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Stryker
11-28-2008, 11:11 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_Stadium

"The Philadelphia MLS team's ownership group, Keystone Sports & Entertainment LLC, designed a specific entrance of Chester Stadium for the Sons of Ben fan club in recognition of their loyalty. The entrance will lead into the SoB's 2,000-seat section."

Lets not even get into the 115 million dollar construction budget or the grass playing surface.

As for MLSE.. well its kind of like giving your heart to a girl and having her father spit in your face. :nonod:

Jay P
11-28-2008, 11:15 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_Stadium

"The Philadelphia MLS team's ownership group, Keystone Sports & Entertainment LLC, designed a specific entrance of Chester Stadium for the Sons of Ben fan club in recognition of their loyalty. The entrance will lead into the SoB's 2,000-seat section."

Lets not even get into the 115 million dollar construction budget or the grass playing surface.

As for MLSE.. well its kind of like giving your heart to a girl and having her father spit in your face. :nonod:


SOB was around before Philly got an MLS team, so its not suprising to see the ownership group catering the stadium to the supporter group, while TFC had the stadium/team before the supporters came

This being said... MLSE can do more for supporters still....

gmacpheetfc
11-28-2008, 11:15 AM
wow....

tfc
11-28-2008, 11:16 AM
oh god, stop whining

gmacpheetfc
11-28-2008, 11:18 AM
although looks like the design is a little different now?

http://www.mlsphilly2010.com/

Stryker
11-28-2008, 11:26 AM
oh god, stop whining

Who's whining? I'm just pointing out facts.
Don't get me wrong the pub crawls are a nice touch but its the players themselves who are investing something to give back to the fans. Thier time.
What has ownership given to improve fan relations/comfort? Aside from a meager invest in Bitchy and special "attention" from security.

Damien
11-28-2008, 11:27 AM
It's probably to make up for the supporters having to live in the philadelphia area (aka the armpit of america)

nascarguy
11-28-2008, 11:30 AM
SOB was around before Philly got an MLS team, so its not suprising to see the ownership group catering the stadium to the supporter group, while TFC had the stadium/team before the supporters came

This being said... MLSE can do more for supporters still....
there was tfc supporter around before but I think mlse did not know just how much supporter they had before the staduim was made and mlse does not own the place the city does

nascarguy
11-28-2008, 11:31 AM
It's probably to make up for the supporters having to live in the philadelphia area (aka the armpit of america)no that is columbus

nascarguy
11-28-2008, 11:33 AM
although looks like the design is a little different now?

http://www.mlsphilly2010.com/
the plans can still change again they do not start to in till dec the 1st

justin
11-28-2008, 11:34 AM
see sig

flatpicker
11-28-2008, 11:46 AM
stop feeding my jealousy!

Stryker
11-28-2008, 11:53 AM
*sigh*
Never will I understand why the majority of people are so gladly willing to accept the short end of the stick in this country.
Wither its big business or government.
Is it fear of change or just plain laziness?

rocker
11-28-2008, 12:19 PM
*sigh*
Never will I understand why the majority of people are so gladly willing to accept the short end of the stick in this country.
Wither its big business or government.
Is it fear of change or just plain laziness?

I'm always amazed at the righteous sense of entitlement that some TFC fans have. I'm always amazed at how TFC fans look around the league like a spoiled child demanding to have everything everyone else has just because they've supported the team for a whole 2 years.

Have some perspective please.

As people have mentioned, the historical situation of TFC's birth is NOTHING like the situation in Philly.
If you had built a 1000 member supporters group BEFORE TFC even got a team, and then you were able to influence the design of BMO field while the architects were designing it, then maybe you could have had your wish. That's the situation Philly fans are in. It has nothing to with their ownership being better than MLSE. It's different circumstances completely.

Philly's stadium is not being funded by the government. And they have a group pressuring them during the design phase for this stuff. TFC didn't have the opportunity to do this.

Parkdale
11-28-2008, 12:20 PM
I'm always amazed at the righteous sense of entitlement that some TFC fans have. I'm always amazed at how TFC fans look around the league like a spoiled child demanding to have everything everyone else has just because they've supported the team for a whole 2 years.

we get both sides of the coin. there's very few centrists on that topic.

rocker
11-28-2008, 12:23 PM
we get both sides of the coin. there's very few centrists on that topic.

that's why I said "some TFC fans".

Parkdale
11-28-2008, 12:24 PM
yep. and they're everywhere!

Steve
11-28-2008, 12:37 PM
I'm always amazed at the righteous sense of entitlement that some TFC fans have. I'm always amazed at how TFC fans look around the league like a spoiled child demanding to have everything everyone else has just because they've supported the team for a whole 2 years.


