In your opinion was this year a success?

[olegunnar]

In another thread Parkdale has said he believes this year was a success because he thinks the on field product was better this year than last. Fair enough.

That made me think that rather than a poll or a simple yes/no, it would be interesting to see not only if people thought this year was a success, but also how they graded the team.


Me, personally, my expectations were 1) playoffs (the captain guaranteed it) and 2) Canada Cup win (we're in the "better" league). So in my books the year was a failure since we were 0 for 2.


What were other people's expectations based on? Did the team meet them?

[Shaughno]

I would tend to agree.

Where we a better team than last year? No doubt about it.

Was this year a success? Definitely not.

[GabrielHurl]

I would tend to agree.

Where we a better team than last year? No doubt about it.

Was this year a success? Definitely not.

Exactly the same thoughts Shaughno

[Parkdale]

I say yes (as you saw in the thread).

The product was better this year, the games were more exciting and more enjoyable to watch. In our 2007 season, we finished 13th overall (aka last). Maybe I'm just not setting the bar very high, but we improved over last year. I's improvement success? In my books, yes. Not a lot, but it's still on the positive side of the scale.

Obviously I would have loved to see things finish differently, especially the Canada Cup, but there's plenty more chances for that down the road.

[Boris]

the issue is if we keep saying better luck next year, we'll never see said improvements.

[olegunnar]

I say yes (as you saw in the thread).

The product was better this year, the games were more exciting and more enjoyable to watch. In our 2007 season, we finished 13th overall (aka last). Maybe I'm just not setting the bar very high, but we improved over last year. I's improvement success? In my books, yes.

Obviously I would have loved to see things finish differently, especially the Canada Cup, but there's plenty more chances for that down the road.

Your post made me think.

So I don't want this to turn into a Parkdale is stupid thread, this time. :p
Or a we suck thread.
I just thought maybe people would have different ways they personally graded the overall success or lack thereof of the 2008 season. I was curious to hear them.

[Parkdale]

the issue is if we keep saying better luck next year, we'll never see said improvements.

'luck' shouldn't come into it. What we need is for Mo and John to be realistic about our strengths and weaknesses and make modifications to capitalize on our improvements. Take luck as far away from the game as possible. The on field play was better this year, especially in the last few games, so we need to ride that momentum into the pre-season and next year.

where's that quote....


TFC captain Jim Brennan said after the game that even if team missed the post-season, their recent success would keep them optimistic.
"We'll be disappointed. For sure we will, because that's what you want to do for ourselves, for our fans," he said. "But if we don't make the playoffs, we've just got to carry that momentum forward into next year."




from the star on sunday

[Parkdale]

So I don't want this to turn into a Parkdale is stupid thread, this time. :p
Or a we suck thread.

don't worry, I have enough of those around here, and I know that's not the intention.

I might be the odd guy out on this topic, but I think that being better than the past is a success. That's just the criteria that I'm using to judge the season. Really this thread is about the individual criteria used to say if it was good or bad.

did I have a hell of a lot of fun this year? SUCCESS
did the club set a record for the longest goal drought ever? no? SUCCESS!
did the club get to the playoffs? almost.
did we not clobber two USL teams. EPIC FAIL

[Barbarez]

...and this is why the FO will keep selling tickets... guys who have never played a game of soccer judging success based on how much fun they had at the game. Nobody cares if you had a 'blast' at the game, there is still some of us who care about the quality of this team. The quality of our team is still shit and losing to USL teams and not making the play offs proves my point.

[Shaughno]

Again it depends on what you defined as results in the beginning of the year from my perspective.

Improvements does not equal success in my mind.

We were told the goals were to win the Nutrigrain Ultralight Kanuckistan Cup and to make the playoffs. Neither of those goals were achieved, therefore the success doesn't enter the equation.

Are we a better and improved team all around from last year? Damn right we are but I see success as measured in results and achieving goals.

[mclaren]

No, we didn't make the playoffs nor any substantial improvements unfortunately.

[CoachGT]

Bitterly disappointed by the Canada Cup (or Amway/Nutrilite whatever-it-is). happy about our home record in general, but think it could have been better. Disappointed with the road performances overall - several games seemed to have less than full effort. A little disappointed at the revolving door player policy. Better players overall though. Happy with the coach and his decisions.

If success is what you expected for the year, then I think we were successful. But I've still got a hollow feeling for what might have been.

[Boris]

i think improvement is just that...improvement.

Success, to me is defined by making the playoffs, not loosing to usl teams and what not.

Once again, it really depends what you think success is.....

[canadian_bhoy]

I think after next Saturday when we look back at the season, personally I will say that it has been a massive dissapointment.

It started with the lack of signings by Mo in the offseason which left us all (including Nigel Reed) scratching our heads as to why there weren't any improvements made.

