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View Full Version : Let's talk about Vancouver and Ottawa (For a change)



Cashcleaner
11-24-2008, 10:26 AM
Yes, the Montreal deal looks dead in the water for the time being. And while I'm certain details from both the league and the bidders will eventually find their way here, I think we should also take note of the fact that Vancouver's and Ottawa's bids have both been accepted by Garber with little criticism.

Let's suppose that Vancouver and Ottawa are both brought in for the next round of expansion (a far-fetched scenario, but just bear with me). Given the fact that we would then have two more Canadian teams in the league, would we still plan all the roadtrips and activities for them as we would for Montreal?

It's early to talk about absolutes, but I'm getting the impression that the franchises in Vancouver and Ottawa may lose out on our enthusiasm simply because they're not Montreal. For the longest time that we've been talking about playing the Impact in MLS, we're constantly mentioning what sort of roadtrip numbers we might get and just how great the rivalry would become for both clubs and the sport itself here in Canada. I'm hoping that we don't quietly shelf all those plans just because Montreal is no longer a part of the equation.

JonO
11-24-2008, 10:28 AM
Ottawa would be much better for road-trips, but I think Vancouver is a better football town. Not really that familiar with either of their bids though (or their chances) especially Ottawa...

Parkdale
11-24-2008, 10:30 AM
Ottawa is a 5 hour drive. That's a very exciting prospect. We could easily take more people to Ottawa than we took to Columbus last season. Vancouver is obviously to far away for a "road" trip, but Ottawa would be a great weekend trip.

flatpicker
11-24-2008, 10:31 AM
If Ottawa get in then I am totally up for creating a big rivalry with them.
Also, if they get in, I think we need to make a strong effort in encouraging the team to organise their seat sales so they leave a large section open for visiting fans (mainly us of course). Understandably, Toronto would offer the only large visiting support during the season, but if they held back a section then it could be used as their single ticket sales area when we are not invading their home.

I hope they make it in...
I almost rather Ottawa get in over Vancouver.
Vancouver already has a pro team that we play against in the Canadian Championship.
Adding Ottawa would do more to boost soccer in the country as it would add another opponent to the mix.

BC101
11-24-2008, 10:35 AM
In order for there to be a rivalry with Ottawa the people of Ottawa would have to care first and i can't see them doing that.

Roogsy
11-24-2008, 10:36 AM
The problem with Vancouver is that they are so far away the fact that they are still a part of Canada is easily overlooked. Otherwise, they are about as relevant to a Toronto FC fan as Seattle or San Jose. It's hard to get up for a rivalry that will have so much going against it.

Ottawa on the other hand could be a rivalry, but to be honest I think the MLS would be stupid to award them a franchise just because Melnyk has a lot of money.

Cashcleaner
11-24-2008, 10:38 AM
^ Strangely, I think that Vancouver has got one of the better bids this time around, but the least amount of publicity here in Toronto.

I think for obvious reasons Ottawa is preferred out of both choices, but I'm still confident we could get a good contingent out to the West Coast for roadtrips. At least more than we would get for a place like KC, Dallas, San Jose, etc.

flatpicker
11-24-2008, 10:41 AM
Well, at least I have some friends in Vancouver that I could stay with...
They just moved there, but had been to several TFC games with me before the bolted out of T.O.
I wonder who they would be cheering for though???

Parkdale
11-24-2008, 10:50 AM
I wonder who they would be cheering for though???

it's pretty safe to say that if you live in Canada, and NOT in Toronto, then you dislike Toronto. It's pretty universal that way.

flatpicker
11-24-2008, 10:52 AM
^ yes, but they are from here, and only moved out that way a few months ago...
But they weren't complete "nerd" fans like us, so maybe switching allegiance won't be hard.

trane
11-24-2008, 10:54 AM
The only good thing about it, is that I cannot help but having a soft spot for Montreal, love the city and I like the way they play. I hate Ottawa naturally, and it is a deep passionate hate. That is one road trip I will be making.

Nodoubtguy
11-24-2008, 10:54 AM
Vancouver = party time for me!!!
I have some friends on the sunshine coast just north of Vancouver, so I got a place to stay.

Parkdale
11-24-2008, 10:56 AM
on thing that would kick serious ass - the being on the Via train up to Ottawa for the game. Ever car would be filled with Red!

