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VPjr
10-27-2008, 04:51 AM
Mo Johnston on the road to nowhere


Forget "next year." The rallying cry of Toronto FC's turgid 2008 season was "the year after that."

It came to a merciful close on Saturday, leaving TFC in third-to-last place, only two points better than the expansion San Jose Earthquakes and David Beckham's L.A. Galaxy.

It was a campaign defined by low points – the two-month winless streak, the constant in-and-out on the roster, the painfully-bored performances of Laurent Robert, who slummed it in Toronto until someone fired him. The nadir was bombing out of the new CONCACAF champions league, one-upped by the part-time pros of the paltry USL.

Full Article (http://www.thestar.com/Sports/Soccer/article/525052)

TFC_Toon
10-27-2008, 05:05 AM
There is no doubt eyes will be firmly watching what Mo does or fails to do this offseason.

Shakes McQueen
10-27-2008, 06:04 AM
What gives with Cathal Kelly, and being a total fucking asshole every time he writes about the club?

Mo Johnston brought in a raft of good players throughout this season - most of whom are now considered among our best players - Guevara, Ricketts, Barrett, Jo Smith, etc.

Was this season a rousing success? No. But judging from expectations going in to this season, we did about as well, or slightly better, than the majority of us thought we would.

If the offensive swagger we saw in our last ditch effort to make the playoffs this season is any indication (final meaningless game notwithstanding), we will be situated quite nicely with a few key acquisitions in the off-season (such as a DP).

These are the worst kinds of sports writers - the snarky, smug little shitheads who adopt an actively hostile "holier than thou" persona in their articles - I assume as a way to sell papers.

Fuck Cathal Kelly.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
10-27-2008, 06:12 AM
Few seemed to notice that the best supported club in Major League Soccer had somehow managed to become inexplicably crappier between years one and two.

Here's an example of why I hate Cathal Kelly.

One, he makes the explicit insinuation that somehow being well-supported imbues your roster with magical powers that should make it good, despite being an expansion team in it's second year, playing in the "frozen wastes" of Canada, on carpeted concrete.

Second, he concludes that the team is worse this season. NO IT ISN'T. Was the team awesome? No. Was it better than last season? YES.

Our goal differential was better, we had more points than last year, we didn't finish at the bottom of the league, and we had a pretty damn good home record.

Cathal Kelly is all snark and factual inaccuracies, not logic or reality.

- Scott

BigLou
10-27-2008, 06:59 AM
Ridiculous article by the smartest 4th grader in Toronto news.

F(uck)
U
C(athal)
K(elly)

canadian_bhoy
10-27-2008, 07:09 AM
I thought the article was quite good.
The inactivity in the offseason last year was really dissapointing. Going into Columbus with virtually the same team as the 07 season was brutal.

This off-season, big changes need to be made - fact.

The Pope
10-27-2008, 07:14 AM
Cathal was beat as a child and his mother didn't love him

Thats the only way I can ever explain his articles

Kickit09
10-27-2008, 07:20 AM
Mo Johnston brought in a raft of good players throughout this season - most of whom are now considered among our best players - Guevara, Ricketts, Barrett, Jo Smith, etc.


the only one your right about is guevara. barrett was handed to mo by garber so mo gets NO credit on that (especially since barrett wasn't even the player mo was going after). ricketts has been decent but far from one of our best players. and jo smith, are you kidding me? ...and how quick we are to forget about all the failures like laurent robert, carlos ruiz, ect. not to mention all the players mo failed to get. call cathal kelly what you want, but he's right about one thing: Mo is on the road to no where. if this team was owned by ANYONE ELSE but MLSE Mo would of been gone long ago.

King Jeff
10-27-2008, 07:27 AM
The only part of this article I disagree with is considering selling Edu a 'lowpoint'. Nobody in this league would have turned down that deal.

Fort York Redcoat
10-27-2008, 07:31 AM
Barrett was not handed to us. Mo had to fight tooth and nail for anything from Chicago who thought they deserved their McBride back and went crying to the league itself about it. There was nothing that said gift about that transaction. I credit Mo on that one for using everything at his disposal (the media) to put the league and Chicago on the spot for their ridiculous rules.

I share the opinion that it doesn't make up for failing to find a way to improve the team before the the season began.

kelzag
10-27-2008, 07:45 AM
Usually Mr Kelly & I have very different opinions, but I thought this was well written and he made legitimate points that needed to be said in the media.

I hope he's wrong about the off-season though.

rocker
10-27-2008, 07:46 AM
I disagree with Kelly on the "this team is crappier" point. I guess he was too busy covering baseball this year to actually watch the team. He could have, alternatively, examined the standings to see they gained 40% more points this year. In either instance, there's no way this team is "crappier" than last year's club. There's no objective evidence of such a thing.

But I can accept his right to commentary on other points.

Beach_Red
10-27-2008, 08:09 AM
...if this team was owned by ANYONE ELSE but MLSE Mo would of been gone long ago.

No.

The team hasn't even existed since, "long ago." No Expansion team would ever fire its manager after one or even two seasons (they'd never be able to hire another one worth having after setting that prededent - right now it's all about setting the right tone). Especially when they hired him as GM, coach, scout, trainer - pretty much every job they had. That was a bush league way to start the team, but as we've discussed here at great length, MLSE went into this with no enthusiasm at all.

What I would find interesting is to see a list of players that were targeted last off-season and the reasons they gave for not signing here. I realize the team can't go pissing off the few agents that handle every player in the world by negotiating in public, but still, it would be nice to know.

