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SweetOwnGoal
01-05-2009, 12:09 AM
This (http://24thminute.blogspot.com/2009/01/is-dero-worth-schelotto.html)is pretty solid information.

Management can make a easy target sometimes, but I do understand the tough questions that they must have to answer with this. Is DeRo worth $600k? How do you work the contract to also allow for a DP (allocation works for this season, but allocation has an expiry date)? How many years do you sign him for?

Our fanboy crushes on the man likely doesn't help the team's position...

TFC07
01-05-2009, 12:14 AM
That pretty much explains everything of why there has been no press conference for DeRo.

Yohan
01-05-2009, 12:15 AM
So, if this true, my question is, why did Mo trigger the trade without having DeRo's signature on a contract?
Well, DeRo is already on a contract but still. Would have saved a lot of headache if DeRo's signature was on a new deal before the trade

Nodoubtguy
01-05-2009, 12:17 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't Dero have a new contract with MLS for 400k??

Cambridge_Red
01-05-2009, 12:17 AM
Yeah I saw this coming...fuck...

dantdot
01-05-2009, 12:19 AM
Sources?

Phil
01-05-2009, 12:20 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't Dero have a new contract with MLS for 400k??

His contract is with the MLS as is all players. Keeping him happy is another story but I am optimistic!

Cambridge_Red
01-05-2009, 12:20 AM
Oviosuly its not 100% concrete http://24thminute.blogspot.com/2009/01/is-dero-worth-schelotto.html

It would make sense though...

gmacpheetfc
01-05-2009, 12:22 AM
^ Would that count towards our salary cap or would it still be 325?

Nodoubtguy
01-05-2009, 12:23 AM
His contract is with the MLS as is all players. Keeping him happy is another story but I am optimistic!

But my point is that he's under contract. He's playing here.....just a matter of if we can lock him for for a longer period. Any idea how long his current contact is?

gmacpheetfc
01-05-2009, 12:25 AM
1 more year i believe

SweetOwnGoal
01-05-2009, 12:28 AM
Sources?

Pretty good ones that have no reason to lie about it.

To be clear, everyone is saying that it will get done. It just might take a while more yet.

East Ham
01-05-2009, 12:31 AM
yeah expires in 2010 i think

TorCanSoc
01-05-2009, 12:34 AM
Best signing for TFC ever, and its not a completed deal. So can he walk if he's not happy with the numbers?

East Ham
01-05-2009, 12:36 AM
they d own his rights and could sell em i think but that wont ever happen he wants to play in t.o.

S_D
01-05-2009, 01:04 AM
Dero wants 600K

ouch...for a guy that got a grand total of 9 points last season and wants to earn the same as Schelotto who got 7 goals and 19 assists? I hope TFC management gives their head a shake.

Skinner
01-05-2009, 01:08 AM
It will get done...just a matter of time is all. The man has earned the right to negotiate a better deal. He's is without a doubt one of the all time greats in MLS history...no need to list the accomplishments, they are well documented. By mid April we will have forgotten this little hiccup while singing his name in glory.

Shakes McQueen
01-05-2009, 01:17 AM
Best signing for TFC ever, and its not a completed deal. So can he walk if he's not happy with the numbers?

He is still under a contract - he just wants a new one, according to this.

I really don't get how DeRo thinks he is worth 600K, however. He just inked a deal with Houston not too long ago, for far less than this. What gives? Is he trying to use his perceived hero worship to bend the club over a stump?

I think DeRo is a terrific footballer, but as I've said every time the subject of him in Toronto has come up - he absolutely is NOT worth DP money. If Mo finds a way to cook the books so we can use allocation money, or some other means (ala Schellotto) to sign him to the deal he wants, then great. Using our DP slot on the guy is just not worth it.

Of course, the other possibility is that Mo never was looking for an actual DP player, and DeRo is going to be the DP for the forseeable future. This would be a shame, because we really need a marquee striker and/or defender.

Personally, I hope this is not true. I will be disappointed in DeRo if he is demanding this kind of money from TFC, to come home as a hero and play football, after just signing a deal for way less in Houston. It would be a somewhat sad statement on his actual excitement in coming home to Toronto.

Then there is the practical fact that DeRo isn't exactly on the upswing of his career. He is still top-notch, but his statistical production has declined somewhat... and yet he wants MORE money? And not even a little more money - almost a 50% raise over his current salary!

- Scott

TorCanSoc
01-05-2009, 01:17 AM
^ true that!

VPjr
01-05-2009, 02:29 AM
DeRo is no dummy. He knows that TFC stands to gain an even bigger boost in profile with his presence on the team (there are not a lot of Canadian soccer "stars" but he's one of them and he's a T.O. boy to boot). It's only natural he'll be wanting to re-negotiate his deal.

In Houston, he was the flashiest player on a very good team. He signed for what he was worth to THAT team.

At TFC, he's the highest profile Canadian-bred footballer playing in North America, and now he is playing on Canada's highest profile team. He'll be living under a bigger microscope in a bigger media market (especially as far as soccer is concerned). He is naturally worth more to TFC than to Dynamo in a pure business sense.

If I had to make an educated guess, I'd say that TFC and DeRo will split the difference regarding money he wants and money they're willing to offer. If the team doesn't bridge the gap to make him happy, don't be surprised if the only time we see DeRo in team colours is when he steps on the pitch for games and practices. I'm not sure he's the type who will be overly anxious to be the club's new shiny poster boy if the club isn't willing to show some love by handing over some extra allocation money this year and a nice contract extension and decent raise for 2 more years.

I can understand some fans might be disappointed by this but DeRo has to take care of himself first, IMHO. These guys aren't making millions in MLS. He's making about the same as the rookie minimum in Major League Baseball and he's one of MLS' biggest stars. He needs to look out for his future. I might not like to look at it that way but that's life in pro sports. I have no doubt he's thrilled to be home (except for having to play on that flat turf we've got a BMO) but business is business. Any fan who chooses idealism in an unideal world will only end up feeling disappointment.

RedRum
01-05-2009, 02:54 AM
That extra 200k has to come from somewhere. No big deal, just forget about Serioux or a quality CB and bring back the Geico Caveman from Montreal.

Stryker
01-05-2009, 03:38 AM
I think I feel sick to my stomach.
Other players are taking less money to stay and try to help make the team better and he comes in and says "yeah I want a 50% raise even though my point totals have been steadily declining over the last 4 seasons".
I was gonna get a DeRO jersey but if he wants that much then forget him.

VPjr
01-05-2009, 04:16 AM
That extra 200k has to come from somewhere. No big deal, just forget about Serioux or a quality CB and bring back the Geico Caveman from Montreal.


it's called ALLOCATION money. doesn't count against the cap.

same deal that Schellotto has apparently.

Big Bruva
01-05-2009, 07:37 AM
Dero wants 600K

ouch...for a guy that got a grand total of 9 points last season and wants to earn the same as Schelotto who got 7 goals and 19 assists? I hope TFC management gives their head a shake.

lol this is what makes me laugh coz now some are really starting to see the facts and get over the hype of DeRo actually coming from a Canadian point of view.

I have heard Amado this and Rohan makes that and more but facts show both Amado and Rohan had 4 assists and 4 goals so 8 points each and DeRo with a better team had 7 goals and 2 assists (shocked DeRo only had 2 assists) now im not a huge fan of this whole stat thing coz thats more of a north american thing and i feel stats dont always show exactly what the player gives for example im sure DeRo got fouled which led to goals etc coz i know the likes of Ricketts did or Amado made a brilliant pass which eventualy led to a goal but im just going by stats.

Hopefully Mo sorts out everyones contract where by they are happy and it done asap coz the longer it drags on the worse for the whole team.

BuSaPuNk
01-05-2009, 07:39 AM
^ Couldn't agree more Bruva!! DeRo does much more than it shows in the stats. I just want this done. Who cares how much it costs. The longer this drags on the worse it is.

Big Bruva
01-05-2009, 07:40 AM
It will get done...just a matter of time is all. The man has earned the right to negotiate a better deal. He's is without a doubt one of the all time greats in MLS history...no need to list the accomplishments, they are well documented. By mid April we will have forgotten this little hiccup while singing his name in glory.

Brilliant point, DeRo has earned the right to negotiate the best contract he can get and im sure he is doing so, he will obviously be using the fact that the hype of the 2nd best Canadian player is coming home to play and that he was such a big target and that it would work in TFC's favour if he played here to his advantage and will ask for more money than he would elsewhere.

Big Bruva
01-05-2009, 07:49 AM
Exactly, i really think a lot of people have the wrong idea about footy players, basically every player has money as a top priority if not top then very high when deciding if they are going to play somewhere unless you get to certain players level and at the end of your career when you ay choose to play somewhere hot and take less money but MOST MLS players are nowhere near that level to be over thinking that and thats DeRo included.

DeRo will be excited to play again in his home town but he will be trying to get the most money possible.



DeRo is no dummy. He knows that TFC stands to gain an even bigger boost in profile with his presence on the team (there are not a lot of Canadian soccer "stars" but he's one of them and he's a T.O. boy to boot). It's only natural he'll be wanting to re-negotiate his deal.

In Houston, he was the flashiest player on a very good team. He signed for what he was worth to THAT team.

At TFC, he's the highest profile Canadian-bred footballer playing in North America, and now he is playing on Canada's highest profile team. He'll be living under a bigger microscope in a bigger media market (especially as far as soccer is concerned). He is naturally worth more to TFC than to Dynamo in a pure business sense.

If I had to make an educated guess, I'd say that TFC and DeRo will split the difference regarding money he wants and money they're willing to offer. If the team doesn't bridge the gap to make him happy, don't be surprised if the only time we see DeRo in team colours is when he steps on the pitch for games and practices. I'm not sure he's the type who will be overly anxious to be the club's new shiny poster boy if the club isn't willing to show some love by handing over some extra allocation money this year and a nice contract extension and decent raise for 2 more years.

I can understand some fans might be disappointed by this but DeRo has to take care of himself first, IMHO. These guys aren't making millions in MLS. He's making about the same as the rookie minimum in Major League Baseball and he's one of MLS' biggest stars. He needs to look out for his future. I might not like to look at it that way but that's life in pro sports. I have no doubt he's thrilled to be home (except for having to play on that flat turf we've got a BMO) but business is business. Any fan who chooses idealism in an unideal world will only end up feeling disappointment.

ensco
01-05-2009, 07:51 AM
This must have started in Houston, as Houston were making noises about wading into the DP market before DeRo got traded. DeRo probably said "you've got to take care of me if you're bringing in other high priced guys".

Kinnear decided he wasn't worth it. It explains why he was moved, and why the price for him was so low.

Eastend
01-05-2009, 08:21 AM
Don't we all think we're worth a lot more to our employer then our employer thinks?

BakaGaijin
01-05-2009, 08:29 AM
Exactly, i really think a lot of people have the wrong idea about footy players, basically every player has money as a top priority if not top then very high when deciding if they are going to play somewhere unless you get to certain players level and at the end of your career when you ay choose to play somewhere hot and take less money but MOST MLS players are nowhere near that level to be over thinking that and thats DeRo included.

DeRo will be excited to play again in his home town but he will be trying to get the most money possible.


That's a shame.

Too many greedy bastards in this world already.

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 08:40 AM
That's a shame.

Too many greedy bastards in this world already.

If you were considered one of the best in your profession, would you not demand money equal to or at least similar to the top paid people if you were to switch companies?

Remember, it is just a game but for the players, it is their job.

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 08:44 AM
As an aside, do you think DeRo is as valuble as someone like Schelletto? A player who was considered the best in the league last year and was offered a contract of what, $650k? I'd say since DeRo has more potential years left in his prime than GBS does in his career, he's almost worth as much.

My $0.02 anyway.

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 09:28 AM
Alright, one last little tidbit to get some people riled up. ;) A quote from a blog about people's recent criticism of Berbatov, that I though applied quite well to this board. :lol:



The laughable criticism of Dimitar doesn't come from the majority of true United fans who understand football. Most true supporters simply ignore the meaningless and/or malevolent comments on message boards, as it’s neither feasible nor desirable to respond to everyone who criticises him.

True fans only want to see their club succeed and are supportive during difficult times, too; they don't constantly attack a new player because they like someone else better, especially when their club is winning all major trophies. If in doubt, look at Liverpool fans' support of Robbie Keane (whose stats and performances for his new club are not as positive as Berba's).

Parkdale
01-05-2009, 09:30 AM
Simple - give him what he wants and then hold him accountable.
If he fails to produce, then we'll talk about it.

Beach_Red
01-05-2009, 09:30 AM
That's a shame.

Too many greedy bastards in this world already.

No, it's not greed.

For athletes the earning years are upside down - most of us start a job in our twenties and work up slowly so that by our late forties and fifties we're at our earning peak - many people make the best money of their lives their final five years in the workplace and that helps with their pensions. It seems like these athletes make a lot of money, but over a full working career a lot of guys on this board will make a lot more money than most MLS players will over their working careers.

Athletes earn most of their money at the beginning of their careers - and then start over again learning to coach or work in the media or something but usually not making as much money.

People ask for the most they can, and settle for what they can get.

Now, there are plenty of greedy sports agents willing to sacrifice players to make more money faster, but that's a different discussion.

Roogsy
01-05-2009, 09:35 AM
I agree with Shaughno ( :eek: ) and Beach Red...this isn't about greed as much as it is about business. DeRo sees an opportunity to secure more money as a marquee player in the league and nobody should blame him if he does. The man played through some of the leanest years in MLS, paid his dues and is now looking at what it will take to secure his future after retirement.

That being said...DeRo is NOT worth DP money. While a raise may be in order...I hope Mo realizes this and doesn't break the bank on him. He needs to hold some sort of a line and say "yeah, here's a little extra dough for you but forget this 600k nonsense".

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 09:35 AM
Very good point Beach. I'd say that agents are the major reason why sports athletes get paid so much, because the bigger the fee, the bigger the cut they get. Simple greedy math right there.

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 09:36 AM
Roogsy, Mo could technically (depending on how much allocations we still have) pay him $400k and then use an allocation on him for whatever else they decide on. So he doesn't have to be a DP.

MG42
01-05-2009, 09:37 AM
maybe he wants the extra $$$ to compensate for having to play on the turf?

torfchamilton
01-05-2009, 09:37 AM
Any accountants out there? What's the take home pay for $325K living in the US and $325K living in Canada. I know it depends on State etc, but any ideas?

