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Fort York Redcoat
11-06-2008, 11:10 AM
I've been listening to pods on the dismal turnouts to the MLs playoffs this year and I can't help but agree with the majority of them that it's a waste of time.

I've heard the line "It's how we do things over here" but it seems that less people "do" that thing than in the regular season. Now I know the excuses of competition with bigger American sports and bad weather but don't those very reasons call for a change? It seems like the American anti-cup sentiment is starting to recede so I ask you all:

Why not have a league cup throughout the season when the highest attendance shows up?

CoachGT
11-06-2008, 11:28 AM
Much like continuously hearing that we don't do relegation/promotion. That's not really true, although it may be at professional levels. Ask any rep soccer coach about it, and they will tell you that they've had teams promoted or relegated. Can't speak for the US but it does happen here (at least, in Ontario).

Beach_Red
11-06-2008, 11:29 AM
It's too early to give up on playoffs. The MLS is just now starting to make a move towards the "big four" of US sports and to get into that club it's going to have to look as much like the others as it can.

If there were no playoffs, the drop-off in attendance we're seeing now would have started in August as teams were eliminated from being cup contenders. If there was relegation/promotion then a couple of teams might have maintained a little interest, but probably not. The idea you could get relegated is a lot different than the idea that you could get into the playoffs and make a serious run and it's not enough of a prize for American sports fans (and really, it never affects the top teams).

If there was one sport that dominated the US it could be run like that, but in this market it would be a huge mistake.

Yohan
11-06-2008, 11:34 AM
Why not have a league cup throughout the season when the highest attendance shows up?
Well, there is already the US Open Cup. Plus Superliga, and you have enough cups.

Fort York Redcoat
11-06-2008, 11:45 AM
Well, there is already the US Open Cup. Plus Superliga, and you have enough cups.

Cute. But I think we're well aware of those cups and their worth.

I can't agree with the argument of an August drop off with out playoffs because the people you would lose there are minimal with less competition from the major American sports. It gives MLS a fighting chance. The league cup would give smaller teams (and most of them are on par as it is) something to keep fans in the stadium.

I realize there's been a lot of change recently but I think with a littlle more it could be really beneficial to the league.

Beach_Red
11-06-2008, 11:51 AM
I realize there's been a lot of change recently but I think with a littlle more it could be really beneficial to the league.

Why? How?

I guess I'm not the main demographic for the MLS, I've lived in North America my whole life and have only recently gotten into soccer, but I really don't see the advantage of a whole season with most teams being eliminated as it goes, some out of contention after only a few weeks.

I don't know, I look at European leagues and see the same 3-4 teams on top the whole year and I don't see how that would build much interest in the rest of the teams.

tfc
11-06-2008, 12:06 PM
I think promotion and relegation with the USL would be a great system, maybe I am missing something, but I think it would be awesome to watch. I'm also not big on this whole "we have to make it look like something other than soccer if we want americans to watch it" idea ... Grow the f*ck up, its not an american sport and changing the system so that it makes it 'more american' is just dumb.

that said, I do not think promoting/relegating teams should occur as other teams are being created; expansion teams would buy in to MLS and after their first season be in the USL.

king dave
11-06-2008, 12:08 PM
I prefer the european system of 1 team wins the table, relegation and promotion.
It benefits the game mid-long term I think.
I don't think it can be done for financial reasons at the moment in North America but you have to ask yourself why has this system worked for so many leagues around the world for, in some cases, almost 100 years?

MLS is a baby and has to nurtured (for now), but eventually it will have to behave/act like the adults.
KD.

king dave
11-06-2008, 12:14 PM
I think promotion and relegation with the USL would be a great system

Exactly what I was thinking.
I've been to games in Charleston and been to the pitch in Rochester (they love football there, not the pointy kind!).
Had this exact discussion with Parkdale last night.
If TFC were relegated to the USL we could go to matches in Montreal, Rochester, Charleston and miami for instance. Would there be the same rabid devotion to our team? I would say yes.
With all this talk of cities wanting football clubs=a good sign that this game is here to stay in North America=USL & MLS expansion=more leagues.
But it will take time.
KD.