Probably the best we could have done last off-season was four or five Laurent Roberts. We would have been thrilled opening day, and then as we watched them walk around not giving a shit and dropped them one by one all season long it would have driven us insane. Maybe we could have gotten a few more Olivier Tebilys and when their wives came and visited they'd have left, too (Tebily is an odd situation, though, because he hasn't even played anywhere else since - he was probably far more injured than he let on - we could have gotten a lot more injured guys, too).

Maybe we could have gotten a couple more Ricketts. I would have liked that, but not very many people on this board would have been happy.

In fact, this team is in much better shape than it was last year at this time and it's on track to be a real contender in the next couple of years. Take away those last minute goals (a classic expansion team problem in every sport) and this is a completely different season.

I hope there are some great off season signings, and there will probably be a couple (and at least one that looks great but turns out to be a bust). Whatever reasons guys (or really, their agents) had for not signing with TFC, they become less important with every year the team exists. We're moving from, "beggars can't be choosers," to a position where we get to chose. I'm glad the team didn't just sign anyone in the last off season so they could say they signed someone. Expansion teams always get burned, but so far we've kept it to a minimum and dumped our mistakes pretty quickly. That sets a good tone, we're not looking like a desperate drunk chick two minutes before last call, going after whatever jerk is left in the bar.

When people agree with Kelley (or any journalist) suddenly the articles are insightful and even well-written. When we disagree they're monkeys with keyboards who don't know shit. That says more about us than about the journalists.

We're all impatient here, we all wanted to be in the playoffs in our second year and be winning it all in our fourth (that could still happen, actually, the fucking Crew turned it around pretty quick) so we lose sight of a lot of the things the team has done well. It's not nearly as bad as Kelley says - there's no reason for him to suddenly become any smarter than he's been the past few years.

Carts
10-27-2008, 08:09 AM
He's bitching and moaning to get a rise out of all us, and its working...

He points out every bad thing, then only mentions a few of the good things...

He's like a bitchy child crying "me, me, me, look at me"...

If you point out one side of the story (the promises that didn't happen, bad deals, bad players coming in) you need to point out the other side (the added points, the god players that were added, improved scoring & goals against), that's just basic journalism...

Cathal doesn't tell the whole story, he picks and choses to make his own point...

If he laid everything out, and said 'this is my opoinion because..." that's fine. But he takes the chicken way out and tries to sway the readers by only giving them partial facts...

Its columns and a style like this that will kill his creditbility almost instantly, and eventually possibly his career one day....

Carts...

rocker
10-27-2008, 08:13 AM
one thing I'd like to see a journalist have the balls to do is actually call up some of those trialists and find out why they didn't sign or didn't come. I remember one trialist said (to paper back home) that he didn't sign cuz he didn't like being owned by MLS.
but it's a project that should be done.. same with when guys are traded -- Cathy should call up the players and get their opinions on things.
why did nobody do an interview with Robert after??? The guy speaks English too....

but that's a lot of work.....

Wagner
10-27-2008, 08:31 AM
i've got a question somewhat related to this...

Do you want any Designated Player?
or the Right Designated player?

maybe MoJo is waiting for someone...
he's made more good moves than Bad.
I trust him.

Roogsy
10-27-2008, 08:47 AM
A commentary on Mo's performance is necessary to evaluate the club. Whether you agree or disagree with the job Mo has done, I cannot understand how people manage to make this an MLSE issue. :noidea:

Beach_Red
10-27-2008, 08:50 AM
^ Well, some people believe that leadership starts at the top, that organizations take on the personalities of their leaders - in this case that means MLSE. That's where, at the end of the day, the most meaningful decisions will be made.

Damien
10-27-2008, 08:56 AM
As much as i hate Cathal Kelly, it's healthy to raise questions about management to keep them on their toes.

NO FREE RIDES IN TORONTO!!!

Mo's got 1 year left to bring us results.

Roogsy
10-27-2008, 09:03 AM
^ Well, some people believe that leadership starts at the top, that organizations take on the personalities of their leaders - in this case that means MLSE. That's where, at the end of the day, the most meaningful decisions will be made.

To hold them responsible for Mo the question needs to be answered first whether or not Mo was a good choice to begin with. If the answer is finally and definitely answered as no, then yes the issue can then be turned to MLSE. But are we there yet?

TorCanSoc
10-27-2008, 09:21 AM
This guy pulls no punches. I can't imagine he's too welcome at BMO when he goes there.... if he goes there.

Oldtimer
10-27-2008, 09:35 AM
No.

The team hasn't even existed since, "long ago." No Expansion team would ever fire its manager after one or even two seasons (they'd never be able to hire another one worth having after setting that prededent - right now it's all about setting the right tone). Especially when they hired him as GM, coach, scout, trainer - pretty much every job they had. That was a bush league way to start the team, but as we've discussed here at great length, MLSE went into this with no enthusiasm at all.



I can't believe it, but I'm going to defend MLSE here. :eek:
The majority of MLS teams have a single person do coaching/GM/scouting. It may seem "bush league," but we play in a "bush league." :rolleyes:

It made sense for MLSE to go frugal at first, especially as their projections showed the team losing money for the first several years. MLSE saw their conservative fiscal estimates blown out of the water by sellout crowds, and to their credit, they've ponied up the money accordingly. I'm sure that Carver and Winsper didn't come cheap.

