Can Toronto really support a 30k stadium?

[Pookie]

So, we are going into our 3rd season and looks as though expansion in Toronto has been a success. Talk around the town and even amongst MLSEL staff at the pub crawls is that expanding the stadium would be a good thing.

Common thinking is that we could "easily" fill a 30,000-35,000 seat stadium given the passion in the city. Given the size of the waiting list, you can't challenge that view at present.

However, are we that sure of our guaranteed success?

While folks are clamouring for season seats now, it wasn't that long ago that TFC was selling season seats in packages of 10. In fact, they were giving away seats for multiple purchases. That was 2 years ago.

Then along came Beckham and in the span of 1 day, TFC sold over 1,000 season tickets and has never looked back.

Of course you can argue that the excitement of the Beckham signing got the people in the door and the environment at BMO is what hooked them. Even amongst the most casual of the parents of the U8 team I coach and brought to the qualifiers remarked that it was the most exciting live event they've ever been to. Requests for access to tickets is constant.

But is this passion in the numbers that you see it now sustainable? Or is it just a fad?

Prior to Beckham coming to the league, it didn't look as though we would support a 20,000 seat stadium. As prices rise, and (God forbid) the Argos move in and the stands get pushed further away, is Toronto really capable of supporting a 30,000-35,000 seat stadium?

There is a terrific thing going on down at BMO. Hopefully, it can last long enough to hold off the greed.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Not right now it cant, people would fall off and we'd prob get 25k or slightly under.
Way too soon.
Easy for me to say too cuz im a season ticket holder

[GeorgeB]

10000 additional seats would only be absorbed if 75% of them were at light grey or med grey prices

[Toronto_Bhoy]

^^Agreed.

If the seats were priced at the supporter rate maybe…but I think we're about right for now. Lots of empty seats in the West Stand towards the end of the season…at least a couple of thousand.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Would people resign after a 3rd desolate year tho? (not saying that itll defo happen)

[king dave]

Fill in the corners and put a few thousand seats where the fucking Carlseberg pirate patio is which would bring the total seating to around 24-27,000. That would be fine.
KD.

[CretanBull]

Fill in the corners and put a few thousand seats where the fucking Carlseberg pirate patio is which would bring the total seating to around 24-27,000. That would be fine.
KD.

Long term, I think this is the way to go...25k-26k is sustainable long term. If attendence ever fell off, they could make it up by lowering ticket prices.

[Roogsy]

At the moment, expansion really isn't a huge priority for me unless it includes a dedicated supporters section which sorry but the south stands doesn't qualify. Otherwise, I think the size is right to continue ensuring there aren't any empty seats.

[Beach_Red]

This is a good question. It has more to do with the rest of the league than with Toronto. TFC will become a winning team soon enough (next year, probably) and that will help, but the quality of the league needs to improve, too.

Someone here uses as their sig a quote from Danny Dichio, something like, "No disrespect to those American grounds but for them it's a family day out, in Toronto it's a real football crowd."

So, the question is, can there be one stadium so different from all the others for much longer?

Will those American grounds become more like Toronto or will Toronto become more like them? Because BMO has a lot of soccer Moms and family day out fans, too.

[TorCanSoc]

One more crap season, and we won't fill 20,000. Of course us die-hards will go but I see games of 15,000 in attendance at the tail end of another losing season.

Seattle 18,000 season tix, haven't kicked a ball. American MNT is miles past us. 30,000 for the Houston-CLB conference final. I think teh Americans love the game as well.

[Chevy]

Long term, I think this is the way to go...25k-26k is sustainable long term. If attendence ever fell off, they could make it up by lowering ticket prices.

Exactly. Patience is a virtue.

[SoccMan]

From the hate that most people on here have for the MLS, I'm starting to think that in a few seasons TFC win or not, will have a hard time selling out BMO's present 20,000 seats. It looks like we have alot of fans going to TFC games that expected the calibre to be of premier league level, but now that they have discovered it is not are complaining about the calibre of play in the MLS. How much longer will these fans come out to watch a team play in a league that is below there standard. Most people out here have let it be known that if TFC is not involved they would not watch an MLS game because they think the standard of play sucks, therefore, how much longer will fans watch even MLS games that TFC are involved in. Maybe another two to three years tops, before BMO field looks emptier than Crew Stadium.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

Long term, I think this is the way to go...25k-26k is sustainable long term. If attendence ever fell off, they could make it up by lowering ticket prices.