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 09:43 AM
maybe he wants the extra $$$ to compensate for having to play on the turf?


Or maybe he wants compensation for being underpaid while consistantly being one of the top players in the league? ;)

S_D
01-05-2009, 09:43 AM
As an aside, do you think DeRo is as valuble as someone like Schelletto? A player who was considered the best in the league last year and was offered a contract of what, $650k? I'd say since DeRo has more potential years left in his prime than GBS does in his career, he's almost worth as much.

My $0.02 anyway.


Dero as valuable to Schelotto? On the field....not a chance. The stats speak for themselves.

Off the field though I think Dero is much more important to TFC...homegrown boy and all.

What concerns me the most is Dero's massive decline in points etc over the past 2 seasons. Is it due to him being pissed for not getting a load more cash, him being played as more of a withdrawn striker rather than and AM or is he just losing it.

If there was no salary cap..sure pay whatever you want, but if the guy can't or has shown that he hasn't been able to perform up to his potential, overpaying will hurt TFC.

Now rumour has it that TFC has around 800K left in allocation cash.

So say Dero gets what he wants, the 600K
- 200k goes to him from allocation, 400K against the cap.

TFC wants a DP
- 400K against the cap, and allocation cash buys down the amount paid.

fine and dandy...but what happens next season. If TFC makes the playoffs in '09 then we lose the allocation cash for sucking, and we don't have the Edu sale anymore.

To make up for that and to keep the team together, either a player will have to be sold, we pray for an increase in salary cap, or hope that a few players retire and are replaced with cheaper options.

MG42
01-05-2009, 09:45 AM
Or maybe he wants compensation for being underpaid while consistantly being one of the top players in the league? ;)


LOL or that too :)

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 09:50 AM
Dero as valuable to Schelotto? On the field....not a chance. The stats speak for themselves.

Off the field though I think Dero is much more important to TFC...homegrown boy and all.

What concerns me the most is Dero's massive decline in points etc over the past 2 seasons. Is it due to him being pissed for not getting a load more cash, him being played as more of a withdrawn striker rather than and AM or is he just losing it.

If there was no salary cap..sure pay whatever you want, but if the guy can't or has shown that he hasn't been able to perform up to his potential, overpaying will hurt TFC.

Now rumour has it that TFC has around 800K left in allocation cash.

So say Dero gets what he wants, the 600K
- 200k goes to him from allocation, 400K against the cap.

TFC wants a DP
- 400K against the cap, and allocation cash buys down the amount paid.

fine and dandy...but what happens next season. If TFC makes the playoffs in '09 then we lose the allocation cash for sucking, and we don't have the Edu sale anymore.

To make up for that and to keep the team together, either a player will have to be sold, we pray for an increase in salary cap, or hope that a few players retire and are replaced with cheaper options.


Read what I said, DeRo is ONE of the best players in the league and IMO is worth ALMOST as much as GBS.

To be honest, despite his comments to the press about being happy in Houston the last two years, I don't think he has been ever since he had the negotiation problems with Houston.

Pigfynn
01-05-2009, 09:54 AM
What concerns me more than what we pay Dero is what will be left for a proven striker. Make no mistake guys, we need a striker badly.

S_D
01-05-2009, 09:54 AM
Or maybe he wants compensation for being underpaid while consistantly being one of the top players in the league? ;)

Well the last 2 seasons have shown he isn't anymore. I don't blame Dero for trying to get more cash though.

It shouldn't be TFC's problem that he got underpaid while he was with Houston and SJ earlier in his career when he was better.

Now what I would find totally acceptable is Dero getting an incentive laden contract that includes both team and personal goals, or perhaps find the guy a sponsor.

Dero..you want to get paid like a DP, then lets see you perform like one and have the impact on the team that I hope you will have :)

TorontoBlades
01-05-2009, 09:57 AM
If TFC is ever going to be successful in a salary cap world. They need to be the team that players earn future higher salaries on, ie Edu, rather than the team that has to pay a salary for a players past accomplishments with another club.

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 09:57 AM
Hey I'm not disputing that, nor saying we should just up and pay him what he's asking. Simply providing another perspective instead of everyone jumping on the negative OMFG bandwagon. ;)

TorontoBlades
01-05-2009, 10:00 AM
To add to my point - I've stated this point years back when 95% of you where being cynical of the MLS and TFC support, but:

TFC needs to emulate clubs like Lyon and Sporting, rather then some of the other super clubs you'd rather them be

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 10:04 AM
To add to my point - I've stated this point years back when 95% of you where being cynical of the MLS and TFC support, but:

TFC needs to emulate clubs like Lyon and Sporting, rather then some of the other super clubs you'd rather them be


Agreed, also I'd much rather build from the youth up than continue to buy older players with little to no future. Pickups like Ibrahim and Johann Smith to me, are crucial as they can be slotted in when needed, but are still being groomed to their potentials.

flatpicker
01-05-2009, 10:14 AM
gee wiz... I hope the salary cap goes up next year!

I'm starting to feel uncertain about bringing in a DP striker now.
If they find a way to fit it into the budget without hurting the team then great.
But if not, I'm not bothered if DeRo is our "De facto DP" and we find a decent non-DP striker to play with him.

BakaGaijin
01-05-2009, 10:20 AM
If you were considered one of the best in your profession, would you not demand money equal to or at least similar to the top paid people if you were to switch companies?

Remember, it is just a game but for the players, it is their job.

Not necessarily. I am not driven by greed.

You must be in favour of the Wall Street CEO's making $100 million dollars as well. They are simply the best in business, demanding similiar wages, no? Even if they are partially responsible for the greatest economic collapse of the last 75 years........

To clarify, my point was not about Dero specifically, but the nature of high paid sports atheletes in general.........and their agents.

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 10:35 AM
Not necessarily. I am not driven by greed.

You must be in favour of the Wall Street CEO's making $100 million dollars as well. They are simply the best in business, demanding similiar wages, no? Even if they are partially responsible for the greatest economic collapse of the last 75 years........

To clarify, my point was not about Dero specifically, but the nature of high paid sports atheletes in general.........and their agents.


;)


Very good point Beach. I'd say that agents are the major reason why sports athletes get paid so much, because the bigger the fee, the bigger the cut they get. Simple greedy math right there.

As for your point about the money, I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm simply saying that is the way the business works, and you'd be a fool to simply 'pass it up' because of good moral values.

SweetOwnGoal
01-05-2009, 10:37 AM
A few things to think about:

1) At the height of DeRo's career in MLS -- when he was arguably the best player in the league -- he made about $130,000. He was undoubtedly the best bargain in MLS. I can't blame him for wanting a deal that will allow him to take care of himself...

2) Stats are generally a stupid way to look at soccer and they are especially stupid way to look at DeRo. Understand that opposing teams have been pretty much shadowing DeRo the last few years. Although his numbers have dropped, it's impossible to say how much the increased room for others has contributed to Houston's success. The Dynamo have won two of the last three MLS Cups and have finished near the top of the league every year. We won't really know how much of that was DeRo until 2009 is well underway.

3) DeRo's thing has always been his game breaking ability. He plays best when the stakes are the highest. In a league that determines its champion in a playoff that's a nice thing to have. Take a look at the highlights of DeRo's last ever game for Houston against Firpo for a spot in the CONCACAF Champions League quarters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvJPW7PhLsI Watch the first 90 seconds, which are first half highlights, then skip ahaed to listen to the comments at 3:25.

I sure as hell would have liked DeRo on the pitch on July 22...

Beach_Red
01-05-2009, 10:43 AM
;)

As for your point about the money, I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm simply saying that is the way the business works, and you'd be a fool to simply 'pass it up' because of good moral values.

And you'd have to be okay with the fact that the owners will simply add it to their profits - if we're talking sports teams. Banking, in normal conditions, it should be up to the shareholders.

I've never had a problem with people asking for more - this isn't Oliver Twist, afterall. I don't like people trying to renegotiate deals they once agreed on, but that's not exactly what's going on here.

We've known all along that we'd have to pay a premium for Canadian players because of the roster rules - they're worth more to TFC than to other teams and their agents know this. It's not right to expect a professional to limit what he can make in his paying years.

Stryker
01-05-2009, 10:43 AM
Just sent off an email to my boss explaining how the tile flooring in my office is hard on my knees and that Im very popular in my workplace.
Told him I expected a 50% pay increase.
Can't wait to spend all that extra cash.

DigzTFC!
01-05-2009, 11:05 AM
He's paid in american as well....so 600K is more like 710K. Very upsetting. For those who want him as a captain....now you know why he's never been one

Lucky Strike
01-05-2009, 11:08 AM
It'd probably be breaking some rule somewhere but it seems to me the easiest way around a salary cap is for the team to get goodies and luxuries for its players, like some of the bigger clubs do already (though they are not subjected to a salary cap). Couldn’t TFC contribute the extra 200K per year towards a house or something? I’m sure there is some loophole somewhere…

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 11:08 AM
He's paid in american as well....so 600K is more like 710K. Very upsetting. For those who want him as a captain....now you know why he's never been one


Because like most players, he's renegotiating a contract? I fail to see why this would prevent him from being a captain. What exactly is upsetting about a player asking for more money near the end of his contract? It happens all the time in sports.

Everyone in the league is paid in American, you can't take that into effect at all.

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 11:10 AM
It'd probably be breaking some rule somewhere but it seems to me the easiest way around a salary cap is for the team to get goodies and luxuries for its players, like some of the bigger clubs do already (though they are not subjected to a salary cap). Couldn’t TFC contribute the extra 200K per year towards a house or something? I’m sure there is some loophole somewhere…


I believe it's more like, they can use him for commercials, promo's, etc. and then he'll make more money without it being paid by the league. IMO, I think that's how we secured Ricketts as I doubt he would have taken the salary he has without some incentives.

Beach_Red
01-05-2009, 11:14 AM
Because like most players, he's renegotiating a contract? I fail to see why this would prevent him from being a captain. What exactly is upsetting about a player asking for more money near the end of his contract? It happens all the time in sports.


Really. You want a captain who's a yes-man to management or you want one who stands up?

flatpicker
01-05-2009, 11:15 AM
I believe it's more like, they can use him for commercials, promo's, etc. and then he'll make more money without it being paid by the league. IMO, I think that's how we secured Ricketts as I doubt he would have taken the salary he has without some incentives.

perhaps some advertising wing of MLSE pays him to do the Rollin' with Ricketts segments...
Clever bastards!

BakaGaijin
01-05-2009, 11:21 AM
He's paid in american as well....so 600K is more like 710K. Very upsetting. For those who want him as a captain....now you know why he's never been one

Not for too much longer. The way the American government is printing money (and it will only get worse once the Obama stimulus is implemented) the U.S. dollar will fall through the floor. They are going to be hit with substantial inflation this year. Foreign governments are starting to realize that the U.S. cannot pay back their debt and will stop lending to them.

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 11:22 AM
Really. You want a captain who's a yes-man to management or you want one who stands up?

I want a captain who leads the team on the field, first and foremost. If DeRo does that, fine, if not? Fine. I'm not saying he should be captain or not, I'm just saying that renegotiating a contract after switching teams and coming to the end of his current one, shouldn't be a deciding factor in whether or not he's captain material.

Roogsy
01-05-2009, 11:23 AM
^ That's why I am out of the US!

Along that thought...if something catastrophic like that DOES happen to the U$...that is bad news for MLS and any attempts to bring over international players.

Just another reason however why I am against a unified North American currency.

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 11:24 AM
That and who wants a currency called the North American Dollar aka NAD :rofl:

Yo, can I borrow some NADS? :rofl:

giambac
01-05-2009, 11:27 AM
Dero wants 600K

ouch...for a guy that got a grand total of 9 points last season and wants to earn the same as Schelotto who got 7 goals and 19 assists? I hope TFC management gives their head a shake.

This deal, this trade, isn't looking so good afterall.:eek:

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 11:28 AM
Hello negativity, long time no see! :D

Beach_Red
01-05-2009, 11:33 AM
^ That's why I am out of the US!

Along that thought...if something catastrophic like that DOES happen to the U$...that is bad news for MLS and any attempts to bring over international players.

Just another reason however why I am against a unified North American currency.

Hey, if something like that happens to the US it's bad for everybody. Unified currency or not, when the biggest consumer stops spending, everyone loses.

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 11:35 AM
Ok, enough politics please. :D

Stryker
01-05-2009, 11:35 AM
Simple - give him what he wants and then hold him accountable.
If he fails to produce, then we'll talk about it.

Exactly how do you do that? Once he's signed the contract the moneys in the bank regardless if he scores 1 goal in 30 starts.
What are you gonna do, guilt him into giving money back if he performs poorly?

Lucky Strike
01-05-2009, 11:35 AM
That and who wants a currency called the North American Dollar aka NAD :rofl:

Yo, can I borrow some NADS? :rofl:

Hahahaha, made my morning! Yes, a currency partnership with the U.S will never work because of the disproportionate influence the U.S. would have in such a union (unlike the Eurozone where there is no such gigantor). Economically and politically, it's just not feasible.

Anyway, getting back to DeRo, the biggest problem seems to be to figure how to fit in DeRo, a DP with a cap that may shrink next year.

Before you jump on me saying that won't happen, I'm saying that the MLS cap will likely increase from the current $2.3 million to "X" (say $2.5 million - reflects typical increases from the past seasons) but with allocation money, the TFC cap would be $3.3 million for 2009 (currently taking the common figure of 800K) but as we know that expires next year, effectively meaning a likely net cap shrink for TFC. Of course, we also know that the CBA will be renegotiated at the end of 2009 which could see a substantial increase in the MLS cap, but there's no guarantee. Mo can't and shouldn't count on that. But if anyone can figure it out, it's him.

rocker
01-05-2009, 11:37 AM
DeRo should get whatever he can get.
If it were me, I'd want to get as much as I could get.
Nobody here would settle for less than they think they're worth in a job.

Throw him some allocation money.. it expires anyways, so you gotta use it. Mo has more than enough allocation to get a DP, knock down Dichio/Robbo against the cap, and still keep DeRo satisfied. I just want this to get solved quickly so I can see my DeRo press conference!!!

arbogast
01-05-2009, 11:37 AM
How about the TAX issue?