Suddenly the additions of Laurent Robert, Rohan Ricketts and Amado Guevara gave us hope that the tide could be turned and we could be a force in the league. A winning streak at home and we we're flying!

I think the biggest dissapointment of the year was the downward spiral of Robert followed by the awful (and at times baffling) losing streak in the middle of the season.

That's not to say that there weren't positives from the season - there were several

- Robbo solidifies his role after being a little lost in the formation last year
- The addition of Ricketts and Guevara brought some style and flair to the team
- Sutton has a stand out season and does well to bounce back from last years concussion
- TFC shows that they have the potential to compete with any team in the league

Next season big improvements need to be made - the revolving door needs to slow and this team NEEDS to make the playoffs.

[Roogsy]

If I am constricted by a narrow definition of success (ie. playoffs, or for some people, MLS cup) then no, it was not a success.

Am I disappointed in this year? A little. But I saw enough improvement that this year is not a let-down either. I think next year is a defining year for the franchise. If there is any regression whatsoever, I think it would be devastating.

[Boris]

Next season big improvements need to be made - the revolving door needs to slow and this team NEEDS to make the playoffs.

thats it right there...the team for the past few weeks have played well due to the somewhat consistent roster (minus international games)

Next year is a very important year for the team. We all have expectations that we need to be met

[CoachGT]

Next year is a very important year for the team. We all have expectations that we need to be met

I think the expectations for more were there this year. I'm not sure that making the playoffs and getting put out early would have sufficed. I'd rather be where we are and move to the top of the table if we are ready to do so, rather than be competitive also-rans every year.

[Nuvinho]

1. League - Yes it was a success, we improved from last year. We brought in players will skill and who want to be here.

2. Canada Cup - A disgrace.

[Parkdale]

...and this is why the FO will keep selling tickets... guys who have never played a game of soccer judging success based on how much fun they had at the game. Nobody cares if you had a 'blast' at the game, there is still some of us who care about the quality of this team. The quality of our team is still shit and losing to USL teams and not making the play offs proves my point.


so let me ask you this.... if you didn't enjoy going to the game, then why would you keep going? I can have a fun at the match even if we loose. Support on the good days, support more on the bad days.


oh, and I played and reffed for years, in case that was directed specifically at me.

[olegunnar]

If I am constricted by a narrow definition of success (ie. playoffs, or for some people, MLS cup) then no, it was not a success.

Am I disappointed in this year? A little. But I saw enough improvement that this year is not a let-down either. I think next year is a defining year for the franchise. If there is any regression whatsoever, I think it would be devastating.


Come on man, I tried to have a civil thread.

Constricted by a narrow definition of success? You mean like league tables?
MLS cup? Not one person in this thread has said anything about the MLS cup...where'd that come from.

[Boris]

Come on man, I tried to have a civil thread.

Constricted by a narrow definition of success? You mean like league tables?
MLS cup? Not one person in this thread has said anything about the MLS cup...where'd that come from.

you get used to it :D

[Shaughno]

:lol: It's Roogsy man, he does that.

[Red Rat]

me no get it!

[Parkdale]

again..... like olegunnar was aiming for.....

what's your criteria for 'success' and did TFC meet that challenge

for most people, the simple answer is 'no we didn't make the playoffs' but if there's more to it, then describe:

[canadian_bhoy]

again..... like olegunnar was aiming for.....

what's your criteria for 'success' and did TFC meet that challenge

for most people, the simple answer is 'no we didn't make the playoffs' but if there's more to it, then describe:

Go read my post.

Oh and one of the Positives I forgot

John Carver +1

[Nodoubtguy]

This was a good year in my opinion. Yes, some games were tough, but there were many quality games to watch. The players on the pitch are of a higher level then what we had last year. The fact that we were in playoff contention until the final 2 weekends should mean something too.....how early were we out last year??

compare this year to last
2007 - 6 wins, 25 pts
2008 - 9 wins, 35 pts

I'd say 50% more wins and 40% more points is a success......

oh, and I had a blast this year, regardless of the games, being more involved and social within the group.....so yay me!!!

[SLBuu]

the way i see it is we had 2 coaches in 2 years...... you cant expect a team to go from last place to play-off contender with 2 different people at the helm of the ship.

The players had to work with two different styles of play from one year to the next while at the same time had to deal with the revolving door at TFC.

Those who expected major improvement this year are surely dissapointed or even upset but realistically i dont think TFC ever had much chance of making the playoffs this year.

The Canadian CCL spot was squandered, even after all i mentioned. There aren't any excuses for that one.

But next year, will be a defining year. Absolutley. TFC should make the playoffs, no excuses and no exceptions.