Cashcleaner
11-24-2008, 10:59 AM
^ If only they could be persuaded into giving us a better deal for booking as a group. :(

As for Vancouver, chartering a flight(s) seems like a good way to go! At least we won't have the hassle of international flight which is again why I think we could still get good numbers for Vancouver.

brad
11-24-2008, 11:12 AM
I almost rather Ottawa get in over Vancouver.
Vancouver already has a pro team that we play against in the Canadian Championship.
Adding Ottawa would do more to boost soccer in the country as it would add another opponent to the mix.

Having Vancouver move up to MLS would help soccer in this country out substantially though. The Whitecaps do well for the USL, but they are a long way from being in the public eye. When they won the Championship, no one in the city even knew about it.

No one out that way cares about Toronto (or Ontario) for the most part. Vancouver in the MLS will raise the profile of soccer in Western Canada. Traditionally, BC has produced very good varsity level players, and having a larger operation out there could help them develop further. You would also have a better chance at pulling in people from the prairies as well.

flatpicker
11-24-2008, 11:13 AM
^ I won't disagree with that.

I guess I just like the idea of more Canadian competition.

Redcoe15
11-24-2008, 11:31 AM
In order for there to be a rivalry with Ottawa the people of Ottawa would have to care first and i can't see them doing that.
Word on that. I would much rather Vancouver get in at this point in time because they have the history and fan support to male it work in MLS. I really don't see how Ottawa can be successful. Just because Melnyk has a lot of dough and says he loves soccer, how has he shown that in the past the way Kerfoot and Saputo have shown? Are people gong to fill that stadium way out in Kanata? And is the city simply going to hand the land over to Melnyk so that he can build his stadium? I would think they'd much prefer a CFL team at this point than an MLS team.

mighty_torontofc_2008
11-24-2008, 11:57 AM
In order for there to be a rivalry with Ottawa the people of Ottawa would have to care first and i can't see them doing that.


people said that for the soccer fans in To before TFC even kicked a ball...
the talk was the soccer fans would NOT support MLS, how right were they? Ottawa will support a MLS team, that there is no question, though
it will be supported better if they build the stadium downtown and not share with an proposed CFL team for Ottawa.

SLBuu
11-24-2008, 11:59 AM
i'd be up for a trip to Ottawa!!

JonO
11-24-2008, 12:00 PM
To Mighty: I don't buy that... I can't say any of us could have predicted how well TFC would be supported... (oh and by the way, the TV numbers for TFC games are still crap)

Pigfynn
11-24-2008, 12:01 PM
In order for there to be a rivalry with Ottawa the people of Ottawa would have to care first and i can't see them doing that.


On Soccer Central this week they said that when they (Senators Ownership group) were doing their market research the data collected showed a stronger support for soccer in the Ottawa area than for hockey. No joke!

rocker
11-24-2008, 12:07 PM
i hate montreal very naturally, but after a few visits to ottawa recently i'm starting to hate that town too. it's a shit town with nothing to do there, and if it wasn't for the gov being there they'd be Brantford. So if they get in I could feel a good rivalry there.
I almost want them to get in now just to spite Montreal.

Although I preferred montreal getting in cuz it would be an instant awesome rivalry and i think being in MLS would take Montreal to the next level of fanbase. People generally would care more and they'd get 20000 a game like us. If they all got into MLS, I calculated that Ottawa<->Montreal would actually be the shortest roadtrip in the league.

gmacpheetfc
11-24-2008, 12:13 PM
^ you mean Kanata <--> Montreal would be the shortest trip they need new stadium plans Reno Old Lynx Stadium!!!!!

mighty_torontofc_2008
11-24-2008, 12:16 PM
i hate montreal very naturally, but after a few visits to ottawa recently i'm starting to hate that town too. it's a shit town with nothing to do there, and if it wasn't for the gov being there they'd be Brantford. So if they get in I could feel a good rivalry there.
I almost want them to get in now just to spite Montreal.

Although I preferred montreal getting in cuz it would be an instant awesome rivalry and i think being in MLS would take Montreal to the next level of fanbase. People generally would care more and they'd get 20000 a game like us. If they all got into MLS, I calculated that Ottawa<->Montreal would actually be the shortest roadtrip in the league.


come on No other town in Canada could be as bad as brantford...we are hard to beat!! Ottawa will be a good rivalry, and Montreal will apply again
once their fianances get stronger. The add Vancouver later on, dispite they good presentation MLS said they no longer want big stadiums, so unless the Vancouver politicians get thier act fast Vancouver will be in the USL for a while yet.

gmacpheetfc
11-24-2008, 12:17 PM
only set back
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/sports/story.html?id=f0e1713a-69f6-45c1-8133-9120babc6a36

Parkdale
11-24-2008, 12:18 PM
and Montreal will apply again
once their fianances get stronger.