Beach_Red
11-06-2008, 12:16 PM
I prefer the european system of 1 team wins the table, relegation and promotion.
It benefits the game mid-long term I think.
I don't think it can be done for financial reasons at the moment in North America but you have to ask yourself why has this system worked for so many leagues around the world for, in some cases, almost 100 years?

MLS is a baby and has to nurtured (for now), but eventually it will have to behave/act like the adults.
KD.

I have to admit, I find this discussion interesting, but I'm not sold on a single table or relegation/promotion. I've never followed a league like that, so maybe it's terrific, but it just looks to me like it's always the same teams at the top of that single table. The fans of the other teams look for consolation prizes and have probably been fans for a long, long time.

I guess you also have to ask, is the system really working in leagues around the world? It was a system developed before TV money came along and threw things out of whack. I don't know many European leagues, but from what I can see there are a few teams in each league simply not worried about relegation. Was that always the case? Was Liverpool or Man U or Celtic or Rangers ever worried about relegation? 'Cause they sure aren't now.

king dave
11-06-2008, 12:19 PM
By the way, hooked up with the Rhino peeps in Rochester and they were so happy to see us it was quite a nice feeling.
They wanted us to stay for the Minnesota game that night but we were on our way to the Red Bulls game in NY.
Point?
We will be going back next year to see them play the Impact, AND we Will be sitting with the Rhino supporters.
Oh, why you ask?
Tick Tack . . .
KD.

king dave
11-06-2008, 12:26 PM
I have to admit, I find this discussion interesting, but I'm not sold on a single table or relegation/promotion. I've never followed a league like that, so maybe it's terrific, but it just looks to me like it's always the same teams at the top of that single table. The fans of the other teams look for consolation prizes and have probably been fans for a long, long time.

I guess you also have to ask, is the system really working in leagues around the world? It was a system developed before TV money came along and threw things out of whack. I don't know many European leagues, but from what I can see there are a few teams in each league simply not worried about relegation. Was that always the case? Was Liverpool or Man U or Celtic or Rangers ever worried about relegation? 'Cause they sure aren't now.
Agreed.
But to compare the MLS to any other football league would be impossible.
The 'tribal' element is present in most football leagues around the world because there is a lengthy history.
Here, no history (yet) and the North American market for sports is as you have pointed out.
But if the rest of the world follows a singular/common system and you want to participate in that system and be respected within that system you have to join.
But I still agree with you.
KD.

Fort York Redcoat
11-06-2008, 12:26 PM
Why? How?

I guess I'm not the main demographic for the MLS, I've lived in North America my whole life and have only recently gotten into soccer, but I really don't see the advantage of a whole season with most teams being eliminated as it goes, some out of contention after only a few weeks.

I don't know, I look at European leagues and see the same 3-4 teams on top the whole year and I don't see how that would build much interest in the rest of the teams.

First let me stress that I didn't start this to be a NA vs World football thing. I think this league can't simply adopt the rules of the top leagues of the world that have had more than a century to get there.

I really appreciate the fact that the majority of fans aren't avid watchers of the world game. In a way it's very encouraging.

This league doesn't determine the "World Champions" like its competition in the American sports environ so I hope that MLS can get past the playoff system to find a more vaild champion. To me it's been the difference from fan to supporter. We can name the teams in NA sport that are supporters (cubs-insert long sufferer here) but mainly the interest should lie in the love of the game and your local team not like majority of teams that have to entertain enough to keep their interest.

The whole "sneaking in the playoffs" is not a new thing and it devalues the league play. How many times have you wondered if your team was mailing it in because they were still confident they could make the playoffs later. That attitude bleeds into the fans. Hence fans mailing it in and waiting to see if "their team" makes the playoffs.