[Shaughno]

I'd go even further to include the team's own goals as a major defining point.

Since the team was expecting to make the playoffs and win the CCup, it was not a success for them.

[Roogsy]

Come on man, I tried to have a civil thread.

Constricted by a narrow definition of success? You mean like league tables?
MLS cup? Not one person in this thread has said anything about the MLS cup...where'd that come from.


That wasn't directed at you Ole but rather a general description of some people who are never satisfied short of winning it all. For some, that is the only definition of success. I didn't mean to indicate that this was your definition of success.

It was a general statement.

[Roogsy]

:lol: It's Roogsy man, he does that.

Excuse me?

[James Oliphant]

The goals, as stated by the club, were playoff qualification and the Canadian Championship. Failure, on both counts.

End of.

[Shaughno]

Excuse me?

Did you fart? I can't smell it, the joys of a stuffed nose :D


The goals were playoff qualification and the Canadian Championship. Failure, on both counts.

End of.

Exactly. Those were the goals set by the team. They were not met. Success was not had by the team.

Again, that's not to say there weren't improvements.

[Jay1974]

the way i see it is we had 2 coaches in 2 years...... you cant expect a team to go from last place to play-off contender with 2 different people at the helm of the ship.

The players had to work with two different styles of play from one year to the next while at the same time had to deal with the revolving door at TFC.

Those who expected major improvement this year are surely dissapointed or even upset but realistically i dont think TFC ever had much chance of making the playoffs this year.

The Canadian CCL spot was squandered, even after all i mentioned. There aren't any excuses for that one.

But next year, will be a defining year. Absolutley. TFC should make the playoffs, no excuses and no exceptions.

I agree 100%. I didn't expect to make the playoffs either. Losing out on the CCL spot is terrible, especially after the opening win in Montreal.

The season was not a success and it wasn't a total failure either. I think the playoffs are a realistic goal for year 3 of the franchise. If we're sitting here next year, out of the playoffs and out of the CCL, then that would be a total failure. I think it's too soon to expect to make the playoffs.

[Parkdale]

Success was not had by the team.


http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/images/avatars/yoda5.gif ???

[Oldtimer]

The team did almost exactly as I predicted and expected, so yes, it was a success in my mind, although not a resounding one.

[James Oliphant]

Again, that's not to say there weren't improvements.

Indeed there were...but strictly speaking, that's not the subject of this thread.

Funny how often I find myself in agreement with you. Us Republikans are s-m-r-t. ;)

[Shaughno]

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/images/avatars/yoda5.gif ???


Sorry, my translator broke. :D

[Boris]

Indeed there were...but strictly speaking, that's not the subject of this thread.

Funny how often I find myself in agreement with you. Us Republikans are s-m-r-t. ;)

thats the thing....some of us stated the team improved BUT...

[Shaughno]

Indeed there were...but strictly speaking, that's not the subject of this thread.

Funny how often I find myself in agreement with you. Us Republikans are s-m-r-t. ;)

That's what I've been trying to get across, improvements don't always equal success. You need to achieve a set goal to achieve success... at least that's what I got out of the word 'success' anyway. :p

[Roogsy]

^Isn't that the point? That people's definition of success varies?

[Cashcleaner]

There's no doubt that the team was improved overall from our inaugural season, but it obviously wasn't enough. Not making the playoffs is disappointing, but for me the real kick in the stomach is missing out on playing in CONCACAF. For the most part, we played like crap in the Canadian Championship and it cost us in the end.

Playoffs would have been nice, but what really cost us the year was our performances against Montreal and Vancouver.

[Boris]

^Isn't that the point? That people's definition of success varies?



Once again, it really depends what you think success is.....


thats the thing....:D

[Shaughno]

^Isn't that the point? That people's definition of success varies?


For sure. I stress, the team said their goals were playoffs and winning the Nutralite. Neither was accomplished so how were we successful?

[Heathen]

we played like shit from mid June until September arguably October, how can that be a success?

[koryo]

Summary:

1. this season: not a success
2. this season: measurable improvement (ok, not a great deal but improvement nonetheless), including:

1. we don't run out of gas on the 60th-70th minute anymore
2. injuries this season have been few and far between compared with last season
3. we won't finish dead last
4. we might just hit double digits in wins

Given that at the start of the season, the consensus around here was 10 wins or thereabouts, I won't say 2008 was a failure either.

[Roogsy]

^ I guess that is part of the confusion. It wasn't a success is probably a concensus. But it wasn't a failure either. So what do we call it?

[Shaughno]

Just because it wasn't a success doesn't mean it has to be a failure. ;)

[Parkdale]

So what do we call it?

a sophomore season

[Parkdale]

Just because it wasn't a success doesn't mean it has to be a failure. ;)


great. more jedi mind tricks

[Boris]

Just because it wasn't a success doesn't mean it has to be a failure. ;)

see how fast we get negative....

there were MANY positives....
but the fact remains the team didnt even live up to their own goals...

