MLS on the decline???

[TFCREDNWHITE]

With Top young talent being sold, Ivan Gazidis leaving for Arsenal, Beckham not doing the expected "heavy lifting" in year two" and MLS teams like Columbus, Chivas, NE, Kansas etc... seemingly going down the tube attendance wise. How long do we(TFC) realistically have before we hear something like to this effect:


"We are now seeing the first signs of that decline happening. Supporters have had enough of being ripped off. The MLS is boring. It is no longer competitive. It is all a bit of a turn-off."


Just wondering...if you guys think that MLS is on the decline??

Not TFC...but MLS as a bigger picture??

[Parkdale]

who is that quote from?

[TFCREDNWHITE]

who is that quote from?

Me...maybe..:rolleyes:

[Phil]

Sorry but this is not news, its opinion and a poll. Moving it to the TFC forum.

[Parkdale]

oh, and I think things are getting better. Sure the beckham thing is fizzled out,
but getting real teams that respect their fans. Seattle and Philly will bring a whole
new level to the league. They will try to bring it like we do with home support.
I expect the minor setbacks in the league to be outweighed by good things.

but then again... I'm an optimist.

[brad]

Of course, everything is downhill after TFC :-)

[Roogsy]

Growth and the improvement of MLS isn't a straight line upwards.

There will be bumps on the way.

Gazidis isn't a sign of bad things for MLS...executives move all the time. And really...who wouldn't jump at the chance to work for one of the top clubs in the world? Especially if he is English?

Beckham has done what he was brought to do...raise the profile of the league and sell shirts. Anything beyond that is just hopes and dreams.

Other players will come, some will leave. It's sports my friends, especially in a global environment like soccer.

MLS is improving, maybe not as fast as we would like. But it's not on a decline...not sure who could really have that opinion looking at things objectively.

[Parkdale]

Beckham has done what he was brought to do...raise the profile of the league and sell shirts. Anything beyond that is just hopes and dreams.


To bad the people running his club are fucking MORONS!!

You have a talent like that on your squad (and no one can deny he is a talented player)
and yet somehow you still finish in the basement? Man.... I blame LA more then MLS for that.

[TFCREDNWHITE]

Growth and the improvement of MLS isn't a straight line upwards.

There will be bumps on the way.

Gazidis isn't a sign of bad things for MLS...executives move all the time. And really...who wouldn't jump at the chance to work for one of the top clubs in the world? Especially if he is English?

Beckham has done what he was brought to do...raise the profile of the league and sell shirts. Anything beyond that is just hopes and dreams.

Other players will come, some will leave. It's sports my friends, especially in a global environment like soccer.

MLS is improving, maybe not as fast as we would like. But it's not on a decline...not sure who could really have that opinion looking at things objectively.


i just thought it would be a fair question.

people in NE, Columbus, KC, Chivas probably don't have the same view as us....

[Roogsy]

i just thought it would be a fair question.

people in NE, Columbus, KC, Chivas probably don't have the same view as us....

Columbus would disagree...they are still in the euphoria of winning the double.

Chivas has never really seen much better, they have always struggled in their attendance.

KC is getting their own stadium and are regularly filling out the 10k stadium they currently have. Once into their new stadium the fans there think it will be a much better environemtn conducive to soccer as opposed to trying to fill a stadium of 65k with 12k people. The point is they are getting a stadium.

NE is weird. Solid team, solid fanbase but seem to have plateaued.

All in all, either teams are stagnant or are improving. I don't see a decline and I disagree that the fans from those cities would see it that way. Compared to the initial years of the league maybe...but compared to where the league was 5 years ago? Definitely things are better.

The real concern here is what this recession is going to do to all these plans.

[Roogsy]

To bad the people running his club are fucking MORONS!!

You have a talent like that on your squad (and no one can deny he is a talented player)
and yet somehow you still finish in the basement? Man.... I blame LA more then MLS for that.

For real...QFT

[GabrielHurl]

TFC RNW - you are a right positive person today aren't you?

[TFCREDNWHITE]

TFC RNW - you are a right positive person today aren't you?


HAHA :D generally i am, but not today....;)

[CretanBull]

Until BMO seats 60,000 people and tickets are $150 a game, young players are going to leave for Europe - to expect anything less is naive. When Edu, Adu etc. leave the league it's not a sign of it's decline, it's a sign of its success and its ability to develope players. That message is getting through to other top leagues which is why we're attracting players like Beckham, Blanco etc. The fact that they're even willing to consider the MLS as an option for them is a sign of success.

[Pookie]

The MLS was in decline for much of its existence. They've expanded and then contracted. They've reported record losses and then turned around and built soccer specific stadiums and inked TV deals.

The advantage they have is that they have a controlled cost structure which should enable most franchises to be profitable.

I don't think you'll ever see them approach MLB or NFL standards but they can make a very comfortable go of it.

The issue is going to be fighting their own greed.

We see it with the TFC and folks talking about a 30,000 seat stadium. Followed by forecasts that 40,000 would be reasonable.

We've only been in the league 2 years and over 1,000 of those seats sold on the day Beckham announced he would play.

It's affordable and fun now and I don't doubt that they could sell out at 25,000 seats on a regular basis. Stretch that to 30 or 40k though and I do think you risk the "fad factor" running out.

This is not a top level league. It won't be.

Your young star players will develop and seek the dollars and exposure that Europe brings.

Your "big names" who come across the pond to play will largely be players on the downside of their careers and/or players who have had "issues" and were deemed too much of liability to keep (remember Laurent Robert?).

That's ok though if you accept it for what it is. Entertaining and the best league in North America. If the costs are kept reasonable and profit hungry owners can live within their means, the league will be successful.

[Oldtimer]

Even the Dutch complain about having younger players leave for the EPL and Spain, and then come back near the end of their careers.

Unless you're one of the top 3 leagues in the world, it will happen.

It's a good sign actually. In 1996, MLS had precious little "talent" worth poaching. the fact that so much good talent is being produced is a good sign.

