PDA

View Full Version : Ives on TFC



Nuvinho
10-20-2008, 01:47 PM
http://www.soccerbyives.net/soccer_by_ives/2008/10/rip-four-mls-te.html



Toronto FC
What went wrong: Terrible forward play throughout the season, at least before Chad Barrett got settled. Roster turnover combined with tons of international duty resulted in a team that never did have a chance to come together.
Most costly stretch: TFC went 1-5-3 in August and September, putting itself in a terrible hole.
Biggest weakness to address: Chad Barrett looks good and Abdus Ibrahim has a bright future, but Toronto FC must find a way to land a DP-level striker. A central defense anchor wouldn't hurt either.
Bright spots: Chad Barrett emerged as a good goal-scorer and looks happy in Toronto. Amado Guevara behaved and played well while Marvell Wynne really came of age. Johann Smith also looks like a future impact player.
Worst moves: Acquiring Carlos Ruiz, signing Laurent Robert and Olivier Tebily. Failing to land top striker before the season.
Outlook: No team in MLS has as much to work with this off-season as Toronto FC, which has tons of allocation money, three first-round draft picks and a DP slot it can use on a star. There is reason for optimisim in Toronto heading into 2009, but anything short of a strong year next year will mean its time for heads to roll.

Broadview
10-20-2008, 01:49 PM
Yup.

stretchthetruth
10-20-2008, 01:54 PM
i'd have to agree with that as well.

Oldtimer
10-20-2008, 01:57 PM
Can't disagree with anything he said.

Shaughno
10-20-2008, 01:59 PM
Pretty much bang on there.

TicTacTabarnack
10-20-2008, 01:59 PM
Another +1 from me.

Billy the kid
10-20-2008, 02:00 PM
Why do we have a new thread everytime Ives mentions TFC?

TicTacTabarnack
10-20-2008, 02:00 PM
Worst moves: Acquiring Carlos Ruiz

I don't see us protecting him from Seattle's Expansion Draft... but will they take him?

James Oliphant
10-20-2008, 02:01 PM
Agreement in full.

Ossington Mental Youth
10-20-2008, 02:01 PM
pretty much common sense.
dont think the worst moves were worst moves when they were made, alot worse moves could have been made, but overall, its a very astute analysis

Shaughno
10-20-2008, 02:01 PM
I don't see us protecting him from Seattle's Expansion Draft... but will they take him?

I doubt it, but worse case scenario we release him on waivers.

Nuvinho
10-20-2008, 02:03 PM
wasn't columbus interested in Ruiz (MLSrumor tho)??

Nuvinho
10-20-2008, 02:04 PM
speaking of protecting players, which XI do we protect?

Shaughno
10-20-2008, 02:13 PM
speaking of protecting players, which XI do we protect?


That's a damn good question.

Few easy ones (assuming they agree not to leave)

Dichio
Robbo
Brennan
Ibrahim
Barrett
Wynne
Ricketts
Jo.Smith

GingerNinja
10-20-2008, 02:19 PM
What about protecting Sutton?
Or do you just assume no one would take him?

Ossington Mental Youth
10-20-2008, 02:21 PM
theyve signed Keller and their current goalie

Shaughno
10-20-2008, 02:22 PM
Yeah i thought I put him in. :lol: But... he would be an International for other teams, so it might be a gamble worth taking. Definitely Sutts and I think Edwards would make it through without being picked. I like Edwards and actually hope he stays with us for a few years.

Shaughno
10-20-2008, 02:23 PM
So no point in protecting him then.

Nuvinho
10-20-2008, 02:23 PM
I am trying to find the rules for the XI you can protect. I don't think dev. players count.

Parkdale
10-20-2008, 02:24 PM
unless the league changes their definition of an international / domestic player, Sutton and the other Canadians are relatively safe. Now if Montreal gets a team... you know damn well they'd take Sutton as fast as possible if we wern't looking.