25.000 would be a great fit, tha would be a top east side stand. But i would rather see grass first at BMO.

[dag]

25.000 would be a great fit, tha would be a top east side stand. But i would rather see grass first at BMO.

What he said.

[JDG]

25.000 would be a great fit, tha would be a top east side stand. But i would rather see grass first at BMO.


What he said.

They will be accomplished together. It wouldn't be cost effective to do one, and then do the other.

[greatwhitenorf]

Grass is the key. We'll get a better brand of soccer coz better players, domestic or imports, will have no reason to say no to Toronto.

We'll also get more international games, whether they're club friendlies or national team games, tho not sure we want to see too much Canada at present. Unless it's our wonderful women's teams.

Stick an upper deck over the east side - 5,000 new seats - and leave it at that for now. The beer garden is just a little reward, a cruise and schmooze destination, for those smart enough to own season tickets. It has to remain untouched.

[J .]

Would love if they were able to give the supporters a section like they have in DC. I am not sure if we could support 30,000 people.

Some of the seats are overpriced and the market for TFC while there, is not that strong where they can continue to raise ticket prices.

[kodiakTFC]

It would be stupid to add 10k seats off the bat. The best idea is to add 5k and price them cheaply, go from there.

[Cashcleaner]

Again, people have to understand that while we may not fill a 35,000-seat stadium for every regular season game, we will fill it for playoff matches and special events.

You gotta look at the potential high-attendance events as well as the average-attendance events.

[Pookie]

Again, people have to understand that while we may not fill a 35,000-seat stadium for every regular season game, we will fill it for playoff matches and special events.

You gotta look at the potential high-attendance events as well as the average-attendance events.

... and then you have to balance that with the environment that is created if the stadium looks half full.

While no one can question the die hard supporters, Toronto is a bit of a finicky town. You can't sell out an Argos game but bring the Bills in and the place is packed. Has nothing really to do with football. It's more of an event and a place to be seen.

Even a hockey mad market like Toronto can't sell out their minor league team (Marlies). There are plenty of hockey fans. Tickets are much more affordable. Yet folks don't go because it isn't perceived as the "big league."


Right now it's a hot ticket for a number of reasons.

You have grass roots support that is organized and the team makes efforts to encourage that (pub crawls, supporters sections, posting team chants on the web site, etc).
It's an exciting environment and very reasonably priced. TFC can lose and you can still walk away singing and having a good time.
It's a popular sport. More people play soccer than hockey
It's new. New stadium, new team, new players. It's like the Skydome selling out every night. Novelty is great for ticket sales.
There is a chance to see a superstar in David Beckham. I go back to my original point in the 1,000 seats sold on the day he signed not counting the ones sold after. Those people didn't give the MLS a second thought until that moment.
Getting a ticket is a big deal. Hard to get tickets means people want to see what they are missing
I think if you screw with any of the above you risk losing fans.

Note that some of those factors, like Beckham, are beyond the team's control. Good players will go to the good leagues (Edu as an example this year). That's the fact that fans have to accept. Whether they accept it or start to view the MLS like the AHL remains to be seen.

I think when you look at pre-Beckham sales vs post-Beckham sales you have a clue as to what could happen.

The rest of that are things that the organization can control. Keep the enivornment fun. Adding additional supporters sections is great step. Prices are reasonable. Grass roots marketing continues with events like the pub crawls in the offseason.

Adding grass and keeping the Argos out would definitely keep it a hot ticket. Nothing against the Argos but if they come, the grass dream dies. With them comes a bigger stadium that loses its intimate feel. Though that might not be something the team fully controls given city ownership.

They would have to build a dome practice field off site in order to allow the city to maintain it's revenue stream and tell the Argos to piss off. That could be done but obviously requires some political maneuvering.

My message to ownership would be keep the intimacy and don't get greedy. While your support is solid it isn't rock solid. It's built upon a number of factors, each of which could unravel and ruin what we have.

[Fort York Redcoat]

From day one I thought this expansion, while guaranteeing available tix was not going to be MLSE/city/whoever elses priority year 2 or 3. It's safer to assume at least a 5 year plan is in action to test the enduring demand of the present amount of tix.