Agreed that it would be foolish to fire a GM this early. Mo's probably got one more year. If things don't approve, well...
he'll be gone.

Beach_Red
10-27-2008, 09:44 AM
I can't believe it, but I'm going to defend MLSE here. :eek:
The majority of MLS teams have a single person do coaching/GM/scouting. It may seem "bush league," but we play in a "bush league." :rolleyes:

It made sense for MLSE to go frugal at first, especially as their projections showed the team losing money for the first several years. MLSE saw their conservative fiscal estimates blown out of the water by sellout crowds, and to their credit, they've ponied up the money accordingly. I'm sure that Carver and Winsper didn't come cheap.

I can't believe it, but I too am defending MLSE. I wasn't trying to be critical of them, I was just trying to put Kelley's superficial criticisms in some kind of context.

Yes, it made sense for MLS to go frugal. They were the only money guys in all of Toronto that even stepped up as much as they did. But it's not done yet. Even on this board - a supporters' board - we hear all the time people talking about no longer buying tickets (it seems like it's just talk, but we'll see). Toronto is still a city of fads and this one may wear off. Soccer has no history of success in Toronto.

And MLSE know that this is a league with huge restrictions on player recruitment so they can't simply buy respectability and maybe fans won't stick around. Or, maybe not enough fans will stick around.

I think the team is in much better shape than Kelley's article said. I think you're right, the team should get some credit for bringing in Carver and Winspear, upgrading the training facilities and everything else they've done. I bet Mo had to argue pretty hard for each and every one of those upgrades, because frugal is still the order of the day.

Dub Narcotic
10-27-2008, 09:45 AM
What gives with Cathal Kelly, and being a total fucking asshole every time he writes about the club?

Mo Johnston brought in a raft of good players throughout this season - most of whom are now considered among our best players - Guevara, Ricketts, Barrett, Jo Smith, etc.

Was this season a rousing success? No. But judging from expectations going in to this season, we did about as well, or slightly better, than the majority of us thought we would.

- Scott

I'd hate to see what you think a GM doing a bad job looks like. TFC has been the worst team in the league over the last two years. He failed to make a single significant signing in the last offseason then wildly overpaid for Laurent Robert (bust) and Rohan Ricketts (average). He only seems able to acquire players who are associated with his agent or with his old team, the Red Bulls. The Barrett acquisition was a gift given by league rules.

Not only that, instead of taking any accountability for his performance, Mo always has an excuse for his failures (turf, Canadians, league rules, blah blah). When the head of an organization acts like that, it filters down to the whole franchise. Steve Nicol in New England builds a consistent contender with no DP, turf, a small fan base. NFL lines and an uncaring owner. No excuses, just performoance.

I agree that sports writers can be annoying and negative to sell copy, but Cathal Kelly is absolutely right to call out Johnston. He failed in New York, and has failed so far in Toronto. If Carl Robinson leaves, the team will need a complete rebuild, and it already needs a major overhaul. Johnston is obviously going to get one more year to put together a decent squad, but I'm not hopeful, given his past history here and in New York.

Parkdale
10-27-2008, 09:48 AM
He's bitching and moaning to get a rise out of all us, and its working...


exactly.

His articles are polarizing. There's no fence sitting for him, it's love or hate.
Even though I usually disagree with his approach, I'm happy that a paper
in the city is printing something that opinionated instead of just box scores.

Oldtimer
10-27-2008, 09:59 AM
I agree that sports writers can be annoying and negative to sell copy, but Cathal Kelly is absolutely right to call out Johnston. He failed in New York, and has failed so far in Toronto. If Carl Robinson leaves, the team will need a complete rebuild, and it already needs a major overhaul. Johnston is obviously going to get one more year to put together a decent squad, but I'm not hopeful, given his past history here and in New York.

Agreed that Johnston hasn't delivered yet, but it's completely unfair to hold his extremely brief tenure at NY against him. That is a totally disfunctional organization that goes through coaches like most people do socks.

Ossington Mental Youth
10-27-2008, 10:12 AM
Agreed that Johnston hasn't delivered yet, but it's completely unfair to hold his extremely brief tenure at NY against him. That is a totally disfunctional organization that goes through coaches like most people do socks.

yeah seriously, thats not to mention the fact that the plague known as Alexi Lalas was involved

Chewy Unikronik
10-27-2008, 10:16 AM
What's with the hatred that people have for Cathal and McCowan??? It's becoming comical now.

This guy could have wrote the bible, koran and torah and you'd still hate his guts...

mclaren
10-27-2008, 10:43 AM
I thought I'd never say it, but what an excellent article by Cathal. Couldn't agree more.

rocker
10-27-2008, 10:52 AM
What's with the hatred that people have for Cathal and McCowan??? It's becoming comical now

extremists deserve extremist responses ;)

If McClown and Cathy wrote in objective, measured ways, nobody would yell at them.

personally I agree with many of the things Cathy wrote in that specific article, but it comes across as mean-spirited when he then says this team was crappier than last year. it's like he has a position he wants to hold and then he'll find every fact that fits that position, while completely ignoring other things.

and the guy disappeared for a while there as a TFC commentator, but comes back when the season is over. kinda lame. guess baseball was more important.

kdzb
10-27-2008, 12:46 PM
As much as I don't like most of Cathal's articles about TFC, I have to say that this one deserve to be marked as a positive one.
No matter how much you hate the guy but honestley, he is the only one who is putting the fire on Mo's A$$.
Do you think Mo GIVES A FUCK WHAT WE THINK? But he should worry about Kelly saying something nasty about him on the paper because The Star Newspaper is a very popular news outlet that a lot of people read and I'm sure MLSE employees read it as well and one day if the pressure continue on Mo they will wake up and discover that he was taking them for a ride because they know fuck all about football.
I liked the paragraph where Cathal was recommending that MLSE accounting dept should double check his Brazilian's Cab vouchers...:) that will be priceless if they discover most of them were to go to the beach to have a tan hahahaha.
Anyway, Mo proved that he is a loser at managing a football club and if he continue like this we will lose Carver as well and in season 3 we will be fucked as well.

