Montreal "drops" MLS bid

[TFC 420]

http://www.mlsrumors.net/

It was said during Don Garber's State of the League address tonight.

[flatpicker]

:eek:

NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

I was so looking forward to this rivalry!!!

Guess we have to settle for the Canadian Championship... but man! This news stinks!

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k139/brushstroke-man/impact.jpg

[rocker]

holy shit.

i was hoping they'd get in so we could beat them more.

i know some people are talking up the USL, but i still think in the longterm the MLS will be the #1 league, all the good USL teams will leave to MLS, and Montreal will be stuck.
Sure, they are doing well in the Champions League, but they ain't gonna do that every season.

[Redcoe15]

Something is terribly wrong here when Montreal drops out of the running yet Miami is considered by some so called experts the front runner. Oh well, I'm sure the America first soccer crowd, who don't want TFC or any other Canadian cities in "their league", will be popping the champagne corks in celebration tonight. :mad:

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Wow, brutal.
Thats totally ridiculous and unfortunate.

[jloome]

I'm sure Montreal's decision had something to do with the fact that USL may, in three or five years, have more credibility and support than MLS, unless our league makes some changes to how their scheduling, roster and cap structure works.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Its gonna be two US teams for sure.
Maybe Vancouver later on.
Brutal

[rocker]

well Vancouver's chances just went up. Maybe they'd be the perfect buddy for Seattle, while giving TFC a Canadian friend.
I still think Ottawa has little chance.. but could you imagine if MLS decided the third Canadian team in the league would be Ottawa?? hahah

[rocker]

I'm sure Montreal's decision had something to do with the fact that USL may, in three or five years, have more credibility and support than MLS, .

I don't see how that would happen. Even with MLS's problems, the USL is still not as popular. The USL just lost a team (Atlanta) and could potentially lose Vancouver and Portland and Miami... the attendance levels for the USL right now are weak compared to MLS (except for Montreal). If the USL goes from 5000 per game average to MLS's 15000 in three or four years I'd be shocked.

maybe Montreal wants to be a big fish in a little pond.

[RealG-TFC]

I TOTALLY SAW THAT COMING!


I'm proud, I want a cookie!

[Yohan]

Mtl might regret this, when TFC gets its act together and be the one to get into CCL.

I think Mtl might be thinking with their success of CCL they don't need MLS, but that's just short term talking.

Of course, Garber might be giving Mtl a hardtime for whatever reason...

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Mtl might regret this, when TFC gets its act together and be the one to get into CCL.

I think Mtl might be thinking with their success of CCL they don't need MLS, but that's just short term talking.

Of course, Garber might be giving Mtl a hardtime for whatever reason...

its that coupled with Gillettes financial probs

[nfitz]

Oh well. If Montreal and Vancouver joins MLS we'd get to play them twice a year. If Montreal doesn't join MLS we get to play them twice a year.

[RealG-TFC]

Vancouver is totally getting in.

[Beach_Red]

I'm sure Montreal's decision had something to do with the fact that USL may, in three or five years, have more credibility and support than MLS, unless our league makes some changes to how their scheduling, roster and cap structure works.

These things seem so easy to fix, though. How will the USL compete with a league that has teams in NY, LA, Chicago, DC, Dallas - all the big markets? I understand Rochester is great place to see a soccer game, but really?

I'm sure Montreal's decision had something to do with forty million bucks - MLS may be worth that someday, but it sure isn't now.

[MEU]

WOW! I mean WOW!!!... If true.

I was really hoping to go to "la belle provence" on a regular basis. Je devrais depenser mon argent quleque part d'autre.

[andyc]

its that coupled with Gillettes financial probs

I think that this is the real reason. He's got a big problem with Liverpool right now, he doesn't need more grief...

[jloome]

These things seem so easy to fix, though. How will the USL compete with a league that has teams in NY, LA, Chicago, DC, Dallas - all the big markets? I understand Rochester is great place to see a soccer game, but really?

I'm sure Montreal's decision had something to do with forty million bucks - MLS may be worth that someday, but it sure isn't now.

By A) Beating the bigger league for a couple of years, to gain notoriety and then b) following numerous other pro sports in north American (including both the NFL and NBA) and starting a competing league in the same cities.

Why should Montreal give MLS $40 million if it expects to be playing USL teams, with a couple of years of winning tradition, in New York, LA and Chicago?

After all, without charging the ridiculous franchise fee that MLS is charging, they can attract initial investors whose money can go into small-but-profitable SSS's of their own (which do great rental business, when they're not being used by pro teams.)

Yep, I'd bet within five years you'll see USL expand and try to take MLS on aggressively. It makes sense; from an Economic, structural and competitive standpoint, their league is more sensibly run. It just didn't have the upfront glitz of the world cup association and the big corporate money.

[Beach_Red]

By A) Beating the bigger league for a couple of years, to gain notoriety and then b) following numerous other pro sports in north American (including both the NFL and NBA) and starting a competing league in the same cities.

Why should Montreal give MLS $40 million if it expects to be playing USL teams, with a couple of years of winning tradition, in New York, LA and Chicago?

After all, without charging the ridiculous franchise fee that MLS is charging, they can attract initial investors whose money can go into small-but-profitable SSS's of their own (which do great rental business, when they're not being used by pro teams.)

Yep, I'd bet within five years you'll see USL expand and try to take MLS on aggressively. It makes sense; from an Economic, structural and competitive standpoint, their league is more sensibly run. It just didn't have the upfront glitz of the world cup association and the big corporate money.

I hope you're right about USL taking on MLS aggressively - it would be rough for a while but it could work out great. In fact, the NFL, NBA, NHL and Major League Baseball are all the result of competing leagues that merged. It's a North American tradition!

[Ossington Mental Youth]

HAHAHA
Wouldnt hate on it (provided it turns out the way i picture it in my head)

[Redcoe15]

its that coupled with Gillettes financial probs
Saputo was the one fronting the bid. He's among the richest men in Canada. He could have gone this alone, if he wanted to. I suspect something else is at play here.

[DigzTFC!]

Jloome, your theory would work accept for one big issue. The best USL markets are being absorbed by MLS: Seattle gone, Vancouver and Portland will be gone....how many teams are going to be in the USL in 5 years? Altanta folded. If Miami gets in their USL team will be gone. Its getting pretty grime for the USL. What makes this worse is that MLS was suppose to promote soccer not destroy it in the US.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Ignoring jloome's comment once again, that totally sucks. I have heard that Gillette is trying to sell Liverpool though, so this was inevitable.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Saputo was the one fronting the bid. He's among the richest men in Canada. He could have gone this alone, if he wanted to. I suspect something else is at play here.


absolutely, he could have carried it himself if he had so chosen, so it makes things even more interesting...

[GeorgeB]

maybe montreal is fast tracked and takes Philly's spot ? therefore no need for a expansion bid.there was a rumour of this happening.

[Redcoe15]

It'll be interesting to watch soccercentral tomorrow to hear what Gerry and Craig have to say about this. Both were pimping the Montreal bid saying it was a shoo-in.

[jloome]

Jloome, your theory would work accept for one big issue. The best USL markets are being absorbed by MLS: Seattle gone, Vancouver and Portland will be gone....how many teams are going to be in the USL in 5 years? Altanta folded. If Miami gets in their USL team will be gone. Its getting pretty grime for the USL. What makes this worse is that MLS was suppose to promote soccer not destroy it in the US.

Yeah, they are right now. But USL has been around for decades in one form or another; they're not going to sweat losing a club in Seattle now if they're looking to compete three to five years down the road.

[jloome]

Ignoring jloome's comment once again, that totally sucks. I have heard that Gillette is trying to sell Liverpool though, so this was inevitable.

How on earth does Gillette selling out -- under extreme duress from the fans -- in Liverpool equate to him not investing in soccer here?

There might be an economic argument, as the debt level at Liverpool is considerable; but between's Saputo's considerable financial muscle and Gillette's own wealth, MLS would be an easy investment for them.

So grab a fucking point before you criticize other people's posts, okay dim-wit?

[Canary Canuck]

USL are adding the Austin Astex next year and the Tampa Bay Rowdies the year after.

[Captain Croatia]

boo!

i wanted those frenchies to come here more often with their garbage bag banners.

[dcdcdc]

the impact already have next year completely sold out. Their games are all televised. Why pay 40 million dollars when you dont need to?

[Lucky Strike]

This blows...

[Azerban]

So grab a fucking point before you criticize other people's posts, okay dim-wit?

This coming from the guy who says USL is going to be competing head on with MLS in a couple years. Hmm, maybe the time to do that was 7 or 8 years ago, not when MLS is literally the strongest it's ever been ever.

[andyc]

How on earth does Gillette selling out -- under extreme duress from the fans -- in Liverpool equate to him not investing in soccer here?

There might be an economic argument, as the debt level at Liverpool is considerable; but between's Saputo's considerable financial muscle and Gillette's own wealth, MLS would be an easy investment for them.



Gillette wasn't under pressure from the fans anymore - That was Ashley at Newcastle. Gillette's problem is a 350 million pound debt that he needs to refinance by the end of the year and the banks are not looking to help right now. Plus he has a new stadium to build.

Just because these guys have loads of money we shouldn't understimate the impact that the financial crash has had on them. Where financing used to be easy to come by, this isn't true anymore....

I'm sure with Gillettes issues and the general market conditions Saputo must have thought why should I stick my neck out to deliver a $US40m investment... Especially with the current exchange rate...

[Redcoe15]

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2008/11/21/mls-montreal-expansion.html

According to the above story, Garber give his reasons why Montreal pulled out:



Garber said Montreal's delegation informed him within the past week of possible trouble.
"Montreal has had to evaluate what kinds of private capital they needed to refinance their stadium to fund the expansion fee, and what kind of public support would be available," Garber said.
"I'm not sure they were able to come to terms in this economic environment."

[Flipityflu]

also noted they are getting rid of the reserve division. sucks for Montreal. i hope they can put another bid together in the future.

[Blizzard]

Mtl might regret this, when TFC gets its act together and be the one to get into CCL.

I think Mtl might be thinking with their success of CCL they don't need MLS, but that's just short term talking.

Of course, Garber might be giving Mtl a hardtime for whatever reason...

Nah. Joey just doesn't want to put up the $40 million most likely.

[VPjr]

Nah. Joey just doesn't want to put up the $40 million most likely.

Joey didn't want to fork out the $40 million for the club, plus $10-15 million (minimum) to upgrade the stadium.

who know what other costs would need to be incurred (including higher payroll)

Remember, even though the Impact get a pretty good turnout at most games, everyone knows that ALOT of those tickets are giveaways to local soccer clubs through the Quebec Soccer Federation.

That becomes financially taxing when you are dealing with MLS level cost structures.

[Nodoubtguy]

that sucks......wish they would have gotten it for sure.....guess we still got one game down there.

[Vindaloo]

Garber said Vancouver's presentation was "one of the best I've ever seen, and I was involved in sports expansion in [the NFL]."

Vancouver's in now for sure.

[Cashcleaner]

I'm going to be honest, but in the back of my mind I had a feeling this might happen. I actually thought Montreal was just going to not submit an official bid, though. Not place a bid then back out afterwards.

I'm afraid I agree with jloome's explanation. It makes sense to me when you figure how well the team can play and how many support it while it's playing in a second-tier league. MLS certainly wasn't responsible for getting the team as far as it is in CONCACAF. Maybe Saputo and Gillett came to the conclusion that they'll make more money where they are now. Perhaps they estimated that they would not have gotten a better return on an MLS franchise than on the current USL one.

When you think about it, 40 million is quite steep as a franchise fee goes - given what you're receiving as an owner, of course.

That's just my shot in the dark about Montreal, though. I'm sure we'll get all sorts of opinions about it as things develop. Obviously, I'm FUCKING GUTTED. I mean, just looking at it from a Supporter's perspective. Firstly, Montreal is Toronto's cultural and civic rival and it was obvious to me that we would have created the best rivalry in the league from that fact alone. Secondly, it would have been one away trip that didn't take 8 hours and a border crossing to get to. For a few of us that means quite a bit. Lastly, it would have been yet another arrow in the chect for guys like Bill Archer and the other ultra-nationalist xenophobes who actually have a problem with Canadian teams playing (and selling out) in an American-based league.

I can't say I'm totally shocked by the news, but I'm still very disappointed.

Also, Garber has to stop talking about how markets in Canada can take potential business away from cities in the US. It took 20,000 Torontonian assholes like myself to show the rest of the league how to properly support their teams and you can see now that only after two years a lot has changed in stadiums all over the states. I know we're often critisied for self-fellation, but what other team in MLS can boast of our sizable home crowds and respectable away contingents.

[Keystone FC]

I'm going to be honest, but in the back of my mind I had a feeling this might happen. I actually thought Montreal was just going to not submit an official bid, though. Not place a bid then back out afterwards.

I'm afraid I agree with jloome's explanation. It makes sense to me when you figure how well the team can play and how many support it while it's playing in a second-tier league. MLS certainly wasn't responsible for getting the team as far as it is in CONCACAF. Maybe Saputo and Gillett came to the conclusion that they'll make more money where they are now. Perhaps they estimated that they would not have gotten a better return on an MLS franchise than on the current USL one.

When you think about it, 40 million is quite steep as a franchise fee goes - given what you're receiving as an owner, of course.

That's just my shot in the dark about Montreal, though. I'm sure we'll get all sorts of opinions about it as things develop. Obviously, I'm FUCKING GUTTED. I mean, just looking at it from a Supporter's perspective. Firstly, Montreal is Toronto's cultural and civic rival and it was obvious to me that we would have created the best rivalry in the league from that fact alone. Secondly, it would have been one away trip that didn't take 8 hours and a border crossing to get to. For a few of us that means quite a bit. Lastly, it would have been yet another arrow in the chect for guys like Bill Archer and the other ultra-nationalist xenophobes who actually have a problem with Canadian teams playing (and selling out) in an American-based league.

I can't say I'm totally shocked by the news, but I'm still very disappointed.

Also, Garber has to stop talking about how markets in Canada can take potential business away from cities in the US. It took 20,000 Torontonian assholes like myself to show the rest of the league how to properly support their teams and you can see now that only after two years a lot has changed in stadiums all over the states. I know we're often critisied for self-fellation, but what other team in MLS can boast of our sizable home crowds and respectable away contingents.

I totally agree with you Cash on your points. Garber was gushing on how the Ottawa bid blew him away and how it was very focused on how they would build a soccer culture in Ottawa and the development of the SSS. The Vancouver bid was the best he had ever seen but then goes on to say that more Canadian teams means less development for us players and takes away from sponsorships and growing the sport in the States.
I'm sorry but those excuses don't fly. If the product is good it will sell REGUARDLESS it's location.
Like you said another Canadian club just gives US soccer fans more reason to come out and root against a Vancouver or Ottawa club. As long as the bid is good, the owners have cash, and the fans are in place....what's the problem?