As has been mentioned elsewhere the average price per game is relatively low even with the increases per year. It's unlikely they will sacrifice the value of a ticket at this crucial point in builing a long term fan base.

[Steve]

At the moment, expansion really isn't a huge priority for me unless it includes a dedicated supporters section which sorry but the south stands doesn't qualify. Otherwise, I think the size is right to continue ensuring there aren't any empty seats.

Umm, you have season's, so of course it isn't a priority for you? Unemployment isn't really a huge issue for me because, you know, I have a job.

I think they should start looking at plans for expansion for the 2010 season. I mean, see how 2009 goes, but at least look at possible plans. My personal choice of expansion would be the corners, the north end, and the south end. As a final, maximum deal, I would like 2 levels on the north, 2 levels on the south, and the corners filled in. This would preserve the skyline, make the stadium more symetric, and add in seats in the cheapest sections. I know, I know, that isn't as good for MLSEs money making, but I seriously don't think Toronto could really support another section of high priced seats (like another level on the east). The cheap seats keep the expensive seats coming back, so by investing in the cheap seats, not only will they look like they're supporting the grass roots feel of the club (and selling a lot of beer), but they're ensuring their expensive seats stay filled.

[Mikey]

I think MLSE would sell the extra 10,000 tickets very easily, extras for their managers to scalp, extras for the connected scalpers and a few for the waiting list.

However, 2009 is probably going to be a negative growth year in Canada, with Ontario and the GTA being hit more than most. IF TFC continue to suck big time and MLSE push up the Season tickets another 25-30% for 09, then the scalpers could find themselves with even more unsold tickets after kickoff than they did in the second half of this season.

MLSE selling the extra 10,000 tickets as seasons - yes
10,000 extra bums on seats - no.

[olegunnar]

Fill in the corners and put a few thousand seats where the fucking Carlseberg pirate patio is which would bring the total seating to around 24-27,000. That would be fine.
KD.

I agree that would be the best plan, but it would also close the door on the Argos so it probably won't happen.

Closing the corners seems to be a no brainer, but we have to keep the possibility of moveable stands.

[Hitcho]

it wasn't that long ago that TFC was selling season seats in packages of 10. In fact, they were giving away seats for multiple purchases

Oh man... I need to change my shorts.

[flatpicker]

I think the safest thing would be to fill the south corners and set up some removable bleachers in the beer garden.
Filling the two corners would add a decent number of cheap seats that would fill up no problem.
Then they could decide to put up the temporary bleachers in the north depending on demand, visiting support, playoff game... that sort of thing.
I'm not sure how big those temporary bleachers come in, but I would imagine they could accommodate a thousand or so?

[Parkdale]

While folks are clamouring for season seats now, it wasn't that long ago that TFC was selling season seats in packages of 10. In fact, they were giving away seats for multiple purchases. That was 2 years ago.

Then along came Beckham and in the span of 1 day, TFC sold over 1,000 season tickets and has never looked back.


your facts aren't correct.

the team never 'gave away' seats. If you bought in the top 3 price tiers, you were given the option of buying a seat in the south end for $100. I WISH I had done that.

Also, we had thousands of seats sold before Beckham announced he was coming to the league. The sales of seats hadn't plateaued and then resumed once he made the announcement. They were selling, then had a spike in sales. You make it sound like sales had stalled and Beckham made them resume. That wasn't the case.

[adamdz]

As much as I would like to see expansion, I do not like seeing empty seats. Its hard to say whether the seats will continue to sell as the novelty continues to wear off, prices rise or the team fails to improve in next several years. Granted there currently is a fairly substantial list of people who would like seasons, who knows what that could look like in a few years.

Having grass first would probably be more beneficial as others have said (and both happening together is a possibility).

[ilikemusic]

Toronto would sell out a 40K stadium if tickets were kept under $30.

[Parkdale]

Toronto would sell out a 40K stadium if tickets were kept under $30.

and if we had a winning record.

Toronto likes to back a winner. That's just how it's always been. (leafs being the one oddball exception)

[Pookie]

your facts aren't correct.

the team never 'gave away' seats. If you bought in the top 3 price tiers, you were given the option of buying a seat in the south end for $100. I WISH I had done that.