I seriously doubt it had much to do with the finances of Joey Saputo. He's a billionaire right?

Once the press conference reveals what the Impact has to say, I think we'll know a lot more about the situation.

Mark in Ottawa
11-24-2008, 12:20 PM
Well obviously I would love a team here in Ottawa but there are so many hurdles and barriers being thrown up that I see it as a real challenge.

The city government is not well known for its support of sports teams, professional or otherwise. Right now the issue of urban transportation has them tied in knots.

Eugene Melnyk runs a first class organization with the Ottawa Senators but lets face it... its hockey and so not much of a "hard sell". Soccer will be something else.
It very much looks like if Mr. Melnyk wants to make a go of it he will be going alone.

I am not much in favour of the Kanata location given its present availability by car and bus. But I love the game and would still want seasons tickets.

Enticing the more casual fans of the game is the big challenge and the great unknown in all of this.

MG42
11-24-2008, 12:24 PM
i hate montreal very naturally, but after a few visits to ottawa recently i'm starting to hate that town too. it's a shit town with nothing to do there, and if it wasn't for the gov being there they'd be Brantford.

:lol:

mighty_torontofc_2008
11-24-2008, 12:28 PM
I seriously doubt it had much to do with the finances of Joey Saputo. He's a billionaire right?

Once the press conference reveals what the Impact has to say, I think we'll know a lot more about the situation.


But he wanted (needed) Gilette in as a partner, and the less said about Gilette the beter. If we Could Get MTL, Ott, Van into MLS all the better for canadian soccer, with Victoria in the USL, maybe Edm or Cal in there
as well it would give Canadian soccer a much needed boast.

Mark in Ottawa
11-24-2008, 12:30 PM
after a few visits to ottawa recently i'm starting to hate that town too. it's a shit town with nothing to do there, and if it wasn't for the gov being there they'd be Brantford. .

But Brantford isn't just across the river from Quebec now is it? ;)



If they all got into MLS, I calculated that Ottawa<->Montreal would actually be the shortest roadtrip in the league.

Which was one reason that the AAA baseball team in Ottawa was so popular when they were the farm team of the Expos. A short trip to watch "your guys" getting a shot in the big league!

trane
11-24-2008, 02:09 PM
Well obviously I would love a team here in Ottawa but there are so many hurdles and barriers being thrown up that I see it as a real challenge.

The city government is not well known for its support of sports teams, professional or otherwise. Right now the issue of urban transportation has them tied in knots.

Eugene Melnyk runs a first class organization with the Ottawa Senators but lets face it... its hockey and so not much of a "hard sell". Soccer will be something else.
It very much looks like if Mr. Melnyk wants to make a go of it he will be going alone.

I am not much in favour of the Kanata location given its present availability by car and bus. But I love the game and would still want seasons tickets.

Enticing the more casual fans of the game is the big challenge and the great unknown in all of this.

Wow, Garber is right, Ottawa's bid does sound much better them Montreal's bid. :mad: Garber is a joke.

james
11-24-2008, 02:36 PM
Vancouver is way to far away to ever get more then 100 or 200 fans travelling for away games.

Ottawa we could get a pretty good rivalry...its closer then columbus, i could see us getting 2-3,000 fans going for an away game. But it wont be like if Montreal joined MLS. The hate with Ottawa isnt as strong as the hate between Montreal and Toronto!

Mark in Ottawa
11-24-2008, 02:43 PM
The hate with Ottawa isnt as strong as the hate between Montreal and Toronto!
It was when we both had contending hockey teams ;)

james
11-24-2008, 03:13 PM
It was when we both had contending hockey teams ;)


im a big Leafs fan as i am a even bigger TFC fan now. Believe me i hated Ottawa back when we played each other alot in the playoffs, i couldnt stand alfredson, But even if Ottawa or any other city hate us most we always overall hate Montreal most!

RealG-TFC
11-24-2008, 07:01 PM
Ahhh I'm so torn. All I can doo is hope good on both of them and bad on the American expansion.

TorCanSoc
11-24-2008, 09:04 PM
I've got a bad feeling about both bids. Only because of Seattle's apparent "haven't kicked a ball yet but sold 18,000 season tickets" success. I think MLS want other American cities, and they will do whatever Seattle did.

Who's the decision maker anyway? Garber and some MLS execs, or does each owner get to vote?

