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View Full Version : Ives: Toronto has made offer for #1 pick and Dunivant on the trading block?



Daveisonfire
01-14-2009, 11:37 AM
http://www.soccerbyives.net/soccer_by_ives/2009/01/mls-hot-stove-seattle-ready-to-deal-red-bulls-finalize-more-deals-and-.html


Seattle is openly courting offers for the No. 1 overall pick. So who might be in play for the pick? Sources tell SBI that Toronto has already made an offer while D.C. United and FC Dallas are also interested.


If and when Chivas USa does deal Bornstein, they could wind up dealing for LA's Ante Jazic or Toronto FC's Todd Dunivant as a replacement.

Nuvinho
01-14-2009, 11:39 AM
I put in the Superdraft thread as well.

Stryker
01-14-2009, 11:39 AM
Fine by me. Alot of people here seem to be big on Dunivant but I remember him turning the ball over time after time after time after... well you get the idea.

On a side note, something in my gut tells me an unexpected player will be moved. Im thinking Barrett, Guevara or Smith.
Why I don't know.. just a strange feeling that someone "big" will go. We'll see.

canadian_bhoy
01-14-2009, 11:42 AM
Round and round and round the revolving door of Toronto FC goes.

How can we ever produce a winner with a team that is constantly turning over like this.

JDG
01-14-2009, 11:45 AM
Round and round and round the revolving door of Toronto FC goes.

How can we ever produce a winner with a team that is constantly turning over like this.


Between seasons it's to be expected. My issue is when it carrys on throughout the season.
I trust Mo to improve our roster, and am under no illusion that some players might need to be traded to make that happen.

CretanBull
01-14-2009, 11:46 AM
I like Dunnivant, I hope he stays.

DOMIN8R
01-14-2009, 11:50 AM
Interesting. Thanks Daveisonfire.

Ossington Mental Youth
01-14-2009, 11:51 AM
meh whatever about Dunny, hes ok, not terrible not amazing, basically an american Poz.
Dont think we need Bornstein tho.
Also i dont think us trading away Dunny (should that happen) or even losing one player (Marshall?) is going to screw with the chemistry of the team, we have our base we need to build on it with some solid CBs. If we were ridding of Guevara, Robbo, Brennan or Sutton or Dichio etc etc I could see it but someone that rides the pine, nah, we will be fine, especially if its to pick up a starting CB

Wagner
01-14-2009, 11:53 AM
my prediction...
Marshall to Seattle...
and De Ro has his press conference soon, now that his #14 is free.

Parkdale
01-14-2009, 11:54 AM
Dunnivant didn't play last year, so loosing him wouldn't affect the one field chemistry as much as losing someone like Marshal or Velez. I'd be sad to see him go, because he was a solid defender, and a decent guy, but that's the biz I guess.

Beach_Red
01-14-2009, 11:56 AM
Round and round and round the revolving door of Toronto FC goes.

How can we ever produce a winner with a team that is constantly turning over like this.

They're supposed to be pros, it's part of the job, they make adjustments. This league's wonky rules makes it worse, but we're no different than any other team in the league.

Hitcho
01-14-2009, 11:56 AM
given we have 2 and 4, not sure i'd want to give up very much for the first voerall pick, but seattle will want a lot for it - they need draft picks and players alike and will want at elast one of each for the top pick overall.

having said that, I'd trade 4 and marshall for the top pick (giving us the top two overall) AS LONG AS Mo has got a top CB coming in from outside the draft. We could then get zakuani and alston, and hopefully white at 13.

i'm getting excited about draft day now - COME ON TRADER MO!!!!!

Ossington Mental Youth
01-14-2009, 11:57 AM
my prediction...
Marshall to Seattle...

id bet good money hes part of the deal offered to seattle for number one

jabbronies
01-14-2009, 11:57 AM
Round and round and round the revolving door of Toronto FC goes.

How can we ever produce a winner with a team that is constantly turning over like this.


It's not like we don't have a consitant core of players:
Brennan, Wynne, Dichio, Sutton, Robbo

And these guys could also be considered core keepers as well:
Guevera, Barrett, Gala, Nana,

Dunny hasn't really been in the system for almost a year now. loosing him is not like loosing one of the core guys.

Ossington Mental Youth
01-14-2009, 11:58 AM
given we have 2 and 4, not sure i'd want to give up very much for the first voerall pick, but seattle will want a lot for it - they need draft picks and players alike and will want at elast one of each for the top pick overall.

having said that, I'd trade 4 and marshall for the top pick (giving us the top two overall) AS LONG AS Mo has got a top CB coming in from outside the draft. We could then get zakuani and alston, and hopefully white at 13.

i'm getting excited about draft day now - COME ON TRADER MO!!!!!


Prob be Zakuani, Frei and White from what ive read around.

Ossington Mental Youth
01-14-2009, 11:59 AM
as pointed out in the other draft thread, Bornstein would prob be used as trade bait...

TFC07
01-14-2009, 12:01 PM
Seriously, why is Mo trading players for draft picks (unproven players)? Given Mo's track record of drafting for TFC, I don't like this move at all. If Mo looking to trade Dunny, then try to get proven MLS players (like Jazic for an example).

