striker, and working on a CB. This was a good day.

Plus Frei might allow us to trade Edwards, which gives us more trade bait.

But being disappointed, not because of who he drafted, but because he drafted at all? That's a little over the top. MLS teams rely not only on bringing in foreign players, but by having serviceable deapth players. Kids like Cronin and O'Brien could end up filling either role nicely - if not better.

- Scott

SweetOwnGoal
01-15-2009, 11:25 PM
- We got a solid keeper who will challenge Edwards and Sutton. Even if they don't work as trade bait, we're still better off if this guy can play.



If we carry two international back-up keepers on our senior roster I'm jumping off the Bloor Viaduct -- suicide screen be dammed.

AL-MO
01-15-2009, 11:28 PM
You do NOT build MLS teams through the draft.

Thank you for stating this.

That is all.

Ossington Mental Youth
01-15-2009, 11:29 PM
Frei doesnt count as Senior, hes GA

jrey
01-15-2009, 11:33 PM
If we carry two international back-up keepers on our senior roster I'm jumping off the Bloor Viaduct -- suicide screen be dammed.

As OMY said, GA - doesn't count as SI.

And I would think that if he performs, Edwards gets a one way ticket out of here. And I'm fine with that, as long as we're left with Sutton and a backup/starting job challenger who can step in when we need him.

SweetOwnGoal
01-15-2009, 11:34 PM
Sorry dude, but this is one of the more insane rants I've heard, haha.

Mo confirmed he only had one trade offer, but that they wanted all of TFC's picks for the player involved, which was asking too much.


And you believe Mo why? Plus we'd need to know who the player was to evaluate whether it was worth it. However, if that player was a MLS proved CB, it was.



We've also got word that Mo is on the cusp of signing a striker, and working on a CB. This was a good day.


How's the Kool-Aid, dude?



Plus Frei might allow us to trade Edwards, which gives us more trade bait.


Edwards won't be on the roster, but I suspect we'll get about as much for him as we did Boyens...



But being disappointed, not because of who he drafted, but because he drafted at all? That's a little over the top. MLS teams rely not only on bringing in foreign players, but by having serviceable deapth players. Kids like Cronin and O'Brien could end up filling either role nicely - if not better.

- Scott

Not really, no. In the early years the draft played an important role. It's increasingly becoming useless. If the three players picked today appear in 25 games total next year I'd be stunned.


TFC is no closer to a championship now then it was at 9 a.m. this morning. Actually, it might be further away because it just wasted an opportunity to get legitimately better and instead rolled the dice on prospects.

If you’re happy about this, you're NHL thinking. The MLS draft is not the NHL's.

Shakes McQueen
01-15-2009, 11:36 PM
Thank you for stating this.

That is all.

You don't build teams with 4th round MLS draft picks, but every MLS draft has a handful of players with the potential to be quite good.

In TFC's case, we somehow managed to get three of those players. Discounting their skills because they came to us through the draft, doesn't make any sense.

Cronin and White are both really good soccer players. Frei I haven't really seen, but I've read that he was essentially the best keeper in the draft.

This draft had quite a few players with the potential to be great. Since Mo never got any good offers for our picks, how can you fault him for using them to get pretty good prospects?

If he had, say, turned down Serioux for one of our picks, in favour of going to the draft, then I could see the criticism. But so far the only information we have, is Mo telling us that no trade options were available.

- Scott

SweetOwnGoal
01-15-2009, 11:38 PM
As OMY said, GA - doesn't count as SI.

And I would think that if he performs, Edwards gets a one way ticket out of here. And I'm fine with that, as long as we're left with Sutton and a backup/starting job challenger who can step in when we need him.

Yes, my mistake. However, we're still not carrying three keepers.

There is no way in hell Edwards is with the team this year. He shouldn't have been there in the first place (and I have nothing against him. He just didn't make sense for TFC). We will get a third round pick if we are lucky. More realistically he'll be simply released.

If, for some reason, Edwards stays...then we REALLY screwed up the Frei pick...

AL-MO
01-15-2009, 11:43 PM
You don't build teams with 4th round MLS draft picks, but every MLS draft has a handful of players with the potential to be quite good.

In TFC's case, we somehow managed to get three of those players. Discounting their skills because they came to us through the draft, doesn't make any sense.

Cronin and White are both really good soccer players. Frei I haven't really seen, but I've read that he was essentially the best keeper in the draft.

This draft had quite a few players with the potential to be great. Since Mo never got any good offers for our picks, how can you fault him for using them to get pretty good prospects?

If he had, say, turned down Serioux for one of our picks, in favour of going to the draft, then I could see the criticism. But so far the only information we have, is Mo telling us that no trade options were available.

- Scott

Shakes, the MLS draft is somewhere on the level of the MLB draft in terms of players who come in and can be starters for you in this league. Meaning its a total crap shoot!

Look at the players Mo has drafted up to this year. How many of them are making contributions?

I have no problem with the draft, but its not the salvation that some users on this board believe it to be.

While this is said, it looks like Mo did a decent job today, but who knows if any of these players will turn out. I have a feeling that out of any of them Frei will be the best of the bunch.

Beach_Red
01-15-2009, 11:45 PM
And you believe Mo why? Plus we'd need to know who the player was to evaluate whether it was worth it. However, if that player was a MLS proved CB, it was.


Well, let's say you're right, the draft is useless. Then, who'd want to trade a proven MLS defender for useless prospects?

mighty_torontofc_2008
01-15-2009, 11:45 PM
Agreed - remember last year's draft? Let's face it, these players rarely make an impact. Mo might enjoy his day out but TFC will never be successful while he's here. Sometimes the truth hurts.


hes alreasy been a success...he put a team out in year one....year two we made good improvements...Fatc is he has done his job well...truth hurts.

Ossington Mental Youth
01-15-2009, 11:46 PM
Al-Mo hit the nail on the head

J .
01-15-2009, 11:46 PM
Mo I think did a good job. I hope Mo has a set lineup to start the season.

Keyman
01-15-2009, 11:50 PM
Yes
Based on the reports that have been provided to fans, and the opinions of both John Carver and Mo Johnston, we have acquired the three best players we possibly could. Obviously, as a fan, it's very difficult to analyze this draft, as we have no real first hand looks at the players. Nevertheless, I think we did very well today based on the information that is out there. Say what you want about the draft, and I'll admit im very cynical towards it, but there are players that come out of the SuperDraft and make significant impacts on teams. Hopefully, this is the case with the players we drafted. The odds are against us, but maybe this is the year we finally get lucky, and defy the odds.

Shakes McQueen
01-15-2009, 11:50 PM
And you believe Mo why? Plus we'd need to know who the player was to evaluate whether it was worth it. However, if that player was a MLS proved CB, it was.

And you don't believe Mo, why?

Do you have information that Mo has outright lied to us in the past? We know that deals he has spoken about have fallen apart in the past, but what reason do you have to insinuate he would lie about something as unnecessary as this?


How's the Kool-Aid, dude?

Why choose to get personally insulting about it? You're getting into a pattern already. You clearly just don't like, or don't trust Mo.

Do you have information that Mo has outright lied to us in the past? We know that deals he has spoken about have fallen apart in the past, but what reason do you have to insinuate he would lie about something as unnecessary as this?


Edwards won't be on the roster, but I suspect we'll get about as much for him as we did Boyens...

Why? Look what we got for James. Edwards was capped for the USMNT, which means he is at least on their radar as a potential talent. Other people here also agree he is a pretty good talent - in some ways better than Sutts.


Not really, no. In the early years the draft played an important role. It's increasingly becoming useless. If the three players picked today appear in 25 games total next year I'd be stunned.

Perhaps, but it wouldn't be for lack of talent. Cronin is ready to start in the MLS immediately. Whether our current starting XI has room for White, Cronin, and Frei, is another matter.

I agree with you that the draft has become more irrelevant than in the early years, but not completely irrelevant - just moreso. Edu was drafted. Wynne was drafted. Ibbe was drafted. Altidore was drafted, and not in the first round. Good soccer players still come out of the NCAA.


TFC is no closer to a championship now then it was at 9 a.m. this morning. Actually, it might be further away because it just wasted an opportunity to get legitimately better and instead rolled the dice on prospects.

It was only a "wasted opportunity" if good trade options were available. Do you have any information that Mo rejected good trades, to hang on to our draft picks? If not, then you're being needlessly pessimistic.

If nothing better was available, then I have no problem with rolling the dice in the draft. People like Ives Galarcep seemed to think this year's draft had quite a few potential MLS stars. But I suppose he's just drinking the kool-aid too.


If you’re happy about this, you're NHL thinking. The MLS draft is not the NHL's.

No, I'm not. The different between the MLS and NHL drafts, is that the NHL draft has decent depth well into the third round. The MLS draft has decent depth right up until about 2/3's of the way through the first round.

You don't go into the draft looking for those last few pieces to make a championship run. You go looking for players like Ibbe, that can be developed into potential future good players.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
01-15-2009, 11:53 PM
I have no problem with the draft, but its not the salvation that some users on this board believe it to be.

Who said today's draft was salvation for our club? Or anything even close to that? I certainly didn't.

I think we drafted well, because we got three highly rated players, who may or may not become great players. All three have the potential to be great.

If no good trade options were available, then what other route should we have gone?

- Scott

SweetOwnGoal
01-15-2009, 11:55 PM
You don't build teams with 4th round MLS draft picks, but every MLS draft has a handful of players with the potential to be quite good.

In TFC's case, we somehow managed to get three of those players. Discounting their skills because they came to us through the draft, doesn't make any sense.

Cronin and White are both really good soccer players. Frei I haven't really seen, but I've read that he was essentially the best keeper in the draft.

This draft had quite a few players with the potential to be great. Since Mo never got any good offers for our picks, how can you fault him for using them to get pretty good prospects?

If he had, say, turned down Serioux for one of our picks, in favour of going to the draft, then I could see the criticism. But so far the only information we have, is Mo telling us that no trade options were available.

- Scott

Honestly...how many games do you think these guys are going to play in 2009?

People need to get this "making the playoffs would be good" thinking out of their mind (and the "can't win in the third year" thinking too). This team is set-up to win NOW. It will be a long time before things are set-up this well for TFC. In 2010, for instance, we have expiring international slots and expiring allocation. Also, we will probably only have one more year of Dichio. Maybe Robbo too. And DeRo and Amado aren't going to be any younger in '10 either.

NOW is the time to go for it and part of that is giving up prospects (which have a far less chance to contribute in MLS than any other league that drafts). If this were the 2007 draft I'd be OK with this. We'd have time to see if they work out. But it isn't 2007. And, to me, an opportunity was wasted today.

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 12:01 AM
NOW is the time to go for it and part of that is giving up prospects (which have a far less chance to contribute in MLS than any other league that drafts). If this were the 2007 draft I'd be OK with this. We'd have time to see if they work out. But it isn't 2007. And, to me, an opportunity was wasted today.

Again - do you have ANY information that opportunities presented themselves, and were subsequently wasted? If not, then it wasn't a wasted opportunity.

If Mo turned down good trades to hang onto our draft picks, then I may be annoyed too. But I have absolutely no information corroborating that. Do you?

- Scott

Beach_Red
01-16-2009, 12:01 AM
And, to me, an opportunity was wasted today.

Look, you're right about the draft, it's close to useless, what makes you think there was any opportunity there? Who would trade a useful player for draft picks?

But you're also right, this team is built for this year and it looks good. What this team needs wasn't available today, doesn't mean the team won't get it.

Roogsy
01-16-2009, 12:03 AM
http://www.revolutionsoccer.net/team/index.cfm?ac=coachbio&bio=31959
http://toronto.fc.mlsnet.com/players/bio.jsp?team=t200&player=kinnear_d

Mo's reputation is based on one pick - Altidore. My cat could have picked Edu and Wynne at No. 1.

Mo's reputation began with Altidore and has shown an eye for talent and an ability to use draft picks wisely. What else do we want from him? Are you saying you would have made the exact same moves as he has? Why then didn't everyone else involved in the draft?

Armchair quarterbacking is fine and dandy but let's not take away from what he has done because after the fact we like the moves.

Pachuco
01-16-2009, 12:06 AM
Yes, my mistake. However, we're still not carrying three keepers.