[Roogsy]

These aren't the droids you're looking for...

*Waves hand*

[Roogsy]

see how fast we get negative....

there were MANY positives....
but the fact remains the team didnt even live up to their own goals...

Just to be objective here...the thread does start by stating that the team failed and then asked for opinions. Not sure it was meant to be a happy-go-lucky thread to begin with or how we couldn't expect a thread that had some gripes in it? I think we need to temper our expectations when it comes to all threads down to the level of reality. If it's a thread touting what a great year it was and somebody came in and brought it down...I would agree with you. But this thread clearly wants to discuss the team's failure to meet it's own goals. Really...you should already be prepared to face some harsh realities about the team in this thread wouldn't you say?

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

Lets see 3 more wins, 10 more points then in 2007 with one more game to go, goals against are down, 2008 was a success, we came out of the gate flying, and finished the season strong, just the middle part was a struggle. One the team became settled with the new players we were alright. The teams fitness was another major positive this season thanks to Paul Winsper. Some fans had too high expectations for the team this year, when a modest improvement was more realistic. Year 2 is coming to a close and there is a more positive feel to the team then this time last season. Bring on 2009 and a playoff spot!! Toronto FC till i die!!

[Shaughno]

great. more jedi mind tricks

http://bp1.blogger.com/_92_f5pYWPYM/Ru8gca33OfI/AAAAAAAAAAg/9B8gUihD0Ps/s320/Jedi+Mind+Tricks+-+Violent+by+design+%28Delantera%29.jpg

I leave you with the grain of sand in life's hourglass
Devise your spell
Make demons rise out of hell
Grab you by your lapels and rob you of your outer shell
You feel the ill dire who sire in hellfire
I launch writers
Put your drawn on gong's wire
Jedi swordsman give rappers a foul fortune
Science to contortion your body into a coffin
Insane damage is done, you fuckin' with the army
We beat skulls in the shape of a wet bag of laundry


;)

[olegunnar]

Just to be objective here...the thread does start by stating that the team failed and then asked for opinions. Not sure it was meant to be a happy-go-lucky thread to begin with or how we couldn't expect a thread that had some gripes in it? I think we need to temper our expectations when it comes to all threads down to the level of reality. If it's a thread touting what a great year it was and somebody came in and brought it down...I would agree with you. But this thread clearly wants to discuss the team's failure to meet it's own goals. Really...you should already be prepared to face some harsh realities about the team in this thread wouldn't you say?

Uhm
You're doing it again.
Are we reading the same thread?

I asked people how they graded/judged the team and if they thought the year was a success.

Remember reading any of this?....

In another thread Parkdale has said he believes this year was a success because he thinks the on field product was better this year than last. Fair enough.

That made me think that rather than a poll or a simple yes/no, it would be interesting to see not only if people thought this year was a success, but also how they graded the team.


Me, personally, my expectations were 1) playoffs (the captain guaranteed it) and 2) Canada Cup win (we're in the "better" league). So in my books the year was a failure since we were 0 for 2.


What were other people's expectations based on? Did the team meet them?

[Boris]

Just to be objective here...the thread does start by stating that the team failed and then asked for opinions. Not sure it was meant to be a happy-go-lucky thread to begin with or how we couldn't expect a thread that had some gripes in it? I think we need to temper our expectations when it comes to all threads down to the level of reality. If it's a thread touting what a great year it was and somebody came in and brought it down...I would agree with you. But this thread clearly wants to discuss the team's failure to meet it's own goals. Really...you should already be prepared to face some harsh realities about the team in this thread wouldn't you say?

i agree...i just meant that the threads can be de-railed very fast and then a already negative discussion becomes well...what we're famous for

[olegunnar]

I disagree with some people in that I believe success is binary. Either you succeed in attaining your goals or you don't. There's no try only do. There's my obligatory Yoda reference.


My personal opinion is that the team failed in meeting its goals. So overall the year was a failure.

That said though, there were bright spots that indicate we're further along than we were at this point last year. That's encouraging.

The challenge now is to build on the encouraging aspects of this year and not be a failure again.

I agree with those in this thread that say next year is crucial. Either we progress and meet our goals, or we regress. Regression, when you've never won anything is a pretty bleak option. There's a poster or two in the sports forum that support the Detroit Lions that would know a little bit about sports teams regressing from bad to worse.

[Shaughno]

ole, definitely don't disagree with your statement. My point was more that it wasn't a failure in that I think we made some key acquisitions in Carver, Winsper, Ricketts, Jo.Smith, Guevara, Barrett, Ibrahim.