Completely agreed, but it isn't limited to things TFC related. People in general seem to think they're entitled to everything they want just because someone else has it. It's really quite shocking.

Stryker
11-28-2008, 12:42 PM
Philly's stadium is not being funded by the government.

Oh? You didn't take the time to read the link in my original post did you?

"The project has received a commitment of $30 million from Delaware County and $47 million from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania."

It would seem MLSE has brokered a deal which they gave up much of their own input into design of BMO field in exchange for them not having to dig to far into their own pockets. Shrew business yes, but in hindsight its handcuffed them from making changes which could benifit both the team and the fans.
More importantly... city ownership has given them a great excuse to do nothing. An excuse which many of you seem quite willing to accept.

Toronto Ruffrider
11-28-2008, 12:45 PM
Philly's supporters may have it great, but I'm not about to be jealous of them. We've heard horror stories of how supporters have been treated by other MLS teams - Colorado ring a bell? The league as a whole has not been very receptive to supporters' groups. TFC management has done a much better job of embracing us.

CretanBull
11-28-2008, 12:45 PM
I come for the off-season discussion. I stay for all the bitching.

Parkdale
11-28-2008, 12:49 PM
I come for the off-season discussion. I stay for all the bitching.


oh yeah...? well as much as I agree with you, your opinions are totally wrong.

:rolleyes:;):cool:

oh off-season...

Beach_Red
11-28-2008, 01:06 PM
*sigh*
Never will I understand why the majority of people are so gladly willing to accept the short end of the stick in this country.
Wither its big business or government.
Is it fear of change or just plain laziness?

We take a cautious approach... it's why all our banks haven't gone bankrupt.

Technorgasm
11-28-2008, 01:19 PM
SOBs - just another enemy / Victim

TORONTO TILL I DIE

Shakes McQueen
11-28-2008, 01:47 PM
Oh? You didn't take the time to read the link in my original post did you?

"The project has received a commitment of $30 million from Delaware County and $47 million from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania."

It would seem MLSE has brokered a deal which they gave up much of their own input into design of BMO field in exchange for them not having to dig to far into their own pockets. Shrew business yes, but in hindsight its handcuffed them from making changes which could benifit both the team and the fans.
More importantly... city ownership has given them a great excuse to do nothing. An excuse which many of you seem quite willing to accept.

Giving the City the ownership stake in BMO, was the reason why they were able to build on prime, expensive, downtown, government-owned land - not in the middle of nowhere.

While our stadium might not be the best in the league, I wouldn't trade it for something better, if it meant losing the location. Teams like Philly, and New York, are forced to build their stadiums outside city limits. We can access ours from a streetcar.

I'm with rocker on this one. Many TFC fans spend way too much time looking around the league, and seeing what some of the new clubs are getting - then demanding it here. The fact that we are one of the more vibrant fanbases in the league, does not entitle us to anything.

MLSE were right to be cautious in their initial investment in TFC. While they might regret it a bit, now that the bricks have been laid - I have no doubt we will be seeing upgrades to BMO sooner than later.

- Scott

Toronto_Bhoy
11-28-2008, 01:57 PM
MLSE didn't build the stadium…

Why do people continue crapping on them for not having grass, or a roof or a "grand" entrance for the supporters? They didn't build it!

Parkdale
11-28-2008, 02:10 PM
MLSE didn't build the stadium…

Why do people continue crapping on them for not having grass, or a roof or a "grand" entrance for the supporters? They didn't build it!

because they are the only people who could pressure the city to make that happen. No sunday beer league guys are going to be petitioning the city for improvements. The people playing 'ultimate frisbee' aren't a major corporation.

Roogsy
11-28-2008, 02:15 PM
Thankfully I can honestly say that the OP is a user of this board and does not reflect the sentiments of the Red Patch Boys and its members. Let's make that clear.

Otherwise, he can have any opinion he wants. I personally think he's off-base, but then again that is my opinion isn't it? Some people are never happy I suppose. They always covet what others have and are never happy with what they have.

Parkdale
11-28-2008, 02:17 PM
you know what would make BMO perfect?

Monkey Waiters or Frog Butlers

http://www.backyardstuff.com/Whimsical/Frog%20Butler%206h.jpg

AL-MO
11-28-2008, 02:34 PM
I think we are treated pretty well when you compare it to other North American Sports teams. TFC actually meets with the Supporter groups periodically, which is something that would NEVER happen with most of the other teams on the continent. Can you imagine fans meeting with the Leafs or an NFL team? There may be cases where this has happened, but I would think its few and far between. Could there be some improvement? Sure but there is always room for that.

