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Redcoe15
11-22-2008, 09:06 PM
No Impact


Montreal is out.

Impact owners/financiers Joey Saputo and George Gillett have looked at their bank books and the markets, and decided that a $40-million (U.S.) expansion fee and the cost of building a new grandstand at Stade Saputo are more than they can presently afford.

I have deeply mixed emotions about this. Certainly, I'm disappointed that a good organization with a cozy stadium won't be stepping up to join Major League Soccer any time soon.

But I've also struggled to understand why a modest little club enjoying a wonderful season (USL-1 finalists, Voyageurs Cup champions, into the quarters of the CONCACAF Champions League) would want to commit such a huge amount of money to be part of such an odd, limiting league

READ MORE (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081122.WBsoccerblog20081122161303/WBStory/WBsoccerblog)

Oldtimer
11-22-2008, 09:24 PM
I'm still upset about this.

Out of all of the bids, the one I really wanted in was Montreal.

Vindaloo
11-22-2008, 09:53 PM
This is the one time I had some disagreement with an article from Ben Knight.

He says, "Obviously, MLS is a significant step up from USL-1. But is that difference really worth $40-million?"

Well..ummm...ya! Ben says it, it's a step up from USL. Well duhh then....is it really that hard to fathom that sports fans want to watch and support a local team of the highest tier of a sport in their hometown? People support an NHL or NBA team, both of which are US companies, so why the hell should MLS be any different? If Montreal can't afford $40m then so what, there is plenty of bids that will.

Beach_Red
11-22-2008, 09:59 PM
I'm still upset about this.

Out of all of the bids, the one I really wanted in was Montreal.

Me too, but $40-$50 million? It really seems like way too much.

MLS better raise the salary cap soon. And here they are making rosters smaller.

trane
11-22-2008, 10:52 PM
Good article. Interesting questions, and trully why 40 Million when two years ago it was 10 Million. What has changed? Is the situation so much better that it justifies such a huge hike?

Toronto_Bhoy
11-22-2008, 10:58 PM
Is the Montreal going to be the first of a number expansion bidders to balk at this outrageous fee?

I just can't conceive "intelligent" investors [and sponsors] in this current [and future] business climate coughing up this type of cash. This fee is 4 times what we paid!

Saputo has the money but he's no fool…

trane
11-22-2008, 11:10 PM
^ That is exactly it, money or no money why buy into this league for 40 Million? I understand if the fees went up even a 100 % to 20 Mill, but another 30 Mill in two years. It makes no sense.

mighty_torontofc_2008
11-22-2008, 11:11 PM
Is the Montreal going to be the first of a number expansion bidders to balk at this outrageous fee?

I just can't conceive "intelligent" investors [and sponsors] in this current [and future] business climate coughing up this type of cash. This fee is 4 times what we paid!

Saputo has the money but he's no fool…


The fees fits a growing sports league...The Impact were fools for not building their stadium up to the MLS minimum 20,000 seats thus leaving them open to the economic downturn that has it most of the planet.
Montreal will be giving another chance, but not for a while you are looking at 2015-16 at least for the Impact.

trane
11-22-2008, 11:17 PM
The fees fits a growing sports league...The Impact were fools for not building their stadium up to the MLS minimum 20,000 seats thus leaving them open to the economic downturn that has it most of the planet.
Montreal will be giving another chance, but not for a while you are looking at 2015-16 at least for the Impact.


How has the MLS grown that much to justify the increase? What franchises are financially stable/viable TFC and what 2 or 3 others? The yanks are deluding themselves.

Toronto_Bhoy
11-22-2008, 11:31 PM
The fees fits a growing sports league...The Impact were fools for not building their stadium up to the MLS minimum 20,000 seats thus leaving them open to the economic downturn that has it most of the planet.
Montreal will be giving another chance, but not for a while you are looking at 2015-16 at least for the Impact.

Fits a growing sports league???

What league in the world increases it franchise fee 4 fold? Name one…

In fact name a fast growing sports league?

TorCanSoc
11-22-2008, 11:34 PM
Montreal is going to get their ass handed to them in the CCL and be begging to get into MLS next year. They'll be screaming to get into the league. I really hope Vancouver gets in. Ottawa came out of left-field, I doubt they'll get it, but who knows with this stuff. I just hope one of them gets in.

If Seattle's 18,000 season ticket holders renew their season tix in 2010. And Philadelphia repeats anywhere close to Seattle's success, then I'd say the "Canadian phenomenon" will be put to rest. Henceforth making more Canadian teams harder to get in. MLS with two successes one in Seattle and one in Philly then this will pretty much snub any further Canadian expansion. I think Montreal is blowing their chance to step it up.

trane
11-22-2008, 11:41 PM
^ I do not care how the franchises do in the US. I care about footy in my country. I hope that the Impact go further, because it will help further the Canadian game.

troy1982
11-23-2008, 12:33 AM
Fits a growing sports league???

What league in the world increases it franchise fee 4 fold? Name one…

In fact name a fast growing sports league?

easy supply and demand just how everything else is price.
The value of something is how much someone is willing to pay for it. 2 years ago no one was willing to pay for an mls team for more than 20 million now 6 bids are willing to pay for one for 40 million.
I would say the fee should be higher since you have 6 bids for 2 spots who are all willing to spend $ 40 million. I think a price of $ 60 million would be the current value since i am sure you would have 2 bids left at that price.

kodiakTFC
11-23-2008, 12:42 AM
according to MLSR, Montreal's ownership group came out today and said this wasn't true.