TicTacTabarnack
10-20-2008, 02:26 PM
That's a damn good question.

Few easy ones (assuming they agree not to leave)

Dichio
Robbo
Brennan
Ibrahim
Barrett
Wynne
Ricketts
Jo.Smith

+ Guevera

TicTacTabarnack
10-20-2008, 02:31 PM
I am trying to find the rules for the XI you can protect. I don't think dev. players count.

CBA has no defined rules:


Section 14.3 Expansion Draft: MLS will consult with the Union as to procedures in the event an expansion draft becomes necessary, but MLS reserves the right to conduct such an expansion draft(s) in its sole and absolute discretion. Source (http://www.mlsplayers.org/files/collective_bargaining_agreement__final.pdf)

Hmmm ...

GingerNinja
10-20-2008, 02:34 PM
/\ Fucking MLS, making up their rules as they go.

Nuvinho
10-20-2008, 02:38 PM
Sutton (unprotected, they have a goalie in Seattle and he makes a lot)
Edwards (risky to keep him unprotected tho, could be Seattle's backup)
Nana (dev)
Brennan (He has a high salary, but I still think that Seattle may take him)
Dunivant (Will definately be taken if we leave him unprotected)
Freeman (His contract isn't up til December, so we can leave him unprotected)
James (Protected, young player)
Marshall (protected or trade him for a pick before the expansion draft)
Velez (unprotected, we know why)
Wynne (protected, we know why)
Gala (dev)
Rosenlund (dev)
Melo (dev)
Elkinson (dev)
Robinson (protected, but also would Seattle want to take a $330K player)
Ricketts (protected)
Guevara (protected)
Harmse (unprotected, international for Seattle)
Jo Smith (protected)
Ja Smith (indifferent, if we have a spot protect him)
Guadet (dev)
Barrett (protected)
Ibbe (dev)
Ruiz (unprotected)
Dichio (unprotected, b/c I doubt they will pick him up)

That is 10 players who are protected, if dev. players count, just add Ibbe to the list.

TicTacTabarnack
10-20-2008, 02:49 PM
Brennan (He has a high salary, but I still think that Seattle may take him)
Dunivant (Will definately be taken if we leave him unprotected)
James (Protected, young player)
Marshall (protected or trade him for a pick before the expansion draft)
Wynne (protected, we know why)
Robinson (protected, but also would Seattle want to take a $330K player)
Ricketts (protected)
Guevara (protected)
Jo Smith (protected)
Barrett (protected)
That is 10 players who are protected, if dev. players count, just add Ibbe to the list.

That's a solid 10 ... So for the last one ... We have to choose between Dichio, Velez and Edwards. Ja Smith would get snatched in my opinion, but he's considered international (though Poz got snatched by SJ and he was considered International). Isn't Freeman going to EPL or was that just something that was being bounced around?

Wooster_TFC
10-20-2008, 02:49 PM
Here's my recollection of the rules (note, as stated above, they could change):


1. Can only protect 11 players.
2. Must protect all but 1 players taking up an international spot
3. Contracts run to the end of the year (after the draft)
4. Assume players cannot be waived after season over and before draft - not sure about this one, feel free to throw it out, if you do, please state who you would be releasing.
5. Seattle can only pick 1 of our players
6. G/A players are exempt from the draft

From TFC website: http://web.mlsnet.com/players/roster.jsp?club=t280

G/A
Abdus Ibrahim

Canadian
Jim Brennan
Kevin Harmse
Greg Sutton
Nana Attakora
Killian Elkinson
Gabe Gala
Derek Gaudet
Joey Melo
Tyler Rosenlund

US Spot
Chad Barrett
Brian Edwards
Hunter Freeman
Jarrod Smith (how this one works I have no idea)
Marco Velez

International Spot (* can count as US)
Danny Dichio
Rohan Ricketts
Carl Robinson
Todd Dunivant*
Amado Guevara*
Julius James*
Tyrone Marshall*
Carlos Ruiz*
Johann Smith*
Marvell Wynne*


And here are my choices:


G/A (auto-protected from draft)
Ibrahim

Protected:
Barrett
Brennan
Dichio
Dunivant
Guevara
James
Marshall
Ricketts
Robinson
Jo Smith
Wynne

Unprotected
Edwards
Freeman
Harmse
Ruiz
Sutton
Ja Smith
Velez

Nuvinho
10-20-2008, 02:52 PM
Wooster is always on top of things.....thanks for the info!