There's no state income tax in Texas, Here he'll lose 40% of his pay to federal and provincial income tax. By doubiling his salary he's basically making the same amount

Pigfynn
01-05-2009, 11:40 AM
How about the TAX issue?

There's no state income tax in Texas, Here he'll lose 40% of his pay to federal and provincial income tax. By doubiling his salary he's basically making the same amount

Good point. Plus, if you figure the turf issue, plus the starting again in new city thing (yes, even if it is his home town there are costs involved) and you can see what's going on a little clearer.

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 11:41 AM
Good point. Plus, if you figure the turf issue, plus the starting again in new city thing (yes, even if it is his home town there are costs involved) and you can see what's going on a little clearer.


NO WAY MAN! DeRo doesn't deserve the money, it makes him greedy and therefore shouldn't be captain! Duh. ;)

Pigfynn
01-05-2009, 11:43 AM
It's really kind of sick that someone with Dero's ability doesn't make at least 600k already! If this was ANY other league in the world....well, everyone knows the rest of that thought....I'll shut up.

Stryker
01-05-2009, 11:49 AM
Do MLS contracts allow for a bonus structure?
Im thinking $400,000 base salary with 2.5% per point.

8 goals 2 assists = $500 000
13 goals 8 assists = $610 000

Bonuses to be paid with allocation money.
I think we could all be happy with that.

BakaGaijin
01-05-2009, 11:51 AM
Hey, if something like that happens to the US it's bad for everybody. Unified currency or not, when the biggest consumer stops spending, everyone loses.

Sure, when the biggest consumer stops spending it's going to affect the global economy........however, when the biggest consumer spends much more money than it actual has, then it makes a bad situation even worse by creating an atificial bubble that eventually has to pop..........which is where we are now.

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 11:54 AM
Since when is this thread about the US economy?

BakaGaijin
01-05-2009, 11:56 AM
Since when is this thread about the US economy?

Since it got hijacked.

;)

Pigfynn
01-05-2009, 11:58 AM
So, ok if we give him 600k that's $11,538 USD a week over 52 weeks which is how they calculate wages in England. I think 11k USD a week is like 8 thousand pounds a week right? That's like league one money over there, is it not?

Brutal.

James17930
01-05-2009, 12:12 PM
To all these people who are complaining about DeRo's declining point totals the last two years . . .

GO FUCK YOURSELVES

Are you all fucking mental? His production has been declining because his heart has been yearning to come to TFC. He's been stuck in Houston these last two years, but his head and heart have been in Toronto. I imagine it was incredibly hard to play for that team when deep down inside he was already a member of TFC.

Pay him whatever can be arranged, hold him up and high and watch him light it up this season.

I really can't believe how concerned some of you are about other people's money. Fucking Canadians.

P.s. All of the above was said in a nice, joking way :D

Beach_Red
01-05-2009, 12:13 PM
Sure, when the biggest consumer stops spending it's going to affect the global economy........however, when the biggest consumer spends much more money than it actual has, then it makes a bad situation even worse by creating an atificial bubble that eventually has to pop..........which is where we are now.

The way addicts and their dealers are all addicted and need each other - this cold turkey isn't fun.

Anyway, I'm sure the clever accountants at MLSE can work out a deal with DeRo so that after taxes he isn't losing any money coming here.

Shakes McQueen
01-05-2009, 12:14 PM
To the people citing how this kind of cash is peanuts in other leagues - other leagues don't matter. 600k is a ton of money for an MLS player. Other leagues don't have a salary cap hovering around $2 million dollars.

While I think he is within his rights to certainly demand a new deal - that doesn't make it right. As someone else pointed out, sports are different in real life, in that you make the majority of your money when you are young, not old. DeRo's production has slipped in the past few years, and yet now he wants more than he has ever made before?

Sure, he can ask for it - but it isn't right.

If MLS didn't have a salary cap, then I would fully support paying him whatever he wants. But the more he asks for, the more it hurts TFC's ability to add quality players around him.

I supported bringing him in at the league maximum, because of the intangible value he brought to the club. But when you go asking for a 50% raise, it is time to start taking a hard look at the tangibles. And the reality is that while still great, DeRo is not producing as much as he used to - yet now wants to bend his hometown club over a stump for a huge increase in salary.

As I said before, I hope this story isn't true. And if it is, I hope Mo finds a solution that makes DeRo happy, while allowing the club some spending mobility. But he is certainly starting off on the wrong foot with me.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
01-05-2009, 12:19 PM
Are you all fucking mental? His production has been declining because his heart has been yearning to come to TFC. He's been stuck in Houston these last two years, but his head and heart have been in Toronto. I imagine it was incredibly hard to play for that team hen deep down inside he was already a member of TFC.

There is absolutely NOTHING to back up this assertion. Many of us would like to believe this is the case, but many of us also know that it is completely normal for a footballers statistics to begin declining once they enter their 30's.

Could DeRo get a second wind in Toronto? Of course he could. Is he still a great player? Absolutely. But giving him ludicrous amounts of money, because we are waxing poetic about how he was really TFC player all long, isn't useful.

If he comes to TFC, and sets the world on fire again - THEN we can talk about increasing his salary by 200k.


I really can't believe how concerned some of you are about other people's money. Fucking Canadians.

I don't care about MLSE's money - I care about salary cap restrictions on my club. Perfectly reasonable.

- Scott

BakaGaijin
01-05-2009, 12:24 PM
Anyway, I'm sure the clever accountants at MLSE can work out a deal with DeRo so that after taxes he isn't losing any money coming here.

MLSE is owned by some big corporations....perhaps they can work out some kind of pre-packed endorsement deal with one of them...

H Bomb
01-05-2009, 12:35 PM
Do footballers really get worse when they hit 30? Some do sure, but why do I so often here that over 30 = bad. IMO 28-29 is the best age for a footballer, when their brains finally catch up to their feet. (this is not including the freaks...of which MLS has zero) The guy is 30 and has a reason to be "up" for the season. The extra 200K does not affect the cap and doesn't kill us with Allocation. Are we all just looking for a reason to bitch or am I out of touch?

And whoever said Dero should be our captain...we have 2 guys ahead of him on the pecking order for that.

Oblio2
01-05-2009, 12:39 PM
He's trying to get the most he can...Mehh...good for him. It's no different than any other player trying to get the most for themselves. Why not go for a big slice of pie, MLSE/TFC are gonna market the crap outta him so, he wants his share.
Do I think he's a $600k player? No.
If MLSE/TFC want to pay that....go for it. id rather have a happy ReRo here than not. Split the difference and settle on $500k and enjoy your time in TO.

James17930
01-05-2009, 12:44 PM
There is absolutely NOTHING to back up this assertion. Many of us would like to believe this is the case, but many of us also know that it is completely normal for a footballers statistics to begin declining once they enter their 30's.

Could DeRo get a second wind in Toronto? Of course he could. Is he still a great player? Absolutely. But giving him ludicrous amounts of money, because we are waxing poetic about how he was really TFC player all long, isn't useful.

If he comes to TFC, and sets the world on fire again - THEN we can talk about increasing his salary by 200k.



I don't care about MLSE's money - I care about salary cap restrictions on my club. Perfectly reasonable.

- Scott

To my knowledge, anything with allocation money wouldn't count against the cap, so that doesn't matter.

rocker
01-05-2009, 12:49 PM
To my knowledge, anything with allocation money wouldn't count against the cap, so that doesn't matter.


ya, there shouldn't be any worries about giving DeRo an extra 200K because it cannot come from the cap. He can't make 600K on the cap.. impossible. The extra money would have to come from allocation.
Allocation has an expiry date, so might as well use it... Mojo has lots of it.

Giving DeRo extra doesn't really have any effect on whether we can get other players.

Shakes McQueen
01-05-2009, 12:52 PM
ya, there shouldn't be any worries about giving DeRo an extra 200K because it cannot come from the cap. He can't make 600K on the cap.. impossible. The extra money would have to come from allocation.
Allocation has an expiry date, so might as well use it... Mojo has lots of it.

Giving DeRo extra doesn't really have any effect on whether we can get other players.

Depending on what his plans were for our allocation money this season, you would be correct.

- Scott

Technorgasm
01-05-2009, 12:54 PM
it's called ALLOCATION money. doesn't count against the cap.

same deal that Schellotto has apparently.


FIanlly , and I had to read a LOT until someone finally got to this ppoint.

Fact is, he is here, he is signed. Let the Fan-boy-dom continue.

He is great for the squad, and will be a vital part of of TFC Lore and Future.

- WALK ON

Oblio2
01-05-2009, 12:55 PM
FIanlly , and I had to read a LOT until someone finally got to this ppoint.

Fact is, he is here, he is signed. Let the Fan-boy-dom continue.

He is great for the squad, and will be a vital part of of TFC Lore and Future.

- WALK ON

Word

denime
01-05-2009, 12:55 PM
To all these people who are complaining about DeRo's declining point totals the last two years . . .

GO FUCK YOURSELVES

Are you all fucking mental? His production has been declining because his heart has been yearning to come to TFC. He's been stuck in Houston these last two years, but his head and heart have been in Toronto. I imagine it was incredibly hard to play for that team when deep down inside he was already a member of TFC.

Pay him whatever can be arranged, hold him up and high and watch him light it up this season.

I really can't believe how concerned some of you are about other people's money. Fucking Canadians.

P.s. All of the above was said in a nice, joking way :D

:iagree: with all of the above in a nice, joking way. :rolleyes:


Seriously,who are we to decide if some player is worth certain amount of MLSE money?

As far I'm concern good for him,get 5 mil. if you can DeRo.
MLSE has enough money to pay some average Hockey players 3-4 mil per year,let them bleed for soccer too,why not?Only because MLS has DP that doesn't mean he is not worth that money.

TFCREDNWHITE
01-05-2009, 01:08 PM
:iagree: with all of the above in a nice, joking way. :rolleyes:


Seriously,who are we to decide if some player is worth certain amount of MLSE money?

As far I'm concern good for him,get 5 mil. if you can DeRo.
MLSE has enough money to pay some average Hockey players 3-4 mil per year,let them bleed for soccer too,why not?Only because MLS has DP that doesn't mean he is not worth that money.

Word Up! I agree!.... I want my cake and i want to EAT it too!!!

Fuck MLS and MLSE, long live DeRo!! and the promised DP!!

tfc
01-05-2009, 01:10 PM
:iagree: with all of the above in a nice, joking way. :rolleyes:


Seriously,who are we to decide if some player is worth certain amount of MLSE money?

As far I'm concern good for him,get 5 mil. if you can DeRo.
MLSE has enough money to pay some average Hockey players 3-4 mil per year,let them bleed for soccer too,why not?Only because MLS has DP that doesn't mean he is not worth that money.

I get your point, but honestly there is no way the valuation of certain players can go up that much within MLS because of the salary cap restrictions. Players can go to other leagues and get paid more because those leagues allow it, mls doesnt, so a players wage is restricted to a reasonable portion of the cap. what i am trying to say is is dero worth 17% of our cap at $400K? maybe ... 26% at $600K? Because of the cap restrictions, its not important whether he is worth $1mm or $100K in another league, whats important is your cap hit.

Saying mlse pays joe shmo in the nhl $4mm a year even though he sucks is a terrible comparison as well because it doesn't take in to account how much of the cap he takes up. the cap is significantly higher in the nhl, its obvious crap players are going to be paid more than in mls... jeff finger makes more than our whole salary cap, but in the context of the nhl its not as glaring a salary... well, depending on your view of jeff finger ;)

bdiddy
01-05-2009, 01:15 PM
As long as DeRo is in a TFC Uniform, why do we care if its $400 or $600, or somewhere in between. We want a happy player, wanting to play here and win titles, not a player sitting there thinking that TFC nickled-and-dimed him and being annoyed.

I would have to agree that him playing in a TFC uniform with some quality players and hopefully a DP striker will help increase his point totals.

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 01:20 PM
Penny for your thoughts Paul. ;) I see you reading!

Zeke_Jones
01-05-2009, 01:20 PM
Just pay the man what he wants or bring back andrea lombardo if you wanna be cheap.

Shakes McQueen
01-05-2009, 01:23 PM
I would have to agree that him playing in a TFC uniform with some quality players and hopefully a DP striker will help increase his point totals.

Except that over-paying players, be it with cap money, or burning up our allocation, restricts our ability to add those quality players.

The mere fact that this extra money might come from our allocation, doesn't mean that this is somehow "free money". Any money we spend, be it cap or allocation, becomes money we can't spend elsewhere. Simple equation.

- Scott

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 01:28 PM
Except that over-paying players, be it with cap money, or burning up our allocation, restricts our ability to add those quality players.

The mere fact that this extra money might come from our allocation, doesn't mean that this is somehow "free money". Any money we spend, be it cap or allocation, becomes money we can't spend elsewhere. Simple equation.

- Scott


Assuming DeRo does want $600k. That's a maximum of $200k in allocation spent of our (assuming) $800k, leaving us a cool $600k in allocations.

Is it really THAT much of a difference? Do you really think you can find enough players to fill that $200k in allocation? And if so, does it matter if it goes to another player or DeRo?

Either way we still have to manage without the allocation next year, regardless of whether it's towards DeRo or a different player.

H Bomb
01-05-2009, 01:31 PM
Exactly. Someone is gonna get that allocation, why not the incredible good home grown guy we all love? Sometimes i just shake my head in this place. This is a complete non-issue. Are we bitching his dental plan isn't good enough too?

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 01:33 PM
Exactly. Someone is gonna get that allocation, why not the incredible good home grown guy we all love? Sometimes i just shake my head in this place. This is a complete non-issue. Are we bitching his dental plan isn't good enough too?


I posted this earlier, thought you might like it. ;)



The laughable criticism of Dimitar doesn't come from the majority of true United fans who understand football. Most true supporters simply ignore the meaningless and/or malevolent comments on message boards, as it’s neither feasible nor desirable to respond to everyone who criticises him.

True fans only want to see their club succeed and are supportive during difficult times, too; they don't constantly attack a new player because they like someone else better, especially when their club is winning all major trophies. If in doubt, look at Liverpool fans' support of Robbie Keane (whose stats and performances for his new club are not as positive as Berba's).

Shakes McQueen
01-05-2009, 01:37 PM
Assuming DeRo does want $600k. That's a maximum of $200k in allocation spent of our (assuming) $800k, leaving us a cool $600k in allocations.