VPjr
10-27-2008, 01:36 PM
extremists deserve extremist responses ;)

If McClown and Cathy wrote in objective, measured ways, nobody would yell at them.

personally I agree with many of the things Cathy wrote in that specific article, but it comes across as mean-spirited when he then says this team was crappier than last year. it's like he has a position he wants to hold and then he'll find every fact that fits that position, while completely ignoring other things.

and the guy disappeared for a while there as a TFC commentator, but comes back when the season is over. kinda lame. guess baseball was more important.

There are far too many "measured" columns written about TFC. I'm glad someone pulled out the knives and started slicing and dicing.

Is he 100% correct on everything he wrote? Nope. I've got some issues with a couple of parts of the piece and I emailed him to tell him so.

However, on the whole, I agree not only with the content but the tone of the column. I wish there were more guys writing for the papers in T.O. that actually knew enough about the sport to provide a hard hitting analysis of the team, regardless of whether the assessment is positive or negative.

by the way, Cathal doesn't get to pick and choose what sports he covers. i spoke to him early in the season and he was gutted that he couldn't dedicate more time to footy and specifically TFC but when the editor tells him to go cover the Blue Jays, that's what he's got to do. Now that baseball season is over, we'll hear from him more I suspect. I thought he did a great job with his Euro 2008 coverage when he got to escape the baseball prison to cover that tournament. I don't agree with everything he writes but I like what he brings to the table.

Mango Kid
10-27-2008, 01:45 PM
Not sure about the rest here, but I found myself nodding in agreement repeatedly through this one. Sure, you can argue about the "worse than last year" blast, but overall, I think he's far more right than wrong.

Shame some can't get past the source to consider the content.

Beach_Red
10-27-2008, 02:33 PM
There are far too many "measured" columns written about TFC. I'm glad someone pulled out the knives and started slicing and dicing.

Oh come on, he didn't say anything that every other column-blog-poster on this board hasn't been saying all year. In fact there's been way more "slicing and dicing" from plenty of other writers.

Rocker's right, though, what we need from the professional journalists is some journalism, some digging to find out WHY so many guys passed on TFC, find out who was targeted and what they said, exactly why they weren't signed or why they weren't targeted.

We've all been saying we want better results, we need to sign better players, that's easy. I'd just like better journalism than saying, "It's the manager." Maybe it is. Should be easy enough for a real journalist to get some actual evidence, though. One quote from someone involved, some guy who was available who would have been great for TFC to say, "No one even called my agent." Something, anything....

ua-kozak_TFC
10-27-2008, 02:52 PM
Oh come on, he didn't say anything that every other column-blog-poster on this board hasn't been saying all year. In fact there's been way more "slicing and dicing" from plenty of other writers.

Rocker's right, though, what we need from the professional journalists is some journalism, some digging to find out WHY so many guys passed on TFC, find out who was targeted and what they said, exactly why they weren't signed or why they weren't targeted.

We've all been saying we want better results, we need to sign better players, that's easy. I'd just like better journalism than saying, "It's the manager." Maybe it is. Should be easy enough for a real journalist to get some actual evidence, though. One quote from someone involved, some guy who was available who would have been great for TFC to say, "No one even called my agent." Something, anything....

I know what you are trying to say. But after 2 years in charge of the club i don;t think is a valid excuse... He is payed to get shit done... Not to give it a try...We are not the only ones who ahve field turf, and people somehow get a good competitive team on the field... At this point o fthe game there are no excuse ... we need results( in the form of some quality signings).

Beach_Red
10-27-2008, 03:00 PM
I know what you are trying to say. But after 2 years in charge of the club i don;t think is a valid excuse... He is payed to get shit done... Not to give it a try...We are not the only ones who ahve field turf, and people somehow get a good competitive team on the field... At this point o fthe game there are no excuse ... we need results( in the form of some quality signings).

You're right, we need results. What I'm afraid of is the revolving door of managers and coaches instead of dealing with the real issues. Is it really so hard for some real journalist to do some real digging and let us know what's really going on? How big a factor is the turf? Did some players not want to come to Canada? Not want to come to an expansion team? Not want to play for this coach?

We keep saying we deserve more, we're demanding more, but are we really?

jloome
10-27-2008, 03:07 PM
Oh come on, he didn't say anything that every other column-blog-poster on this board hasn't been saying all year. In fact there's been way more "slicing and dicing" from plenty of other writers.

Rocker's right, though, what we need from the professional journalists is some journalism, some digging to find out WHY so many guys passed on TFC, find out who was targeted and what they said, exactly why they weren't signed or why they weren't targeted.

We've all been saying we want better results, we need to sign better players, that's easy. I'd just like better journalism than saying, "It's the manager." Maybe it is. Should be easy enough for a real journalist to get some actual evidence, though. One quote from someone involved, some guy who was available who would have been great for TFC to say, "No one even called my agent." Something, anything....