J .
11-23-2008, 01:12 AM
Whether this is true or not, I read somewhere a quote something like " its not the team I hate, its their fans " and so that statement is true here with Montreal for me.

Wish they would join the league, but have nothing good for their fans.

Cashcleaner
11-23-2008, 02:44 AM
I don't see the justification of $40 million, either. What exactly are you buying with that money? The MLS organization itself is proving to be less a sporting league and more a marketing business, so it's not like you're getting into an entity along the lines of MLB, NBA, or NFL. For the most part those leagues have a fairly hands-off approach to most matters and give the individual teams control over much of their dealings such as player transactions, ticket sales and marketing, etc.

I've said it before - I am gutted with the news about Montreal, but I also can see some of their reasons for pulling their bid.

Keystone FC
11-23-2008, 05:00 AM
I don't see the justification of $40 million, either. What exactly are you buying with that money? The MLS organization itself is proving to be less a sporting league and more a marketing business, so it's not like you're getting into an entity along the lines of MLB, NBA, or NFL. For the most part those leagues have a fairly hands-off approach to most matters and give the individual teams control over much of their dealings such as player transactions, ticket sales and marketing, etc.

I've said it before - I am gutted with the news about Montreal, but I also can see some of their reasons for pulling their bid.


Again, I agree Cash. If you look at it more and more MTL is making the right move. As a USL squad they have a SSS that needs no more expansion, they are financially sound, they are playing for the CCL title, they have a good fanbase, and in a league that doesn't have unnesseccery tournaments, and are very dominant in their league. They come to the MLS that may all be wiped out for what? To play in the same tournament that MLS clubs play in? To travel to the other side of the continent to play a club that only gets 1,000 people in the seats? To up the price on tickets to offset the rise of player salaries?
Would I have liked to see MTL in the MLS...Yes! But I also would like them to be a success in the ways of TFC being successful because in the long run we are talking about Canadian Soccer in general when we talk about TFC, Van, and MTL. As it stands right now all 3 are successful in certain areas (on the pitch, in the stands, in the community, in the media) and for one to fall or fail means it's that much harder to convince people to invest in the sport in Canada.

Beach_Red
11-23-2008, 10:10 AM
In fact name a fast growing sports league?

Well, that's just it. This is the only league with expansion opportunities.

Well, the NFL would be happy to have a team in LA but they want a billion dollars. A billion. Houston paid, what, $700 million?

In five years $40 million could look as big a bargain as the TFC expansion fee does now.

There are many reasons why soccer is the most popular team sport in the world - and the fact even the goofy MLS is succeeding as much as it is and expanding proves it's the sport that's worth it.

sidvan
11-23-2008, 10:45 AM
Would have been great for TFC and a natural rival. Given the economic climate, I believe Montreal made the right decision.

CretanBull
11-23-2008, 01:32 PM
A few years back, you could have bought a ready-made team (Houston, from San Jose) for $35 million. Why $40 million for an expansion side? Picking from a list of cast-off players from a league that has a diluted talent base to begin with doesn't make a lot of sense...even less so during an era of expansion when there are several new teams coming into the league within a few years of each other.

CretanBull
11-23-2008, 01:36 PM
Suputo is a billionaire, so is Gillett (although more of his money is tied up). They can 'afford' a team, it just doesn't make sense. Montreal is doing well in the ULS. It would take a long, long time to make up the $40 million fee plus the cost of stadium expansion simply by selling an extra 7,000 tickets per game.

Redcoe15
11-23-2008, 01:55 PM
Knight: More from Montreal


Make of this press release what you will, soccer fans:
---
RECTIFICATION REGARDING MONTREAL'S BID FOR MAJOR LEAGUE SOCCER
Following MLS Commissioner Don Garber's statements regarding Montreal's bid, the Montreal partnership group would like to bring one important rectification:

Montreal did not withdrew its bid from Major League Soccer but was informed that the league did not retain its bid. Out of respect for the Grey Cup festivities, the partnership group will not make any additional statements over the weekend. However, the President of the Montreal Impact [and] Saputo Stadium, Mr. Joey Saputo, who is spearheading Montreal's MLS bid, will meet the media: Monday, November 24, 2008, 10:30 am, Saputo Stadium, 4750 Sherbrooke Street, Montreal.
---
Here comes the other side of the happy, happy MLS expansion story, folks. It won't be dull.

Onward!

keem-o-sabi
11-23-2008, 02:38 PM
fans would have to actually buy the tickets in montreal to make up the costs. They give away most of their tickets to matches (to the tune of 70% of tickets to matches are free).

Parkdale
11-24-2008, 09:56 AM
and the plot thickens.....

Technorgasm
11-24-2008, 10:08 AM
Im glad.
Gillette is fucking up my club. (Liverpool)

no need to have his dirty fucking hands in the MLS pot too.

Steve
11-24-2008, 10:17 AM
A few years back, you could have bought a ready-made team (Houston, from San Jose) for $35 million. Why $40 million for an expansion side? Picking from a list of cast-off players from a league that has a diluted talent base to begin with doesn't make a lot of sense...even less so during an era of expansion when there are several new teams coming into the league within a few years of each other.

The expansion fee is a bet on league growth. Look at the forbes valuation for TFC, they value as at what, 44 million now? That's a nice 4x increase from our expansion fee in 2 years. No matter how you look at it, that's a kick ass investment. You have to realise that now, with TFC showing a nice profit the first year, expansion fee is going to go up (as other investors will see that and hope to replicate it). Also, Beckham came in after we got the expansion, so that might have driven up the fees some.