Ossington Mental Youth
01-14-2009, 12:04 PM
dude, hes prob going for draft picks to TRADE for proven players (as mentioned in this thread and a billion others). As for Jazic, he costs too much, plays in several positions we have covered and is injured all the time.

On another note Obrien White has said he wants to play for TFC but will try his trade in Europe if necessary. From that i take that he will hold out on signing with the mls unless his name is drafted by TFC (is that possible draftheads? please feel free to clarify)

Pigfynn
01-14-2009, 12:06 PM
Maybe it's a matter of Dallas needing a guarantee of being able to get Gonzalez (1st pick) so we'll deal the fourth and Dunny or Marshall for the 1st and then trade it for Serioux and allocation money?

tfc
01-14-2009, 12:07 PM
Seriously, why is Mo trading players for draft picks (unproven players)? Given Mo's track record of drafting for TFC, I don't like this move at all. If Mo looking to trade Dunny, then try to get proven MLS players (like Jazic for an example).

ummmmmmm mo's probably the best drafter out there ... ex. edu, altidore, wynne ...

TFC07
01-14-2009, 12:10 PM
ummmmmmm mo's probably the best drafter out there ... ex. edu, altidore, wynne ...

Edu was clear number 1 pick. Any GM with first pick would have picked Edu. Mo's record as Toronto GM has been awful in terms of drafting. Just look at history of TFC picks. So far most of have been busts.

Super
01-14-2009, 12:21 PM
I'd personally hate to see Dunivant go. He wasn't great in certain games, but pretty solid in most. We also have the advantage with him that he plays well in both defence and midfield. This is the sort of thing that Poz brought to the team as well - except Dunivant is better IMHO.

Parkdale
01-14-2009, 12:25 PM
This is the sort of thing that Poz brought to the team as well - except Dunivant is better IMHO.

That's not just your opinion, most people think that way too.

H Bomb
01-14-2009, 12:26 PM
Edu was clear number 1 pick. Any GM with first pick would have picked Edu. Mo's record as Toronto GM has been awful in terms of drafting. Just look at history of TFC picks. So far most of have been busts.

there's no context in this....look at all the other GM's in the league and find me one that's got a better draft record....

GingerNinja
01-14-2009, 12:34 PM
Not Dunni!! Nooooooo!!!!!!!!

T_Mizz
01-14-2009, 12:34 PM
Plus at the time of the draft every expert had Mo as the ultimate winner its not his fault the players didn't pan out, also lets not forget that one of last year's picks got us our best player

Parkdale
01-14-2009, 12:34 PM
Not Dunni!! Nooooooo!!!!!!!!

you have a crush! get over it.

Parkdale
01-14-2009, 12:35 PM
also lets not forget that one of last year's picks got us our best player


who exactly?

Pigfynn
01-14-2009, 12:36 PM
well it is his fault if the picks don't pan out...he drafted them, but I'd say the real issue is that the talent level is simply not high enough and it's a matter of sifting through shit to find a decent player.

Oldtimer
01-14-2009, 12:39 PM
Edu was clear number 1 pick. Any GM with first pick would have picked Edu. Mo's record as Toronto GM has been awful in terms of drafting. Just look at history of TFC picks. So far most of have been busts.

Ives and most other commentators think that Mo is the best at drafting.
Of course, you're entitled to your opinion, but as a noted Mo-hater, it doesn't carry much weight.

Stouffville_RPB
01-14-2009, 12:40 PM
Edu was clear number 1 pick. Any GM with first pick would have picked Edu. Mo's record as Toronto GM has been awful in terms of drafting. Just look at history of TFC picks. So far most of have been busts.

MLS draft is a crap shoot. Most players drafted don't turn out to be anything spectacular. No one drafts superbly well in MLS cuz it is not possible talent wise. Mo has done a good job in the draft, if you ask most people I think they would agree.

H Bomb
01-14-2009, 12:42 PM
who exactly?

Dero

I'm just happy that tomorrow is a guaranteed news day

Wagner
01-14-2009, 12:44 PM
Seriously, why is Mo trading players for draft picks (unproven players)? Given Mo's track record of drafting for TFC, I don't like this move at all. If Mo looking to trade Dunny, then try to get proven MLS players (like Jazic for an example).

Mo has a great eye for talent.

Wynne (albeit with the Red Cows)
Edu
James (who was traded for DeRo)

I trust MoJo.

GingerNinja
01-14-2009, 12:45 PM
you have a crush! get over it.

I can't. I refuse to.

http://toronto.fc.mlsnet.com/imgs/bios/photos/dunivant_bio_0308.jpg :hump::hump::hump:

Parkdale
01-14-2009, 12:45 PM
also lets not forget that one of last year's picks got us our best player


who exactly?


Dero


That's playing with paper.

Until DeRo is dressed, and scoring goals, it's all speculative.

T_Mizz
01-14-2009, 12:51 PM
Everyone and their mums knew that the best defender was James and the best DM was Phelan but drafting is never an exact science, in any sport, Ryan Leaf anyone?

T_Mizz
01-14-2009, 12:53 PM
That's playing with paper.

Until DeRo is dressed, and scoring goals, it's all speculative.

