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jloome
11-21-2008, 08:59 PM
The league is switching from 18 to 20 senior players next season, getting rid of the reserve division completely, and allocating an as-yet unannounced portion of extra budget cash per team to attract higher-quality, experienced internationals, according to the Post's Steve Goff:

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/soccerinsider/

Whattya think folks, is this enough?

Ossington Mental Youth
11-21-2008, 09:05 PM
Its a start and a move in the right direction

Yohan
11-21-2008, 09:12 PM
So, where are the reserve players going to get match fitness?


*The league will give clubs the option of taking two weekends off or softening their schedule over a four-week stretch during the busy times next summer when international competitions are an issue.
Does the teams just tell the league that they want to reschedule whenever they want and play the match at the later date? How does this exactly work?

I like the new playoff format. Rewards season standings a bit more

SuperLiga is still a joke.

Ossington Mental Youth
11-21-2008, 09:20 PM
Superliga IS still a joke.
Itll disappear eventually as MLS teams will take it less and less seriously.
fans dont give a shit (especially with the CL, whichll get more and more viewing etc)
Also agree, new playoff format is great

jloome
11-21-2008, 09:23 PM
I actually LIKE Superliga, because frankly I think most of the Central Amercian and Carribean teams that get into the CCC aren't as strong as the average MLS or Mexican team (and I'm quite aware that htis year's MLS showing doesn't back that up, but that's for broader reasons than the basic point.)

The problem for me is that until the league starts giving the players real cash rewards for winning these contests (and taking substantial prize money. SuperLiga was $1 million this year), they won't want to take it seriously. $5,000 for winning your club $ 1million. Fuck, I'd be insulted, too.

rocker
11-21-2008, 09:24 PM
i'm not sure how this roster shift helps development though. It may help week-to-week quality since you can grab a couple more guys for the senior roster. but it means 2-4 guys on teams without jobs now.

Ossington Mental Youth
11-21-2008, 09:28 PM
I actually LIKE Superliga, because frankly I think most of the Central Amercian and Carribean teams that get into the CCC aren't as strong as the average MLS or Mexican team (and I'm quite aware that htis year's MLS showing doesn't back that up, but that's for broader reasons than the basic point.)

The problem for me is that until the league starts giving the players real cash rewards for winning these contests (and taking substantial prize money. SuperLiga was $1 million this year), they won't want to take it seriously. $5,000 for winning your club $ 1million. Fuck, I'd be insulted, too.


Not me, i think its a money grab.
I gotta say I agree with you about the carribean teams but thats part ofthe charm as I like to see diff styles/players/etc that i wouldnt see regularly. Also like to see how we compare with the rest of concacaaf

Ossington Mental Youth
11-21-2008, 09:38 PM
Just noticed they chopped the roster from 28 to 24 and didnt address the academy dilemma.
What kind of shit is that?

rocker
11-21-2008, 09:43 PM
Garber basically removed 4 positions that could have been worth 17K each (68K) and then added 2 senior spots, which have a minimum salary of about 35K each (70K). so the whole equation comes out revenue neutral. and he saved money by eliminating the reserve division -- no more sending the reserve team (with some non-roster players) off to some city.. and no more flights for some extra players.

Ossington Mental Youth
11-21-2008, 09:44 PM
curious to see how this works out.
Im trying to do it in my head (its not making sense, also im a bit drunk)

MUFC_Niagara
11-21-2008, 09:44 PM
The league will give clubs the option of taking two weekends off or softening their schedule over a four-week stretch during the busy times next summer when international competitions are an issue.

This is a step in the right direction but still not enough...

Ossington Mental Youth
11-21-2008, 09:47 PM
yeah, its gonna be like that for a bit, baby steps

DigzTFC!
11-21-2008, 10:06 PM
I think its great. Now we can have decent players on the bench. I would like for them to raise the minimum salary though. It also makes it more competitive of higher level players competing for playing time.

Come to think of it, the 8 rounds of draft is absolutely pointless now. None of those kids are going to make the roster unless they are GAs or amazing seniors. There are so many late round guys that won't make MLS rosters anymore. Like Steven Lenhart or Geoff Cameron, Omar Cummings orAdam Cristman. They may as well cut it down to two rounds like the NBA

Oldtimer
11-21-2008, 10:41 PM
Come to think of it, the 8 rounds of draft is absolutely pointless now. None of those kids are going to make the roster unless they are GAs or amazing seniors.