We will probably lose Edwards.

Shaughno
10-20-2008, 02:53 PM
And here are my choices:


G/A (auto-protected from draft)
Ibrahim

Protected:
Barrett
Brennan
Dichio
Dunivant
Guevara
James
Marshall
Ricketts
Robinson
Jo Smith
Wynne

Unprotected
Edwards
Freeman
Harmse
Ruiz
Sutton
Ja Smith
Velez


That's basically how I had it lined up in my head, though I forgot about the G/A of Ibbe. :D

Bolded players being those that I can't see them picking from.

Yohan
10-20-2008, 02:58 PM
That's basically how I had it lined up in my head, though I forgot about the G/A of Ibbe. :D

Bolded players being those that I can't see them picking from.
I'm suffering from CRS (Can't Remember Shit)

does anyone have any clue to how strong Seattle's team is? (or how many players are they bringing up to MLS)

Fort York Redcoat
10-20-2008, 02:58 PM
In worst moves section I agree in hindsight but at the time only a few doubted the frenchmens potential in our league. Ruiz was practically forced upon us. Still the same assesment in the end just wanted to add a little reasoning for fellow "cheerleaders".:)

olegunnar
10-20-2008, 02:58 PM
Can Dichio "retire" to join our coaching staff, then after the expansion draft but before the start of the 2009 season decide to un-retire and play again?

If so that would be a way to save a protected slot as we wouldn't have to protect Dichio (a coach)

Shaughno
10-20-2008, 03:00 PM
I'm suffering from CRS (Can't Remember Shit)

does anyone have any clue to how strong Seattle's team is? (or how many players are they bringing up to MLS)


Sebastien Le Toux
Position: Forward
Height: 6-0
Weight: 155
Birthplace: Rennes, France
DOB: 1/10/1984
Last Club: Seattle Sounders (USL)


Kasey Keller
Position: Goalkeeper
Height: 6-2
Weight: 190
Birthplace: Olympia, Washington
DOB: 11/29/1969
Last Club: Fullham


Sanna Nyassi
Position: Midfielder
Height: 5-8
Weight: 145
Birthplace: Bwiam, Gambia
DOB: 1/31/1989
Last Club: Gambia Ports Authority FC (Banjul)





That's who they have 'officially' signed so far.

Nuvinho
10-20-2008, 03:01 PM
I'm suffering from CRS (Can't Remember Shit)

does anyone have any clue to how strong Seattle's team is? (or how many players are they bringing up to MLS)

I know they are bringing in a few players in from, don't know how many tho. They are bringing in one good striker I think and Kasey Keller as well.

TicTacTabarnack
10-20-2008, 03:02 PM
That's basically how I had it lined up in my head, though I forgot about the G/A of Ibbe. :D

Bolded players being those that I can't see them picking from.

Unprotected
Edwards
Freeman
Harmse
Ruiz
Sutton
Ja Smith
Velez

Keep in mind that most teams use the expansion draft players as bait to build their team (i.e. how many players that were brought in from the expansion draft actually end up still being with the team at the end of the season? Not many)

They could use Sutton as some serious trade bait.

Shaughno
10-20-2008, 03:02 PM
Can Dichio "retire" to join our coaching staff, then after the expansion draft but before the start of the 2009 season decide to un-retire and play again?