I'll give you that but a proven goalscorer and winner that doesn't count as an international? sounds pretty great to me.:canada:

Beach_Red
01-14-2009, 12:54 PM
who exactly?

That would be the JJ for DeRo trade......

Parkdale
01-14-2009, 12:58 PM
yes, I know trading JJ for DeRo was a great move.....
BUT there's an old expression about counting chickens before they hatch.

BFin
01-14-2009, 01:00 PM
Just read an article from yesterday on WV Hooligan Soccer Blog that said the offer we made to Seattle involves our #4 pick, thus giving us 1-2-13 if the offer is accepted. At least the trade is not for our #2, because it would make no sense to me to give up a position player for one spot in the draft.

Beach_Red
01-14-2009, 01:03 PM
yes, I know trading JJ for DeRo was a great move.....
BUT there's an old expression about counting chickens before they hatch.

Yes, but that saying does not apply to sports supporting.

TFC OZZ
01-14-2009, 01:05 PM
I like dunivant, he's a solid, under-rated player, who seems to enjoy being a part of TFC.

Parkdale
01-14-2009, 01:06 PM
because it would make no sense to me to give up a position player for one spot in the draft.


exactly.

I'm sure the #1 guy to go in the draft will be a quality player, but #2 probably will be too.

reggie
01-14-2009, 01:07 PM
we got dero?
when did they have the presser...i must of missed it

T_Mizz
01-14-2009, 01:10 PM
Is it cold under that rock reg? haha

Parkdale
01-14-2009, 01:10 PM
we still haven't had a press conference or seen him in a TFC jersey.

Beach_Red
01-14-2009, 01:12 PM
we still haven't had a press conference or seen him in a TFC jersey.


There's a whole thread in off topic for conspiracy theories but you threatened to shut it down ;).

T_Mizz
01-14-2009, 01:12 PM
Oh ye of little faith, when your the laughing stock of the league you need to have faith things like this will work out

TFC07
01-14-2009, 01:13 PM
there's no context in this....look at all the other GM's in the league and find me one that's got a better draft record....

New England do a good job in drafting players.

People referring to James-DeRo trade, well it has to do more with the fact that DeRo wasn't happy in Houston and wanted out because he wanted more money. TFC is only team in MLS that is willing to pay DeRo more money than any other team in MLS. So Houston were pretty much were force to take our crap for DeRo. BTW, James is 24 year old player. So there isn't much room for James to develop now. I believe he was one of players in last year's draft that was suppose to make immediate impact, but he didn't...

Edu was clear number pick. Any GM who had number 1 pick in that draft would have picked Edu. TFC were very lucky to get first pick.

Overall, Mo has been awful in terms of drafting for TFC. Right now, I think Edwards is only player on our roster that been drafted by TFC.

For the record, I am NOT a Mo hater. There's nothing wrong of questioning some of moves/picks that Mo has made for TFC in the past.

T_Mizz
01-14-2009, 01:16 PM
But the question then becomes, who has done better? The MLS Draft is kinda the most useless draft on the planet so being good at it (which I still maintain Johnston is) is like being the best waterboy in the NFL

jabbronies
01-14-2009, 01:17 PM
Mo also drafted Jozy Altidore

ua-kozak_TFC
01-14-2009, 01:18 PM
Round and round and round the revolving door of Toronto FC goes.

How can we ever produce a winner with a team that is constantly turning over like this.
i personally didn;t have value dunivant highly. Great guy... but nothing exceptional on the pitch...
Sometimes you need to give up something good to get something better.

reggie
01-14-2009, 01:19 PM
what time is the draft anyway?

TFC07
01-14-2009, 01:21 PM
Mo also drafted Jozy Altidore

Sure, I give Mo credit for that....but as a TFC GM, most of his picks have been busts.

DOMIN8R
01-14-2009, 01:22 PM
I can't. I refuse to.

http://toronto.fc.mlsnet.com/imgs/bios/photos/dunivant_bio_0308.jpg :hump::hump::hump:

SOoo what your saying is that you would shag him only 3 times?

jabbronies
01-14-2009, 01:23 PM
Sure, I give Mo credit for that....but as a TFC GM, most of his picks have been busts.


Really???

Edu
Wynne
James (who has turned into DeRo)
Edwards

Oldtimer
01-14-2009, 01:24 PM
Mo also drafted Jozy Altidore

... and that draft pick was not seen by anyone else.
Mo's a good judge of NCAA talent.

TFC07
01-14-2009, 01:28 PM
Really???

Edu
Wynne
James (who has turned into DeRo)
Edwards

Wynne wasn't draft by TFC.

Just read my big post if you haven't.

Beach_Red
01-14-2009, 01:29 PM
The off season is too long and some NCAA draft isn't enough to fill the void.

Oldtimer
01-14-2009, 01:29 PM
New England do a good job in drafting players.




True. Probably the only other team that has done really well in the Superdraft. Nichol and Mike Burns have a good record at building through the draft.




Overall, Mo has been awful in terms of drafting for TFC. Right now, I think Edwards is only player on our roster that been drafted by TFC.



Semantics. Mo drafted really well in NY. Also not counting the trade/fee value of past TFC draft picks is really getting petty.

TFC07
01-14-2009, 01:29 PM
... and that draft pick was not seen by anyone else.
Mo's a good judge of NCAA talent.