[Cashcleaner]

^ Yeah, I actually just mentioned that in another thread a few minutes ago. The recent interview with the President of Operations indicated to me that Ottawa has really put on a good presentation for them. Obviously, Garber's talk of the plan has been good as well.

I'm a bit torn on the issue of Ottawa v. Montreal to be honest. The thing is that I really like Ottawa as a place to visit and have some family and friends over there. Road trips would be even shorter for us and I think we have to give some credit where its due - its a nice town in which we would have some good times visiting for soccer.

Of course, Montreal was always my Number 1 choice for a regional rival and I am a little let down now that they aren't considering MLS at the moment. I just don't think that we should look down at Ottawa or Vancouver - for that matter, just because they weren't our first choices.

[king dave]

If this is true. Good.
Mount fucking Royal should join her sister city in the U.fuckinS.
Columbus.
Now I look forward to my trip to Rochester to see the Rhinos pumel these 'oh we are a world class city' stools.
The sooner these guys seperate from this great nation, the better.
KD.

[trane]

I'm sure Montreal's decision had something to do with the fact that USL may, in three or five years, have more credibility and support than MLS, unless our league makes some changes to how their scheduling, roster and cap structure works.


I gleaned this from Garber's interview. If you remember the part about, how Montreal thinks that making the Champions league a big deal, and the MLS does not see it as important. I new it that Montreal has second thoughts along the lines that you state.

[trane]

This adds to my growing concenrs about the direction of the MLS. Concerns that the Impact manegemnt seem to share.

[ensco]

Just to recap:

The Saputo money isn't Joey's, it's his fathers. No surprise if, given the economic environment, Dad had a quiet chat with junior and turned off the spigot.

Gillett has to be in deep trouble given the credit crisis. He uses massive debt levels to support his business (Liverpool was purchased 100% with borrowed money, in a transaction that is a poster child for bad banking practices now).

No point going off half cocked. It's a sign of the times.

[Cashcleaner]

^^ So true, Trane. Montreal fights and scrapes its way to the upper-echelon of CONCACAF play as a USL team, while the MLS doesn't really give it the credit it deserves as a tournament -probably because it makes SuperLiga look all the more useless.

Montreal is now reaping the rewards of a good USL run and foray into Champions League, and perhaps they don't see MLS entry as topping that.

Of course, as Ensco suggests, the real reason may be just basic economics.

[trane]

^ It could be. But even then this is probelematic and short sighted for the league, Saputo and Montreal are clearly a good organization, it would be much better for the league to absorb such a established and succesfull franchise then try to rekindle one were it already failed. [ I do like the Barca conection for Miami, as I had mentioned before such relatioship I believe would be good for the league]

[bergkamp]

^^ So true, Trane. Montreal fights and scrapes its way to the upper-echelon of CONCACAF play as a USL team, while the MLS doesn't really give it the credit it deserves as a tournament -probably because it makes SuperLiga look all the more useless.

Montreal is now reaping the rewards of a good USL run and foray into Champions League, and perhaps they don't see MLS entry as topping that.

Of course, as Ensco suggests, the real reason may be just basic economics.

Last time a I checked, Houston was still in the Champions League

[Cashcleaner]

^ You are correct, Sir! The match against Firpo was rescheduled. They have to beat them on the 26th to advance. I think they play in Houston, so they have a shot here.

[mlsintoronto]

I don't have any inside info, but in recent months the cost of $40Million USD in Canadian Dollars has skyrocketted versus the middle of the summer.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

How on earth does Gillette selling out -- under extreme duress from the fans -- in Liverpool equate to him not investing in soccer here?

There might be an economic argument, as the debt level at Liverpool is considerable; but between's Saputo's considerable financial muscle and Gillette's own wealth, MLS would be an easy investment for them.

So grab a fucking point before you criticize other people's posts, okay dim-wit?
He's selling because he doesn't have any money, extremely angry person. :rolleyes: This recession apparently is hitting him and his personal investments hard. And the reason he's also under pressure from fans is because he doesn't have any money. The reason Liverpool are in debt is because, like Abramovich at chelsea, Gillette's investment was in the form of loans that are expected to be paid back. All of Livepool, Man United and Chelsea are in deep debt.

Connection? One might think so. Enjoy life on another ignore list.

[Cashcleaner]

I don't have any inside info, but in recent months the cost of $40Million USD in Canadian Dollars has skyrocketted versus the middle of the summer.

So if I am correctly getting the gist of what you're saying, we need to blame Jim Flaherty?

Alright guys, you heard the man. Every one takes a grenade and passes the rest to his right.

[Beach_Red]

Joey didn't want to fork out the $40 million for the club, plus $10-15 million (minimum) to upgrade the stadium.

who know what other costs would need to be incurred (including higher payroll)

Remember, even though the Impact get a pretty good turnout at most games, everyone knows that ALOT of those tickets are giveaways to local soccer clubs through the Quebec Soccer Federation.

That becomes financially taxing when you are dealing with MLS level cost structures.

Yes, this is true. Plus, to move to the MLS I still think Montreal will need a downtown stadium because they'll need to go after everyone.

In that other thread about TFC demographics someone listed the populations of cities west of downtown - Miss., Burlington, Oakville, Hamilton, etc., and with a stadium in the far east end of Montreal they lose the entire West Island, it's like losing everything west of BMO (sort of, straight comparisons are hard to make).

The Expos couldn't survive in Olympic Stadium, the Als couldn't survive in Olympic stadium and the Impact won't be able to get any bigger in its shadow. Some of that for the Expos and Als was the stadium itself, sure, but the location isn't right for the "big leagues." But if they ever get into a downtown stadium, Montreal would be great in the MLS.

[Cashcleaner]

^ I don't know much about Montreal, but while Olympic stadium/Stade Saputo is not located downtown, isn't still relatively easy to get to?

It's the final stop for one of their subway lines isn't it?

[DigzTFC!]

"We don't have a lot of commercial businesses in Canada today," Garber said of league sponsorships. "The more teams we add there, the more it takes away out from growing our footprint and our television ratings in the United States."


Read Garber's lips: He doesn't give a fuck about good soccer culture. He cares about corporate sponsorship and media markets.


Miami and St.Louis will be selected this round.

Then next round New York part II will be ready and thats a shoe in, and Portland will be included in this round

or

If you take Jloome argument, USL should raise their salary cap to $5.1 Million with a DP and fight money with money. If MLS wants $40 for the privilege of being in the league, why don't these owners reallocate those funds to a better on the field product. Even if its only a few teams. Vancouver, Montreal, Portland should be able to afford this.

Top flight USL only has 10 teams.

If Miami gets in to MLS, you can say good bye to Miami FC and future exansion Tampa Bay Rowdies of the USL

How long will the newly found Austin Aztexs last with Houston and Dallas in MLS?

The league is in a bad way right now. Especially with so many of them being financial losers

What does it means for Canada? MLS is NOT going to let another Canadian team compete in MLS for another decade.....We should really start our own league. Its fucking ridiculous, especailly when MLS is destroying the USL. All Garber is doing is filling in the media blanks on the US Map.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Major_League_Soccer_Map_2008_Season.PNG

[trane]

^ By Toronto standards the stadium is very close to downtown. It is easy to get to, but by Montreal standards they may feel it is far out.

[trane]

"We don't have a lot of commercial businesses in Canada today," Garber said of league sponsorships. "The more teams we add there, the more it takes away out from growing our footprint and our television ratings in the United States."


Read Garber's lips: He doesn't give a fuck about good soccer culture. He cares about corporate sponsorship and media markets.


Miami and St.Louis will be selected this round.

Then next round New York part II will be ready and thats a shoe in, and Portland will be included in this round


What does it means for Canada? MLS is NOT going to let another Canadian team compete in MLS for another decade.....We should really start our own league. Its fucking ridiculous, especailly when MLS is destroying the USL. All Garber is doing is filling in the media blanks on the US Map.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Major_League_Soccer_Map_2008_Season.PNG

Fuck this, we need our own league.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

it is downtown but its in dire need of repairs (they keep waiting for the ceiling to cave in, not a good look)

[Ossington Mental Youth]

boys we have our own league, the csl, go support that, the CSA isnt going to be creating another one any time soon

[DigzTFC!]

Fuck it, we already have four strong owners. Make it a 10 city league with a big $5 Million cap. Garber is clearly not in favor of more Canadian teams until the very end. Problem with that is, he's killing the league the other Canadian teams are in. So instead of progressing soccer in Canada he's killing it down to one team with the hope of moving the other teams into MLS. FUCK THAT

[RealG-TFC]

boys we have our own league, the csl, go support that, the CSA isnt going to be creating another one any time soon

That's hardly a league and you know that.

I agree that we should get our own league but that will be a long time coming. For a legit league we need a ton of investors and I doubt that anyone will want to invest in something so risky during these economic times.

[Beach_Red]

^ By Toronto standards the stadium is very close to downtown. It is easy to get to, but by Montreal standards they may feel it is far out.

It's more than just distance. Montreal really is divided east-west and there's not a lot of movement between them. For people on the West Island a trip to the Olympic Stadium is the only time they may ever go past St. Laurent. Probably not a good thing, and maybe it's even changing, but it's way, way different than a place like BMO - or even some of the suburb stadiums in the US.

It's on the metro line, yes, but strangely, the West Island isn't - you notice ho win Montreal the metro lines are numbers 1, 3, 5 and 5 - where's 2? It was the one that was supposed to go into the west island. Why didn't it?

Olympic Stadium was built where it is by polliticians for political reasons which is often not the same as good business reasons. A stadium way on the West Island, say Beaconsfield or Baie D'Urfe would have pretty much the same problems.

But I will always say a good stadium downtown - even Molson stadium where the Als play - and soccer in Montreal would be huge.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

That's hardly a league and you know that.

I agree that we should get our own league but that will be a long time coming. For a legit league we need a ton of investors and I doubt that anyone will want to invest in something so risky during these economic times.

HAHAHA
i know.
its just that people are essentially calling for a pipedream.

[Steve]

Fuck it, we already have four strong owners. Make it a 10 city league with a big $5 Million cap. Garber is clearly not in favor of more Canadian teams until the very end. Problem with that is, he's killing the league the other Canadian teams are in. So instead of progressing soccer in Canada he's killing it down to one team with the hope of moving the other teams into MLS. FUCK THAT

Really? Which 4 strong owners do we have that want to invest in a Canadian league? Do you really think the same 4 owners that are keen on MLS would also want to invest in a much riskier venture like a Canadian league? It's a pipe dream. It won't happen.

As for the Montreal news, I'm not surprised, and it likely has little to do with Montreal's commitment to the USL. Yes yes, the owners are rich, but in these economic times, everyone is going to be tightening up. When the credit markets are clogged, everyone is going to stop investing in new ventures. Just wait, ride it out, and we'll see where we are when it's over (in 3-5 years).

[NF-FC]

This may sound crazy, but i wouldn't mind TFC in USL. It's a lot less restrictive and would allow us to build a better club. If we went to USL it would bring a higher profile to the league and cause teams like Portland and Vancouver to rethink what they are about to spend 40 million on. The only downside is the loss of Beckham fans, but really they wont be missed anyhow.

Edit*

Toronto moves to USL
Portland and Vancouver stay
Ottawa gets USL expansion

MLS gets the dynamic duo of Miami and Atlanta, then folds in 5 years

[Redcoe15]

This may sound crazy, but i wouldn't mind TFC in USL. It's a lot less restrictive and would allow us to build a better club. If we went to USL it would bring a higher profile to the league and cause teams like Portland and Vancouver to rethink what they are about to spend 40 million on. The only downside is the loss of Beckham fans, but really they wont be missed anyhow.

Edit*

Toronto moves to USL
Portland and Vancouver stay
Ottawa gets USL expansion

MLS gets the dynamic duo of Miami and Atlanta, then folds in 5 years
Uh, hello! Toronto Lynx. Remember them? How'd that work out?

[rocker]

i don't see how the USL can afford to spend more $$$ on players. $5million for each team? They'd lose more money than MLS has. They average about 5000 fans a game and they exist in much smaller markets than MLS in most of their cities; and the bigger markets they are in will get taken up by MLS. Do they want to compete and blow money trying to be like MLS? How are they going to get major ad revenue as a "little guy" in places like Carolina and Charleston?

I've also heard people say USL has a better business model or runs things better than MLS. What is that exactly? Their model really isn't particularly fascinating or amazing. They just have teams spending from small amounts (Atlanta) on players to big amounts (Montreal)... doesn't take an MBA to figure that out.

They are just a league willing to accept being small and that's how they go along. They are successful at their level because they don't want to get huge (unless it just happens spontaneously, and then they'll take the success...)

If the USL tries to get into the "big time" in financial terms the way they are constructed now, they would deal with exactly the same problems soccer leagues have dealt with forever in America. MLS was designed to avoid that, and it survives thanks to that.

If they want to become as big as MLS, they'd have more trouble financing the project than Joey Saputo has trouble finding $40mil to get into MLS.

[ensco]

I don't have any inside info, but in recent months the cost of $40Million USD in Canadian Dollars has skyrocketted versus the middle of the summer.

Plus most of the operating costs (salaries) of the team are in US dollars, and would be quite a bit higher in MLS. So it's not just the expansion fee, the whole business model of any Canadian team in MLS is hurt by the depreciation of the C$dollar. Correct, mlsintoronto?

[NF-FC]

Uh, hello! Toronto Lynx. Remember them? How'd that work out?

you can't honestly compare TFC to the Lynx.

[rocker]

you can't honestly compare TFC to the Lynx.

If MLSE had bought a team in the USL there's no way they'd sell out 20000 seats a game. No way. They'd get 7000 a game and we'd have more than a half empty stadium.
Heck, the stadium probably wouldn't have been built because MLSE's predictions wouldn't have seen any financial sense in having a USL team... so they'd have dropped out.

[DigzTFC!]

It is a pipe dream. And a self sustaining USL in a decade from now is also a pipe dream. MLS is absorbing teams not competing with them, so a merger is seems less and less likely. Why merge, when you can take the best markets and slowly cut out all the rest.

North America has experienced mergers before, but the USL is in a fragile position

I'm a bit to young for this, so some may step in and clarify:

NFL: merger between AFL & NFL, hence the creation of the superbowl

NHL: The merger between NHL & WHA

NBA: The merger between NBA & ABA

So what does this mean for Canadian Soccer?