Yes, but until the outlets that employ journalists actually start paying for multi-month fishing trips for stories again, employing decent-sized staffs again and giving them the freedom to do their job, as it was in the old days, you're not going to get better coverage. Blame the businesses, not their employees, many of whom feel the same way you do about it, but have mortgages to pay.

mighty_torontofc_2008
10-27-2008, 03:26 PM
Cathal kelly is a horses ass....thank f**k he does not get more time to write about football and TFC....send him back to the pro wrestling articles he use to do.

King Tut
10-27-2008, 03:33 PM
Mo Johnston on the road to nowhere


Forget "next year." The rallying cry of Toronto FC's turgid 2008 season was "the year after that."

It came to a merciful close on Saturday, leaving TFC in third-to-last place, only two points better than the expansion San Jose Earthquakes and David Beckham's L.A. Galaxy.

It was a campaign defined by low points – the two-month winless streak, the constant in-and-out on the roster, the painfully-bored performances of Laurent Robert, who slummed it in Toronto until someone fired him. The nadir was bombing out of the new CONCACAF champions league, one-upped by the part-time pros of the paltry USL.

Full Article (http://www.thestar.com/Sports/Soccer/article/525052)
Right on. Great article. Fuck Mo!

Beach_Red
10-27-2008, 03:41 PM
Yes, but until the outlets that employ journalists actually start paying for multi-month fishing trips for stories again, employing decent-sized staffs again and giving them the freedom to do their job, as it was in the old days, you're not going to get better coverage. Blame the businesses, not their employees, many of whom feel the same way you do about it, but have mortgages to pay.

Yes, you're right.

I hate the way newspapers are killing themselves. A guy gets paid to write an article that's nothing more than what everyone on this board has been saying for months, so we'll stop buying newspapers and then they'll blame us, saying circulation is down so they'll do even less reporting.

And you're right, I'm sure if some journalist was given the freedom to go dig for a story, he'd be more than happy to do it.

Every day I feel more and more like an old fogey. I grew up reading Red Fisher and Dink Carroll in the Montreal Gazette and I expect that kind of insight and journalism. But of course, Red Fisher was given that kind of freedom and did get to go on long fishing trips looking for stories. And he found quite a few.

S_D
10-27-2008, 03:45 PM
I agree with most of the article. My biggest complaint was not having new players ready for preseason.



His first major move was ... er, wait, I've got it here somewhere (paper shuffling). Sorry, no major moves by the opening of training camp, despite a winter ostensibly spent scouring the Americas, North and South, for talent.

nobodybeatsthewiz
10-27-2008, 03:46 PM
hate to say it but he does have a very legit point

Flipityflu
10-27-2008, 04:12 PM
kelly has some very fair points, but tends to screw it all up with quotes like

'Few seemed to notice that the best supported club in Major League Soccer had somehow managed to become inexplicably crappier between years one and two.'

few noticed this because it is simply untrue cathal.

TheRenter
10-27-2008, 04:23 PM
cathal kelly, if that is his real name;>), can eat the corn out my shite....seriously!

Stencils
10-27-2008, 04:39 PM
His points about Mo are valid, but he's never really given us any cause to believe that he actually likes having Toronto FC in the city therefore his inflammatory rhetoric comes off far more petulant than it probably is. It ends up sounding like he's LOOKING for reasons to cast the team in a negative light rather than pointing out negatives without bias.

Roogsy
10-27-2008, 04:56 PM
His points about Mo are valid, but he's never really given us any cause to believe that he actually likes having Toronto FC in the city therefore his inflammatory rhetoric comes off far more petulant than it probably is. It ends up sounding like he's LOOKING for reasons to cast the team in a negative light rather than pointing out negatives without bias.

Very well put. Cathal Kelly sometimes makes good points but it's lost in the anti-TFC sentiment he puts across.

ensco
10-27-2008, 05:13 PM
kelly has some very fair points, but tends to screw it all up with quotes like

'Few seemed to notice that the best supported club in Major League Soccer had somehow managed to become inexplicably crappier between years one and two.'

few noticed this because it is simply untrue cathal.

Actually we never looked better than we did in May and June 2007 with a healthy Dichio, newly-acquired Cunny looking dangerous, Edu tackling hard, and most importantly, O'Brien distributing the ball

Overall, yeah, it's hard to say we were crappier this year, but we were crappy both years

BlizzardBhoy
10-27-2008, 05:57 PM
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck


No matter how you dress it up, we were third last. Not good enough and we deserve better.

If it were any other league in the world, we'd be fighting relegation. Maybe relegation is not such a bad idea - might encourage MLSE to take the finger out.

Did we even score from a corner in the last two seasons??

Shakes McQueen
10-27-2008, 06:12 PM
His points about Mo are valid, but he's never really given us any cause to believe that he actually likes having Toronto FC in the city therefore his inflammatory rhetoric comes off far more petulant than it probably is. It ends up sounding like he's LOOKING for reasons to cast the team in a negative light rather than pointing out negatives without bias.

This is EXACTLY my problem with him. I wasn't happy that Mo put all of his eggs in one basket (or so we believe anyway) with Dickov during the international transfer window. I wasn't happy that he didn't have many new faces at the beginning of the season.

I haven't been completely happy with Mo's performance, though I think he needs more time to be properly evaluated.

But instead of being reasonable with these points, Cathal Kelly writes incendiary garbage, and ignores some facts in favour of the ones that help illustrate his points.