Jozy wasn't a college player

TFC07
01-14-2009, 01:31 PM
Semantics. Mo drafted really well in NY. Also not counting the trade/fee value of past draft picks is really getting petty.

Mo has made 2 great picks, but besides that, he picks have been busts.

Oldtimer
01-14-2009, 01:34 PM
Jozy wasn't a college player

He's also a good judge of talent in other domestic leagues and in players that formerly played in North America (Guevara).

His only middling record is in overseas transactions. Some have been good (Dichio, Ricketts), others have been busts (Welsh, Robert). I'm convinced that Tebily would have been good if only his wife had wanted to stay.

jabbronies
01-14-2009, 01:38 PM
Wynne wasn't draft by TFC.

Just read my big post if you haven't.

oops...Kill wynne, but the rest are good - 3 players in two years is not a bad record. lets not forget this isn't the NHL draft. The talent doesn't run that need into the later rounds.

AL-MO
01-14-2009, 01:38 PM
Mo has made 2 great picks, but besides that, he picks have been busts.

As Stouffville said on the previous page, the whole draft is a crapshoot.

This isn't the NBA or NFL where players can come in and make an impact right away.

Parkdale
01-14-2009, 01:38 PM
His only middling record is in overseas transactions. Some have been good (Dichio, Ricketts), others have been busts (Welsh, Robert).

add Robbo to the good category.

jabbronies
01-14-2009, 01:39 PM
He's also a good judge of talent in other domestic leagues.

His only middling record is in overseas transactions. Some have been good (Dichio, Ricketts), others have been busts (Welsh, Robert). I'm convinced that Tebily would have been good if only his wife had wanted to stay.

Marco Velez was also a bust

GabrielHurl
01-14-2009, 01:41 PM
the jury is still out on him tbf

TFC07
01-14-2009, 01:41 PM
He's also a good judge of talent in other UK leagues and in players that formerly played in North America (Guevara).

His only middling record is in overseas transactions. Some have been good (Dichio, Ricketts), others have been busts (Welsh, Robert). I'm convinced that Tebily would have been good if only his wife had wanted to stay.

FYP.

Mo has been okay when comes to signing British players (or players that have connection to UK) but I wish Mo actually made more an effort to trying to acquire couple of South American players though.

T_Mizz
01-14-2009, 01:42 PM
Okay let's see:
2007 MLS Superdraft
1) Maurice Edu- 5M Transfer to Rangers - Not a bust
10) Andy Boyens- Released after starting on the backline first year - Bust
27) Richard Asante- Mutually released after never playing a game - Bust
40) Jeffrey Gonzalves- Released? Never played a game or even appeared on the roster - Bust

2007 MLS Supplemental Draft
1) Jarrod Smith- Taken by Seattle in the expansion draft - Bust
14) Darryl Roberts- Chose to go to Europe instead - Bust
27) Hunter West- Do not know a damn thing about this guy, but never played a game - Bust
40) Tyler Hemming- A solid canadian player, but admittedly nothing special - Bust

2008 MLS Superdraft
9) Julius James- Played limited games, dealt to Dynamo in DeRo trade - Not a Bust
10) Pat Phelan- Saw limited Playing time before being dealt to NE for an International spot until 2010 - Not a Bust
28) Brian Edwards- Solid backup who has seen some action and performed alright 2 wins- Not a Bust
30) Mike Zaher- Never played a game, dealt to DC for an undisclosed Draft pick (2008 supplemental I believe) - Bust
35) Joseph Lapira- Never played a game, opted for Third Tier Norwegian football (good choice) - Bust

2008 Supplemental Draft
2) Xavier Balc- Never played a game, don't know whatever happened to him - Bust

So there you have it, every player ever drafted by Mo at TFC, keep in mind the ridiculus nature that some of these picks were, no one is expected to play a game after the first round.

T_Mizz
01-14-2009, 01:44 PM
add Robbo to the good category.
And Jimmy B:canada:

Azerban
01-14-2009, 01:45 PM
Sure, I give Mo credit for that....but as a TFC GM, most of his picks have been busts.

What does it matter what team he was on when he was drafting? You're just manipulating the data.

TFC07
01-14-2009, 01:46 PM
Okay let's see:
2007 MLS Superdraft
1) Maurice Edu- 5M Transfer to Rangers - Not a bust
10) Andy Boyens- Released after starting on the backline first year - Bust
27) Richard Asante- Mutually released after never playing a game - Bust
40) Jeffrey Gonzalves- Released? Never played a game or even appeared on the roster - Bust

2007 MLS Supplemental Draft
1) Jarrod Smith- Taken by Seattle in the expansion draft - Bust
14) Darryl Roberts- Chose to go to Europe instead - Bust
27) Hunter West- Do not know a damn thing about this guy, but never played a game - Bust
40) Tyler Hemming- A solid canadian player, but admittedly nothing special - Bust

2008 MLS Superdraft
9) Julius James- Played limited games, dealt to Dynamo in DeRo trade - Not a Bust
10) Pat Phelan- Saw limited Playing time before being dealt to NE for an International spot until 2010 - Not a Bust
28) Brian Edwards- Solid backup who has seen some action and performed alright 2 wins- Not a Bust
30) Mike Zaher- Never played a game, dealt to DC for an undisclosed Draft pick (2008 supplemental I believe) - Bust
35) Joseph Lapira- Never played a game, opted for Third Tier Norwegian football (good choice) - Bust

2008 Supplemental Draft
2) Xavier Balc- Never played a game, don't know whatever happened to him - Bust

So there you have it, every player ever drafted by Mo at TFC, keep in mind the ridiculus nature that some of these picks were, no one is expected to play a game after the first round.