In terms of just plain meeting the goals, definitely failed.

[Shakes McQueen]

+ More points, more wins, more goals, better goal difference
- No Playoffs, no CCL, long winless streak

On the balance, I would consider this season an improvement, not a "success" per se.

And if we improve next season, as much as we did this season, we will make the playoffs. Same for the CCL.

Had we continued our streak of futility, and not turned it around the last 3-4 games, I would have considered this season somewhat of a letdown.

- Scott

[olegunnar]

ole, definitely don't disagree with your statement. My point was more that it wasn't a failure in that I think we made some key acquisitions in Carver, Winsper, Ricketts, Jo.Smith, Guevara, Barrett, Ibrahim.

In terms of just plain meeting the goals, definitely failed.

I think we agree. I think there were some real positives from this year.

I think this off season we may have a bit more tangible evidence do better next year as opposed to last off season when it was blind faith.

[Detroit_TFC]

If we had converted a few of those ties to wins, we'd now be clearing our calendars to attend playoff games.

Which is to say, despite significant problems with our squad especially up front, looking at the season as a whole we were competitive with the league. That may not mean that we played sterling football all the time, but neither did our competitors. That's MLS.

The only people in the league who should be bitching are the Galaxy fans, and who gives a toss about them anyway.

[Fort York Redcoat]

A success? No I don't think objectives were close to being met but that's not my criteria. I wanted improvement and got it. Bigger players on paper, money coming in for players going out (that will become the usual in this league) and more points.

[Oldtimer]

"Mediocrity" I think sums up this season.

[TFC07]

...and this is why the FO will keep selling tickets... guys who have never played a game of soccer judging success based on how much fun they had at the game. Nobody cares if you had a 'blast' at the game, there is still some of us who care about the quality of this team. The quality of our team is still shit and losing to USL teams and not making the play offs proves my point.

Bingo.

Saying our team is improved compare to last year's team isn't really saying much at all.

[sulfur]

To my mind, we had a number of successes... but at the same time, there were a number of EPIC FAILS (as Sparky would put it), the big one of those being the CCL.

Missing the playoffs? I wasn't expecting them to be perfectly honest. Hoping for? Yes. Expecting? No.

We appear to have finally started settling in on a roster that can play 90 minutes without too many mental errors. I consider that a big success.

We have found a coach that is interested in the team and seems to be enjoying his time here. Big success.

We still haven't got a consistent goal scorer (though Barrett and Ricketts both show signs of potential on that front).

We still don't have a solidly consistent defense, although we're looking slightly less porous than we did a couple of months ago.

Oh, and we've got a promising future between Ibby, Jo Smith, and Nana (for example).

Overall? Improvement... some successes, but not so much as to say that the season was a full on success.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Bingo.

Saying our team is improved compare to last year's team isn't really saying much at all.

And saying they're shit does? To each his own.:noidea:

[TFC07]

And saying they're shit does? To each his own.:noidea:

I am not saying we don't have talent on our team, but however, we simply didn't perform to our potential. That is why I consider this year to be a failure overall. (not making to the playoffs while shit teams like KC and RBNJ are going to play in playoffs and not winning Canadian Championship is part of the reason as well)

Also I didn't like how majority of players on our team don't play with a lot of heart and passion (excluding last few games).

[olegunnar]

A success? No I don't think objectives were close to being met but that's not my criteria. I wanted improvement and got it. Bigger players on paper, money coming in for players going out (that will become the usual in this league) and more points.

Fair enough.

Thanks for the rational reply.

Will your expectations change for next year? Will playoffs or Canada Cup be something you'll ever expect? Or will it be that same as this past year (more points and bigger players).

I think they both end up getting us to the same place (more and more points eventually will get you in the playoffs).

[olegunnar]

I am not saying we don't have talent on our team, but however, we simply didn't perform to our potential. That is why I consider this year to be a failure overall. (not making to the playoffs while shit teams like KC and RBNJ are going to play in playoffs and not winning Canadian Championship is part of the reason as well)

Also I didn't like how majority of players on our team don't play with a lot of heart and passion (excluding last few games).

Columbus winning the league hurts the most to me.

They don't have spectacular star power, but they have a balanced roster (we don't) and they give good efforts consistently (we don't). AND they prove you can have a great home record even if you have EPIC FAIL support.

My perception of MLS is it's the anti-EPL, while it's true Houston is back to back champions, it's a very open league. It's not like we're a newly promoted club struggling to nip at the heels of the big 4, we have every right to think we're in the mix to make the playoffs

[Fort York Redcoat]

Fair enough.

Thanks for the rational reply.

Will your expectations change for next year? Will playoffs or Canada Cup be something you'll ever expect? Or will it be that same as this past year (more points and bigger players).