J .
11-25-2008, 02:13 AM
Vancouver makes the most sense for the MLS. Close enough to Seattle for there, established team and big name which Americans know, Steve Nash, behind it.

I just cant believe in Ottawa getting a team. Boring bureaucratic town.

Miami and Vancouver have to be in the lead.

GhostPK
11-25-2008, 02:21 AM
Well, at least I have some friends in Vancouver that I could stay with...
They just moved there, but had been to several TFC games with me before the bolted out of T.O.
I wonder who they would be cheering for though???

Dude, thats a no brainer...... TORONTO TILL I DIE TORONTO TILL I DIE I KNOW I AM IM SURE I AM TORONTO TILL I DIE

(this comming from the guy who lives in BC... WEST COAST REDS)

mighty_torontofc_2008
11-25-2008, 12:08 PM
Vancouver makes the most sense for the MLS. Close enough to Seattle for there, established team and big name which Americans know, Steve Nash, behind it.

I just cant believe in Ottawa getting a team. Boring bureaucratic town.

Miami and Vancouver have to be in the lead.


Miamii maybe vancouver has no hope until a SSS is built, they can pretend their presentstion went well , but without a SSS they will be in the USL with Montreal.

Fort York Redcoat
11-25-2008, 12:19 PM
Garbers priority are in the US. I would prefer Ottawa than Vancouver for travel but conede Vancouver deserve it more. If they got in I'd still pick the V cup before a MLS game.

Steve
11-25-2008, 12:23 PM
Wow, Garber is right, Ottawa's bid does sound much better them Montreal's bid. :mad: Garber is a joke.

Ottawa: Offering to pay the full expansion fee and build a beautiful stadium

Montreal: Offering to pay a fraction of the fee and expand (as slightly as possible) their existing stadium.

That's what garber sees. Ottawa is willing to invest over 100M (probably closer to 150M) in MLS, Montreal is willing to invest barely 45M. Garber sees the Ottawa ownership as more committed to profit, therefor more committed to a professional league (if you are investing 150M up front, you plan to sell the game aggressively, for 45M, Saputo could just sit back and not change much).

And I know all of the intangibles, I'm not saying Ottawa would be a better team, but, from Garber's perspective, they at least look like they want it.

Fort York Redcoat
11-25-2008, 12:31 PM
This possible rivalry with Ottawa FC could really be something. Two young teams and not a one way rivalry like in other sports.;)

maninb
11-25-2008, 12:54 PM
Ottawa hasn't got ANY HOPE until 2012 at the earliest..Garber was just humoring them...I guarantee 95% of the Americans have NEVER even heard of Ottawa.

rocker
11-25-2008, 01:08 PM
If Saputo keeps talking the way he's talking, Ottawa has a better chance than Montreal of getting a team, even if that chance is nearly zero. Montreal looks like it's basically done as a potential MLS city unless Saputo suddenly has a change of heart or some new ownership team comes in with a new stadium elsewhere in Montreal and no concerns about the fee.
It's only gonna cost more in the future....

C.Ronaldo
11-25-2008, 02:52 PM
Id rather visit Vancouver.

I have no desire to go to small town Ottawa.

canadian_bhoy
11-25-2008, 03:03 PM
Here's my prediction for the MLS Expansion

1 Team to Miami
1 Team to the West Coast (possibly Vancouver).

With Seattle coming in this season and Philly in 2010 the league will once again be balanced.

Miami is IMO a lock for one of these teams - which means the league will have balance on their mind for the 2nd selection. With a downtown stadium and Steve Nash behind it - Van City may just get their wish.

Cashcleaner
11-25-2008, 03:17 PM
^ I'm starting to think Miami and Vancouver are in as well. Portland might squeeze Vancouver out, but I think Garber is gonna take another chance on Canada.

mighty_torontofc_2008
11-25-2008, 03:26 PM
Ottawa hasn't got ANY HOPE until 2012 at the earliest..Garber was just humoring them...I guarantee 95% of the Americans have NEVER even heard of Ottawa.

have not heard of Montreal or Vancouver either... Ottawa will be one of the 2011 picks... the other will come down to Miami or Portland...with Miami winning out.

mighty_torontofc_2008
11-25-2008, 03:28 PM
This possible rivalry with Ottawa FC could really be something. Two young teams and not a one way rivalry like in other sports.;)


It would be a good one...with Vancouver (NO SSS) and Montreal (no Cash) shooting themselevs in the foot, this is a great advantage for Ottawa. 2 Ontario teams in MLS, nothing could be better.