:rant:

Fort York Redcoat
11-06-2008, 12:36 PM
I have to admit, I find this discussion interesting, but I'm not sold on a single table or relegation/promotion. I've never followed a league like that, so maybe it's terrific, but it just looks to me like it's always the same teams at the top of that single table. The fans of the other teams look for consolation prizes and have probably been fans for a long, long time.

I guess you also have to ask, is the system really working in leagues around the world? It was a system developed before TV money came along and threw things out of whack. I don't know many European leagues, but from what I can see there are a few teams in each league simply not worried about relegation. Was that always the case? Was Liverpool or Man U or Celtic or Rangers ever worried about relegation? 'Cause they sure aren't now.

Ask the Leeds fans about relegation worry still existing (Not a dig). But I'm not really talking about relegation complications because I think this converting from playoffs to league cup is something that could be implicated with little complication. If any cup needs to go it's the Superliga. It was a cup created to invite the biggest but not best between only 2 countries that morphed into a regional secondary champions league (UEFA cup). It's superfluous with the limitations of our roster sizes in this league.

king dave
11-06-2008, 12:38 PM
First let me stress that I didn't start this to be a NA vs World football thing. I think this league can't simply adopt the rules of the top leagues of the world that have had more than a century to get there.

I really appreciate the fact that the majority of fans aren't avid watchers of the world game. In a way it's very encouraging.

This league doesn't determine the "World Champions" like its competition in the American sports environ so I hope that MLS can get past the playoff system to find a more vaild champion. To me it's been the difference from fan to supporter. We can name the teams in NA sport that are supporters (cubs-insert long sufferer here) but mainly the interest should lie in the love of the game and your local team not like majority of teams that have to entertain enough to keep their interest.

The whole "sneaking in the playoffs" is not a new thing and it devalues the league play. How many times have you wondered if your team was mailing it in because they were still confident they could make the playoffs later. That attitude bleeds into the fans. Hence fans mailing it in and waiting to see if "their team" makes the playoffs.

:rant:
Another great post.
This has been, already, one of the best/interesting discussions around here for months.
I think the 'tribal' element is the difference.
You already see it with Toronto-Montreal, Toronto-Vancouver (to some degree).
It really comes down to pro sports North America vs. pro sports World.
Romans watched man vs. lion in an arena to,
A. See the lion rip the guy apart.
B. See the guy ram a pointed stick through the lions heart.
Wagering on each equally probably.
The World Cup draws the largest audience for any sport.
Now that's tribal!!
KD.

king dave
11-06-2008, 12:41 PM
Ask the Leeds fans about relegation worry still existing (Not a dig). But I'm not really talking about relegation complications because I think this converting from playoffs to league cup is something that could be implicated with little complication. If any cup needs to go it's the Superliga. It was a cup created to invite the biggest but not best between only 2 countries that morphed into a regional secondary champions league (UEFA cup). It's superfluous with the limitations of our roster sizes in this league.
Yes sir.
Waaaay to much football now.
'Just look back at TFC in June/July:noidea:.
That is where FIFA need to act.
$$$ is the root of this evil:cool:.
KD.

king dave
11-06-2008, 12:46 PM
Fort York Redcoat get's my vote for
Thread of the Month!
KD.

tfc
11-06-2008, 12:51 PM
If TFC were relegated to the USL we could go to matches in Montreal, Rochester, Charleston and miami for instance. Would there be the same rabid devotion to our team? I would say yes.


I didn't even think about that part of it, that makes it even more fun! We already have a system in place (kinda) that would make it work as well. You have the tiny canadian soccer leagues (csl?), the usl, and then mls at the top. Give it 20 years, and you could find something pretty close to what it is like in Europe.

Also, thinking about it in another way, MLS wouldn't need to be adding teams left right and centre every year if they had promotion and relegation with USL... Top 3 come up, bottom 1 or 2 go down. Bingo, 1/2 more MLS teams.