If so that would be a way to save a protected slot as we wouldn't have to protect Dichio (a coach)

I was actually just thinking about that as well, but I think it would have to be similar to the Tim Regan situation where I think we would only be able to call him up under the hardship rule or whatever.


Btw, that last guy looks like Pele :lol:

http://www.soundersfc.com/uploadedImages/Home/Articles/SannaNyassi.png
http://www.braziltravel.com/culture/soccer/pele/pele.jpeg

Shaughno
10-20-2008, 03:04 PM
Keep in mind that most teams use the expansion draft players as bait to build their team (i.e. how many players that were brought in from the expansion draft actually end up still being with the team at the end of the season? Not many)

They could use Sutton as some serious trade bait.


True, but who in the league needs a high priced International keeper? Enough to trade more than a half decent player's worth anyway.

TicTacTabarnack
10-20-2008, 03:08 PM
True, but who in the league needs a high priced International keeper? Enough to trade more than a half decent player's worth anyway.

Good Point ... The Risk/Reward ratio probably doesn't make sense in this case. Unless Seattle has a team lined up for the trade (i.e. I'm sure that's an e-mail that will be sent out when the unprotected list comes out ... BCC the MoJo's of the league and ask "Which one you want and what are you willing to trade for it?")

Shaughno
10-20-2008, 03:10 PM
Very true, Mo seems to have a good handle on that aspect of the league and even he may very well be trying to work an angle like that already.

Wooster_TFC
10-20-2008, 03:13 PM
True, but who in the league needs a high priced International keeper? Enough to trade more than a half decent player's worth anyway.

On top of that, I'm pretty certain that both Mo and Carver would be content with Edwards playing net if they happened to pick Sutton. Ergo, Seattle would just get stuck with an overpaid international keeper (as a backup at that).

Only thing I need to comment on my selections, is it bases off the assumption that Jarrod Smith is American (according to TFC website). If he isn't, and it's actually Johann that's american, then one of Jarrod or Ruiz would have to be protected, and I don't know who I drop for that.

As well, you still have major question marks with multiple players maybe returning to England (Ricketts, Robinson), or retiring (Dichio), or moving on regardless (Guevara). The lack of transparency in contracts makes everyone an unknown right now, well except Barrett that is. I assume everyones contract is up this season (since they are generally 2 + 2 option).

Shaughno
10-20-2008, 03:14 PM
Johann is American....

TicTacTabarnack
10-20-2008, 03:29 PM
Very true, Mo seems to have a good handle on that aspect of the league and even he may very well be trying to work an angle like that already.

Basically ... With these guys left Unprotected:
Edwards, Freeman, Harmse, Ruiz, Sutton, Ja Smith, Velez

Ceteris paribus (All things remaining equal :p) MoJo's going to be busy with the following over the off season:
1) Trade for some defenders (given)
2) Sign a DP Striker (off-load Ruiz and potentially Ja Smith)
3) Find a back-up for Sutton or Edwards

I can see Velez getting poached and 3 being a non-issue.

Ossington Mental Youth
10-20-2008, 03:33 PM
Sebastien Le Toux
Position: Forward
Height: 6-0
Weight: 155
Birthplace: Rennes, France
DOB: 1/10/1984
Last Club: Seattle Sounders (USL)


Kasey Keller
Position: Goalkeeper
Height: 6-2
Weight: 190
Birthplace: Olympia, Washington
DOB: 11/29/1969
Last Club: Fullham


Sanna Nyassi
Position: Midfielder
Height: 5-8
Weight: 145
Birthplace: Bwiam, Gambia
DOB: 1/31/1989
Last Club: Gambia Ports Authority FC (Banjul)





That's who they have 'officially' signed so far.
Theres rumors theyve signed something like 5 other players from the current seattle usl roster too so i dont think they will be taking that many people in the expansion draft

Shaughno
10-20-2008, 03:34 PM
^^ Well that would help for sure. It'll be interesting to see how the USL team does.