Beach_Red
11-25-2008, 04:10 PM
^ I'm starting to think Miami and Vancouver are in as well. Portland might squeeze Vancouver out, but I think Garber is gonna take another chance on Canada.

Let's face it, if 4 teams have the franchise fee ready to go, MLS will take it from all four. Is there any consideration other than the money? Really?

james
11-25-2008, 04:20 PM
it seems garber doesn't really want more Canadian teams, he wants to grow soccer in the USA. So if he does give a Canadian city a team hes gonna make sure its in a big market city......they will say Ottawa is to small of a market to get a team!

mighty_torontofc_2008
11-25-2008, 04:26 PM
it seems garber doesn't really want more Canadian teams, he wants to grow soccer in the USA. So if he does give a Canadian city a team hes gonna make sure its in a big market city......they will say Ottawa is to small of a market to get a team!


Garber wants Canadian teams, one that put it an honest Bid like Vancouver and Otawa have done, and not want to be jerked around
from the clowns in Montreal. Sinca Ottawa is the only remaining
Canadian city willing to put up a SSS, then they should get the nod.
NO to BC place in Vancouver, as that will kill any chance of a SSS
ever being built, the politicians would say that BC place is good enough
why build another stadium on prime land?

Vindaloo
11-25-2008, 04:35 PM
Actually under the definition of SSS, BC Place and it's planned unique design to create an intimate space of 22k seats, is an SSS. MLS has never said what it determines an SSS exactly. The American invented word means a smaller facility that hosts soccer as well as other sports. Is BC Place like BMO or a RBA? No, but neither is Seattle(60k seats), Miami(45k seats), or what Portland will become. I might add, all 3 of those are FieldTurf as well, and all 3 of those will host a grid-iron team as well as a soccer team.

Vancouver has the most informative bid out of any them. They have been the most thorough in every aspect of who is the exact ownership group and where they will play in March 2011. Their temp stadium is already paid for and their future plans have always been to build their own stadium with private funds. Except Miami, who else has offered such a complete and informative bid?

ensco
11-25-2008, 04:41 PM
I think Ottawa has no shot, now or ever. They would be disaster as a road opponent in every MLS city except Toronto. The US TV networks would snicker, or just terminate their contracts with MLS, I'm not sure which. MLS would take Portland long before they took Ottawa.

However, Melnyk is performing a valuable function in holding the line on the $40 million expansion fee - he will be allowed to be a stalking horse in every and any expansion process.

Vancouver is different. I don't think they'll make the top 2, but I believe they will be one of 4, if 4 teams are named. Given all that's going on with BC Place, it probably makes sense for them to be in the second group anyway.

GhostPK
11-25-2008, 06:49 PM
have not heard of Montreal or Vancouver either... Ottawa will be one of the 2011 picks... the other will come down to Miami or Portland...with Miami winning out.

95% of americans dont even know where canada is, however, Vancouver is the second largest city in Canada behind Toronto (GVA). More Americans would have heard of Vancouver over Ottawa.

Vindaloo
11-25-2008, 07:28 PM
Vancouver is actually the 3rd largest city in Canada. But I agree, most Americans have probably heard of Vancouver over Ottawa. The Olympics are only going to help that more. In fact, the popularity of the Olympics and how that transpires into an increased corporate atmosphere and tourist base might help Vancouver in it's bid process. At the very least, it can't hurt it.

james
11-25-2008, 11:27 PM
Garber wants Canadian teams, one that put it an honest Bid like Vancouver and Otawa have done, and not want to be jerked around
from the clowns in Montreal. Sinca Ottawa is the only remaining
Canadian city willing to put up a SSS, then they should get the nod.
NO to BC place in Vancouver, as that will kill any chance of a SSS
ever being built, the politicians would say that BC place is good enough
why build another stadium on prime land?

hey id like to wish Garber just gave teams to cities that have SSS's in there bids. But they have showed by giving Seattle a team that you dont need a SSS to get a team. You just need lots of money and television deals.

I think Ottawa could get a SSS, sell tickets, but they wont generate good revenue in the states on TV. I wish Ottawa got a team but i would be very,very,very suprised if Ottawa got a team over Vancouver,Miami, Portland, St.Louis or even Atlanta no matter how good Ottawa bid is unless Ottawa gives them double the money, which will never happen!

mighty_torontofc_2008
11-25-2008, 11:36 PM
95% of americans dont even know where canada is, however, Vancouver is the second largest city in Canada behind Toronto (GVA). More Americans would have heard of Vancouver over Ottawa.


more because of Vancouver Washington then the BC one. 95% of americans don't know where Canada is?? thats a stretch isnt it??