I think they both end up getting us to the same place (more and more points eventually will get you in the playoffs).

Absolutely. I acknowledge the the failure to achieve success in our playoffs goal and Canada Cup this year but I won't disregard or ignore the improvements made from last year.

I personally want a Canada Cup run first.:D

[Fort York Redcoat]

Columbus winning the league hurts the most to me.

They don't have spectacular star power, but they have a balanced roster (we don't) and they give good efforts consistently (we don't). AND they prove you can have a great home record even if you have EPIC FAIL support.

My perception of MLS is it's the anti-EPL, while it's true Houston is back to back champions, it's a very open league. It's not like we're a newly promoted club struggling to nip at the heels of the big 4, we have every right to think we're in the mix to make the playoffs

Yes! I'm not the only one calling them winners of the league!

and I agree with your sentiments on the league.

[TFC07]

Columbus winning the league hurts the most to me.

They don't have spectacular star power, but they have a balanced roster (we don't) and they give good efforts consistently (we don't). AND they prove you can have a great home record even if you have EPIC FAIL support.

My perception of MLS is it's the anti-EPL, while it's true Houston is back to back champions, it's a very open league. It's not like we're a newly promoted club struggling to nip at the heels of the big 4, we have every right to think we're in the mix to make the playoffs

I agree that we need a balanced roster, but however, if you look at some teams (like KC) compare to ours, you see that we aren't a weak of team at all. The fact we were still in the playoff race this late in this season while haven't a won game for months, just shows how weak most of teams are in MLS. Despite being a 2nd year club, we got good enough team to make it to the playoffs which we failed to do. So that is why I consider this season a failure.(Also not winning CDN championship hurts as well).

[Steve]

Just to throw another variable into the mix, in my mind, the success of this year depends on how we do next year. I am a proponent of slow, measured growth of a team. Instead of trying to peak and fade too fast, I want a team that's built over years, and that is good over years. So, if you look at our record (25 points first season, 35 (at least) this season) it is actually a very good start to a nice slow build.

That being said, it relies on us getting more than 35 next season (I would say around 42 would be on pace). If we get less than 35 next season, it will mean this season wasn't good on the merrits of building a better team, and certainly wasn't good on its own merrits.

So, 42 points or more next season, this season was a success. Less than 35, this season was a failure. It's all quite simple.

[dupont]

If you told me before the season that TFC would have this record by the end I would have thought it sounds like a nice improvement over last year.
The problem was that they started so strongly that I stupidly altered my expectations too quickly and thought they would be one of the top teams in the league.
If I would have stuck to my initial expectations then I would be pleased but because I didn't I found that middle portion of the season to be extremely hard to handle.

[olegunnar]

I'm still trying to get convinced that counting points over position is worth while.

Take United for example, they won the league last year with 85 points I believe, the year before they won with 87 I think.

Had they had the same amount of points ( a league winning amount 2 years running) the year Chelsea won with 95 points they would have been SOL.

That's why I prefer...playoffs, or position in the table over a relative benchmark such as points.

[tim90]

good year

[flatpicker]

good year

I understood that!

well said tim!

[Beach_Red]

I think the biggest dissapointment of the year was the downward spiral of Robert followed by the awful (and at times baffling) losing streak in the middle of the season.

Yes, that streak was easily the most disappointing thing in the season. The only good thing about it was that the team changed a lot of the players - they didn't make those dumb statements about, "sticking with the guys we've got," and just keep sinking.

That's a small positive to take from such a crappy losing streak, but it set the right tone.

With the salary cap and weird schedule that doesn't line up with the rest of the world, MLS teams need to improv a lot and grab players whenever they can. It's not the best way to run a team, but it's the way it is in this league.

[Carts]

I'm one of those sports guys who says "success is winning the MLS Cup" (or whatever cup/title your chasing)...

Was this season a success? No...

Did we improve? Yes...

That being said, you can succeed at smaller goals on the way to your main goal...

Those being things like: Improving from the past season, making the playoffs, winning the East, winning the supporters shield - you can have success acheiving those goals, but in the end, after a few years of building it boils down to winning the big one - the MLS Cup...

We're on track to continue building to that goal next year...

Championships take time...

Carts...

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

I agree that we need a balanced roster, but however, if you look at some teams (like KC) compare to ours, you see that we aren't a weak of team at all. The fact we were still in the playoff race this late in this season while haven't a won game for months, just shows how weak most of teams are in MLS. Despite being a 2nd year club, we got good enough team to make it to the playoffs which we failed to do. So that is why I consider this season a failure.(Also not winning CDN championship hurts as well).


its not a failure if you win more then you did last term, its not a failure if you gain 10 more points then last year, The Canadian championship was not our to walk away with, we are a decade behind both the Impact and Caps and that can't be made up in two years...not possible. If they league didnt force up to play short handed im sure we would be in the playoffs.