There is no way in hell Edwards is with the team this year. He shouldn't have been there in the first place (and I have nothing against him. He just didn't make sense for TFC). We will get a third round pick if we are lucky. More realistically he'll be simply released.

If, for some reason, Edwards stays...then we REALLY screwed up the Frei pick...

really? so if Edwards stays because we traded Frei for a proven CB, we screwed up???? Your arguments make no sense.

SweetOwnGoal
01-16-2009, 12:07 AM
W
I think we drafted well, because we got three highly rated players, who may or may not become great players. All three have the potential to be great.

- Scott

You do realize that Cronin and White are both 22, right? How many 22-year-olds that have never played professional football turn out to be "great?"

Frei I'll reserve judgement with because he's a keeper. Plus he has an EU passport, so we'll likely sell him to Norway if he turns out OK.

But, it's likely more accurate to say that all three have the potential to be just OK.

Keyman
01-16-2009, 12:08 AM
People have exagerated the inneffectiveness of the SuperDraft to a point where it is deemed utterly useless by some. This is not a logical assertion, in my opinion, as it degrades the potential benefits which can rise out of the draft. I find it difficult to be critical of the fact that Mo did not trade both picks in order to acquire someone, because that someone is an unknown player. How can you criticize him when you're not sure what he would have recieved? Hopefully, however, down the road the draft does fade in importance for Toronto, and our youth system becomes our goldmine for young talent. But that's besides the point, we did well today. These three players could prove to be valuable, as it seems our starting XI is basically set with the recent signing rumors. Three depth players is worth more than one good player. Development could be quick under the tutelage of players like Dichio, Brennan and Robinson, who are all very good teachers.

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 12:08 AM
Look, you're right about the draft, it's close to useless, what makes you think there was any opportunity there? Who would trade a useful player for draft picks?

But you're also right, this team is built for this year and it looks good. What this team needs wasn't available today, doesn't mean the team won't get it.

This is a much shorter version of what I was getting at. We have ZERo evidence that other trade opportunities were available.

And if Cronin or Frei end up being used as trade bait for a useful player, all the better.

Remember that useless draft pick we used on Julius James? Drafting that guy didn't get us anything.

- Scott

SweetOwnGoal
01-16-2009, 12:08 AM
really? so if Edwards stays because we traded Frei for a proven CB, we screwed up???? Your arguments make no sense.

All of my arguments are based on the assumption that we are keeping all three. I've been clear that getting rid of at least two of them is the smart move...for anyone that can play now.

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 12:13 AM
You do realize that Cronin and White are both 22, right? How many 22-year-olds that have never played professional football turn out to be "great?"

Frei I'll reserve judgement with because he's a keeper. Plus he has an EU passport, so we'll likely sell him to Norway if he turns out OK.

But, it's likely more accurate to say that all three have the potential to be just OK.

This isn't Europe, where prospects are groomed right out of their diapers. This is the MLS, where "great" players (by MLS standards) can play well into their late bloody 30's (something that also rarely happens in Europe).

We also currently have no idea how well White or Cronin will play in the MLS, but we certainly have previous cases of NCAA drafted players competing in the MLS just fine.

I'm also still waiting for your sources that told you about the trades Mo gave up to hang on to our draft picks, and hence, wasted opportunities.

- Scott

Keyman
01-16-2009, 12:14 AM
Mo did reject a trade for the 2nd and 4th overall picks. See the Soccer Show.

Yohan
01-16-2009, 12:15 AM
^Even so, this is just draft day. another month or so before training camp starts.

lots of time for Trader Mo to make deals.

SweetOwnGoal
01-16-2009, 12:16 AM
Mo's reputation began with Altidore and has shown an eye for talent and an ability to use draft picks wisely. What else do we want from him? Are you saying you would have made the exact same moves as he has? Why then didn't everyone else involved in the draft?

Armchair quarterbacking is fine and dandy but let's not take away from what he has done because after the fact we like the moves.

What's he done? Edu and Wynne were consensus No 1s. Other than those picks what, exactly, has he done that is deserving of his reputation as a drafter? Phelan? Boyens? Trading up for Edwards?

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 12:17 AM
Mo did reject a trade for the 2nd and 4th overall picks. See the Soccer Show.

Yes, because he said they were asking too much (our two highest picks), for the player involved. We also know for a fact that Mo was shopping our picks around like crazy prior to the draft, and even at the combine - meaning he didn't WANT to hang onto them.

Which tells me whoever the player involved was, he most likely wasn't worth it.

- Scott

SweetOwnGoal
01-16-2009, 12:18 AM
This isn't Europe, where prospects are groomed right out of their diapers. This is the MLS, where "great" players (by MLS standards) can play well into their late bloody 30's (something that also rarely happens in Europe).

We also currently have no idea how well White or Cronin will play in the MLS, but we certainly have previous cases of NCAA drafted players competing in the MLS just fine.

I'm also still waiting for your sources that told you about the trades Mo gave up to hang on to our draft picks, and hence, wasted opportunities.

- Scott

ANY current MLS starter is more valuable than all three first round picks. I appreciate that you disagree with that. But, I'm not sure the evidence is on your side.

Pachuco
01-16-2009, 12:19 AM
Mo did reject a trade for the 2nd and 4th overall picks. See the Soccer Show.

Based on all the rumors we kept hearing, I would think Dallas was willing to trade Serioux for 2nd and 4th. If that was the case, would you have taken the deal?

personally, YES. BUT - Only for the reason that it doesn't seem as though Mo has anyone on the radar for CB. In the interview he says he's almost locked in another striker, so if he was close to a CB I think he would've mentioned that as well.

This scares me, because we could very easily end up with Velez and Marshall at CB at the beginning of the season. Not to comfortable with that.

Actually, as I'm typing this I'm thinking if Cronin is really as MLS ready as they say he is, put Cronin in Robbo's spot and move Robbo down to CB in place of Marshall. That wouldn't be as bad I think.

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 12:19 AM
What's he done? Edu and Wynne were consensus No 1s. Other than those picks what, exactly, has he done that is deserving of his reputation as a drafter? Phelan? Boyens? Trading up for Edwards?

Altidore in the second round? Julius James, who was considered a bright enough star for rebuilding Houston, that they essentially gave us Dwayne De Rosario in return for him?

Picking out the picks that didn't work out, is petty. As a percentage, I imagine Mo probably does far better than most GM's in MLS.

- Scott

Yohan
01-16-2009, 12:20 AM
Let's not forget that sometimes, the MLS superdraft picks do turn out good?

Pachuco
01-16-2009, 12:20 AM
What's he done? Edu and Wynne were consensus No 1s. Other than those picks what, exactly, has he done that is deserving of his reputation as a drafter? Phelan? Boyens? Trading up for Edwards?

Did Mo not trade up to get Wynne? so you would call that a gimme? I love how you look for ways not to give credit to Mo. I actually don't even believe that you followed the draft back when Wynne was drafted.

Roogsy
01-16-2009, 12:20 AM
What's he done? Edu and Wynne were consensus No 1s. Other than those picks what, exactly, has he done that is deserving of his reputation as a drafter? Phelan? Boyens? Trading up for Edwards?

So you ARE saying you would have done the same things as Mo?

He also made some nice moves in the supplement draft, including fleecing RSL.

What do you need? 10 years straight of fantastic drafting? Who has that? A couple of good years and a couple of nice moves is enough to make all the other teams wary of Mo...if it's not enough for you...perhaps you should be running an MLS team and face off against Mo? :noidea:

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 12:21 AM
ANY current MLS starter is more valuable than all three first round picks. I appreciate that you disagree with that. But, I'm not sure the evidence is on your side.

Okay, lets trade Cronin, White, and Frei to Houston for Julius James. He's a current MLS starter.

Does that seem like a good deal to you?

- Scott

Keyman
01-16-2009, 12:22 AM
Yes, because he said they were asking too much (our two highest picks), for the player involved. We also know for a fact that Mo was shopping our picks around like crazy prior to the draft, and even at the combine - meaning he didn't WANT to hang onto them.

Which tells me whoever the player involved was, he most likely wasn't worth it.

- Scott
I know, I was just telling you. I'm generally happy with what went on today.

Pachuco
01-16-2009, 12:23 AM
Okay, lets trade Cronin, White, and Frei to Houston for Julius James. He's a current MLS starter.

Does that seem like a good deal to you?

- Scott

You are setting yourself up for ...

James is not an MLS starter ;)

Azerban
01-16-2009, 12:23 AM
What's he done? Edu and Wynne were consensus No 1s. Other than those picks what, exactly, has he done that is deserving of his reputation as a drafter? Phelan? Boyens? Trading up for Edwards?

hey tell me which players you would've picked instead

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 12:24 AM
Did Mo not trade up to get Wynne? so you would call that a gimme? I love how you look for ways not to give credit to Mo. I actually don't even believe that you followed the draft back when Wynne was drafted.

As soon as people start mentioning Phelan and Boyens as proof that Mo isn't a good drafter, I essentially tune out.

Good drafters don't have 100% success rates. They probably don't even have 40% success rates. Almost every year for the pastseveral years, Mo has managed to get a good player from the draft. And as Pachuco said, he even drafted up to get Wynne - a move which would have been spat on by SweetOwnGoal, given his current position.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 12:25 AM
You are setting yourself up for ...

James is not an MLS starter ;)

James SHOULDN'T be an MLS starter, haha.

- Scott

Keyman
01-16-2009, 12:26 AM
How the hell can people be critical of anything that has occured when the fucking offseason isn't even over!?

Arguments based on speculation are retarded. Look at the facts, i.e. trades/signigs when training camp starts. That's when judgement day comes.

Cashcleaner
01-16-2009, 12:28 AM
I'm very satisfied with the outcome of this year's draft. We picked up a pretty solid-looking backup keeper and White and Cronin have their obvious attributes they can bring to the pitch. I'm actually not totally convinced on White's enthusiasm for playing with Toronto, but I think Cronin and Frei are really looking forward to playing up here.

Yes, the draft doesn't really make or break a club's season, but we didn't exactly pick up any dead weight either.

Azerban
01-16-2009, 12:29 AM
mo drafted wynne 1st, and then rebought him once he came to toronto for a second round pick and a partial allocation

mo traded ronnie o'broken for san joses 1st round pick (second overall)

mo traded julius james and an allocation for derosario

mo traded the rights to a guy who was never going to play here for barrett

mo acquired guevara when it was thought he was a total lunatic and would never play in mls again and he's fit in perfectly and loves it here

mo got dichio. nuff said.

mo got ibrahim, a young little kid with tremendous upside for a conditional 2010 draft pick



mo is terrible worst ever run him out of town with pitchforks and torches

SweetOwnGoal
01-16-2009, 12:30 AM
Okay, lets trade Cronin, White, and Frei to Houston for Julius James. He's a current MLS starter.

Does that seem like a good deal to you?

- Scott

No, James isn't a starter.

Roogsy
01-16-2009, 12:31 AM
mo drafted wynne 1st, and then rebought him once he came to toronto for a second round pick and a partial allocation

mo traded ronnie o'broken for san joses 1st round pick (second overall)

mo traded julius james and an allocation for derosario

mo traded the rights to a guy who was never going to play here for barrett

mo acquired guevara when it was thought he was a total lunatic and would never play in mls again and he's fit in perfectly and loves it here

mo got dichio. nuff said.

mo got ibrahim, a young little kid with tremendous upside for a conditional 2010 draft pick



mo is terrible worst ever run him out of town with pitchforks and torches

QFT

Mo has some serious flaws...but his activity in the drafts and trading is not one of them.

Flipityflu
01-16-2009, 12:31 AM
i'm happy.

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 12:32 AM
No, James isn't a starter.

He was good enough to be a starter with his last team. You're getting pedantic.

- Scott

Keyman
01-16-2009, 12:32 AM
Ugh. Mo thread. kkthnxbye.

In Mo I Trust.

CretanBull
01-16-2009, 12:33 AM
By all accounts, Frei will challenge for a starting role. One of the pre-draft scouting reports said that Frei was the most MLS-ready player in the draft and was at least as good as half the keepers in the league. Having said that, the same report said that he'd be a top 5 pick - the possibility of him going #1 overall was even mentioned - but something made him slide to 13.

SweetOwnGoal
01-16-2009, 12:34 AM
hey tell me which players you would've picked instead

Why? My abilities to identify MLS talent have nothing to do with Mo's? We're talking about Mo's reputation as a master drafter, a reputation based on a single pick made several years ago.