Is it really THAT much of a difference? Do you really think you can find enough players to fill that $200k in allocation? And if so, does it matter if it goes to another player or DeRo?

Either way we still have to manage without the allocation next year, regardless of whether it's towards DeRo or a different player.

In that case, paying down DeRo's salary increase with allocation becomes even less prudent, as we will find ourselves in a tight spot after next season.

I have no idea if 200k is THAT much, but according to your numbers, it is 25% of our allocation money. That isn't a small percentage.

If giving DeRo an extra 200K means that Mo somehow can't bring in another quality player to surround him - then yes, I care.

I'd just like to restate that I hope this gets worked out in a deal that makes both Mo and DeRo happy, and meets their needs. I'm just disappointed that DeRo is demanding so much more money, so soon after signing a deal for far less in Houston. This isn't a small raise - this is an absolutely gigantic one by MLS standards.

- Scott

H Bomb
01-05-2009, 01:37 PM
Yeah i read that...I let you deal with this thread most of the morning....figured you were covering the important points. But come on guys...news is coming, even if it's the draft in a few weeks...lets all slow down a little

S_D
01-05-2009, 01:40 PM
Assuming DeRo does want $600k. That's a maximum of $200k in allocation spent of our (assuming) $800k, leaving us a cool $600k in allocations.

Is it really THAT much of a difference? Do you really think you can find enough players to fill that $200k in allocation? And if so, does it matter if it goes to another player or DeRo?

Either way we still have to manage without the allocation next year, regardless of whether it's towards DeRo or a different player.

And that is the crux of the problem. You can blow the full 800K this season, the problem is 2010 if you don't have that 800K to spend again. I guess you can sell a player here or there either overseas or within the league for allocation cash, or sell some of your draft picks like L.A. has been doing.

And giving that 200K to Dero or a couple of CB's...

Difficult position that TFC is in.

Shakes McQueen
01-05-2009, 01:40 PM
Shaughno, that quote about Berbatov isn't related to this at all. There is no malevolence or ill will towards DeRo, nor are we attacking the new guy because we wanted someone else.

There are real concerns about shoveling money at a player, no matter who they are.

He is a player of immense ability, but we have a salary cap to worry about - something Manchester United and it's fans don't have to concern themselves with.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
01-05-2009, 01:41 PM
And that is the crux of the problem. You can blow the full 800K this season, the problem is 2010 if you don't have that 800K to spend again. I guess you can sell a player here or there either overseas or within the league for allocation cash, or sell some of your draft picks like L.A. has been doing.

And giving that 200K to Dero or a couple of CB's...

Difficult position that TFC is in.

EXACTLY.

- Scott

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 01:43 PM
In that case, paying down DeRo's salary increase with allocation becomes even less prudent, as we will find ourselves in a tight spot after next season.

I have no idea if 200k is THAT much, but according to your numbers, it is 25% of our allocation money. That isn't a small percentage.

If giving DeRo an extra 200K means that Mo somehow can't bring in another quality player to surround him - then yes, I care.

I'd just like to restate that I hope this gets worked out in a deal that makes both Mo and DeRo happy, and meets their needs. I'm just disappointed that DeRo is demanding so much more money, so soon after signing a deal for far less in Houston. This isn't a small raise - this is an absolutely gigantic one by MLS standards.

- Scott

I don't disagree. I mean if there is someone else on the radar, who would require that $200k to be signed, then yeah of course I'd much rather have more quality than DeRo getting an extra padded contract.

The problem is people jump all over every bit of news. We don't know what's happening on Mo's end. Maybe DeRo did ask for more money, maybe he just suggested that he thought he should be worth more. I mean realistically we have no fucking clue.

I do agree that it's a large raise, but to be honest, I thought two years ago he should have been making close to the league maximum. He made it clear that he wasn't happy making $150k and Houston reluctantly gave him a new deal. Maybe he's just asking for the actual league maximum? As I said, we really don't have a clue as to what's going on regardless how much we dissect the contract negotiations.

H Bomb
01-05-2009, 01:45 PM
And giving that 200K to Dero or a couple of CB's...


but this is false logic. the two are not related....unless you think Mo is business retarded....and that's the thing he isn't at all retarded at. We have cap space, and this allocation is there to specifically deal with situations like this

Shakes McQueen
01-05-2009, 01:47 PM
I don't disagree. I mean if there is someone else on the radar, who would require that $200k to be signed, then yeah of course I'd much rather have more quality than DeRo getting an extra padded contract.

The problem is people jump all over every bit of news. We don't know what's happening on Mo's end. Maybe DeRo did ask for more money, maybe he just suggested that he thought he should be worth more. I mean realistically we have no fucking clue.

I do agree that it's a large raise, but to be honest, I thought two years ago he should have been making close to the league maximum. He made it clear that he wasn't happy making $150k and Houston reluctantly gave him a new deal. Maybe he's just asking for the actual league maximum? As I said, we really don't have a clue as to what's going on regardless how much we dissect the contract negotiations.

I agree with all of this. I mentioned in my first response to this thread that we can't really know if this is true. I hope it isn't.

I fully support paying DeRo the league maximum, because I think he is worth that. But aside from the bargaining leverage of being a hometown hero, he did nothing last season (or the season before that), to justify a raise of 50%. Doubly so, if that raise comes at the expense of being able to bring in quality around him, which it may or may not.

- Scott

H Bomb
01-05-2009, 01:49 PM
I fully support paying DeRo the league maximum, because I think he is worth that. But aside from the bargaining leverage of being a hometown hero, he did nothing last season (or the season before that), to justify a raise of 50%. Doubly so, if that raise comes at the expense of being able to bring in quality around him, which it may or may not.

- Scott

well he did score the winning goal in the MLS cup game on a fantastic individual effort two seasons ago (15 months)

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 01:51 PM
Shaughno, that quote about Berbatov isn't related to this at all. There is no malevolence or ill will towards DeRo, nor are we attacking the new guy because we wanted someone else.

There are real concerns about shoveling money at a player, no matter who they are.

He is a player of immense ability, but we have a salary cap to worry about - something Manchester United and it's fans don't have to concern themselves with.

- Scott

It was quite relevant to the way this board operates actually. Everyone overreacts with no real reason to. I wasn't applying it directly to this thread, but the TFC section in general.

Berba is being criticized for not getting the job done, when in actual fact he is doing a hell of a lot on the pitch. DeRo is being criticized for being greedy and asking for too much money, when nobody knows what the deal on the table actually is.

As for the 800k, if we don't spend it this season then why did we pick up extra allocations at all? I ultimately want quality players in every position, but that doesn't mean that TFC is in any position to do so.

ACSertL
01-05-2009, 01:52 PM
Shaughno, that quote about Berbatov isn't related to this at all. There is no malevolence or ill will towards DeRo, nor are we attacking the new guy because we wanted someone else.

There are real concerns about shoveling money at a player, no matter who they are.

He is a player of immense ability, but we have a salary cap to worry about - something Manchester United and it's fans don't have to concern themselves with.

- Scott

I think the post about the Berbatov comments was to illustrate how fickle and downright negative supporters can be at times. Essentially we got what we wanted (De Rosario on the squad) but "we" are finding ways to be negative about it.

I think the concerns about his potential price tag are valid, but as Shaughno has stated we just don't know if we really have anything to worry about.

EDIT...And he beat me to it :lol:

Shakes McQueen
01-05-2009, 01:54 PM
well he did score the winning goal in the MLS cup game on a fantastic individual effort two seasons ago (15 months)

But does scoring one timely goal entitle a player to such an astronomical raise, in your judgment?

If the answer is yes, then there isn't really much more for you and I to talk about, haha. :D

- Scott

H Bomb
01-05-2009, 01:55 PM
1loyjm4SOa0

H Bomb
01-05-2009, 01:56 PM
But does scoring one timely goal entitle a player to such an astronomical raise, in your judgment?

If the answer is yes, then there isn't really much more for you and I to talk about, haha. :D

- Scott

no but a career of outstanding play followed by a couple average seasons where he is still vital to a championship does....but if you need to be sad you go ahead :D

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 01:56 PM
But does scoring one timely goal entitle a player to such an astronomical raise, in your judgment?

If the answer is yes, then there isn't really much more for you and I to talk about, haha. :D

- Scott


It could be said that it's a long deserved raise, regardless of how much it ends up being. ;)

The fact that he played in this league for what, 6-7 years at under the $150k mark shows his dedication to the league.

Shakes McQueen
01-05-2009, 01:57 PM
I think the post about the Berbatov comments was to illustrate how fickle and downright negative supporters can be at times. Essentially we got what we wanted (De Rosario on the squad) but "we" are finding ways to be negative about it.

I think the concerns about his potential price tag are valid, but as Shaughno has stated we just don't know if we really have anything to worry about.

EDIT...And he beat me to it :lol:

Well, to be fair, we aren't looking for things to complain about - this was allegedly a well sourced rumour, and it's the offseason. :D

The aim isn't to be negative. I'm personally just trying not to be biased by any personal fanboy inclination I have towards DeRo, when it comes to this discussion.

I hope it isn't true, and if it isn't, then I will be glad to forget about it.

- Scott

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 01:59 PM
Shakes, you might not be but there certainly ARE people who do. ;)

ACSertL
01-05-2009, 02:00 PM
Well, to be fair, we aren't looking for things to complain about - this was allegedly a well sourced rumour, and it's the offseason. :D

The aim isn't to be negative. I'm personally just trying not to be biased by any personal fanboy inclination I have towards DeRo, when it comes to this discussion.

I hope it isn't true, and if it isn't, then I will be glad to forget about it.

- Scott

I wasn't pointing the finger at you specifically, just making a sweeping statement that may or may not be factually accurate :)

Shakes McQueen
01-05-2009, 02:02 PM
Shakes, you might not be but there certainly ARE people who do. ;)

I am familiar with people who find any and every reason to bitch about the personnel of their favourite football clubs.

I got in many arguments with Gunner fans last season who wanted Wenger to let Adebayor walk, because "he missed 70% of the shots he took anyway", when the reality was that he had an incredibly productive year.

Some people will find anything to complain about.

- Scott

H Bomb
01-05-2009, 02:03 PM
but it is true....why is Dero wanting 200K a negative worthy of a 5 page thread...it wasn't reported as negative...the rumour source has said that it WILL get done....so why is it played out as a negative based on info that you are quite literally making up. No offense or anything...but what's your motivation?

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 02:04 PM
Just a fantastic post from SweetOwnGoal over on the Usec board that I think everyone needs to read.



A few things to think about:
1) At the height of DeRo's career in MLS -- when he was arguably the best player in the league -- he made about $130,000. He was undoubtedly the best bargain in MLS. I can't blame him for wanting a deal that will allow him to take care of himself...
2) Stats are generally a stupid way to look at soccer and they are especially stupid way to look at DeRo. Understand that opposing teams have been pretty much shadowing DeRo the last few years. Although his numbers have dropped, it's impossible to say how much the increased room for others has contributed to Houston's success. The Dynamo have won two of the last three MLS Cups and have finished near the top of the league every year. We won't really know how much of that was DeRo until 2009 is well underway.
3) DeRo's thing has always been his game breaking ability. He plays best when the stakes are the highest. In a league that determines its champion in a playoff that's a nice thing to have. Take a look at the highlights of DeRo's last ever game for Houston (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvJPW7PhLsI) against Firpo for a spot in the CONCACAF Champions League quarters: Watch the first 90 seconds, which are first half highlights, then skip ahead to listen to the comments at 3:25.
I sure as hell would have liked DeRo on the pitch on July 22..


For those without youtube capabilities like myself... :p
YvJPW7PhLsI

H Bomb
01-05-2009, 02:06 PM
^^ Too much real info....get it off me! Get it off me!!:D

ACSertL
01-05-2009, 02:10 PM
I think that post was on this board too.

scooter
01-05-2009, 02:11 PM
is there any actual truth to any of this?
or is this just winter bs as usual to keep things interesting
it was christmas and maybe de ro wanted to be with his family and freinds
carver is in england
maybe moe is in scotland
maybe tfc wants to announce everything when everyone is back in toronto from their holidays
but by all means have fun with this peeps

BC101
01-05-2009, 02:11 PM
I'd like to hear from Shag A ho on this topic.

SweetOwnGoal
01-05-2009, 02:12 PM
I think that post was on this board too.

It was, but it got a bit lost in the US economy talk....

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 02:13 PM
Probably, but I was just reading the Usec one and saw it. :lol:

But one thing people have to think about with DeRo. Everyone in the league knows his ability and will shadow him all the time. Typically he gets double coverage which opens up an extra player in the midfield. This will create time and space for Ricketts, Guevara and Robinson to spread the play with less pressure than before. It's the little things that get missed by a lot of armchair managers, but make so much of a difference in play.

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 02:13 PM
I'd like to hear from Shag A ho on this topic.

Eat a dick! :rofl:


It was, but it got a bit lost in the US economy talk....


Fair enough, fantastic post regardless. ;)

Shakes McQueen
01-05-2009, 02:16 PM
but it is true....why is Dero wanting 200K a negative worthy of a 5 page thread...it wasn't reported as negative...the rumour source has said that it WILL get done....so why is it played out as a negative based on info that you are quite literally making up. No offense or anything...but what's your motivation?

What information am I making up?

Money spent in one place, cannot be spent in another. That is basic logic. And for a club such as ours, that requires several new defenders, a new (possibly DP) striker, and possibly a new contract for Rohan Ricketts - shoveling money at one player hamstrings Mo's ability to bring in those necessary additions.

Is Mo planning to bring in all of those things? I have no idea, and I've already acknowledged that. Do we need them, to be competitive? Yes.

The fact that my motivations are even being questioned, because I dared to question how good this is for the club as a whole, is kind of ridiculous. I'm not Giambac.

- Scott

olegunnar
01-05-2009, 02:16 PM
but it is true....why is Dero wanting 200K a negative worthy of a 5 page thread...it wasn't reported as negative...the rumour source has said that it WILL get done....so why is it played out as a negative based on info that you are quite literally making up. No offense or anything...but what's your motivation?

I'm not going to speak for anyone else.
I'm also going to say upfront I'm estatic we got DeRo. I'm nervous that he's not as dominant as he once was (invisible in the WC campaign and starts and stops with Houston this year), but I'm still very very happy we got him.