And when he says stuff like "this team is crappier than last year", when the record and statistics simply don't bear out that statement, I can only conclude that the guy doesn't actually like the club, and clearly doesn't pay much attention to it.

I'm all for someone taking TFC to task for the infuriating bullshit it does sometimes, but how about someone with some journalistic integrity, and a temperament that doesn't come across like you hate the team.

I'd also like to say this: If people are expecting to Mo to do everything right every single step of the way with this club, there are going to be a lot of sad pandas here next season. On the whole, I think Mo is doing a decent job.

- Scott

BlizzardBhoy
10-27-2008, 06:31 PM
We might not 'be crappier' than last year, but we were still crap. And all the rhetoric in the world will not change the fact that we were third bottom.

greatwhitenorf
10-27-2008, 06:43 PM
I saw the article this morning at work, but breezed right past it when I saw who wrote it. Sounds like it's becoming a personal cat fight since the club don't coddle the media the way N. American sports normally do.

It's hard to be overly critical of Mo or MLSEat this early stage of TFC's existence. Fan support may have exceeded all expectations last year, but MLSE were being rightly prudent in not overextending themselves. This year, I think they tried to recruit better players but were often rebuffed because of the plastic pitch.

The ownership of the stadium is out of the club's hands. That makes the nature of the playing surface problematic and not something Mo can arbitrarily overcome.

And again, can we really be too harsh on MLSE for taking a patient approach thus far? Switching to grass probably wasn't envisioned as a real need by even the most optimistic soccer observer when this club first started playing.

And as we're seeing, it can't be changed at the drop of a hat. They need to work through a number of issues to get grass in and fulfill the publich access mandate. When real grass arrives, better players and improved results will follow.

Mo will then look like a genius. Especially if he keeps treating Kelly as badly as he seems to have done thus far.

Yohan
10-27-2008, 07:24 PM
No matter how you dress it up, we were third last. Not good enough and we deserve better.
I'm sure every team that didn't make the MLS is also saying they (the fans) deserve better

Keyman
10-27-2008, 07:33 PM
I know I'm in the minority, but I still trust Mo and I have a strong feeling that next year will be very successful. I personally will only consider the firing of a manager, especially of a expansion team, after three seasons. I'm not going to argue why I believe this, because I really don't have the time nor do I want to waste my time arguing with someone who is never going to change their opinion.

Mo has this team on the right path, in my opinion, and he is worth keeping around for one more season.

Oh and as for Kelly, yes he was a dick ealry on, but you can't simply disregard the fact that in some of his articles he does make valid points.

Beach_Red
10-27-2008, 07:36 PM
I'm sure every team that didn't make the MLS is also saying they (the fans) deserve better

True enough. Look at DC, they had almost the same attendance as we did, they must be pretty pissed. Galaxy fans, they had even higher attendance than we did and I think they even have a DP and grass :rolleyes:. And of course, half the teams that did make the playoffs will be gone after one more home game, do they deserve more? They've sure been around a lot longer.

In fact, the team that really deserves more is New England - imagine how much people here would freak out if we went 0-4 in the championship game?

wzhxvy
10-27-2008, 07:47 PM
You guys are really missing the point...Mo needs another few trips to South America. He really does...a man of his intelligence, good looks and charm...maybe he can unbutton his shirt, gel his hair and go out clubbing again and pick us a real brazilian prospect.

FIRE THE LIAR !!!!!!!!

Shakes McQueen
10-27-2008, 07:53 PM
We might not 'be crappier' than last year, but we were still crap. And all the rhetoric in the world will not change the fact that we were third bottom.

This is somewhat of an oversimplification of our season, however.

The field was incredibly close this year - so close, in fact, that we weren't eliminated from playoff contention until the end of last week. So close, in fact, that had we beaten San Jose, we would have jumped another 3 spots in the overall standings.

The results weren't great, but they were better than last season - 40% better, going by points.

I wouldn't call this season a success, but I also wouldn't call it the miserable failure that Cathal Kelly seems to describe it as. Of course, nuanced opinion doesn't generate page hits like hate does.

- Scott

BlizzardBhoy
10-27-2008, 08:43 PM
My fear is that if we continue as we have, then next season will be no better than this season.

MLSE are a bit spoiled in that they have such a great fan base, but that gives them the opportunity to become complacent.

I reckon we need to expect more, demand more. Otherwise, we just won't get it. If it takes a journo to mix things up, then great - power to him. He's doing us a favour.

Going off at a slight tangent. I'm all for turf as it will help us attract the right caliber of player, but should we not have had a big advantage playing teams at home because we're used to playing/training on 'plastic'?

Beach_Red
10-27-2008, 08:52 PM
MLSE are a bit spoiled in that they have such a great fan base, but that gives them the opportunity to become complacent.

Yes, of course. But it also gives them the opportunity to not be desperate, to not have to mortgage the future for some has-been 'names' now.

We got burned a couple times the first two years and I hope it happens it less often next year. It'll still happen once in a while, that's sports, but I'd hate to spend most of next season with some two million dollar DP out with a sore knee.

mighty_torontofc_2008
10-27-2008, 08:54 PM
I know I'm in the minority, but I still trust Mo and I have a strong feeling that next year will be very successful. I personally will only consider the firing of a manager, especially of a expansion team, after three seasons. I'm not going to argue why I believe this, because I really don't have the time nor do I want to waste my time arguing with someone who is never going to change their opinion.