Phelan hasn't done much in NE. So I consider him a bust.

Only reason we got DeRo while giving our bust (James) and money because DeRo wanted more money. TFC is only team in MLS willing to pay DeRo more. James isn't that great. I don't think he will fully develop into a good player.

Edu was clear number 1 pick in 2007 draft. We were lucky to have first pick in that draft. Any GM who had first pick in that draft would have picked Edu.

T_Mizz
01-14-2009, 01:48 PM
Yes we get it stop copying and pasting, but you need to look at those draft and see the players around our picks and no one stands out

T_Mizz
01-14-2009, 01:51 PM
Also what does it matter what Phelan did for another team, you're the one trying to make this only about TFC and what he did is give us another valuable International slot

TFC OZZ
01-14-2009, 02:02 PM
Mo has made 2 great picks, but besides that, he picks have been busts.

I'm sorry, but I just plain disagree.


Okay let's see:
2007 MLS Superdraft
1) Maurice Edu- 5M Transfer to Rangers - Not a bust
10) Andy Boyens- Released after starting on the backline first year - Bust
27) Richard Asante- Mutually released after never playing a game - Bust
40) Jeffrey Gonzalves- Released? Never played a game or even appeared on the roster - Bust

2007 MLS Supplemental Draft
1) Jarrod Smith- Taken by Seattle in the expansion draft - Bust
14) Darryl Roberts- Chose to go to Europe instead - Bust
27) Hunter West- Do not know a damn thing about this guy, but never played a game - Bust
40) Tyler Hemming- A solid canadian player, but admittedly nothing special - Bust

2008 MLS Superdraft
9) Julius James- Played limited games, dealt to Dynamo in DeRo trade - Not a Bust
10) Pat Phelan- Saw limited Playing time before being dealt to NE for an International spot until 2010 - Not a Bust
28) Brian Edwards- Solid backup who has seen some action and performed alright 2 wins- Not a Bust
30) Mike Zaher- Never played a game, dealt to DC for an undisclosed Draft pick (2008 supplemental I believe) - Bust
35) Joseph Lapira- Never played a game, opted for Third Tier Norwegian football (good choice) - Bust

2008 Supplemental Draft
2) Xavier Balc- Never played a game, don't know whatever happened to him - Bust

So there you have it, every player ever drafted by Mo at TFC, keep in mind the ridiculus nature that some of these picks were, no one is expected to play a game after the first round.

Any player who has gotten any playing time whatsoever, I consider to be a good pickup. You are thinking way too specifically, and not about long term, or team-oriented goals. It's not whether the player that we got was good, it's what that player did for our team either on the field, or from trades. For example:

Phelan was a highly rated player coming into the draft, however MO picked him up and quickly sent him to New England for an extra Senior International spot, which was desperately needed. That's not described as "not a bust" that should be described as a smart acquisition.

Calling Joseph Lapira a bust?? We used a late pick as a gamble on a guy that was being touted amongst the top 3 players in the draft. Unfortunately he didn't stay in MLS, but he's a Republic of Ireland cap tied international striker, who we COULD HAVE gotten had he chose to stay in MLS.

Calling Xavier Balc a bust is the same thing as Lapira, the guy was touted to be one of the best players in the draft, and we used A SUPPLEMENTAL DRAFT PICK ON HIM. THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE THOSE ANYMORE. Utterly ridiculous to call him a bust.

Tyler Hemming contributed to our team and played for the frist team, oh, and he was a CANADIAN definitely a good acquisition.

Jarrod Smith played on our first team, and scored. He was picked up in the expansion draft, there's no way you can call him a bust.

Andrew Boyens was picked up in our first season when we were desperate for help at defense, and he was traded to New york, where he's been a started for the team at times.

We recieved compensation for Zaher, so in my mind, that's not a bust pick.

As long as we got something out of the pick, I think that it's useful. To say MO is not a good drafter/trader is utterly madness as far as I'm concerned.

AL-MO
01-14-2009, 02:02 PM
Mo also drafted Jozy Altidore

Who was picked in the second round no less...

AL-MO
01-14-2009, 02:06 PM
While I think the impact of players that have been taken in the draft has increased over the years, the majority of these players drafted amount to nothing. So I really don't get too excited for the Super Draft.

T_Mizz
01-14-2009, 02:12 PM
I'm sorry, but I just plain disagree.



Any player who has gotten any playing time whatsoever, I consider to be a good pickup. You are thinking way too specifically, and not about long term, or team-oriented goals. It's not whether the player that we got was good, it's what that player did for our team either on the field, or from trades. For example:

Phelan was a highly rated player coming into the draft, however MO picked him up and quickly sent him to New England for an extra Senior International spot, which was desperately needed. That's not described as "not a bust" that should be described as a smart acquisition.