That said, if this is about an undercontract player demenading a salary increase, then I think it's fair to call it a negative.

No one put a gun to his head and forced him to sign his contract, no one will dock his pay if he underperforms. It's not a DeRo specific argument, it's a general argument about players trying to renegotiate deals.

If a player wants more money, then sign a bigger and better deal when they can. To try and use a trade to your hometown as a bargaining chip isn't really a positive or professional way to conduct oneself

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 02:17 PM
No but you could be his brother for all I know. :p

Shakes McQueen
01-05-2009, 02:21 PM
No but you could be his brother for all I know. :p

I spent the better part of last season arguing with Giambac about why Carver and Mo were good at their jobs, so if I am his brother, it's in a "he's my evil half-brother" sort of way.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
01-05-2009, 02:22 PM
I'm not going to speak for anyone else.
I'm also going to say upfront I'm estatic we got DeRo. I'm nervous that he's not as dominant as he once was (invisible in the WC campaign and starts and stops with Houston this year), but I'm still very very happy we got him.

That said, if this is about an undercontract player demenading a salary increase, then I think it's fair to call it a negative.

No one put a gun to his head and forced him to sign his contract, no one will dock his pay if he underperforms. It's not a DeRo specific argument, it's a general argument about players trying to renegotiate deals.

If a player wants more money, then sign a bigger and better deal when they can. To try and use a trade to your hometown as a bargaining chip isn't really a positive or professional way to conduct oneself

I hope you've got a bunker in your basement, because the cavalry is coming for you now too. :D
- Scott

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 02:24 PM
I spent the better part of last season arguing with Giambac about why Carver and Mo were good at their jobs, so if I am his brother, it's in a "he's my evil half-brother" sort of way.

- Scott


haha I know just bustin' your balls ;)

SweetOwnGoal
01-05-2009, 02:28 PM
is there any actual truth to any of this?
or is this just winter bs as usual to keep things interesting
it was christmas and maybe de ro wanted to be with his family and freinds
carver is in england
maybe moe is in scotland
maybe tfc wants to announce everything when everyone is back in toronto from their holidays
but by all means have fun with this peeps

To be clear, I'm Duane Rollins. I publish The 24th Minute. I'm also a U-Sector, Voyageur was highly involved in organizing the black t-shirt protest in Sept. 2007. FWIW, I'm a trained journalist - I have a pretty j-school degree hanging on my wall and I've worked for several newspapers, mostly covering sports (I'm currently doing a bunch of freelance stuff). Although I claim no additional ability than anyone else when it comes to digging this stuff up, please understand that I'm not putting stuff out there for the thrill of it. Keeping my credibility high is vitally important to me -- I'm trying to grow The 24th Minute into a credible news sourse for Canadian, TFC and MLS news and I'm working on adding some writers to cover the Impact, women's soccer and the Whitevaps as well). When I launched it in late October I said that I wanted it to be the "Canadian Ives."

What I'm getting at withthat pre-amble is that the information I've reported is taken from trusted sourses (and I can't reveal them because it woud mean that I'd never get info again. And, some people could be in big crap. Right misintoronto?). Whenever you report something like this you have to use a bit of judgement and you have to take some risk that your info might be flawed. But, your aim is to be as close to the full truth as possibile (if you aren't in the room, or inside DeRo's/Mo's head you can never have the full truth). In short, you want to be right because the more you are right the more people trust you and the more people read you.

I trust the info I have.

Will DeRo sign for $600k? (I'm speculating now) I think it will be closer to $500k. It's a negotiation. The numbers can and likely will switch. But, thereis simply no way that there isn't some negotiating going on. The man was signed three weeks ago and has yet to speak to anyone (directly, at least) in Toronto about the deal. His father isn't even talking for God's sake.

And the idea that there is a contract negotiation going on has been dloated out there enough times now that TFC would have made a statement dening it if there wasn't some truth to it.

Lucky Strike
01-05-2009, 03:30 PM
To be clear, I'm Duane Rollins. I publish The 24th Minute. I'm also a U-Sector, Voyageur was highly involved in organizing the black t-shirt protest in Sept. 2007. FWIW, I'm a trained journalist - I have a pretty j-school degree hanging on my wall and I've worked for several newspapers, mostly covering sports (I'm currently doing a bunch of freelance stuff). Although I claim no additional ability than anyone else when it comes to digging this stuff up, please understand that I'm not putting stuff out there for the thrill of it. Keeping my credibility high is vitally important to me -- I'm trying to grow The 24th Minute into a credible news sourse for Canadian, TFC and MLS news and I'm working on adding some writers to cover the Impact, women's soccer and the Whitevaps as well). When I launched it in late October I said that I wanted it to be the "Canadian Ives."

What I'm getting at withthat pre-amble is that the information I've reported is taken from trusted sourses (and I can't reveal them because it woud mean that I'd never get info again. And, some people could be in big crap. Right misintoronto?). Whenever you report something like this you have to use a bit of judgement and you have to take some risk that your info might be flawed. But, your aim is to be as close to the full truth as possibile (if you aren't in the room, or inside DeRo's/Mo's head you can never have the full truth). In short, you want to be right because the more you are right the more people trust you and the more people read you.

I trust the info I have.

Check. No worries from this end. I think while most of us have been discussing this fairly rationally, some press the panic button right away, some will accuse your report of being unsubstantiated because they fear it being true while others will do so out of genuine curiosity for sources/be constructively critical (as in judging all the possibilities, not merely finding fault with something),

Finally, others use news like this to advance their agenda (you know who you are). I'm not necessarily saying all of the above scenarios can be found in this particular thread however.

Of course as a journalist you'll know all that, but I think it's still worth mentioning for others.

Blizzard
01-05-2009, 06:49 PM
A few things to think about:

1) At the height of DeRo's career in MLS -- when he was arguably the best player in the league -- he made about $130,000. He was undoubtedly the best bargain in MLS. I can't blame him for wanting a deal that will allow him to take care of himself...

2) Stats are generally a stupid way to look at soccer and they are especially stupid way to look at DeRo. Understand that opposing teams have been pretty much shadowing DeRo the last few years. Although his numbers have dropped, it's impossible to say how much the increased room for others has contributed to Houston's success. The Dynamo have won two of the last three MLS Cups and have finished near the top of the league every year. We won't really know how much of that was DeRo until 2009 is well underway.

3) DeRo's thing has always been his game breaking ability. He plays best when the stakes are the highest. In a league that determines its champion in a playoff that's a nice thing to have. Take a look at the highlights of DeRo's last ever game for Houston against Firpo for a spot in the CONCACAF Champions League quarters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvJPW7PhLsI Watch the first 90 seconds, which are first half highlights, then skip ahaed to listen to the comments at 3:25.

I sure as hell would have liked DeRo on the pitch on July 22...

Absolutely! Well said Duane!!!

db

Shakes McQueen
01-05-2009, 07:00 PM
I saw we just pay him $2 million per season, and tell him he can either pay for another ten players to help him, or go it alone.

It'll be entertaining, either way. :D

- Scott

jloome
01-05-2009, 07:16 PM
To be clear, I'm Duane Rollins. I publish The 24th Minute. I'm also a U-Sector, Voyageur was highly involved in organizing the black t-shirt protest in Sept. 2007. FWIW, I'm a trained journalist - I have a pretty j-school degree hanging on my wall and I've worked for several newspapers, mostly covering sports (I'm currently doing a bunch of freelance stuff). Although I claim no additional ability than anyone else when it comes to digging this stuff up, please understand that I'm not putting stuff out there for the thrill of it. Keeping my credibility high is vitally important to me -- I'm trying to grow The 24th Minute into a credible news sourse for Canadian, TFC and MLS news and I'm working on adding some writers to cover the Impact, women's soccer and the Whitevaps as well). When I launched it in late October I said that I wanted it to be the "Canadian Ives."

What I'm getting at withthat pre-amble is that the information I've reported is taken from trusted sourses (and I can't reveal them because it woud mean that I'd never get info again. And, some people could be in big crap. Right misintoronto?). Whenever you report something like this you have to use a bit of judgement and you have to take some risk that your info might be flawed. But, your aim is to be as close to the full truth as possibile (if you aren't in the room, or inside DeRo's/Mo's head you can never have the full truth). In short, you want to be right because the more you are right the more people trust you and the more people read you.

I trust the info I have.

Will DeRo sign for $600k? (I'm speculating now) I think it will be closer to $500k. It's a negotiation. The numbers can and likely will switch. But, thereis simply no way that there isn't some negotiating going on. The man was signed three weeks ago and has yet to speak to anyone (directly, at least) in Toronto about the deal. His father isn't even talking for God's sake.

And the idea that there is a contract negotiation going on has been dloated out there enough times now that TFC would have made a statement dening it if there wasn't some truth to it.


I'd trust your sources more, Duane, if they were named. While I realize most of our industry has, in the three decades since Watergate, made a habit out of protecting sources' identities, few usually have a valid reason to do it.

And it's usually not necessary. Usually, unnamed source info can be used to get a confirmation through a named source. To me, most of it is just laziness. Reporters get a credible source and instead of using their abilities to either convince the person to go on the record -- a long-established tradition of long-form investigative reporting -- they simply don't use their name.

Then they have to write public posts about their own credibility, and yet wonder why. Unnamed sources have been damaging media credibility for decades now; people believe named source far more readily.

Again, I'm not saying this makes what you reported untrue; just explaining my take on why people question it. When I was an assignment editor (for six of the last 10 years) we had a rule in our newsroom's code of ethics that unless the source could demonstrate extreme risk to their health or livelihood, we didn't even consider it (and "I'll be fired" is not sufficient; most provincial labour codes protect against arbitrary dismissal). And if they could, we still tried to use it to get an on-the-record confirmation first.

EDIT: P.S.,If you've taken all these steps, I apologize. But I'd expect to see "TFC refused to comment" or "No one connected with the club would comment" on the story, to qualify it. Saying 'if there's a rumour out there for this long, they'd deny it if it wasn't true' is really lazy journalism. Call the club. Ask for Michelle Lissel, the PR head. Ask her to confirm or deny. It takes one phone call.

Blizzard
01-05-2009, 07:23 PM
I'd trust your sources more, Duane, if they were named. While I realize most of our industry has, in the three decades since Watergate, made a habit out of protecting sources' identities, few usually have a valid reason to do it.

And it's usually not necessary. Usually, unnamed source info can be used to get a confirmation through a named source. To me, most of it is just laziness. Reporters get a credible source and instead of using their abilities to either convince the person to go on the record -- a long-established tradition of long-form investigative reporting -- they simply don't use their name.

Then they have to write public posts about their own credibility, and yet wonder why. Unnamed sources have been damaging media credibility for decades now; people believe named source far more readily.

Again, I'm not saying this makes what you reported untrue; just explaining my take on why people question it. When I was an assignment editor (for six of the last 10 years) we had a rule in our newsroom's code of ethics that unless the source could demonstrate extreme risk to their health or livelihood, we didn't even consider it (and "I'll be fired" is not sufficient; most provincial labour codes protect against arbitrary dismissal). And if they could, we still tried to use it to get an on-the-record confirmation first.

EDIT: P.S.,If you've taken all these steps, I apologize. But I'd expect to see "TFC refused to comment" or "No one connected with the club would comment" on the story, to qualify it. Saying 'if there's a rumour out there for this long, they'd deny it if it wasn't true' is really lazy journalism. Call the club. Ask for Michelle Lissel, the PR head. Ask her to confirm or deny. It takes one phone call.


Comment withdrawn with apology and regret!

B

Shaughno
01-05-2009, 07:36 PM
Gold Jerry, GOLD!


Speaking of Gold, Canada is about to lay the smack down on Sweden. :canada:

jloome
01-05-2009, 07:41 PM
That's irrelevant, Blizz. You would, at least, be able to prove journalistic due diligence, and people would be less inclined to judge accuracy.

kelzag
01-05-2009, 08:09 PM
Very true. I know TO journalists who completely go around her and contact Mo or JC directly.

Marco2K
01-05-2009, 08:40 PM
Lets just hope Mo knows what he is doing.

jloome
01-05-2009, 08:49 PM
Very true. I know TO journalists who completely go around her and contact Mo or JC directly.

The usual route is to start with your best sources, so normally reporters will hit the coach first, the players he has a good rapport with and any other number before going to the PR person -- although the industry is full of lazy hacks who just do the latter.

The point of calling the PR person isn't to get info; it's to get a confirmation or denial, that's all.

Dunkers
01-05-2009, 09:16 PM
This is all BS, Dero signed a contract with the LEAGUE less then 6 months ago, just because he is now playing for a different team, it does not change the status of his contract with the LEAGUE.

Stop wasting everyones time with hearsay, that is completly unsubstantiated....geeez, now where is my DP

Blizzard
01-06-2009, 12:24 AM
That's irrelevant, Blizz. You would, at least, be able to prove journalistic due diligence, and people would be less inclined to judge accuracy.

Original comment withdrawn with apology and regret!

joel
01-06-2009, 08:48 AM
I don't get it, his contract is with the league, this isn't our problem. So maybe he wants more money, and that's fine, he wants to be grandfathered or something into quasi DP money, but that's for him to negotiate with MLS. Then TFC has to decide what allocation money they may need to use for him, or not. End of story.

SweetOwnGoal
01-06-2009, 01:23 PM
That's irrelevant, Blizz. You would, at least, be able to prove journalistic due diligence, and people would be less inclined to judge accuracy.

By talking to a flack?

The 24th Minute isn't the Toronto Star (and I've done work under TorStar's two named source requirements, so I understand the difference). I don't have the advantage of that name behind me. I can't burn a source or play hardball with one. Not if I want to keep getting information anyway. So, I have a choice. I can either sit on what I know, or I can use my judgment and publish information that I believe to be true and allow others to judge it as they may.

I'm of the get it out there camp.

Also, although I can't name the sources yet, I do put one other important name on this report -- mine. I'm not publishing it as "SweetOwnGoal," I'm publishing it under the actual name on my birth certificate. If I consistently publish crap, then people are going to trust me less, or not at all. And, that will be my own damn fault.

As for your rant about the industry...in the 30+ years since Watergate the other side has increased its resources 100X, while the journalists have faced cuts after cuts after cuts. We're in a losing battle with a PR industry that not only has a massive advantage in controlling the message, but that also steals the best and brightest journalists.