Dirk Diggler
10-20-2008, 03:57 PM
unless the league changes their definition of an international / domestic player, Sutton and the other Canadians are relatively safe. Now if Montreal gets a team... you know damn well they'd take Sutton as fast as possible if we wern't looking.

Why? They have Matt Jordan ... he has been terrific this season.

Oldtimer
10-20-2008, 03:58 PM
Theres rumors theyve signed something like 5 other players from the current seattle usl roster too so i dont think they will be taking that many people in the expansion draft

Also, why would you pick up someone from the bench of a team that didn't make the playoffs (i.e. TFC)?

Ossington Mental Youth
10-20-2008, 04:13 PM
Also, why would you pick up someone from the bench of a team that didn't make the playoffs (i.e. TFC)?

also very true, its rare that you score a great player in the expansion draft

Nuvinho
10-20-2008, 04:19 PM
I have a feeling Seattle will take less players in this expansion draft, since they will be bringing about 5 to 8 from the USL team.

Red CB Toronto
10-20-2008, 04:51 PM
No point in protecting Hunter Freeman as he has already signed to play with a club in Norway, starting on January 1st, 2009, that was known when Toronto acquired him from New York.

Only one player of the 10 selected by Toronto in 2006 was on the opening day roster, Paulo Nagamura. Most selections were traded for allocation and there were a few for players like Ronnie O'Brien and Edson Buddle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_MLS_Expansion_Draft

Lucky Strike
10-20-2008, 05:07 PM
Probably should point out that with more and more teams, there's a reduced chance that one of our players will actually be selected. This year, Seattle will pick 10 players from 14 teams (no more than one per team) so there is a chance all of this is moot.

TFC OZZ
10-20-2008, 05:28 PM
also very true, its rare that you score a great player in the expansion draft

I'm not sure about that one... Here are three off the top of my head that we picked up that I think are pretty good:

-Nate Jaqua
-Adrian Serioux --> which eventually led to the Ronnie O'Brien pickup
-Jason Kreis (although he was pretty much retired when we got him)

Ossington Mental Youth
10-20-2008, 05:49 PM
I'm not sure about that one... Here are three off the top of my head that we picked up that I think are pretty good:

-Nate Jaqua
-Adrian Serioux --> which eventually led to the Ronnie O'Brien pickup
-Jason Kreis (although he was pretty much retired when we got him)

Good point, i think Jaqua was too inconsistent but not terrible thats for certain. San Jose did ok too, for the most part i think one does 'ok' in drafts and its necessary to fill holes afterwards

Ron Manager
10-20-2008, 06:56 PM
Why do we have an expansion draft for a team that already exists? That makes no sense to me.

Wooster_TFC
10-20-2008, 07:04 PM
Johann is American....

I know that, but if you look at the TFC official roster he's listed as an I, not an S, and Jarrod is listed as an S. From best guesses, the designation of S is either domestic, or one of the 5 american spots we have (that don't count as internationals).

So, assuming that it's actually Jarrod who's designated as the I and Johann as the S, then my picks are in trouble, since there are two I designations on the unprotected list, and I'd have to swap one of Ruiz or Jarrod Smith for someone on my protected list.

Maybe Jarrod's picked up residency? Who knows? It's still a question mark though. I take what they say about designations on the TFC site with a grain of salt, but it's the best I've got right now.

Some of the choices will be interesting. Velez is an interesting one to look at in my opinion, since I still think he's worth something. Maybe MoJo will try and make some trades to at least get something for some of the guys before the expansion draft.

rocker
10-20-2008, 08:00 PM
I only disagree with Ives on Tebily. I think it was a good signing, and he could have been an anchor for the defense. But he chose to leave, and that was that. I didn't see a lot of him, so maybe I'm overrating him... but I particularly remember that game in Montreal where he was a rock, and anticipated everything Montreal wanted to do.

S_D
10-20-2008, 08:10 PM
yep I agree...Tebily should have been played a lot more. I wouldn't be surprised if he left because he was twiddling his thumbs on the bench.