[flatpicker]

Young talent leaving the league is not a completely bad thing in my books.
It shows there is something of worth in MLS.
What do League One and Championship supporters think when their up and coming players are sold to the Premier League?
They don't say the "sky is falling".
It's part of the business... a player's talents will dictate what options he has...
...and we are certainly not amoung the top leagues in the world, so until salaries increase, good players will go elsewhere.
Such is life.

[jloome]

The MLS was in decline for much of its existence. They've expanded and then contracted. They've reported record losses and then turned around and built soccer specific stadiums and inked TV deals.

The advantage they have is that they have a controlled cost structure which should enable most franchises to be profitable.

I don't think you'll ever see them approach MLB or NFL standards but they can make a very comfortable go of it.

The issue is going to be fighting their own greed.

We see it with the TFC and folks talking about a 30,000 seat stadium. Followed by forecasts that 40,000 would be reasonable.

We've only been in the league 2 years and over 1,000 of those seats sold on the day Beckham announced he would play.

It's affordable and fun now and I don't doubt that they could sell out at 25,000 seats on a regular basis. Stretch that to 30 or 40k though and I do think you risk the "fad factor" running out.

This is not a top level league. It won't be.

Your young star players will develop and seek the dollars and exposure that Europe brings.

Your "big names" who come across the pond to play will largely be players on the downside of their careers and/or players who have had "issues" and were deemed too much of liability to keep (remember Laurent Robert?).

That's ok though if you accept it for what it is. Entertaining and the best league in North America. If the costs are kept reasonable and profit hungry owners can live within their means, the league will be successful.

This is a very realistic perspective.

Having said that, when it comes to pro sports, North Americans aren't realistic. Just look at the diversity of professional sports that flourish in Europe but would never get a look here: netball, water polo, rugby, hurling, etc.

Teams in Europe can survive with far fewer than 10,000 per games with ease, because they're based on draws from surrounding areas and not relying exclusively on being marketed as a top urban market draw. People accept and support local teams even though they're in what North Americans would foolishly term "the minor leagues."

In North America, the only leagues that even remotely sets that standard are junior hockey and the CFL, and it has done so on a pretty shaky, tenuous footing for several decades.

Without a change of attitudes, leagues like MLS can't survive in the long run without major expansion to include smaller communities, and without accepting that there are will be continual franchise deaths and rebirths.

They'll never get the TV and ad revenue necessary to support large-scale infrastructure; and without large scale infrastructure, they won't look like one of the big boys in town and won't draw as well as other sports.

MLS obviously recognized this in its push for more soccer specific stadiums, and ventures like the new Red Bulls stadium and Rio Tinto in Salt Lake are essential,

But they've digressed since their introduction of the $40 million buy-in to saying "well, maybe not in these few cases." Bad move. But it's a sign right off the top that compromise will have to be introduced into the model.

If it's not going to be a top five sport and able to carry itself among the other heavy hitters in North America in every city (New York and Salt Lake notwithstanding) , a blend of the USL community style and the MLS big city approach will be necessary over time, or it just becomes a "niche" product, with most of the teams falling into that "zero to 10,000" category. At that point, the larger centres will start losing money on larger stadiums designed to service a major league.(And if you look at real gate for Columbus, as an example, this is already happening. They claim 14,000 per game but had documetns leaked to a local newspaper showing it's actually below 10,000.)

You have to blend that major league goal with a grassroots approach, because if there's no growth from the bottom up, every community expects the brass ring. But many will simply never be able to properly support it, for a lack of population, a lack of football culture, or too much competition for consumer purchasing power. The Columbus example demonstrates this perfectly: it led the league all season, but drew less than local college football games. In MLS-2, however, where SSS's aren't required and they're marketing pretty much exclusively to hardcore fans, its 7,000 to 9,000 per game might lead the league.

MLS hasn't recognized this yet, but has been smart enough up to this point that I think we'll see it at some point, whether through a collaboration with USL or through MLS-2 and MLS-3.

[Beach_Red]

It's a good sign actually. In 1996, MLS had precious little "talent" worth poaching. the fact that so much good talent is being produced is a good sign.

A lot of it will depend on how much talent the US (and Canada) is able to develop. There's no reason soccer players can't be developed to the same level as basketball players or tennis players or track stars - it'll just take a little time.

It's just hard to believe that there's no chance NY, LA even Chicago or Miami won't someday be at the 'top.'

[Detroit_TFC]

There are many things about MLS that are small-time to be sure. And there have been ups and downs. However, looking at the last three years, there's a lot of improvements to point to.

I want to see what happens with Seattle. All the components of a world class organization are coming together there. We'll see, having the pieces doesn't necessarily mean the right things will happen.

[Beach_Red]

This is a very realistic perspective.

Having said that, when it comes to pro sports, North Americans aren't realistic. Just look at the diversity of professional sports that flourish in Europe but would never get a look here: netball, water polo, rugby, hurling, etc.

Teams in Europe can survive with far fewer than 10,000 per games with ease, because they're based on draws from surrounding areas and not relying exclusively on being marketed as a top urban market draw. People accept and support local teams even though they're in what North Americans would foolishly term "the minor leagues."

In North America, the only leagues that even remotely sets that standard are junior hockey and the CFL, and it has done so on a pretty shaky, tenuous footing for several decades.

Without a change of attitudes, leagues like MLS can't survive in the long run without major expansion to include smaller communities, and without accepting that there are will be continual franchise deaths and rebirths.

They'll never get the TV and ad revenue necessary to support large-scale infrastructure; and without large scale infrastructure, they won't look like one of the big boys in town and won't draw as well as other sports.


Not necessarily.

MLS doesn't need to expand to include smaller communities anymore than the NFL or the NBA or MLB do - they have the NCAA for that. It's a different system, but that doesn't mean it's inferior.

The "diversity of professional sports" is really a tough argument to make. There are lots of pro sports in North America, from the NFL to lacrosse. It may not be as different to Europe as you think.