If Mlsintoronto has an issue with anything I write I'll be happy to deal with him -- directly. If he takes the time to contact me -- directly -- I'll be happy to publish his words unedited. In the meantime I'm not about to commit the journalistic equivalent of cutting my balls of by going through the damn flacks for official denials. I don't plan to ask anything of them, so I don't feel the need to parrot their message. They have torontofc.ca to do that.

Beach_Red
01-06-2009, 02:03 PM
As for your rant about the industry...in the 30+ years since Watergate the other side has increased its resources 100X, while the journalists have faced cuts after cuts after cuts. We're in a losing battle with a PR industry that not only has a massive advantage in controlling the message, but that also steals the best and brightest journalists.


I just want to point out that Jloome has defended journalists here quite often and his "rants" about the industry are consistent with your comments about facing cuts after cuts.

And, you're right, there's a difference between TorStar and a blog.

This off season is too freakin' long....

mlsintoronto
01-06-2009, 04:44 PM
I don't have any issue with what SOG is writing...if he's accurate then good for him. If he's not accurate then he's right...people will tune him out. At the end of the day its all just off-season speculation....

However, I do have an issue when people shit on my staff. Blizzard - that is not like you ...

Parkdale
01-06-2009, 04:51 PM
However, I do have an issue when people shit on my staff. Blizzard - that is not like you ...


And I don't like it when people demean fine vegetables.


:cool:


I'm outta here. As you were...

SweetOwnGoal
01-06-2009, 05:05 PM
I don't have any issue with what SOG is writing...if he's accurate then good for him. If he's not accurate then he's right...people will tune him out. At the end of the day its all just off-season speculation....

However, I do have an issue when people shit on my staff. Blizzard - that is not like you ...


For the record I love flacks. I just don't trust a word that comes out of their mouth. It is their job, after all, to get a certain message out that is advantageous to their client/employer.

Which is why it's a bit telling that no one can get DeRo on the phone. If everything was OK then a good flack -- and TFC's flacks are good at what they do -- would want to get that positive message out there. In this case, the silence says a lot.

All that said, this contract is -- to the best of my knowledge -- really freaking complicated and when the full truth gets out there I'm not sure there will be any black hats - just confused ones.

Of course Mlsintoronto if you’d like to update us…dgrollins (@) gmail.com. I’ll make sure I spell you name right. ;)

jloome
01-06-2009, 05:18 PM
For the record I love flacks. I just don't trust a word that comes out of their mouth. It is their job, after all, to get a certain message out that is advantageous to their client/employer.

Which is why it's a bit telling that no one can get DeRo on the phone. If everything was OK then a good flack -- and TFC's flacks are good at what they do -- would want to get that positive message out there. In this case, the silence says a lot.

All that said, this contract is -- to the best of my knowledge -- really freaking complicated and when the full truth gets out there I'm not sure there will be any black hats - just confused ones.

Of course Mlsintoronto if you’d like to update us…dgrollins (@) gmail.com. I’ll make sure I spell you name right. ;)

What a load of bollocks. The reality is it has been an ethical requirement of mainstream journalists for 200 years to try and get comments on the record from every side of a story. Attempting to contact one side of a story and get their perspective takes five minutes and does NOTHING to compromise your source, assuming you know what you're doing.

Your byline means NOTHING with respect to credibility, either. I've been a full-time newspaper reporter for 20 years, and can count the number of people who remember bylines on one hand.

You may well "rather get it out there." I'd rather our industry's reputation didn't continue to slide horribly. One phone call, Duane. That's all you have to give them, one chance to confirm or deny and you've met the most basic standard for journalism.

Hell, it's not even a good example of reporting technique not to call, because even reputable, honest sources are just wrong sometimes. Our job is to try and filter that crap out, and you can't do that when you're only talking to one person.

We're going to have to agree to disagree, or this is going to get rude quickly, and I don't have the time today. Suffice is to say, you went to j-school, you know damn well what I'm saying is true. If you choose to say "well, nobody follows the rules anymore", that's on your conscience. But, between you and I, I've been competitively kicking the hell out of reporters who thought sloppiness gave them an advantage for years. It's not an advantage to you.

rocker
01-06-2009, 05:33 PM
the big question for me is this:

does the info from unnamed sources about what's happening with DeRo in any way educate or help us, as fans?

If I read a blog where someone says they have it on good authority that DeRo is asking for this, or Mojo is doing that, what does that do for me, as a reader?

I know this is slow time of the year, so I guess this news might "entertain" me, but it is essentially useless. At some point, something official will come out and we can critique that at the time. The season must begin, DeRo must play somewhere, and we'll see his salary in the union documents.

I always thought "secret sources" should be reserved for important information that readers need to know to make decisions about their lives. Anything else doesn't serve the purpose.
And in the end rarely do we look back to see if those sources were correct. It disappears into the past.

Roogsy
01-06-2009, 05:39 PM
I am no journalist but I can't see how SOG can do things differently. Otherwise, there would be no blog. I can certainly understand the need for accountability in journalism but I can't see how a blogger or independent like SOG needs to aim to reach such lofty standards especially when everyeone else around him isn't, especially those who are in the mainstream.

Just my two pennies.

ensco
01-06-2009, 05:54 PM
I am no journalist but I can't see how SOG can do things differently.

I think all anyone would need to do is write the exact piece that was written, and add a line saying "I called TFC for comment, and they said xxxxx....", and maybe add his own comment on the TFC comment, if necessary. I actually don't understand why anyone trying to be a journo (as opposed to writing a blog, where anything goes) wouldn't do that.

werewolf
01-06-2009, 05:56 PM
:topic:

Section 117
01-06-2009, 06:07 PM
How about DeRo plays out the contract he originally signed with Houston and give him a nice comfy job with TFC when he is done.

Stryker
01-06-2009, 06:07 PM
Alot of displaced hostilities in here.
Nobody wants to admit that the home grown soccer prodigy is shitting on us so they lynch the messenger.

Section 117
01-06-2009, 06:10 PM
Alot of displaced hostilities in here.
Nobody wants to admit that the home grown soccer prodigy is shitting on us so they lynch the messenger.

I completely agree if he is trying to angle TFC for more money then FUCK OFF! We don't need players like that cause this would set a very bad precedent.

Yohan
01-06-2009, 06:45 PM
How about DeRo plays out the contract he originally signed with Houston and give him a nice comfy job with TFC when he is done.
because he might be too old and will not be able to command better wage. he might have few bad years which will devalue his worth

Blizzard
01-06-2009, 07:19 PM
I don't have any issue with what SOG is writing...if he's accurate then good for him. If he's not accurate then he's right...people will tune him out. At the end of the day its all just off-season speculation....

However, I do have an issue when people shit on my staff. Blizzard - that is not like you ...

Quite right! My apologies to you and the wounded party. It was really just an attempt to diffuse a tense exchange with a laugh but was obviously unwarranted and unfair.

B

mlsintoronto
01-06-2009, 08:00 PM
Accepted. :)

Shakes McQueen
01-06-2009, 08:12 PM
I completely agree if he is trying to angle TFC for more money then FUCK OFF! We don't need players like that cause this would set a very bad precedent.

I don't think simply asking for more money is a "fuck off" type situation, haha. Every player wants to make as much as they can get.

I just think a 200K raise is a bit excessive, when he signed a new contract with the league six months ago.

Ideally TFC would get him to play out his current deal, and then go from there. I just don't see what he has done since signing his new deal (before last season), that justifies such an enormous raise.

Every player has "off" years, and as others have pointed out, statistics certainly aren't everything. But you absolutely cannot argue that DeRo had the kind of season that justifies another new deal, for 50% more cash.

And again - this is all assuming the story is true, which it might not be. We haven't gotten any official word from DeRo's camp, or MLSE. But the silence is certainly deafening.

It also bears mention that this will all be irrelevant when the season kicks off, and we are all singing DeRo's name, regardless of what happens.

- Scott

Super
01-06-2009, 08:19 PM
We also have to remember that this may very well be DeRo's last contract. Now is the time for him to make his money. This is after all his profession and obviously he is entitled to be paid properly for his services. Just because you like your boss, the people you work with, and the city in which you live, doesn't mean you're going to happily take less than you could get somewhere else. I don't fault anyone for wanting to put as much green to their contract as possible. Also, I'm sure that once the contract is put together DeRo will put it away and not give it another thought as he goes out there to fight for TFC.

Shakes McQueen
01-06-2009, 08:27 PM
We also have to remember that this may very well be DeRo's last contract. Now is the time for him to make his money. This is after all his profession and obviously he is entitled to be paid properly for his services. Just because you like your boss, the people you work with, and the city in which you live, doesn't mean you're going to happily take less than you could get somewhere else. I don't fault anyone for wanting to put as much green to their contract as possible. Also, I'm sure that once the contract is put together DeRo will put it away and not give it another thought as he goes out there to fight for TFC.

I agree completely. I think DeRo is a passionate competitor first and foremost, and I have no doubt he will play his heart out.

I also suspect we will get a "second wind" out of him, once he gets all of the supporters chanting his name. He is going to love it here.

- Scott

Jack
01-06-2009, 09:03 PM
Some thread-cleaning has occurred. The topic is a good one, so let's try to keep it civil and respectful.

Thanks!

jloome
01-06-2009, 09:22 PM
I agree completely. I think DeRo is a passionate competitor first and foremost, and I have no doubt he will play his heart out.

I also suspect we will get a "second wind" out of him, once he gets all of the supporters chanting his name. He is going to love it here.

- Scott

It's hard for me to knock the guy; I appreciate the opinions suggesting he shouldn't seek more than RR or Guevara, but he's meant as much or more to the league than Guevara, and MLSE is his employer. It's hard to begrudge anyone trying to get the best deal they can.

wzhxvy
01-06-2009, 09:58 PM
If Dero wants more money, then I fundamentally have no issue with MO throwing extra cash for 2009 from his allocation stach. 2010, is Dero's contract year, so if he plays like he should, he will get a nice contract extension.

What I am not OK with is using our DP slot on Dero, or committing more than one year's worth of allocation money.

But you guys have to remember that Dero likely:

1. Will pay more taxes in Canada
2. Will have to sell his house in Houston for a loss
3. Has incremental expenses in Toronto

So I would be asking for more money if I was him as well...knowing I have leverage...it would have been more classy however to negotiate in the background and be a good soldier and do the press conferences, put on a happy face and get the fans pumped..versus this mini not so subtle holdout. At the end of the day, he is under contract...so he should be a man...any impact to Dero's image will cost him a lot more than the 300K he is going after...

Shakes McQueen
01-06-2009, 10:08 PM
It's hard for me to knock the guy; I appreciate the opinions suggesting he shouldn't seek more than RR or Guevara, but he's meant as much or more to the league than Guevara, and MLSE is his employer. It's hard to begrudge anyone trying to get the best deal they can.

I think he should make more than RR and Guevara - I have no issue with DeRo making the league max, or even slightly more.

How much do Guevara and RR make?

- Scott

jloome
01-07-2009, 12:56 AM
I think he should make more than RR and Guevara - I have no issue with DeRo making the league max, or even slightly more.

How much do Guevara and RR make?

- Scott

Well less. I believe Ricketts is around $225,000 and Guevara $175,000 but that's base, not with all guarantees. Someone correct me if wrong, which given that I'm going by memory is likely.

But the point was made that both had similar point totals (8) to DeRo (9) last year, thus my comment. The issue is how much they pay DeRo in the first year upfront, as allocation money (we have over $1 million, right?) is year-to-year. We gots ta spend it, so we might as well spend it keeping him happy. He's going to be at the cap max regardless.

Marco2K
01-07-2009, 01:36 AM
Ricketta at 225000 is a damn joke. We could be using that money on some talented players.


to think a guy like Barrett makes around 95 000.

DigzTFC!
01-07-2009, 07:35 AM
Let's get some facts straight fellas, since we're all high and mighty on integrity these days:

DeRosario's current salary is $325,000K

http://www.mlsplayers.org/files/9_7_08_salary_info_club.pdf

Speculation from Ives said he wants a raise to 400K with currency exchange 472K

Speculation from Duane (who is unfairly being treated here and even Ives has been terribly wrong and written for ESPN) said he wants 600K with currency exchange 710K

All in all, I think the first pay raise is fine. The second pay raise is outlandish unless DeRo's intent was to move to Europe and this trade prevented it. This is really the only circumstance I can see this type of pay raise being fair. Otherwise, under a cap system, he is actually hurting the team from adding better players in key positions. Is that his fault or Mo's....both. But I for one support TFC with more passion and enthusiasm than I will ever support DeRosario.

Fort York Redcoat
01-07-2009, 08:49 AM
This is really the first case of a league MVP coming home to Toronto so it will serve as a precedent to any others. The structure of this league goes against competing for players internationally. If Dero can or could go to FCK or a team of that magnitude he should. It's an amazing opportunity for him but this is a player, fan favourite aside, that had a down year and wants his last big paycheque from his hometown team?

This 400k sounds like we could still get someone else under the cap, no?

SweetOwnGoal
01-07-2009, 09:10 AM
http://24thminute.blogspot.com/2009/01/your-morning-cup-of-dero.html

An update. With a non-comment from the team!

Pigfynn
01-07-2009, 09:19 AM
oh money...how you disrupt and divide

:)

Shaughno
01-07-2009, 09:24 AM
Cheers Duane, good article and pretty much what I expected to hear.

tfcmanu
01-07-2009, 12:47 PM
Already posted sorry!

J .
01-07-2009, 02:05 PM
That extra 200k has to come from somewhere. No big deal, just forget about Serioux or a quality CB and bring back the Geico Caveman from Montreal.


LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TFCREDNWHITE
01-07-2009, 02:18 PM
I want a DP!

I was promised a DP before the start of the season!


:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Blizzard
01-07-2009, 03:16 PM
I want a DP!

I was promised a DP before the start of the season!


:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

As in designated player, not the other meaning ... right? :eek:

ensco
01-07-2009, 03:32 PM
http://24thminute.blogspot.com/2009/01/your-morning-cup-of-dero.html

An update. With a non-comment from the team!


Bravo SOG. Nice story, terrific follow up.
You are now bookmarked on my machine!

brad
01-07-2009, 04:03 PM
I want a DP!

I was promised a DP before the start of the season!


:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Maybe they'll make DeRo a DP - then you can be happy that TFC fulfilled their promise.