GhostPK
11-26-2008, 01:22 AM
more because of Vancouver Washington then the BC one. 95% of americans don't know where Canada is?? thats a stretch isnt it??

I was kidding obviously, but i bet my numbers weren't that far off :D :hump::canada:

Cashcleaner
11-26-2008, 01:42 AM
Garber wants Canadian teams, one that put it an honest Bid like Vancouver and Otawa have done, and not want to be jerked around
from the clowns in Montreal. Sinca Ottawa is the only remaining
Canadian city willing to put up a SSS, then they should get the nod.
NO to BC place in Vancouver, as that will kill any chance of a SSS
ever being built, the politicians would say that BC place is good enough
why build another stadium on prime land?

But that's an incredibly short-sighted way of looking at it. Why not renovate BC Place, alter the roof, and put in a natural surface? The Lions are getting a new facility in a few years so if the Whitecaps are the only ones playing there - that makes it a soccer specific stadium.

Contrary to what you may believe, professional sporting venues do not grow on trees.

GhostPK
11-26-2008, 01:43 AM
^ the only sad part is the whiteCRaps will never get 50K fans out

Cashcleaner
11-26-2008, 03:25 AM
But would that really turn away people from the club altogether? I don't think people are automatically turned-off when they see empty seats. It's not something you want, but I don't buy the idea that people are subconsciously discouraged from going to a sporting event because its not filled to capacity.

Besides, they can always do to the top level of the seats at BC Place what the Argos do at Rogers Centre. Put up some nice flashy banners and fill up all the levels underneath them.

flatpicker
11-26-2008, 03:31 AM
GhostPK - I don't think the BC Place *redux* will hold 50K

From what I understand, the renovations will cover up the upper deck of the stadium with a low level roof.

RealG-TFC
11-26-2008, 07:14 AM
But that's an incredibly short-sighted way of looking at it. Why not renovate BC Place, alter the roof, and put in a natural surface? The Lions are getting a new facility in a few years so if the Whitecaps are the only ones playing there - that makes it a soccer specific stadium.

Contrary to what you may believe, professional sporting venues do not grow on trees.

Do you have ANY sources of the Lions pursuing a new facility?

BTW if i;m not mistaken Vancouver said it will actively try to get it's own stadium while playing at BC Place, no?


GhostPK - I don't think the BC Place *redux* will hold 50K

From what I understand, the renovations will cover up the upper deck of the stadium with a low level roof.

If they need more seating, they will just open up the top.

Mark in Ottawa
11-26-2008, 09:18 AM
with Vancouver (NO SSS) and Montreal (no Cash) shooting themselevs in the foot, this is a great advantage for Ottawa.
Vancouver has no SSS and this counts them out?
Ottawa barely has a stadium of any sort at the moment!
1/4 of the existing North American football stadium was recently condemned as unsafe and torn down.

Two local groups with two completely different visions of the rebuild or new development of a major sports stadia has the city council paralyzed at the moment. All talk is about the redevelopment and little to none about the possability of a brand new SSS.

Melnyk never announced he was willing to "go it alone" and build the SSS without some public $$.

rocker
11-26-2008, 09:21 AM
the whitecraps BC roof roof looks like it will be a canvas thing that can be pulled down to the bottom of the upper deck, so the upper deck won't be visible (just the sky through the hole will be). Then for Bc Lions games, the canvas will be pulled back up to above the upper deck.
it won't just be a cover over the seats, like at Argos (suck) games.

NF-FC
11-26-2008, 10:11 AM
But that's an incredibly short-sighted way of looking at it. Why not renovate BC Place, alter the roof, and put in a natural surface? The Lions are getting a new facility in a few years so if the Whitecaps are the only ones playing there - that makes it a soccer specific stadium.

Contrary to what you may believe, professional sporting venues do not grow on trees.

Cash, you keep stating that the Lions are building there own stadium, where are you getting this info? As far as I've heard BC Place is their home for the foreseeable future. The only talk of them moving was they'd move into the new Whitecaps stadium, but that was before BC Place was awarded its renovation.