I hope this is the direction they want to go in in the future, playoffs blow in MLS. It is also freaking freezing by november (minus this week).

king dave
11-06-2008, 12:55 PM
then you have to ask yourself,

'If the dudes behind the TFC franchise were threatened with relegation (ie; loss of fans, $$$ and sponsors/advertising and subsequently their jobs), don't you think they would put a team on the pitch that would not only be competative but, for it's very own welfare, want to win?
And at the same time, a town like Rochester would be in a similar position, BUT could benefit even more from promotion to the MLS (ie; increase of fans, $$$ and sponsors/advertising and employment).
KD.

king dave
11-06-2008, 12:58 PM
I didn't even think about that part of it, that makes it even more fun! We already have a system in place (kinda) that would make it work as well. You have the tiny canadian soccer leagues (csl?), the usl, and then mls at the top. Give it 20 years, and you could find something pretty close to what it is like in Europe.

Also, thinking about it in another way, MLS wouldn't need to be adding teams left right and centre every year if they had promotion and relegation with USL... Top 3 come up, bottom 1 or 2 go down. Bingo, 1/2 more MLS teams.

I hope this is the direction they want to go in in the future, playoffs blow in MLS. It is also freaking freezing by november (minus this week).
Yup!
The components are in place, but just like a table from IKEA, . . . . . .
KD.

king dave
11-06-2008, 01:02 PM
I'm sure the MLS is aware of the failure of this 'playoff' system (ie; viewers, revenue).
At least I hope they are?!?!?
KD.

Beach_Red
11-06-2008, 01:05 PM
then you have to ask yourself,

'If the dudes behind the TFC franchise were threatened with relegation (ie; loss of fans, $$$ and sponsors/advertising and subsequently their jobs), don't you think they would put a team on the pitch that would not only be competative but, for it's very own welfare, want to win?
And at the same time, a town like Rochester would be in a similar position, BUT could benefit even more from promotion to the MLS (ie; increase of fans, $$$ and sponsors/advertising and employment).
KD.

I think if the dudes behind TFC were faced with relegation, they would have looked at attendance at Lynx games and passed on the franchise.

But, I've figured out this playoff thing.

Playoffs are an internal Champions League played at the end of the season instead of throughout.

Other North American sports leagues have no one else to play in Champions League style play (though that is coming in everything except the NFL) so they have these playoffs instead. Once MLS is fully integrated in CONCACAF and the Champions League is fully established, then we won't need playoffs anymore.

Of course, by then it will be a "tradition" that people won't want to mess with....

Oldtimer
11-06-2008, 01:22 PM
typical off-season thread. promotion/relegation? Check. Winning Playoffs vs. winning the league? check.

:lol: :lol:

In my mind, we already have a league champion - the Supporter's Shield. Nothing wrong with a cup competition in addition to it. The Supporter's Shield just needs more promotion. The Crew deserve to be honoured for playing consistently well almost the entire season.

To those who say that playoffs aren't done elsewhere, it's just not true. For example, one of the promotion spots to the English Premiership is decided by playoffs between the third-through-sixth places in the Championship table.

Fort York Redcoat
11-06-2008, 01:45 PM
typical off-season thread. promotion/relegation? Check. Winning Playoffs vs. winning the league? check.

:lol: :lol:

In my mind, we already have a league champion - the Supporter's Shield. Nothing wrong with a cup competition in addition to it. The Supporter's Shield just needs more promotion. The Crew deserve to be honoured for playing consistently well almost the entire season.

To those who say that playoffs aren't done elsewhere, it's just not true. For example, one of the promotion spots to the English Premiership is done by playoffs.

Absolutely playoffs are done in other leagues. Just not the most successful ones.

I agree with your sentiment on bigging the Supporter's Shield but how? As trite as it sounds it seems the only way for the league to add more exposure to something is to attach a sponsor.

The AIG Major League of Soccer.

The possible transition to this system will be full of discussion so I think it deserves to be brought up every year till it happens.

Look at the difference in cup structure from last year. Who predicted the change would be so successful ( in Canada anyway)?