[ManUtd4ever]

The season can be judged an overall success based on TFC's improvement in the standings and the foundation established by MoJo going into a very promising off season. However, I have many painful memories to reflect on during a season in which TFC was so tantalizingly close to qualifying for the champion's league as well as the playoffs. Despite international callups, injuries, and questionable officiating throughout the season, I can't help but feel that the club underachieved on the pitch given the skill level of our players...

[TorCanSoc]

Success, fail? Great question, great thread (finally). Before reading the thread I would have said fail. But now I've upgraded to I don't know.

Its retarded... but I'm already optimistic about next year. I feel the DP stuff is not lip service. I love the new ticket package that only includes one International Friendly, and two possibly three CCL games, great call. I went to the shameless Merch & Meet, but I got Brennan and Robbo to sign a kid's jersey and they gave my son a personalized message (great guys).

[GuelphStorm2007]

This season was not a success, But for a second year team it was a inprovement. They went from 6 wins to 9 wins , They scored a lot more goals in comparision to last year. They lost 3 games on virtually the last kick of the games. The only drawback was the period between July and August when they could not even muster a win.

[Batman]

I respectfully feel we can not categorize the year as a success.
Too many losses plain and simple.

As well, I feel Mo hasn't demonstrated a real ability to build a quality squad. Too many players in then out, and a number of them that are still to go.

Frankly, I think it's doing the team a disservice to imply we would think this years results being successful results. I even think Mo or JC would both not characterize the season as a success.

[marquis]

I think we can talk about improvement and and still being an expansion team and all that...but not winning the Canada Cup against 2 USL teams is simply unexcusable.
I can make peace with not making the playoffs this year, but I can' forgive them (yet) for the Canada Cup embarassement...

[rocker]

to have 10 more points (and maybe more) over last season is a solid gain.
Our home record is also better. Since so many people are always complaining about the "hard earned money they spend on TFC" not being rewarded -- well the home record was pretty good... we also saw some great games at BMO (even if they couldn't quite finish to turn some of those ties into wins).

Year 3 will be the true test. Is this improvement going to continue? If we gain 10 more points next year we'll be in the playoffs and perhaps a finals contender. I always said I was giving Mo 3 years, and as long as I see improvement each season, I'm happy.

It's interesting tho -- when polled the day before the season started, the majority of people on this board picked TFC to finish worse, or exactly where they will finish. The majority did not think they would make the playoffs. So whether or not Mojo or Brennan said they'd make it, the fact is, many fans thought otherwise. I hope there's no revisionist thinking going on here with some of ya ;)

[Corcai]

Not a success but hopefully a learning curve is built in.

Barbarez, GFY.

[Jack]

I don't look at it in terms of absolute success vs. absolute failure.

This isn't a one-off.

For our second year, we got better. Whatever you may say about how bad we were last year, we were better.

Am I satisfied? No. Do I want the improvement to continue? Yes.

But I am seeing movement in the right direction. Year two was better than year one. Year three must continue that trend.

I think that the goals the team set itself this season were possible, but not probable. We learned valuable lessons about our team. I think there may have been some overconfidence in terms of the Canadian Championship. We all made it a foregone conclusion that we would win. Well guess what...a tough, well-coached team won the tournament with heart and effort (while never beating us, they did what they had to do).

I would imagine that will change next season.

The club improved by 10 points. If we can improve by half that amount next season we'll be in the playoffs. We only lost two at home (too many ties, but still).

So I see good things and I see areas for improvement.

Success and failure at the same time. Every ball, every challenge, every moment of every match is an opportunity for success or failure. The season has been full of both. Now I want more of the former and less of the latter for 2009.

[james]

i exspected TFC if we didn't make the playoffs at the very least we would win the Canada Championship and qualify for Concacaf Champions League.......we didn't so it was a failure!!!

[Bobo]

NOT A SUCCESS! Don't let ML$E catch wind that people think it was....

[trane]

To my mind, we had a number of successes... but at the same time, there were a number of EPIC FAILS (as Sparky would put it), the big one of those being the CCL.

Missing the playoffs? I wasn't expecting them to be perfectly honest. Hoping for? Yes. Expecting? No.

We appear to have finally started settling in on a roster that can play 90 minutes without too many mental errors. I consider that a big success.

We have found a coach that is interested in the team and seems to be enjoying his time here. Big success.

We still haven't got a consistent goal scorer (though Barrett and Ricketts both show signs of potential on that front).

We still don't have a solidly consistent defense, although we're looking slightly less porous than we did a couple of months ago.