NF-FC
11-26-2008, 10:30 AM
for those who haven't seen the future BC Place yet:
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/245/1654213uv6.jpg

and inside SSS mode:
http://www.bcplacestadium.com/newsreleases/WC_Vision_2011.jpg

Fort York Redcoat
11-26-2008, 11:32 AM
the whitecraps BC roof roof looks like it will be a canvas thing that can be pulled down to the bottom of the upper deck, so the upper deck won't be visible (just the sky through the hole will be). Then for Bc Lions games, the canvas will be pulled back up to above the upper deck.
it won't just be a cover over the seats, like at Argos (suck) games.

Yeah and the Lions can fill up one side of their stadium instead of hiding the top tier. Too bad about BC Place. Too big. Shared stadium.

Oldtimer
11-26-2008, 12:23 PM
MLS expansion fee won't scare away Whitecaps

Vancouver group undaunted by Montreal's pullout


Ian Walker, Vancouver Sun

Published: Tuesday, November 25, 2008
Vancouver Whitecaps president Bob Lenarduzzi isn't into reading into things.
So despite a confusing turn of events this weekend, the longtime soccer executive said Monday he remains confident in Major League Soccer's desire for additional Canadian franchises. More specifically, one in Vancouver.
On Friday, MLS commissioner Don Garber announced in his annual state-of-the-league address that the Montreal Impact had withdrawn its bid because of financial concerns arising from the $40 million expansion fee.




Two days later, Garber amended his comments by saying the league actually had not retained the bid.
While it could be a simple matter of semantics, more concerning for Vancouver soccer fans should be Garber's comments that more Canadian franchises "take away from growing our footprint and our television ratings in the United States."


http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/sports/story.html?id=a0af2cc5-5873-45db-a550-724e0daac136

Vindaloo
11-26-2008, 06:45 PM
The refurbished BC Place configuration for soccer will effectively be a SSS(see official definition of this American invented word). I think people are really confused on what the SSS definition is. BMO for example is a single-use 'Soccer Stadium' only. It's not used for other professional sports like a true SSS.

The secondary inner roof will create at BC Place an intimate atmosphere by completely blocking off the upper deck from sightlines, while having the central part open to the sky above. It's not a BMO or a RBA, but neither is Seattle(60k tarped upper deck), Miami FIU(45k) or Portland. All three of these will also share their stadium with a grid-iron team and use FieldTurf. The difference between BC Place and Seattle/Miami is that the upper deck will not be visible at all.

Second. I haven't heard one thing about the BC Lions moving anywhere. In fact they have said the exact opposite this past spring.

mighty_torontofc_2008
11-26-2008, 06:50 PM
Vancouver has no SSS and this counts them out?
Ottawa barely has a stadium of any sort at the moment!
1/4 of the existing North American football stadium was recently condemned as unsafe and torn down.

Two local groups with two completely different visions of the rebuild or new development of a major sports stadia has the city council paralyzed at the moment. All talk is about the redevelopment and little to none about the possability of a brand new SSS.

Melnyk never announced he was willing to "go it alone" and build the SSS without some public $$.
\
Nothing wrong with public money being used...look at all the wasted money going into Vancouver 2010? So if Ottawa MLS team gets some public money all the power to them. Bc place with the CFL lines will look just terrible for MLS, not that they haven't dealt with that before.

Vindaloo
11-26-2008, 09:52 PM
Federal and provincial public funds going to the Olympics is a completely different animal than a private ownership group trying to get a sports franchise for their city with the addition of public funds.

The reason why expansion bids that need public funds are looked as less 'complete' is for that exact reason. They aren't complete. They rely on civic or provincial/state gov'ts to supply public funds, which need approval from their elected bodies. How does the public view this, what time is needed in the process, is it election time, what civic projects are more important? All these can factor in. A private investor can be an easier route to go by.

Cashcleaner
11-27-2008, 01:20 AM
Did a little digging about the new BC Lions stadium, and I think you guys are right. Looks to me like the proposal was dropped when the agreement was made to renovate BC Place.

Would it still be a bad thing for the Whitecaps if they ground-shared, though? I don't know much about the current facilities at BC Place but could they lay down a natural surface over the artificial turf? Doable or not?

Vindaloo
11-27-2008, 03:21 PM
It's currently not practical to put down real grass because the stadium's main use throughout the year is an exhibition centre hosting trade-shows, conventions, sporting events, and one-off concerts. There's only 9 Lions home games a year compared to the 200 other days of the year the stadium in in operation. These events contribute millions to the local economy and provide millions in economic benefit to the provincial gov't.