Stryker
11-28-2008, 02:36 PM
Thankfully I can honestly say that the OP is a user of this board and does not reflect the sentiments of the Red Patch Boys. Let's make that clear.

Otherwise, he can have any opinion he wants. I personally think he's off-base, but then again that is my opinion isn't it? Some people are never happy I suppose. They always covet what others have and are never happy with what they have.

ROFLMAO!!!!!
Oh well... I tried.
I guess some people just aren't aware that more often than not it's the squeeky wheel that gets the grease and that if nobody voices an opinion MSLE will NEVER invest anything into the facilities. Why should they? Nobodys willing to say anything for fear of being dubbed a whiner.

Oh and by the way. Seeing as how I'm in Alberta and have never attended a TFC game and likely won't be anytime soon... I had no intention of trying to cushion my own ass. I was merely trying to point out that the best fans in the MLS deserve to be treated as such. That would be YOU guys... people I considered to be my brothern in a common love of this team.
I guess that sentimentality's not likely to be returned my way though.

Roogsy
11-28-2008, 02:42 PM
We are all fellow TFC fans...the problem is that there will always be differences in the way we do things or how we view things.

When something is important enough for us...we make it known to the club. And more often than not, we get some sort of deal. Despite some security issues (that isn't the work of the club but rather the security company) overall fans have been given a lot of leeway.

So yeah...we don't have our own entrance. I would have to say that is very low on my list of priorities or whether I am happy with the way the club treats supporters.

Is there things to improve? Sure...but at least there is communication and a process. TFC management (and the stadium) often make time to hear the concerns expressed by RPB leadership on behalf of the supporters. Why then complain?

Yeah...the squeaky wheel gets the grease. But there comes a point where you can't complain about silly things or they just replace the wheel altogether.

I don't get the point of your post. Are you saying TFC fans are being mistreated or that we need to be treated better by getting an entrance of our own? Because frankly I don't see what the point of a separate entrance does except create a heirarchy among the fanbase.

Parkdale
11-28-2008, 02:48 PM
Because frankly I don't see what the point of a separate entrance does except create a heirarchy among the fanbase.

the prawns have their own entrance.

I think every entrance should be a special one. You're walking into our house, so that's reason enough to consider it special.

Cambridge_Red
11-28-2008, 02:53 PM
Theres more than one SG in the south end... this would only cause problems.

Stryker
11-28-2008, 02:59 PM
I don't get the point of your post. Are you saying TFC fans are being mistreated or that we need to be treated better by getting an entrance of our own? Because frankly I don't see what the point of a separate entrance does except create a heirarchy among the fanbase.

Do you honestly think this is about a privite entrance? It's about being treated as well as YOU deserve to be.
My point was that if SOB can get a privite entrance surely MLSE could show you alittle more gratitude by things like... oh I don't know.. resonable consession prices? How about not raising season renewel ticket prices? Or even.. god... dare to dream? Grass or a roof?

Anyway Im out. Thread turned againest me and the people I thought I was trying to help are alittle to hostile for my liking and Im gonna say something I might reget.

Pookie
11-28-2008, 03:00 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_Stadium

"The Philadelphia MLS team's ownership group, Keystone Sports & Entertainment LLC, designed a specific entrance of Chester Stadium for the Sons of Ben fan club in recognition of their loyalty. The entrance will lead into the SoB's 2,000-seat section."




Couple of things.
This is wikipedia, not exactly your 1st choice for factual information.
Here's the disclaimer at the top of the article: "It may contain information of a speculative nature and the content may change dramatically as the construction and/or completion of the stadium approaches."
So, it appears that this thread contains an argument about a speculative component of a stadium that has yet to be built as entered by someone on Wikipedia.

Do I have that right?

Just for shitebulls and giggles, let me add to this debate.

Technically, supporters do have a gate that leads to their section. I believe it is to the left of Gate 3 off Princess Blvd. Pass 'em your ticket and if you walk straight you are in the supporters section. It may or may not have a red carpet leading directly to your seat... I'll check wikipedia and let you know.

Roogsy
11-28-2008, 03:11 PM
Do you honestly think this is about a privite entrance? It's about being treated as well as YOU deserve to be.
My point was that if SOB can get a privite entrance surely MLSE could show you alittle more gratitude by things like... oh I don't know.. resonable consession prices? How about not raising season renewel ticket prices? Or even.. god... dare to dream? Grass or a roof?


I see...so you are looking for a better deal for ALL the fans not just the supporters group? That doesn't exactly fall in line with what the supposed benefit the SOBs are getting which only benefits them and not all fans in general. That's apples and oranges.