SweetOwnGoal
01-16-2009, 12:35 AM
He was good enough to be a starter with his last team. You're getting pedantic.

- Scott

James didn't start here last year...that's not pedantic, that's factual.

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 12:36 AM
By all accounts, Frei will challenge for a starting role. One of the pre-draft scouting reports said that Frei was the most MLS-ready player in the draft and was at least as good as half the keepers in the league. Having said that, the same report said that he'd be a top 5 pick - the possibility of him going #1 overall was even mentioned - but something made him slide to 13.

The guy doing the draft liveblog on Ives suggested it might be because they didn't want to "waste" a draft pick on a keeper. Though I must say, I was shocked that Chivas didn't take him.

- Scott

Pachuco
01-16-2009, 12:37 AM
Why? My abilities to identify MLS talent have nothing to do with Mo's? We're talking about Mo's reputation as a master drafter, a reputation based on a single pick made several years ago.

I'm glad that you are so open minded and that you've decided to read all the other posts proving you WRONG about this statement.:rolleyes:

Ossington Mental Youth
01-16-2009, 12:37 AM
By all accounts, Frei will challenge for a starting role. One of the pre-draft scouting reports said that Frei was the most MLS-ready player in the draft and was at least as good as half the keepers in the league. Having said that, the same report said that he'd be a top 5 pick - the possibility of him going #1 overall was even mentioned - but something made him slide to 13.

James was supposedly MLS ready too.
I think Frei has great value than James for sure BUT i still think that we should stick with Sutton and let the juniors prove themselves if theres anyone to learn that you should never put a junior in net immediately itd be LA

Roogsy
01-16-2009, 12:37 AM
As soon as people start mentioning Phelan and Boyens as proof that Mo isn't a good drafter, I essentially tune out.

Good drafters don't have 100% success rates. They probably don't even have 40% success rates. Almost every year for the pastseveral years, Mo has managed to get a good player from the draft. And as Pachuco said, he even drafted up to get Wynne - a move which would have been spat on by SweetOwnGoal, given his current position.

- Scott

Considering players picked ahead of Boyens aren't even playing in MLS...picking Boyens was actually a solid move. I am not sure in what planet Boyens is a bad pick...we ARE talking about the MLS draft here folks. Beyond the top five picks (and even then, it's debateable) you are really picking the bottom of the barrel. So long as they are useable...you've scored big time.

Ossington Mental Youth
01-16-2009, 12:38 AM
useable by someone

ManUtd4ever
01-16-2009, 12:39 AM
mo drafted wynne 1st, and then rebought him once he came to toronto for a second round pick and a partial allocation

mo traded ronnie o'broken for san joses 1st round pick (second overall)

mo traded julius james and an allocation for derosario

mo traded the rights to a guy who was never going to play here for barrett

mo acquired guevara when it was thought he was a total lunatic and would never play in mls again and he's fit in perfectly and loves it here

mo got dichio. nuff said.

mo got ibrahim, a young little kid with tremendous upside for a conditional 2010 draft pick



mo is terrible worst ever run him out of town with pitchforks and torches

:lol: I couldn't agree more...

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 12:41 AM
James didn't start here last year...that's not pedantic, that's factual.

Okay, substitute "Jeff Cunningham" in (when he was in Toronto, anyway). Or any of the awful, awful defenders currently employed in Los Angeles. How about Xavier. He was a starter.

Substitute in any player that is clearly not worth O'Brien White, Cronin, AND Frei. There are a lot of them.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 12:43 AM
Why? My abilities to identify MLS talent have nothing to do with Mo's? We're talking about Mo's reputation as a master drafter, a reputation based on a single pick made several years ago.

Several people here have already pointed out that it isn't based on a single pick. It is based on several picks (consensus #1's or not), as well as trading away picks and drafted players for other assets (such as DeRo and Ibbe)

My initial hypothesis was right. You just don't like Mo.

- Scott

SweetOwnGoal
01-16-2009, 12:45 AM
mo drafted wynne 1st, and then rebought him once he came to toronto for a second round pick and a partial allocation

Mo also traded for Ruiz. How did that turn out (we could probably go back and forth all day on this point.



mo traded ronnie o'broken for san joses 1st round pick (second overall)


Which he just wasted by selecting a non-GA international back-up.



mo traded julius james and an allocation for derosario


Because DeRo asked to be traded. And, he's yet to get him under a new contract.



mo traded the rights to a guy who was never going to play here for barrett


Sure. But what goes around comes around. Time will tell whether he handled the politics of the McBride situation correctly.



mo acquired guevara when it was thought he was a total lunatic and would never play in mls again and he's fit in perfectly and loves it here


In mid-April after sticking a thumb up his ass all off-season.



mo got dichio. nuff said.


Look, I love DD. But, come on...



mo got ibrahim, a young little kid with tremendous upside for a conditional 2010 draft pick


Because he was home sick and specifically asked to be traded to Toronto so he could live with family in the city.



mo is terrible worst ever run him out of town with pitchforks and torches

No, but I'm not sure why he inspires such blind faith over here.

Azerban
01-16-2009, 12:46 AM
no seriously we got the best striker, midfielder, and goalkeeper in the draft

but mo could've done better what a fat lazy scottish fuck

this argument is embarrassing, just look at the poll

SweetOwnGoal
01-16-2009, 12:48 AM
I'm glad that you are so open minded and that you've decided to read all the other posts proving you WRONG about this statement.:rolleyes:

Because you're giving full thought to my points? How, exactly, has Mo's drafting record been proven?

Azerban
01-16-2009, 12:49 AM
oh my god all of your rebuttals are terrible

all of them

even the ruiz one

mein eyes they are bleeding

SweetOwnGoal
01-16-2009, 12:51 AM
Substitute in any player that is clearly not worth O'Brien White, Cronin, AND Frei. There are a lot of them.

- Scott

Not really. Not in 2009 anyway. That's my point. Those guys won't add much of anything next year. And TFC should be fully focused on next year because the circumstances at play give them the best chance at winning that they will have in several years.

SweetOwnGoal
01-16-2009, 12:51 AM
oh my god all of your rebuttals are terrible

all of them

even the ruiz one

mein eyes they are bleeding

Well there ya go. I've been schooled.

SweetOwnGoal
01-16-2009, 12:52 AM
no seriously we got the best striker, midfielder, and goalkeeper in the draft

but mo could've done better what a fat lazy scottish fuck

this argument is embarrassing, just look at the poll

This would be an example of the blind faith.

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 12:56 AM
Not really. Not in 2009 anyway.

So while last year there were all kinds of players not worth our three draft picks, this year is different? All of the bad MLS starters are gone now? How convenient.

By the way, you can throw Ruiz on to my list too.

- Scott

Azerban
01-16-2009, 12:57 AM
Well there ya go. I've been schooled.

no seriously, who would you have picked, how would you have improved any aspect of any of the three drafts we've been around for

you can't criticize a persons actions without having some idea of what the correct thing to do would be, otherwise you're just talking out of your ass

please, enlighten us plebs

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 12:57 AM
Well there ya go. I've been schooled.

You have. Mostly because you're making a habit of ignoring the posts that calmly and soundly rebut your points, and pouncing on the ones that make arguments, or say things you think you can score points on.

- Scott

Azerban
01-16-2009, 12:59 AM
This would be an example of the blind faith.

farthest thing from it, i'm just smart enough to realize when we made out better out of this draft than any other single team

Yohan
01-16-2009, 01:00 AM
Hindsight is 20/20

honestly. you wouldn't have taken a chance at ruiz? given his record in MLS and how little mo gave up for him?

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 01:00 AM
This would be an example of the blind faith.

Saying we made out well in the draft, is not blind faith. I think I'm just about done with this continuous argument, because it's becoming clear that you just hate Mo, and think he's a lousy GM.

- Scott

Flipityflu
01-16-2009, 01:02 AM
we made out better out of this draft than any other single team


i think so to

Cashcleaner
01-16-2009, 01:02 AM
By all accounts, Frei will challenge for a starting role. One of the pre-draft scouting reports said that Frei was the most MLS-ready player in the draft and was at least as good as half the keepers in the league. Having said that, the same report said that he'd be a top 5 pick - the possibility of him going #1 overall was even mentioned - but something made him slide to 13.

I'm not brave enough to come out and make that sort of prediction, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least. I'm not sure how long Sutton has left with his contract with Toronto, but could we possibly see Frie permanently between the posts by 2011? Doesn't seem like a total stretch to me.

Ossington Mental Youth
01-16-2009, 01:03 AM
Hindsight is 20/20

honestly. you wouldn't have taken a chance at ruiz? given his record in MLS and how little mo gave up for him?

yeah i gotta say people tend to forget what we gave to get ruiz whch was two supplemental drafts which dont exist anymore. Yes Mo should have had someone signed to that position earlier in the year BUT since he didnt he got a pretty good deal considering the player and the players history. Its not Mos fault Ruiz is a dick. A fat dick.

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 01:03 AM
I'm not brave enough to come out and make that sort of prediction, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least. I'm not sure how long Sutton has left with his contract with Toronto, but could we possibly see Frie permanently between the posts by 2011? Doesn't seem like a total stretch to me.

Not at all. Give Frei a year or two to learn, and I'm sure he could easily be ready to go. The jump from NCAA to MLS, isn't the same as, say, MLS to EPL, haha.

- Scott

Ossington Mental Youth
01-16-2009, 01:03 AM
I'm not brave enough to come out and make that sort of prediction, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least. I'm not sure how long Sutton has left with his contract with Toronto, but could we possibly see Frie permanently between the posts by 2011? Doesn't seem like a total stretch to me.

yep, unless we sell him by then but i think he'd have to get playing time first to prove himself before making the jump. Even then id say that Sutton has got a few more years worth of playing in him and i think this or next year is his last in his contract (dont quote me on that)

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 01:05 AM
yeah i gotta say people tend to forget what we gave to get ruiz whch was two supplemental drafts which dont exist anymore. Yes Mo should have had someone signed to that position earlier in the year BUT since he didnt he got a pretty good deal considering the player and the players history. Its not Mos fault Ruiz is a dick. A fat dick.

Exactly. Ruiz was a last ditch effort to make the team better, based on Ruiz's track record. He wasn't a calculated move - he was a trade deadline grab, when we essentially had nothing to lose. And we gave absolutely nothing for him.

- Scott

SweetOwnGoal
01-16-2009, 01:15 AM
no seriously, who would you have picked, how would you have improved any aspect of any of the three drafts we've been around for

you can't criticize a persons actions without having some idea of what the correct thing to do would be, otherwise you're just talking out of your ass

please, enlighten us plebs


You're using faulty thinking. We are talking about Mo Johnston's ability to draft players (of which there is actual evidence to evaluate) . We aren't talking about my ability to do so (of which there is no evidence to evaluate). They are entirely different things. They really, really are and if you can't understand that then this conversation is pointless.
You are assuming that my argument is that I could do a better job. It isn't. My argument is that Mo's reputation as a super drafter is overstated. Do you honestly not see the difference?

SweetOwnGoal
01-16-2009, 01:16 AM
You have. Mostly because you're making a habit of ignoring the posts that calmly and soundly rebut your points, and pouncing on the ones that make arguments, or say things you think you can score points on.

- Scott


Point me to the points you'd like to see me speak to because I'm not ignoring anything.

SweetOwnGoal
01-16-2009, 01:18 AM
Hindsight is 20/20

honestly. you wouldn't have taken a chance at ruiz? given his record in MLS and how little mo gave up for him?


Absolutely not. I really wouldn't have, no.

SweetOwnGoal
01-16-2009, 01:20 AM
So while last year there were all kinds of players not worth our three draft picks, this year is different? All of the bad MLS starters are gone now? How convenient.

By the way, you can throw Ruiz on to my list too.

- Scott

I'm not sure I follow your critique here. And Ruiz is out of contract so he's not starting, is he?

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 01:20 AM
Point me to the points you'd like to see me speak to because I'm not ignoring anything.

Go back and find all of the posts you flat out ignored. Simple.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 01:22 AM
I'm not sure I follow your critique here. And Ruiz is out of contract so he's not starting, is he?