Mo has this team on the right path, in my opinion, and he is worth keeping around for one more season.

Oh and as for Kelly, yes he was a dick ealry on, but you can't simply disregard the fact that in some of his articles he does make valid points.

i trust Mo as well...you sometime wonder if our fellow supporters want success or not...Firing people/trading players on a wim is a sure shot disaster...TFC has a % yr plan give Mo that time, after the 5 years then judge him not now. its not fair.

McHaggis
10-27-2008, 09:18 PM
I'm all for giving Mo a little more time. If we can improve next year by the number of points we did this year, it will be ok.
Elsewhere, Mo and everyone else should forget about signing some magical Brazilian prospect. Only fat, lazy, washed-up Brazilian players would want to come here. We've had enough of that sort of player already. I'll take a few more Barretts and Ricketts' instead. At least they work their asses off. The future is full of potential.

BlizzardBhoy
10-27-2008, 09:25 PM
I think 5 years is way too long. Some might say MLSE should have nipped Mo in the bud last year, but instead Mo 'managed' to get himself a promotion and move upstairs.

Pretty easy considering he's the only one at MLSE who has the first clue about football. What is it they say... In the valley of the blind, the one eye'd man is king.

Maybe there are lessons MLSE could learn from Trader Mo.
As we all know, if Mo makes a bad signing, he doesn't mess about. He'll gladly chop and change the personell as he sees fit. Food for thought.

And lets remember, Mo had carte blanche with his roster - he did'nt inherit any 'dubious' players from previous personell.

Maybe, one more year. And I really hope he proves us doubters wrong.

SoccMan
10-27-2008, 09:26 PM
Thanks Cathal Kelly for exposing Mo Johnston and telling the rest of Toronto sports fans what a joke of a manager he is. TFC will only improve once Mo is let go. We need someone who is competant to do the job, Mo has showed us he is not the man, he is a good scout I will give him that, but he is not a good general manager. Cathal Kelly is spot on in this article.

Beach_Red
10-27-2008, 09:52 PM
^ Thanks Cathal Kelley? Was there anything in that article that wasn't said on here a hundred times? Did he actually expose anything?

I really wish he had. I wish he'd had one piece of information, one fact about the team that everyone else hadn't already pointed out. The guy watched some games on TV and said what everyone says - they didn't play well, they didn't sign enough quality players. We all know that. I wish as a journalist he had some idea why they didn't.

Mango Kid
10-27-2008, 10:55 PM
Just was thinking about his "managed to become inexplicably crappier between years one and two" comment and realized that he's referring to the last game of 2007, the offseason, and the start of 2008. So he's a lot closer to right on that comment than initially thought.

Oldtimer
10-28-2008, 07:49 AM
Remember that Kelly hates TFC (or "FC" as he calls the team).
People who hate MoJo now think he's a genius, I think he's just doing his usual schtick, dissing any Toronto team and management that he can.

bgnewf
10-28-2008, 09:05 AM
2009 TFC Wish List - A New Director of Soccer
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http://209.85.62.26/style_images/1/spacer.gif

San Jose is a better expansion team than TFC and is almost better in every statistical category. In the six categories below the Earthquakes are better in TFC in 9 of them. This to me speaks to that was possible in 2008 and how Mo Johnston's tenure can be measured to this point to something comparable. I would rate year 2 as a major disappointment that he should be held accountable for.

A new side comes into the league this season and beats or matches our year 2 team in more than half of the categories. and only misses sweeping the table from us by one win and one goal. In all six categories they beat our 2007 team.

Absolutely fucking disgraceful.

Toronto FC Year One

Wins – 6
Losses – 17
Draws – 7
Goals for – 24
Goals against – 42
Plus/Minus – -18

Toronto FC Year Two

Wins – 9
Losses – 13
Draws – 8
Goals for – 33
Goals against – 43
Plus/Minus – -10


San Jose Year One

Wins – 8 (Two better than TFC Year 1 and 1 less than TFC Year 2)

Losses – 13 (4 better than TFC Year One and tied with TFC year 2)

Draws – (9 (2 better than TFC Year 1 and 1 better than TFC year 2)

Goals For – 32 (8 better than TFC Year 1 and 1 less than TFC year 2)

Goals Against – 38 (5 better than TFC year 1 and 6 better than TFC year 2)

Plus/Minus- -6 (12 better than TFC year 1 and 4 better than TFC year 2)

Shakes McQueen
10-28-2008, 09:24 AM
Just was thinking about his "managed to become inexplicably crappier between years one and two" comment and realized that he's referring to the last game of 2007, the offseason, and the start of 2008. So he's a lot closer to right on that comment than initially thought.

Oh absolutely, because we totally got off to a slow start this season - except we didn't. The dismal slide began after Mo added a bunch of new bits and pieces, we lost a couple of key players to injuries, and a bunch more to international duties.

Once we got those pieces back, and the new ones gelled with the group, we actually seemed to be playing decent football again. Of course, by then it was almost too late.

Kelly is full of shit. Our team came out of the gate strongly this season.

- Scott

bgnewf
10-28-2008, 09:30 AM
A year one team playing in a crappy stadium with a tougher travel schedule than us almost managed to beat us stastically across the board. They did not have the benefits of less travel, a full stadium with rowdies like us and an extra year to gel as a team and they still almost pulled it off.

I have said multiple times on this board previously that Mo has a good eye for young talent and can draft very well. Edu and Wynne are excellent examples. He has also done a somewhat decent job in obtaining allocation money and draft picks. Credit where due.