TFC would argue they treat fans as good as anyone, including Philly who haven't actually done anything for their fans YET since they are still in the process of putting things together. It doesn't exactly make the case for your point to refer to something that hasn't happened and who knows if it will. How about making a reference to an actual action on the part of a team for it's fans and then comparing it to what TFC does now? That would be more logical.

Afra
11-28-2008, 03:24 PM
Special entrances, roof, free swag, cheaper concessions. . . .

Keep em all - just give us a team that makes the playoffs. (I suppose that could go for any MLSE or Toronto pro sports team - I hope the Rock can do something this year)

mighty_torontofc_2008
11-28-2008, 03:30 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_Stadium

"The Philadelphia MLS team's ownership group, Keystone Sports & Entertainment LLC, designed a specific entrance of Chester Stadium for the Sons of Ben fan club in recognition of their loyalty. The entrance will lead into the SoB's 2,000-seat section."

Lets not even get into the 115 million dollar construction budget or the grass playing surface.

As for MLSE.. well its kind of like giving your heart to a girl and having her father spit in your face. :nonod:


christ sake more moaning?? 5 years ago we had NO football in Toronto, we had No Stadium, now we have a team, a great stadium (MLS wise)
we have the best manager Toronto football has had in a while. Lets not worry about the neighbours, and worry about the 09 draft and season.

Shakes McQueen
11-28-2008, 03:31 PM
MLSE could show you alittle more gratitude by things like... oh I don't know.. resonable consession prices? How about not raising season renewel ticket prices?

These are just facts of life for sports. Ticket prices will always go up, as long as the demand is there (and it is). Same with concessions - they are in-line with prices around the league, and in other sports.

Would it be nice to get breaks on these things? Of course. But it isn't going to happen.


Or even.. god... dare to dream? Grass or a roof?

A roof is a MASSIVE financial investment, that requires MLSE to plow through tons of red tape, as well as get approval for it. Not practical yet.

Grass is more doable, and we know that the Mayor, the club, and possibly even MLSE are pushing for it. Again though, with the red tape, the approval, etc.


Anyway Im out. Thread turned againest me and the people I thought I was trying to help are alittle to hostile for my liking and Im gonna say something I might reget.

No one is hostile about this. We just disagree with your analogy that it's like being "spit on". MLSE did us a great service in taking the financial risk to bring us our own football club, and while the stadium facilities might not be "world-class" (fuck I hate that phrase), we are still in our infancy.

- Scott

AL-MO
11-28-2008, 03:47 PM
Theres more than one SG in the south end... this would only cause problems.

I don't think he is referring to one particular SG. (at least with TFC)

jloome
11-28-2008, 04:21 PM
Thankfully I can honestly say that the OP is a user of this board and does not reflect the sentiments of the Red Patch Boys and its members. Let's make that clear.

Otherwise, he can have any opinion he wants. I personally think he's off-base, but then again that is my opinion isn't it? Some people are never happy I suppose. They always covet what others have and are never happy with what they have.

But by the same token, simply boiling alike circumstances down to "life's unfair" is not a defense for it actually being unfair. Sometimes, people SHOULD be unhappy and they SHOULD expect what other people are getting; that discontent breeds change, hopefully to their benefit.

For one, if people are paying the same (or more) money for the same product around MLS -- a single-entity company, it should be noted -- they should expect similar treatment. That's not an "unfair" expectation, it's a basic application of fairness.

The very fact that fairness is so casually tossed aside in North America now whenever the free market is involved goes a long way to explaining why people have so little faith in the people representing them, who generally kotow to whoever has the biggest buck. The free market, Freidman be damned, makes a lot of very stupid, shortsighted decisions.

Roogsy
11-28-2008, 04:25 PM
For one, if people are paying the same (or more) money for the same product around MLS -- a single-entity company, it should be noted -- they should expect similar treatment. That's not an "unfair" expectation, it's a basic application of fairness.



I agree with you...hence the reason we should be VERY happy in Toronto that we are not treated by MLS teams like the other cities if we really want equality. So the SOBs "may" get an entrance and all of sudden we are knocking down MLSE's doors?

Travel with us to Giants stadium...or Crew stadium...or Toyota Park to see how supporters get treated in this league.

Miko
11-28-2008, 04:34 PM
Travel with us to Giants stadium...or Crew stadium...or Toyota Park to see how supporters get treated in this league.

Agree completely. Giants Stadiums was a joke (segregating us in the corner of the upper deck, 15 security guards for 40 fans, no concessions, not letting TFC fans from lower levels sit with us). Easily the worst fan experience I've had in 30 odd years of attending sporting events.