Which means that Mo's dealing this last season came out on top again because he traded supplemental picks which are becoming essentially worthless for real players.

Nazzer
11-22-2008, 12:29 AM
It seems like one step forward and two steps back. Yes they need to increase the senior roster, but dear god your handicapping your future by having only 4 developmental spots and no reserve team games.

Thats six less decent players per team, those players will just end up in USL, MLS effectively just gave their competition a direct boost in player pool.

VPjr
11-22-2008, 12:39 AM
the quote from Garber's state of the union speech that intrigues me most is:

MLS has decided that it will be more efficient to cease operation of the Reserve Division and to divert funds from its operations to more directed programs such as a bolstered senior roster, increased commitment to the Generation adidas program and focused initiatives to provide leading prospects with game experience, whether in MLS or elsewhere

I am very curious to see how this plays out. Where will leading prospects get the chance to acquire game experience? Does this open the door to MLS teams being allowed to organize "farm clubs" whereby DEV roster players can shuttle freely back and forth between the senior team and this "other" team?

rocker
11-22-2008, 12:41 AM
maybe it means encouraging loans to the USL. TFC could loan some guys to Rochester or something.. then that in essence becomes farm teams.

troy1982
11-22-2008, 12:53 AM
It seems like one step forward and two steps back. Yes they need to increase the senior roster, but dear god your handicapping your future by having only 4 developmental spots and no reserve team games.

Thats six less decent players per team, those players will just end up in USL, MLS effectively just gave their competition a direct boost in player pool.


well MLS will have 4 more teams in the next 3 years that's 96 spots to be filled.
Plus MLS isn't worried about the USL, they have just lost 2 teams for the next season. and depending on expansion may lose 2 more.

Toronto Ruffrider
11-22-2008, 01:42 AM
I hope the USL bounces back from its loss of teams. MLS may be in the spotlight more, but I like a lot of the USL's rules and regulations, especially the ones that pertain to roster size and player development. MLS would do well to increase roster sizes and allow teams to sign more academy players to GA contracts. I'm getting a little tired of how "American" the structure of MLS is as a sports league.

UltraSuperMegaMo
11-22-2008, 02:53 AM
I am very curious to see how this plays out. Where will leading prospects get the chance to acquire game experience? Does this open the door to MLS teams being allowed to organize "farm clubs" whereby DEV roster players can shuttle freely back and forth between the senior team and this "other" team?

In an interview with Gary Kaplan (the CSL commish) on the Soccer Show he kind of hinted that TFC would be operating more of a reserve team than an academy team in the CSL next year.

Cashcleaner
11-22-2008, 07:57 AM
Man, they really gotta scrap SuperLiga. I mean, its redundant now that we've got the CONCACAF Champions League. As we've heard, however, the league isn't all that keen on the Champions League because they don't have much control over it - a pretty lousy attitude if you ask me. For the Dev. spots, I don't its a good idea to have only 4 players allocated thusly and the loss of the reserve matches is disconcerting.

People are saying that the recent changes are steps in the right direction, and I do agree to a point, but at the end of the day we still have teams hindered by a ridiculous cap and a myriad of roster restrictions that requires a coach with a 4-year law or business degree to understand. as rocker pointed out, some of the changes smack as nothing more than cost-cutting actions more than anything else. I'm not saying that's totally a bad thing, but let's call a spade a spade, shall we?

The argument I have towards the league's structure and operating practises is that we have far too much bureaucracy that is needed. Garber and the MLS brass have to adopt the KISS principles - Keep It Simple, Stupid.

Let's have clubs operate with at least a 22-man senior roster, play each other home and away, adopt a single-table format, make both American and Canadian players count as domestics, get rid of the Generation Adidas allocations, and change the format of the playoffs to something more akin to the FA cup.

It's really all a lot more complicated than it has to be.