1) MLS absorbs Vancouver and Montreal in a merger
2) Both desolve as USL desolves
3) Both become part of a MLS second division or become lower level teams

I guess I just talked myself into Jloome's suggestion of the USL competing with MLS, but it has to happen now. Raise the cap, bring in the best players possible. Offer GAs bigger contract....stuff like that

And the 5 Million cap is just a number, its more figurative then anything, so don't get caught up the number.....

[rocker]

but i think many of those mergers in the past were of equal leagues on a financial basis.

MLS has nothing to worry about financially from the USL.

I think some people are equating Montreal and Puerto Rico's on-the-field success with the USL financial quality. They are two very different things.
In reality, it doesn't matter what the quality is of USL play or MLS play. It's about the money behind it. If the USL wants to get to MLS's level of attendance, stadium capacity, salary levels, they would need a massive infusion of cash to grow the game (that's what MLS has done).

If the USL just starts spending money (if they had billionaires behind them) they'd probably just be NASL #2.

If someone can tell me how USL is going to afford building 15000-20000 seat stadiums in places like Carolina and Charleston, get games on ESPN, upgrade their average attendance from 5000 to 15000, spend $2-3million per team on players... I'd like to hear the plan. Until they can do this stuff (what MLS has done already) they cannot compete.

[Beach_Red]

but i think many of those mergers in the past were of equal leagues on a financial basis.

MLS has nothing to worry about financially from the USL.

I think some people are equating Montreal and Puerto Rico's on-the-field success with the USL financial quality. They are two very different things.
In reality, it doesn't matter what the quality is of USL play or MLS play. It's about the money behind it. If the USL wants to get to MLS's level of attendance, stadium capacity, salary levels, they would need a massive infusion of cash to grow the game (that's what MLS has done).

The NHL absorbing the four WHA teams is probably the closest comparison. The NHL was expanding and the WHA was shrinking. Kind of looks like the MLS and USL now.

It's too bad only one of those four WHA teams still play in the cities they were in then.

[NF-FC]

If MLSE had bought a team in the USL there's no way they'd sell out 20000 seats a game. No way. They'd get 7000 a game and we'd have more than a half empty stadium.
Heck, the stadium probably wouldn't have been built because MLSE's predictions wouldn't have seen any financial sense in having a USL team... so they'd have dropped out.

But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the current, already existing TFC saying screw you guys, were going to this league, peace the fuck out.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

This improves Otawa chances as Im sure MLS will want to come North and Ottawa is now the only realistic bid coming from the great white north...sorry for the Impact but Gilette seems to screw up every club he gets involved in....Impact, Liverpool etc.

[DigzTFC!]

I guess the only positive thing in the short-term for USL, is if the expansion selections for MLS are not USL markets. Any one of Atlanta, St.Louis, Ottawa.

St.Louis and Miami may slow down the bleeding as Tampa is getting an expansion team in the USL next season. But I think two USL market expansion selections would indicate the beginning of the end. There are only 10 teams in USL.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

How on earth does Gillette selling out -- under extreme duress from the fans -- in Liverpool equate to him not investing in soccer here?

There might be an economic argument, as the debt level at Liverpool is considerable; but between's Saputo's considerable financial muscle and Gillette's own wealth, MLS would be an easy investment for them.

So grab a fucking point before you criticize other people's posts, okay dim-wit?


He was being forced out not only by the fans but his partner Hicks. The economy downturn has added more pressure. He has the Habs up for sale,
most people don;t believe this but i believe its based more on fact then rumours. Montreal will be a USL team for quite some time...Ottawa has a better bid then Montreal and should be named as one of the 2011 bids..
the Vancouver once a SSS is settled, cause MLS will say No to the BC place plan, they are already on record as NO big stadiums for MLS.

[Dirk Diggler]

But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the current, already existing TFC saying screw you guys, were going to this league, peace the fuck out.

Again ... no one is going to watch minor league soccer here in Toronto. Even MLSE will have a hard time selling that.

[Beach_Red]

But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the current, already existing TFC saying screw you guys, were going to this league, peace the fuck out.

the supporters' groups would probably still be okay with it, but a lot of the media see USL as a minor league as do a lot of people. Going out to see Rochester or Charleston isn't quite New York or LA or Chicago.

But I think you're right, if Vancouver, Montreal and Ottawa were in the USL along with TFC then CBC would still broadcast games (maybe even more) and more Canadian cities could join (I'm thinking it wouldn't cost $40 million) until there was a whole Canadian division that could break away.

This could be great.

[NF-FC]

In USL, we wouldn't have our ticket money going to support Columbus and Kansas, it would all go back to our club

[rocker]

but people are always complaining about MLS's level of quality. If TFC leaves to the USL, it's not going to get better. I've watched USL games, I've watched every one of Montreal's games this season. The quality is NOT better in the USL. Montreal is a better "team" than TFC (in terms of chemistry but not results -- TFC beat them once and tied them) but not a better "team" than Chicago or New England or Columbus.. and those teams have much better quality (there's no Blanco or Joseph or Schellotto) on Montreal.

If you want to see TFC become the big shots of the USL and kick the shit out of bad teams like Miami, who can't afford the cost of players the way TFC could, then fine. But I'd rather be in the higher quality league, even if that means we have to struggle to get to the top.

in the USL scenario I think you'd see a loss of season tickets as fans realize the quality is even worse than MLS and sponsorships would decline. When it's Charleston coming to town versus LA, there'd be less interest. It would snowball downward.

[Redcoe15]

This improves Otawa chances as Im sure MLS will want to come North and Ottawa is now the only realistic bid coming from the great white north...sorry for the Impact but Gilette seems to screw up every club he gets involved in....Impact, Liverpool etc.
Don't be so sure about MLS wanting to come North right away. Garber has stated, in his state of the union address, that Canada actually takes away from trying to build up support in the U.S. from a financial and television point of view. Garber wants to grow MLS's footprint in America. That's why one shouldn't be surprised if the next two bids are awarded to American cities.

As for Ottawa, it sounds as if Melnyk's bid is all sizzle but where's the substance? If Saputo can't get the capital to expand his building, which is already in place, and is forced to drop out in these economic times, where the hell is Melnyk going to find the cake to build his field of schemes from scratch?

[mlsintoronto]

Plus most of the operating costs (salaries) of the team are in US dollars, and would be quite a bit higher in MLS. So it's not just the expansion fee, the whole business model of any Canadian team in MLS is hurt by the depreciation of the C$dollar. Correct, mlsintoronto?

actually no. The players are employed and paid by the league. Most of the expenses are local - and fees paid to the league are largely tied to local revenues. In other words not affected by dollar fluctuation.

[jloome]

He's selling because he doesn't have any money, extremely angry person. :rolleyes: This recession apparently is hitting him and his personal investments hard. And the reason he's also under pressure from fans is because he doesn't have any money. The reason Liverpool are in debt is because, like Abramovich at chelsea, Gillette's investment was in the form of loans that are expected to be paid back. All of Livepool, Man United and Chelsea are in deep debt.

Connection? One might think so. Enjoy life on another ignore list.

Dude, you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. Period. Do a google news search on George Gillette. He's one of the richest investors in North American pro sport. Yes, his purcahse in England was financed, which is one of the reasons that both he and his partner were hung in effigy for a year in england. But he also owns the Montreal Canadiens, and that wasn't a on-paper-only, purely financed deal (which most sports purchases are anyway.)

Please. Do me the favour of putting me on your ignore list and I'll shuttle you onto mine along with Giambac and the rest of the mouth breathers.

[ensco]

actually no. The players are employed and paid by the league. Most of the expenses are local - and fees paid to the league are largely tied to local revenues. In other words not affected by dollar fluctuation.

Interesting. I knew that and forgot it (but remembered enough to wonder, I think, which is why I asked you). Very different from the situation in the NHL, or any other league.

This highlights an interesting dynamic. Increasing the number of Canadian teams in MLS increases the exposure of all the teams to the C$, which has worked against all the MLS owners the last two months, and can't be especially helpful to the Vancouver or Ottawa bids.

[nfitz]

^ I don't know much about Montreal, but while Olympic stadium/Stade Saputo is not located downtown, isn't still relatively easy to get to?It's about the same distance from downtown Montreal, as BMO Field is from downtown Toronto. And with a subway line going directly there, it's a lot easier to get to.


It's the final stop for one of their subway lines isn't it?No, it's about half-way out from downtown on the Green Line.


It's on the metro line, yes, but strangely, the West Island isn't - you notice ho win Montreal the metro lines are numbers 1, 3, 5 and 5 - where's 2? It was the one that was supposed to go into the west island. Why didn't it?.???? Line 2 is the Orange line. Line 3 was going to be the conversion of the Deux-Montagnes commuter line to regional metro - which finally happened in the 1990s, but didn't get numbered. It was never getting to west island, as it crossed to Laval before it get's that far west.

I've never heard of discussion of a Metro line to west island. Population densities are too low ... not sure why west island is any more important for soccer than Laval, South Shore, Repentigny ...

Olympic Stadium is pretty central location, and not difficult to get to from anywhere.

[TorontoBlades]

There goes my dream of Mtl, Van, Ott all getting MLS teams...then the four Canadian teams could create our own MLS division where we play each other more home/away and fill the schedule with the rest of the teams based on geographic location, etc...the closest we'd ever come to our own league :(

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

Garber said Vancouver's presentation was "one of the best I've ever seen, and I was involved in sports expansion in [the NFL]."

Vancouver's in now for sure.


Dont bet on that..until they get a SSS they wont be in

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

Don't be so sure about MLS wanting to come North right away. Garber has stated, in his state of the union address, that Canada actually takes away from trying to build up support in the U.S. from a financial and television point of view. Garber wants to grow MLS's footprint in America. That's why one shouldn't be surprised if the next two bids are awarded to American cities.

As for Ottawa, it sounds as if Melnyk's bid is all sizzle but where's the substance? If Saputo can't get the capital to expand his building, which is already in place, and is forced to drop out in these economic times, where the hell is Melnyk going to find the cake to build his field of schemes from scratch?

Melnyk has more on the ball then Saputo ever had, Montreals bid was doomed from the start. Ottawa will be fine, Montreal can remain a USL team till hell freezes over.

[Redcoe15]

Melnyk has more on the ball then Saputo ever had, Montreals bid was doomed from the start. Ottawa will be fine, Montreal can remain a USL team till hell freezes over.
How so? Please explain to the rest of us. Unless you're just being biased.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

How so? Please explain to the rest of us. Unless you're just being biased.


first Ottawas bid is still on...Montreals is not....Melnyk has a first class operation in the Ottawa Senators. Saputo is just made fro the USL market, he was kidding himself with the MLS and Gilette.

[jloome]

i don't see how the USL can afford to spend more $$$ on players. $5million for each team? They'd lose more money than MLS has. They average about 5000 fans a game and they exist in much smaller markets than MLS in most of their cities; and the bigger markets they are in will get taken up by MLS. Do they want to compete and blow money trying to be like MLS? How are they going to get major ad revenue as a "little guy" in places like Carolina and Charleston?

I've also heard people say USL has a better business model or runs things better than MLS. What is that exactly? Their model really isn't particularly fascinating or amazing. They just have teams spending from small amounts (Atlanta) on players to big amounts (Montreal)... doesn't take an MBA to figure that out.

They are just a league willing to accept being small and that's how they go along. They are successful at their level because they don't want to get huge (unless it just happens spontaneously, and then they'll take the success...)

If the USL tries to get into the "big time" in financial terms the way they are constructed now, they would deal with exactly the same problems soccer leagues have dealt with forever in America. MLS was designed to avoid that, and it survives thanks to that.

If they want to become as big as MLS, they'd have more trouble financing the project than Joey Saputo has trouble finding $40mil to get into MLS.


This is the most cogent argument against the idea that I've seen. I think it's probably accurate, but doesn't have to be; in other words, the very groundrules you've established here -- that MLS has developed a "survival"-based model -- can be used by other leagues going forward to compete with them.

As with the ABA and AFL, it can do so by promoting itself as actually "fixing" shortcomings within the existing model. Those leagues, of course, didn't survive. But they did end out merging, strengthening and redefining the original product.

Why wouldn't USL take that route? The founder of the MLS, Lamarr Hunt, was one of the guys who did it with the AFL. The precedent isn't that far off the mark, and there's nothing to say the Saputos haven't considered that (along with the current credit crunch and broadening recession.)

[jloome]

How on earth does Gillette selling out -- under extreme duress from the fans -- in Liverpool equate to him not investing in soccer here?

There might be an economic argument, as the debt level at Liverpool is considerable; but between's Saputo's considerable financial muscle and Gillette's own wealth, MLS would be an easy investment for them.

So grab a fucking point before you criticize other people's posts, okay dim-wit?


Oops! I take it back. A little bird tells me that, google news notwithstnading, Gillette is deep in the shit on this side of the pond as well, potentially. So maybe Saputo lost his partner.

[BakaGaijin]

I don't have any inside info, but in recent months the cost of $40Million USD in Canadian Dollars has skyrocketted versus the middle of the summer.


Exactly. And perhaps they are forward thinking. This is an investment after all.

The U.S. economy is about to go through extreme inflation and their dollar will collapse.

Buying $40 million U.S. right now with Canadian dollars is retarded. All foreign currency's will rise dramatically against the U.S. dollar. Everyone should run as far away as possible from U.S. dollars and bonds.

[Beach_Red]

Olympic Stadium is pretty central location, and not difficult to get to from anywhere.

I have to confess I'm one of those guys who stopped going to Expos games in the mid-80's, partly because Olympic Stadium was a pain to get to. Not riding the metro out there, so much, but getting to the metro was a trip in itself, and then there was just nothing to do out there but turn around and come back. It's quite different from going to a game downtown with plenty of bars and restaurants close by.

The stadium itself is a problem, for sure, but just look at the Als - such a failure at Olympic Stadium and such a success downtown.

There are a lot of reasons why no team calls Olympic Stadium home and the location is one of them. It may not be such a big factor for Saputo Stadium, but it would be tough to grow in that location. Montreal is a downtown city, going to a sports event is usually part of an outing, not the entire outing. The Als success should be the model.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

http://www.mls-rumors.net/2008/11/report-montreal-expansion-group-accuses.html

the plot thickens (possibly)

[wzhxvy]

This sounds and smells like the previous NHL expansions...you had groups representing cities bid for expansion but only a few of them actually agreed to put the money upfront (ie why Ottawa and Tampa got in). This sound like a similar situation, they were not "retained" or dropped their bid...either or...doesnt sound like they wanted to be in for the 40mill.

And with Gilette having issues in Liverpool, and just recently tried to kill rumours about selling the Canadians (which must have been true but he doesnt want to be seen as shopping the team because its value would be diminished)...the guy is obviously in trouble, so he backed out. Saputo's heart was never in it...so here we go. At the end of day...who cares...Montreal is not a big league town outside of the strip joint industry.