Me, I want to make (and ideally win) the playoffs. I could care less if that's done with a DP, or if Barrett somehow magically turns into a 20 goal/season striker.

VPjr
01-07-2009, 04:34 PM
It appears there will be no DP...oh well, I'm actually happy about it.

Marco2K
01-07-2009, 04:59 PM
What a joke. 13$ beers and no FUCKIN DP!!


WHAT A JOKE


Cant wait to run into MO.

Jack
01-07-2009, 05:01 PM
Who said we weren't getting a DP?

Funny how it only takes a day or two for people to go from happy back to negative bitching.

Toronto sports fans have to be the most pessimistic, with the biggest inferiority complex, in North America.

As to the idea of whether or not we NEED a DP...Columbus won the league without one, as did Houston the year before.

Rudi
01-07-2009, 05:04 PM
What a joke. 13$ beers and no FUCKIN DP!!


WHAT A JOKE


Cant wait to run into MO.
Yeah, what a joke!

I want a DP so we can be like those other super-successful teams that have one!

Roogsy
01-07-2009, 05:19 PM
NYRB made it to the finals with Angel as a DP.

And Schelotto is in effect a DP, they just got around it with legalities. And Columbus won the SS and the Cup.

The point is...they were the difference.

I said this year would prove whether or not a DP was effective, and I believe it has been proven. Used effectively, I think a DP is the difference between an MLS Cup appearance and squeaking into the playoffs. And I think the results will continue to show it.

Jack
01-07-2009, 05:28 PM
NYRB made it to the finals with Angel as a DP.

And Schelotto is in effect a DP, they just got around it with legalities. And Columbus won the SS and the Cup.

The point is...they were the difference.

I said this year would prove whether or not a DP was effective, and I believe it has been proven. Used effectively, I think a DP is the difference between an MLS Cup appearance and squeaking into the playoffs. And I think the results will continue to show it.
So our Schellotto is DeRo.

NYRB made it to the finals and had a good run, but they were shit and barely scraped into the playoffs. Like it or not, Columbus was the class of the league last season.

Rudi
01-07-2009, 05:30 PM
NYRB made it to the finals with Angel as a DP.

And Schelotto is in effect a DP, they just got around it with legalities. And Columbus won the SS and the Cup.

The point is...they were the difference.

I said this year would prove whether or not a DP was effective, and I believe it has been proven. Used effectively, I think a DP is the difference between an MLS Cup appearance and squeaking into the playoffs. And I think the results will continue to show it.
You do realize that NYRB 'squeaked' into the playoffs, right? And Schelotto's cap hit was NOT the full DP level in '08.

Both players were around in '07, and Columbus was utter crap, with New York not much better. The difference for Columbus was not Schelotto, but his supporting cast who were much more able to compliment his passing and vision.

But that hasn't been the case in the short history of the designated player rule. Did Columbus catch lightning in a bottle? Only time will tell.

But it's my belief that the DP cap hit is cirrently far too high to be used effectively and consistently. Perhaps when the CBA is renegotiated will the DP's become more effective.

Yohan
01-07-2009, 05:34 PM
point is, DP does not mean instant success

i can just see so many people calling for Mo and JC to be fired with a DP striker and TFC fails to make playoffs with shitty backline lulz

jloome
01-07-2009, 05:36 PM
http://24thminute.blogspot.com/2009/01/your-morning-cup-of-dero.html

An update. With a non-comment from the team!


Good on you, mate.

Roogsy
01-07-2009, 05:37 PM
You do realize that NYRB 'squeaked' into the playoffs, right? And Schelotto's cap hit was NOT the full DP level in '08.

Both players were around in '07, and Columbus was utter crap, with New York not much better. The difference for Columbus was not Schelotto, but his supporting cast who were much more able to compliment his passing and vision.

But that hasn't been the case in the short history of the designated player rule. Did Columbus catch lightning in a bottle? Only time will tell.

But it's my belief that the DP cap hit is cirrently far too high to be used effectively and consistently. Perhaps when the CBA is renegotiated will the DP's become more effective.


I agree that the DP hit needs to have less of an impact on the cap space. Taking up almost 1/5 is ridiculous. But without Angel, NYRB wouldn't have squeaked into the playoffs...they would have been far out of it and I think that is the point of what kind of effectiveness a DP will have. And then carrying them all the way to the Finals, beating who...Chicago and...what was it, Real Salt Lake? Chicago was no pushover. RSL? Not sure what to think about that one. Still...Angel on TFC would probably have made the same difference and it could've been us in the finals. (Ooooooh...crazy times in LA! With our luck, TFC will be in the finals when it's held in Salt Lake...ugh.)

I look forward to when the DP slot doesn't have any impact at all on the cap space. Make the team/owner responsible for the whole amount and the rest of the cap leave under the current structure (with hopefully a little bump, but I guess that depends on the next CBA.)

And Jack...I love DeRo...I am happy he is here. But a DP he is not.

Dunkers
01-08-2009, 01:26 AM
Ok can we please please end this Dero worthy or not of DP status.
DeRosario will NOT be a DP, not this year or the year after, or the year after that

Lets take a look around the league for a moment;

Kenny Cooper wants DP money, the Dallas Burn want to give it to him

"If the league were to agree to make Kenny a designated player, Taylor Twellman is going to show up, Shalrie Joseph is going to show up, Landon Donovan is going to show up and Brian Ching is going to show up," Hyndman said. "It's going to be, 'You gave it to Kenny Cooper, why not to me?' We went to the league on this and we want to keep him. We've done everything we possibly can with (investor-operator) Clark (Hunt's) blessing and the league has come back and said no."

http://web.mlsnet.com/news/mls_news.jsp?ymd=20081215&content_id=209035&vkey=news_mls&fext=.jsp

So why does the leauge say no to Cooper, but Ok to Dero IF he really was holding out for DP money

Please lets just end this DeRo is holding out for more money, he is not, or if he is, he is not going to get it, not with Garber running the show

Ageroo
01-08-2009, 01:27 AM
Amen brother!

Dunkers
01-08-2009, 01:30 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't Dero have a new contract with MLS for 400k??


YES! hence why he cant be holding out for more money....

Pachuco
01-08-2009, 01:40 AM
Who said we weren't getting a DP?

Funny how it only takes a day or two for people to go from happy back to negative bitching.

Toronto sports fans have to be the most pessimistic, with the biggest inferiority complex, in North America.

As to the idea of whether or not we NEED a DP...Columbus won the league without one, as did Houston the year before.

With all due respect, I have to say, Toronto fans have the right to be pessimistic ;)

Pachuco
01-08-2009, 01:42 AM
Ok can we please please end this Dero worthy or not of DP status.
DeRosario will NOT be a DP, not this year or the year after, or the year after that

Lets take a look around the league for a moment;

Kenny Cooper wants DP money, the Dallas Burn want to give it to him

"If the league were to agree to make Kenny a designated player, Taylor Twellman is going to show up, Shalrie Joseph is going to show up, Landon Donovan is going to show up and Brian Ching is going to show up," Hyndman said. "It's going to be, 'You gave it to Kenny Cooper, why not to me?' We went to the league on this and we want to keep him. We've done everything we possibly can with (investor-operator) Clark (Hunt's) blessing and the league has come back and said no."

http://web.mlsnet.com/news/mls_news.jsp?ymd=20081215&content_id=209035&vkey=news_mls&fext=.jsp

So why does the leauge say no to Cooper, but Ok to Dero IF he really was holding out for DP money

Please lets just end this DeRo is holding out for more money, he is not, or if he is, he is not going to get it, not with Garber running the show

DP is not the only way to make 600K in this league, in case you didn't know!!!!

Dunkers
01-08-2009, 01:49 AM
DP is not the only way to make 600K in this league, in case you didn't know!!!!

Allocation money can be spent in the following ways

1)To sign players new to MLS (that is, a player that did not play in MLS during the previous season).
2)To re-sign an existing MLS player, with League approval.
3)In connection with the exercise of an option to purchase a player's rights or the extension of a player's contact for the second year provided the player was new to MLS in the immediately prior year.

http://web.mlsnet.com/about/league.jsp?section=regulations&content=overview

It would seem the same rules apply here, as the MLS has covered their ass

Pachuco
01-08-2009, 02:03 AM
Allocation money can be spent in the following ways

1)To sign players new to MLS (that is, a player that did not play in MLS during the previous season).
2)To re-sign an existing MLS player, with League approval.
3)In connection with the exercise of an option to purchase a player's rights or the extension of a player's contact for the second year provided the player was new to MLS in the immediately prior year.

http://web.mlsnet.com/about/league.jsp?section=regulations&content=overview

It would seem the same rules apply here, as the MLS has covered their ass

so I don't get your point. According to #2, Dero can be asking to be resigned in 2010 for 600K through allocation money. Meaning, Dero CAN make DP money without being a DP.

Dunkers
01-08-2009, 02:19 AM
so I don't get your point. According to #2, Dero can be asking to be resigned in 2010 for 600K through allocation money. Meaning, Dero CAN make DP money without being a DP.

The reason Kenny Cooper is Not allowed to be a DP and the reason you need league approval (EXTREMELY UNLIKELY) to use allocation money on players already in the league, is because the single entity known as the MLS is trying to restrict the price of its domestic player. If DeRo earns 600,000, some player looking to come to play in the MLS says "im twice the soccer player DeRo is" and therefore demands $1,200,000.

The league always has had tight policy on contract spending, the NASL showed what happened if there was no control, so the MLS has implemented too much control.

Bottom Line, DeRo is getting 415,000 max, and the league will see to it

Pachuco
01-08-2009, 02:22 AM
The reason Kenny Cooper is Not allowed to be a DP and the reason you need league approval (EXTREMELY UNLIKELY) to use allocation money on players already in the league, is becuase the single entity known as the MLS is trying to restrict the price of its domestic player. If DeRo earns 600,000, some player looking to come to play in the MLS says "im twice the soccer player DeRo is" and therefor demands $1,200,000.

The league always has had tight policy on contract spending, the NASL showed what happened if there was no control, so the MLS has implimented too much control.

Bottom Line DeRo is getting 415,000 max, and the league will see to it

Ok I see your point, though I'm not sure it's accurate. I did read that MLS was not using DP spots on current MLS players, but I'm not sure that means MLS won't approve a player making more then 400K without being qualified as a DP. I guess we'll just wait and see. The article seems to suggest it will get done.

James17930
01-08-2009, 10:58 AM
Now Steve Davis says:

The other shoe that needs to fall here is Dwayne De Rosario, and for more than one reason. "De Ro" may yet land in Europe instead of settling into soccer life in his hometown.

http://toronto.fc.mlsnet.com/news/mls_news.jsp?ymd=20090107&content_id=210975&vkey=news_mls&fext=.jsp

Think there's any credibility to that?

Jack
01-08-2009, 11:06 AM
Now Steve Davis says:

The other shoe that needs to fall here is Dwayne De Rosario, and for more than one reason. "De Ro" may yet land in Europe instead of settling into soccer life in his hometown.

http://toronto.fc.mlsnet.com/news/mls_news.jsp?ymd=20090107&content_id=210975&vkey=news_mls&fext=.jsp

Think there's any credibility to that?

Well, given that it's on the MLS website, it's a bit better than a blogger (though there are some pretty great and credible bloggers covering TFC and MLS)

There were some rumblings about DeRo going to Europe...maybe he's still hoping to get a transfer and have a club over there pay for him. That's an interesting wrinkle to the contract and money issues and definitely a big hammer for his agent in the negotiations.

deltox
01-08-2009, 11:12 AM
but if DERO were to go to europe, im pretty sure that TFC would get a boat load of money from the xfr fee

Shaughno
01-08-2009, 11:14 AM
but if DERO were to go to europe, im pretty sure that TFC would get a boat load of money from the xfr fee


Depends on where he goes and how much he goes for really. Nothing saying it's guaranteed we would get as much as either the Edu or Altidore transfers.

Jack
01-08-2009, 11:17 AM
I would think there might be a team or two in Europe willing to pay for arguably a top 3 player from MLS over the past 5 years.

But he's older, so probably Mo Edu money or a bit more. But still, he'd earn more than $600k over there. I don't blame him for exploring his options there...

canadian_bhoy
01-08-2009, 11:21 AM
Based on some of the rumblings that I've heard, it really isn't a stretch to say that there is a 50/50 chance that DeRo may not ever (this year) pull on a TFC jersey.

Amazing how much things can change in a couple of weeks.

Oldtimer
01-08-2009, 11:22 AM
800K allocation.
add $500k, say allocation from the transfer fee
=$1.3 million.

You can get a decent player or 2 for $1.3 mil.

Shaughno
01-08-2009, 11:23 AM
OMFG no DeRo and no DP!?!?!?!?! I quit.

Jack
01-08-2009, 11:29 AM
OMFG no DeRo and no DP!?!?!?!?! I quit.
I have to think that if DeRo doesn't come through that there will be more pressure to get a DP. Given that the DeRo cap issue will be gone.

We still need to build a team. We still need to shore up the backline. This is sports. Shit like this happens all the time...as happy as I was about us getting DeRo, he's only one guy and he wasn't going to win us a cup on his own (though I'd take him over almost anyone else in a cup final match!).

So now that Mo's been thrown a curve ball (maybe Houston wasn't hosed so badly after all?) we need to see how he reacts and what gets done.

I get the feeling maybe DeRo didn't really want to come to Toronto.

canadian_bhoy
01-08-2009, 11:29 AM
OMFG no DeRo and no DP!?!?!?!?! I quit.

I'm assuming that you're being tongue in cheek.

It's a big if - but if DeRo doesn't end up playing for TFC, it will certainly be a blow and really dissapointing.

Personally though - no one player is bigger than the jersey, so if this DeRo saga ends with him playing somewhere else, then so be it.

canadian_bhoy
01-08-2009, 11:31 AM
I get the feeling maybe DeRo didn't really want to come to Toronto.

I'm convinced he didn't want to come to Toronto (at this point in his career).

Other than this being his home town, what are the positives associated with the move to TFC?

Shaughno
01-08-2009, 11:31 AM
:lol:

Honestly, I was only 'happy' at the first announcement. After that things seemed to get fishy. Personally I think Jan 5th was supposed to be when DeRo would have been traded to a club in Europe, but something didn't work out as planned.

Nodoubtguy
01-08-2009, 11:34 AM
oh man......this is getting really weird, really quick.