Your response to me was essentially "yeah, but that was 2008". As though there won't be any terrible starters in MLS, in 2009.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 01:25 AM
Anyway, no one else seems to be responding to you anymore, so I guess I will bow out too. I've said all I have to say, and it's pretty pointless arguing with someone who is in a minority of one in their position - at least as far as responses in this thread are concerned.

Though it appears you have one other person who agrees with you, according to the poll results.

- Scott

SweetOwnGoal
01-16-2009, 01:32 AM
Saying we made out well in the draft, is not blind faith. I think I'm just about done with this continuous argument, because it's becoming clear that you just hate Mo, and think he's a lousy GM.

- Scott

I don't hate Mo Johnston. I don't agree that he's done a good job of building this team. There is a big difference in those two positions.

Coles notes as to why: I don't think he's given enough attention to the domestic side of things. Instead he's gone to a short term fix of trading for more international spots.

He's consistently failed to bring in players prior to the start of the season, which has directly resulted in TFC dropping points.

He relies on trades far too much. A stupid amount of players have come through te door (and for every good trade there is at least one bad one).

He consistently fails to live up to promises he makes to supporters -- how often did we hear last year that a signing was imminent?

He overpays for European players while failing to bring in significant discoveries from developing countries (which are much cheaper).
He failed to find reinforcements during the summer window last year as we watched the V-Cup and playoffs slip away (Yes, the Huckerby situation was unfortunate, but it’s Mo’s job to find talent. Period).

Barry McLean.
Look, I want to be wrong about Mo. I want to look back in years and realize that I was way off base. But, I’ve followed this league a long time and the way Mo builds a team is not how I understand that you build a championship in MLS.
That said, sign me a CB and I won’t give a rat’s ass about this draft anymore.

Pachuco
01-16-2009, 01:32 AM
Anyway, no one else seems to be responding to you anymore, so I guess I will bow out too. I've said all I have to say, and it's pretty pointless arguing with someone who is in a minority of one in their position - at least as far as responses in this thread are concerned.

Though it appears you have one other person who agrees with you, according to the poll results.

- Scott

I'm willing to bet he logged in under two different accounts to make it go from 1 to 2 ;)

SweetOwnGoal
01-16-2009, 01:33 AM
Your response to me was essentially "yeah, but that was 2008". As though there won't be any terrible starters in MLS, in 2009.

- Scott

No, it wasn't.

SweetOwnGoal
01-16-2009, 01:34 AM
I'm willing to bet he logged in under two different accounts to make it go from 1 to 2 ;)

And RPB group think proves what?

Pachuco
01-16-2009, 01:42 AM
And RPB group think proves what?

Dude, I don't disagree with all your points about Mo. But when it comes to the draft, it's really hard for me to understand how you can possibly think this was a failure. Specially when it's wayyyyy too early to tell. For all you know tommorrow morning you wake up and Cronin and Frei are traded for a proven CB.

All we are saying is Mo has a track record of making these draft picks pan out, and you have absolutely no argument against that. You choose to ignore all the names Mo has drafted and how they have turned out, the 2 names you don't ignore (Edu and Wynne) you decide to argue that they were handed to him, when Mo moved up to actually draft Wynne. And just because Edu was drafted 1st by TFC, doesn't mean another team wouldn't have taken a different player in the draft 1st.

I'm done arguing because at this point, I realize that it's all a waste of time. If these draft picks pan out, I can't see you coming on here and talking about how wrong you were.

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 01:46 AM
Dude, I don't disagree with all your points about Mo. But when it comes to the draft, it's really hard for me to understand how you can possibly think this was a failure. Specially when it's wayyyyy too early to tell. For all you know tommorrow morning you wake up and Cronin and Frei are traded for a proven CB.

All we are saying is Mo has a track record of making these draft picks pan out, and you have absolutely no argument against that. You choose to ignore all the names Mo has drafted and how they have turned out, the 2 names you don't ignore (Edu and Wynne) you decide to argue that they were handed to him, when Mo moved up to actually draft Wynne. And just because Edu was drafted 1st by TFC, doesn't mean another team wouldn't have taken a different player in the draft 1st.

I'm done arguing because at this point, I realize that it's all a waste of time. If these draft picks pan out, I can't see you coming on here and talking about how wrong you were.

And he already said his point of view was predicated on the assumption that we will be keeping all three players. Which isn't necessarily a proper assumption to start off on in the first place.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 01:47 AM
Not really. Not in 2009 anyway. That's my point.

Yes, it was.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 01:48 AM
And RPB group think proves what?

Ahh, so when most of us happen to agree on something, it's just "RPB groupthink" now?

- Scott

SweetOwnGoal
01-16-2009, 01:48 AM
Dude, I don't disagree with all your points about Mo. But when it comes to the draft, it's really hard for me to understand how you can possibly think this was a failure. Specially when it's wayyyyy too early to tell. For all you know tommorrow morning you wake up and Cronin and Frei are traded for a proven CB.

All we are saying is Mo has a track record of making these draft picks pan out, and you have absolutely no argument against that. You choose to ignore all the names Mo has drafted and how they have turned out, the 2 names you don't ignore (Edu and Wynne) you decide to argue that they were handed to him, when Mo moved up to actually draft Wynne. And just because Edu was drafted 1st by TFC, doesn't mean another team wouldn't have taken a different player in the draft 1st.

I'm done arguing because at this point, I realize that it's all a waste of time. If these draft picks pan out, I can't see you coming on here and talking about how wrong you were.

I totally admit when I'm wrong. I'm not going to argue, but I am going to clarify something.

My original position was that if all we get from this draft are these three players then I view it as a failure to improve the team for 2009. I stand by that. I welcome being proven wrong on the pitch. I especially welcome two of those picks being traded for a proven CB.

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 01:49 AM
I will agree with you on ONE thing. We DO need a CB, and while I don't care how we get one - we better get one.

- Scott

Ossington Mental Youth
01-16-2009, 01:49 AM
at least one

SweetOwnGoal
01-16-2009, 01:49 AM
Ahh, so when most of us happen to agree on something, it's just "RPB groupthink" now?

- Scott

When it comes to Mo...there has always been some RPB group think. It's changing a bit, but...

Pachuco
01-16-2009, 01:50 AM
I totally admit when I'm wrong. I'm not going to argue, but I am going to clarify something.

My original position was that if all we get from this draft are these three players then I view it as a failure to improve the team for 2009. I stand by that. I welcome being proven wrong on the pitch. I especially welcome two of those picks being traded for a proven CB.

So your entire argument is all based on an assumption. let me ask you this, what if we trade players like Dunivant, Edwards, Sutton, Ricketts, Smith, whoever else you want to put on that list. Now these trades would be made possible because Mo drafted 3 players he was very comfortable could back fill for these guys, would the draft still be a failure?

Ossington Mental Youth
01-16-2009, 01:51 AM
And what about us that arent RPB but still dont have a prob with the majority of what Mo does?

SweetOwnGoal
01-16-2009, 01:52 AM
Yes, it was.

- Scott

You misunderstood that post. I was saying that there was a time when the draft had more use (like 2001ish), but that time has passed. I wasn't comparing 2009 and 2008, which you seem to be suggesting.

Pachuco
01-16-2009, 01:52 AM
When it comes to Mo...there has always been some RPB group think. It's changing a bit, but...

I'm an RPB, and I'm openly not a fan of Carver, so it would be hard to accuse me of sticking with what the group thinks.

SweetOwnGoal
01-16-2009, 01:55 AM
So your entire argument is all based on an assumption. let me ask you this, what if we trade players like Dunivant, Edwards, Sutton, Ricketts, Smith, whoever else you want to put on that list. Now these trades would be made possible because Mo drafted 3 players he was very comfortable could back fill for these guys, would the draft still be a failure?

In my opinion most posters in this thread were suggesting that the draft was a success even if nothing further came of it. In my OP I argued against that. I understand that they may still trade these players. I welcome it. It's my position that it should happen.

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 01:56 AM
You misunderstood that post. I was saying that there was a time when the draft had more use (like 2001ish), but that time has passed. I wasn't comparing 2009 and 2008, which you seem to be suggesting.

So then, what you were saying, is that between 2008 and 2009, the draft became useless?

- Scott

Pachuco
01-16-2009, 01:57 AM
In my opinion most posters in this thread were suggesting that the draft was a success even if nothing further came of it. In my OP I argued against that. I understand that they may still trade these players. I welcome it. It's my position that it should happen.

But you didn't answer my question, what if we trade current players on the team because Mo feels comfortable the draftees can back fill. What would be your position there?

SweetOwnGoal
01-16-2009, 02:00 AM
And what about us that arent RPB but still dont have a prob with the majority of what Mo does?

I think some might realize that I'm a fairly well known U-Sector so I'm going to just apologize for making that snide remark and move on...

There is group think everywhere. It's not a quality unique to RPB.

As a general rule it's been my experience that there are more fans of Mo here then over with us cynical fools that hang out at The Dufferin Gate pre-game. That's all. So, again, sorry. Group think was dirty pool. My apologizes.

tfctillidie
01-16-2009, 02:00 AM
I got no complains with the selection, also I'm happy for my friend Kyle Hall...best striker that came from my high school!... lovin it...DeRo is home and now Kyle

SweetOwnGoal
01-16-2009, 02:02 AM
So then, what you were saying, is that between 2008 and 2009, the draft became useless?

- Scott
Are you even trying to read what I'm writing now?

SweetOwnGoal
01-16-2009, 02:04 AM
But you didn't answer my question, what if we trade current players on the team because Mo feels comfortable the draftees can back fill. What would be your position there?

That he better be right.

I have serious doubts that we are dealing with starters here. I look forward to being wrong..

Pachuco
01-16-2009, 02:09 AM
That he better be right.

I have serious doubts that we are dealing with starters here. I look forward to being wrong..

Well I didn't say starters necessarily. I was referring to something like the following scenario:

1. Gets Serioux from Dallas for Edwards + Allocation Money + 1st round pick next year. (this trade is made possible because Frei was drafted)

I don't even know if Dallas needs a keeper, and I'm also sure there are more scenarios that fit in to what I'm getting at without trading away the core group of guys.

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 02:09 AM
Are you even trying to read what I'm writing now?

I'm still going off of my post that you originally responded to with your "Not in 2009" comment.

I listed a bunch of horrible players that were starters in 2008, and your response was essentially "yeah, but that waas 2008". Your insinuation was that there may have been players that weren't worth the combination of Frei, White, and Cronin in 2008, but not in 2009.

Now you've shifted that point to say that while the draft was useful 2001, it isn't now. When did this shift to uselessness happen?

My point has been that the MLS draft has produced a handful of pretty good prospects every year, and myself and others even named some previous names to boot (Wynne, Ibbe, and Edu, for example, all played under our roof - and that is SINCE 2001).

The MLS draft has become secondary to signing international players these days, but it is far from useless.

- Scott

Cashcleaner
01-16-2009, 04:52 AM
When it comes to Mo...there has always been some RPB group think. It's changing a bit, but...

Wow! Really? I mean I know you've apologized for the remark and everything, but you actually think we're all in agreement with Mo and his record with TFC?

Dude, trust me when I say that pro-Mo and anti-Mo arguments are likely our most divisive talking points. I can't say for certain, but I think the field is pretty even between groups here that want him to stay or want him to go.

For the record, I'm no longer a fan of Johnston primarily because I think Carver could be doing a better job without him. That's just me. I'm sure you'll find all sorts of people here who are in agreement with that comment and those who are not.

Ossington Mental Youth
01-16-2009, 05:37 AM
I dont know that Carver would have the connections to players in NA that Mo does

Keystone FC
01-16-2009, 06:10 AM
I like what Mo did in the draft, even though I was hoping for more CB's than strikers, BUT Mo has once again put TFC in a good postion either way. We will have a young front line mixing in with vets that could create a potent strike force or we have very good trade material to get players that will fit our needs. Looking at the draft now I truely believe Mo did a good job.

Mark in Ottawa
01-16-2009, 07:11 AM
I believe that Mo drafted the best players available after listening to various trade offers from other teams. He admitted to Nigel Reed on the Fan590 Soccer Show that there were trade offers but they were too rich for his liking.

In the end... once the team gels, starts winning and rides any injury problems with the depth they are building we will stop second guessing Mo and JC about their player selections and movements.