As for ground sharing. For the interim until the Caps build their own stadium I think it will do. Let's remember, Miami will play at FIU(45k) which will share with a grid-iron team on Field Turf. Portland will permanently play on a shared field with a university grid-iron team too, on Field Turf. So that's half of the 6 expansion bids that will share grounds. Also, grid-iron lines would not be visible as they wash them off after use(water soluble) and lay down soccer lines.

It could be doable but installing a modular turf system would be costly. They would need space to assemble and maintain the pitch when it's not being used. There is no space downtown where they could do that. Here is the GreenTech modular system which they used at Beijing Olympics and the Moscow Champs League Final -

http://www.greentechitm.com/systems/multiuse.asp

http://www.greentechitm.com/slides/popShow.asp?slideShowID=50E1A148-F7C7-419C-829B-66F113ABAD4B

GhostPK
11-28-2008, 12:54 AM
from what I heard from the grapevine, (youtube comments) is that whitecRap fans are expecting to have BC place as is, which is 50K seating capacity. Again, that will NEVER be filled for a whitecRaps regular season game

Vindaloo
11-28-2008, 12:54 PM
Are you generalising that all Whitecaps fans are expecting this, and basing that on comments posted on YouTube??

Informed fans of the Whitecaps and of the sport, from what I've read, are quite aware of the stadium plans. These fans of the club, USL, and MLS all know that the stadium would have issues filling up to capacity for matches. This is isn't a new revelation.

BC Place is almost 60k not 50.

GhostPK
11-28-2008, 09:15 PM
Are you generalising that all Whitecaps fans are expecting this, and basing that on comments posted on YouTube??

Informed fans of the Whitecaps and of the sport, from what I've read, are quite aware of the stadium plans. These fans of the club, USL, and MLS all know that the stadium would have issues filling up to capacity for matches. This is isn't a new revelation.

BC Place is almost 60k not 50.

Either way, kind of a waste don't you think? BC Lions dont even fill capasity unless its a playoff game.

jloome
11-28-2008, 09:50 PM
it's pretty safe to say that if you live in Canada, and NOT in Toronto, then you dislike Toronto. It's pretty universal that way.

Now THAT kind of shit is what people dislike, the assumption by Torontonians that you'd have to hate the city -- or even have an opinion or care one way or the other -- not to live there! It really isn't a given Parkiel you have to remember there are ex-pat Torontonians all over the country. I have lots of friends here who love Toronto.

Not all that fond of Torontonians, but then again I find most city dwellers to be uncivil, brusque and hurried.

Me, I like TO. World-class, but b-grade world class. It ain't Paris or London or Chicago, but it's above the Houstons, Montreals and San Diegos of the world.

jloome
11-28-2008, 09:52 PM
Are you generalising that all Whitecaps fans are expecting this, and basing that on comments posted on YouTube??

Informed fans of the Whitecaps and of the sport, from what I've read, are quite aware of the stadium plans. These fans of the club, USL, and MLS all know that the stadium would have issues filling up to capacity for matches. This is isn't a new revelation.

BC Place is almost 60k not 50.

Beyond which, they've already accounted for this with a plan to use an inflatable insert to cut off the top decks, removing half the capacity without it looking like an empty eyesore on TV.

mighty_torontofc_2008
11-28-2008, 10:36 PM
Now THAT kind of shit is what people dislike, the assumption by Torontonians that you'd have to hate the city -- or even have an opinion or care one way or the other -- not to live there! It really isn't a given Parkiel you have to remember there are ex-pat Torontonians all over the country. I have lots of friends here who love Toronto.

Not all that fond of Torontonians, but then again I find most city dwellers to be uncivil, brusque and hurried.

Me, I like TO. World-class, but b-grade world class. It ain't Paris or London or Chicago, but it's above the Houstons, Montreals and San Diegos of the world.


Toronto is a great city , attractions, sports, concerts, underground,
all they are missing is the NFL!! Wouldn't want TO to be like Paris,
thats why we have a Montreal

Vindaloo
11-29-2008, 03:23 PM
Either way, kind of a waste don't you think? BC Lions dont even fill capasity unless its a playoff game.

The stadium is a waste? I explained 7 posts up what the stadium is used for. It's main use is a convention and tradeshow space that injects millions into the local and provincial economies 200 days out of the year.

A waste as a soccer venue? I think we all agree that a 20-30k capacity stadium, which the Whitecaps have planned, is obviously better. But a 'temporary' venue like BC Place, with the unique secondary roof blocking off the upper deck, is better than nothing for the time being.