[ensco]

Montreal is not a big league town outside of the strip joint industry.

You take that back.

It's also in the big leagues for poutine, killer smoked meat sandwiches, cigarette smoking...(feel free to add to this list)

[ensco]

http://www.mls-rumors.net/2008/11/report-montreal-expansion-group-accuses.html

the plot thickens (possibly)

Possibly. This is a bad blow to the perceived current financial situation for both Joey Saputo and George Gillett. Whatever the facts are, they'll have to put a different spin on things.

This could be fun.

[Beach_Red]

This sounds and smells like the previous NHL expansions...you had groups representing cities bid for expansion but only a few of them actually agreed to put the money upfront (ie why Ottawa and Tampa got in). This sound like a similar situation, they were not "retained" or dropped their bid...either or...doesnt sound like they wanted to be in for the 40mill.

And why Hamilton didn't (or so they say). Then, of course, it turned out Ottawa didn't really have the money and used pretty much exactly the Hamilton financing plan that was rejected.

[TorCanSoc]

Which one of you said they thought Montreal had a weak bid anyway? That's ridiculous.

League of our own, that would be the retardification of soccer in Canada. We're caught up in the patriotism of this us versus them thar Amar'ikuns. A Canadian league would fold faster than a... a... uh.... a really foldy thing!

[DigzTFC!]

I hope that report is not true about Garber taking Montreal out of the race. If true, he just did a world of hurt to his reputation. I for one, as a TFC fan would be upset to no end.

President of the Montreal Impact the Saputo Stadium Mr. Joey Saputo will meet the media:

Monday, November 24, 2008
10:30 am
Saputo Stadium
4750 Sherbrooke Street
Montreal

[Blizzard]

I hope that report is not true about Garber taking Montreal out of the race. If true, he just did a world of hurt to his reputation. I for one, as a TFC fan would be upset to no end.

President of the Montreal Impact the Saputo Stadium Mr. Joey Saputo will meet the media:

Monday, November 24, 2008
10:30 am
Saputo Stadium
4750 Sherbrooke Street
Montreal

It should be interesting.

BTW, if Montreal was dropped by the league, there had to be a good reason such as ... perhaps ... something lacking in their bid ... ie money or facilities.

We'll see. I look forward to hearing more.

[Redcoe15]

first Ottawas bid is still on...Montreals is not....Melnyk has a first class operation in the Ottawa Senators. Saputo is just made fro the USL market, he was kidding himself with the MLS and Gilette.
That is a weak ass excuse if ever I heard it. Saputo knows how to build a soccer organization. Melnyk doesn't.

Melnyk bought out the Senators dirt cheap from bankruptcy that already had a top notch hockey department. Looking at the team now, I'd say Melnyk has allowed the hockey side to slowly rot. So his ability to create a first class operation is very dubious.

Saputo has built a successful franchise from the bottom up. The team's advancement in the CONCACAF Champions League is proof of that. Plus his family's assets dwarfs Melnyk's. If the latest rumors are correct, it would appear that personal politics on Garber's part is the reason for Montreal being left out, Not the quality of the bid.

Why don't you just come out and say it? You hate Montreal as a city and are biased towards Ottawa as a rival for TFC because you have some sort of connection with the city.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

. A Canadian league would fold faster than a... a... uh.... a really foldy thing!

A fan?
nono i got this one
a cheap drunk taking a shot to the stomach outside a dimly light, highly suspect wateringhole that has catered for decades to a legion of unhappy desperate souls drowning their sorrows by the bucketful.

[Lucky Strike]

Completely unbacked hypothesis but...could Garber have been pressured to drop Montreal because it's a Canadian bid? I'm not saying Garber hates Canadians as an excuse or anything, but it's logical to think there are some businessmen (along with the USSF) who see MLS as a tool to further US soccer, not Canadian. They might have put the kaibash (sp?) on the whole thing. I'm not saying it's a conspiracy, but just people acting strategically.

Like I said, complete shot in the dark of course...

[nascarguy]

Gillette a asshole i hate him he needs to sell liverpool. I happy that the Saputo lost him bid for a mls team..

[Redcoe15]

Gillette a asshole i hate him he needs to sell liverpool. I happy that the Saputo lost him bid for a mls team..
Lemme guess. Liverpool supporter?

[Beach_Red]

Which one of you said they thought Montreal had a weak bid anyway? That's ridiculous.

League of our own, that would be the retardification of soccer in Canada. We're caught up in the patriotism of this us versus them thar Amar'ikuns. A Canadian league would fold faster than a... a... uh.... a really foldy thing!

Well, you know, there's something happening in Montreal tomorrow, what's it called again? Oh yeah, the Grey Cup.

If the CFL can survive in Canada this long there's really no reason a soccer league can't.

[redcard]

i dont see why montreal would be dropped as a bid by garber...they can just not vote for them...

perhaps montreal is to take over the philly spot? wasnt philly in some financial trouble as well?

[troy1982]

i dont see why montreal would be dropped as a bid by garber...they can just not vote for them...

perhaps montreal is to take over the philly spot? wasnt philly in some financial trouble as well?

Doubtfull since they have already stadium construction with the "official" ground breaking happening on Dec. 1

[VPjr]

I don't have any inside info, but in recent months the cost of $40Million USD in Canadian Dollars has skyrocketted versus the middle of the summer.
While I have no doubt that this is a factor, somehow I doubt that this is of primary concern. Who can predict what the exchange rate will be on the date that MLS expects payment of the franchise fee or when the new team would commence operations in MLS? Gillett is an American and thus the exchange rate issue would not be a problem. I'm sure the Saputo family has significant US cash reserves as well and I'm sure that the Saputo corporate interests are enjoying the weak Canadian dollar when they export their products to the United States (I know I'm loving a weak CDN dollar since I do most of my business in US$)

Somehow, I think there is a lot more to this decision to pull out. Maybe they never had any intention to pay that much for an MLS franchise. Maybe they thought more bids would fall by the wayside, especially because of the credit crunch sweeping the financial world and they would be able to swoop in and pick up a franchise on the cheap. I doubt they expected to see a group like Melnyk's come in with a 40 million dollar cheque in hand and such a well put together proposal. Ottawa is a long shot to get a franchise, by all accounts, but they've clearly shown MLS greater committment and desire than the Montreal group ever did when Melnyk put his money where his mouth is (while Saputo made it very clear that he thought the price tage for a franchise was obscenely high)

BTW, I would not read too much into Gillett and Hicks' financial situation because they used massive bank loans to purchase Liverpool FC. This is a very common practice. If you are buying a company with excellent positive cash flow and this company has the potential to be flipped at a profit if neccessary, its a smart way to buy a company without tying up too much cash in the process. The rich guy gets what he wants (a lucrative property without depleting cash reserves) and the bank gets what it wants (interest payments from a stable company backed by very wealthy owners). In this case, the only people who don't get what they want are the supporters because the club can't overspend its profits on new players because that money needs to be used to pay back the bank.

[VPjr]

http://www.mls-rumors.net/2008/11/report-montreal-expansion-group-accuses.html

the plot thickens (possibly)

VERRRY interesting.

I can't wait for Monday's news cycle.

this might get nasty.....:hump:

[Ossington Mental Youth]

VERRRY interesting.

I can't wait for Monday's news cycle.

this might get nasty.....:hump:

HAHAHA
its going to be a shitshow to say the least.
I remember reading that they might announce the new expansion teams during halftime tomorrow, dunno if thats true or not

[DigzTFC!]

Pure speculation,

but I don't think Montreal is done quite yet. This maybe Garber's way of pushing Montreal to put up the expansion fee. It was a simple statement and the selection hasn't been made yet. What is the gain of publicly stating that? MLS can always change its mind come early 2009.

[Blizzard]

i dont see why montreal would be dropped as a bid by garber...they can just not vote for them...


Probably some sort of "minimum criteria" thing. If they didn't meet that (or wanted to alter it in some way) there bid/application may not even officially exist!

[wzhxvy]

VPJr, there is a lot to be read into their financial situation. Gillette overextended himself on Liverpool and he is overleveraged...you think he wants to sell the Canadians because its a good time to sell ? Not really...he needs the cash and does not in fact have the cash flow.

Its clear he bailed and Saputo does not want to go it alone either because he was never sold in the first place, thinks at 40Mil the franchise is over-valued, or does not want to make that investment in this environment.

What I am curious about is this news conference...I do not get the bad blood unless it became a pissing contest..ie Garber wants cash now and Montreal pitched payment over time, with conditions bla bla (so they broke the rules and embarassed Garber), which in turn pissed him off, so he made the comments.

[DigzTFC!]

Probably some sort of "minimum criteria" thing.

The minimum criteria has a big thing on having a "plan" for a SSS. A lot of those bids actually don't have them for the next 5 years. Any "minimum" criteria that Montreal has could be rectified. There are huge holes in the other bids.

[DigzTFC!]

I think this is MLS posturing with Montreal. I think there is still negotiations to be had. It makes no sense for MLS to rescind the bid, unless they're hell bent on shitty big markets and publicly embarrassing themselves.

[Dirk Diggler]

If what MLS Rumours states is true than this will be the second time in a short period of time that Montreal has been screwed over by big organizations seeking more money. First by Bernie Eccelstone and now by Don Garber.

Personally I see little reason as to why Don Garber would just say it. They've been having behind the scene negotiations all the while ... why pull such a stunt now?

[VPjr]

VPJr, there is a lot to be read into their financial situation. Gillette overextended himself on Liverpool and he is overleveraged...you think he wants to sell the Canadians because its a good time to sell ? Not really...he needs the cash and does not in fact have the cash flow.

Its clear he bailed and Saputo does not want to go it alone either because he was never sold in the first place, thinks at 40Mil the franchise is over-valued, or does not want to make that investment in this environment.

What I am curious about is this news conference...I do not get the bad blood unless it became a pissing contest..ie Garber wants cash now and Montreal pitched payment over time, with conditions bla bla (so they broke the rules and embarassed Garber), which in turn pissed him off, so he made the comments.

But, as far as everything I've ever read about the LFC deal is concerned, he and Hicks did not overextend themselves...they might have overextended LFC by putting that particular company in deep debt but they really don't have that much cash of their tied up in that deal (unless Royal Bank of Scotland demands they pony up more cash when it comes time to refinance the deal). If they are not interested in putting up more cash (and if the team continues to do well on the pitch), they'll find some rich sheik from Dubai or Qatar who will net them a tidy profit on the original purchase price.

Also, where do you see anything that says he is selling the Habs. He was on McCowan's show last night and made it very clear he is not selling. I am not so naive to believe everything I hear on the radio but I believe he's sincere. The man's business interests are highly diversified. Things might be a bit tight right now in some divisions of his empire but overall, I'm sure he'll be just fine.

I agree that I am curious to see where the bad blood stems from....maybe Saputo, being a member of one of Canada's richest families, doesn't appreciate Don Garber making a statement that sounds like he's got a case of the shorts.....these types of people are pretty proud (in the negative sense) and might take offence. The statement that Garber made seemed to intimate that they were having trouble coming up with the money (at least that's the way I read it).

[nascarguy]

I'm going to say this before it get to page 6 mods sould move this to the right form this is not about toronto fc and need to be moved to the mls forum.

[trane]

At the end of the day, I understand that deals can be hard to make. My concners is that for Garber it is clearly not a priority, again pointing out that what is good for the MLS ( Garber) is not neceserly good for TFC.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

Lets put Montreal to bed...they had their chance and blew it....now to move on to serious bidders.

[wzhxvy]

VPJr,

LaPresse and Balsille say its for sale. Why would they make it up ? Its clear at least to me that Gillette is tight on cash and quietly shopping assets to get some liquidity. You think he will be at the news conference on Monday ? I doubt it. I would tend to agree with you, that its probably why Saputo is holding it...to talk about value vs. not having the cash. Equally Saputo must have pissed off Garber by either questioning his expansion strategy to the owners, or putting in conditions ...either way...obviously both their egos are hurt...hence this public pissing contest.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

VPJr,

LaPresse and Balsille say its for sale. Why would they make it up ? Its clear at least to me that Gillette is tight on cash and quietly shopping assets to get some liquidity. You think he will be at the news conference on Monday ? I doubt it. I would tend to agree with you, that its probably why Saputo is holding it...to talk about value vs. not having the cash. Equally Saputo must have pissed off Garber by either questioning his expansion strategy to the owners, or putting in conditions ...either way...obviously both their egos are hurt...hence this public pissing contest.


The Habs are for sale no question...now is Gilette desperate or putting out feelers for the team? Hes in trouble with Liverpool, The usl Impact,
and now the Habs. Balsille will end up buying the Habs.

[trane]

I fucking hate the Ottawa franchise already, with a deep passion. Fuck them. Fuck the MLS. Without TFC it is just Yankee shite.

[VPjr]

VPJr,

LaPresse and Balsille say its for sale. Why would they make it up ? Its clear at least to me that Gillette is tight on cash and quietly shopping assets to get some liquidity. You think he will be at the news conference on Monday ? I doubt it. I would tend to agree with you, that its probably why Saputo is holding it...to talk about value vs. not having the cash. Equally Saputo must have pissed off Garber by either questioning his expansion strategy to the owners, or putting in conditions ...either way...obviously both their egos are hurt...hence this public pissing contest.

Balsillie never said it was for sale...he said that "any club is for sale, for the right price". he made it quite clear that he did not suggest that the Habs were for sale and that the only meeting he had with gillett when it came to pro sports was regarding RIM sponsoring one of Gillett's NASCAR teams.

La Presse is actually likely to be sued for printing that load of BS. Balsillie is not going to be sued...what does that tell you?

just like I don't believe gillett that that the Habs are not for sale just because he said, don't believe what you read in the press just because it was printed.

Gillett is not hard up for cash....I'm sure his balance sheets could be better these days but I'm pretty sure he's gonna be just fine.

[VPjr]

The Habs are for sale no question...now is Gilette desperate or putting out feelers for the team? Hes in trouble with Liverpool, The usl Impact,
and now the Habs. Balsille will end up buying the Habs.

be careful...Gillett might sue you too for spreading misinformation...

:D

LOL

[trane]

^ I think that Knight is right on point. The bottom line why would a relatively sucesful franchise, on and off the field, buy into a league like the MLS, for 30 Mill more then we did just two years ago?

[jloome]

It might be that they couldn't show financial due diligence. If both Saputo and Gillette's current holdings are heavily borrowed on, the league may have decided there was too much financial risk. Perhaps it's got something to do with current league priorities for establishing rivalries. With seattle joining, they'd likely prefer Vancouver, and the stadium issue has been gotten around with the proposed BC Place changes. But they're not going to give three franchises to Canada this early on, if at all. So they rule Montreal out early. Saputo might not be lying.