As for the SOB's separate entrance, it seems a little more like they're segregating them from the rest of supporters than giving them something special.

Beach_Red
11-28-2008, 04:42 PM
The free market, Freidman be damned, makes a lot of very stupid, shortsighted decisions.

Now you're just being funny.

No one ever believed the free market was a good idea, some just saw how it could be easily manipulated for their own benefit.

But you know all this, you're just trying to bait people ;).

Redcoe15
11-28-2008, 05:14 PM
I'm not getting bent out of shape over this. The Sons Of Ben worked very hard to get this thing to where it is. They deserve every props for helping to bring a team to Philadelphia. A lot of other supporters groups have been formed to try and land an MLS team to their cities. Let's just applaud them for the time being until 2010 when Philadelphia finally gets their team on the pitch and then we can hate their guts.
;) :D

stretchthetruth
11-28-2008, 05:14 PM
Now you're just being funny.

No one ever believed the free market was a good idea, some just saw how it could be easily manipulated for their own benefit.

But you know all this, you're just trying to bait people ;).

ZING!

jloome
11-28-2008, 05:19 PM
Now you're just being funny.

No one ever believed the free market was a good idea, some just saw how it could be easily manipulated for their own benefit.

But you know all this, you're just trying to bait people ;).

Beach, you're a libertarian. YOU know this. But I live in Alberta, where the majority of the population is taught from birth that every man IS an Island, that might makes right, that he who claws his way to the top deserves to be there, that every man is truly created equally.

These things are nonsensical in many respects, but people here REALLY believe it. And I'd hasten to say that most of our federal politicians do, as well.

In fact, as the guy who answers letters from the public to the paper, I can tell you there are huge swaths of Canadians who think free market = good, government = bad. The idea that both can be equally terrible and terribly beneficial is lost on many, many people.

Beach_Red
11-28-2008, 05:50 PM
Beach, you're a libertarian. YOU know this. But I live in Alberta, where the majority of the population is taught from birth that every man IS an Island, that might makes right, that he who claws his way to the top deserves to be there, that every man is truly created equally.

These things are nonsensical in many respects, but people here REALLY believe it. And I'd hasten to say that most of our federal politicians do, as well.

In fact, as the guy who answers letters from the public to the paper, I can tell you there are huge swaths of Canadians who think free market = good, government = bad. The idea that both can be equally terrible and terribly beneficial is lost on many, many people.

I hear you. When it comes to government it's kind of like picking players for TFC - we don't care where they're from, as long as they're good. We shouldn't care what "size" the government is, just that it be the best possible.

I always see regulations on the free market as the refs and we all know what happens to the game if the refs are crappy. But if the refs are really, really good, then the best team really does win.

It ocurred to me the other day that Libertarians are the easiest people in the world to defeat - all you need is one buddy and you already outnumber each "rugged individual."

Answering those letters, though, that'll twist your view of reality, won't it?

Shakes McQueen
11-28-2008, 06:43 PM
Beach, you're a libertarian. YOU know this. But I live in Alberta, where the majority of the population is taught from birth that every man IS an Island, that might makes right, that he who claws his way to the top deserves to be there, that every man is truly created equally.

These things are nonsensical in many respects, but people here REALLY believe it. And I'd hasten to say that most of our federal politicians do, as well.

In fact, as the guy who answers letters from the public to the paper, I can tell you there are huge swaths of Canadians who think free market = good, government = bad. The idea that both can be equally terrible and terribly beneficial is lost on many, many people.

One of the weirdest perversions of "conservatism" in the last 25 years or so, has been that idea of "government = bad". As though the government is some monolithic entity crushing down from above us.

The reality, of course, is that government is SUPPOSED to be an expression of society's will - an extension of society itself. Big government" is not necessarily a bad thing, as long as it is carrying out the will of it's people.

This idea that people generally want "small government", is folly. Even among folks who self-identify as "conservative", once you start asking them questions about dismantling the Canada Pension Plan, or privatizing health care, you find out just how conservative, or libertarian, they AREN'T.

Even business doesn't want "free market" , small government capitalism. What they want, can only be described as "socialism for big business, capitalism for everyone else". A quick glance at all of the bailout nonsense in the U.S. right now, can easily confirm this.

Everyone wants the government out of their lives, and everyone wants lower taxes, until something goes wrong, or you actually need services. Then they want the government's help (and rightfully so).

Anyway, this is totally off topic now.

- Scott

Jack
11-28-2008, 07:11 PM
Wow...MLSE treats us badly has morphed into a political discussion.