Calling Joseph Lapira a bust?? We used a late pick as a gamble on a guy that was being touted amongst the top 3 players in the draft. Unfortunately he didn't stay in MLS, but he's a Republic of Ireland cap tied international striker, who we COULD HAVE gotten had he chose to stay in MLS.

Calling Xavier Balc a bust is the same thing as Lapira, the guy was touted to be one of the best players in the draft, and we used A SUPPLEMENTAL DRAFT PICK ON HIM. THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE THOSE ANYMORE. Utterly ridiculous to call him a bust.

Tyler Hemming contributed to our team and played for the frist team, oh, and he was a CANADIAN definitely a good acquisition.

Jarrod Smith played on our first team, and scored. He was picked up in the expansion draft, there's no way you can call him a bust.

Andrew Boyens was picked up in our first season when we were desperate for help at defense, and he was traded to New york, where he's been a started for the team at times.

We recieved compensation for Zaher, so in my mind, that's not a bust pick.

As long as we got something out of the pick, I think that it's useful. To say MO is not a good drafter/trader is utterly madness as far as I'm concerned.
First off, I'm on your side, Mo is a great drafter
Second, when someone is touted as a great prospect and turns out to be absolute shite sorry, but that's the actual definition of a bust actually, why don't you ask Ryan Leaf who's picture is next to the definition of "Draft Bust"

jabbronies
01-14-2009, 02:17 PM
First off, I'm on your side, Mo is a great drafter
Second, when someone is touted as a great prospect and turns out to be absolute shite sorry, but that's the actual definition of a bust actually, why don't you ask Ryan Leaf who's picture is next to the definition of "Draft Bust"


hahahahaha anyone with "Leaf" in thier name is bust!! (That was my crack the TML)

AL-MO
01-14-2009, 02:19 PM
hahahahaha anyone with "Leaf" in thier name is bust!! (That was my crack the TML)

'Cryin' Leaf was just a joke. He had all the talent in the world, but the emotional make up of a 16 year old and was trying to play the most important position in the NFL. MASSIVE FAIL! :p

TFC OZZ
01-14-2009, 02:20 PM
I'll re-iterate what I said.

The two players that were rated very highly that we drafted were Lapira and Balc. Lapira chose to leave the league, and we used a LATE PICK on him as a gamble. On Balc, we used a supplemental draft pick. The league no longer has the supplemental draft, that's how late that pick was. I don't think for a second that "gambling" on a highly touted player LATE IN THE DRAFT is a bad idea. The plus side is way higher than the negative. If either of those players had chosen to play/made the team, there was a larger chance of them succeeding than other players, hence why we picked them. For all you know, we picked them up as trade bait, and the trades fell through. Just because the player didn't make a huge impact on our team doesn't make them a bust.

The other three first round players that we've drafted (James, Phelan, and Edu) have all been involved in trades, that were directly beneficial to the club.

ensco
01-14-2009, 02:22 PM
Ives and most other commentators think that Mo is the best at drafting.
Of course, you're entitled to your opinion, but as a noted Mo-hater, it doesn't carry much weight.

Drafting is a smaller part of a GM's job in MLS than it is in other North American sports. Signing the right players is more important.

For instance: we signed Jim Brennan (our anchor and captain) whereas SJ had to use their number one overall pick last year to trade for theirs (Nick Garcia). That enabled Mo to draft/keep Edu.

(On the other hand, Mo couldn't sign Huckerby, for whatever reason, and SJ got him. So we have a big hole still at striker, and SJ doesn't. That was a bigger deal than anything that happened at the 2008 draft.)

olegunnar
01-14-2009, 02:31 PM
Mo also drafted Jozy Altidore

He also picked:
Blake Camp
Andrew Boyens
Rich Asante
Jeffry Gonsalves
Julius James
Pat Phelan
Mike Zaher
Joe Lapira

I think Mo does a good job with the slam dunk picks. Besides that I think Edwards is his only good pick.

Not trying to play mind games, I'm just talking about facts

Broadview
01-14-2009, 02:32 PM
Jarrod Smith played on our first team, and scored. He was picked up in the expansion draft, there's no way you can call him a bust.


Just to add to your point, by "losing" Smith in the expansion draft, we hung on to Sutton, Rickets ey all.

Not a bust!

JonO
01-14-2009, 02:36 PM
For instance: we signed Jim Brennan (our anchor and captain) whereas SJ had to use their number one overall pick last year to trade for theirs (Nick Garcia). That enabled Mo to draft/keep Edu.

(On the other hand, Mo couldn't sign Huckerby, for whatever reason, and SJ got him. So we have a big hole still at striker, and SJ doesn't. That was a bigger deal than anything that happened at the 2008 draft.)
Signing players requires a lot of luck and the right circumstances... Brennan was happy to come home so it worked out for Mo. From what I've read (and it may be right/wrong for all I know) Huckerby didn't want to come here - not much Mo could do in that instance.

I agree that the GM has to be able to recognize the talent and the opportunity, but it's not a one-way street, it's a negotiation

Blizzard
01-14-2009, 02:38 PM
who exactly?

James for DeRo trade.