[ensco]

Re Gillett's financial situation:

1) Anybody who has ever met George Gillett believes him to be a fine, honourable person and a very creditworthy business man
2) His financial situation is complex
3) His fortune comes from his ownership in Swift (meat producers) and a group of ski resorts. Swift had a huge run up in value since he bought it (together with Tom Hicks' private equity firm) in 2001. But it's not clear what this investment is worth is today, as Swift has gone through a series of private mergers and acquisitions (largely debt financed), and this business has been severely affected (along with all other agricultural commdity producers) by the downturn.
4) It is widely believed (but not known for certain) that Gillett borrowed against his Swift interest as part of his arrangements to buy the Liverpool interest (VP Jr, he did not borrow all that money "non-recourse", which is the implication of your post). It's further believed that Hicks didn't put Swift up as collateral, and that this is part of the reason for the friction between them now. 5) It's not clear whether Gillett has pledged his shares in the Habs to any lender, but there is speculation he may have, which is where the Habs sale rumours come from.

So nobody knows anything except for insiders, but there's reason to believe that Gillett is stretched, at a minimum. That is what people on Wall St believe, anyway. I hope he makes it through this - lots of great businessmen aren't going to.

[Beach_Red]

Balsillie never said it was for sale...he said that "any club is for sale, for the right price". he made it quite clear that he did not suggest that the Habs were for sale and that the only meeting he had with gillett when it came to pro sports was regarding RIM sponsoring one of Gillett's NASCAR teams.


Too bad Balsillie doesn't want to get into MLS...

[VPjr]

Re Gillett's financial situation:

4) It is widely believed (but not known for certain) that Gillett borrowed against his Swift interest as part of his arrangements to buy the Liverpool interest (VP Jr, he did not borrow all that money "non-recourse", which is the implication of your post). It's further believed that Hicks didn't put Swift up as collateral, and that this is part of the reason for the friction between them now.

5) It's not clear whether Gillett has pledged his shares in the Habs to any lender, but there is speculation he may have, which is where the Habs sale rumours come from.



thanks for the clarification of the situation above. I never intended to imply that he has no cash in the deal (he would need to have some) but it was my understanding that he and Hicks borrowed heavily to purchase LFC and then stuck the debt financing onto the club.

interesting backstory about how Hicks did not put up his part of their agri-business up for collateral...that would certainly result in acrimony

Gillett made it very clear on Primetime Sports on Friday that he was NOT going to be selling the Habs (but like I said above, i don't believe everything I hear on the radio, even when it comes from a man who appears as upstanding and decent as Gillett)

[rocker]

^The bottom line why would a relatively sucesful franchise, on and off the field, buy into a league like the MLS,

growth. as a whole, MLS has greater growth potential than the USL. This is why all these big name investors want into MLS but not the USL. The USL is already behind MLS in fan support, media coverage etc. They are behind MLS in stadium construction, in the size of markets.

The value of a team is not simply the value it currently holds as a money-maker or money-loser. $40million is to get into a league that could potentially (20 years?) surpass hockey, which is a pretty big business in its own right. Ralph Wilson got Buffalo into the NFL for what we would consider peanuts today, and it turned in a massively valuable operation. MLS is looked at similarly today by investors. Opportunities to get into a new league with great growth potential don't come around too often.

If people are thinking short-term, then yes, staying in a smaller league where you're kicking ass and making money is fine. But I just don't see the upside to the Montreal Impact as it currently stands. They have been a VERY successful team but I can't see them expanding much more and getting 20000 a game or whatever. And the quality of soccer is not bad, but it's still not as good as MLS in terms of pure skill.

[ensco]

This "Montreal is just as well off in USL" argument is bogus, for me.

My guess is that (i) the business case for this investment has declined, as the environment has gotten worse, and (ii) ownership is a little squeezed for cash.

So maybe it doesn't make sense for them right now. An awful lot of businesses are deferring capital investments out there. Do a google news search on "capital spending decline" - hundreds of stories in last few days.

This doesn't mean "it doesn't make sense at all". It means it's really, really bad out there.

[nfitz]

I have to confess I'm one of those guys who stopped going to Expos games in the mid-80's, partly because Olympic Stadium was a pain to get to. Not riding the metro out there, so much, but getting to the metro was a trip in itself.I guess if one lives out in the middle of nowhere, it could be a problem. Montreal (pre-amalgamation at least) is very well covered by the Metro, and with the Deux-Montagne line and the more limited Dorion line (combined with the very fast 211 express bus for off-peak), Olympic stadium wasn't hard to get to.


... and then there was just nothing to do out there but turn around and come back. It's quite different from going to a game downtown with plenty of bars and restaurants close by.??? It's what, 6 stops - about an 10-minute Metro ride - from Pie-IX metro to St. Denis where all the bars and restaurants are.


There are a lot of reasons why no team calls Olympic Stadium home and the location is one of them. It may not be such a big factor for Saputo Stadium, but it would be tough to grow in that location. Montreal is a downtown city, going to a sports event is usually part of an outing, not the entire outing. The Als success should be the model.I really can't fathom these comments given how close Olympic Stadium is to downtown. It sounds like the issue is that if one lives miles from downtown then it can be difficult to get to. But then one isn't a real Montrealer then ...

Sure, Olympic Stadium itself has major issues. With 30,000 fans in it, it has no character and feels empty. Though I was there for Expo and Manic games with over 50,000 and that was always an event! But I think the issues are the stadium - not the location.

[Beach_Red]

This doesn't mean "it doesn't make sense at all". It means it's really, really bad out there.

It really just means it's bad for these particular guys - the other bids are going ahead, aren't they?

Montreal could be a fantastic place for MLS - there's no baseball, no basketball, not really even top minor league teams - really just the Canadiens and the Als. It's a wide open sports market.

I say we call Balsillie and get him to put an MLS team in Montreal with a downtown stadium.;)

[Beach_Red]

I really can't fathom these comments given how close Olympic Stadium is to downtown. It sounds like the issue is that if one lives miles from downtown then it can be difficult to get to. But then one isn't a real Montrealer then ...

Okay, I laughed when I read that, I hope you meant it in a joking way.

There was certainly a time when, even though my family had been in Montreal for many generations, we were told we were not "real Montrealers," but I thought those days were over...

It's true, I moved away in 1991 (when I was 30), and have only visited family since then, so maybe things have changed a lot. And, sure, the biggest problem with Olympic Stadim is the stadium itself and not so much the locations and I hope it goes very well for the Impact there. I'm very disappointed they won't be in the MLS soon, but we'll still have games with them, so that's good.

[nfitz]

I meant it simply geographically - as in if one lives so far from the Metro that one finds it difficult to get to, one is not a Montrealer, but is from Rigaud, St-Jovite, St-Hilaire, Laval, Beaconsfield, etc. In the same way those that live in Newmarket, Milton, and Oshawa are not Torontonians.

Off-hand I can't think of anywhere that was in Montreal in 1991 that was that difficult to get to the Metro - except perhaps Point-Aux-Trembles.

I wasn't trying to get into any bigger political issues!

[Beach_Red]

Off-hand I can't think of anywhere that was in Montreal in 1991 that was that difficult to get to the Metro - except perhaps Point-Aux-Trembles.

I wasn't trying to get into any bigger political issues!

Yeah really, those issues are over. I do think it would be a lot easier to fill a stadium out by Olympic Stadium now than it was fifteen years ago. My dream, actually, is to see a completely renovated Olympic Stadium as home to a soccer team. For all its bad reputation, I saw a lot of Expos games in there and it was great. I also saw a soccer game in that stadium during the Olympics.

When I first saw a picture of Stade Saputo I thought, someday that will be the practise facility for a reno'd Stade Olympique.

In some ways, the popularity of the CFL and university football in Quebec is a great example of what can happen with soccer. When I was a kid in Quebec football was disappearing. I played for Greenfield Park on the South Shore and it was almost an entirely english sport - we almost only played against other english teams (quite different from our hockey team). Now, it's all over the province and yesterday Laval won the Vanier Cup AGAIN.

I don't see why soccer can't become just as big at the university and pro levels as football has - or even bigger.

[GhostPK]

well... that quick cbc discussion makes it seem like MLS screwed over the impact. Garber would be a fool to not invest in some more canadian teams. We do have a good potential market as TFC has shown. Im not saying teams are needed in Olds, Alberta (bet you dont even know where that is) but larger cities like Van, MTL surely have strong markets. As well... both canadian teams can pose instant rivalries with Seattle and Toronto respectively. I think Garber could be making a mistake here.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

im starting to think that, and this is silly, that the MLSdid that on purpose so they can add two american teams who obviously dont have teh same level of bid. EVERYONE thought Montreal was through cuz everything lined up.

[GhostPK]

im starting to think that, and this is silly, that the MLSdid that on purpose so they can add two american teams who obviously dont have teh same level of bid. EVERYONE thought Montreal was through cuz everything lined up.

Im betting that this is the case. Some yankes who think canada is south of mexico probably flashed their KKK dollars in front of Garber to not allow canadian expansion. (this post is not biased at all :p)

[jloome]

He didn't come right out and say it, but Garber's comments at half-time on CBC about Montreal "not being right at this time"(or something like that) very much made it sound like this was a league decision, not Montreal's.

[DigzTFC!]

Canadian bids are just a way of leveraging other bids. Garber pretty much said Canadian expansion hurts American development....he can now safely pick Miami or Atlanta as one of the two bids. If they become successful franchises then he made the right decision. If these markets take off, the entire league benefits through more tv coverage and subsequent corporate sponsorship money. He's running it like a business, not on a football basis. Ever wonder how a guy who comes from a American Football background becomes the commissioner of a soccer league. He doesn't need to know jack about soccer because its about the business model. Fuck, he doesn't even know his own league....because last time I checked Hejduk wasn't spelt Schelotto. The soccer support in a city is immaterial to this guy.

But if these markets fail....its his ass. There is no question that if they go back to Miami and it falls on its face, he is fired.

If he picks a Miami/Atlanta contingent, I would be certain that he doesn't respect any soccer fans in either country.

[RealG-TFC]

im starting to think that, and this is silly, that the MLSdid that on purpose so they can add two american teams who obviously dont have teh same level of bid. EVERYONE thought Montreal was through cuz everything lined up.

Not me. I always thought there was something fishy abou t them. I always thought Vancouver had the better chance of the two.

[ensco]

I would like to point out the obvious, in advance of the spinning coming from Saputo at 10.30am:

1) Saputo will deny to the high heavens that he "pulled out".

2) It may or may not be true - we won't be able to tell

3) Since the public doesn't see any of the bids, none of us can will really be able to say much about what it "means".

[Steve]

I would like to point out the obvious, in advance of the spinning coming from Saputo at 10.30am:

1) Saputo will deny to the high heavens that he "pulled out".

2) It may or may not be true - we won't be able to tell

3) Since the public doesn't see any of the bids, none of us can will really be able to say much about what it "means".

Exactly. We will learn essentially nothing from this press conference.

Here is how I see it:

If Saputo pulled out due to financial issues: He will claim MLS refused his bid to save face, it's never good to advertise the fact you can't get together the money. Plus, pulling out of the bid would piss off some Montreal fans who really wanted to get into MLS (alienating your fan base is always a bad plan).

If MLS denied their bid for any reason: Saputo will claim MLS refused his bid.

Either way, Saputo will say the same thing. I'm not saying we'll never learn the truth, but it won't be as simple as listening to what the players are saying explicitly.

[Hitcho]

This is good news for TFC since we now have one less Canadian team to worry about having to share the thin Canadian talent pool with. Any other Canadian teams joining MLS is ONLY good news if the US/Canada domestic/international player divide is dropped. Otherwise, it hurts TFC.

[flatpicker]

when is this press conference?
is it televised? I assume its probably only on local tv.

[Parkdale]

the presser should be done now. Once we get the word.... let's keep the Impact talk in this thread.

[Vindaloo]

Got some news translated from French from CKAC.....


- Joey Saputo said....Montreal's bid was not withdrawn but rather it had been refused by the League.

- Atlanta and St Louis are phantom bids created to up the franchise fee and assemble more bids.

- MLS sees the success of TFC and fears adding Montreal will be harmful for the sport in the US.

- Montreal were offering $45m fee.

- Montreal were going to expand to 20k seats and have a roof on the east, south, and west stands.

http://www.corussports.com/impact/garber_est_pas_menteur-20081124-1292693.html

[Oblio2]

Got some news translated from French from CKAC.....


- Joey Saputo said....Montreal's bid was not withdrawn but rather it had been refused by the League.

- Atlanta and St Louis are phantom bids created to up the franchise fee and assemble more bids.

- MLS sees the success of TFC and fears adding Montreal will be harmful for the sport in the US.

- Montreal were offering $45m fee.

- Montreal were going to expand to 20k seats and have a roof on the east, south, and west stands.

http://www.corussports.com/impact/garber_est_pas_menteur-20081124-1292693.html


if that is the truth...those Phantom bids.....the worryy of the US expansion...the MLS are douches of the highest order!

[billyfly]

^Wow. Surprised if this is true and Saputo was this honest on dirty laundry. Smells like a conflict b/t MLS and MTL Bid Team, non?

[Vindaloo]

I find it ironic that we know the Vancouver bid thoroughly or transparently regarding financing and stadium and the same with Portland and Miami. Do we know the complete details on St Louis and Atlanta? Perhaps I haven't read enough on those two bids.

[Hitcho]

- MLS sees the success of TFC and fears adding Montreal will be harmful for the sport in the US.

How fucking stupid and short sighted is that??!! What MLS needs right now is to grow the sport in North America, so kicking out bids because they fear the franchise will do well is insane. Besides which TFC has come bottom of the EC both years since inception and we get fucking nailed on roster restrictions and international call ups. How can that possibly be harmful for the sportin the US? And even if Montreal and TFC both start doing really well in terms of results, how will that stop US kids from playing the game at school, and won't the yanks see it as a bit of competition just like when they went mental after the blue jays won the rounders series?!

[massive_magpie]

Well I guess that means Montreal will NEVER get another chance to join the league!

Level of shit slinging is fantastic, eagerly waiting MLS's pitch!

[Beach_Red]

Got some news translated from French from CKAC.....



- MLS sees the success of TFC and fears adding Montreal will be harmful for the sport in the US.




Be interesting to see what he says if either Vancouver or Ottawa get in....

[Parkdale]

HOLY SHIT!!!!

if that is indeed the case, and not just sour grapes coming from Saputo, then Garber is totally fucked. How can a league be run like that?

Suputo also said that he doesn't understand how Melnyk and Ottawa can have a better bid without a stadium (or one that is owned by the goverment?) - my french was a bit iffy on that one.

[arsenal]

How fucking stupid and short sighted is that??!! What MLS needs right now is to grow the sport in North America, so kicking out bids because they fear the franchise will do well is insane. Besides which TFC has come bottom of the EC both years since inception and we get fucking nailed on roster restrictions and international call ups. How can that possibly be harmful for the sportin the US? And even if Montreal and TFC both start doing really well in terms of results, how will that stop US kids from playing the game at school, and won't the yanks see it as a bit of competition just like when they went mental after the blue jays won the rounders series?!

Granted we are talking about MLS here ..... but when Saputo comes out and makes an accusation like that it leads me to believe he is fabricating some/all of this. What better way to get fans in Canada on your side then make it an America versus Canada argument.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Wow thats backwards

[Beach_Red]

Granted we are talking about MLS here ..... but when Saputo comes out and makes an accusation like that it leads me to believe he is fabricating some/all of this. What better way to get fans in Canada on your side then make it an America versus Canada argument.

And why then, exactly, did they reject the Montreal bid now but not Vancouver or Ottawa? What was it specifically about the Montreal bid?

But just to play a little devil's advocate here, why is up to some American league to grow the sport in Canada? Why are we piggy-backing on them?

If Ottawa and Vancouver are both rejected this should start up serious talk about a Canadian league.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Looking forwards to seeing Garbers response to this.
We all know a canadian isnt going to happen.
Be smarter to stay in the USL

[Steve]

So, from that information what I get is this:

Saputo is not a man who believes in firm prices. The entire time Montreal has been trying to get in, Saputo has been trying to bargain down the price of expansion. I don't think he ever truely believed he would have to pay the full price. So, after many month, Saputo offers MLS 45M CND (about 35M USD). He may or may not have used words like "final offer" and "take it or leave it". If he did, he probably didn't mean them (I get the feeling that's just the game he plays). Garber either took him for his word, or just got sick of the constant negotiation, and took Montreal off the table.

The Canadian thing is coming up because of comments Garber made. Here, Garber has been playing politics. By supporting American soccer in the public eye, his US fans back him more, by supporting American soccer when dealing with the Canadian teams, he feels like he has more chips to play, and can hold them to a higher standard. Despite all of this, he can always just claim a Canadian expansion candidate is so much better he had to go with them. He makes comments like "Ottawa is a great bid" in public also to ensure the Canadian expansion candidates don't take him too literally when talking down Canadian Expansion.

The phantom bids thing just tells me that Saputo is pissed. Really pissed. And possibly burning bridges. Maybe the bids are actually phantom bids, maybe they're just weak bids that Garber encouraged to be submitted to show more demand than there is, maybe Saputo just doesn't like the bids personally, so thinks of them as phantom bids. Either way, but publicly accusing the league of doing something like that, he may have stepped out of line (and ensured he would never be awarded an expansion).

[Parkdale]

http://www.corussports.com/impact/garber_est_pas_menteur-20081124-1292693.html



google page translator:

"Garber is not a liar, but ..."-Saputo


(Corus Sports) - Joey Saputo is categorical: the MLS has lacked professionalism in the negotiations leading to obtaining an MLS team in Montreal.


Don Garber, commissioner of the MLS, had to withdraw during the half-time of the final match of the MLS this weekend, saying that Montreal had not removed the file, but instead he had been refused by the League.

Joey Saputo, in a press conference presented Monday morning, said the presentation of the impact would have resulted in no financial problem and that the team would save money on the table when the time comes.

"We have never had the chance to renegotiate. Ils m'ont tous simplement demandé à la dernière minute si l'acceptait ou non de mettre sur la table les 40$ millions pour faire notre entré dans le circuit en plus de payer de ma propre poche les frais pour agrandir le stade. They simply asked me all at the last minute whether to accept or not to table the $ 40 million to our entry into the circuit in addition to paying my own pocket costs to enlarge the stadium. À ce moment là j'ai expliqué qu'il était un tard et que mon offre restait la même. At that time I explained it was a late and my job remained the same. Je crois qu'ils se sont servis de nous pour faire peur aux autres qui espéraient entrer en payant moins que 40$ millions. I think they have used us to scare others who hoped to enter by paying less than $ 40 million. Mais je sais pertinemment qu'ils auront une surprise car la majorité des autres villes candidates ne sont pas prêt à mettre 40$ millions comme frais d'expension.» But I know they have a surprise because the majority of other candidate cities are not ready to put $ 40 million fee as expensive. "

During the presentation, the Impact has unveiled the model of a renovated stadium to 20 000 seats, including the installation of a roof that would cover part of the bleachers East, South and West. Ils ont de plus précisé que l'équipe était prête à joindre les rangs de la MLS dès 2010, et ils sont toujours ouverts à reprendre les négociations pour accéder à la Ligue en 2013. They further stated that the team was ready to join the MLS in 2010, and they are always open to resume negotiations to reach the League in 2013.


Au mois de mars, alors que le dollar canadien se portait mieux, l'Impact avait présenté un projet évalué à 43 millions $ qui comprenant les frais d'adhésion à la Ligue et les rénovations au Stade Saputo, qui aurait alors passé à 18 000 places. In March, while the Canadian dollar was doing better, the Impact had presented a project valued at $ 43 million, which includes membership fees to the League and renovations at Saputo Stadium, which would have increased to 18 000 places.

At a second bid to comply with the request of the League to have a stadium of 20 000 seats, the assessment rose to $ 45 million.

However, when the League indicated that it required $ 40 million in expansion fees, the value of the project rose to $ 70 million, which was simply too much for the organization.

"The MLS is weakening its franchise by being too demanding in its requests for expansion. Avec un projet à 45 millions $, nous aurions pris cinq ans à nous refaire. With a $ 45 million, we would have taken us five years to rebuild. Je ne comprends pas leur façon de penser. I do not understand their thinking. Présentment une famille de 4 personnes peut venir au stade pour 25$, je suis fier de ça et je ne veux pas que ça change.» Presently a family of 4 people can come to the stadium for $ 25, I'm proud of that and I do not want change. "

In addition, the information launched by Don Garber on the financial problems of the team, as well as obtaining public funds to finance the renovations were refuted by the president of the Impact.

"I do not understand how Eugene Melnyk, chairman of the candidacy of Ottawa, may have a better presentation that we stage with a $ 110 million that comes from public funds. Si Melnyk est assez malin pour soutirer 110$ millions du gouvernement, il mérite d'avoir une équipe de la MLS. If Melnyk is smart enough to steal $ 110 million from the government it deserves a team in the MLS. Peut-être n'aurions nous pas dû mettre de chiffres sur la table pour avoir une chance égale? Maybe we would not have put numbers on the table to have an equal chance? Nous avons été une des seules équipes a faire une vrai offre monétaire. We were one of the only teams to make a real money supply. Nous étions la seule équipe à ne pas demander de fonds public dans notre projet, on croyait que ça allait aider notre candidature.» We were the only team not to seek public funds in our project, we thought it would help our bid. "

Saputo has also said that he nominations of Atlanta and St. Louis were "candidates ghosts, created to raise bids. La MLS a vu le succès que sa Ligue a eu à Toronto et craint que le succèes possible à Montréal fasse encore mal paraître son marché américain. The MLS has seen the success that his league has had in Toronto and fears that the succèes possible to make Montreal look bad yet its U.S. market. Chose certaine, si ça doit arriver, les équipes de la MLS vont fermer les portes bien avant celles de la USL.» Certainly, if it should happen, the MLS teams will close the doors before those of the USL. "

In closing, the Impact has indicated that the file of the presentation of the game quarter-final at the Olympic Stadium "still progressing positively."

At the same time, the Impact announced want to build a mini-indoor stadium for use by his team.

[Stouffville_RPB]

And why then, exactly, did they reject the Montreal bid now bit not Vancouver or Ottawa? What was it specifrically about the Montreal bid?

But just to play a little devil's advocate here, why is up to some American league to grow the sport in Canada? Why are we piggy-backing on them?

If Ottawa and Vancouver are both rejected this should start up serious talk about a Canadian league.

A Canadian league with 4 teams? We can't start a league because we won't be able to support it. As much as we all love the sport we are the minority in the country. I'd love/support a Canadian league but it would ultimately go under.



HOLY SHIT!!!!

if that is indeed the case, and not just sour grapes coming from Saputo, then Garber is totally fucked. How can a league be run like that?

Suputo also said that he doesn't understand how Melnyk and Ottawa can have a better bid without a stadium (or one that is owned by the goverment?) - my french was a bit iffy on that one.

I don't know if you watched the MLS Cup but the trophy presentation confirms that he is. At the trophy presentation he presented the cup to Hejduk but introduced him as Schelotto. It was hilarious but seriously the commissioner of the league doesn't know the team captain who is standing right beside him from the league MVP???

Garber is a joke and has the potential to screw up the MLS more than Betman did the NHL.

[MG42]

Just a thought, MLS obviously knows how good the Impact are and I think it would be fair to say that the Impact would be very competitive coming ino the league. Maybe having a Canadian powerhouse team is not in MLS' best interest?

[olegunnar]

So, from that information what I get is this:

Saputo is not a man who believes in firm prices. The entire time Montreal has been trying to get in, Saputo has been trying to bargain down the price of expansion. I don't think he ever truely believed he would have to pay the full price. So, after many month, Saputo offers MLS 45M CND (about 35M USD). He may or may not have used words like "final offer" and "take it or leave it". If he did, he probably didn't mean them (I get the feeling that's just the game he plays). Garber either took him for his word, or just got sick of the constant negotiation, and took Montreal off the table.



I think you hit the nail on the head there.

From MLS's perspective Montreal withdrew their bid because they refused to pay the expansion fee

From Saputo's perspective MLS refused his bid because he was willing to pay a "fair" fee and MLS wouldn't budge (accept it).

[Beach_Red]

A Canadian league with 4 teams? We can't start a league because we won't be able to support it. As much as we all love the sport we are the minority in the country. I'd love/support a Canadian league but it would ultimately go under.


I don't know if you watched the MLS Cup but the trophy presentation confirms that he is. At the trophy presentation he presented the cup to Hejduk but introduced him as Schelotto. It was hilarious but seriously the commissioner of the league doesn't know the team captain who is standing right beside him from the league MVP???

Garber is a joke and has the potential to screw up the MLS more than Betman did the NHL.

Those two statements together say something. The MLS is a joke, so maybe a Canadian league wouldn't go under. It wouldn't be a huge hit right away, but it could work.

IF Ottawa does get into the MLS then we'll have four teams in the Canadian Championship. Could four-six more teams want to join? Is an 8-10 team league possible?

[Stouffville_RPB]

Those two statements together say something. The MLS is a joke, so maybe a Canadian league wouldn't go under. It wouldn't be a huge hit right away, but it could work.

IF Ottawa does get into the MLS then we'll have four teams in the Canadian Championship. Could four-six more teams want to join? Is an 8-10 team league possible?

I think the main problem would come in finding the other 4-6 owners, then finding decent enough talent to make the league respectable.

[trane]

I have to take what Saputo is saying with a grain of salt as it is clearly coming from an interested party. However, if it were true it would not suprise me that it reflects GArber's/MLS's submission quite accuratley.

[trane]

I think the main problem would come in finding the other 4-6 owners, then finding decent enough talent to make the league respectable.


I would not mind having three big clubs, TFC, Impact and the Sounders, and then a bunch of second level teams. These three franchises would be as healthy as any in the US.

[Parkdale]

as for Saputo's comment:

Presently a family of 4 people can come to the stadium for $ 25, I'm proud of that and I do not want change.

sorry, but that's just not how things are done in the MLS.

[Parkdale]

I would not mind having three big clubs, TFC, Impact and the Sounders, and then a bunch of second level teams. These three franchises would be as healthy as any in the US.


psst. Seattle is in the USA.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9811/28/bus.crash.02/map.seattle.jpg

[flatpicker]

Those two statements together say something. The MLS is a joke, so maybe a Canadian league wouldn't go under. It wouldn't be a huge hit right away, but it could work.

IF Ottawa does get into the MLS then we'll have four teams in the Canadian Championship. Could four-six more teams want to join? Is an 8-10 team league possible?


I would say a Canadian league is a long shot.

I would rather more Canadian teams make up a Canadian Conference within the MLS...
maybe eventually become independent if things go well.

but... long shot...

[trane]

psst. Seattle is in the USA.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9811/28/bus.crash.02/map.seattle.jpg

Thanks, smart ass, I meant Vancouver. :mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Stouffville_RPB]

It's too hard for a Canadian league to go up againist an American league. With less money and less people it's tough. Plus as much as we like to seperate ourselves from America we seem all too quick to promote American sports over its Canadian counterparts, NFL vs CFL for example. A Canadian league would most likely attract MLS cast-offs.

[Parkdale]

Thanks, smart ass, I meant Vancouver. :mad::mad::mad::mad:


me? a smart ass? never

:cool:

[trane]

Whitecaps, thats what they are called Vancouver Witcaps. I like their uniforms.

[Beach_Red]

It's too hard for a Canadian league to go up againist an American league. With less money and less people it's tough. Plus as much as we like to seperate ourselves from America we seem all too quick to promote American sports over its Canadian counterparts, NFL vs CFL for example. A Canadian league would most likely attract MLS cast-offs.

Maybe. But maybe not in soccer because it's not an American sport. the CFL-NFL comparison doesn't work. Same with attracting players - that's all about salary caps but there's no shortage of soccer players in the world - unlike American football players, other than Canada and the US no one else produces any.

But while we're talking about the CFL it's a pretty good model of a successful Canadian League. Sure, it's always whining but it keeps rolling along. there's no reason why a Canadian soccer league couldn't attract as many fans and just as much TV ratings. Add to that stuff like Champions League play and a Canadian League could do really well.

Maybe the CFL also has the right idea in community ownership, the way it's done with Sask, Winnipeg and the Eskimos. In fact, those three community groups should be approached about partnering with soccer teams.

[james]

this is horse shit!

Give Montreal a team!

[james]

Whitecaps, thats what they are called Vancouver Witcaps. I like their uniforms.

names fine and colours and design is fine but..........i just think they need a real crest, not this crest that looks like one you would have in a little kids league. And they need a sponsor on the front!

[Chewy Unikronik]

Granted we are talking about MLS here ..... but when Saputo comes out and makes an accusation like that it leads me to believe he is fabricating some/all of this. What better way to get fans in Canada on your side then make it an America versus Canada argument.
Well, Garber did say just that...

...he also darkly noted he does not want to “jeopardize” the growth of soccer in the United States.