Personally, I would say the fees have probably gone up a little fast, but, since they have 6 investors for 2 spots, the market would disagree with me.

Chewy Unikronik
11-24-2008, 10:39 AM
Im glad.
Gillette is fucking up my club. (Liverpool).
How exactly is he doing this, if the team is at the top of the table?

gmacpheetfc
11-24-2008, 11:46 AM
Anyone catch the press conference?????

Parkdale
11-24-2008, 11:47 AM
How exactly is he doing this, if the team is at the top of the table?


and they won't be at the end of the season. They'll probably have to sell off some big name players just to keep the lights on in the clubhouse.

CretanBull
11-24-2008, 12:55 PM
They have such a huge roster they probably wouldn't notice a few sell-offs. That Lucas guy sucks...why they play him over Alonso is absurd (even if they have Champions League games to worry about).

As for the business side of things, isn't it the other guy Hicks who's causing the money problems?

billyfly
11-24-2008, 01:09 PM
Whether this is true or not, I read somewhere a quote something like " its not the team I hate, its their fans " and so that statement is true here with Montreal for me.

Wish they would join the league, but have nothing good for their fans.

Thats my signature. That's where you read it.

wisnae me
11-24-2008, 07:32 PM
Anyone catch the press conference?????

From
http://www.montrealimpact.com/News/News.aspx?language=EN&ArticleID=1031&Focus=0

MONTREAL - Following Major League Soccer (MLS) Commissioner Don Garber’s comments on Montreal’s bid for the upcoming 2011 expansion, Montreal Impact and Saputo Stadium President Joey Saputo presented a briefing Monday morning to clarify the facts and shed light on the circumstances leading to the rejection of Montreal’s bid. Read the full address of Joey Saputo, principal representative of the Montreal bid delegation.
***

Hello to all,

Thank you for your presence at this morning’s briefing.

First of all, I would like to take this occasion to congratulate the Alouettes for their incredible season, knowing how difficult it is to be competitive year after year on the Montreal professional sports scene.

Congratulations to the organization and to all team members.

***

Speaking as the representative of a group that wanted to obtain an MLS franchise in Montreal, I consider it essential to speak to you today to straighten out a number of facts about our bid.

As you know, a lot has been said and written over the past few days regarding Montreal’s bid for an MLS franchise.

Today, I want to take the necessary time and opportunity to clarify, once and for all, some very important issues with you.

First:
Montreal never at any point withdrew its bid from the process. We were rather informed that our bid was not retained.

Second:
The Montreal partnership NEVER, at any point, had any trouble whatsoever financing its bid.

Third:
There was NEVER any question of using public funds to finance this project.

***

So what happened exactly?

Allow me to briefly recap our bidding process.

In March of 2008, the Saputo and Gillett families combined their incredible strengths and experience in sports and entertainment to acquire an MLS franchise in Montreal.

While there was no bidding process per say back in March, we decided to put forth a proposal that was basically turnkey for the league, since we believe Montreal is an incredible market for soccer.

At that time, our detailed proposal projected a private investment, including franchise fee and stadium expansion, which totaled $43 M CDN.

After a few months and no feedback from the league, we were then informed that we had to resubmit a bid, this time by October 15, following specific guidelines.

Between the two bids, the financial landscape had dramatically changed, and we are now faced with an economic crisis of epic proportions and the Canadian dollar continuously losing value.

We nevertheless pooled our collective strengths and submitted a thorough, detailed bid which this time around, represented a total private investment of $45 M CDN.

At the end of October, having received no news from the league, I contacted MLS to inform them that Montreal, if need be, given its solid infrastructures and operational experience, would be ready to join MLS as early as 2010, should it suit the league.

During that same call, I was told that we would be invited down to New York to meet MLS officials to discuss our bid.

Finally, last week, after receiving an invitation to the MLS Final but still no news on our proposal, five weeks after submitting our bid in October, I was informed that our bid had been outright rejected because it never met the $40 M US expansion fee.

Since the beginning of our discussions with the MLS, we have always demonstrated interest, but not at any price.

Why?

Because we have the responsibility to ensure the development of soccer and its sustainability in Quebec;

Because we want soccer to remain affordable in Montreal;

And because we believe that after 15 years of experience and history, Montreal is, without any doubt, a sure value soccer-wise.

Of all MLS potential new markets, we are one of the very few that can immediately deliver a turnkey soccer operation:
- We continue to have success on the field;
- We have a tremendous fan base and media following;
- We have unprecedented experience in sports and entertainment marketing;
- We have an existing expandable soccer specific-stadium;
- And we have an experienced player roster that wouldn’t dilute the overall player pool.

Our bid included a 20,000 seat expansion in our stadium.

This expansion phase would not only have enabled us to meet MLS criteria, but would have ensured the completion of the grandstands around the stadium, as well as added a row of corporate boxes in the upper level.

We had also offered the creation of a foundation to continue our mission of promoting and developing soccer in Quebec and in the community because this is a fundamental factor of our success.

Finally, we are continuing to work on an indoor soccer center project to be located near the stadium, which will serve as a training facility year-round for the team as well as the Academy.

In soccer, like in any other realm of business, we have to make sure that our next acquisition will not be our last acquisition because it is a bad acquisition.

We strongly believe that a $40 M US franchise fee alone would seriously mortgage the future of soccer and of our team.

The bid that was submitted was absolutely not meant to be interpreted as a lack of respect towards the MLS and the expansion process.

Instead, I believe our approach was sound, based on a credible business model, in order to have a healthy franchise in the Montreal market.