Oldtimer
01-14-2009, 02:39 PM
As long as we got something out of the pick, I think that it's useful. To say MO is not a good drafter/trader is utterly madness as far as I'm concerned.

... and that about sums it up.

By comparison, let's look at KC's picks over the same period:

Chance Myers -- played 10 games, started 7. Bust.
Rogers Espinoza -- played 22 games. started 12. Not a bust.
Yomby William -- Plays in USL. Bust.
Jonathan Leathers -- played 15 games, started 12. Not a bust.
Matt Marquess -- played 5 games, started 4. bust.
Rauwshan McKenzie -- Did not play. bust.
Michael Harrington -- Played 59 games. Not a bust.
Edson Elcock -- Waived. Played in USL. Now back in college. Mega-bust.
Kurt Morsink -- Played 42 games. Not a bust.

I picked KC because they had 2008's top pick, which gave them an edge.
It's hard to say that they drafted better than Mo. They used their #1 pick on Myers (signed for $130,000!), which was a definite bust. Only 2 of their picks were good. 2 were so-so.
No Edus, Wynnes, or Altidores among them. That's despite having the #1 pick.

GingerNinja
01-14-2009, 02:44 PM
SOoo what your saying is that you would shag him only 3 times?

3 times a day. everyday for the rest of our lives.
Duni, if you're reading this...

...:hump: (call me;))

Shakes McQueen
01-14-2009, 02:55 PM
He also picked:
Blake Camp
Andrew Boyens
Rich Asante
Jeffry Gonsalves
Julius James
Pat Phelan
Mike Zaher
Joe Lapira

I think Mo does a good job with the slam dunk picks. Besides that I think Edwards is his only good pick.

Not trying to play mind games, I'm just talking about facts

The facts are that he also got us a player that was traded to Rangers for $5 million dollars. Julius James was felt by Houston to be good enough to be the lone player in a deal for DeRo.

Mo also drafted Altidore in the second round of the draft, largely considered to be one of the brightest American stars overseas.

A lot of Mo's later round picks have amounted to nothing, but that is the same of virtually every team in the league. It isn't because of managerial incompetence - it's because the MLS draft is typically paper thin on talent.

- Scott

rocker
01-14-2009, 03:10 PM
ya, the only way you do that analysis of picks accurately is to get the draft records of all the teams during Mo's reign as GM and see how those picks turned out.
Cuz it's entirely possible that most draft picks fail no matter who is picking.
It'd also be interesting to see who has the most successful picks. (the ones who turn out to be transfer targets or who play regularly in MLS).

Beach_Red
01-14-2009, 03:14 PM
ya, the only way you do that analysis of picks accurately is to get the draft records of all the teams during Mo's reign as GM and see how those picks turned out.
Cuz it's entirely possible that most draft picks fail no matter who is picking.
It'd also be interesting to see who has the most successful picks. (the ones who turn out to be transfer targets or who play regularly in MLS).

There are a lot of factors, including the team the player is drafted by. I still say if James had been able to sit on the bench for a year and if Tebily had played the whole year, James would have developed better.

Some players are drafted and expected to start right away and some are only expected to start in a few years. And then sometimes those plans change.

Broadview
01-14-2009, 03:31 PM
There are a lot of factors, including the team the player is drafted by. I still say if James had been able to sit on the bench for a year and if Tebily had played the whole year, James would have developed better.

Some players are drafted and expected to start right away and some are only expected to start in a few years. And then sometimes those plans change.

I won't be surprised if James has a decent MLS career. His playing time was pretty sporadic and any new guy's likely to goof up here and there. He may not have been "MLS Ready" like he was advertised by some, but it's pretty rare for draftees in any pro sport to shine right away. He played in, what, 10 games? Houston's lucky that the first part of his learning curve came at our expense.

Hitcho
01-14-2009, 03:35 PM
So anyone got any info on whether we have actually made an offer for the first overall pick, and if so what we offered for it?

Not that this debate about past draft picks isn't intersting and stuff, but it's not the reason i clicked on the thread title...:D:D:D

(Although wading through a draft that was full of shit players and pointing to players picked really low in that draft to label them a bust seems fucking stupid to me, what were you expecting, Ronaldo?! It's mls, some of us could probably get in as supplemental draft picks if it was still around!)

Yohan
01-14-2009, 03:57 PM
Dont think we need Bornstein tho.

I dont see how we'd end up with Bornstein (trade to Chivas for #1 pick?) but although he didnt have such a good season last year, Bornstein was key to Chivas team that made a huge run 2 years ago. Widely considered best left back in MLS.
I'd take Bornstein over Jimmy B any day

As for Dunny, does anyone remember Goldthwaite? You know, guy who had more defensive errors than swiss cheese? And how our backline did better with Dunny in place?

JonO
01-14-2009, 03:58 PM
^^^ I was surprised to find out Bornstein makes less than Dunny... crazy MLS

Daveisonfire
01-14-2009, 04:00 PM
So anyone got any info on whether we have actually made an offer for the first overall pick, and if so what we offered for it?

Not that this debate about past draft picks isn't intersting and stuff, but it's not the reason i clicked on the thread title...:D:D:D

(Although wading through a draft that was full of shit players and pointing to players picked really low in that draft to label them a bust seems fucking stupid to me, what were you expecting, Ronaldo?! It's mls, some of us could probably get in as supplemental draft picks if it was still around!)