It is true that soccer will have to look like the other big boys in town. Maybe it can do that by adopting a European structure and maybe it can do that with an American structure the same way basketball and football do. (I won't include baseball because it's a pre-war structure with minor leagues and farm teams and basketball and baseball both rose to prominence in the US using the collge system as feeder teams, though even baseball is starting to rely pretty heavily on the NCAA, at least for American players).

[ilikemusic]

"It is no longer competitive"

Within CONCACAF? FIFA?

MLS was competitive? Did I miss something? :noidea:

[TheRenter]

sorry...maybe it's just me, but i think this thread is just plain stupid...find something better to do or talk about if you're bored...really..:skep:

just my $0.02

lates

[MUFC_Niagara]

The league is shit. End of. I hate everything about the MLS, except TFC. This league is a joke, not because of the talent pool, but because of the amateurish way in which it is run.

[London]

The league is shit. End of. I hate everything about the MLS, except TFC. This league is a joke, not because of the talent pool, but because of the amateurish way in which it is run.

off topic , but you state this over and over.

what made you buy seasons tickets when it all started??

[MUFC_Niagara]

off topic , but you state this over and over.

what made you buy seasons tickets when it all started??

Not off topic. I believe the league is in decline. Should have included that. I bought my tickets because I love TFC and wanted to support my local club. I just hate the way they run the league. I am actually surprised that there isn't more critics on here of the league itself based on what happened to our roster last year at key points in the season.

[Beach_Red]

^ Oh, we bitched plenty. In fact, considering TFC won one of those depleted-roster games - on the road no less - we may have bitched a little too much.

Now, do you think the league is shit compared to where it should be at this point in it's development, or do you just think it's hopeless?

[London]

Not off topic. I believe the league is in decline. Should have included that. I bought my tickets because I love TFC and wanted to support my local club. I just hate the way they run the league. I am actually surprised that there isn't more critics on here of the league itself based on what happened to our roster last year at key points in the season.

it is good to see that even though you hat MLs, you are willing to hold on to your seats in a hope that it will get better.

i think that you can see a more profesional atmosphere now that they are bringing in investers that can run clubs.

[MrHawk]

it is good to see that even though you hat MLs, you are willing to hold on to your seats in a hope that it will get better.

i think that you can see a more profesional atmosphere now that they are bringing in investers that can run clubs.

Does that mean when a team scores, we're giving 2 finger taps?

[London]

Does that mean when a team scores, we're giving 2 finger taps?

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

i meant by the clubs, not our drunkin asses!!!

[Roogsy]

it is good to see that even though you hat MLs, you are willing to hold on to your seats in a hope that it will get better.


Or more valuable. ;)

[rocker]

OK, thread is over. Poll states 70% believe MLS is not in decline. We can move on now :)

[RedsYNWA]

5 Years MLS will be in the top 10 world leagues

[MUFC_Niagara]

^ Oh, we bitched plenty. In fact, considering TFC won one of those depleted-roster games - on the road no less - we may have bitched a little too much.

Now, do you think the league is shit compared to where it should be at this point in it's development, or do you just think it's hopeless?

I think it is shit compared to where it should be it. They have such a huge opportunity to grow the sport here. They are trying to appleal to sports fans and what they should be doing is appealling to footie fans. People who follow football in Europe or are from Europe, they don't take this league seriously. For good reason, what league in the world punishes teams for signing better players? What kind of logic is that? Why do we need playoffs? What is wrong with a single table. Leagues across the world have a single table, why is MLS trying to fix something that isn't broken. Trust me, as a TFC fan I want nothing more than for this league to succeed. But until they get onside with the FIFA calender I will bash the MLS to know end. I can live with the playoffs and the rediculous roster limitations.

*Edit* - I forgot the games that are played on an NFL field with grid iron lines. At least take off of the gid iron lines if you are going to play in a throwball stadium.

[rocker]

What is wrong with a single table. Leagues across the world have a single table, why is MLS trying to fix something that isn't broken. .

What's wrong with the playoffs? the World Cup is a playoff. Champions League is a playoff. In the promotion/relegation system in England, sometimes teams have playoffs. The world loves playoffs. It's just a different composition of teams in each kind.

Some of the best games I saw this year were near the end of the season as teams fought to make the second competition, and during the second competition (the DC-Columbus game where they hit the posts a million times and nearly made the playoffs was awesome... the RSL playoff game where Will Johnson nearly scored and they coulda gone on further was tense!)

[MUFC_Niagara]

Like i said, the playoffs aren't my biggest issue with MLS. I guess i'd like to see the emphasis be shifted to who wins the league. Also, ou could have a single table and still have the playoffs. Top 8 teams in the league compete. But at least with the single table the empasis is placed on the league season itself and therefore, the league winner.

[kelzag]

http://lolcat.com/images/lolcats/431.jpg

[Roogsy]

Like i said, the playoffs aren't my biggest issue with MLS. I guess i'd like to see the emphasis be shifted to who wins the league. Also, ou could have a single table and still have the playoffs. Top 8 teams in the league compete. But at least with the single table the empasis is placed on the league season itself and therefore, the league winner.

Isn't that what we have now? If you want to consider the Supporters Shield winners more important, that's up to you.

Seems to me the format wouldn't really matter anyways so long as it makes sense and the cream rises to the top. What should matter is whether it's quality football being played and I think that is where we can demand more from the league.

[Beach_Red]

I think it is shit compared to where it should be it. They have such a huge opportunity to grow the sport here. They are trying to appleal to sports fans and what they should be doing is appealling to footie fans.

Well, if you only want to appeal to "footie fans" and to people who follow the sport in Europe or are from Europe (though you might want to mention Central/South America, Mexico and a few other places that follow the sport - you're letting your Eurocentrism show ;)) then there will be a finite amount of growing you can do. There really aren't as many of those people in North America as you might think - although if you take my advice and include Mexico and the rest of the Americas it certainly goes up.

But MLS wants to appeal to people like me - people who never followed the European (or any other) version of the sport, aren't from Europe and have very little interest in Europe, but like sports. We've spent the last twenty years signing our kids up for soccer and we starting to really like it. There are about two hundred million of us in North America and if we get interested enough the sport will become one of the four majors.

But if we don't, if all we hear is how crappy this league is, we'll just stick to baseball, it is our summer sport.

[MUFC_Niagara]

Isn't that what we have now? If you want to consider the Supporters Shield winners more important, that's up to you.

Seems to me the format wouldn't really matter anyways so long as it makes sense and the cream rises to the top. What should matter is whether it's quality football being played and I think that is where we can demand more from the league.


The cream doesn't rise to the top when one conference has better teams. The top team in the west may have a worse record than the 5th team in the east, which has happened. MLS loses its top young players early one and takes on players that are past their prime. Not a good way to have top quality football. BUT, as has been said, this is something that happens in leagues all over the world and, as has been said, until you're a top 3 league in the world it's a problem that they will always battle. So if the quality of football isn't there, lets at least ensure the quality of the league structure.

[Roogsy]

The cream doesn't rise to the top when one conference has better teams. The top team in the west may have a worse record than the 5th team in the east, which has happened. MLS loses its top young players early one and takes on players that are past their prime. Not a good way to have top quality football. BUT, as has been said, this is something that happens in leagues all over the world and, as has been said, until you're a top 3 league in the world it's a problem that they will always battle. So if the quality of football isn't there, lets at least ensure the quality of the league structure.

The only teams that miss out on the playoffs are mediocre teams that miss out because of the 3 guaranteed spots for a division, meaning at the very most, 3 teams that may deserve a spot don't have a guarantee. But in all the history of MLS, I don't think all 3 spots have gone to undeserving teams, maybe 1 or 2. Which means at the very least, the 6 best teams in MLS (out of a league that up to TFC's entry consisted of a dozen teams) made it into the playoffs.

I stand by my statement, the cream rises to the top.

[Beach_Red]

I stand by my statement, the cream rises to the top.

I agree. The difference in structure isn't much of an issue for me. Once in a while a team with a weaker record gets into the playoffs. They usually get knocked out early. Sometimes you have what happened this year and a team like NYRB can go on a run - good for them if they managed to get it together and win so many pressure games.

I like a knock-out system like the Champions league, the World Cup or play-offs. I still don't understand what's so great about a system in which the same four teams finish at the top every year and the only games that decide the league is between each other, with the rest of the season just feating n the lower teams. Maybe it used to be different in England, maybe there was a time there wasn't such a huge gap between the teams, but it seems to be getting wider. Right now it doesn't seem like a good model to emulate.

Baseball is starting to get like that where really only ten teams are realistically competing for the World Series. Maybe if they bring in a trophy for 11th place and call it "promotion" the fans in KC and Milwaukee will have something to aim for, but it's unlikely they'll get too excited about it.

[TorCanSoc]

Two concepts to consider. USMNT prior to 1996. And the USMNT ten (very short) years later. MLS directly responsible for that success.

Vancouver, Montreal, who knows maybe Ottawa. We start getting some international success.

[Shakes McQueen]

The league is growing at a fine pace. The most frustrating part of MLS is everything related to the "single entity" ownership, and the rules that are related to it.

I think some folks want this league to grow faster than the markets can sustain.

We are doing fine. Revenues continue to go up, which will eventually result in relaxing of the salary cap, which will result in an increase in talent. I don't think we will have a league on par with the EPL in popularity, but I could certainly see MLS becoming as respected and popular as Ligue 1.

- Scott

[Cashcleaner]

MLS continues to operate not as a sports league, but as an entertainment corporation - something more along the lines of Paramount or Sony. Until they start to emulate the approach of other organisations like the NHL or NFL, this league will never be taken as seriously as they want to be in North America.

As much as I'd like to be an optimist, I don't see there being any significant changes to the fundamentals of how they operate, and unless those necessary changes are made the league is in real danger of stagnation and collapse.

[Beach_Red]

^ What do you mean by that, exactly?

The NFL and the NHL aren't run the same, are they? What about baseball?

[TFCREDNWHITE]

^ What do you mean by that, exactly?

The NFL and the NHL aren't run the same, are they? What about baseball?

I have to confess beach_red, when the MLB went on strike and there was no baseball for a while, i was praying that the entire MLB just folded and collapsed...

sorry, i just wanted to throw my two cents in against baseball..:)

[Davenport]

Sorry, but I don't believe that MLS clubs will ever be anything but feeder clubs for the more established, bigger clubs in Europe.
These clubs will forever scoop off the better younger players with the offer of more money, un-matched exposure and a higher level of play.
Sadly, MLS will never have a serious TV deal, instead relying on bums on seats and sponsorship. That's never going to result in much money in most MLS club's coffers.
To be blunt and realistic, it's always going to be a second rate league with average players who are either over the hill or not quite good enough for another league.
Merry Christmas everyone !

[Roogsy]

Well somebody is a downer today! LOL!

I chose not to be so bleak. The marketing power of the US alone is enough to help overcome many of those issues. The real issue is can the US public accept soccer? The old US population perhaps not, but I have confidence newer Americans are more openminded.

[Oldtimer]

Two concepts to consider. USMNT prior to 1996. And the USMNT ten (very short) years later. MLS directly responsible for that success.

Vancouver, Montreal, who knows maybe Ottawa. We start getting some international success.

We'd have to sack the CSA first, unfortunately.

[Beach_Red]

Well somebody is a downer today! LOL!

I chose not to be so bleak. The marketing power of the US alone is enough to help overcome many of those issues. The real issue is can the US public accept soccer? The old US population perhaps not, but I have confidence newer Americans are more openminded.

I agree. And if the USA does well internationally it'll make the sport even more popular. One thing the US population can accept - just as every population in the world - is a winner.

When the US does get behind soccer there's no reason to believe they won't turn out many of the best players in the world - like they do in every other sport. Soon we'll hate them for it and regret ever getting them interested....

[rocker]

http://www.friendsjunction.com/lileBook.jpg

[Canadian Blue]

MLS teams like Columbus seemingly going down the tube attendance wise.

- Columbus probably had their best attendance year ever in 2008

It is no longer competitive - it is extremely competitive, any team can win any year, seriously who would have picked the Crew to pull the double?

Just wondering...if you guys think that MLS is on the decline?? - not at all I think it is the opposite



Just my 2 cents in bold

[MUFC_Niagara]

Well, if you only want to appeal to "footie fans" and to people who follow the sport in Europe or are from Europe (though you might want to mention Central/South America, Mexico and a few other places that follow the sport - you're letting your Eurocentrism show ;)) then there will be a finite amount of growing you can do. There really aren't as many of those people in North America as you might think - although if you take my advice and include Mexico and the rest of the Americas it certainly goes up.

But MLS wants to appeal to people like me - people who never followed the European (or any other) version of the sport, aren't from Europe and have very little interest in Europe, but like sports. We've spent the last twenty years signing our kids up for soccer and we starting to really like it. There are about two hundred million of us in North America and if we get interested enough the sport will become one of the four majors.

But if we don't, if all we hear is how crappy this league is, we'll just stick to baseball, it is our summer sport.

A little over the top no? I was using Europe as an example but of course I mean all football, futbol areas of the world.

Soccer will NEVER break the top 4 sports in the US, ever, never, ever.

[MUFC_Niagara]

Sorry, but I don't believe that MLS clubs will ever be anything but feeder clubs for the more established, bigger clubs in Europe.
These clubs will forever scoop off the better younger players with the offer of more money, un-matched exposure and a higher level of play.
Sadly, MLS will never have a serious TV deal, instead relying on bums on seats and sponsorship. That's never going to result in much money in most MLS club's coffers.
To be blunt and realistic, it's always going to be a second rate league with average players who are either over the hill or not quite good enough for another league.
Merry Christmas everyone !

Unfortunately I agree.

[LucaGol]

Sorry, but I don't believe that MLS clubs will ever be anything but feeder clubs for the more established, bigger clubs in Europe.
These clubs will forever scoop off the better younger players with the offer of more money, un-matched exposure and a higher level of play.
Sadly, MLS will never have a serious TV deal, instead relying on bums on seats and sponsorship. That's never going to result in much money in most MLS club's coffers.
To be blunt and realistic, it's always going to be a second rate league with average players who are either over the hill or not quite good enough for another league.
Merry Christmas everyone !

You are describing many leagues around the world.

[rocker]

if MLS remains a second rate league for the rest of my life then that's fine.
I enjoy myself. I don't go to the games because maybe in the future the league will be better. I go because I enjoy the games.
You don't see fans of League 2 teams in England complaining about not being top notch.

Personally I think MLS has grown in $$$ terms since its inception and will continue to do so slowly year after year. It certainly has no decline in prominence. If the pace isn't fast enough for ya, then too bad. Hockey wasn't exactly a big sport 30 years ago in the US and now it's a 2.5 billion dollar a year business.

[MUFC_Niagara]

if MLS remains a second rate league for the rest of my life then that's fine.
I enjoy myself. I don't go to the games because maybe in the future the league will be better. I go because I enjoy the games.
You don't see fans of League 2 teams in England complaining about not being top notch.

Personally I think MLS has grown in $$$ terms since its inception and will continue to do so slowly year after year. It certainly has no decline in prominence. If the pace isn't fast enough for ya, then too bad. Hockey wasn't exactly a big sport 30 years ago in the US and now it's a 2.5 billion dollar a year business.

EXACTLY! This is the reason I go mate ;)!

[Beach_Red]

A little over the top no? I was using Europe as an example but of course I mean all football, futbol areas of the world.

Soccer will NEVER break the top 4 sports in the US, ever, never, ever.

In my lifetime I've seen a lot of "nevers" come to pass:

Americans will never drive small Japanese cars.

Football will never be as popular as baseball, "America's pastime."

America will never have a black president.

And so on....

Never say never, anything really is possible. It's really just globalization. The days of American isolationism are over.

All I'm saying is if the Americans actually want to (maybe that's a big if, who knows) then there's no reason they won't dominate soccer the way do almost everything else (like it or not). Why wouldn't some Russian billionaire want to own a team in New York or LA? A couple more Americans buy EPL teams, they'll make a breakthrough in the US, too.

[Bobo]

Columbus won supporters of the year, forget MLS being on the decline, the world is coming to an end.

[TorCanSoc]

Columbus won supporters of the year, forget MLS being on the decline, the world is coming to an end.
Good grief.

[dannyd]

A little over the top no? I was using Europe as an example but of course I mean all football, futbol areas of the world.

Soccer will NEVER break the top 4 sports in the US, ever, never, ever.

25 years ago people said the same thing about basketball...

[Cashcleaner]

^ What do you mean by that, exactly?

The NFL and the NHL aren't run the same, are they? What about baseball?

Ummmm, of course they're not the same. It's so obvious though, I didn't think it is even neccessary to mention. You've proven me wrong, I guess.

I mean that both organisations have a more hands-off approach to the day-to-day runnings of the clubs and ither has a single-entity ownership structure and I doubt they ever would consider such a concept. Both organisations have a primary duty to the overall welfare of the clubs, not to their own bottom line. MLS is markedly different in that regard. This is their fundamental philosophyies we're talking about. Its ideas and concepts that are deeply entrenched in their corporate body that places a higher emphasis on the league as a whole rather than all its parts combined. Take Toronto FC's visual identity for example. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I believe MLS holds the rights to our team's logo, name, and colours. Basically "Toronto FC" isn't owned by the club itself, its owned by the league that the club is a part of. I can't think of a similar instance of that happening in pro sports.