According to my account rep, those companies that purchased a box were also given additional tickets in groups upwards of 10.

As for the Beckham spike, it is what it is. You could argue that sales were still going but stalled and would have eventually came anyways or you could argue that Beckham pushed a number of folks over the edge.

What is true is that Beckham's arrival had a league wide bounce that in Toronto equated to over 1000 seats in 24 hours.

What is also true is that Toronto is a "big league" city, paying little attention to perceived minor leagues.

This is a factor that has to be carefully considered when looking at expansion.

[rocker]

what do we need more seats for? I got my season tickets ;)

but seriously... to get a few more people in the doors, they just need to finish off the lower bowl completely around, and it's done. You'd get another 3000 in, and it'd be big enough to get in those that want in, yet not seem too big in though times when the support drops.

my plan would then include moving supporter groups to the New North End in a coordinated way.
Build the stand above the two group buildings, and make those group buildings "supporters club" buildings.

[Hitcho]

MLSE isn't going to expand unless it thinks it will get its money back. They'll play it safe and see if the current interest is maintained before committing. None of us really know if fans will continue to renew season tickets at over 95% year after year or if that's something that will wear off. Only time will tell, and MLSE will want to be reasonably sure of the investment before ponying up the dough.

That said, I would fully support filling in the corners at the south end as an interim step. It would be relatively cheap, generate a useful number of extra seats and allow for a more meaningful relocation event which would hopefully lead to a south end with more noisy supporters than it currently has.

The beer garden is surely there to stay, btw - Carlsberg sponsor the team and my guess is they have an option on the beer garden and all the branding and sales they get form it for a while yet.

[Derko]

Fill in the corners and put a few thousand seats where the fucking Carlseberg pirate patio is which would bring the total seating to around 24-27,000. That would be fine.
KD.

Agreed, I would say 25,000 would be great.

[Suds]

my plan would then include moving supporter groups to the New North End in a coordinated way.
Build the stand above the two group buildings, and make those group buildings "supporters club" buildings.

Interesting idea for sure ... i have sat near these group buildings and they are DEAD!!!

I agree with most posts here that MLSE & the city will not be looking at doing anything on expansion until about year 5 of the team.

I think if they were able to add a couple thousand seats in the interim, and for once actually crack down on scalpers and revoke their tickets to make more seats available, it would allow a better relocation opportunity for current SSH's and make some real movement on the waiting list. There are all kinds of temporary seating options they could look at before having to make a major investment in BMO.

[canadian_bhoy]

No to stadium expansion!!! 20k is a perfect number for now.

If they are going to do anything to the stadium, I say make what we have better - BMO is as bare bones as it gets.

[Parkdale]

If they are going to do anything to the stadium, I say make what we have better - BMO is as bare bones as it gets.

maybe some more washrooms, bank machines and more efficient gates would be the best thing. Improve the experience for the 20,000 who are already there, rather than expand to bring in more people.

[canadian_bhoy]

maybe some more washrooms, bank machines and more efficient gates would be the best thing. Improve the experience for the 20,000 who are already there, rather than expand to bring in more people.

I'm not going to use the R word (though that would be awesome). But covering up some of the skeleton of the stadium would be nice. More washrooms, more amenities would all be good.

[Parkdale]

I'm not going to use the R word (though that would be awesome). But covering up some of the skeleton of the stadium would be nice. More washrooms, more amenities would all be good.

which R word?

refreshment stands?
retail outlets?
rain protection?

:cool:

[canadian_bhoy]

which R word?

refreshment stands?
retail outlets?
rain protection?

:cool:

Full TRophy Room

[Steve]

No to stadium expansion!!! 20k is a perfect number for now.

If they are going to do anything to the stadium, I say make what we have better - BMO is as bare bones as it gets.

First of all, I'm glad you're happy with the number given that you already have seats for every game anyway and the scarcity doesn't really effect you.

Secondly, they probably don't do much to the stadium as far as cosmetics/roof/etc until they are at the maximum capacity they ever plan to go to. If they plan to go to 25,000 in the future, they will wait until they hit that point before making it look pretty (otherwise they might need to tear down the pretty pretty walls to put up more seats anyway).

[Parkdale]

can_bhoy's post

^ wow.... go look at my post in the 'TFC Pub night' thread and compare.