Read the article or better yet, read the thread title:noidea:

Stryker
01-14-2009, 04:03 PM
Man its been quiet today. Haven't heard a peep about any team makin a deal.
Suposed to be the second busiet day of the year and MLS Rumors doesn't even have anything to report.
How bizarre is that?

Hitcho
01-14-2009, 04:22 PM
Read the article or better yet, read the thread title:noidea:

Yeah thanks, that's genius. I hadn't thought of that.

Or maybe you should read the article and then re-read my post, especially the bit that reads

AND IF SO WHAT WE OFFERED FOR IT


Clearly what I'm asking is whether anyone has any additional info not in the thread title or article, or links to places that claim to have any new/additional info.

:noidea:

Hitcho
01-14-2009, 04:27 PM
Man its been quiet today. Haven't heard a peep about any team makin a deal.
Suposed to be the second busiet day of the year and MLS Rumors doesn't even have anything to report.
How bizarre is that?

I know, I've been waiting to see what pans out and nothing has so far.

When you look at the draft picks, there are quite a few teams with no first round picks or only late second or third round picks, so you'd think they would be trying to barter for some better picks if the 2009 draft is as "deep" as everyone keeps saying it is.

Then there's trader mo sitting on a nice list of first round picks who could be dishing them out for good, experienced players.

But nothing. Tomorrow should be an interesting day though!

ensco
01-14-2009, 04:35 PM
How is Dunivant's rehab going? Not a trivial consideration....

Daveisonfire
01-14-2009, 04:36 PM
Yeah thanks, that's genius. I hadn't thought of that.

Or maybe you should read the article and then re-read my post, especially the bit that reads

AND IF SO WHAT WE OFFERED FOR IT


Clearly what I'm asking is whether anyone has any additional info not in the thread title or article, or links to places that claim to have any new/additional info.

:noidea:

I don't want to get into a silly e-arguement about it but to to answer your question...

Yes, we have made an offer for the first pick...as for the second part, I don't know what we offered for it

jloome
01-14-2009, 04:40 PM
That's not just your opinion, most people think that way too.

As a winger, Dunivant is way underrated. As a fullback, he's somewhat overrated. Not doubting your memory, Stryker, but I don't remember holding onto the ball as being a big problem for him. And he crosses well.

Can't track back and defend, but then Jimmy's not great at it either.

Yohan
01-14-2009, 04:42 PM
How is Dunivant's rehab going? Not a trivial consideration....
i thought i read the other week that dunny was fit again?

Stryker
01-14-2009, 04:45 PM
Not doubting your memory, Stryker, but I don't remember holding onto the ball as being a big problem for him.

Im not one to remember particular games and dates like some people but I distinctly remember watching a couple of games on tv where he was a turnover machine.
I remember it well cause at one point I stood up and screamed "what the hell is wrong with you" at the tv.
My girlfriend then looked at me as if to say.... "what the hell is wrong with you"?
LOL.

Shaughno
01-14-2009, 04:54 PM
As a winger, Dunivant is way underrated. As a fullback, he's somewhat overrated. Not doubting your memory, Stryker, but I don't remember holding onto the ball as being a big problem for him. And he crosses well.

Can't track back and defend, but then Jimmy's not great at it either.

Pretty much how I saw it as well. Much better as a LW than LB.

Hitcho
01-14-2009, 04:55 PM
I don't want to get into a silly e-arguement about it but to to answer your question...

Yes, we have made an offer for the first pick...as for the second part, I don't know what we offered for it

No worries, me neither. Is there anything more definite than Ives' blog that we've made an offer? Trader Mo must have a clear plan in place if he is in fact going for the first overall pick, so it'd be quite an interesting development if so.

Hitcho
01-14-2009, 04:57 PM
On the Dunivant issue, his rehab is going fine, he's back in training on his own and will be starting pre-season as normal with the rest of the squad.

I quite liked the Brennan/Dunivant combo on the left, they had a decent understanding from what I saw of them together. Although I'd be happy enough to see that become a Bornstein/Brennan combo if Dunivant does go, I'd be totally happy to hold onto him. Good player, good work ethic, bit of versatility.

T_Mizz
01-14-2009, 06:16 PM
No worries, me neither. Is there anything more definite than Ives' blog that we've made an offer? Trader Mo must have a clear plan in place if he is in fact going for the first overall pick, so it'd be quite an interesting development if so.
I'm pretty sure that plan is to hold the top two picks for ransom and force people to pay it out the ass like Shitcago, if not, then just pick Gonzalez and Zakuani, or Frei and just sit on them because we can, they won't cost anything

mighty_torontofc_2008
01-15-2009, 11:01 PM
Fine by me. Alot of people here seem to be big on Dunivant but I remember him turning the ball over time after time after time after... well you get the idea.

On a side note, something in my gut tells me an unexpected player will be moved. Im thinking Barrett, Guevara or Smith.
Why I don't know.. just a strange feeling that someone "big" will go. We'll see.


How many times did Brennan give up the ball and he;'s still around?
if that some has to go why Not brennan? nationalistic emotions aside,
we would be better off with some else, IMHO.:eek: