Do you think MLS intervened in the DeRo trade?

[ensco]

It just seems to be weird. No one believes how little Houston got back for him. Check on bigsoccer and Ives - unbiased opinion is running 99% against the move from a Houston standpoint.

Don't you think a contender would have given up more than we did for him?

It's not really important that DeRo wanted to come here. Lots of guys want to be traded to their hometown. DeRo had no leverage, as there is no real free agency in MLS - DeRo would not have been able to just sign with TFC in 2010.

But from a league marketing point of view, this accomplishes something important. DeRo makes a difference in Toronto, just like McBride belongs in Chicago. (While I'm on this, is this some kind of quid-pro-quo for making the McBride thing happen?). Because of the single entity system, the league has an ability to intervene in player movement in ways you'd never see in other sports.

I suspect this was something the league office orchestrated, as they did with Ruiz in LA and McBride in Chicago. Just a hunch. If I'm right, Houston will get a player, or something else, for less than market value down the line.

[JDG]

The story is that Mo & his counterpart from Houston, were at an event to scout for the draft, and the discussion progressed naturally.
It seems like it was a matter of being at the right place at the right time, if the story is true.

[ensco]

The story is that Mo & his counterpart from Houston, were at an event to scout for the draft, and the discussion progressed naturally.
It seems like it was a matter of being at the right place at the right time, if the story is true.

I read that. But I don't buy it.

Let me elaborate. Ninth overall picks aren't worth much. They're lottery tickets. For every Michael Parkhurst (taken 8th), there are a ton of busts. Since Julius James really didn't show much last year, that ticket is now worth very little. The other guys we have taken in similar slots in the draft (Phelan and Boyens) have been essentially given away.

[Cashcleaner]

It's a possibility, ensco. Like you said, the way MLS works with regards to player transactions is unlike anything we've really seen before.

McBride to Chicago and DeRo to Toronto is awfully convenient. I'll be honest, if its true and the league has gone out of its way to ensure Dwayne comes to Toronto, it does take some shine away from the good news. I'd rather we acquired him through good deal-making and negotiation, rather than just have the league step in and make it so.

[Damien]

As crazy as it sounds, James was well sought after among a few MLS teams. Plus, Houston has a natural replacement for DeRo in Stuart Holden.

It wasn't a complete ripoff. From our standpoint, we see it that way cuz everyone wanted DeRo to come home.

[DOMIN8R]

Houston news reports that DeRo made it clear he wanted to go to Toronto. If true, Houston wouldn't be in a very good bargaining position. When a top flight player says he wants to go - you get what you can. In this case it was JJ and some $$$.

[Bobo]

Its something that's crossed my mind too but would the league be that friendly to TFC? Nothing thus far would have me think so.

[FluSH]

Houston We Have A Problem!

[ua-kozak_TFC]

ok i think these speculations are RIDICULOUS... why? Because if they could intervene they would have done so before way earlier... than 2 years into the frincize... don;t you think. Plus I think James is seen not as bad around the league as we see him, since everytime he came in he was very dangerous in the offence with his deadly headers. Al though not a superstar but i think huston think they invested in the future. i think Julius can be come a really good player with some good mentoring ( to be frank we don;t really have a good center to be his role model....) and playing time can do wonders....

[Flipityflu]

i don't agree. i think you need to look at it another way.Houston got exactly what it wanted...and that was cap space. if you want to create cap space, you need to trade away salary, in which case you don't want alot of salary back. hence James. i figure the option was either a 1st round draft pick or the allocation money, and they went for the money.

houston will grab a DP now i think, which seems to be the direction they are going.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

As crazy as it sounds, James was well sought after among a few MLS teams. Plus, Houston has a natural replacement for DeRo in Stuart Holden.

It wasn't a complete ripoff. From our standpoint, we see it that way cuz everyone wanted DeRo to come home.


yep, pretty much

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

As crazy as it sounds, James was well sought after among a few MLS teams. Plus, Houston has a natural replacement for DeRo in Stuart Holden.

It wasn't a complete ripoff. From our standpoint, we see it that way cuz everyone wanted DeRo to come home.


James is in his early 20's while DeRo 30, james will be around a lot longer
in the future while DeRo has 2 good years left, maybe 3..So overall Houston edges the deal, but If DeRo helpd TFC to the playoffs and maybe a Canada Cup oit would be worth it.

[tfc_4_ever]

James is in his early 20's while DeRo 30, james will be around a lot longer
in the future while DeRo has 2 good years left, maybe 3..So overall Houston edges the deal, but If DeRo helpd TFC to the playoffs and maybe a Canada Cup oit would be worth it.


isnt james 24, hardly a early 20's...

[rocker]

I know the trade is lopsided in terms of players right now... but as mentioned, this league has freaky ground rules, and if you take it all together, maybe Houston at least ended up even in the trade.. Why? it depends on the future use of that cap space and allocation.

Toronto gets
1) De Rosario

Houston gets
1) James
2) Allocation (125-150K)
3) Frees up cap space, which is very valuable in this league (330K).

So if Houston is smart, they can turn that Allocation and cap space into possible 2 solid players. So the trade becomes:

James, Player 1, Player 2 for De Rosario.

When you look at it that way, it makes more sense and it has nothing to do with the league engineering the trade. Mo said himself he asked about De Rosario over the past two years and this was the time they accepted.

I personally don't think James is much at all.. he might not even be with houston in 2 years.
But if they get a DP and maybe a decent 100K player too, they might be ahead in the deal. that's for the future to decide.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

James is in his early 20's while DeRo 30, james will be around a lot longer
in the future while DeRo has 2 good years left, maybe 3..So overall Houston edges the deal, but If DeRo helpd TFC to the playoffs and maybe a Canada Cup oit would be worth it.


Schelloto is still killing it at 35, whos to say that De Ros gonna burn out in 2 years. He might feel reborn playing in his hometown. Alot of assumptions here. A player could be around alot longer but contribute very little...

[Cashcleaner]

^ I think that's exactly what's gonna happen with DeRo in Toronto. Back in Houston, I doubt he got the same sort of recognition that he could get here at home. Having the soccer fans of the city get behind him like we probably will can do a lot for a guy.

[ensco]

All of you walking through the arguments about Houston freeing up cap space, how JJ is really in demand etc.....check out the Houston supporters threads. They're in total shock over how little they got back.

Besides you've missed my point.

My only question is: is this really what the best offer for DeRo was? Or did the league intervene and not allow any other offers to come forward?

I suspect the latter. We'll see.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Nah, i think it was pretty straight forward. Dudes older, paid his dues to the league, his team, wants to come home, asked for a transfer. Plain and simple.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

like everyone has said, theyve got Holden who looks to be the same type of player but younger

[ensco]

Nah, i think it was pretty straight forward. Dudes older, paid his dues to the league, his team, wants to come home, asked for a transfer. Plain and simple.

I get that. And I get that they have Holden. But those aren't reasons to give DeRo away.

I would have needed more than JJ, a lot more, if I ran Houston. Anyone who thinks JJ has real trade value has gotten deep into the magic mushroom bag.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

For sure, i agree, i just dont see anything or anyone (at Houston that is) openly saying they got screwed (outside of the fans). I would imagine if we were prying a player they highly valued (as we would assume they would with De Ro) they would speak up as many others have (see Chicago/TFC, Chicago/NJ, Columbus/Seattle) in sketchy situations.

[Jack]

I think on the surface it looks like a steal, but when you examine it more closely, JJ still has the potential and Houston has a direct replacement for DeRo. I think it's a trade that will be beneficial for both teams, but Houston's benefit won't be apparent immediately.

[Roogsy]

I agree...it's a trade both teams needed. Yeah it works for us...but it's not like Houston is getting hosed here.

[ensco]

I agree...it's a trade both teams needed. Yeah it works for us...but it's not like Houston is getting hosed here.

These fairy tales about James are too much. If I'd asked "what would you expect to get for JJ" in a poll 2 days ago, the winning answer would have been "a bag of balls".

Phelan got traded for an allocation, Boyens got released. James, taken in a similar slot,

(i) only got PT because of injuries/international duty, and
(ii) had more bad moments than good,
(iii) will be 25 next season (ie he is not young, so he has no euro transfer upside).....

and you're telling me Houston didn't get hosed?

Maybe Houston wanted/needed to move DeRo. But they got hosed. Bad.

[RedRum]

I think ensco is bang on (he beat me to the post lol). Remember how long Mo waited trying to get Rolfe or Mapp? He was certainly in no rush to make a conference rival a better team and seemed like he was willing to wait it out forever.

I think the league gave Mo a call and said settle for Barrett and we'll hook you up with DeRo. It fits so well with the MLS way of doing things.

[Roogsy]

I think the league gave Mo a call and said settle for Barrett and we'll hook you up with DeRo. It fits so well with the MLS way of doing things.

It's possible. It's also possible that DeRo did indeed ask for a trade and Kinnear obliged and MLS had little to do with it. Either situation is very plausible.

[RedRum]

I'm still with ensco. We all had such high hopes for JJ this year and he did little but leave us shaking our head - despite getting alot of minutes to atone for early errors like Velez did before he faltered. He's 24 not 19 or 20 and showed much less than expected.

Granted the allocation is nice chunk of change but still...

Houston got hosed LARGE.

[Nuvinho]

McBride wanted to come home to Chicago - We got Barrett and a 1st rounder

DeRo wanted to come home to Toronto - We gave up JJ and cash

If a player will only play for ONE team, its hard for the team to demand a lot in a trade, when the player has his mind set.

[mlsintoronto]

Wow. Was there a second shooter too?

[ensco]

If a player will only play for ONE team, its hard for the team to demand a lot in a trade, when the player has his mind set.

If I'm Houston, so what?

If DeRo demanded a trade, then Houston wouldn't have to do anything they didn't want to - DeRo's only leverage is to holdout (which ain't much leverage - just ask Twellman)

If Houston did want to do something, the logical step is to have an auction. Look what DC got for Gomez last year (a DP slot and a first round pick)

Does the DeRo deal seriously look like the outcome of an auction to you?

[Roogsy]

Because DC was moving Gomez...not because Gomez wanted to go to Colorado.

The plain fact is that in soccer, the player has more say in their career than a, NFL player for example.

There is nothing here that would suggest to me the MLS stepped in. DeRo gave that organization many good years and I think they respected him enough that when he said "I want to go home" they said "we'll work something out".

[ensco]

Wow. Was there a second shooter too?

Actually Paul he wasn't even shot. It was single-massive-spike-in-blood-pressure syndrome.

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/new_theories_suggest_kennedy_wasnt

[ensco]

OK seriously now that Paul has stepped in, we can close the thread.

I believe him when he tells us the fix wasn't in (in his inimitable way!)

Boy did we soak the Dynamo, though!

[Mark in Ottawa]

You all seem to assume that JJ will stay in Houston.
Who knows maybe they have others interested who will take him for... other assets.

Who cares. Let's just hope DeRo can play ok on the turf in Toronto.

[Beach_Red]

Does the DeRo deal seriously look like the outcome of an auction to you?

It's the product of a league with a salary cap and small rosters. Sure, they could have had an auction, but how many teams could add another $300-$400,000 salary and still be under the cap? Thentey'd have to move someone.

The Houston boards I saw thought the deal was so they could go after a DP - now that they had the cap space and $600,000 cash to spend.

[neuf]

Schelloto is still killing it at 35, whos to say that De Ros gonna burn out in 2 years. He might feel reborn playing in his hometown. Alot of assumptions here. A player could be around alot longer but contribute very little...

This is pretty much how I see it.

Houston desperately needs defenders, and JJ was pretty hyped up during the draft. He performed poorly this year, but he may still improve with more playing time and a different coaching style. It is a gamble on their part, but since DeRo's performance slipped slightly last year, it is a risk that they are willing to take given that DeRo wanted to go home and the chances of him improving where he was unhappy are unlikely.

It could end up being a win-win situation for both sides if Houston's gamble pays off.

edit: oops, looks like I'm reiterating a bit.. guess I should read the thread before tossing in my two cents.

[GhostPK]

Anyone else think that a combination of DeRo wanting to come home plus little to no cap space was the major factor? I mean sure other teams could have offered Houston more for Dero, but under a new contract DeRo could have demanded DP wages. Who else could really afford that trade?

This is total speculation as I haven't seen the numbers, but is it possible DeRo took a salary hit to come to toronto? Has anyone seen the numbers?

[Damien]

Schelloto is still killing it at 35, whos to say that De Ros gonna burn out in 2 years. He might feel reborn playing in his hometown. Alot of assumptions here. A player could be around alot longer but contribute very little...

Exactly. Plus if we keep Winsper or someone of equal/greater value then we could get a lot more out of DeRo then we could imagine.

[Shakes McQueen]

- DeRo made it known that he wanted to go to Toronto
- Houston needed cap space
- Holden was ready to become a regular starter in MLS, according to most

All of this adds up to both a desire to get rid of expensive contracts like DeRo's, but also a weak bargaining position on Houston's part. I don't think MLS intervened at all.

And if you think about it, Houston really didn't do THAT badly. They shed a large contract, got a project player with a small contract in return, and some additional financial wiggle room in the form of allocation.

I think they could have gotten a 1st round pick, or maybe more allocation, if DeRo hadn't stated his desire to come here. But that's about it.

- Scott

[Marc"2L"]

DeRo is the reason DeRo is playing for Toronto....

[rocker]

I would have needed more than JJ, a lot more, if I ran Houston. Anyone who thinks JJ has real trade value has gotten deep into the magic mushroom bag.

I think JJ is a pretty shitty to be honest. But you're just looking at this from a player to player comparison at this moment in time.
you're seeing "De Ro for JJ".. that's certainly a joke for sure.
But look at the abstract side of it.... 330K of space means a heckuva lot in this league. 125K allocation as well means a lot, particularly for an American team that can find a nice American player at that price. If they get 2 good players with that money, no matter how shitty JJ performs, that's probably better than 1 De Rosario.

In terms of JJ, I'm not sure what else Houston could have gotten from MoJo that's cheap and reasonable. Smith's contract might be going up (according to guesses that his $$ last year was prorated). Rosenlund is unknown to them probably. Velez is older. Mo aint gonna give up Edwards. Everyone else is very important and too expensive for Houston. Why would they take a 125K allocation and then take on a 100K+ player as well?
JJ was the cheap option to get a warm body.

no conspiracy.

[Pookie]

I know the trade is lopsided in terms of players right now... but as mentioned, this league has freaky ground rules, and if you take it all together, maybe Houston at least ended up even in the trade.. Why? it depends on the future use of that cap space and allocation.

Toronto gets
1) De Rosario

Houston gets
1) James
2) Allocation (125-150K)
3) Frees up cap space, which is very valuable in this league (330K).

So if Houston is smart, they can turn that Allocation and cap space into possible 2 solid players. So the trade becomes:

James, Player 1, Player 2 for De Rosario.


You are 100% correct IMO.

Cap space is a very valuable commodity as it provides flexibility and options.

I have no problem with the trade from either club's standpoint. Each got something they wanted.

I do find it a little "stinky" that De Rosario could make the public comments that he did about wanting to play in Toronto BEFORE the trade went down. Similarly, TFC 's interest in him wasn't exactly hidden.

This isn't a knock on the above as this is something that happens throughout the various football leagues.

That said, other sports have tampering rules for players under contract that at least on the surface prevent these things from becoming public. I think that's a good thing.

[ensco]

While I am glad to concede the point, I would note that you can always "free up" cap space by just releasing expensive players. Houston didn't need Toronto or anyone else to do that. Laurent Robert and Carlos Ruiz made more than DeRo in 2008, but that didn't mean they had the same trade value.

I'm just stunned at how low the price was compared to that paid by other teams for veterans with value - I mean, we got a lot more for McBride, and DC got a lot more for Gomez, than Houston got for DeRo. I would have thought DeRo had more trade value than either McBride or Gomez - he's done more, recently, in MLS.

[DOMIN8R]

At the risk of re-energizing this debate, I believe that Houston recently announced that it will not seek a DP in 2009.

[wzhxvy]

This is my opinion: MLS might not have rcherstrate tdhis but they might be pulling strings here and there. The reason I say that is there are quite a few rumours out there regarding Wynne going to Europe. Remember they get a piece of the action if a player is sold. So that would be two young players that Tororto would have lost in the space of less than a year...where MLS have pocketed a good chunk of change. So my guess is that they know the Wynne move is coming...and facilitated this exchange with Houston. I do not expect anyone from TFC to confirm this...just my gut feeling.

[FluSH]

This is my opinion: MLS might not have rcherstrate tdhis but they might be pulling strings here and there. The reason I say that is there are quite a few rumours out there regarding Wynne going to Europe. Remember they get a piece of the action if a player is sold. So that would be two young players that Tororto would have lost in the space of less than a year...where MLS have pocketed a good chunk of change. So my guess is that they know the Wynne move is coming...and facilitated this exchange with Houston. I do not expect anyone from TFC to confirm this...just my gut feeling.


I would just see huge law suits by some of the owners of these teams that would not want their players beign pimped by MLS to Europe. Sure you get 2/3's of the transfer money... but you are trying to build a team and a fan base. Not to mention a respectable league in North America.

[BuSaPuNk]

It all comes down to Dero wanted to come home. Nothing else.....You really are hijacked when a player comes out and says "hey i want to go play here"...he put Houston on the hotseat and they had to move him. It's a all round good trade for both teams. We got who we want....and Houston got cap space, allocation, and a young player in James.

[jloome]

All of you walking through the arguments about Houston freeing up cap space, how JJ is really in demand etc.....check out the Houston supporters threads. They're in total shock over how little they got back.

Besides you've missed my point.

My only question is: is this really what the best offer for DeRo was? Or did the league intervene and not allow any other offers to come forward?

I suspect the latter. We'll see.

This theory doesn't hold; Houston has said publicly that DeRo asked to be moved. THey're not going to hold onto a player who doesn't want to be there, and that leaves them no bargaining power. Other offers would have no relevance if the player is intent on moving to a particularl city, and given the precarious nature of the single-owner entity with respect to labour law, they're exceptionally unlikely to deny a player of DeRosario's pedigree. He has an unmatched resume within this league.

[ensco]

This theory doesn't hold; Houston has said publicly that DeRo asked to be moved. THey're not going to hold onto a player who doesn't want to be there, and that leaves them no bargaining power. Other offers would have no relevance if the player is intent on moving to a particularl city, and given the precarious nature of the single-owner entity with respect to labour law, they're exceptionally unlikely to deny a player of DeRosario's pedigree. He has an unmatched resume within this league.

Can you elaborate on this? I've never seen this anywhere.....

[Danbwoy]

Didn't MLS have a hand in bringing Donovan to LA? Also, I doubt the league would've let Toronto entertain other offers for McBride. This move has incredible benefits for the franchise and, hence, the league. It's a compelling theory, but I doubt it'll ever come to light. I definitely think MLS had a hand in it, along with Dwayne's own wishes and timely negotiations between Mo and the Dynamo brass.

[Beach_Red]

This theory doesn't hold; Houston has said publicly that DeRo asked to be moved. THey're not going to hold onto a player who doesn't want to be there, and that leaves them no bargaining power. Other offers would have no relevance if the player is intent on moving to a particularl city, and given the precarious nature of the single-owner entity with respect to labour law, they're exceptionally unlikely to deny a player of DeRosario's pedigree. He has an unmatched resume within this league.

And the timing was also Houston's decision. as Mo has been quoted saying, he's been after DeRo since the day he started at TFC - if MLS was going to get involved to make it happen, why now? Why not last year or even season 1?

Who said in another thread we should be thanking NYRB because by knocking Houston out of the playoffs early it pushed them into rebuilding mode quicker?

Houston is coming off two recent championships but they're starting to slide, it's time to rebuild.

Really, how many other teams could add a player making maximum non-DP money (or close to it) without moving another player of similar value to make room? Houston didn't want another 30 year old highly-paid player, they wanted youth and money. Maybe they asked for players other than JJ (Smith and/or Ibbe? maybe even Wynne) but what they needed was cap space and money.

TFC went to Texas this week with cash in hand looking to buy and Houston needed to sell. Hey, I was just driving home in the car and the Stones' You Can't Always get What You Want was on the radio. Houston got the best deal they could at this time. If they don't make big changes to the roster, why would they think they'd go any further in the playoffs next year than they did this year?

No, sorry, I think this was just pure opportunism on the part of TFC and good for them for being in a position to take advantage of the situation.

[Oldtimer]

No, sorry, I think this was just pure opportunism on the part of TFC and good for them for being in a position to take advantage of the situation.

+1

Trader Mo!

[greatwhitenorf]

I'm not so sure the conspiracy theories apply here.

Because my son plays defence on his rep and high school team, we find ourselves paying attention to the play of defenders more often than other players. And sometimes guys in those CB positions don't get spotlighted unless they make errors. Taking up a sensible position and reading a play so well that a pass or shot doesn't happen often doesn't make a highlight reel.

Didn't make it to every home game, but went to many and don't recall being much disappointed by Julius James' play when we he was out there. Thought he used his head very well to read the game and position himself sensibly. Plus he had the athletic ability to often overcome a lapse in judgement. I liked him.

He looks a very promising defender who could play for a long time in this league. Can't see why this deal, for a talented, but aging, midfielder, needs to be draped in conspiracy theories.

At the very least, you could say Houston were good league citizens and maybe gave up DeRo a year or so before they might have wanted to. But DeRo's been a good servant as well and deserving of some consideration at this crucial stage in his career.

It looks like two clubs practising mutually good management and if the league got involved in this, well good for them as well.

[Mark in Ottawa]

Could this deal be like those weird hockey deals... you know the ones... the ones with "future considerations" attached?

[ensco]

This theory doesn't hold; Houston has said publicly that DeRo asked to be moved. THey're not going to hold onto a player who doesn't want to be there, and that leaves them no bargaining power.

There has been much discussion of the question of Houston's bargaining power (most of the 16 pages on the DeRo trade topic) on the Houston bigsoccer blog.

I would say that the vast majority of Houston opinion would answer this point with the following, representative, quote:

You get fair value or you don't agree to the deal. If DeRo wanted to go, then getting fair value for the Dynamo was his problem. You have to be ruthless in business. Look how TFC held up Brian McBride returning until they got compensation.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I'm going to assume that MLS has fingers in any trade that involves a former MVP of the league. I don't like it but it's the league where we live.

[JonO]

You get fair value or you don't agree to the deal. If DeRo wanted to go, then getting fair value for the Dynamo was his problem. You have to be ruthless in business. Look how TFC held up Brian McBride returning until they got compensation.
The McBride comparison doesn't really work because he wasn't playing for TFC, so we could piss him off, not trade him, etc and it wouldn't affect our team. Houston wasn't in the same position.

Let just assume that Houston refused to play ball. They would have an expensive, unhappy player on their team and the reputation of screwing over their players....

[Lucky Strike]

The McBride comparison doesn't really work because he wasn't playing for TFC, so we could piss him off, not trade him, etc and it wouldn't affect our team. Houston wasn't in the same position.

Let just assume that Houston refused to play ball. They would have an expensive, unhappy player on their team and the reputation of screwing over their players....

That's just what I was thinking. I personally don't really think MLS was involved in any way, but again if it turned out that they were, I wouldn't be surprised at the same time.

[JonO]

That's just what I was thinking. I personally don't really think MLS was involved in any way, but again if it turned out that they were, I wouldn't be surprised at the same time.
Agreed - wouldn't surprise me if they were, but to assume that off the bat smacks of paranoia... :willy_nilly:

[Beach_Red]

That's just what I was thinking. I personally don't really think MLS was involved in any way, but again if it turned out that they were, I wouldn't be surprised at the same time.

Except if MLS was involved it would have taken another three months to close the deal and we would have had to give up Marvel Wynne. I like JJ, but he's not Chad Barrett....

[ensco]

The McBride comparison doesn't really work because he wasn't playing for TFC, so we could piss him off, not trade him, etc and it wouldn't affect our team. Houston wasn't in the same position.

Let just assume that Houston refused to play ball. They would have an expensive, unhappy player on their team and the reputation of screwing over their players....

This is a good point. It's not the fact that they moved him, it's what they got back that mystifies me (I hear you re McBride being different).

When Brett Favre or Eric Lindros tried to pick the teams they moved to, they got told to buzz off. Different sports, different everything, I know, but it's how markets for players work - teams have a duty to maximize value in these circumstances, not recognize long-term loyalty.

I still think that something is going on here that doesn't quite add up. JJ is the equivalent of a bag of balls in MLS trade value terms.

I'll stop now.

[Stugatzo]

Wow. Was there a second shooter too?
It's all about the grassy knowle...or is it the Beyonce Knowles??:hump:

[JonO]

Ensco - one more point: Barrett was not highly rated when he came here. A lot of Chicago fans were laughing at the trade (sound familiar?) ;)

[Roogsy]

^ This is true. Mo wanted Rolfe and Chicago wasn't willing to give him up. Because MLS wanted the deal done, we had to settle for Barrett, who has been a solid pick up in my opinion.

[rocker]

Ensco - one more point: Barrett was not highly rated when he came here. A lot of Chicago fans were laughing at the trade (sound familiar?) ;)

Chicago fans loved his effort. They just said he couldn't finish. And in the end, he scored about as much in Toronto as he did in Chicago.
I guess he just had less baggage here.

[Leafs 92/93]

Dero obviously went to management and said trade me or you'll get nothing when I leave.

As for coming to Toronto, I bet he's nursing a very tiny injury that was no problem in Houston, but will be his nagging downfall this season and the next on the tretcherous toronto turf. If there is one thing Toronto sports teams are good at, it's ruining good players.

[Jack]

Dero obviously went to management and said trade me or you'll get nothing when I leave.

As for coming to Toronto, I bet he's nursing a very tiny injury that was no problem in Houston, but will be his nagging downfall this season and the next on the tretcherous toronto turf. If there is one thing Toronto sports teams are good at, it's ruining good players.
That's for sure!

Wendel Clark...ruined!

Doug Gilmour...ruined!

Vince Carter...ruined!

Roy Halladay...ruined!

Chris Bosh...ruined!

Curtis Joseph...ruined!

Roberto Alomar...ruined!

and if you want a TFC example...we really ruined the hell out of Amado Guevara!


:rolleyes:

[Flipityflu]

Chicago fans loved his effort. They just said he couldn't finish. And in the end, he scored about as much in Toronto as he did in Chicago.
I guess he just had less baggage here.


i wouldn't under-estimate the work he's had with Winsper. i think that will have a great effect on his goal tally simply by being able to play with energy for 90 minutes. we have already seen him increase his stamina as the season progressed. sometimes, its the simple things that make a difference.

[rocker]

i wouldn't under-estimate the work he's had with Winsper. i think that will have a great effect on his goal tally simply by being able to play with energy for 90 minutes. we have already seen him increase his stamina as the season progressed. sometimes, its the simple things that make a difference.

ya, that will. But what i was talking about is that in Chicago they grew frustrated with him not because he couldn't play 90 minutes but because he couldn't finish scoring chances.. There are youtube highlight reels of him blowing the easiest chances.. He blew some of those here too, although I don't think he had quite as many of those opportunities in toronto to draw attention to himself.
His hustle, which Chicago fans loved, was still there in toronto.

[ensco]

We should do a Barrett thread at some point. He really is an interesting case. He was picked 3rd overall, came into MLS with a lot of hype, and there were huge expectations for the guy.

He definitely showed some ability/promise once he came over. He played well with Dichio, which Cunny never did/could. But is Barrett really a reliable 15 goal scorer? Can he be the striker on a championship team? I think the answer is, probably no.....

(I agree with those who say his value at the time of the deal was about the same as JJ's was in the DeRo trade - of course Chicago also gave up an a first rounder, which we didn't, Barrett was more of a "throw in" in the McBride deal, in my mind....which is the heart of my argument in this thread....but I digress)

[Beach_Red]

We should do a Barrett thread at some point. He really is an interesting case. He was picked 3rd overall, came into MLS with a lot of hype, and there were huge expectations for the guy.

He definitely showed some ability/promise once he came over. He played well with Dichio, which Cunny never did/could. But is Barrett really a reliable 15 goal scorer? Can he be the striker on a championship team? I think the answer is, probably no.....

(I agree with those who say his value at the time of the deal was about the same as JJ's was in the DeRo trade - of course Chicago also gave up an a first rounder, which we didn't, Barrett was more of a "throw in" in the McBride deal, in my mind....which is the heart of my argument in this thread....but I digress)

Yes, you're right, we should have a Barrett thread, maybe a poll, how many will he score this year. I say 15. And 15 a year for a few more years to come. And yes, he will be on a championship team, TFC.

Barrett impressed me as a guy who expected as much hustle from everyone else as he does from himself. And he gives himself as much shit for not producing as he does other guys.

As for the trade, you know, life is timing. It's all about what's 'the best' within the time frame allowed. With one game left in the season heading for the playoffs Houston would've laughed long and hard at JJ and allocation money for DeRo. A quick exit from the playoffs and watching other teams getting better and they were suddenly motivated. It'll be interesting to see what they do next.

[jloome]

Can you elaborate on this? I've never seen this anywhere.....

The player's union has challenged it twice in court under U.S. anti-trust legislation. It has lost both times, with one of the primary arguments the league used successfully being it was never multiple entities colluding; that argument is a lot easier for a court to accept, I think you'd agree, when the majority of players affected by the decision do not have domestic alternatives that would, on average, lead to higher wage demands. No competition (wage-wise) equals no anti-trust.

With USL's average money still being below MLS, the only players who can easily argue that single entity restricts their ability to maximize their incomes are the ones in a position to go overseas with ease, in effect eliminating the domesticity of the market as a consideration. Take that argument, then go back over the last few years and look at the players the league has "accomodated." Every one of them either played overseas already, or has had significant ongoing interest: McBride, Ruiz, Donovan, and now DeRo.

So I'd suggest this "flexibility" has a lot to do with a league-wide accepted policy of not making waves with players who have some latituide. If that's MLS interfering, then I agree with you. But we coudl also assume that Houston, knowing this, didn't even have to go to head office to get a ruling. It just assumed the standard would hold true.

[jloome]

We should do a Barrett thread at some point. He really is an interesting case. He was picked 3rd overall, came into MLS with a lot of hype, and there were huge expectations for the guy.

He definitely showed some ability/promise once he came over. He played well with Dichio, which Cunny never did/could. But is Barrett really a reliable 15 goal scorer? Can he be the striker on a championship team? I think the answer is, probably no.....


I'd also disagree with this, even though it's currently true. The guy is only 23. He's taken the route most developing strikers take of incremental improvement. That's why most, even the best, aren't seen as peaking before 27 or 28.

Let's look at this objectively:
• He creates chances, but blows a lot of them. But nine goals (and eight the year before, I believe) still put him in the top 10 in the league in scoring and he's only 23. He went from one goal, to eight goals, to nine goals. Is it a stretch to say he might have 10 or 11 next season if that trend continues? No. Could we then expect that, as he hits the prime of his career, he'll finish even more of those chances. Maybe.
• He has a good second gear. Once he has space, he can blow by defenders.
• HE can shoot with extreme power. In fact, so much that reigning in his shot would probably lead to more of those misses winding up in the net.
• He actually scored more for a team -- us -- that forced its frontmen to create their own chances due to poor play than for a team -- Chicago-- with some of the best setup men in Blanco and Mapp in the league.

The skill is there. In fact, he was very dangerous at times at creating space, which is why he also had seven assists -- a contribution that can't be overlooked. In fact, if he only ever wound up scoring 10 and chipping in six or seven assists, he would be a major offensive threat by MLS standards, and that's only one point more than he contributed to this year.

The question is whether he has the head for improvement; perhaps he needs kid gloves: after all, he'd never had the fitness-level to go a whole game before getting to Toronto, which indicates his trainers weren't paying attention. Can he learn to take open one-one-one chances and bury them in the lower corner, instead of blasting the ball wide and high repeatedly?

[ensco]

The player's union has challenged it twice in court under U.S. anti-trust legislation. It has lost both times, with one of the primary arguments the league used successfully being it was never multiple entities colluding; that argument is a lot easier for a court to accept, I think you'd agree, when the majority of players affected by the decision do not have domestic alternatives that would, on average, lead to higher wage demands. No competition (wage-wise) equals no anti-trust.

With USL's average money still being below MLS, the only players who can easily argue that single entity restricts their ability to maximize their incomes are the ones in a position to go overseas with ease, in effect eliminating the domesticity of the market as a consideration. Take that argument, then go back over the last few years and look at the players the league has "accomodated." Every one of them either played overseas already, or has had significant ongoing interest: McBride, Ruiz, Donovan, and now DeRo.

So I'd suggest this "flexibility" has a lot to do with a league-wide accepted policy of not making waves with players who have some latituide. If that's MLS interfering, then I agree with you. But we coudl also assume that Houston, knowing this, didn't even have to go to head office to get a ruling. It just assumed the standard would hold true.

Thanks. That is very interesting. The implication of this is that the league has to be far more involved in trades that involve significant players than it would be in any other sport.

I'd take issue with the characterization of DeRo (today) as a player with significant options away from MLS, btw....two years ago, maybe even one year ago, that's a different story

[jloome]

Thanks. That is very interesting. The implication of this is that the league has to be far more involved in trades that involve significant players than it would be in any other sport.

I'd take issue with the characterization of DeRo (today) as a player with significant options away from MLS, btw....two years ago, maybe even one year ago, that's a different story

I guess the issue is often reality versus perception; while there's no doubt he was going to have work-permit problems for Blackburn or Man City (the two most interested) he also has the Scandinavian fall back, as Copenhagen were looking at pairing him up with Atiba in the midfield. So that might have kept him in that loop as well.

[TorCanSoc]

This is one of those league involvement questions that never seemed to get answered.

On the subject of DeRo. He's going to have a world of pressure on him, like he's never seen before that's for sure. He had some pressure on him during the World Cup, but must of it went onto DeGuzman and he was quality throughout.... dammit if his ringer off the cross-bar during the Jamaica game went in... it could've all been different... but I digress.

I've followed DeRo since his Lynx days. Its a spectacular day for him to come here. But man he's going to have to deliver right out of the gate. I'd say in our soccer community, he's got as much pressure on him to deliver as a Mats Sundin ever did. And knowing DeRo, knowing his skill, knowing the smile on face when he first steps out onto BMO with a red shirt on... he's going to tear the league a new A-Hole !!! I think he's going to double his Houston goals ouput, 7 goals. I expect 10 goals for sure.

[BuSaPuNk]

^ I agree with that. You would be amazed how he is going to play infront of his hometown fans. He is going to be on fire when he puts that red shirt on him. Is it just be or is just the thought of DeRo coming out on the pitch in the TFC red give you goosebumps??

[Jack]

I guess the issue is often reality versus perception; while there's no doubt he was going to have work-permit problems for Blackburn or Man City (the two most interested) he also has the Scandinavian fall back, as Copenhagen were looking at pairing him up with Atiba in the midfield. So that might have kept him in that loop as well.
Wouldn't he qualify based on his international appearances? Or is Canada ranked too low?

[jloome]

Wouldn't he qualify based on his international appearances? Or is Canada ranked too low?

It isn't now, but it was when they were inquiring after him.

[Oldtimer]

Dero obviously went to management and said trade me or you'll get nothing when I leave.



Not true. Houston would continue to hold his MLS rights even when his contract runs out. The only way they'd get nothing is if he went overseas.
Let's give some credit to Mo for getting a good deal. He's done it before.

[Steve]

Not true. Houston would continue to hold his MLS rights even when his contract runs out. The only way they'd get nothing is if he went overseas.
Let's give some credit to Mo for getting a good deal. He's done it before.

Agreed. I don't think the league had anything to do with this. Here is the situation:

You have one team who just came off 2 MLS Cup wins, then didn't make it to the final. Kinnear looks at his roster, sees that his core group is either aging, or looking to move on, and has to make a choice. Does he keep on pushing for the cup, or does he enter into a rebuilding phase (not at all uncommon in north american pro sports, especially with the draft and the salary cap). Obviously his choice is to start rebuilding, put some pressure on the young kids, and hopefully put a core group together that will challenge for the cup in 3-5 years again. So, in order to do that he has to move DeRo (a very expensive player and, at 30 years old, one not likely to be part of the next generation of Dynamo players).

This is where dealing savy comes in. DeRo is expensive. Expensive contracts are always going to be difficult to move, but DeRo is also a legend in the league, so Kinnear thinks he has some good cards to deal. Which is where the other shoe falls. It's not a secret that DeRo wants to play for Toronto. This makes him too expensive for most teams to take a chance on (why trade for a player that doesn't want to play for you? We've done it, and it's kind of hit and miss). That's when Mo steps in. Mo is smart, he knows that he has the upper hand (something not all managers would keep in mind when faced with the prospect of attaining a star player you've had your eye on for 2 years). Instead of offering Kinnear a blank cheque (as I'm sure most people on the board would have done) he gives him enough of what Kinnear needs to make it worthwhile (money and a young prospect) but ONLY that amount. Mo knew full well that Kinnear couldn't afford to turn down the offer, because there wouldn't be another one from any other team. He takes it, and Mo comes out looking like a genius (or, as some of you would have it, MLS made the deal happen and Mo did nothing but collect a paycheque).

What you have to understand is how Mo works. He NEVER overpays for someone. Even if that player is someone he's always wanted, he will not make a move until the player is on sale. Is that a good thing? Well, that's up for debate. On one hand, it puts us into situations where we have a weak roster, and he doesn't do anything to help it because other managers sense we are weak, and so try to gouge us. On the other hand, he is slowly building the team he wants, while hording resources. 800k in allocation and 3 first round draft picks are nothing to hold your hose at. Personally, I think he's a great MLS manager, he just needs a full time scout for international talent.

[giambac]

It just seems to be weird. No one believes how little Houston got back for him. Check on bigsoccer and Ives - unbiased opinion is running 99% against the move from a Houston standpoint.

Don't you think a contender would have given up more than we did for him?

It's not really important that DeRo wanted to come here. Lots of guys want to be traded to their hometown. DeRo had no leverage, as there is no real free agency in MLS - DeRo would not have been able to just sign with TFC in 2010.

But from a league marketing point of view, this accomplishes something important. DeRo makes a difference in Toronto, just like McBride belongs in Chicago. (While I'm on this, is this some kind of quid-pro-quo for making the McBride thing happen?). Because of the single entity system, the league has an ability to intervene in player movement in ways you'd never see in other sports.

I suspect this was something the league office orchestrated, as they did with Ruiz in LA and McBride in Chicago. Just a hunch. If I'm right, Houston will get a player, or something else, for less than market value down the line.

Absolutely 100% guarantee they intervened. People who think otherwise are ignorant.

Listen take it for what it is. TFC got a very good player and that is the bottom line. The league did intervene just as they did with McBride. I have no problem with that.

I do find it funny on who people on this forum have double standers. When the MLS interfered with MCBride they weere crying foul. Now they try and ignore the issue.

When the refs made bad calls against TFC they cried foul and argued the world was against us. Then when we got favourable calls for us they didn't say anything.

We have to take it both ways. The league came in and helped us on this deal. Accept it.

[Roogsy]

Absolutely 100% guarantee they intervened. People who think otherwise are ignorant.

Listen take it for what it is. TFC got a very good player and that is the bottom line. The league did intervene just as they did with McBride. I have no problem with that.

I do find it funny on who people on this forum have double standers. When the MLS interfered with MCBride they weere crying foul. Now they try and ignore the issue.

When the refs made bad calls against TFC they cried foul and argued the world was against us. Then when we got favourable calls for us they didn't say anything.

We have to take it both ways. The league came in and helped us on this deal. Accept it.

LOL!

And your proof is?

[Jack]

Absolutely 100% guarantee they intervened. People who think otherwise are ignorant.

Listen take it for what it is. TFC got a very good player and that is the bottom line. The league did intervene just as they did with McBride. I have no problem with that.

I do find it funny on who people on this forum have double standers. When the MLS interfered with MCBride they weere crying foul. Now they try and ignore the issue.

When the refs made bad calls against TFC they cried foul and argued the world was against us. Then when we got favourable calls for us they didn't say anything.

We have to take it both ways. The league came in and helped us on this deal. Accept it.

Wow...Giambac with the inside scoop!

What's your source?

[GabrielHurl]

Giambac is Don Garber

[Beach_Red]

We have to take it both ways. The league came in and helped us on this deal. Accept it.

This would be the fastest and the quietest the league ever did anything. Why didn't this take a month like the McBride deal? Why were there no rumours, offers and counter offers? We all know what TFC was demanding in the McBride deal and Chicago wouldn't give up - Knapp or Rolfe, right? So, who was Houston asking for that we wouldn't give up? How has that been kept secret?

When did this league suddenly go from Get Smart to James Bond?

This wasn't such a terrible deal for Houston, it was a salary dump, it was about money. They're coming off back-to-back championships and an early exit from the playoffs. They've got to rebuild and they've got a couple years to do it because of those championships. Now they've got money to spend and cap space to do it with.

Chicago should still be pissed, but Houston did fine.

[Jack]

That, plus Houston has a young up-and-comer who will slot into DeRo's spot.

Giambac needs to put his tinfoil hat back on.

[Beach_Red]

That, plus Houston has a young up-and-comer who will slot into DeRo's spot.

Giambac needs to put his tinfoil hat back on.

Well, like a lot of people, he may simply look at TFC and not take into account much about the other teams in this league.

[ensco]

Well, I started this. For me, when Paul more or less said that the league directing DeRo to us is a wacky conspiracy theory, that settled it for me.

That said, I think there are dynamics here that we can't see. Maybe they'll come out some day. I don't care what Houston's objectives/situation is, and the deal dynamics were, the price was absurdly low for a 30 year old star, even if he had a sub-par year.

[ensco]

What you have to understand is how Mo works. He NEVER overpays for someone. Even if that player is someone he's always wanted, he will not make a move until the player is on sale. Is that a good thing? Well, that's up for debate. On one hand, it puts us into situations where we have a weak roster, and he doesn't do anything to help it because other managers sense we are weak, and so try to gouge us. On the other hand, he is slowly building the team he wants, while hording resources. 800k in allocation and 3 first round draft picks are nothing to hold your hose at. Personally, I think he's a great MLS manager, he just needs a full time scout for international talent.

This is an interesting theory about how Mo operates. Although I doubt that Friday was the first time he and Kinnear discussed DeRo to TFC.

btw, I love the idea of "holding your hose" at things!

[Fort York Redcoat]

I won't believe anything until someone Absolutely Guarantees this 110%.

[DOMIN8R]

Well, I started this. For me, when Paul more or less said that the league directing DeRo to us is a wacky conspiracy theory, that settled it for me.

That said, I think there are dynamics here that we can't see. Maybe they'll come out some day. I don't care what Houston's objectives/situation is, and the deal dynamics were, the price was absurdly low for a 30 year old star, even if he had a sub-par year.

+ 1 !

[Beach_Red]

This is an interesting theory about how Mo operates. Although I doubt that Friday was the first time he and Kinnear discussed DeRo to TFC.

btw, I love the idea of "holding your hose" at things!

There's a quote on here somewhere in which Mo says he asked about DeRo from the very beginning of TFC and kept asking for him until Houston finally wanted to deal. Houston is on the downhill slide, an early exit in the playoffs after Championships seasons, they were motivated and every buyer likes a motivated seller.

Remember in that video before the draft Mo said that the GM's, "talk to each other all the time." He knew what other GM's were willing to offer and so did Houston. And everybody involved knew that next year the price would be lower and the year after DeRo's contract would be up and Houston would get nothing.

I've started to see trading players and making deals a lot like scoring goals - sometimes they're beautiful plays that develop way down the field and involve six or eight guys making great passes and sometimes they're poached and come out of nothing.

This was a nice poach.

[Stryker]

Mo stated the day the franchise was awarded on stage and in front of the press that his biggest wish was to get DeRo in a TFC jersey.

[Lucky Strike]

Absolutely 100% guarantee they intervened. People who think otherwise are ignorant.

Listen take it for what it is. TFC got a very good player and that is the bottom line. The league did intervene just as they did with McBride. I have no problem with that.

I do find it funny on who people on this forum have double standers. When the MLS interfered with MCBride they weere crying foul. Now they try and ignore the issue.

When the refs made bad calls against TFC they cried foul and argued the world was against us. Then when we got favourable calls for us they didn't say anything.

We have to take it both ways. The league came in and helped us on this deal. Accept it.

Ha! I knew it! You have something negative to say on the subject of DeRo coming to TFC. Just took you a while to come up with something did it?

[GhostPK]

I know MLS rules are different (to be nice) from everyone else, but how is it that we acquired DeRo outside of a transfer window? Does the MLS run on a similar trade schedule as NHL/NFL/MLB or whatever where trades are always available from offseason till a certain date and continue again after the cup is won?

[CretanBull]

^Yes. They have their own times of roster freezes etc. now that the season is over, teams are free to make moves.

[Oldtimer]

Moves within MLS are not subject to transfer rules due to the single-entity. Technically, the player is not changing employers, as his employer remains MLS.

However, signing a player from overseas, USL, or the SuperDraft remains subject to FIFA transfer dates. Note that the applicable date is that of the receiving organization.

[Lucky Strike]

I know MLS rules are different (to be nice) from everyone else, but how is it that we acquired DeRo outside of a transfer window? Does the MLS run on a similar trade schedule as NHL/NFL/MLB or whatever where trades are always available from offseason till a certain date and continue again after the cup is won?

To add to what Oldtimer said, acquiring DeRo wasn't a transfer, it was a trade (i.e. outisde MLS vs. within MLS). There's the difference in language; transfer and trade are not synonymous. Hope it helps.

[giambac]

That, plus Houston has a young up-and-comer who will slot into DeRo's spot.

Giambac needs to put his tinfoil hat back on.

Jack I think your missing my point on this.

I 1agree 100% a that this a great move for TFC and we got a solid player.

All I'm saying is that if TFC had a star player who was American and said he wanted to play for a US team and a subsequent trade occured of which TFC got next to nothing in return then EVERYBODY on this forum would be CRYING FOUL.

You can not deny this. Fans/supporters are funny.
Everyone was complaining last year about conspiracy theories against TFC. The league was against us, The refs were against us, the commissioner was against us etc etc. This forum was flooded with cries of a conspiracy theory. How come it's been quiet lately?

That's my point.

[Jack]

Well, there are some people who tend to take things overboard, I agree.

But you said there was absolutely a conspiracy 100%, which I don't believe on either side of the equation. Now you're saying your point was that we would be crying foul? I think you don't know what your point is.

I'll give you my theory on what happened:

DeRo's been a huge part of that franchise for many years and helped the franchise win 4 (count 'em) FOUR MLS cups for which he scored the winning goal THREE times. He put in his time there and gave his all for the franchise.

Then, they were knocked out of the playoffs last year and the writing was on the wall. Time to retool, as good teams do. They have a young up-and-comer who would fill DeRo's shoes. So the management says to DeRo: "Hey DeRo, you've done a lot for us and we've decided to go with some youth and retool, wanna go home?"

DeRo says yes. (or maybe DeRo says "If you're going to retool, I want to go home", same result either way) They make it happen. This way, they get cap space, which is very valuable in this league. They get allocation, which as we all know is also very valuable and could allow us to have DeRo, Robbo and a few other good players and also a DP.

And on top of that, they get a (relatively for MLS) young defender who has the physical tools. He hasn't put them together at the MLS level yet, but he could with some coaching (or at least perhaps they believe that). Finally, they avoid a protracted negotiation which would detract from the whole situation and leave everyone with a sour taste in their mouth, including the man who brought so much glory to their club.

This way, Houston gets what they want (young player, cap room, allocation, amicable split with high-paid star, space on the roster for young replacement) and Toronto gets what they want (hometown hero and offensive force, almost no subtraction from roster, keep draft picks).

This is why I don't think the deal is as bad as everyone says it is and also why I don't think MLS needed to even bother stepping in or affecting it in any way.

[giambac]

Well, there are some people who tend to take things overboard, I agree.

But you said there was absolutely a conspiracy 100%, which I don't believe on either side of the equation. Now you're saying your point was that we would be crying foul? I think you don't know what your point is.

I'll give you my theory on what happened:

DeRo's been a huge part of that franchise for many years and helped the franchise win 4 (count 'em) FOUR MLS cups for which he scored the winning goal THREE times. He put in his time there and gave his all for the franchise.

Then, they were knocked out of the playoffs last year and the writing was on the wall. Time to retool, as good teams do. They have a young up-and-comer who would fill DeRo's shoes. So the management says to DeRo: "Hey DeRo, you've done a lot for us and we've decided to go with some youth and retool, wanna go home?"

DeRo says yes. (or maybe DeRo says "If you're going to retool, I want to go home", same result either way) They make it happen. This way, they get cap space, which is very valuable in this league. They get allocation, which as we all know is also very valuable and could allow us to have DeRo, Robbo and a few other good players and also a DP.

And on top of that, they get a (relatively for MLS) young defender who has the physical tools. He hasn't put them together at the MLS level yet, but he could with some coaching (or at least perhaps they believe that). Finally, they avoid a protracted negotiation which would detract from the whole situation and leave everyone with a sour taste in their mouth, including the man who brought so much glory to their club.

This way, Houston gets what they want (young player, cap room, allocation, amicable split with high-paid star, space on the roster for young replacement) and Toronto gets what they want (hometown hero and offensive force, almost no subtraction from roster, keep draft picks).

This is why I don't think the deal is as bad as everyone says it is and also why I don't think MLS needed to even bother stepping in or affecting it in any way.

I see your point but lets's be realistic here. The MLS is a single entity league and at the end of the day the league and the commish will do whatever is best for the league in the long run. Putting a star Canadian player in Toronto (his hometown ) is good for TFC and therefore good for the whole league. Putting McBride in Chicago is good for the Chicago Franchise and good for the league as a whole. This league unlike any other professional sports league is run differntly and controlled differently. The Number one goal orobjective of this league is to survive and to be marketable. Puting star players in their home town helps meet that objective.

[Jack]

I see your point but lets's be realistic here. The MLS is a single entity league and at the end of the day the league and the commish will do whatever is best for the league in the long run. Putting a star Canadian player in Toronto (his hometown ) is good for TFC and therefore good for the whole league. Putting McBride in Chicago is good for the Chicago Franchise and good for the league as a whole. This league unlike any other professional sports league is run differntly and controlled differently. The Number one goal orobjective of this league is to survive and to be marketable. Puting star players in their home town helps meet that objective.

I agree with you there, but the "single-entity" thing only goes so far. The teams now mainly all have separate owners (I think they all do, or does AEG still have two?)

There's still the sense of a competitiveness there. I think my scenario is a lot more realistic at this point than the league dictating to clubs where the players should go. You'll recall that our situation with McBride got so far as a public battle with statements from Chicago, which might lead the league to step in to mediate a deal. But I don't think the league dictates what transactions happen between teams. Especially in this case where the deal was one that made great sense for both parties based on the reasons I gave.

[Phil]

I see your point but lets's be realistic here. The MLS is a single entity league and at the end of the day the league and the commish will do whatever is best for the league in the long run. Putting a star Canadian player in Toronto (his hometown ) is good for TFC and therefore good for the whole league. Putting McBride in Chicago is good for the Chicago Franchise and good for the league as a whole. This league unlike any other professional sports league is run differntly and controlled differently. The Number one goal orobjective of this league is to survive and to be marketable. Puting star players in their home town helps meet that objective.


I see your point but I don't think Toronto FC needed Dero to sell more shirts or put more fans in the seats. At best it may attract others to the sport but even then it doesn't appear that its made too much of a media impact.

[ensco]

Jack, what Houston got by freeing up cap space is irrelevant. The question is strictly one of trade value.

For a 36 year McBride, TFC got a first rounder, an allocation, and Barrett (who was basically a throw in at the time). All Houston got was a similar throw-in type player (James) and the allocation. A first rounder, especially in a good draft, would be worth more than James (who didn't show that much, and remember, was taken in essentially the same spot as Phelan and Boyens, who had zero trade value).

Someone made a legitimate point that we had more leverage (because we could afford to piss McBride off, since he wasn't in our locker room), but still, McBride was 36. DeRo at 30 (in his prime) should have been worth at least as much as, or more than, McBride.

[giambac]

I see your point but I don't think Toronto FC needed Dero to sell more shirts or put more fans in the seats. At best it may attract others to the sport but even then it doesn't appear that its made too much of a media impact.

I think De Ro may be the final push which convinces both TFC and the city officials to expand BMO field. I know there is already 10-13k on the waiting list, but acquiring DeRo will help maintain the strong support over the years and will definelty transalate into new sales with his number.

When TFC came out with the new jersey I didn't think there would be much sales given that the old jerseys are only 2 years old. However, when you combine a new jersey with a new star player I'm 100% convinced it will translate into big meerchandise sales with his jersey # and could support a stadium capacity of 30k which the league would love.

[Jack]

Jack, what Houston got bey freeing up cap space is irrelevant. The question is strictly one of trade value.

For a 36 year McBride, we got a first rounder, an allocation, and Barrett (who was basically a throw in). All Houston got was a similar throw-in type player (James) and the allocation. A first rounder, especially in a good draft, would be worth more than James (who didn't show that much, and remember, was taken in the same spot as Phelan and Boyens, who had zero value).

Someone made a legitimate point that we had more leverage (because we could afford to piss McBride off, since he wasn't in our locker room), but still, he was 36. DeRo at 30 (in his prime) should have been worth at least as much as, or more than, McBride.

I disagree.

In our league, cap space is huge. Look at the NBA. Trades and player moves are made all the time with cap space in mind. Or expiring contracts. That is a huge consideration, especially for a club trying to revamp their roster.

Anyway, I'm not convinced that MLS dictates trades in this league. If someone can unequivocally prove otherwise, I'll change my mind, but that hasn't happened yet.

DeRo had a sub-par year by his standards last year. I think there were a lot of factors behind this trade.

I also honestly think that perhaps people believe more in JJ than we do. Read the Houston thread on Big Soccer and check out the reaction of the Dynamo supporters.

[Yohan]

I see your point but I don't think Toronto FC needed Dero to sell more shirts or put more fans in the seats. At best it may attract others to the sport but even then it doesn't appear that its made too much of a media impact.
Exactly.

What does MLS (and the owners/commish/head office, etc) as a whole gain with forcing DeRo to Toronto?

[Beach_Red]

In our league, cap space is huge. Look at the NBA. Trades and player moves are made all the time with cap space in mind. Or expiring contracts. That is a huge consideration, especially for a club trying to revamp their roster.

Yes, this is so true. Cap space is huge. Look at TFC last year, everytime a player was signed someone had to be moved to make room. Roster limitations are a big deal in this league - in fact, managing that stuff is more important in a manager than spotting talent in this league.

I think it's funny that we have to keep pointing out that Houston didn't do that badly in this trade. We'll have to wait and see what they do with the cap space and allocation money, maybe they have a DP ready to come in the January window. Who knows, this could end up looking like a great move for Houston.

Now, I think it's possible MLS would have intervened if this trade had dragged on and the teams weren't able to do it on their own and if TFC had really needed the trade, but when they did intervene it would have been clumsy and quite public. The McBride deal had a time limit didn't it, he had tp be signed by a certain date and as it approached there was talk of MLS forcing a deal?

In this case there was no end date? So why now? Why not last year? Why not next year?

[CretanBull]

Someone made a legitimate point that we had more leverage (because we could afford to piss McBride off, since he wasn't in our locker room), but still, McBride was 36. DeRo at 30 (in his prime) should have been worth at least as much as, or more than, McBride.

McBride was a stranger to us, all he was in our eyes was an asset. Our franchise was very thin, when we dealt that asset we needed to get full value for it. Chicago were a team within our division and we were going to hand them a Premiership calibre striker.

Houston and De Ro have a long standing relationship and mutual respect. If he said "I've loved my time in his organization, but it's time for me to head home" they would have said "We thank you for your commitment to the club over the years, we'll see what we can do to accomodate you". They had to move him here, but we had little of value to offer them. They ended up working out a deal that cleared the cap space they need to sign a DP - something that they couldn't do before. They could have demanded one of our 1st round picks, but maybe they have more faith in James being more MLS ready than a NCAA player. They want to 're-tool' not 're-build'.

Did Houston get the best possible return for De Ro? No. But that's irrelevant. What matters is that they got the best possible deal under the circumstances and getting a 1st rounder from last season and a DP for De Ro isn't the worst deal a team could make.

If trading Carl Robinson to Colorado would allow us to sign a DP, and our goal is to sign a DP, does it really matter if DC would give us what some fans consider as 'more' for Robinson?

[Jack]

Very good point, CretanBull.

[giambac]

McBride was a stranger to us, all he was in our eyes was an asset. Our franchise was very thin, when we dealt that asset we needed to get full value for it. Chicago were a team within our division and we were going to hand them a Premiership calibre striker.

Houston and De Ro have a long standing relationship and mutual respect. If he said "I've loved my time in his organization, but it's time for me to head home" they would have said "We thank you for your commitment to the club over the years, we'll see what we can do to accomodate you". They had to move him here, but we had little of value to offer them. They ended up working out a deal that cleared the cap space they need to sign a DP - something that they couldn't do before. They could have demanded one of our 1st round picks, but maybe they have more faith in James being more MLS ready than a NCAA player. They want to 're-tool' not 're-build'.

Did Houston get the best possible return for De Ro? No. But that's irrelevant. What matters is that they got the best possible deal under the circumstances and getting a 1st rounder from last season and a DP for De Ro isn't the worst deal a team could make.

If trading Carl Robinson to Colorado would allow us to sign a DP, and our goal is to sign a DP, does it really matter if DC would give us what some fans consider as 'more' for Robinson?

Almost sounds like the Leafs and Sundin situation last year.
That worked out welll for us!!!!!

[Jack]

Almost sounds like the Leafs and Sundin situation last year.
That worked out welll for us!!!!!
Some would say it did. The Leafs got the fresh start they needed.

I think you're grasping at straws here, giambac.

[CretanBull]

Almost sounds like the Leafs and Sundin situation last year.
That worked out welll for us!!!!!

How is Houston trading De Ro similar to the Leafs not trading Sundin? :noidea:

[CretanBull]

Some people are making it sound as if Dom Kinnear doesn't know what he's doing, as if those Championships just landed in his lap.

[Yohan]

Let's also keep in mind that in MLS, good players get moved for like what seems very little.

Just with Toronto, we acquired Marshall, an MLS all star for what, not much. Jeff Cunningham, although he did basically fuck all for us, had nearly 100 goals to his credit and he came for cheap. O'Brien was traded for first round and some allocation, and he certainly was worth more than that.

[ensco]

Guys, Houston clears the cap space just by releasing DeRo. They don't need a trade partner to do that. So that part of the equation has no relationship to what he is worth in trade.

The "they took care of DeRo in return for his years of loyal service" point? Oh, you mean the way Brett Favre or Eric Lindros or Joe Montana or Wayne Gretzky got to pick their teams? (I wish the world worked that way, but it doesn't. Teams maximize value - they have to.)

By the way, I'm off the "MLS intervened" point (Paul quashed it). I just think the values don't add up, and I'm trying to understand why.

[CretanBull]

^ releasing De Ro doesn't land them James or the allocation money that they need (De Ro's clearing salary alone doesn't land them a DP), nor does it thank De Ro for his service to their club. Also, he had 2 years remaining on his contract, so they couldn't release him (buy him out) without taking a cap-hit.

[ensco]

^ releasing De Ro doesn't land them James or the allocation money that they need (De Ro's clearing salary alone doesn't land them a DP), nor does it thank De Ro for his service to their club.

ahh we disagree there... the allocation is worth something, but James isn't. I'm repeating myself, but if we'd had a "what's JJ worth in trade" poll 1 week ago, the winning answer would have been "a bag of balls"

as for thanking him for years of service, see me point above

[CretanBull]

The "they took care of DeRo in return for his years of loyal service" point? Oh, you mean the way Brett Favre or Eric Lindros or Joe Montana or Wayne Gretzky got to pick their teams? (I wish the world worked that way, but it doesn't. Teams maximize value - they have to.)

Allowing them to sign a DP maximizes their value in a way that no other deal could...they'll be a better team without him, because they'll replace him with a $1 million + player.

[CretanBull]

I'm not, and never have been, down on JJ. Having a rookie in our backline wasn't the best for us, but in Houston he'll be surrounded by a more established backline...there aren't any Bobby Boswell or Wade Barretts in Toronto.

[CretanBull]

De Ro for James and allocation money isn't a good deal if it's view like that, but in the context of what Houston want to do, De Ro for James and a DP is an excellent deal - there's not a team in the league that wouldn't make that kind of move.

[nascarguy]

Seems like a pretty low price to get him. I remember rumours were rampant that he was leaving MLS in the summer for Europe, but maybe this will keep him here. Now if Mo can somehow con another team into taking Ruiz and maybe find another defender and striker

[nascarguy]

I'm not, and never have been, down on JJ. Having a rookie in our backline wasn't the best for us, but in Houston he'll be surrounded by a more established backline...there aren't any Bobby Boswell or Wade Barretts in Toronto.
last year at the mls cup in dc me & NG had some drinks with mo and some poeple from the FO and i told him we sould pick up Bobby Boswell and he said no that Bobby Boswell is not a good player ( he sucks). I talked to Bobby Boswell and told him he sould come to play for tfc and he said that he love to coming toronto but not to live there he said that he wants to stay in dc.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Seems like a pretty low price to get him. I remember rumours were rampant that he was leaving MLS in the summer for Europe, but maybe this will keep him here. Now if Mo can somehow con another team into taking Ruiz and maybe find another defender and striker


DeRo had chances in the past (Man City, Blackburn) and decided to stay (hes far too old at this point to play at the level he would want to play at which is most likely toplevel). He will be staying as hes got 2 or so years left in his contract. Wouldnt worry about Ruiz either, dudes contract is up, hes underperformed the last 2 seasons and isnt worth the money hes making, also noone wants that headcase, hes headed back south.

[ensco]

This is who Houston are supposedly now targeting to replace DeRo. Hard to believe that a 23 year old of real quality would leave Mexico for the MLS.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/soc/6170593.html

[J .]

Great piece of business for both teams.

JJ was good some games, not good for others. Rookie and NA players develop later in life than in other league. JJ could be a starter, but he was put in a situation with an average keeper, no commander of the back line in Marshall or Velez etc.

Sure DeRo is an all-star, but Houston will have a replacement, a backup and potential starter and money to spend.

This aint EPL fellas, JJ can play in MLS.