Hitcho
11-06-2008, 01:50 PM
The only reason a multi-tiered league system and knock-out cup competition between teams from those leagues can work is because all the clubs are independent entities who have agreed to play under the banner of one, central FA body. That could never happen here because MLS is its own private franchisising system and owns and controls all of the MLS teams, but has no control over any of the other teams. It'll never allow mixing and matching because it will see it as non-franchised clubs cashing in on the MLS name and there will be an almighty scrap over image rights etc. Now if the USL (and other similar leagues in the US) were taken over by MLS or linked in some way, it might be possible. But can anyone really see that happening? I can't.

So the cup comp is dead, because it'd be pointless to have the same teams playing each other in the MLS league and the MLS Cup, without any others being involved.

I hate the play-offs and the whole NAmerican system for sports comps, but I think we're stuck with it, unless all the clubs disband from MLS and start their own league up as independent entities. But even then, who do you put into the top league and any lower ones? And will the relegated clubs go bust from lack of fan support (not us probably, but what about teams like Columbus who can barely manage a 5k crowd when they're top of MLS on some days)?

Fort York Redcoat
11-06-2008, 02:07 PM
So the cup comp is dead, because it'd be pointless to have the same teams playing each other in the MLS league and the MLS Cup, without any others being involved.



pointless to have both, yes. I think there's more relevance in a league cup than a half the league cup. I'm coming from an attendance POV. Yes I'd love to include the others in the US Soccer pyramid but that's the next bridge to burn.

Let me say I'd rally for TFC in the playoffs but because it's the team not the competition.

Chevy
11-06-2008, 02:14 PM
Why? How?

I really don't see the advantage of a whole season with most teams being eliminated as it goes, some out of contention after only a few weeks.

I don't know, I look at European leagues and see the same 3-4 teams on top the whole year and I don't see how that would build much interest in the rest of the teams.




I think promotion and relegation with the USL would be a great system, maybe I am missing something, but I think it would be awesome to watch. I'm also not big on this whole "we have to make it look like something other than soccer if we want americans to watch it" idea ...

I have combined two posts to make a point...

Its tough to get rid of the current playoff system as some fans would lose interest after it becomes quickly evident that their team won't win the league title.

That said, if we had a relegation system you could drop the playoff system as the top teams would compete for the title and the bottom teams would compete to stay out of the drop zone (or for the lower leagues compete for promotion). Hopefully that would keep interest going throughout the season and spread it out a little (allowing for MLS not to play on the international dates).

Yohan
11-06-2008, 02:20 PM
Cute. But I think we're well aware of those cups and their worth.

Yes... This new cup can have about same worth as the Carling Cup, Italian Cup, Copa del Rey, etc...

IIRC, the FA Cup is the only league cup that is highly valued. The rest, not so much

Fort York Redcoat
11-06-2008, 02:34 PM
Yes... This new cup can have about same worth as the Carling Cup, Italian Cup, Copa del Rey, etc...

IIRC, the FA Cup is the only league cup that is highly valued. The rest, not so much

Your referencing leagues that already appreciate the league being of most importance. I merely suggest a league cup to have a league wide tournament to replace the little attended playoffs. This may ease transition from one model to another. If the league cup wasn't popular they'd probably drop it.

The point is the playoff system devalues the leagues regular season play in the most popuar point in the year then tries to compete with every other American league head on.

Beach_Red
11-06-2008, 02:56 PM
I have combined two posts to make a point...

Its tough to get rid of the current playoff system as some fans would lose interest after it becomes quickly evident that their team won't win the league title.

That said, if we had a relegation system you could drop the playoff system as the top teams would compete for the title and the bottom teams would compete to stay out of the drop zone (or for the lower leagues compete for promotion). Hopefully that would keep interest going throughout the season and spread it out a little (allowing for MLS not to play on the international dates).

I still think if teams got relegated to lower leagues their fans would go to more baseball games, more summer basketball leagues, more college football, more Nascar, more.... you get the idea, there are just too many choices in North America, especially if your team is playing in what appears to be a 'minor' league - then soccer would have to also compete with all the minor leagues in every other sport.

I do think with a proper Champions league the playoffs could be adjusted, but you're really talking about trading one tradition for another. There's nothing to back up any of these arguments about teams or players "trying harder" to avoid relegation.

There was a time when the Stanley Cup playoffs were considered the greatest amateur tournament in sports because the little additional money players got for it was almost meaningless. So for two months, the best players in the world really competed for nothing but the championship (sometimes I think this is why a guy like Mats Sundin stayed with the Leafs - he made the same money he would have anywhere else and his season ended two months earlier - guys like Ray Bourque he get traded to more likely Stanley Cup winners get no more money - not much - and play 16-28 more games).

Playoffs in North America were once what bridged "amateur" with "professional" sports - at the end of the money season there's a tournament just for the championship.

Toronto Ruffrider
11-06-2008, 03:00 PM
I've been listening to pods on the dismal turnouts to the MLs playoffs this year and I can't help but agree with the majority of them that it's a waste of time.

I've heard the line "It's how we do things over here" but it seems that less people "do" that thing than in the regular season. Now I know the excuses of competition with bigger American sports and bad weather but don't those very reasons call for a change? It seems like the American anti-cup sentiment is starting to recede so I ask you all:

Why not have a league cup throughout the season when the highest attendance shows up?

The woeful playoff attendance figures are not a new phenomenon in MLS. Poor playoff crowds have been the norm for years, and they include such figures as a crowd of 4,000 for a Colorado game in 2006, and a crowd of 5,200 for New England's latest home game.

Are the poor playoff crowds a consequence of the bad weather? I don't think so. The US Open Cup - the United States' version of the FA Cup - is held in mid season, but it doesn't appear to be any more popular. In fact, most US Open Cup matches rarely draw much over 5,000 fans, and the final of this year's competition drew only 8,200 spectators.

If the calendar isn't an indicator of MLS playoff attendance, then what could be? I contend that small season ticket bases greatly influence game-by-game attendance. Here in Toronto we take for granted the fact that 16,000 tickets - 80% of BMO Field - are sold months before the season begins. It's easy for TFC to sell out games on short notice when it only has to sell 4,000 tickets. In contrast, most other MLS teams have small subscriber bases of 6,000 or less. It isn't too difficult for teams to sell 10,000 or more tickets per game when they have months to work with, but they simply do not have enough time to move that volume of tickets over the span of one or two weeks. Not surprisingly, playoff crowd figures in MLS aren't much larger than the season ticket bases of the cities in which games are played.

As a fellow CMNT supporter, I'm sure you're aware of how long it takes for 20,000 tickets to sell. Even the Jamaica game, which was unquestionably a success at the gate, took over a month to sell out. As important as MLS playoff games are, tickets just can't be sold in great quantity overnight.

Hitcho
11-06-2008, 04:23 PM
The woeful playoff attendance figures are not a new phenomenon in MLS. Poor playoff crowds have been the norm for years, and they include such figures as a crowd of 4,000 for a Colorado game in 2006, and a crowd of 5,200 for New England's latest home game.

Are the poor playoff crowds a consequence of the bad weather? I don't think so. The US Open Cup - the United States' version of the FA Cup - is held in mid season, but it doesn't appear to be any more popular. In fact, most US Open Cup matches rarely draw much over 5,000 fans, and the final of this year's competition drew only 8,200 spectators.

If the calendar isn't an indicator of MLS playoff attendance, then what could be? I contend that small season ticket bases greatly influence game-by-game attendance. Here in Toronto we take for granted the fact that 16,000 tickets - 80% of BMO Field - are sold months before the season begins. It's easy for TFC to sell out games on short notice when it only has to sell 4,000 tickets. In contrast, most other MLS teams have small subscriber bases of 6,000 or less. It isn't too difficult for teams to sell 10,000 or more tickets per game when they have months to work with, but they simply do not have enough time to move that volume of tickets over the span of one or two weeks. Not surprisingly, playoff crowd figures in MLS aren't much larger than the season ticket bases of the cities in which games are played.

As a fellow CMNT supporter, I'm sure you're aware of how long it takes for 20,000 tickets to sell. Even the Jamaica game, which was unquestionably a success at the gate, took over a month to sell out. As important as MLS playoff games are, tickets just can't be sold in great quantity overnight.

Interesting point, but not sure I buy into it. I can't belive that any MLS club is going to be saying "you know, we had 30,000 people call up for play-off tickets but we logistically just couldn't process that many orders in time, and we only got through 5,000 orders, so the other 25,000 people had to bite it". And if that did happen once, then every season after that they'd A) be staffing the phones like crazy for the sales rush and B) be sending out notices half way through the season to get names on waiting lists for play-off tickets if the club made it through. There's no way MLS is going to just sit back and let that kind of capital fall through its hands.

So the only rational answer is that the fans don't care about the play-offs, or at least not enough to buy tickets for the games. Having a large season ticket holder base will make it easier for sure (they can sneakily pre-authorise you for play-off tickets like TFC did, for example). But when you consider that the FA Cup final at Wembley or last minute additional rock concert dates can easily sell out 80,000 tickets in the space of a day (or a few hours), I don't belive that an organisation like MLS can't handle 20,000 play-off ticket requests (or 10,000, if everyone buys two tickets on average) in the space of a full week.

Why the fans don't care is beyond me, because a play-off game has way more at stake than any regular league game. When TFC make the play-offs next season, you better believe the place is gonna be ram packed and hummin'. No-one's gonna fancy coming to our house on those nights.

:canada::canada::canada::canada::canada:

Shakes McQueen
11-06-2008, 04:49 PM
Relegation would be the financial death of MLS.

I think MLS will always have playoffs, because if we were just to go to a "most points wins the league" system like the European domestic league, you would see attendance for less successful teams drop off quicker.

The thing about relegation, is that it gives those cheering for mid & lower table teams a reason to keep coming out to the matches. For a lot of teams, escaping relegation can be as exhilarating as winning the league.

- Scott

Eastend
11-06-2008, 04:55 PM
I say scrap the playoffs and add 4-6 more regular season games.....1 winner.

flatpicker
11-06-2008, 07:51 PM
I'm just gonna repeat what I have said on numerous occasions in the past...

MLS needs to solidify itself with two single tables... MLS East and MLS West
Yes, they already have an East and West...
But I really think they should differentiate the two more, like it is with Major League Baseball.
Don't have teams from separate divisions play each other (with the exception of a few inter-league games per year)
Then... NO PLAYOFFS!
I want to see an East Champion and a West Champion at the conclusion of the season.
Then those two champs face off for the MLS Cup.
I think it would create a good rivalry between the two divisions (as in baseball) to see who is best when they meet in the finals.

It's simple, short and sweet. It leaves no question as to who is best (no mid-table teams slipping into the playoffs)
And, as someone said in an earlier post, if they eliminated playoffs, you could probably squeeze a couple more games into the schedule.
And since regular season games get higher attendance... the league gets more money!

Beach_Red
11-06-2008, 08:25 PM
Ask the Leeds fans about relegation worry still existing (Not a dig).

So, is it more fun to follow a team that's always worried about relegation or a team that has a real chance at a championship?

Every MLS team is still trying to attract new fans - maybe TFC can survive just fine with the ones it has, but every other team still needs to increase its fan base by a lot. They just couldn't do that if there was a chance their team could get knocked down to some minor league or if from the halfway point in the season there was no chance they could win it all.

I guess because I've never followed a league set up like the European leagues I just don't know what I'm missing, but I will say other North American sports leagues have a lot of fans and they have playoffs - baseball even expanded with wild card spots not that long ago - so it is a system that works here. We're used to the end of the season being a playoff race, with the possibility of getting in and then winning it all - avoiding relegation may not be a big enough 'prize' to make the last six weeks of the season very exciting.

But hey, if MLS changed its format, did away with playoffs, had a single table and relegated teams, I'd still support TFC.

Toronto Ruffrider
11-07-2008, 12:28 AM
Interesting point, but not sure I buy into it. I can't belive that any MLS club is going to be saying "you know, we had 30,000 people call up for play-off tickets but we logistically just couldn't process that many orders in time, and we only got through 5,000 orders, so the other 25,000 people had to bite it". And if that did happen once, then every season after that they'd A) be staffing the phones like crazy for the sales rush and B) be sending out notices half way through the season to get names on waiting lists for play-off tickets if the club made it through. There's no way MLS is going to just sit back and let that kind of capital fall through its hands.

So the only rational answer is that the fans don't care about the play-offs, or at least not enough to buy tickets for the games. Having a large season ticket holder base will make it easier for sure (they can sneakily pre-authorise you for play-off tickets like TFC did, for example). But when you consider that the FA Cup final at Wembley or last minute additional rock concert dates can easily sell out 80,000 tickets in the space of a day (or a few hours), I don't belive that an organisation like MLS can't handle 20,000 play-off ticket requests (or 10,000, if everyone buys two tickets on average) in the space of a full week.

Why the fans don't care is beyond me, because a play-off game has way more at stake than any regular league game. When TFC make the play-offs next season, you better believe the place is gonna be ram packed and hummin'. No-one's gonna fancy coming to our house on those nights.

:canada::canada::canada::canada::canada:

I think there's a big difference between people buying up FA Cup or rock concert tickets and MLS playoff tickets. For that matter, there's a big difference between the people who buy MLS tickets in the 'States versus the people who buy TFC tickets here. MLS teams south of the border tend to market toward families, not to adults and the culture of supporters. The ticket-buying demographic south of the border is not quite so enthusiastic, and thus tickets don't exactly get snatched up within minutes of going on sale.

If MLS tickets were more popular than this in the US, teams wouldn't need so much time to sell tickets. As it is, very few American teams can sellout 20,000-seat stadia more than a few times a year; even if a sellout is reported, one has to wonder just how many complimentary tickets contributed to the sellout.

Back to your point about fans in the US not caring about the playoffs, that may be true. However, one has to wonder whether or not these "fans" care about the regular season either. If most people attending MLS games in the US are mothers and their kids, then it's easy to see why it takes a long time for teams to sell or give away their tickets.

tfc
11-07-2008, 01:18 AM
Exactly what I was thinking.
I've been to games in Charleston and been to the pitch in Rochester (they love football there, not the pointy kind!).
Had this exact discussion with Parkdale last night.
If TFC were relegated to the USL we could go to matches in Montreal, Rochester, Charleston and miami for instance. Would there be the same rabid devotion to our team? I would say yes.
With all this talk of cities wanting football clubs=a good sign that this game is here to stay in North America=USL & MLS expansion=more leagues.
But it will take time.
KD.


I think there's a big difference between people buying up FA Cup or rock concert tickets and MLS playoff tickets. For that matter, there's a big difference between the people who buy MLS tickets in the 'States versus the people who buy TFC tickets here. MLS teams south of the border tend to market toward families, not to adults and the culture of supporters. The ticket-buying demographic south of the border is not quite so enthusiastic, and thus tickets don't exactly get snatched up within minutes of going on sale.

If MLS tickets were more popular than this in the US, teams wouldn't need so much time to sell tickets. As it is, very few American teams can sellout 20,000-seat stadia more than a few times a year; even if a sellout is reported, one has to wonder just how many complimentary tickets contributed to the sellout.

Back to your point about fans in the US not caring about the playoffs, that may be true. However, one has to wonder whether or not these "fans" care about the regular season either. If most people attending MLS games in the US are mothers and their kids, then it's easy to see why it takes a long time for teams to sell or give away their tickets.

thats the issue isn't it though, americans who wont get behind anything that isn't american, or people can't pass off as american (see: basketball, football, hockey ...) it is pretty ridiculous, but they are a ridiculous country ...