But unlike Yallop in San Jose I do not see a coherent long term plan for TFC's future coming out of Mo. I ask you to remember back to the revolving door of triallists this spring and how the team's roster did not come to a semblance of normality until well after every team in the league this year. Ruiz being traded for was another. It all smacks of desperation to me on Mo's part.

More than anything else any virtues as a GM Mo has are outweighed to me by his faults. He is not the man to get us to the playoffs next year or any year.

And I am convinced that the league needs to investigate the relationship he has with his agent Barry Maclean and the fact that so many of MacLean's clients are or have previously been signed with TFC. Something about that really stinks.

Oldtimer
10-28-2008, 09:32 AM
Not really a fair comparison, as San Jose did it using two players who are not at Toronto due to the turf (maybe the California lifestyle in Huck's case).

Here's a fairer comparison:


Real Salt Lake Year One

Wins - 5
Losses - 22
Draws - 5
Goals for - 30
Goals against - 65
Plus/Minus - -35

Real Salt Lake Year Two

Wins - 10 (32 game season)
Losses - 13
Draws - 9
Goals for - 45
Goals against - 49
Plus/Minus - -4


RSL finally made the playoffs for the first time in their 4th year. Their fans were so excited!

Beach_Red
10-28-2008, 10:34 AM
I have said multiple times on this board previously that Mo has a good eye for young talent and can draft very well. Edu and Wynne are excellent examples. He has also done a somewhat decent job in obtaining allocation money and draft picks. Credit where due.

And I am convinced that the league needs to investigate the relationship he has with his agent Barry Maclean and the fact that so many of MacLean's clients are or have previously been signed with TFC. Something about that really stinks.

You're right, Mo has a good eye for talent, is good at manipulating the weird MLS roster rules to open up more international spaces and is good with allocation money. Would have been even better if so many guys he targeted hadn't turned down TFC for reasons such as turf and we don't even know why else.

But certainly the players that did come here should have performed better. People still love Carver, but why? Mo should have picked a coach with more MLS expereince, surely there's an assistant on some team who's ready to become a head coach.

As for your point about his agent - is that any different from any other manager on any other team in any sport? That's just the way the world works. It works like that in movies and TV - everywhere there are agents.

Soccer may be one of the worst as it's a sport that pays wild transfer fees and players move around so much so agents end up with huge amounts of influence. Really, how many major agencies handle every soccer player in the world? It's not something you can fight, you just have to make it work for you as best you can. Getting someone with some connections is the best you can do. Maybe there's a manager out there with an even better connection to an even more influential agent, but he probably wouldn't have come to an expansion team.

Sport is business.

Mango Kid
10-28-2008, 12:40 PM
Remember that Kelly hates TFC (or "FC" as he calls the team).
People who hate MoJo now think he's a genius, I think he's just doing his usual schtick, dissing any Toronto team and management that he can.

That's quite the assumption, when he told me quite the opposite (met him at a wedding in September).

Mango Kid
10-28-2008, 12:42 PM
Oh absolutely, because we totally got off to a slow start this season - except we didn't. The dismal slide began after Mo added a bunch of new bits and pieces, we lost a couple of key players to injuries, and a bunch more to international duties.

Once we got those pieces back, and the new ones gelled with the group, we actually seemed to be playing decent football again. Of course, by then it was almost too late.

Kelly is full of shit. Our team came out of the gate strongly this season.

- Scott

I don't think he was referring to results per se, just that the big signings long discussed never materialized over the offseason and into the first game or two of this, which they didn't.

Oldtimer
10-28-2008, 12:46 PM
That's quite the assumption, when he told me quite the opposite (met him at a wedding in September).

What is it that he liked? (He doesn't seem to like management, ownership, fans, stadium, the name...) I'm genuinely curious.

Dirk Diggler
10-28-2008, 04:19 PM
Oh absolutely, because we totally got off to a slow start this season - except we didn't. The dismal slide began after Mo added a bunch of new bits and pieces, we lost a couple of key players to injuries, and a bunch more to international duties.

Once we got those pieces back, and the new ones gelled with the group, we actually seemed to be playing decent football again. Of course, by then it was almost too late.

Kelly is full of shit. Our team came out of the gate strongly this season.

- Scott

Actually we got off to a horrible start BEFORE Mo started signing the bits and pieces you're referring to. Before Robert, Guevera and Ricketts came into the fold, TFC looked absolutely hopeless.

profit89
10-28-2008, 09:19 PM
Cathal is a miserable prick

invictusTFC
10-29-2008, 08:44 AM
Actually we got off to a horrible start BEFORE Mo started signing the bits and pieces you're referring to. Before Robert, Guevera and Ricketts came into the fold, TFC looked absolutely hopeless.

That's true... We began the season with 2 losses because we didn't have the depth to compete. I have to agree with Kelly in this regard. Mo dropped the ball. Having all the pieces of the puzzle in place for training camp could have made a huge difference.

MartinUtd
10-29-2008, 07:02 PM
Not that im sticking up for the guy, but Im pretty sure he meant the team was worse at the beginning of the 2008 season when compared to the end of the 2007.

Basically we were the same team without Chris Pozniak or Ronnie O.

No Guevara, no Ricketts, no Jo Smith, etc...

King Tut
10-30-2008, 01:57 AM
FIRE THE LIAR !!!!!!!!
I agree
With Mo We Blow!