I strongly believe that we need to scrap the concept of the single-entity and give teams more free reign. The current system is in place to make the umbrella organisation a lot of money, but not so much for the individual clubs. Of course, TFC is making buckets of coin but I am confident we would be even more successful if we were calling more of the shots for ourselves.

[Pookie]

I strongly believe that we need to scrap the concept of the single-entity and give teams more free reign. The current system is in place to make the umbrella organisation a lot of money, but not so much for the individual clubs. Of course, TFC is making buckets of coin but I am confident we would be even more successful if we were calling more of the shots for ourselves.

The risk you have in giving teams more free reign is that you end up like MLB with a few teams in very big markets, throwing money around and buying their way into the post season.

Tampa was an exception last year but does anyone doubt that over time, the Yankees, Red Sox will get into the post season more often than Toronto under the current structure?

A strong league on the other hand is exactly the emphasis of the NFL, though it too is fighting to hold that concept vs those that want to make individual profits. It is what has allowed teams like Green Bay to compete and thrive against markets like Dallas and New York. If they move in the other direction, I dare say the competitiveness will erode to mirror that of MLB.

[Roogsy]

The risk you have in giving teams more free reign is that you end up like MLB with a few teams in very big markets, throwing money around and buying their way into the post season.

Tampa was an exception last year but does anyone doubt that over time, the Yankees, Red Sox will get into the post season more often than Toronto under the current structure?

A strong league on the other hand is exactly the emphasis of the NFL, though it too is fighting to hold that concept vs those that want to make individual profits. It is what has allowed teams like Green Bay to compete and thrive against markets like Dallas and New York. If they move in the other direction, I dare say the competitiveness will erode to mirror that of MLB.

I agree with this post. Quality.

[Jack]

Not true.


As long as you keep the salary cap in place, you won't run into this issue so much.

Baseball is not a good example.

[Pookie]

Not true.


As long as you keep the salary cap in place, you won't run into this issue so much.

Baseball is not a good example.

Depends on how strict your cap is. Baseball actually has a Luxury tax but it is largely ineffective. Low revenue teams benefit from the share but looking at the money the Yankees are throwing around this offseason, there is no doubt that it is ineffective in maintaining a competitive balance.

MLS has a cap. Though the DP rule opens the door to loop holes in the cap for teams that have higher revenues. Any loop hole is potentially counter productive to the concept of an equal balance.

[Jack]

MLS seems to be doing ok right now.

Even if they move to give more freedom to owners, they still need to keep the cap in place.

The NHL, NFL or NBA is a better implementation of a cap than the ridiculous luxury tax in baseball.

[Oldtimer]

In my lifetime I've seen a lot of "nevers" come to pass:

Americans will never drive small Japanese cars.

Football will never be as popular as baseball, "America's pastime."

America will never have a black president.

And so on....

Never say never, anything really is possible. It's really just globalization. The days of American isolationism are over.

All I'm saying is if the Americans actually want to (maybe that's a big if, who knows) then there's no reason they won't dominate soccer the way do almost everything else (like it or not). Why wouldn't some Russian billionaire want to own a team in New York or LA? A couple more Americans buy EPL teams, they'll make a breakthrough in the US, too.

Gymnastics used to be Germany's top sport.
Competitive rowing used to be really big in England.

Canada's original official "national sport" was cricket! Now it's lacrosse.
In the GTA, local cricket scores used to be a prominent section of each newspaper. Now, no longer.
Professional hockey only started to become big in the 1930's, and really only hit prime time after WWII.

When I was a kid, boxing and roller derby were big. Now MMA has overtaken boxing and does roller derby even exist?

The point is, the sports market is in a flux. Sports come and go in popularity. Now it's time for soccer to become a truly major sport in North America. It will take up to 20 years, by my reckoning.

[Pookie]

The one factor that is overlooked is probably one of the most important.

Demographics.

David Foot from the U of T wrote a book called Boom, Bust and Echo and used population trends to explain behaviour.

He premise is simple. On average, people generally act the same way at similar ages. As people age and move through various cohorts (18-25, 25-35, etc), you can use their shear numbers to predict behaviour.

Younger people tend to play sports. Older folks tend to be more conservative in their views. Of course, that isn't to say that you won't find 65 year old hockey players.

As an example, younger people tend to commit more crimes. When there were a large number of youth between the ages of 18-25, there were more crimes. When the next generation went through, their numbers were smaller and the number of crimes went down. Has nothing really to do with policing or policies, though they can be a factor. It is simply a function of age groups.

On the sports front, people attending live sporting events tend to be under 40 with the most likely group under 30.

That group is in a "bust" scenario in that there are fewer in that cohort than there were 20 years ago.

As such, sports will be competing for fans in a shrinking fan pool.

MLS is well positioned for this competition as they are the amongst the most affordable and have a high participation rate in the under 20 age group that will identify with the sport.

But they have to tread carefully and offer real value for the dollar they seek.

[Cashcleaner]

The risk you have in giving teams more free reign is that you end up like MLB with a few teams in very big markets, throwing money around and buying their way into the post season.

Tampa was an exception last year but does anyone doubt that over time, the Yankees, Red Sox will get into the post season more often than Toronto under the current structure?

A strong league on the other hand is exactly the emphasis of the NFL, though it too is fighting to hold that concept vs those that want to make individual profits. It is what has allowed teams like Green Bay to compete and thrive against markets like Dallas and New York. If they move in the other direction, I dare say the competitiveness will erode to mirror that of MLB.

Lets stop talking about extremes, though. There can be a middleground we can reach with regards to club autonomy and league influence. All I'm suggesting is that we take roster control and some promotional aspects away from the league and put it in the hands of the individual owners. The NFL is strong because they have a Hard Cap and a Hard Floor - that's really why you can have teams like Green Bay thrive. We can still keep the salary cap even if we stripe the league of some of its powers, I don't know why we couldn't.