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 07:12 AM
I like what Mo did in the draft, even though I was hoping for more CB's than strikers, BUT Mo has once again put TFC in a good postion either way. We will have a young front line mixing in with vets that could create a potent strike force or we have very good trade material to get players that will fit our needs. Looking at the draft now I truely believe Mo did a good job.


The only CB worth a good look was Omar Gonzalez, and even then - I'd sooner have a veteran CB we can use right away.

- Scott

trane
01-16-2009, 08:39 AM
I am a fence sitter on this, simply because I simply do not see college players as anything more then prospects. At best I would equate them to strong senior academy players with potential. You just cannot tell their true potential untill they start playing with the pros.

Steve
01-16-2009, 08:41 AM
The only CB worth a good look was Omar Gonzalez, and even then - I'd sooner have a veteran CB we can use right away.

- Scott

Exactly. Everyone upset that Mo didn't draft a CB has to step back for a second. Drafts usually aren't about what we need now, but what we will need in a year or two. We tried to slot a first round CB into our lineup right away last year, look how that turned out. We obviously need veteren help at CB now, not a rookie. Once we get a strong vet in there, we can start drafting prospects for him to train.

Oldtimer
01-16-2009, 08:51 AM
I'm overall pleased with the draft. While the draft won't answer any teams short-term needs, i expect that Mo's picks will prove to be among the best.

The fact that Ives says that Mo "won" the draft means something, too. It's hard to pick a better analyst than Ives.

As far as "group think" goes, I've posted the same poll on U-Sector's board. I expect it to be more negative, but will probably still have a majority in favour of what Mo has done.

CoachGT
01-16-2009, 08:55 AM
I'm okay with the draft and hopeful that the players selected will prove to be solid professionals. Mo's track record on drafting has been pretty solid (Wynne, Edu and Altidore) on players who have become good professionals, so his picks seem pretty reasonable.

SQUIRREL
01-16-2009, 09:00 AM
I'm mixed. I think Mo picked some good young players and I hope they do well, all have gotten great reviews so I'm excited to see them, but the draft didn't go the way I expected. We still haven't improved our defence. Good luck to the new members of TFC, but I'm mixed on the draft decisions hopefully it works out.

Beach_Red
01-16-2009, 09:10 AM
The excpectations for the draft were very low - as people said, this isn't the NFL or NBA or even the MLS of eight years ago.

I can't imagine any other team giving up a valuable player for draft picks in a useless draft, so I'm not surprised there were no trades. I'm glad TFC didn't give up anyone now.

Shaughno
01-16-2009, 09:14 AM
I am a fence sitter on this, simply because I simply do not see college players as anything more then prospects. At best I would equate them to strong senior academy players with potential. You just cannot tell their true potential untill they start playing with the pros.


It's very true, but if we do end up keeping Frei I'm 99% sure he will warrant some serious Edu-like money in a couple years. He's been seriously hyped as a major talent the past few years and the States seems to be able to pump out good quality keepers at a decent rate.

David_Oliveira
01-16-2009, 09:18 AM
If we had a reserve team, this would have been awesome. Three great talents but where can they develop? The bench? Mo did the best he could.

Look on the bright side. We now have a great goalie prospect to challange for a first spot, a good striker to challenge the ones we have now (but if we do get this South American striker that is 90% confirmed, I can't see him playing), and possibly a replacement for when robbo-cop decides to call it quits. Everyone complains about the lack of depth in our squad. Mo has just gotten three quality players (from what everyone is saying) to help out.

poppamidnight
01-16-2009, 09:23 AM
no im downright pissed off we passed up Gonzalez.
If Gonz went #1 then i wouldnt be so pissed, but PASSING HIM UP???

come on, thats downright silly...

it's like in a fantasy sports draft:

-Taking Jason Kidd when Chris Paul is still on the board
-Taking Brian Westbrook when Adrian Peterson is still on the board
-Taking Joe Thornton when Alex Ovechkin was still on the board
-Taking Ian Kinsler when Hanley Ramirez is still on the board

Downright stupidity if u ask me....

it's like taking a $10 bill for your $20 bill.....

short-changing yourself? c'mon people... WAKE UP!!!
95 of you are stupid enough to say your happy with this?

What? have we all been hitting the bottle since 6 this morning and we have beer-googles for these draft results?!?!

My fellow RPB, i thought we as a whole were smarter than this,
afterall we pride ourselves in not being like those drones of leaf nation....

...but 95 of you let me down today, and im sad to be affiliated w/ such simpletons

.J.B.
01-16-2009, 09:38 AM
no im downright pissed off we passed up Gonzalez.
If Gonz went #1 then i wouldnt be so pissed, but PASSING HIM UP???

come on, thats downright silly...

it's like in a fantasy sports draft:

-Taking Jason Kidd when Chris Paul is still on the board
-Taking Brian Westbrook when Adrian Peterson is still on the board
-Taking Joe Thornton when Alex Ovechkin was still on the board
-Taking Ian Kinsler when Hanley Ramirez is still on the board

Downright stupidity if u ask me....

it's like taking a $10 bill for your $20 bill.....

short-changing yourself? c'mon people... WAKE UP!!!
95 of you are stupid enough to say your happy with this?

What? have we all been hitting the bottle since 6 this morning and we have beer-googles for these draft results?!?!

My fellow RPB, i thought we as a whole were smarter than this,
afterall we pride ourselves in not being like those drones of leaf nation....

...but 95 of you let me down today, and im sad to be affiliated w/ such simpletons

I'm Sorry!!!! Please don't leave us

flatpicker
01-16-2009, 09:39 AM
^^ dang!


I will repeat what I said earlier...
It really is impossible to accurately judge how this draft went.
How can anyone predict if these guys will work out for the club?
All we can do is wait and see; pass judgment after they have taken the pitch.

So we should all just relax and go back to guessing whether or not Mo will get a DP or some such thing.

Nuvinho
01-16-2009, 09:40 AM
I love your comparisons, vetrans who have been in the league long and have contributed immensely to their respective sport, compared to younger players on the rise.

Why not compare AO to Malkin, Crosby??

Daveisonfire
01-16-2009, 09:42 AM
no im downright pissed off we passed up Gonzalez.
If Gonz went #1 then i wouldnt be so pissed, but PASSING HIM UP???

come on, thats downright silly...

it's like in a fantasy sports draft:

-Taking Jason Kidd when Chris Paul is still on the board
-Taking Brian Westbrook when Adrian Peterson is still on the board
-Taking Joe Thornton when Alex Ovechkin was still on the board
-Taking Ian Kinsler when Hanley Ramirez is still on the board

Downright stupidity if u ask me....

it's like taking a $10 bill for your $20 bill.....

short-changing yourself? c'mon people... WAKE UP!!!
95 of you are stupid enough to say your happy with this?

What? have we all been hitting the bottle since 6 this morning and we have beer-googles for these draft results?!?!

My fellow RPB, i thought we as a whole were smarter than this,
afterall we pride ourselves in not being like those drones of leaf nation....

...but 95 of you let me down today, and im sad to be affiliated w/ such simpletons

Ives had Cronin and Frei going ahead of Gonzalez in his final mock draft...what a simpleton!!!:mad:

Flipityflu
01-16-2009, 09:43 AM
no im downright pissed off we passed up Gonzalez.
If Gonz went #1 then i wouldnt be so pissed, but PASSING HIM UP???

come on, thats downright silly...

it's like in a fantasy sports draft:

-Taking Jason Kidd when Chris Paul is still on the board
-Taking Brian Westbrook when Adrian Peterson is still on the board
-Taking Joe Thornton when Alex Ovechkin was still on the board
-Taking Ian Kinsler when Hanley Ramirez is still on the board

Downright stupidity if u ask me....

it's like taking a $10 bill for your $20 bill.....

short-changing yourself? c'mon people... WAKE UP!!!
95 of you are stupid enough to say your happy with this?

What? have we all been hitting the bottle since 6 this morning and we have beer-googles for these draft results?!?!

My fellow RPB, i thought we as a whole were smarter than this,
afterall we pride ourselves in not being like those drones of leaf nation....

...but 95 of you let me down today, and im sad to be affiliated w/ such simpletons


maybe the descision was made because we don't want another unseasoned defender on the roster? perhaps the plan is to have 2 experience CB's in our defence come the start of the season? just because we have concerns in defence doesn't mean we have to use the draft to fill it. didn't work out to well last season did it?

rocker
01-16-2009, 09:43 AM
When it comes to Mo...there has always been some RPB group think.

ya, usually it's been: "MO SUCKS!!! KILL MO!!!!" and now people are starting to change their minds on that.

I've been on this board since the beginning and from partway through the first season to the middle of the last, the "groupthink" on this board has been that Mo Johnston sucks.

Fort York Redcoat
01-16-2009, 09:54 AM
You do NOT build MLS teams through the draft. This is not the NHL. Prospects are next to useless for TFC in '09. Unless he moves one of these guys for an established player before the season starts this was an unqualified disaster -- an absolute worst case scenario.

The only thing I'll give Mo a pass on here is that I'm guessing that he wasn't being offered much of anything for the picks. Which begs the question of why he collected so many of them in the first place, doesn’t it?
We still need a CB. We still need a forward that will contribute in '09 (White will be cover, at best). We are no closer to fixing those problems today and we now have one less way to try and get the help. Without help in those areas, get ready for another dance in the 13th-7th range. That's not good enough anymore.

SOG, you know Mo has the rep as a draftday busybody regardless of how you think he's fared. This is bound to affect other team's opinion of dealing with him. It's likely the deals didn't come to pass ( I agree btw we needed a deal ) because teams thought they might be the next to get hosed.

jabbronies
01-16-2009, 09:55 AM
I think Sutton's job is safe. I do think that Edwards may be on the block though. His work ethic was called into question far too often last season. Frei could be battling Edwards for the #2 position.

Luanda
01-16-2009, 09:55 AM
I agree with you but I'm still a little enraged by the negativity around this board. It seems for every move there seems to be 1 person positive about and 3 negative. No we won't know exactly how these players pan out until we see them play nor will we know if they are on the trading block (which i doubt) but it would be nice to see some excitement around here for hte new season everyone once in awhile.

Yup, way too much negativity here. If everyone is so knowledgeable about fotty, what TFC needs or does not need, and how good or not drafted players are, how come they are not in the shoes of MoJo or Carver?

Drafted players are players with potential. Some will materialize that potential --many will not and disappear into oblivion. MoJo and his team have made their selections -- let us wait and see who will develop well and stay with the team, get traded, or sold [to Europe?], and who will vanish into thin air.

Roogsy
01-16-2009, 09:57 AM
Wow! Really? I mean I know you've apologized for the remark and everything, but you actually think we're all in agreement with Mo and his record with TFC?

Dude, trust me when I say that pro-Mo and anti-Mo arguments are likely our most divisive talking points. I can't say for certain, but I think the field is pretty even between groups here that want him to stay or want him to go.


I'd have to agree with this. There is no bias in RPB pro or against Mo...there are loud voices in both camps. What tends to happen is when someone wants to take a shot at RPB...it conveniently uses one side to provide a basis for that statement, completely ignoring the other. It's pretty routine around here at this point.

Fort York Redcoat
01-16-2009, 10:00 AM
Yup, way too much negativity here. If everyone is so knowledgeable about fotty, what TFC needs or does not need, and how good or not drafted players are, how come they are not in the shoes of MoJo or Carver?

Drafted players are players with potential. Some will materialize that potential --many will not and disappear into oblivion. MoJo and his team have made their selections -- let us wait and see who will develop well and stay with the team, get traded, or sold [to Europe?], and who will vanish into thin air.


opps.;) I love this term. I want it used any time there's negativity on the board.

The bitching about the draft is way better than what comes out of the draft anyway.:D

Nomad
01-16-2009, 10:01 AM
ya, usually it's been: "MO SUCKS!!! KILL MO!!!!" and now people are starting to change their minds on that.

I've been on this board since the beginning and from partway through the first season to the middle of the last, the "groupthink" on this board has been that Mo Johnston sucks.

Are you sure about that because this thread says otherwise:

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=126


That thread was posted on all three main supporter group boards.

Consensus: RPB = Pro Mo, U-Sector = On the fence, NEE = Anti Mo

Shaughno
01-16-2009, 10:04 AM
no im downright pissed off we passed up Gonzalez.
If Gonz went #1 then i wouldnt be so pissed, but PASSING HIM UP???

come on, thats downright silly...



I removed the useless blabber to comment on the only point worth discussing.