[SilverSamurai]

Full TRophy Room
With what? Edu's Rookie of the year trophy?
Although it'll be joined by the Voyageurs Cup trophy in a few months hopefully. :D

First of all, I'm glad you're happy with the number given that you already have seats for every game anyway and the scarcity doesn't really effect you.

Secondly, they probably don't do much to the stadium as far as cosmetics/roof/etc until they are at the maximum capacity they ever plan to go to. If they plan to go to 25,000 in the future, they will wait until they hit that point before making it look pretty (otherwise they might need to tear down the pretty pretty walls to put up more seats anyway).
I think 26ish is the max it can support to be honest. Maybe have a way to add a few temp seats for something like playoffs, friendlies or Canada games.
1st step is to fill in the corners. Could probably get an extra 1000 or so in there.

I'd rather see a full 24k seater then a semi-full with 35k, but man it would be awesome...

[Dave67]

The question I have is are there several thousand people on the waiting list that will come in on a higher end ticket. I suspect if 5,000 seats were added existing ticket holders would get the chance to move first. I suspect the supporters would have a better crack at their own section.

What I also suspect is that many people currently paying more than they are comfortable with will take the chance to relocate to the new cheaper seats. So even if more seats are added new fans may still need to come in on th expensive seats. Will they?

[Steve]

With what? Edu's Rookie of the year trophy?
Although it'll be joined by the Voyageurs Cup trophy in a few months hopefully. :D

I think 26ish is the max it can support to be honest. Maybe have a way to add a few temp seats for something like playoffs, friendlies or Canada games.
1st step is to fill in the corners. Could probably get an extra 1000 or so in there.

I'd rather see a full 24k seater then a semi-full with 35k, but man it would be awesome...

I think they should be aiming for a max of around 25-26K. If the league ever grows enough to warrent anything more, they would probably need to look for a new site anyway. I can see a multi-phase project though (expanding to 25K over one winter, then the next making general structural improvements).

My biggest complaint right now is with the Beer Patio. I just don't like the way it looks at all, plus its right in the main throughway for the entire west stand. If they wanted to keep something like that, I'l rather they raised it up (either put stands in the North, then have the Beer Patio as the roof there, have it behind the stands, or even just have it as an elevated platform without the stands). I just don't like fact that our field isn't fully enclosed, I think it would be more intimidating if teams were surrounded on all sides.

[james]

add a stand in the North End, maybe a stand bit smaller then the south end. Fill in the corners making BMO 23-26k will be a good fit. If we continue to suck tho the casual fans will drop off and we wont even sell out a 20k stadium. If we get a winning team hell we could sell 35k.....but we all know its rare that Toronto ever get a winning team in any sport!

[TFC OZZ]

I think they could fill a 30K stadium, the problem is, it wouldn't happen until at least 20 minutes into the game, because the lines would be even more rediculous than they are now.

Also, I agree, seasons tickets on the West stand are fucking insanely expensive. The Rogers club is a piece of shit for the amount we pay, and the tickets are just generally too high.

I was among the first 100 people to get seasons tickets, and I'm uncertain whether we will be renewing our 2 VIP tickets because it's just too much money (among other reasons)... So next season I will probably only renew my two tickets in 117.

[Captain Croatia]

Just put another stand on the north side that same size as on the south side...or fill the corners. 25,000 a game should'nt be a problem, maybe in 5-7 years we'll have a 30,000 seater.

[OneLoveOneEric]

I'm not sure how people think that 30K would be sustainable right now. As it is, there were a few thousand seats empty for most of the second half of last season. And it definitely effects the look and feel inside the ground when there are that many seat empty. Lots of seats are cheap, and people buy them and don't necessarily turn up when it rains, when it's cold, when they want to go to the cottage, etc. We'll have a lot of empty seats most nights if they expand.

[flatpicker]

^ I do agree that expansion isn't really needed...

But it wouldn't take much to fill the South corners.
And, it wouldn't require too many extra seats and it would improve the look and feel.
Then, slap a r**f on it and presto!

[OneLoveOneEric]

I don't disagree. I'm just really wary of having lots of empty seats. Our atmosphere is all we've got right now!