In our eyes, this was a crucial element, especially given the current economic context.

We have the capacity to pay the $40 M US expansion fee.

I assure you that the issue was NEVER a question of MLS not being affordable for our group. It was - above all - a question of being sensible.

Unfortunately, while we stated our case in a detailed proposal, we never really had the opportunity to meet with MLS to discuss these issues, nor did we ever receive proactive feedback from our proposals at any time throughout this process.

I can only assume that the expansion fee – and the expansion fee alone – is the predominant criteria for entering MLS.

Having said that, while we were told that MLS is out of the picture for 2011, we remain open to any possible expansion in the future.

However, if the long and winding road of professional soccer in Montreal has taught me one thing, it is that any decision we take regarding this team and our sport has to make business sense first.

Regardless of the league in which we will play, our approach and philosophy have enabled us to achieve remarkable things up to now:

- We have a fantastic soccer stadium that is coveted by many clubs in North America;

- We are one of the most decorated teams in the history of Canadian soccer;

- We are the Canadian champions and will be taking part in the quarterfinals of the CONCACAF Champions League in February;

- We have enjoyed international success with the Champions League and are determined to do everything it takes to repeat it next season;

- And year after year, our base of loyal fans increases, as our record attendances this season reveal.

The reality is, this team needs a year-round training facility and - should attendances continue to grow - we will eventually need to expand the stadium.

So many of the elements of our proposal can and will be implemented, whether we are in MLS or not.

To that effect, I can assure you we will always continue to improve ourselves every way we can, by always maintaining high standards of excellence.

And we will always look for ways to reach higher goals – without selling ourselves short or mortgaging our future.

Thank you very much.

Joey Saputo

Roogsy
11-24-2008, 07:39 PM
Can't say I disagree with the man. They have to look at the business side first and if the combined value of the investment was 45mill, MLS should have at least seen the bid process through to the end instead of kicking them out before it ended. Very disrespectful in my opinion.

I hope MLS doesn't make the same mistake as the NHL and let anyone own a team in the league just because they can apparently come up with the initial investment only to cause the league embarrassment later on.

Oh well...Montreal will continue to have success within the USL and more power to them. I have to say it is disappointing on the part of the MLS not to see the forest through the trees.

TorCanSoc
11-24-2008, 10:59 PM
Was that a press conference... with no press there? Joey sounds pissed. Has he burned bridges?

nascarguy
11-24-2008, 11:41 PM
guys Gillett is a asshole and the mls does not need any more asshole in it

mighty_torontofc_2008
11-24-2008, 11:48 PM
guys Gillett is a asshole and the mls does not need any more asshole in it


Liverpool dont need him or Hicks either...both are scumbags. But the fact remains Saputo didn't want to pay the $40 million expansion fee, he new the rules going in, and tried a cheap trick that had no chance to make
it. Bye bye Montreal you won't be missed...enjoy the USL for the next decade.

GhostPK
11-25-2008, 02:54 AM
If anything, I think MLS has burned bridges and has released the statement of "We've got 40 million.. do I hear 45?". Does anyone think MLSE would have paid 40 mill for TFC to get into the MLS? Nevermind a team with a great USL history and a team who is currently canada's rep in concacaf. Who cares if people hate the owners, they have a very successful club and with the way they are playing it... MLS has missed a major market. Garber is looking too short term by not being able to negotiate the 40 mill franchise fee. We are not even talking about a sizable difference in negotiations when you consider the return MLS could have within a couple of years.

I think Seattle's season ticket sales have blinded the execs of MLS from considering anything short of major cash immediately. How sad it is.

Cashcleaner
11-25-2008, 03:32 AM
Fuck guys, get off your obsession with Gillett for a second and think about the actual details of the Montreal bid.

Yeah, we get it. Liverpool and all that. We're not talking about Liverpool!

Here's the way I look at it:

The Impact figured that given the fact their club is already playing professionally and has been marketed for years now to soccer fans in Quebec, he felt he should have been given a discount from MLS as so much of the groundwork has already been laid. Think about that for a second. There are cities in the running for teams with absolutely no level of existing public support, no existing brand recognition, and no facilities or staff already in place. Why shouldn't the Impact get a break off the expansion fee? They've already done most of the work that the league would normally do for a bid with no existing team.

I think Montreal got the shaft on this one.

SilverSamurai
11-25-2008, 03:45 AM
If anything, I think MLS has burned bridges and has released the statement of "We've got 40 million.. do I hear 45?". Does anyone think MLSE would have paid 40 mill for TFC to get into the MLS? Nevermind a team with a great USL history and a team who is currently canada's rep in concacaf. Who cares if people hate the owners, they have a very successful club and with the way they are playing it... MLS has missed a major market. Garber is looking too short term by not being able to negotiate the 40 mill franchise fee. We are not even talking about a sizable difference in negotiations when you consider the return MLS could have within a couple of years.

I think Seattle's season ticket sales have blinded the execs of MLS from considering anything short of major cash immediately. How sad it is.
+1.
Sucks for us, since it would've given the league a proper and real rival.

Fuck guys, get off your obsession with Gillett for a second and think about the actual details of the Montreal bid.

Yeah, we get it. Liverpool and all that. We're not talking about Liverpool!

Here's the way I look at it:

The Impact figured that given the fact their club is already playing professionally and has been marketed for years now to soccer fans in Quebec, he felt he should have been given a discount from MLS as so much of the groundwork has already been laid. Think about that for a second. There are cities in the running for teams with absolutely no level of existing public support, no existing brand recognition, and no facilities or staff already in place. Why shouldn't the Impact get a break off the expansion fee? They've already done most of the work that the league would normally do for a bid with no existing team.