Sure we could have taken Gonzalez, but what happens if he turns out to be Julius James v2.0?

Frei and White have been seriously hyped for two years because of their talents, one happens to count as a domestic and the other one (if we can keep him) will command Edu like money when he goes.

Tell me, why take a highly rated yet untested Int'l defender who might start here and there, instead of picking up solid players with a future and building a proper backline?

I don't think White will get much if any time this year, that's definitely for the future. From what I've heard, Frei could quite possibly become our #1 keeper in no time at all.

Or... you know, we could have missed out on both Frei and White and taken a tall CB who was rated highly, but doesn't have the same potential.

Detroit_TFC
01-16-2009, 10:05 AM
The players picked are pretty good based on their college record. But draftees are a two year project minimum, if they make it that far. I doubt any of these guys will be still be at TFC beginning of 2011 season, between trades, expansion drafts, etc. Because of that, it's hard to get too bend out of shape about one pick vs another.

Stouffville_RPB
01-16-2009, 10:06 AM
no im downright pissed off we passed up Gonzalez.
If Gonz went #1 then i wouldnt be so pissed, but PASSING HIM UP???

come on, thats downright silly...

it's like in a fantasy sports draft:

-Taking Jason Kidd when Chris Paul is still on the board
-Taking Brian Westbrook when Adrian Peterson is still on the board
-Taking Joe Thornton when Alex Ovechkin was still on the board
-Taking Ian Kinsler when Hanley Ramirez is still on the board

Downright stupidity if u ask me....

it's like taking a $10 bill for your $20 bill.....

short-changing yourself? c'mon people... WAKE UP!!!
95 of you are stupid enough to say your happy with this?

What? have we all been hitting the bottle since 6 this morning and we have beer-googles for these draft results?!?!

My fellow RPB, i thought we as a whole were smarter than this,
afterall we pride ourselves in not being like those drones of leaf nation....

...but 95 of you let me down today, and im sad to be affiliated w/ such simpletons


Wait to see what happens with these players before you go off. What if we turn Cronin into Serioux? What if Cronin becomes the successor to Robbo in 2 years?

I'm not thrilled with the selection of Cronin over Gonzalez but if you look at the 3 players that we got in the first round I'm satisfied.

Have a little faith in Mo. Say what you want about him but he does have an eye for talent.

Shaughno
01-16-2009, 10:07 AM
I'd have to agree with this. There is no bias in RPB pro or against Mo...there are loud voices in both camps. What tends to happen is when someone wants to take a shot at RPB...it conveniently uses one side to provide a basis for that statement, completely ignoring the other. It's pretty routine around here at this point.

Nah, I'd say for the most part he's right. RPB is more pro-mo, Usec is changing but used to be mostly against-mo.

S_D
01-16-2009, 10:08 AM
ya, usually it's been: "MO SUCKS!!! KILL MO!!!!" and now people are starting to change their minds on that.

I've been on this board since the beginning and from partway through the first season to the middle of the last, the "groupthink" on this board has been that Mo Johnston sucks.

lol so true. There have though always been a few of us that have said give him time. We tend to get drowned out though :D

I think people have to look at the draft as a means for adding depth to the team and nothing more than that. If you get a player that actually pans out and becomes a first teamer, as far as I am concerned the team lucked out.

If a player disappoints, then he can be replaced at the following years draft or traded for cash or another player. (Boyens, James, Phelan)

Lets face it, with the low salary cap, we need the draft as argueably (with the majority of teams) once you go past the starting team and perhaps 2 or 3 subs, the teams become quite weak.

Overall I am satisfied with the draft even though I don't know too much about the players beyond what the journalists such as Ives have said about them. Both White and Cronin sound like the real deal but that is TBD. How about we give them a chance.

I have no problem carrying 3 keepers because if 1 goes down or gets called up to serve on an NT we will actually have a backup and not have to go begging to the MLS for a pool keeper that no team wants on their roster.

With WCQ, NT camps and the Gold Cup on the schedule this season, I wouldn't be surprised if Edwards gets the call to at least be a depth player on the USMNT at some point, and Sutton could be at the Gold Cup.

I would be very nervous with a pool keeper as depth wouldn't you?

Lucky Strike
01-16-2009, 10:08 AM
Only have read the first two pages of this but:

- Yes, I do believe Mo has done well.

- No, the draft is not like the NHL where you have a good chance of picking up what will be the league's best player, BUT, it can certainly be useful. If you argue the draft is not a great way to build, that's fine but keep in mind that 60% of our picks were first-rounders. If the draft doesn't have much talent, well at least Mo focused on the first round where the better players are.

- No trade made? No problem. If there isn't an advantageous deal for TFC, then why would Mo make the deal?

- Yes, we could have traded our picks for established players who can help "now". Or, as I prefer, use those picks and sign the established players we need from outside the MLS. That way, we're assured of a net relative increase (as opposed to an absolute increase, but where both teams may have gotten better, but maybe the other team got more better than TFC did) in talent, something which a trade does not always guarantee.

- Finally, doesn't it concern anyone that the poll shows overwhelming support for Mo (82% to 3% as of this writing - with the rest being fence-sitters), yet there is a distinct sense of negativity here? Those who are happy drop a line saying so, while the few that are unhappy bitch and moan for pages and think the rest of us are idiots for not seeing what they see. And when you call out those people, the standard response is that they "care about the team and want to see it do well". Yes that's good but remember we all want that, and deep down, it's just a way for the debbie downers to excuse their rude behaviour (I'm speaking generally now, not necessarily about the opinion on the draft). And last of lastly, does anyone remember the debbie downers claiming there was some sort of secret clique that toes the franchise line and suffocate dissent? I sure do, and I've tried to be polite so far in my rant, but those who actually believe that, can go get shit on by an elephant.

Roogsy
01-16-2009, 10:08 AM
Are you sure about that because this thread says otherwise:

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=126


That thread was posted on all three main supporter group boards.

Consensus: RPB = Pro Mo, U-Sector = On the fence, NEE = Anti Mo


This site also has the largest number of non-affiliated participants, how do you account for their numbers? Easy...you don't. It's overlooked. The poll says nothing of "RPB" mentality. In fact, I would argue it reflects a broader picture of all TFC fans as most of the discussion on this board does. Why do people not seem to understand that MOST of the participants on this board are not RPB? Pay attention people!

Shaughno
01-16-2009, 10:10 AM
This site also has the largest non-affiliated, how do you account for their numbers? Easy...you don't. It's overlooked. The poll says nothing of "RPB" mentality. In fact, I would argue it reflects a broader picture of all TFC fans as most of the discussion on this board does. Why do people not seem to understand that MOST of the participants on this board are not RPB? Pay attention people!


Basing my judgement strictly off actual RPB's opinions that have been posted, I'd say the majority are Pro-Mo.

Not that it fucking matters, but is there something wrong with that?

S_D
01-16-2009, 10:11 AM
Nah, I'd say for the most part he's right. RPB is more pro-mo, Usec is changing but used to be mostly against-mo.

I always thought that there were a lot more Mo haters here. I guess it is just a matter of perspective. Perhaps the Mo haters just yell out louder and it seems that way :D

Shaughno
01-16-2009, 10:12 AM
I always thought that there were a lot more Mo haters here. I guess it is just a matter of perspective. Perhaps the Mo haters just yell out louder and it seems that way :D


They definitely do yell loud, but most I've noticed don't tend to have 'RPB Member' under their name. ;)

Roogsy
01-16-2009, 10:14 AM
Basing my judgement strictly off actual RPB's opinions that have been posted, I'd say the majority are Pro-Mo.

Probably...but likely not as overwhelmingly in favour of Mo as the poll shows.


Not that it fucking matters, but is there something wrong with that?

Not at all. Although I have my problems with Mo, I consider myself in the pro-Mo camp for now. But he is on a short-leash with me. I need to see results before the season starts on the signing front for him to continue in my good graces. Yes, yes...I am sure he is shaking in his boots. LOL!

Nomad
01-16-2009, 10:15 AM
This site also has the largest non-affiliated, how do you account for their numbers? Easy...you don't. It's overlooked. The poll says nothing of "RPB" mentality. In fact, I would argue it reflects a broader picture of all TFC fans as most of the discussion on this board does. Why do people not seem to understand that MOST of the participants on this board are not RPB? Pay attention people!

If the numbers were a bit closer i could see that, but the overwhelming majority voted pro-Mo. I would also guess that many anti-MO from both U-Sector and NEE also voted in this poll. If you even take time to re-read Mo oriented threads the vast majority of paid RPB members are pro-Mo.



On a related note, i look at many non paid members as RPB and i also see a lot of paid RPB members as not really being members at all. But that's really a whole other conversation.

Beach_Red
01-16-2009, 10:20 AM
Are you sure about that because this thread says otherwise:

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=126


That thread was posted on all three main supporter group boards.

Consensus: RPB = Pro Mo, U-Sector = On the fence, NEE = Anti Mo


Sometimes this board seems very anti-MLS, is that any different on the other ones? Has there ever been a poll about that?

A lot of the complaints really have more to do with the league rules than how well TFC manipultes those rules.

And some people just flat out don't like MLS.

olegunnar
01-16-2009, 10:24 AM
ya, usually it's been: "MO SUCKS!!! KILL MO!!!!" and now people are starting to change their minds on that.

I've been on this board since the beginning and from partway through the first season to the middle of the last, the "groupthink" on this board has been that Mo Johnston sucks.

RPB has been a Mo love in.

Then Carver came along and forced people to choose. Only then did RPB swing a bit away from Mo, trader Mo, trust Mo blah blah blah.

So I think teh Mo sucks stuff started when Carver made people choose.

Even still, when the Mo stories are brought to the board by other groups they get shot down really really fast.

Beach_Red
01-16-2009, 10:29 AM
So I think teh Mo sucks stuff started when Carver made people choose.


I'm just glad Carver and Mo work together well. Last night when Nigel asked Mo about the draft picks getting into the starting line-up Mo said, "Not my job."

ensco
01-16-2009, 11:00 AM
How can anyone be anything other than a fence sitter at this point?

Seriously, how many people on here know anything AT ALL about NCAA soccer?

If Frei doesn't slip to us, this poll would be 75% negative. And that was TOTALLY out of TFC control.

Shaughno
01-16-2009, 11:03 AM
How can anyone be anything other than a fence sitter at this point?

Seriously, how many people on here know anything AT ALL about NCAA soccer?

I don't claim to know much, but I try to follow 'prospects' through friends who are scattered around the NCAA sports themselves.

Frei and White have been hugely hyped for some time now. Frei moreso than any one player in recent times. That's what I hear anyway.

Outside of that, you're right it's pretty much a crapshoot of picking someone else's scouting and running with it.

Pachuco
01-16-2009, 11:11 AM
no im downright pissed off we passed up Gonzalez.
If Gonz went #1 then i wouldnt be so pissed, but PASSING HIM UP???

come on, thats downright silly...

it's like in a fantasy sports draft:

-Taking Jason Kidd when Chris Paul is still on the board
-Taking Brian Westbrook when Adrian Peterson is still on the board
-Taking Joe Thornton when Alex Ovechkin was still on the board
-Taking Ian Kinsler when Hanley Ramirez is still on the board

Downright stupidity if u ask me....

it's like taking a $10 bill for your $20 bill.....

short-changing yourself? c'mon people... WAKE UP!!!
95 of you are stupid enough to say your happy with this?

What? have we all been hitting the bottle since 6 this morning and we have beer-googles for these draft results?!?!

My fellow RPB, i thought we as a whole were smarter than this,
afterall we pride ourselves in not being like those drones of leaf nation....

...but 95 of you let me down today, and im sad to be affiliated w/ such simpletons

Honestly I have one very simple question for you. Have you ever seen Gonzales play? Because you sure as hell are talking like someone who analyzed these players for months before the draft. Were you at the combine?

The reviews on Gonzales where mixed, I heard everything from "He's slow and sluggish, he'll get eaten alive in the MLS" to "He's the best defender availalbe and he's MLS ready". So unless you actually saw this guy play, how the hell could you make a stupid statement like "Gonzales is better then Cronin" based on mixed reviews?

Wake up buddy, it's very likely Mo didn't rate Gonzales very high, and guess what? who the hell do you think we should have faith in? Some random poster on a forum or Mo?