[troy1982]

I don't trust Joey on this, he has always seem slimy to me
if Joey couldn't/didn't want to pay the full $40M expansion fee, that says all you need to know about what type of owner he would have been. With strong bids like Barca Miami, St. Louis, Vancouver, Portland, Atlanta and Ottawa ... he thought Montreal was so attractive that he could (1) be a shoe-in for one of the two bids and (2) get it for less money than all the other competitors.

I just don't under stand why he would not pay the expansion fee if everyone else is.
it's simple why he didn't get it, 35 million is not 40 million simple as that.

And the shit he is saying about St. Louis and Atlanta will burn some bridges so Montreal will never get in. Like how would he know if any of the bids are phantom, its not like if they wre they would tell him.

[TFC07]

Seriously, Canada needs to start their own league. MLS is going to kill USL and while not accepting more Canadian teams because fear of losing money from US TV and sponsors in the future.

[Mark in Ottawa]

Impact prez balked at MLS expansion free
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2008/11/24/MLS-Impact-0/

[Strikers]

I don't trust Joey on this, he has always seem slimy to me



I agree, he has spoken against MLS in the past, and now is making excuses for being left out of the bidding. I think there is more going on
than we are lead to believe.

[Vindaloo]

The Canadian Press
November 24, 2008 at 2:23 PM EST

MONTREAL — The Montreal Impact are still interested in joining Major League Soccer, but “not at any price,” team president Joey Saputo said Monday.

The United Soccer Leagues club had its bid for a 2011 expansion franchise in MLS rejected last week for reasons still unclear to Saputo.
It especially irked the Impact that MLS commissioner Don Garber announced on Friday that Montreal had withdrawn its bid because it was having trouble raising the money, although Saputo said he later revised that statement to say the bid had not been retained by the league.

“I'm disappointed — the bid was taken out without explanation,” said Saputo. “Does MLS really want Montreal? I don't know.”
MLS was demanding a $40-million (U.S.) expansion fee, a fourfold increase from what Toronto FC paid to get in three years ago, plus an expansion of Saputo Stadium, which currently seats about 13,000.

Saputo said the Impact's bid was $45-million for the expansion fee plus the cost of adding a new grandstand. He said the club's proven record of drawing fans and putting a strong team on the field should have made the bid acceptable.

“We were OK with that (amount), without hurting where we are today and without hurting our plans for the future,” said Saputo, whose team has been an attendance leader in the USL and its predecessor, the A-League, for 15 years. “We thought we had a sound bid.”

He said paying the fee MLS demanded and enlarging the stadium would drive ticket prices past the point of being affordable for families.
And he questioned whether the six other cities still in the bidding for 2011 — Ottawa, Vancouver, St. Louis, Miami, Atlanta and Portland, Ore. — are really ready to pay $40-million (U.S.). He said some did not include a fee in their bids.

“Maybe the mistake I made was to put in a price,” he added.

Saputo is a partner in the MLS project of Montreal Canadiens owner George Gillett, who co-owns Liverpool FC with Tom Hicks. To join MLS, the Impact was ready to shed its current status as a non-profit company.

Saputo is also confident his club will be able to play its CONCACAF quarter-final indoors at 55,000-seat Olympic Stadium.

http://www.globesports.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081124.wsptimpact1124/GSStory/GlobeSportsSoccer/home

[troy1982]

The Canadian Press
November 24, 2008 at 2:23 PM EST

MONTREAL — The Montreal Impact are still interested in joining Major League Soccer, but “not at any price,” team president Joey Saputo said Monday.

The United Soccer Leagues club had its bid for a 2011 expansion franchise in MLS rejected last week for reasons still unclear to Saputo.
It especially irked the Impact that MLS commissioner Don Garber announced on Friday that Montreal had withdrawn its bid because it was having trouble raising the money, although Saputo said he later revised that statement to say the bid had not been retained by the league.

“I'm disappointed — the bid was taken out without explanation,” said Saputo. “Does MLS really want Montreal? I don't know.”
MLS was demanding a $40-million (U.S.) expansion fee, a fourfold increase from what Toronto FC paid to get in three years ago, plus an expansion of Saputo Stadium, which currently seats about 13,000.

Saputo said the Impact's bid was $45-million for the expansion fee plus the cost of adding a new grandstand. He said the club's proven record of drawing fans and putting a strong team on the field should have made the bid acceptable.

“We were OK with that (amount), without hurting where we are today and without hurting our plans for the future,” said Saputo, whose team has been an attendance leader in the USL and its predecessor, the A-League, for 15 years. “We thought we had a sound bid.”

He said paying the fee MLS demanded and enlarging the stadium would drive ticket prices past the point of being affordable for families.
And he questioned whether the six other cities still in the bidding for 2011 — Ottawa, Vancouver, St. Louis, Miami, Atlanta and Portland, Ore. — are really ready to pay $40-million (U.S.). He said some did not include a fee in their bids.

“Maybe the mistake I made was to put in a price,” he added.

Saputo is a partner in the MLS project of Montreal Canadiens owner George Gillett, who co-owns Liverpool FC with Tom Hicks. To join MLS, the Impact was ready to shed its current status as a non-profit company.

Saputo is also confident his club will be able to play its CONCACAF quarter-final indoors at 55,000-seat Olympic Stadium.

http://www.globesports.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081124.wsptimpact1124/GSStory/GlobeSportsSoccer/home (http://www.globesports.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081124.wsptimpact1124/GSStory/GlobeSportsSoccer/home)


The article doesn't make it clare that Joey was offering 45 million canadian which is 35 million US

[Vindaloo]

In a nutshell what I get from this all these reports....

MLS required US$40m and a stadium of at least 20k seats and that to have been in their official bid when it was handed into MLS as of 15 October 2008. Nothing less.

Montreal did not have these requirements. It was offering C$35-36m, expanded stadium, and a strong team and attendance.

[james]

MLS does ask for to much money, $40 mil is a bit crazy. The league is not worth that much, MLS use quick grab cash from expansion teams as quick fix problems. But i can see this hurting the league further down the road.

Many of these teams paying huge bucks may end up broke one day....or they may just give a team to any city that has money without looking into it if the city could actually ever support a MLS club!

[trane]

There shuold be more to ading franchises then price. The Impact, is the most attractive prosepct out there, them and Vancouver, exsisting succesfull franchises.

[troy1982]

In a nutshell what I get from this....

MLS required US$40m and a stadium of at least 20k seats and that to have been in their official bid when it was handed into MLS as of 15 October 2008. Nothing less.

Montreal did not have these requirements.

The funny thing was that Joey was bad mouthing MLS and saying it was a bad model 5 years ago when he could have joined for 5 million.

[troy1982]

There shuold be more to ading franchises then price. The Impact, is the most attractive prosepct out there, them and Vancouver, exsisting succesfull franchises.

There is more to it but when the league states the expansion fee for all the applicants, don't think you will get in with a lower bid especially with such strong competition. that's what Joey thought and it backfired

[Vindaloo]

from the CP article - And he questioned whether the six other cities still in the bidding for 2011 — Ottawa, Vancouver, St. Louis, Miami, Atlanta and Portland, Ore. — are really ready to pay $40-million (U.S.). He said some did not include a fee in their bids.“Maybe the mistake I made was to put in a price,” he added.

Hypothetically, I wonder which bids didn't put in a fee amount.

- I feel confident Vancouver did, as the Caps have said they would pay it. The temp stadium is already done and paid for. Garber even said it's one of the best presentations he has ever seen. He said about the same for Ottawa. They must have included the fee.

- Portland has said that Paulson would pay the expansion fee but the city has to pay for the stadium refurb.

- St Louis. We know nothing about it's additional investors.

- Miami. I'll take a guess and say they put in the bid money. Their temp/permanent stadium is already done.

- Atlanta. We know the owner but what about a stadium?

- Ottawa I feel involved the expansion fee. Their stadium project might involve public funds?


So far, I think Vancouver and Miami are in the driver's seat.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

ill put money on the two new expansion teams being both american

[Stouffville_RPB]

ill put money on the two new expansion teams being both american


As much as I hope that your wrong my head says you're probably right. Miami and Portland. :mad:

[brad]

I think Miami are a sure bet because of the Barcelona connection.

[Wooster_TFC]

Take this all with a grain of salt, and then get a proper translation of the speech.

Just so everyone is aware, the $45 million canadian was not for the expansion fee alone, it also included the cost of the stadium expansion. The french version states that if the league had required a $40 million expansion fee, then the cost would reach $70 million, which they were not prepared to cover.

The league called up Montreal and asked them to raise their bid, and Montreal said that their offer stood without change. To me, that doesn't seem like negotiating, especially when you are off by approximately $25 million (70-45 = 25).

To be honest, Montreal not being in the league seems like Montreal's fault, and their's alone.

[Blizzard]

from the CP article - And he questioned whether the six other cities still in the bidding for 2011 — Ottawa, Vancouver, St. Louis, Miami, Atlanta and Portland, Ore. — are really ready to pay $40-million (U.S.). He said some did not include a fee in their bids.“Maybe the mistake I made was to put in a price,” he added.

Hypothetically, I wonder which bids didn't put in a fee amount.

- I feel confident Vancouver did, as the Caps have said they would pay it. The temp stadium is already done and paid for. Garber even said it's one of the best presentations he has ever seen. He said about the same for Ottawa. They must have included the fee.

- Portland has said that Paulson would pay the expansion fee but the city has to pay for the stadium refurb.

- St Louis. We know nothing about it's additional investors.

- Miami. I'll take a guess and say they put in the bid money. Their temp/permanent stadium is already done.

- Atlanta. We know the owner but what about a stadium?

- Ottawa I feel involved the expansion fee. Their stadium project might involve public funds?


So far, I think Vancouver and Miami are in the driver's seat.

The thing about Joey's comment is, the other didn't put a figure in because they all knew it was $40 million. $40 million it is and it is $40 million.

Montreal offered less! So long Montreal!

[Ossington Mental Youth]

As much as I hope that your wrong my head says you're probably right. Miami and Portland. :mad:

yep, even more ridiculous as fucking miamis going to be playing on a university football field with no distant plans for a stadium.

prob also be called BarcaMiami or some horseshit

[nfitz]

Saputo seems pretty cheesed off!

[Parkdale]

yep, even more ridiculous as fucking miamis going to be playing on a university football field with no distant plans for a stadium.

prob also be called BarcaMiami or some horseshit


really? what ever happened to that SSS requirement for new teams?

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Down the toilet when Seattle joined

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

Saputo seems pretty cheesed off!


if he offered less then what the league was asking, then he got what he deserved. MLS does not need bush league operations..bye bye Impact.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

its more a preference than it is a requirement (its required for some and not so much for others)

[NF-FC]

MLS does ask for to much money, $40 mil is a bit crazy. The league is not worth that much, MLS use quick grab cash from expansion teams as quick fix problems. But i can see this hurting the league further down the road.

Many of these teams paying huge bucks may end up broke one day....or they may just give a team to any city that has money without looking into it if the city could actually ever support a MLS club!

This sounds too familiar, I think there was a hockey league that did this. Wonder how it worked out for them?

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

So he figured he could low ball MLS on the expansion price, but did he really think he would get in? MLS has to act on these cheap owner types
and get the good ones that are willing to be part of the League. Saputo gamble on building at 15,000 seat stadium when he knew MLS required
a minimum 20,000 seat stadium. The lowballed the league on expansion
fees? Did he really want to be part of Major League Soccer? NO, he just wanted to save face with the Montreal soccer public by attempting a bid
he knew would be rejected and now he can blame MLS....To Joey Saputo, you have hurt Canadian soccer more the the CSA ever could but, if will be a quick heal. What will you have to pay the next time MLS expands Mr Saputo....$45-50 million USD...yes you made a great decision:rolleyes:

[Vindaloo]

The term Soccer Specific Stadium, which is an American invented word, does not necessarily have to have just soccer played in it. It also can accommodate rugby, grid-iron, or even lacrosse. It's the smaller seating capacity creating an intimate atmosphere which lends to the definition. The term itself is stupid. It should either be 'soccer stadium' or a term for a stadium not using 'soccer' in it if there will be other sports using the venue.

Under this SSS definition, for which MLS has said it prefers in it's franchises, BC Place(new roofing configurations creating 22k seats), and Portland(will share with grid-iron team), and Seattle(sharing with NFL and blocking off upper seats with tarps) are acceptable. Miami will play in a 45k seat stadium but we don't know if the upper deck will be tarped.

MLS has never said what it defines as 'SSS'. Until they do then it's a free for all. It has just said it prefers stadia which seat around the 20k mark creating an intimate atmosphere. In fact I don't even think they've stated the latter part. I don't think MLS has gone on record to say they 'want' soccer, grass, roofing, etc., only. Even though they would probably like to.

[ensco]

Montreal offered less than MLS asked for and MLS made the business decision to tell Montreal to go home, in order to send a message to the other bidders that the price is not negotiable. This is not an uncommon occurrence when there's competition for an asset. Happens every day (or used to happen anyway!) in the real estate business, when there's competition for a house for sale. It's what you do as the seller when you want to send the message you're playing a strong hand.

If Saputo were willing to pay more he could have gone back to the league quickly, and the whole thing would have been passed off as a clerical mistake or misunderstanding. If he wasn't willing to pay more, he could have just said "there were financial and other conditions we were asked to meet that we didn't think made sense. We could have met them, but they didn't make sense for us. Maybe next time"

Instead Saputo acts like a child, runs his mouth off, and makes sure that Montreal will never, ever come into MLS.

Great.

(It may also be that MLS was uncomfortable with the Saputo/Gillett team, but didn't want to let it get to the point where they would have to make the call, so forced this issue early)

[Don Julio]

The NHL's expansion failure was due to putting teams where hockey was specifically not popular, and expecting them to adopt it like 3rd generation Canadians.

Also didn't Saputo pull this exact stunt before TFC existed? He should stick to selling cheese, the negotiating is less complicated.

[nascarguy]

next time it will be 60 to 70 millon

[Toronto Ruffrider]

The term Soccer Specific Stadium, which is an American invented word, does not necessarily have to have just soccer played in it. It also can accommodate rugby, grid-iron, or even lacrosse. It's the smaller seating capacity creating an intimate atmosphere which lends to the definition. The term itself is stupid. It should either be 'soccer stadium' or a term for a stadium not using 'soccer' in it if there will be other sports using the venue.

Under this SSS definition, for which MLS has said it prefers in it's franchises, BC Place(new roofing configurations creating 22k seats), and Portland(will share with grid-iron team), and Seattle(sharing with NFL and blocking off upper seats with tarps) are acceptable. Miami will play in a 45k seat stadium but we don't know if the upper deck will be tarped.

MLS has never said what it defines as 'SSS'. Until they do then it's a free for all. It has just said it prefers stadia which seat around the 20k mark creating an intimate atmosphere. In fact I don't even think they've stated the latter part. I don't think MLS has gone on record to say they 'want' soccer, grass, roofing, etc., only. Even though they would probably like to.