I think Montreal got the shaft on this one.
I have to agree. Only time will tell who is right.
What makes me think that MLS f*cked up even more was that the Impact were willing to expand their stadium to 20k.
Even if they did nothing, they're still MUCH better off then KC. Playing in a a baseball stadium?!

troy1982
11-25-2008, 04:08 AM
Fuck guys, get off your obsession with Gillett for a second and think about the actual details of the Montreal bid.

Yeah, we get it. Liverpool and all that. We're not talking about Liverpool!

Here's the way I look at it:

The Impact figured that given the fact their club is already playing professionally and has been marketed for years now to soccer fans in Quebec, he felt he should have been given a discount from MLS as so much of the groundwork has already been laid. Think about that for a second. There are cities in the running for teams with absolutely no level of existing public support, no existing brand recognition, and no facilities or staff already in place. Why shouldn't the Impact get a break off the expansion fee? They've already done most of the work that the league would normally do for a bid with no existing team.

I think Montreal got the shaft on this one.

I am pretty sure MLS was clear with Joey that free was not negoatiable plus he could have joined MLS for 10 million 3 years ago but he said it was not worth it then aswell.

Cashcleaner
11-25-2008, 04:35 AM
^ Yes, MLS made the fee non-negotiable, but my point is that it should have been negotiable for all bidders.

The league is obviously going to have to spend more money to help create a club from scratch in a place like St. Louis than they would a city like Montreal that has most of its duck in a row as we speak. Should a discounted expansion fee be considered for a club that already has brand awareness and the facilities and staff in place prior to expansion? I certainly think so.

denime
11-25-2008, 07:09 AM
Knight: More from Montreal


Make of this press release what you will, soccer fans:
---
RECTIFICATION REGARDING MONTREAL'S BID FOR MAJOR LEAGUE SOCCER
Following MLS Commissioner Don Garber's statements regarding Montreal's bid, the Montreal partnership group would like to bring one important rectification:



Read more (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081123.WBsoccerblog20081123120240/WBStory/WBsoccerblog/)

Tintin
11-25-2008, 08:04 AM
What happens if the other temad ont want to pay the expansion fee as well due to the economic climate? Does the MLS come crawling back to Saputo?

Parkdale
11-25-2008, 08:26 AM
...if the other temad ont want to pay...

are you drunk?

Fort York Redcoat
11-25-2008, 08:32 AM
Montreal kicked MLS ass this year in a tournament that Garber had to degrade to save face. HE then doesn't even respond to Saputo's bid except to lie about in a press release. Now Joey calls him on it.

Yep. It looks like Montreal is gonna be in MLS...



...as soon as they win promotion.

Beach_Red
11-25-2008, 10:58 AM
Montreal kicked MLS ass this year in a tournament that Garber had to degrade to save face. HE then doesn't even respond to Saputo's bid except to lie about in a press release. Now Joey calls him on it.

Yep. It looks like Montreal is gonna be in MLS...



...as soon as they win promotion.

Why would you think Garber has any idea what went on in some tournament - that would mean actually following the sport.

This reminds me so much of Hamilton's NHL bid. They were realistic and up front about the money and their stadium. Ottawa said, sure, we'll give you the $50 million right now and the NHL owners said, fantastic.

Then when they were in the league they admitted they didn't actually have the money and needed to scramble, and the league went along with it.

You want to bet if MLS lets in 4 teams, two of them don't actually have the money.

Tintin
11-25-2008, 11:20 AM
are you drunk?


Noy yet!

Parkdale
11-25-2008, 11:25 AM
Noy yet!

you even make typos with an accent!

Oldtimer
11-25-2008, 11:37 AM
Look, any Canadian team is going to be at a disadvantage, because when a Canadian team plays, TV ratings will tank. Montreal only is a possibility because so much is in place, it makes up for that disadvantage. However, Joey has to understand that he cannot "double count" that advantage, it is only good enough to make up for the lost TV revenue, not also to get a discount on the expansion fee.

I expect that St. Louis and Miami will be in. You can also expect that they will be willing to pony up the full expansion fee.

Toronto Ruffrider
11-25-2008, 11:51 AM
I understand the TV ratings argument, but MLS is still a relative lightweight in that department. TV ratings are low on both sides of the border, and I doubt they will improve much even with US-only expansion.

Growing revenue streams is important in MLS, but I think the league should focus on selling tickets before it embarks on loftier endeavours. A lot of teams are giving away their tickets, and that is eroding the financial vitality of MLS as much as anything.

I hope Garber and co. are paying attention to potential ticket sales in prospective MLS cities. If a team can't sell tickets for $20, what makes Garber think people will want to watch it on TV?

Fort York Redcoat
11-25-2008, 11:57 AM
I understand the TV ratings argument, but MLS is still a relative lightweight in that department. TV ratings are low on both sides of the border, and I doubt they will improve much even with US-only expansion.

Growing revenue streams is important in MLS, but I think the league should focus on selling tickets before it embarks on loftier endeavours. A lot of teams are giving away their tickets, and that is eroding the financial vitality of MLS as much as anything.

I hope Garber and co. are paying attention to potential ticket sales in prospective MLS cities. If a team can't sell tickets for $20, what makes Garber think people will want to watch it on TV?

I totally agree Ruffy but this league is so entrenched in that business model I gotta back Oldtimer. Short term gain first. Then work on growing the game. If they get to it.