Ossington Mental Youth
11-22-2008, 10:14 AM
now that im sober, its starting to make sense.
Basically its a precaution against running out of players (because of the fact that there will be 4 new expansion teams in the near future). However they really arent considering the fact that the USL may pick up said players. We are sorta in luck as we will be producing canadian players so alot of those US teams will look at those guys after they take a look at all the americans available. That being said we are going to be feeding other canadian teams, our opponents.

DigzTFC!
11-22-2008, 10:51 AM
MLS needs a reserve division or farm team. How the fuck do they plan to develop players? Playing playing the best in the academy players against inferior sides all the time. A strategic option for USL could be to become the farm team for MLS. Sad, but true.

rocker
11-22-2008, 12:20 PM
However they really arent considering the fact that the USL may pick up said players.

Maybe... I'm not so sure tho... why don't guys like Lombardo and Hemming choose to play in the USL? I'm not sure that these guys who lose jobs next year will immediately go down to the USL. They might go to some shit division in Europe; they might choose to hang on with the new expansion teams in the pipeline. Also, with the upgrade in senior rosters to 20, teams could conceivably sign USL players (tho probably not).

mighty_torontofc_2008
11-22-2008, 12:39 PM
o will miss the reserve league games, maybe TFC wil bring in an acadmey game after the first game to make up for it.

DigzTFC!
11-22-2008, 12:53 PM
Say goodbye to Gaudet, Elkinson, Joe Melo, Tyler Rosenlund, maybe even Gala. Most of these guys would not go on to play for the CMNT anyways.

Mo will fill the developmental slots up with GAs. Attakora-Gyan will probably be the only one to survive the new roster restrictions.

Only young Canadians with pro-experience will make the senior squad. Guys returning from europe, unless they are an O'Brian White type or a GA.

I guess now TFC can offer real contracts to players like Marcus Haber when they get cut or a Lensky if her returns to soccer. These are players that could potentially go one to our national team.

rocker
11-22-2008, 01:13 PM
Say goodbye to Gaudet, Elkinson, Joe Melo, Tyler Rosenlund, maybe even Gala. Most of these guys would not go on to play for the CMNT anyways.

I can still see most of these around if TFC wants them.

including all those players you listed, TFC had only 25 guys on the roster at the end of the season (if you don't count Tim Regan). So TFC could keep the exact same roster as last season if they dumped 1 guy, like Elkinson.

If the cap doesn't go up enough, it's gonna be hard anyways to use those 2 extra senior spots on big time players. So a guy like Rosenlund might luck out and get a senior spot at 35K.
In a sense, the change might allow TFC to keep some of those better DEV guys by not having to give them 17K.

jloome
11-22-2008, 02:00 PM
Say goodbye to Gaudet, Elkinson, Joe Melo, Tyler Rosenlund, maybe even Gala. Most of these guys would not go on to play for the CMNT anyways.

Mo will fill the developmental slots up with GAs. Attakora-Gyan will probably be the only one to survive the new roster restrictions.

Only young Canadians with pro-experience will make the senior squad. Guys returning from europe, unless they are an O'Brian White type or a GA.

I guess now TFC can offer real contracts to players like Marcus Haber when they get cut or a Lensky if her returns to soccer. These are players that could potentially go one to our national team.

Not sure they can do that with the Canadian roster restrictions. What's the rule on that again? And I don't think Rosenlund or Gala would get the cut; both have played quite well for the team already.

DigzTFC!
11-22-2008, 02:44 PM
With all the allocation we have, I would look to see Mo fill the dv spots with GAs in the draft and keep one dv player now Gala maybe with Gyan going full senior. Then filling the extra spots with Canadian Players not our current developmental roster.

Examples:

Serioux, Nsaliwa, Marcus Haber...or guys like Will Johson returning after being cut.

Also, I'd like for TFC to create an U-23 team in the USL system

jloome
11-22-2008, 04:11 PM
With all the allocation we have, I would look to see Mo fill the dv spots with GAs in the draft and keep one dv player now Gala maybe with Gyan going full senior. Then filling the extra spots with Canadian Players not our current developmental roster.

Examples:

Serioux, Nsaliwa, Marcus Haber...or guys like Will Johson returning after being cut.

Also, I'd like for TFC to create an U-23 team in the USL system

I assume Johnson was a broad example, given that he started every game after arriving at Salt Lake, was a key player in their playoff run and is only costing them $52,000 a year.