[Roogsy]

We can dislike the structure of the league all we want...but the thread is about whether the MLS is in decline. I am not sure if your point is whether you agree it's in decline or that you believe the structure simply restricts it's growth.

[rocker]

last night i was thinking about what MLS's goal should be.
We are always comparing MLS to European leagues, but to be honest MLS will probably never be as big as the EPL or whatever. That would require it supplanting pretty much every one of the big North American sports leagues.

But I'd like to see MLS get to a point where it might be a choice destination for players in North America and even South America. As long as we aren't losing players to Norway and Denmark or second divisions in Europe, I think at that point MLS would be in a pretty solid position. Anything more than that would be expecting too much i think. If we can get this reasonable position in 10-20 years, we'd have a pretty sweet level of quality. It's on that path. meanwhile I'll enjoy what we have and look forward to gains in the future if they come.

[Cashcleaner]

^^ But don't you think the very fundamental philosophy of the league has a lot to do with its success or failure? I would argue that while currently the league is in "okay" shape, it could begin to stagnant and decline for the reasons I've cited.

[RPB_RED_NATION_RPB]

Lets stop talking about extremes, though. There can be a middleground we can reach with regards to club autonomy and league influence. All I'm suggesting is that we take roster control and some promotional aspects away from the league and put it in the hands of the individual owners. The NFL is strong because they have a Hard Cap and a Hard Floor - that's really why you can have teams like Green Bay thrive. We can still keep the salary cap even if we stripe the league of some of its powers, I don't know why we couldn't.

TV revenue is a major factor in why the NFL is so strong..! Each team is givin....approx 70million a year through TV REVENUE.. IT basically covers each team's salary..owners dont have to lay a single dime to cover its team wages..its bascially givin to them

I do agree that we need to keep a salary cap...but it needs to atleaste hit the 5mill range

[Roogsy]

^^ But don't you think the very fundamental philosophy of the league has a lot to do with its success or failure? I would argue that while currently the league is in "okay" shape, it could begin to stagnant and decline for the reasons I've cited.

LOL!

I see your point...but what you are doing is speculating on the future. The current question is with regards to performance to this point not about the future.

From a business point of view, they have been incredibly disciplined and smart. And that is why the MLS has a good chance of surviving this recession. Had they taken a different approach, they could've been in peril. If it got them to this point, why would they change their business plan?

If we've learned anything from the financial debacle in the States, it's that undisciplined financial plans lead to disasters. We should be lauding those that have good business plans.

[TorCanSoc]

every franchise needs to turn a profit. WIth the potential to really bring in some dollars. Then MLS will rise.

[Cashcleaner]

LOL!

I see your point...but what you are doing is speculating on the future. The current question is with regards to performance to this point not about the future.

From a business point of view, they have been incredibly disciplined and smart. And that is why the MLS has a good chance of surviving this recession. Had they taken a different approach, they could've been in peril. If it got them to this point, why would they change their business plan?

If we've learned anything from the financial debacle in the States, it's that undisciplined financial plans lead to disasters. We should be lauding those that have good business plans.

That's good point, well...maybe. Its hard to talk about what-ifs, though. I mean, yes, the organisation isn't filing for Chapter 11, but on the flip side, we're not doing all that hot either.

I suppose I could say that yes, MLS isn't on the decline. It's not really on the upswing either. At least I wouldn't say it is.

[rocker]

although we'd probably never know if all MLS teams were making a profit anyways.

[Jack]

The one factor that is overlooked is probably one of the most important.

Demographics.

David Foot from the U of T wrote a book called Boom, Bust and Echo and used population trends to explain behaviour.

He premise is simple. On average, people generally act the same way at similar ages. As people age and move through various cohorts (18-25, 25-35, etc), you can use their shear numbers to predict behaviour.

Younger people tend to play sports. Older folks tend to be more conservative in their views. Of course, that isn't to say that you won't find 65 year old hockey players.

As an example, younger people tend to commit more crimes. When there were a large number of youth between the ages of 18-25, there were more crimes. When the next generation went through, their numbers were smaller and the number of crimes went down. Has nothing really to do with policing or policies, though they can be a factor. It is simply a function of age groups.

On the sports front, people attending live sporting events tend to be under 40 with the most likely group under 30.

That group is in a "bust" scenario in that there are fewer in that cohort than there were 20 years ago.

As such, sports will be competing for fans in a shrinking fan pool.

MLS is well positioned for this competition as they are the amongst the most affordable and have a high participation rate in the under 20 age group that will identify with the sport.

But they have to tread carefully and offer real value for the dollar they seek.
Demographics is only one predictor of behaviour. There are many other factors.

The other thing to remember is, the social mindset of Canada has changed a lot over the years and even though the whole "older = more conservative, younger=less" is generally true given the way our society has advanced, it's not necessarily true in the sense you would like to portray.

I haven't read that book yet, but I'll get to it. You might want to try "Sex in the Snow" by Michael Adams for a look at the changing face of Canadian social values in the last 30 years.

As a very "big picture" overview, Foot's theory is true. But when you get down to the level of local markets and the differentiation between different types of people in different types of neighbourhoods, it's a lot less cut and dried. There are more than one type of "old people" or "young people". Even "Baby Boomers" could easily be divided into sub-groups.

Anyway, I digress. MLS is moving along at a good pace. The league is relatively healthy financially and seems to be taking responsible steps to ensure its growth. This is also coming at a time when there are more footy-loving immigrants than ever in North America, both first and now more and more second generation.

[MUFC_Niagara]

Demographics is only one predictor of behaviour. There are many other factors.

The other thing to remember is, the social mindset of Canada has changed a lot over the years and even though the whole "older = more conservative, younger=less" is generally true given the way our society has advanced, it's not necessarily true in the sense you would like to portray.

I haven't read that book yet, but I'll get to it. You might want to try "Sex in the Snow" by Michael Adams for a look at the changing face of Canadian social values in the last 30 years.