Parkdale
11-25-2008, 12:01 PM
Look, any Canadian team is going to be at a disadvantage, because when a Canadian team plays, TV ratings will tank.

not entirely true. Qubec watches content made in Quebec. They always have.
Just look at the success of films like 'Les Boys' (about old hockey guys).
Quebec will happily consume content that is made for them in French.

English Canada still gets the vast majority of it's content from the US.
There are exceptions like Corner Gas, but nothing has the numbers
of 'Grey's Anatomy' or 'CSI'. Yes, TV ratings in the US for a TFC-MTL
match would be in the shiter, but the ratings in Quebec would be HUGE!

Steve
11-25-2008, 12:13 PM
^ Yes, MLS made the fee non-negotiable, but my point is that it should have been negotiable for all bidders.

The league is obviously going to have to spend more money to help create a club from scratch in a place like St. Louis than they would a city like Montreal that has most of its duck in a row as we speak. Should a discounted expansion fee be considered for a club that already has brand awareness and the facilities and staff in place prior to expansion? I certainly think so.

Really? The league is going to spend money? Says who? How much money did the league contribute to TFC to get it off the ground from scratch?

The fact is, TFC, if anything, hurt the case of Montreal. MLSE bought an expansion, with no infrastructure in place (aside from the planned building of a SSS) and turned it into a gold mine. Given that, why should MLS give an advantage to Montreal? What do they bring to the table that others can't conceivably create in a short amount of time?

After reading that press release, I'm even less surprised they got the boot. Look at this statement:

"We nevertheless pooled our collective strengths and submitted a thorough, detailed bid which this time around, represented a total private investment of $45 M CDN. "

So, not only is $45M CDN not worth $40M USD, but that isn't even what they offered for the expansion fee! They offered to make a TOTAL investment of $45M, which INCLUDED the stadium upgrades. He lowballed MLS hugely, so I'm not surprised Garber came away a little pissed. When you have other proposals offering to pay the $40M PLUS invest another $100Mish on a stadium, why entertain an offer from an owner who thinks he can push the league around with his low dollar numbers and big ego?

Also, he's talking about keeping the game affordable, and growing the game in Quebec, and such. If he was talking like that around Garber ("Hey, look, as part of our plan we'll build an indoor soccer facility in Quebec, but of course that money would come off of the $45M we have allocated") are you really surprised he got rejected? Garber is trying to build a financially stable, and profitable league. His second priority (distant) is growing the game in the states. Do you really think he gives a fuck about the game in Quebec?

Saputo came into this deal like he was offering MLS a favour. After snubbing them for many years, he thinks he can finally just come around and offer them a half-assed deal, and get accepted. Sorry, either you pay up and show you're committed to the league (I think BMO needs a huge upgrade, Saputo is worse), or you have fun in the USL.

Oldtimer
11-25-2008, 12:29 PM
not entirely true. Qubec watches content made in Quebec. They always have.
Just look at the success of films like 'Les Boys' (about old hockey guys).
Quebec will happily consume content that is made for them in French.

English Canada still gets the vast majority of it's content from the US.
There are exceptions like Corner Gas, but nothing has the numbers
of 'Grey's Anatomy' or 'CSI'. Yes, TV ratings in the US for a TFC-MTL
match would be in the shiter, but the ratings in Quebec would be HUGE!

True that Quebec gets good ratings for home-grown product, however, MLS is looking at sponsorships, ad revenues, etc. Quebec is so tiny in that dept. compared to your average US market. No Canadian broadcaster has yet stepped up with a rights fee for MLS content, there is only a "revenue-sharing" with TFC.

Fort York Redcoat
11-25-2008, 12:33 PM
Could Montreal have Molson as a sponsor? Any bans on beer for sponsors in MLS like in France?

Beach_Red
11-25-2008, 01:53 PM
not entirely true. Qubec watches content made in Quebec. They always have.
Just look at the success of films like 'Les Boys' (about old hockey guys).
Quebec will happily consume content that is made for them in French.

English Canada still gets the vast majority of it's content from the US.
There are exceptions like Corner Gas, but nothing has the numbers
of 'Grey's Anatomy' or 'CSI'. Yes, TV ratings in the US for a TFC-MTL
match would be in the shiter, but the ratings in Quebec would be HUGE!

Maybe. The best comparison might be the CFL - what are Als-Argos ratings like? Or Als in general?

What were the TV ratings like for Montreal in the Champions League?

Blizzard
11-25-2008, 02:13 PM
Maybe. The best comparison might be the CFL - what are Als-Argos ratings like? Or Als in general?

What were the TV ratings like for Montreal in the Champions League?

Quebec numbers for the Als on RDS are superb!

Parkdale
11-25-2008, 02:15 PM
Ratings are way up and I think they've sold out over 70 games in a row or something like that.

Quebec gets behind their teams. You'd never hear the NFL is better then the CFL talk you hear in Toronto. Why? They don't have an NFL team so they really don't care about it. They do have a CFL team, so that's all they need.

Blizzard
11-25-2008, 02:17 PM
Really? The league is going to spend money? Says who? How much money did the league contribute to TFC to get it off the ground from scratch?

The fact is, TFC, if anything, hurt the case of Montreal. MLSE bought an expansion, with no infrastructure in place (aside from the planned building of a SSS) and turned it into a gold mine. Given that, why should MLS give an advantage to Montreal? What do they bring to the table that others can't conceivably create in a short amount of time?