We had a bit of a discussion a few weeks ago of who to protect:
http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=6360

I think we will have to see Ruiz waived if we want to protect a few more players, especially if DD hasn't decided to retire or not. It can be done during the regular season, so it has to be done before the S.J. game.

Just wondering if DD can announce his retirement before the expansion draft and then make a miraculous comeback next season so we don't have to use a protected slot on him.

Ossington Mental Youth
10-20-2008, 09:01 PM
thought tebily was great too but i seem to remember people insisting on him leave cause his wifey demanded it or the sort

Yohan
10-20-2008, 09:16 PM
Imagine TFC with Huckerby and Tebily...

Practically walk into playoffs

fuck

ensco
10-20-2008, 09:28 PM
I only disagree with Ives on Tebily. I think it was a good signing, and he could have been an anchor for the defense. But he chose to leave, and that was that. I didn't see a lot of him, so maybe I'm overrating him... but I particularly remember that game in Montreal where he was a rock, and anticipated everything Montreal wanted to do.

Carver screwed up with Tebily. Maybe Tebily hated it here, or his wife did, but it just can't help that he couldn't get in....you can't tell me a guy 6 months removed from playing significant minutes in the Premiership, which is what Tebily was, should have been waiting his turn behind a guy who played last year for Puerto Rico in the USL (Velez).

Ossington Mental Youth
10-20-2008, 09:32 PM
You can if that guy came late to the season and the guy who has been previously (regardless of league) is playing well. You dont bench the other guy because hes playing well. Tebily was good but he wasnt that good that he was going to walk into our first 11 without having practiced or played a game. Dont forget at the point we signed him we were on a winning streak (or at least hadnt lost)

trane
10-20-2008, 09:41 PM
http://www.soccerbyives.net/soccer_by_ives/2008/10/rip-four-mls-te.html


The only thing that I disagree with is that the signing of Robert and Tebily, may not have worked out for different reasons, but I do not think that the moves in themselves were terrible. I wish Tebily had played more, and Robert showed flashes of brilliance.

I do not agree that forward play was the entire problem, either, at times, the team simply looked disorganized in the midle and at the back.

trane
10-20-2008, 09:42 PM
I see that many agree with me on Tebily, that is one move that just puzzles most of us. Not him being signed but how he was not given a chance to play.

AL-MO
10-20-2008, 09:43 PM
There is reason for optimisim in Toronto heading into 2009, but anything short of a strong year next year will mean its time for heads to roll.

Indeed. Effigies will be burned. :D

mighty_torontofc_2008
10-20-2008, 09:47 PM
Carver screwed up with Tebily. Maybe Tebily hated it here, or his wife did, but it just can't help that he couldn't get in....you can't tell me a guy 6 months removed from playing significant minutes in the Premiership, which is what Tebily was, should have been waiting his turn behind a guy who played last year for Puerto Rico in the USL (Velez).


Tebily liked it here, his wife did not.....what was Tebily going to do tell his wife to adjust to TO? If someone doen't like a city you cant force em to.

Dub Narcotic
10-20-2008, 09:47 PM
In worst moves section I agree in hindsight but at the time only a few doubted the frenchmens potential in our league. Ruiz was practically forced upon us. Still the same assesment in the end just wanted to add a little reasoning for fellow "cheerleaders".:)

Lots of people doubted Robert. Sid Sixiero called him washed up and useless on the Footy Show podcast as soon as he signed.

TicTacTabarnack
10-20-2008, 09:53 PM
Tebily liked it here, his wife did not.....what was Tebily going to do tell his wife to adjust to TO? If someone doen't like a city you cant force em to.

True say ...

http://www.jeffallencomedy.com/images/fotos/happy_wife_happy_life.jpg

Draracle
10-20-2008, 10:46 PM
I would use Ruiz as X-draft bait. Let him hang out there and hope they take it.