As a very "big picture" overview, Foot's theory is true. But when you get down to the level of local markets and the differentiation between different types of people in different types of neighbourhoods, it's a lot less cut and dried. There are more than one type of "old people" or "young people". Even "Baby Boomers" could easily be divided into sub-groups.

Anyway, I digress. MLS is moving along at a good pace. The league is relatively healthy financially and seems to be taking responsible steps to ensure its growth. This is also coming at a time when there are more footy-loving immigrants than ever in North America, both first and now more and more second generation.

These people, for the most part, aren't going to MLS. This is clear from the attendance numbers. The league needs to reformat to attract football loving immigrants.

[rocker]

These people, for the most part, aren't going to MLS. This is clear from the attendance numbers. The league needs to reformat to attract football loving immigrants.

what about MLS do football loving immigrants dislike?

I see a lot of football loving immigrants at TFC games :)

[Roogsy]

These people, for the most part, aren't going to MLS. This is clear from the attendance numbers. The league needs to reformat to attract football loving immigrants.

You keep talking about the format of the league...but what needs to change? The immigrants aren't coming from England so why must we emulate the format in England?

Since the bulk of immigrants in the US are from Latin countries, should we have a Clausura and Apertura then?

[TFC Via Buffalo]

You keep talking about the format of the league...but what needs to change? The immigrants aren't coming from England so why must we emulate the format in England?

Since the bulk of immigrants in the US are from Latin countries, should we have a Clausura and Apertura then?

I will say that footy is taking a bit of a higher profile in the US, a very tiny bit. I actually see highlights during top 10 plays on ESPN from the EPL, MLS or other places on occasion. Maybe the TV deal with MLS is the reason. You never saw that awhile ago. Baby steps, but steps none the less.

[rocker]

I will say that footy is taking a bit of a higher profile in the US, a very tiny bit. I actually see highlights during top 10 plays on ESPN from the EPL, MLS or other places on occasion. Maybe the TV deal with MLS is the reason. You never saw that awhile ago. Baby steps, but steps none the less.

here I've noticed more soccer in general commercials. like you'll see some scene of kids playing soccer and it turns out to be an ad for pain relief or something. used to be hockey was the default sport in commercials.

[Keystone FC]

I will hold off on saying wether the MLS is in decline after all the expansion is done and 3 years after.
When there is expansion (in any league) there will be excitement and interest in who will get a team and how that team performs and how the city embraces them.
When all the SSS have been built and all the teams are set in their cities then we'll see.

[Beach_Red]

Ummmm, of course they're not the same. It's so obvious though, I didn't think it is even neccessary to mention. You've proven me wrong, I guess.

I mean that both organisations have a more hands-off approach to the day-to-day runnings of the clubs and ither has a single-entity ownership structure and I doubt they ever would consider such a concept. Both organisations have a primary duty to the overall welfare of the clubs, not to their own bottom line. MLS is markedly different in that regard. This is their fundamental philosophyies we're talking about. Its ideas and concepts that are deeply entrenched in their corporate body that places a higher emphasis on the league as a whole rather than all its parts combined. Take Toronto FC's visual identity for example. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I believe MLS holds the rights to our team's logo, name, and colours. Basically "Toronto FC" isn't owned by the club itself, its owned by the league that the club is a part of. I can't think of a similar instance of that happening in pro sports.

I strongly believe that we need to scrap the concept of the single-entity and give teams more free reign. The current system is in place to make the umbrella organisation a lot of money, but not so much for the individual clubs. Of course, TFC is making buckets of coin but I am confident we would be even more successful if we were calling more of the shots for ourselves.

Well, I was baiting you a little, I admit ;).

Officially, the other North American league aren't single-entity, sure, but they pretty much act as if they are.

The most sucessfull league, the NFL is pretty much a single-entity. It may not be as officially as MLS, but the NFL's success is pretty much entirely due to Pete Rozelle's running it as a single-entity and his legacy continues. Everyone says how important the NFL TV revenues are - which is certainly true - but what makes it work is that those revenues are almost completely shared. Each team may be individually-owned, but they all realize that no one team is bigger than the league and are under such league restrictions, it might as well be single-entity.

The same with the NBA, no one doubts David Stern runs the league, not the teams.

The NHL is trying to be centrally-run as much as it can be but a few owners don't want that - the Rangers are still fighting for control of their own website, aren't they, and the big teams will never share TV revenue - so it looks like five or six NHL teams could fold as early as next year.

The effects of each team being completely independent in the age of big international TV revenue is really only starting to be felt, but from what I've seen so far, it's not the way to go. More independence to each team will most likely result in a very big gap between have and have-not teams and many simply won't survive.

[Oldtimer]

The NHL is trying to be centrally-run as much as it can be but a few owners don't want that - the Rangers are still fighting for control of their own website, aren't they, and the big teams will never share TV revenue - so it looks like five or six NHL teams could fold as early as next year.

The effects of each team being completely independent in the age of big international TV revenue is really only starting to be felt, but from what I've seen so far, it's not the way to go. More independence to each team will most likely result in a very big gap between have and have-not teams and many simply won't survive.

It would actually be healthy for the NHL long-run to have a 24 team league. As it is right now, talent/sponsorhips/etc. are spread waayyy too thin.
I agree that MLS should remain single-entity. There needs to be more flexibility and transparency in how things are run, though. "Special' deals (particularly for LA or NY) should be out. Teams should have a cap, but with flexibility in how they are going to meet the cap restrictions. There is no need for the league FO to dictate how many senior/junior players a team should carry. As long as they aren't spending the league into oblivion (such as happened with the NASL, or more recently with the womens' W-League), GMs should have the ability to spend as they wish. A cap accomplishes this.

[Beach_Red]

^ Yes, I agree, the NHL would be better off at 24 teams. And eight of them should be in Canada.

I also agree with the rest of your post, and I imagine those things will all come in time. Making them happen at the right time is a challenge and there's not a lot of room for error, but there is some.

Let's hope MLS can learn from other leagues and do this right because it could someday be a great league.