After reading that press release, I'm even less surprised they got the boot. Look at this statement:

"We nevertheless pooled our collective strengths and submitted a thorough, detailed bid which this time around, represented a total private investment of $45 M CDN. "

So, not only is $45M CDN not worth $40M USD, but that isn't even what they offered for the expansion fee! They offered to make a TOTAL investment of $45M, which INCLUDED the stadium upgrades. He lowballed MLS hugely, so I'm not surprised Garber came away a little pissed. When you have other proposals offering to pay the $40M PLUS invest another $100Mish on a stadium, why entertain an offer from an owner who thinks he can push the league around with his low dollar numbers and big ego?

Also, he's talking about keeping the game affordable, and growing the game in Quebec, and such. If he was talking like that around Garber ("Hey, look, as part of our plan we'll build an indoor soccer facility in Quebec, but of course that money would come off of the $45M we have allocated") are you really surprised he got rejected? Garber is trying to build a financially stable, and profitable league. His second priority (distant) is growing the game in the states. Do you really think he gives a fuck about the game in Quebec?

Saputo came into this deal like he was offering MLS a favour. After snubbing them for many years, he thinks he can finally just come around and offer them a half-assed deal, and get accepted. Sorry, either you pay up and show you're committed to the league (I think BMO needs a huge upgrade, Saputo is worse), or you have fun in the USL.

Absolutely. It's almost like he engineered this situation so MLS would have to turn him down and he could then act like the wounded party when the reality is he tried to play MLS like chumps!

BTW, all this talk about Garber is a bit unfair. Garber is the commissioner but the board (the teams) run the league. He is an employee and figure head. The teams are the power and even if Garber sees how good a Toronto - Montreal rivalry can be, there's no way in the world the league would accept Saputo's joke of a bid!

.... and does Joey really believe his stadium his the envy of so many others? Hey Joey, it's a nice stadium but it is nowhere near what is required by MLS and if you don't see that, give your head a shake.

Blizzard
11-25-2008, 02:20 PM
Ratings are way up and I think they've sold out over 70 games in a row or something like that.

Quebec gets behind their teams. You'd never hear the NFL is better then the CFL talk you hear in Toronto. Why? They don't have an NFL team so they really don't care about it. They do have a CFL team, so that's all they need.

We'd never get 66k for a Grey Cup in Toronto (even if we had a big enough facility).

Of course, Rogers will be lucky if the Skydome sells out for the NFL in a couple of weeks. There are still thousands of tickets for sale and now Rogers staff are apparantly being offered really cheap tickets in an attempt to fill the place.

Beach_Red
11-25-2008, 02:27 PM
Ratings are way up and I think they've sold out over 70 games in a row or something like that.

Quebec gets behind their teams. You'd never hear the NFL is better then the CFL talk you hear in Toronto. Why? They don't have an NFL team so they really don't care about it. They do have a CFL team, so that's all they need.

That's good to hear. The Als went through some rough times, though. Hell, I went to some Concordes (http://www.sportslogos.net/team.php?id=109) games in the '80's. They still credit U2 with saving the team by booking Olympic Stadium on the same they had a surprise playoff game. Played it at Molson Stadium instead and, yeah, sold out every game since.

Football really grew at the grassroots level in Quebec over the last twenty years - and at CEGEPs and universities - Laval just won the Vanier cup AGAIN, and there's no reason why over the next twenty years the same can't happen with soccer.

But let me ask this. If there's never any talk in Montreal about the NFL and they support the CFL, why would they need to join the MLS - they can just stay in the USL and get support, can't they?

Fort York Redcoat
11-25-2008, 02:29 PM
That's good to hear. The Als went through some rough times, though. Hell, I went to some Concordes (http://www.sportslogos.net/team.php?id=109) games in the '80's. They still credit U2 with saving the team by booking Olympic Stadium on the same they had a surprise playoff game. Played it at Molson Stadium instead and, yeah, sold out every game since.

Football really grew at the grassroots level in Quebec over the last twenty years - and at CEGEPs and universities - Laval just won the Vanier cup AGAIN, and there's no reason why over the next twenty years the same can't happen with soccer.

But let me ask this. If there's never any talk in Montreal about the NFL and they support the CFL, why would they need to join the MLS - they can just stay in the USL and get support, can't they?

They'll soon find out. Montreal is now the last city that will get in MLS.

TicTacTabarnack
11-25-2008, 04:18 PM
Really? The league is going to spend money? Says who? How much money did the league contribute to TFC to get it off the ground from scratch?

The fact is, TFC, if anything, hurt the case of Montreal. MLSE bought an expansion, with no infrastructure in place (aside from the planned building of a SSS) and turned it into a gold mine. Given that, why should MLS give an advantage to Montreal? What do they bring to the table that others can't conceivably create in a short amount of time?

After reading that press release, I'm even less surprised they got the boot. Look at this statement:

"We nevertheless pooled our collective strengths and submitted a thorough, detailed bid which this time around, represented a total private investment of $45 M CDN. "

So, not only is $45M CDN not worth $40M USD, but that isn't even what they offered for the expansion fee! They offered to make a TOTAL investment of $45M, which INCLUDED the stadium upgrades. He lowballed MLS hugely, so I'm not surprised Garber came away a little pissed. When you have other proposals offering to pay the $40M PLUS invest another $100Mish on a stadium, why entertain an offer from an owner who thinks he can push the league around with his low dollar numbers and big ego?