DigzTFC!
11-22-2008, 04:55 PM
I assume Johnson was a broad example, given that he started every game after arriving at Salt Lake, was a key player in their playoff run and is only costing them $52,000 a year.

Yes it was an example....I know I haven't been as active on the boards for the last couple of months, but he just won goal of the year. Lets not start getting condescending shall we.

Some other examples:

Defenders:
Marcus Haber (89) Unattached
Nik Giannota (89) Unattached

Midfielders:
Michael Nonni (89) Unattached
Kyle Bekker (90) Unattached

Other guys on contract that I would look at:
Vladimir Vukovic, Justin Isidro or Thomas Kargo (What happened to this guy?)

James17930
11-22-2008, 09:48 PM
I actually LIKE Superliga, because frankly I think most of the Central Amercian and Carribean teams that get into the CCC aren't as strong as the average MLS or Mexican team (and I'm quite aware that htis year's MLS showing doesn't back that up, but that's for broader reasons than the basic point.)

The problem for me is that until the league starts giving the players real cash rewards for winning these contests (and taking substantial prize money. SuperLiga was $1 million this year), they won't want to take it seriously. $5,000 for winning your club $ 1million. Fuck, I'd be insulted, too.

Me too, and this is exactly what I thought they should do -- have the top four teams in the CCL and the next four teams in the SL. I think it may be a little slow to catch on at first, but eventually everyone will see the benefit of having two international competitions like this and spreading them around between as many teams as possible.

Hell, SuperLiga could even be expanded to 5 or 6 MLS and Mex. teams apiece.

I think it's going to be great.

VPjr
11-22-2008, 09:51 PM
DIGZTFC...All the guys you are suggesting above would be prime candidates for DEV roster spots, which we have fewer of now. I don't think most of those guys are in a position to contribute to an MLS team's 16-18 man roster at this time. If they are added to the DEV roster, some guys currently on that roster would need to be released.

I am really keen to see what happens with the TFC-A team in CSL. I have no idea what MLSE is and isn't allowed to do when it comes to creating a "farm club" but its conceivable that certain DEV players now could be permanently assigned to the CSL squad and paid salaries directly by MLSE (rather than by MLS), thereby opening up DEV spots for players who are more likely to have an impact on the roster than players like Elkinson, who I can't see contributing any time soon.

I'm just hypothesizing here but it does seem somewhat plausible.

mlsintoronto...I know you might be serverely limited by what you can and what you can't say right now but if you would be able to shed any light on this whatsoever, it would be great. I will say this: if TFC were permitted to establish a farm club outside MLS (playing in CSL, for instance), i for one would be stop complaining that there are no proper player development mechanisms in the MLS universe. TFC would actually be able to really become a "player" when it comes to player development and Mo and Jc might start giving more young Canadian players a chance to develop under the watchful eye of TFC coaches without impacting the salary cap or screwing around with precious roster spots (and they will definitely be alot more precious this year). Paul, I hope you are able to say something...if not now, maybe you can give us an idea of when you might be able to shed more light on this

nascarguy
11-22-2008, 10:10 PM
move this to the mls forum

DigzTFC!
11-22-2008, 10:13 PM
Well, I think the new rules would allow for these returning developmental players to have real salaries. Hence, why none of these guys considered TFC to begin with. 17K is ridiculous. Now that we can pay 30-60K base....lets open the negotiations. Top young players can be offered good salaries and can stay in their own country on the senior team. The remaining developmental spots will most likely be used by GAs or on academy players that are graduated to the GA program.

VPjr
11-22-2008, 11:18 PM
^ i agree with you in principle but I don't think the players you are talking about are the types that TFC is going to spend 30-40K per year on.

If a player is going to be placed on the senior roster, that player will need to be able to contribute. The whole reason for having a max of 20 senior roster players is because the MLS recognized that an 18 man senior roster is far too skinny for most teams, especially when they start suffering fixture congestion.

what I don't understand is what type of player can be considered for GA status.