I always assumed the term 'SSS' had more of a base in economics than in the sport that it's based on. Playing in a moderately-sized stadium without gridiron lines certainly has its advantages, but the real advantage of a SSS is it allows team owners to better control their revenues and expenses. If a team plays in its own stadium, the owner of that team not only doesn't have to pay a hefty lease, but actually makes money on lucrative concessions and parking revenue.

Based on the economic advantages of SSSs, there is no need for either New England or Seattle to move to soccer stadiums, as each team's respective ownership group already controls its venue revenues and expenses. Vancouver, on the other hand, will have to move into a new stadium eventually, as Greg Kerfoot et al do not own BC Place, and they don't have a lucrative lease agreement that I know of.

[tfc]

well that is just a really dumb comment.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

more opinion than news here

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

next time it will be 60 to 70 millon


that wouldn't be a surprise either, then Saputo would offer up only 50 Million just to look good.

[gmacpheetfc]

whats going on with PHili's bid any chance Montreal fast tracks as phili investors were hit hard from economics crisis

[Beach_Red]

Instead Saputo acts like a child, runs his mouth off, and makes sure that Montreal will never, ever come into MLS.

Great.

(It may also be that MLS was uncomfortable with the Saputo/Gillett team, but didn't want to let it get to the point where they would have to make the call, so forced this issue early)

Yes, if Montreal really is a good market, someone else may step up. Of course, they couldn't find local ownership for the Expos or the Canadiens so there may not be anyone else willing to put a team in Montreal.

Unless they do like Miami and Marsielles or someone comes in....

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

whats going on with PHili's bid any chance Montreal fast tracks as phili investors were hit hard from economics crisis


Philadelphia is still on track even though thier investors are going thrrought the financial troubles. If they get through this all should be fine.
If they backtrack like Montreal did they would face even higher expansion fees later on.

[jabbronies]

Well, I'm sure they looked at the MLS market and thought it wasn't a good move with the whole finacial crisis going on right now.

I mean, financially they are sitting pretty right now, they fill their stadium and, correct me if I'm wrong, but the costs to run the team are not as high as an MLS team would be.

To drop 40Mil, increae thier team salary and renovate a stadium in hard financial times isn't the smartest move for a business. The league is not going to do well financially next year IMO. Lets not forget the league is a small US league. If people are going to stop going to a sporting event to try and save cash, it will be MLS.

[flatpicker]

did the other thread on this topic run out of pages?

[Hitcho]

did the other thread on this topic run out of pages?

:rofl:

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

Well, I'm sure they looked at the MLS market and thought it wasn't a good move with the whole finacial crisis going on right now.

I mean, financially they are sitting pretty right now, they fill their stadium and, correct me if I'm wrong, but the costs to run the team are not as high as an MLS team would be.

To drop 40Mil, increae thier team salary and renovate a stadium in hard financial times isn't the smartest move for a business. The league is not going to do well financially next year IMO. Lets not forget the league is a small US league. If people are going to stop going to a sporting event to try and save cash, it will be MLS.

I believe MLS will do well next year, with another strong team entering with Seattle and their 18,000 season ticket holders, MLS should be even
better. With Columbus championship maybe more folks in Ohiowill get out and give the crew the support they deserve. As far as the Impact and the USL go, Montreal may be there for a while, if you turn down a chance to join the big party...??

[Hitcho]

Mods - this should be emrged with the pre-existing thread on this point...

[GeorgeB]

poor Montreal, not enough money to play with the big boys.first the formula one guys cut em loose and now Garber.i think the realization will sink in that aside from Nightlife and Poutine no one cares much about the place. i guess thats what you get for being a bunch of arrogant douchebags.

[Toronto_Bhoy]

I don't trust either of these two fuckin' clowns.

But one thing I'll say is $40+ million for an MLS franchise is ridiculous. Supato has drawn a line in the sand…others might well cross it but I see this league going down a blind alley. You have a Cup Final yesterday with empty seats despite “papering” the stands!?! They could give tickets away to fill the place in the second largest market in the country!?! Wait for the TV numbers…

This has the NHL written all over it.

The future economic climate has league contraction in the cards! Like Trane said…the MLS should be looking at expansion beyond the dollars…Montreal is by far the best bid…look forward to seeing TFC playing before spectators disguised as empty seats in an MLS stadium near you…

[ensco]

But one thing I'll say is $40+ million for an MLS franchise is ridiculous. Supato has drawn a line in the sand…others might well cross it but I see this league going down a blind alley. You have a Cup Final yesterday with empty seats despite “papering” the stands!?! They could give tickets away to fill the place in the second largest market in the country!?! Wait for the TV numbers…

This has the NHL written all over it.

The future economic climate has league contraction in the cards! Like Trane said…the MLS should be looking at expansion beyond the dollars…Montreal is by far the best bid…look forward to seeing TFC playing before spectators disguised as empty seats in an MLS stadium near you…

You are right about everything there, except for the implied endorsement of Saputo's "drawing a line in the sand". How can you conclude anything other than Saputo is a moron?

A serious businessman wouldn't deal with it this way. He'd be positioning himself to be the future saviour for a failing team (like a Chivas or a Columbus) and relocate it.

If Saputo had just shut up, he had a chance to eventually get a team at his price.

Now that won't likely be possible, because MLS will remember that he's a loud mouth jerk who called them a bunch of names. Saputo has conducted himself like a complete fool.

[Canary Canuck]

did the other thread on this topic run out of pages?

I was thinking the same thing until I realized mightytorontofc2008 started it. Just mighty being mighty

[GeorgeB]

You may be right, but so what? A serious businessman wouldn't deal with it this way. He'd be positioning himself to be the future saviour for a failing team (like a Chivas or a Columbus) and relocate it.

Now that won't be possible. Saputo has conducted himself like a complete fool. a public relations nightmare considering the francise fee was non-negotiable criteria.stadium criteria was definately flexible.

[Roogsy]

poor Montreal, not enough money to play with the big boys.first the formula one guys cut em loose and now Garber.i think the realization will sink in that aside from Nightlife and Poutine no one cares much about the place. i guess thats what you get for being a bunch of arrogant douchebags.

Don't forget the hot easy girls!

[Parkdale]

Unless they do like Miami and Marsielles or someone comes in....



OH YES PLEASE!!!!!!
(yes, Marseilles is my European team)

personally, I think Saputo didn't handle the situation well, but was the lesser of two evils. The Impact was the best bid by far and it's a shame they wont be joining the MLS. When I say they were the best bid, I'm looking at ONE thing - they are the best soccer team, with the best record, and a decent stadium as a bonus. Yes, that's 3 things, but none of them are backroom politics. They have a very successful team, with proud fans. They are already 90% of the way to being an MLS team. Other bids like Miami and St.louis would love to have what they do in Montreal.

Not having Montreal is a loss for the MLS. Garber should have budged on the price.

[celt-nick]

OH YES PLEASE!!!!!!
(yes, Marseilles is my European team)

Not having Montreal is a loss for the MLS.

So true....I love to hate the impact!

[Parkdale]

So true....I love to hate the impact!

exactly.

Why do they keep shoving this Crew rivalry down our throats when there's already the Toronto-Montreal one right there? Getting Montreal into the MLS would have done wonders for traveling support. Every team on the east Coast would have sent a bus there. That would be great for the league. I can get excited about going to see Miami and Seatle, but St.Louis? Not one bit

[trane]

OH YES PLEASE!!!!!!
(yes, Marseilles is my European team)

personally, I think Saputo didn't handle the situation well, but was the lesser of two evils. The Impact was the best bid by far and it's a shame they wont be joining the MLS. When I say they were the best bid, I'm looking at ONE thing - they are the best soccer team, with the best record, and a decent stadium as a bonus. Yes, that's 3 things, but none of them are backroom politics. They have a very successful team, with proud fans. They are already 90% of the way to being an MLS team. Other bids like Miami and St.louis would love to have what they do in Montreal.

Not having Montreal is a loss for the MLS. Garber should have budged on the price.

That is the bottom line. There is more advantage to the MLS to Montreal joining, then just the cash. Garber should have understood that.

[Beach_Red]

This has the NHL written all over it.

The future economic climate has league contraction in the cards! Like Trane said…the MLS should be looking at expansion beyond the dollars…Montreal is by far the best bid…look forward to seeing TFC playing before spectators disguised as empty seats in an MLS stadium near you…

And it's doubly frustrating because MLS doesn't HAVE TO be the NHL. Hockey is an expensive game for kids to play, it's tough to build at the grassroots and it's gone as far in the world as it can. Pretty much the opposite of soccer.

[Heathen]

If this is true. Good.
Mount fucking Royal should join her sister city in the U.fuckinS.
Columbus.
Now I look forward to my trip to Rochester to see the Rhinos pumel these 'oh we are a world class city' stools.
The sooner these guys seperate from this great nation, the better.
KD.

:iagree:

although any additional opportunities to use my "General Wolfe's Red and White Army" banner would be a bonus

[ensco]

That is the bottom line. There is more advantage to the MLS to Montreal joining, then just the cash. Garber should have understood that.

I've got to say, I don't understand this school of thought (and yes, I was really hoping for Montreal also).

From a business point of view, Montreal is North America's 30th largest market, is a city where most of the city speaks a language unique to itself in North America, and has a history of political unrest, and policies that are unfriendly to non-Quebec domiciled businesses. It adds nothing to MLS' existing or potential broadcast arrangements.

They have a nice new stadium and get 10-12K fans out regularly for minor league soccer. Is that really all that meaningful?

I was born there. I love it there. But who are we kidding? No North America-scale business has to be in Montreal.

[mednus]

MLS loses more here than the Impact.

Montreal is a well run professional organization.
Has its own Private Stadium.
Dosent seem to need MLS to sell tickets, win chamionships, compete internationally
Can grow professional soccer in Quebec just as well in the USL.

We are not talking about the Lynx here , the IMPACT are and will remain strong with or without MLS.

[Roogsy]

MLS loses more here than the Impact.

Montreal is a well run professional organization.
Has its own Private Stadium.
Dosent seem to need MLS to sell tickets, win chamionships, compete internationally
Can grow professional soccer in Quebec just as well in the USL.

We are not talking about the Lynx here , the IMPACT are and will remain strong with or without MLS.

True...and the MLS may wind up with another KC or Columbus on their hands when they could have had the best Canadian derby since the Oilers/Flames, Leafs/Habs and Northern vs North Toronto!

[rocker]

Why did Saputo say St. Louis is a phantom bid when St.Louis has been working with a city council there and the council has put a plan in for a whole neighbourhood development around the stadium?
Sounds like sour grapes to me. Maybe Atlanta is a faker, but St. Louis? That would be one complex scam ...

I also think Saputo's plans for expanding the stadium were a joke. I know BMO ain't no Cadillac, but it's still way better than Stade Saputo. SS doesn't even have space for concessions or washrooms under the two stands. And fans on the covered side walk down right on the field to exit. I also hear you can't see the sideline from some seats. There are also some obstructed view under the roofed stand... plus only a third of the private boxes at BMO. I seriously doubt Garber wants to be sharing revenue from that kind of a stadium. Gotta maximize...

And now with stadia like Red Bull Arena and Rio Tinto opening up, you can't just stick a grandstand up on the empty end (even with a roof) and say you're up to standard.

Saputo is cheap. And that comment about the "family of four" price sounds like he wants soccer moms at the games.

[Parkdale]

simple: If MLS wants to market itself as an international caliber league, then getting Montreal on board would have given then instant 'European Credibility'. Sure we all know that Montreal isn't Europe, but it's about as close as you can get in North America. Plus they have a predominately mexican team (Chivas) so why not make one that's predominately French?

Beyond that, the MLS wants each team to have an identity. that's good for the league. There's really no difference between RSL and KCW. There's a huge difference between NYRB and the Fire. Montreal would have given the league some much needed diversity.

[SoccMan]

Garber and MLS of course are in the right here. The fee is 40 million, what part of 40 million did Saputo not understand. It's not negotiable, who does Saputo think he is dealing with here. You can critisize the MLS all you want, however, when it comes to something like this, they have to be firm. You either have the 40 million or you don't. That is the expansion fee, if you don't have it or you can't afford it, then don't apply, it's simple as that.

[Parkdale]

You either have the 40 million or you don't. That is the expansion fee, if you don't have it or you can't afford it, then don't apply, it's simple as that.


does that fee go up every year? how many years would one team have to wait to get in? The Impact has been around longer than top tier soccer in this city, so maybe they were looking at joining back when it was only 10 million? Sure it's easy to say that it's all about the money, but there's so much more than just the cash. I'd rather have a strong, small team join instead of just a rich owner.

[Beach_Red]

simple: If MLS wants to market itself as an international caliber league, then getting Montreal on board would have given then instant 'European Credibility'. Sure we all know that Montreal isn't Europe, but it's about as close as you can get in North America. Plus they have a predominately mexican team (Chivas) so why not make one that's predominately French?

Beyond that, the MLS wants each team to have an identity. that's good for the league. There's really no difference between RSL and KCW. There's a huge difference between NYRB and the Fire. Montreal would have given the league some much needed diversity.

Yeah, but is the Impact predominately French? Do they represent all of Montreal or are they kind of the Montreal Italia?

[wzhxvy]

At the end of the day the fromage boy did not have the money because Gillete bailed and he didnt want to go it alone...the rest is a bunch of egomaniacal crap...too bad but I do not support TFC because I hate the Impact...so who cares, Montreal is no longer a top tier NA city and has not been for some time.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

True...and the MLS may wind up with another KC or Columbus on their hands when they could have had the best Canadian derby since the Oilers/Flames, Leafs/Habs and Northern vs North Toronto!
Montreal didnt play by the rules so they have themselves to blame. Yes it would have been a great rivalry. Habs/leafs?/ Any Habs fan will tell you that the Bruins are their rivals, not the Leafs, that has more to do with the leafs being in the Norris division for all those years. The Impact sad to say will be on the MLS sidelines for a while, they had a chance and blew it.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

Garber and MLS of course are in the right here. The fee is 40 million, what part of 40 million did Saputo not understand. It's not negotiable, who does Saputo think he is dealing with here. You can critisize the MLS all you want, however, when it comes to something like this, they have to be firm. You either have the 40 million or you don't. That is the expansion fee, if you don't have it or you can't afford it, then don't apply, it's simple as that.


Saputo shot himself and the club down from future MLS expansion,
it will take MLS 7-10 years before looking at Montreal again. Saputo
was trying for the cheap way him and got a kick in the ass for trying it.
Bye Bye Impact enjoy USL..Montreal tier 2 city!!