Also, he's talking about keeping the game affordable, and growing the game in Quebec, and such. If he was talking like that around Garber ("Hey, look, as part of our plan we'll build an indoor soccer facility in Quebec, but of course that money would come off of the $45M we have allocated") are you really surprised he got rejected? Garber is trying to build a financially stable, and profitable league. His second priority (distant) is growing the game in the states. Do you really think he gives a fuck about the game in Quebec?

Saputo came into this deal like he was offering MLS a favour. After snubbing them for many years, he thinks he can finally just come around and offer them a half-assed deal, and get accepted. Sorry, either you pay up and show you're committed to the league (I think BMO needs a huge upgrade, Saputo is worse), or you have fun in the USL.

You make some good points... I just think that Saputo was bringing a lot to the table (Stadium, Infrastructure, Players, etc.) and MLS didn't even take that into consideration. i.e. Show me the money ... $40M USD ($49M CDN now). MLSE turning TFC into a Gold Mine definitely hurt the allure of the positives they were bringing to the table. I also don't think Saputo likes making speculative bets (i.e. What are the chances the Impact will be as big as TFC?) and the tanking CDN dollar didn't help.

Cashcleaner
11-26-2008, 03:22 AM
^ At the end of the day... if you were the commissioner what would be the the better option for you in terms of potential profitability? An MLS franchise in a town with an existing franchise with upgradable facilities, a 15-year history, and dedicated fanbase (Montreal); or an MLS franchise in a town that has either already had a top-flight franchise fold after a short history (Miami) or has has no pre-existing pro team (St. Louis).

Just taking into account the potential profitability, Montreal would be topping my list followed by Vancouver and Portland. I wouldn't accept Miami's bid unless it was actually put forward by the owners of Miami FC.

Redcoe15
11-26-2008, 10:14 AM
^ At the end of the day... if you were the commissioner what would be the the better option for you in terms of potential profitability? An MLS franchise in a town with an existing franchise with upgradable facilities, a 15-year history, and dedicated fanbase (Montreal); or an MLS franchise in a town that has either already had a top-flight franchise fold after a short history (Miami) or has has no pre-existing pro team (St. Louis).
St. Louis had a team in the old NASL from 1967-1977 as the St. Louis Stars.

Roogsy
11-26-2008, 10:16 AM
^ At the end of the day... if you were the commissioner what would be the the better option for you in terms of potential profitability? An MLS franchise in a town with an existing franchise with upgradable facilities, a 15-year history, and dedicated fanbase (Montreal); or an MLS franchise in a town that has either already had a top-flight franchise fold after a short history (Miami) or has has no pre-existing pro team (St. Louis).

Just taking into account the potential profitability, Montreal would be topping my list followed by Vancouver and Portland. I wouldn't accept Miami's bid unless it was actually put forward by the owners of Miami FC.


Right now they can't see beyond their noses....or in this case, the $40mill cheque they want regardless if the rest of the bid makes sense.

Parkdale
11-26-2008, 10:17 AM
St. Louis had a team in the old NASL from 1967-1977 as the St. Louis Stars.

that's over 30 years ago - he meant a 'currently existing pro-team'

I doubt anyone involved with that team would be involved with the current bid.

Steve
11-26-2008, 10:29 AM
^ At the end of the day... if you were the commissioner what would be the the better option for you in terms of potential profitability? An MLS franchise in a town with an existing franchise with upgradable facilities, a 15-year history, and dedicated fanbase (Montreal); or an MLS franchise in a town that has either already had a top-flight franchise fold after a short history (Miami) or has has no pre-existing pro team (St. Louis).

Just taking into account the potential profitability, Montreal would be topping my list followed by Vancouver and Portland. I wouldn't accept Miami's bid unless it was actually put forward by the owners of Miami FC.

You keep saying Montreal is the profitable choice, what made you come to that decision? Was it the fact that Saputo wants to spend jack all on his stadium? The fact that he refused to pay the expansion fee? The fact he continues to talk about "keeping soccer affordable to families"?

Which of these things screams "profit" to you? The $40M entry fee is a litmus test of sorts. It allows the league to figure out which owners are in it for the big money. By investing that much up front, you're obviously planning on working to ensure success. Saputo wasn't in it for the big money. He didn't believe he could pull in the kind of crowds/sales/etc that would make the $40M investment (plus his stadium-on-the-cheap deal) worthwhile. If Saputo doesn't think it would be worthwhile, why should MLS?

Redcoe15
11-26-2008, 01:00 PM
that's over 30 years ago - he meant a 'currently existing pro-team'
He said pre-existing team. That puts the St. Louis Stars in that category.

Knight: A vote for Saputo

Interesting little game Joey Saputo is playing.

As rumoured and expected, the Montreal Impact owner summoned the press to his sweet little stadium just off the Green Line Metro yesterday, to confirm that Major League Soccer bounced his bid for a 2011 expansion team.

Just so we all know, Saputo said:

“First: Montreal never at any point withdrew its bid from the process. We were rather informed that our bid was not retained.

“Second: The Montreal partnership never, at any point, had any trouble whatsoever financing its bid.

“Third: There was never any question of using public funds to finance this project.”

The real issue appears to be: what actually constitutes $40-million (U.S.), the league's current asking price

MORE (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081125.WBsoccerblog20081125115033/WBStory/WBsoccerblog)

Cashcleaner
11-27-2008, 01:12 AM
St. Louis had a team in the old NASL from 1967-1977 as the St. Louis Stars.

You wanna know something? I actually knew that and was going to make a clarification, but felt that as it was a team that existed 30 YEARS AGO, nobody would bring it up given the context of the discussion

You proved me wrong, Redcoe.