Stryker
01-16-2009, 11:39 AM
Very happy with Mos picks.
I would however like to see him trade a goalie with "european potential" for a forward with "european potential".
Sutts does a decent job and I believe that Edwards has a very strong future.

JonO
01-16-2009, 12:12 PM
If Frei doesn't slip to us, this poll would be 75% negative. And that was TOTALLY out of TFC control.
Ahh the joys of a draft. The fact that we took White at 4 and Frei at 13 proves to me that Mo is either one lucky bastard or knows how to read a draft... We can all sit here and talk about "if". The thing is that we weren't there and they got everyone they were after. To me - that's a success. How it works out in the end is something completely different.

AL-MO
01-16-2009, 12:39 PM
On a related note, i look at many non paid members as RPB and i also see a lot of paid RPB members as not really being members at all. But that's really a whole other conversation.

Fuck off back to the NEE board.

Pachuco
01-16-2009, 12:44 PM
Fuck off back to the NEE board.

Hmm...why the hostility? I don't think he said anything that was far from the truth?

Miko
01-16-2009, 12:52 PM
According to Buzz Carrick's rankings we got the top 4 players in the draft.

Seems like it may be worth it to wait and see how they turn out.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=609358&sec=mls&root=mls&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos1&cc=5901

Oldtimer
01-16-2009, 01:00 PM
U-Sector poll currently shows only 6 unhappy, with a majority being happy, and 28% on the fence (about what I expected).

So... it's not just "RPB groupthink" (as was accused earlier), most supporters are either happy or taking a wait and see attitude.

SO... a majority of TFC supporters think we did well,
AND Ives and other commentators said we did very well...

So let's take a collective breather, not regret that we didn't draft the "next Rooney," and see what further deals Mo has coming down the pike.

Yohan
01-16-2009, 01:12 PM
lol@all the group politics shenanigans

like why does that matter. really

trane
01-16-2009, 01:20 PM
It's very true, but if we do end up keeping Frei I'm 99% sure he will warrant some serious Edu-like money in a couple years. He's been seriously hyped as a major talent the past few years and the States seems to be able to pump out good quality keepers at a decent rate.

That is exactly what I thought , Mo was thinking it taking 3, even if one turns up to be a serious prospect there can be some serious money for TFC to build int, not Kaka money, but Edu money. I do not know much about Frei , but I trust you if you think he is the guy that will most likely develop.

Bluenose13
01-16-2009, 01:27 PM
lol@all the group politics shenanigans

like why does that matter. reallyExactly !

ensco
01-16-2009, 03:04 PM
I don't claim to know much, but I try to follow 'prospects' through friends who are scattered around the NCAA sports themselves.

Frei and White have been hugely hyped for some time now. Frei moreso than any one player in recent times. That's what I hear anyway.

Outside of that, you're right it's pretty much a crapshoot of picking someone else's scouting and running with it.

OK I respect that. There are obviously some exceptions.

But most people here are "happy" because Alexi Lalas, the worst GM in MLS history, seemed to like our picks. They don't have an opinion based on much other than that.

Yohan
01-16-2009, 03:06 PM
OK I respect that. There are obviously some exceptions.

But most people here are "happy" because Alexi Lalas, the worst GM in MLS history, seemed to like our picks. They don't have an opinion based on much other than that.
and Ives...

alexintoronto
01-16-2009, 03:10 PM
And him... as posted above

Top 20 prospects
1. Mike Grella, F, Duke -- With Tracy out of the mix, Grella is the best striker available but is also a risk since he's considering Europe. He has gifted feet and he moves to make space and score goals all on his own. He's a player who can score from anywhere and is also capable of mixing it up in the box.
2. Stefan Frei, GK, California -- Frei is clearly the best keeper and is being compared to Brad Guzan by some even though he's older coming out of school. If he's even close to Guzan's ability, he's an MLS starter and could be bound for Europe in three or four years. Frei is Swiss by birth but attended high school in the U.S.
3. Sam Cronin, M, Wake Forest -- The best midfielder available and the most-ready-to-start field player. He's smooth, aware, and confident, a team leader and tactical dictator of pace and flow. I'd like to see a bit more bite in the tackle, but a quality deep-lying midfielder.


4. O'Brian White, F, Connecticut -- Without the ACL injury he'd be No. 1 on this list. Fast and strong, he has so much talent that someone will risk a pick on him early in the draft. He's a Jamaican international but has Canadian residency. It may take a year for him to be ready to seriously contribute. Even though he's injured, he'll still go in the first round.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=609358&sec=mls&root=mls&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos1&cc=5901

supernothingman
01-16-2009, 03:33 PM
Grella's on trial with Leeds.

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 04:27 PM
I think it's funny that this thread has started to degenerate into identity politics of which supporters group is the "pro-Mo", or "anti-Mo" one. Or the idea that some non-members are members, and some members are non-members.

Who cares.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 04:30 PM
Oh, and for those interested in Ives' "report card" for Toronto FC yesterday, here it is:



TORONTO FC: A-plus

Mo Johnston was expected to trade away at least two of his three first-round draft picks, but chose instead to keep all his picks. The decision resulted in Toronto FC grabbing what could wind up being one of the best collections of talent in league draft history.



When you get the best midfielder (Sam Cronin), the best goalkeeper (Stefan Frei) and someone who could arguably be the best forward when healthy (O'Brian White), you've had a good day. TFC could still wind up dealing Frei, but ultimately Toronto won the day because it collected a boatload of talent it could wind up keeping.
- Scott

poppamidnight
01-16-2009, 04:50 PM
Honestly I have one very simple question for you. Have you ever seen Gonzales play? Because you sure as hell are talking like someone who analyzed these players for months before the draft. Were you at the combine?

The reviews on Gonzales where mixed, I heard everything from "He's slow and sluggish, he'll get eaten alive in the MLS" to "He's the best defender availalbe and he's MLS ready". So unless you actually saw this guy play, how the hell could you make a stupid statement like "Gonzales is better then Cronin" based on mixed reviews?

Wake up buddy, it's very likely Mo didn't rate Gonzales very high, and guess what? who the hell do you think we should have faith in? Some random poster on a forum or Mo?

don't say "mixed".... there was the odd slow/sluggish comparison, but most was "the best defender available", "best player available"

If 50 people say "yay" and one says "nay", is it "mixed results"????

By the way, dont think i mentioned it my post before - but i Love the White/Frei picks... but in my view (and i hope most peoples views) your HIGHEST pick is more determinative of your results than your LOWER picks

As for the Gonzo/Cronin - what good is a "ready to step in now" midfielder WHEN YOU ALREADY HAVE VET'S DOMINATING THE MID!!!!

Tell me this people!

Cuz i honestly have no clue,

I mean if anything - if you had vets like Robbo, De-Ro, Amado - wouldn't they be your primary mid's and you would draft a "project" with "more upside"???

You really don't need a ready-to-step in if he's not topping those guys in your depth chart....

Makes no sense...

Then factor in the Free-agent D matter:
-Thanks for your services Mr. Tebily
-Marco "quarter-Season" Velez?

Are we gunan nab another one of those defensive saviours?

And i wouldnt say James was the defender blowing peoples socks off last year...
...expectations were never that great for him, nor should they have been

Iro had/has a bigger upside, so does Franklin (both drafted ahead of James)

It's comparing apples/oranges with James to Gonzalez

You can't say just cuz a #9 overall pick didnt blow your socks off, your going to stay away from picking defenders again - especially a consensus top-3 pick like Gonzalez

It was the Bloody Ninth pick
-in theory NOT THE BEST PLAYER, not the second best player, not the third best player....THE NINTH BEST PLAYER!!!

Cashcleaner
01-16-2009, 04:52 PM
Are you sure about that because this thread says otherwise:

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=126

That thread was posted on all three main supporter group boards.

Consensus: RPB = Pro Mo, U-Sector = On the fence, NEE = Anti Mo

I don't really know how reflective that poll is of our membership at large, but those results are a bit of a surprise. SweetOwnGoal, I think I owe you an apology because, well, the numbers pretty much say it all.


TORONTO FC: A-plus

Mo Johnston was expected to trade away at least two of his three first-round draft picks, but chose instead to keep all his picks. The decision resulted in Toronto FC grabbing what could wind up being one of the best collections of talent in league draft history.

When you get the best midfielder (Sam Cronin), the best goalkeeper (Stefan Frei) and someone who could arguably be the best forward when healthy (O'Brian White), you've had a good day. TFC could still wind up dealing Frei, but ultimately Toronto won the day because it collected a boatload of talent it could wind up keeping. Oh, and thanks for posting this, Shakes. Ives is right on the money with this report card.

Bah! I hate making predictions like this, but here goes: Maybe its because I have a bias towards GKs, but Frei is going to be a dark horse for Toronto FC. I think we really picked up a potential star here but not a lot of people really see it just yet. Call it my gut talking to me, but I think he's going to be the one who replaces Sutton, probably by 2011. Not easy for me to say thay either because Greg has a lot of my support, but I just have this feeling about Frei. I've got high hopes for Cronin as well, though I'm not totally convinced with White.

Shakes McQueen
01-16-2009, 07:20 PM
As for the Gonzo/Cronin - what good is a "ready to step in now" midfielder WHEN YOU ALREADY HAVE VET'S DOMINATING THE MID!!!!

Tell me this people!

Cuz i honestly have no clue,

It could simply indicate that Mo/Carver intend to bring in a veteran defender, and not trust our hopes to a rookie. This would seem to be corroborated by the knowledge that Mo's remaining checklist consists of this mystery South American striker, and a CB - he said so himself.

Julius James was a top rated rookie defender too, and he was not even close to ready to start for Toronto FC last season, as evidenced by his mostly poor performances on the pitch. Why would Gonzalez be any different?

As for our midfielders - Guevara is expected to leave within a year or two, back to Honduras. Robbo isn't getting any younger either. Cronin would fit in nicely as a replacement for a guy like Robbo, when he retires.

Our draft picks aren't necessarily to help the team immediately - they are to ensure that we have a core of solid talent for the future. And according to Ives, Toronto FC picked up three of the top four most talented players in the draft. It was a good day.

- Scott

Pachuco
01-16-2009, 08:37 PM
don't say "mixed".... there was the odd slow/sluggish comparison, but most was "the best defender available", "best player available"

If 50 people say "yay" and one says "nay", is it "mixed results"????



Well, 132 people say YAY and 5 people (including you) say NO on the poll in this thread. I guess that means you're the odd one out, and according to your theory, it makes you wrong ;)

Oh, in reference to your stupid theory about James (9th best player because he was drafted 9th), that would make Omar Gonzales 3rd best player which makes Cronin 2nd best player. Meaning, MO wins as he got 2nd best player, you lose. bye bye!

J .
01-16-2009, 08:53 PM
The consensus is that Mo did a good job. The three guys he got where all potential top five guys. I am really happy with his stockpiling of talent. I could see how some people were disappointed with little trade action, but come on, all these guys where all touted highly. Ive been critical of White, but for reasons other than potential and ability, in those terms he is a good pick while the other guy are quite good too.

How people get their hate on for Mo is I think ridiculous. Why people are so hot to get someone from a developing country who is "cheap" is ridiculous. There are not 100s of guys who are the right fit.

We are going into our 3rd year people. Likely going to get one of the last playoff spots. In the history of sports, few expansion teams are playoff contenders quickly, which is a lot of expectation for a young team and it seems we have a lot of good talent going forward.

Pachuco
01-16-2009, 08:57 PM
don't say "mixed".... there was the odd slow/sluggish comparison, but most was "the best defender available", "best player available"

If 50 people say "yay" and one says "nay", is it "mixed results"????

By the way, dont think i mentioned it my post before - but i Love the White/Frei picks... but in my view (and i hope most peoples views) your HIGHEST pick is more determinative of your results than your LOWER picks

As for the Gonzo/Cronin - what good is a "ready to step in now" midfielder WHEN YOU ALREADY HAVE VET'S DOMINATING THE MID!!!!

Tell me this people!

Cuz i honestly have no clue,

I mean if anything - if you had vets like Robbo, De-Ro, Amado - wouldn't they be your primary mid's and you would draft a "project" with "more upside"???

You really don't need a ready-to-step in if he's not topping those guys in your depth chart....

Makes no sense...

Then factor in the Free-agent D matter:
-Thanks for your services Mr. Tebily
-Marco "quarter-Season" Velez?