Could a current Canadian U20 player currently toiling in Europe possibly be lured back to North America on a GA deal? I can tell you that most of them won't come home for 30-40K. They can get that in a 2nd division. At the end of the day, a soccer career is short so you've got make your money when you can.

jloome
11-23-2008, 12:23 AM
^ i agree with you in principle but I don't think the players you are talking about are the types that TFC is going to spend 30-40K per year on.

If a player is going to be placed on the senior roster, that player will need to be able to contribute. The whole reason for having a max of 20 senior roster players is because the MLS recognized that an 18 man senior roster is far too skinny for most teams, especially when they start suffering fixture congestion.

what I don't understand is what type of player can be considered for GA status.

Could a current Canadian U20 player currently toiling in Europe possibly be lured back to North America on a GA deal? I can tell you that most of them won't come home for 30-40K. They can get that in a 2nd division. At the end of the day, a soccer career is short so you've got make your money when you can.

More likely it'll be young players from here who have an opportunity now to start professionally at home, before inevitably going overseas anyway....as it has always been. We still need a cap increase to recruit youth from Europe at any decent level.

VPjr
11-23-2008, 12:33 AM
More likely it'll be young players from here who have an opportunity now to start professionally at home, before inevitably going overseas anyway....as it has always been. We still need a cap increase to recruit youth from Europe at any decent level.

I agree that it will likely be that way but I'm asking if there are rules the pre-clude MLS from offering a GA contract to a very young North American player who is currently overseas to lure them into MLS.

Are Canadian players eligible for a GA contract? For example, Sean Rosa (a Canadian U20 formerly with Metz in France) is now playing soccer at Brown University. Could he be offered a a GA contract to lure him out of college early if he was deemed good enough or is this a program solely for American players?

DigzTFC!
11-23-2008, 12:52 AM
Are Canadian players eligible for a GA contract?

From what I understand, there isn't a clear answer to this. It was asked a last year as well. From what the rules say, the GA is meant for American players only, but then again they tried to sign O'Brian White last year. But I think he may have American, Canadian and Jamaican citizenship.

James17930
11-23-2008, 06:18 AM
Remember, though, the problem was that a Dev. player could only play a certain number of games before they automatically had to be added to the senior roster -- this prevented Dev. players from playing in anything but reserve games, because there just wouldn't be room for them on the senior roster.

Now that there are 24 senior players, a coach can play whomever he wants whenever he wants and it doesn't matter. This should actually get the young guys more playing time.

nascarguy
11-23-2008, 09:48 AM
move this to the mls forum

kshep
11-23-2008, 09:56 AM
What's stopping the club from buying into USL 1 and using that as a reserve/player development team for the big club?

VPjr
11-23-2008, 10:20 AM
Remember, though, the problem was that a Dev. player could only play a certain number of games before they automatically had to be added to the senior roster -- this prevented Dev. players from playing in anything but reserve games, because there just wouldn't be room for them on the senior roster.


this is true and a good point



Now that there are 24 senior players, a coach can play whomever he wants whenever he wants and it doesn't matter. This should actually get the young guys more playing time


this is not true....there will be a maximum of 20 senior roster players and 4 DEV roster players (who will have nowhere to play, as it stands right now, because the Reserve league has folded)

Do GA players automatically get placed on the DEV roster?

rocker
11-23-2008, 12:41 PM
move this to the mls forum

are you on drugs?
wait.. I know the answer..

i think these roster rules relate to Toronto FC...

Hitcho
11-24-2008, 09:48 AM
KEY POINT OF NOTE - the scheduling is now basically a league system (home and home with each of the other 14 clubs plus two local rival games). Once another team is added, it'll be home and home with each club and we have, finally, a real league!

:D:D:D

SLBuu
11-24-2008, 09:59 AM
KEY POINT OF NOTE - the scheduling is now basically a league system (home and home with each of the other 14 clubs plus two local rival games). Once another team is added, it'll be home and home with each club and we have, finally, a real league!

:D:D:D

YEAH! i noticed that too..... it seems the only reason for conferences now are purely for playoff berths.

Velvet Elvis
11-24-2008, 11:21 AM
So, where are the reserve players going to get match fitness?


As others have said ... how are the younger players going to get the match experience they will need to stay fit and develop?

Training only does so much, you need to play regularly and competitively.