Stouffville_RPB
01-08-2009, 11:35 AM
I have to think that if DeRo doesn't come through that there will be more pressure to get a DP. Given that the DeRo cap issue will be gone.

We still need to build a team. We still need to shore up the backline. This is sports. Shit like this happens all the time...as happy as I was about us getting DeRo, he's only one guy and he wasn't going to win us a cup on his own (though I'd take him over almost anyone else in a cup final match!).

So now that Mo's been thrown a curve ball (maybe Houston wasn't hosed so badly after all?) we need to see how he reacts and what gets done.

I get the feeling maybe DeRo didn't really want to come to Toronto.


I think he wanted to come later on in his career. When he really didn't have much left think we would give him one last $400k contract.

Sonny Cheeba
01-08-2009, 11:46 AM
i just want the off-season to be over.

Shaughno
01-08-2009, 11:48 AM
I'm convinced he didn't want to come to Toronto (at this point in his career).

Other than this being his home town, what are the positives associated with the move to TFC?


That's what I've been saying all along. People expect us to be able to just up and sign anyone, Canadian or not. Realistically, we don't have much to offer in the way of incentives to possible pick ups.

Stryker
01-08-2009, 11:55 AM
So if this were to happen the question is... did Mo know all this going into the deal?
If thats the case, then he pretty much just sold Julius James for what is likely "somewhere" close to the 1.5 million mark.
He then has even more allocation money to sign a strong CB (who is significantly better than Julius James) as well as being able to sign a DP without the 400,000 salary cap hurting nearly as much.
How fucking brilliant would that be? I mean seriously, if it turns out that way, it'd be hands down, the most brillant piece of deal making in MLS history.

Jack
01-08-2009, 11:57 AM
That's what I've been saying all along. People expect us to be able to just up and sign anyone, Canadian or not. Realistically, we don't have much to offer in the way of incentives to possible pick ups.
So much truth in this statement!!!

bdiddy
01-08-2009, 11:57 AM
I find it strangely amusing, that for some reason there is this need that a DP needs to be a player not in our league before.

Why can't DeRo be our DP? He's a big name in Canadian Soccer, he's proven himself a leader, a goal scorer, a creator. Yet were looking for some big European name that might come and do less, (see Laurent Robert)

He's shown his ability to ignite the crowd and just from his All-Star appearance when he was picked up by our cheering. How much better did he play? Did he not look like a superstar out there.

Scheletto has proven himself a very important piece for Columbus, so they've made him their DP where he previously wasn't catagorized as a DP.

Oldtimer
01-08-2009, 12:02 PM
i just want the off-season to be over.

I know what you mean. It feels like a giant headache.

Shaughno
01-08-2009, 12:06 PM
I find it strangely amusing, that for some reason there is this need that a DP needs to be a player not in our league before.

Why can't DeRo be our DP? He's a big name in Canadian Soccer, he's proven himself a leader, a goal scorer, a creator. Yet were looking for some big European name that might come and do less, (see Laurent Robert)

He's shown his ability to ignite the crowd and just from his All-Star appearance when he was picked up by our cheering. How much better did he play? Did he not look like a superstar out there.

Scheletto has proven himself a very important piece for Columbus, so they've made him their DP where he previously wasn't catagorized as a DP.


Personally I think too many fans were thinking DeRo (on the cheap)+ seperate big name DP. Which is why some didn't like the idea of DeRo as a DP. Personally, I wouldn't be against it... but if we could get around it, I'd rather not.

Oldtimer
01-08-2009, 12:06 PM
So if this were to happen the question is... did Mo know all this going into the deal?
If thats the case, then he pretty much just sold Julius James for what is likely "somewhere" close to the 1.5 million mark.
How fucking brilliant would that be?

That would be amazing, but it's probably true. Houston knew that DeRo was looking at Europe, so moved to get rid of him. Mo saw that there's $$$ to be made with a transfer if DeRo goes, and if alternatively he could convince DeRo to stay, he'd get a quality player at a low trade cost.

Never underestimate trader Mo!

canadian_bhoy
01-08-2009, 12:10 PM
I find it strangely amusing, that for some reason there is this need that a DP needs to be a player not in our league before.

Why can't DeRo be our DP? He's a big name in Canadian Soccer, he's proven himself a leader, a goal scorer, a creator. Yet were looking for some big European name that might come and do less, (see Laurent Robert)

He's shown his ability to ignite the crowd and just from his All-Star appearance when he was picked up by our cheering. How much better did he play? Did he not look like a superstar out there.

Scheletto has proven himself a very important piece for Columbus, so they've made him their DP where he previously wasn't catagorized as a DP.

It's my understanding that Columbus made Scheletto their DP because they had to. His salary last season was being supplemented by allocation money that is nolonger available (hence having to make him the DP to give him the extra cash).

I think DeRo's popularity and appreciation is greatly enhanced on these boards. Most non SG TFC supporters that I have talked to think the DeRo signing is amazing...but it's not like all their dreams have come true with his signing.

Pigfynn
01-08-2009, 12:12 PM
So now are we mentally preparing to lose DeRo?

Sounds bleak to me.

tfc
01-08-2009, 12:12 PM
That's what I've been saying all along. People expect us to be able to just up and sign anyone, Canadian or not. Realistically, we don't have much to offer in the way of incentives to possible pick ups.

I don't understand why people shit on toronto so hard :noidea: Beyond LA or NY, possibly Chicago, what does Seattle have to offer? RSL in Sandy Utah?! Commerce City Colorado?! Sure, we don't have a good pitch, but we offer wayyyyyy more than those three. Topping it off, players are paid in $US, meaning they make more money than if they were in the US just because of the currencies.

Glass is always half empty with some of you guys

Roogsy
01-08-2009, 12:15 PM
That's what I've been saying all along. People expect us to be able to just up and sign anyone, Canadian or not. Realistically, we don't have much to offer in the way of incentives to possible pick ups.

Unfortunately I agree.

Which is scary since it's Shag-no making this statement.

Gawd...why did I check the boards today? This is depressing me.

ensco
01-08-2009, 12:15 PM
That would be amazing, but it's probably true. Houston knew that DeRo was looking at Europe, so moved to get rid of him. Mo saw that there's $$$ to be made with a transfer if DeRo goes, and if alternatively he could convince DeRo to stay, he'd get a quality player at a low trade cost.

Never underestimate trader Mo!

I had a thread after the trade, saying that there had to be an explanation as to why the price for DeRo was so absurdly low. I mostly was called names in that thread, and various people explained in excruciating detail how I didn't appreciate the potential greatness of Julius James.

I think this gets the closest to what may have actually gone down. DeRo may have tried to renegotiate, and/or say he was going to Europe, whatever it was, I think Kinnear knew he had a headache on his hands, and decided to move on, and take what he could get.

Roogsy
01-08-2009, 12:17 PM
I find it strangely amusing, that for some reason there is this need that a DP needs to be a player not in our league before.

Why can't DeRo be our DP? He's a big name in Canadian Soccer, he's proven himself a leader, a goal scorer, a creator. Yet were looking for some big European name that might come and do less, (see Laurent Robert)

He's shown his ability to ignite the crowd and just from his All-Star appearance when he was picked up by our cheering. How much better did he play? Did he not look like a superstar out there.

Scheletto has proven himself a very important piece for Columbus, so they've made him their DP where he previously wasn't catagorized as a DP.

Sorry...there just isn't any comparison between DeRo and Schelotto. GBS has succeeded in the highest levels of soccer in the world. The man is idolized in his country. His skill is unquestioned (as well as his petulance).

DeRo is a great player...but on the world stage, only comes off as average to maybe above average. In MLS, he is a star, but not at the level of a GBS. It's just that DeRo has spent more time in the MLS than GBS, otherwise, this wouldn't even be a debate.

Stryker
01-08-2009, 12:18 PM
So now are we mentally preparing to lose DeRo?

Sounds bleak to me.

We're just trying to find the silver lining in the situation.
Regardless if De Ro plays here or goes abroad we win.
He ethier plays for us or we just landed what is likely to be a significant chunk of allocation money we can then use to soften the blow of the DP cap hit and sign a CB who is better then the one we traded away.
The whole thing is so brilliant its scary. :D

Shaughno
01-08-2009, 12:18 PM
I don't understand why people shit on toronto so hard :noidea: Beyond LA or NY, possibly Chicago, what does Seattle have to offer? RSL in Sandy Utah?! Commerce City Colorado?! Sure, we don't have a good pitch, but we offer wayyyyyy more than those three. Topping it off, players are paid in $US, meaning they make more money than if they were in the US just because of the currencies.

Glass is always half empty with some of you guys


I'm not shitting on Toronto. Realistically, people from or around Toronto are going to think it's better than it is. Same with TFC fans, we think our club is the be all end all.

DeRo just came off 10 straight playoff seasons, 2 MLS Cups in 3 years. What exactly has Toronto been doing in the league? If he has a chance to play in Europe, which he has stated a few times throughout his career that he would like to have played there, he will probably take that opportunity.

People outside North America tend to really only think USA when they hear about the MLS, so it's no surprise that hinders our chances at picking up players already.

It's being more realistic than the people who 'shit on' Carver and Mo for not picking up any player that has ever been mentioned as a DP.

Roogsy
01-08-2009, 12:19 PM
It's my understanding that Columbus made Scheletto their DP because they had to. His salary last season was being supplemented by allocation money that is nolonger available (hence having to make him the DP to give him the extra cash).

I think DeRo's popularity and appreciation is greatly enhanced on these boards. Most non SG TFC supporters that I have talked to think the DeRo signing is amazing...but it's not like all their dreams have come true with his signing.

QFT...unfortunately.

And to make things worse...if in fact DeRo isn't really all that keen on playing here, then we have another "Laurent Robert" on our hands...the talent is not questioned, but the heart and dedication would need to be. We want people who will be here and will dedicate themselves to the success of the club as well as their own.

CretanBull
01-08-2009, 12:21 PM
I can't see a European team being interested in a 30 year old De Ro. He wouldn't make an impact on a quality team. Between salary and marketting opportunities that would be available to him in Canada and not in Europe, he'd end up making the same money here as he would for a 2nd tier European team...but we'd be able to guarantee him playing time etc. which wouldn't be a given for him over there.

Shaughno
01-08-2009, 12:23 PM
I can't see a European team being interested in a 30 year old De Ro. He wouldn't make an impact on a quality team. Between salary and marketting opportunities that would be available to him in Canada and not in Europe, he'd end up making the same money here as he would for a 2nd tier European team...but we'd be able to guarantee him playing time etc. which wouldn't be a given for him over there.


Sorry, but I bet he could find a team that would pay him more than $600k a year without much problem.

canadian_bhoy
01-08-2009, 12:25 PM
My source says that Dero is is negotiating a new deal with TFC for a "boatload" of money and will play for TFC. That's what he said - but it still isn't 100%

Hasn't heard anything about Europe.

That's not to say that Eur isn't part of the equation...just that my contact doesn't have word on it.

Stryker
01-08-2009, 12:27 PM
I can't see a European team being interested in a 30 year old De Ro. He wouldn't make an impact on a quality team. Between salary and marketting opportunities that would be available to him in Canada and not in Europe, he'd end up making the same money here as he would for a 2nd tier European team...but we'd be able to guarantee him playing time etc. which wouldn't be a given for him over there.

At this point I really couldn't care less what DeRo wants or where he plays. All I care about is TFC getting the best deal they can out of the Julius James trade. If DeRo wants to play here under his existing contract thats great, welcome aboard. If he wants to go abroad... see ya later, thanks for the allocation money and don't let the door hit ya in the ass on the way out.
All for One.

Pigfynn
01-08-2009, 12:27 PM
As much as DeRo may deserve a "boatload" of money it certainly doesn't help our team or (probably) his image with the rest of the guys if he does play.

Shaughno
01-08-2009, 12:29 PM
As much as DeRo may deserve a "boatload" of money it certainly doesn't help our team or probably his image with the rest of the guys if he does play.


True but once it hits $400k it doesn't matter how much we pay him.

Stryker
01-08-2009, 12:29 PM
My source says that Dero is is negotiating a new deal with TFC for a "boatload" of money

Thats the one thing I didn't wanna hear.

Shaughno
01-08-2009, 12:30 PM
Thats the one thing I didn't wanna hear.


Why? We were expecting around $600k anyway right? So we give him 400k and the DP spot (theoretically). Then we can pay him $200k, $400k, fuck $2m for all I care as it doesn't count against the cap and it doesn't affect our Allocation situation.

invictusTFC
01-08-2009, 12:31 PM
Sorry, but I bet he could find a team that would pay him more than $600k a year without much problem.

I wonder if we are all just reading too much into this... DeRo could have made much more money playing in Europe when he was making $130k a season with Houston, but for whatever reason he chose to play in the MLS. I'm sure that he is looking for a raise from his new employers if you will, but at 30 yrs.old I think he would welcome playing at home in front of thousands of adoring fans that will treat him like he's the king of the city. I think like most things on this board, we as die hard fans, are making more of this story than it is.

Pigfynn
01-08-2009, 12:31 PM
True but once it hits $400k it doesn't matter how much we pay him.

Ya well when you have guys like Dichio and Robbo taking pay cuts to help the team's cause, it doesn't look good when the new fancy boy is trying to empty us out. just saying:)

Shaughno
01-08-2009, 12:33 PM
I wonder if we are all just reading too much into this... DeRo could have made much more money playing in Europe when he was making $130k a season with Houston, but for whatever reason he chose to play in the MLS. I'm sure that he is looking for a raise from his new employers if you will, but at 30 yrs.old I think he would welcome playing at home in front of thousands of adoring fans that will treat him like he's the king of the city. I think like most things on this board, we as die hard fans, are making more of this story than it is.


Oh for sure. I try to find as many angles and possibilities and then narrow them down to the most realistic ones.

There's no saying it has to be him getting traded to Europe either, it could be somewhere in the MLS if Mo worked up another 'fleece' deal.

Who knows, all I know is I want a solid team front to back come Kansas City.

Shaughno
01-08-2009, 12:34 PM
Ya well when you have guys like Dichio and Robbo taking pay cuts to help the team's cause, it doesn't look good when the new fancy boy is trying to empty us out. just saying:)


Agreed, but what if they agreed under the circumstances of adding a few players, one of which being DeRo at an undefined salary.