[Joe Kool]

I'm not sure how people think that 30K would be sustainable right now. As it is, there were a few thousand seats empty for most of the second half of last season. And it definitely effects the look and feel inside the ground when there are that many seat empty. Lots of seats are cheap, and people buy them and don't necessarily turn up when it rains, when it's cold, when they want to go to the cottage, etc. We'll have a lot of empty seats most nights if they expand.

I think alot of those empty seats are also because scalpers bought up the seats and were not able to sell them. I only had a half season last year and it pissed me off every time I had empty seats beside me because I know lots of people who would have loved to go and couldn't get tickets. I also know there were many games that I wanted to go to that I couldn't and there most likely was empty seats that I could have filled. I refuse to buy from scalpers and support that shit so I reluctantly watched it on TV. I would like to see the stadium a little bigger but agree with the majority not to make it too big and maybe invest in infrastructure a little bit.

[Hitcho]

All of these are good, affordable ideas without much of a downside:

- filling in the south end corners
- adding more bank machines
- add another set of entry gates

That lot will not cost MLSE much money, but it will A) add a few more seats to allow them to recoup most of the outlay, B) help with shuffling supporters around to their preferred zones, and C) improve the game day experience for the existing crowd size.

Without wanting to hijack the thread into the old scalper bashing threads of before, I'd also like to see the club take a mroe active role in identifying and cancelling serial scalper season ticket holders, and then add those seats to the relocation/waiting list program each year. It wouldn't be hard to do (scan ebay etc and if you find the same seats on sale more than, say, 10 times in a season at inflated prices, cancel the tickets at the end of the season, and same goes for tickets on sale through scalpers outside the ground). This would eliminate a lot of the empty seats at the ground, help reshuffle fans to their preferred areas and create a much better experience for everyone. Also, MLSE wouldn't lose any money and the waiting list would stay fluid for new fans of the club/sport.

[StandUpIfYouHateChelsea]

uh...... IS everyone Dilusional?? the seasons tix + the waiting list is like 26k thats like bmo now....... the city is huge, just keep the prices down , GET a dp , and rake in the cash on kits :canada::canada: we could support 40,000 if we get a high profile say..... Italian Dp you can count in all of little italy.... hmm we might aswell then just steal Commonwealth stadium:hump::D:noidea::drinking::drinking: :yum:

[Pookie]

Without wanting to hijack the thread into the old scalper bashing threads of before, I'd also like to see the club take a mroe active role in identifying and cancelling serial scalper season ticket holders, and then add those seats to the relocation/waiting list program each year.

I agree with a lot of what you say, particularly with adding another gate.

On the ticket front, hammering away at scalpers is both a good thing and potentially a negative thing for the ticket holder themselves.

At the ACC, season ticket holders paid a Personal Seat License (PSL) fee which gave them ownership over that seat. Generally speaking, the holder of the PSL can then sell the tickets at a profit. Selling their tickets in the "broker" market is what enables a number of them to afford to keep their seats. ie. Keep half, and sell the other half at a profit to recover the insane amount you had to pay to get the seats in the first place.

While that practice results in scalper heaven, it is good for the season ticket holder.

This is the same company. You already see a "Club Fee" apply to seats in the Club Section. Not owning those seats, I don't know what rights that fee entitles you to, if any.

That said, look around at other sports leagues and the PSL is the newest wave of "revenue generation." NY Giants fans have to cough up $1,000 to $20,000 per seat as a result of the new stadium. The NY Jets have a similar plan. The Leafs and Raptors already have one.

If the PSL came to BMO at the same time as a crackdown on ticket sales for profit, I think that could equate to a bad thing for the ticket holder.

[brad]

How many people would you guess are on in the beer gardens? (I'm horrible at estimating crowd sizes). That accounts for sizable number of empty seats.

[Suds]

How many people would you guess are on in the beer gardens? (I'm horrible at estimating crowd sizes). That accounts for sizable number of empty seats.

Depends on what you mean by sizable. I have stood and watched games from the beer garden and I would guess 200 - 300 (??) people tops. Everyone sits where my seats are and I prefer to stand and watch the game. So standing in the beer garden was a nice change from the yawner of a section I'm in.

From what I have read in other post this is why a number of people are in favour of seating being put in the beer garden. It addresses a couple of things 1) provides additional seating for relocation & waiting list 2) gets the people who stand their now into their seats around the stadium that now are empty.