Are we gunan nab another one of those defensive saviours?

And i wouldnt say James was the defender blowing peoples socks off last year...
...expectations were never that great for him, nor should they have been

Iro had/has a bigger upside, so does Franklin (both drafted ahead of James)

It's comparing apples/oranges with James to Gonzalez

You can't say just cuz a #9 overall pick didnt blow your socks off, your going to stay away from picking defenders again - especially a consensus top-3 pick like Gonzalez

It was the Bloody Ninth pick
-in theory NOT THE BEST PLAYER, not the second best player, not the third best player....THE NINTH BEST PLAYER!!!


You know what's hilarious? There are four sites that covered the combine, Ives was the first one to say Gonzales look slow and sluggish. So I decided to check another one. Guess what I find?

"Gonzalez appears to be the sole central defender prospect which initially appeared to be ripe with candidates, but has since dwindled (see below). Gonzalez is a warrior in the air. Gonzalez is not quick – can he overcome that? He needs a partner who can complement him. "

Now I'd like to point you to this person's comments on Cronin

Of the 71 players at the combine, only Sam Cronin (Wake Forest) is ready to start, now. His play exemplified the difference between a player ready to make the leap and many of the college projects still remaining.

http://proplayerpipeline.wordpress.com/

*************

I don't have time to go through the other 2 sites that reported from the combine. But at this point, you're whole theory about Gonzales not being slow is out the window, I mean I've only checked 2 out of 4 sites and they both agree he's slow.

Now I challenge you, find me those 50 people that said Gonzales wasn't slow?

rocker
01-17-2009, 03:43 PM
i was looking around some old mock drafts from before last year's superdraft.
love this gem:

There are two defenders in this draft who are capable of making an immediate impact in MLS: Julius James and Andy Iro. Since James has had all the scouts and critics “ooh” and “ahh” all over him, I expect him to go ahead of Iro.

some guy wrote this on bigsoccer Julius James is a very good defender and I'd expect him to go in the top 5 picks....IMO he is worth trading up for

from the score:

WOW, I can’t believe we landed James; this kid is a monster and will be perfect. This could be the steal of the draft guys, how he dropped from 3 to 9 in 24 hours really surprises me. But we got a potential rookie of the year again in Toronto Red.
Even Ives was on the bandwagon:

Coach Mo Johnston has made some great picks through the years, but he got a little help with this one. Johnston couldn't contain his grin when he was able to grab James, the best defender in the draft, a player who should step in and start for TFC in year one.

let's just keep this in mind about any prospects we have, or the ones we didn't pick, like Gonzalez.

Ossington Mental Youth
01-17-2009, 04:31 PM
The only difference between James and Cronin, White and Frei is their playing time.
Cronin/Frei/White will see a bit of playing time whereas James saw enough to know that we should trade him or should have passed on him.

Also the James was 'MLS ready' Frei has been said to be better than Guzan when he got drafted. It doesnt mean THAT much but its still a comparison between someone thats not proven and some that is. James never saw that. Semantics, i know.

Nomad
01-17-2009, 04:49 PM
I think it's funny that this thread has started to degenerate into identity politics of which supporters group is the "pro-Mo", or "anti-Mo" one. Or the idea that some non-members are members, and some members are non-members.

Who cares.

- Scott

Is that what this thread has turned into? Are you sure? :rolleyes:

Re-read those posts and they were replies to things brought up. It's not like they popped up out of context. This had nothing to do with sgs versus each other but rather a reflection on how people have felt in the past. It seemed to me there was a bit of revisionism happening so i brought up a thread which i feel supported the opposite of what people were saying. When the point that many posters here are not members of RPB i gave my thoughts on what i think of that.

What's so funny about that?

Shakes McQueen
01-18-2009, 10:58 PM
Is that what this thread has turned into? Are you sure? :rolleyes:

Re-read those posts and they were replies to things brought up. It's not like they popped up out of context. This had nothing to do with sgs versus each other but rather a reflection on how people have felt in the past. It seemed to me there was a bit of revisionism happening so i brought up a thread which i feel supported the opposite of what people were saying. When the point that many posters here are not members of RPB i gave my thoughts on what i think of that.

What's so funny about that?

My post wasn't solely in response to you.

A few people here have offered vague analysis of an internet poll, which could be voted on by any combination of the hundreds of RPB's and non-RPB's that post here. No one has any idea, and yet everyone has an opinion about it.

Then you took a weird shot at how some members aren't real members, and vice versa.

Unscientific conjecture and interpretation of informal polling data, makes me laugh - that's all.

- Scott

mighty_torontofc_2008
01-19-2009, 10:26 PM
The draft is the best thing TFC has going for it...if there was no draft and we had to depend on Canadian youth plyers for our future, we would not be think playoffs for a decade or two...this way we get top quality collage players and a chance at quick improvement.

rocker
01-21-2009, 11:29 AM
Shep Messing and Lalas' brother were glowing about TFC's draft on that MLS video show today.

Shakes McQueen
05-04-2009, 05:51 AM
NOTE: THIS IS AN OLD, BUMPED THREAD

Another thread on here got me thinking about an argument I had with a few people prior to this season, about our performance in the draft, and the draft's usefulness. Now that we are several games into this season, I decided to find thar old thread and dig it up, so everyone can see how their predictions fared. Some pretty funny reading.

Cashcleaner: Your prediction about Frei being a "darkhorse" was eerie in it's accuracy. Though he supplanted Sutts as starter far earlier than 2011. :D

I still stand by my initial opinion - we did good. Cronin has been one of our better players period, let alone "solid". Frei has been borderline player of the season thus far. However, White is still an unknown quantity - but given the performance of these two, my hopes for him are even higher than they were at the time of this thread. Some of us thought we did will in the draft, and some of us didn't, but the immediate quality they've brought to this team probably surprised everyone to varying degrees. I thought Cronin would be solid, and said as much. But I thought Frei was a backup for at least this season - what a surprise he has been.

- Scott

SteeltownBhoy
05-04-2009, 06:45 AM
Depends on how much we PIMP Frei for next season!!!!!

Steve
05-04-2009, 07:16 AM
At the time of the draft, I was happy with what Mo did, but I completely underestimated our choices. Here is what I thought:

Frei: Would be a backup keeper for us this year. Fill in for Sutts when he was injured/away for Gold cup. Possibly win a few starts by the end of the season to show faith in his growth. Share GK duties in 2010, and be our primary in 2011. Boy was I wrong on that one.

Cronin: With our stacked midfield at the time (in the Carver special 4-4-2, I had expected a diamond with Robinson/Guevara/DeRo/Ricketts) I thought there was no way in hell this kid was getting playing time. Don't get me wrong, I was high on his potential, I just figured he would be mentored by Robinson for the year (Robinson is way too solid to be pushed out), filling in when Robbo was on international duty, and getting the odd sub in for a tactical change (making the diamond into a cup). Didn't see him having a full time starting role until at least 2010, more likely 2011 (when Robbo might retire). Again, totally wrong.

White: Here I'm not wrong yet! I was hopeful at the time he would help our attack force (we didn't have Vitti yet I think) when he came in from injury for this year. But now, I'm even more excited for him. Rereading some of the articles posted in this thread, it seems like people thought he was even BETTER than Frei and Cronin, but was going to fall strictly because of his injuries. Well, he only fell to 4th overall (Frei was 13th). If he comes in with half the ability he seems to have, me could have a great 4th striker option that we really need (Dichio = target man, Vitti = clever playmaker, Barrett = workhorse/annoy the crap out of your opponents, White = Predatory striker). If White has the kind of finish I've heard he does, he makes us an instantly more dangerous team. Him coming in, and a potential new CB on the way, and the future is looking bright!

sully
05-04-2009, 08:33 AM
any updates on White's fitness status?

T_Mizz
05-04-2009, 11:08 AM
I wonder where those 31 fence sitters and 5 nay sayers stand now

AdamZ
05-04-2009, 02:11 PM
Happy? Ecstatic is more like it. Cronin's doing great, Frei is superb, and can't wait to see O'White in action.

Cambridge_Red
05-04-2009, 03:48 PM
Got OBW to sign my NEE flag... He was a little reluctant to comment on when he was going to be available, lets remember his injury was pretty severe I say we give him all the time he needs as we aren't desperate for his services.

T0R0NT0 FC
05-04-2009, 03:49 PM
any updates on White's fitness status?

I talked to White at the TFC Kickoff dinner. He said he should be match fit sometime in June. :drum:

Shakes McQueen
05-04-2009, 04:04 PM
Can't wait to see the kid in action. As long as he has an eye for the net, I don't care if he isn't as quick as he might be at 100% fitness - we just need someone who can polish off the easier ones.

- Scott

druid
05-04-2009, 04:13 PM
I would have been satisfied if Frei and Cronin turned out to be decent subs.

As it is they are two of our best. Cronin is everywhere and appears to be able to almost do it all. Nice late runs into the box, sets up goals, cuts out passes, decent tackler, nice short distribution, and good long distribution. If he could pop in the odd goal from distance he'd be the complete midfielder. If he improves over the course of the season I could see him bossing the midfield for many a game next season.

Hopefully for Cronin, and us, he won't attempt the jump out of the MLS too soon.

J .
05-04-2009, 05:52 PM
Looks like we stole the draft with Cronin and Frei. I'll wait until OB White is in to judge his contribution.

Frei is looking like he will be an allstar in MLS sooner than later. I think he'll play here for 3-5 years but if he keeps developing hes definately going over sooner. The kid has skills.

Cronin has been a key ingredient in our midfield. He plays well on the ball and off the ball he gets into good position to be relevant continuously throughout the match.

Canadian Blue
05-04-2009, 05:57 PM
must be an old thread......cuz how could anyone say no!!!

bhoybobby
05-04-2009, 09:17 PM
I wish you could get cider on draft, maybe Stella as well

Cashcleaner
05-15-2009, 04:26 AM
With TFC selecting Cronin, White and Frei, are you happy with what transpired on draft day for TFC?

Now that we've played through roughly 1/3 of the MLS season and got 2 NCC games wrapped up, I think now is a good time to discuss what Cronin, Frei, and White have brought to the table for Toronto FC.

First off, Cronin is shaping up pretty well. I think he's proven himself to be a fairly technical player and he has a good sense of pace and positioning. I agree with the remarks that his overall skill is greater than Edu, but perhaps more importantly is the fact that he seems to really want to play here in Toronto and make a name for himself with the club. The guy shows hustle and I gotta respect that.

Obviously, O'Brian White's ACL injury rules him out from any real criticism. As far as we know, he's progressing well given the condition of his knee and leg. Looking at his NCAA stats and you don't find much to complain about. They don't give Hermann Trophies to just anyone, afterall, so I'm still positive about his signing.

As for Frei, what can be said that trumps his record with Toronto? He's a rookie who has already started in 8 league matches and racked up 29 saves so far. His ball distribution is good and he seems to have more command of his defenders than Sutton did during his time. Not much to say other than he's one of the top three draftees we've fielded.

T_Mizz
05-15-2009, 11:18 AM
Yes completely agree with everthing said, except I'm not sure about saying Cronin the Barbarian is better than Edu, I mean Edu used to be able to take over games and consistently be the best player on our team but I'm not saying Cronin can't do it I'm just saying he doesn't need to because the team is better, so its a difficult comparison.
Also, Frei's distribution is phenomenal how many goalies have assists this year?

leroy
05-15-2009, 12:32 PM
As for Frei, what can be said that trumps his record with Toronto? He's a rookie who has already started in 8 league matches and racked up 29 saves so far. His ball distribution is good and he seems to have more command of his defenders than Sutton did during his time. Not much to say other than he's one of the top three draftees we've fielded.

let's not forget he also has 1 assist.....so far

:)

ExiledRed
05-15-2009, 12:51 PM
Yes completely agree with everthing said, except I'm not sure about saying Cronin the Barbarian is better than Edu, I mean Edu used to be able to take over games and consistently be the best player on our team but I'm not saying Cronin can't do it I'm just saying he doesn't need to because the team is better, so its a difficult comparison.
Also, Frei's distribution is phenomenal how many goalies have assists this year?

I disagree,

Edu's consistency was his biggest problem.

On his best day he was better than Cronin, on his worst day he was way inferior. Cronin's game is consistent and gradually improving to boot.