Oh, and we've got a promising future between Ibby, Jo Smith, and Nana (for example).

Overall? Improvement... some successes, but not so much as to say that the season was a full on success.

I agree. Bottom line, at the end of the day we improved compared to last season, but not enought to say this was a truly succesfull season. We have to take a considerable step forward next year.

[bhoybobby]

No this year was not a success. How the hell, knowing MLS rules, would you sign so many internationalists.

Mo left us in a deep embarrassing roster hole, where we were destined to lose points due to scarcity of talent. I say we were mismanaged from the top, naivety & poor judgement doomed us.

Then again, the expectation bar has been set nice & low since day one, trouble is, for many here that's o.k. More's the pity.

[Canadian Blue]

I agree. Bottom line, at the end of the day we improved compared to last season, but not enought to say this was a truly succesfull season. We have to take a considerable step forward next year.


How exactly did we improve over last season? We didn't make the playoffs last year and low and behold we didn't make the playoffs again this year

Bottom of the league last year and pretty much bottom of the league this year

Sure our team may be better on paper but onthe field it is still very poor quality.

[Shaughno]

How exactly did we improve over last season? We didn't make the playoffs last year and low and behold we didn't make the playoffs again this year

Bottom of the league last year and pretty much bottom of the league this year

Sure our team may be better on paper but onthe field it is still very poor quality.

Technically, we are one position above last year... excluding SJ from the equation. :lol: One place in the table... if you can consider that a success. ;)

[trane]

How exactly did we improve over last season? We didn't make the playoffs last year and low and behold we didn't make the playoffs again this year

Bottom of the league last year and pretty much bottom of the league this year

Sure our team may be better on paper but onthe field it is still very poor quality.

In terms of wins and points, we improved. I agree that for the most part we look shit on the pitch. But to be honest I increasinly think the entire MLS is shit on most days. There have been times this year, that I think that we played a relatively organized sound game, mostly at home, and all to seldom to be sure. [ I am trying to be positive as I do not want to give up on the team]

[Pachuco]

I'd go even further to include the team's own goals as a major defining point.

Since the team was expecting to make the playoffs and win the CCup, it was not a success for them.

Couldn't agree with you more. As per the team's goals, they were not succesfull.

Furthermore, if I was judging them by what I feel success should have been this year, then they didn't succeed. Major reason is they couldn't win the Canada Cup. If they won the Canada Cup, then this season would have been very close to a success (even though they missed the playoffs). Realistically, we should've won the Canada Cup as we were favorites.

[Barbarez]

In terms of wins and points, we improved. I agree that for the most part we look shit on the pitch. But to be honest I increasinly think the entire MLS is shit on most days. There have been times this year, that I think that we played a relatively organized sound game, mostly at home, and all to seldom to be sure. [ I am trying to be positive as I do not want to give up on the team]

Last place to second last place is a major improvement, i agree.

[Stouffville_RPB]

Depends what you define as success. We had our ups and downs. The Canadian Championship was disappointing but as far as improving on last years form that was a success.

[felipe]

As far as I'm concerned the season isn't over yet...I'm more interested in seeing what transpires this offseason. If we lose all or part of Robbo, Ricketts, Dichio, Carver, Wynne, I'll consider this season an epic failure. To paraphrase another, sustained 'mediocrity'.

If we retain the bulk of these five important components, I'm happy with the progress that was made this season. Sure the Nutralite debacle was disapointing, but it'll just serve to make the success that much sweeter when it comes.

But if Robbo leaves? Dichio retires? Ricketts back to England? It'll be just like year one. It'll be very hard to stomach.

[Parkdale]

personally.... I think this forum is having a success with this thread because we're actually discussing things like adults. WE WIN!

[Toronto_Bhoy]

Over all it was a disappointing season for me and therefore UNSUCCESSFUL.

Disappointing off season…lack of signings.
Disappointing quality of road performances…especially in the last 15 minutes.
Disappointing performance in the Canada Cup…
Disappointing end run…no playoffs.

I think the sign in the South End Saturday summed it up for me…

WE DESERVE BETTER!

Better from the league…OFFICIATING.
Better from MLSE…SIGNINGS
Better from the players…CONCENTRATION FOR 90+

The best part of the season for me was being at BMO with you lot…YOUR COMMITMENT to the game needs to be replicated by the parties listed above.

Great work guys…

[Shaughno]

Can't say I disagree with an ounce of that post. :D

[trane]

personally.... I think this forum is having a success with this thread because we're actually discussing things like adults. WE WIN!


You had to say that. Well FU PARKY WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? NEVER CALL ME AN ADULT AGAIN. I MAY BE OLD IN YEARS BUT I AM A CHILD IN MY MIND. :mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Parkdale]

Better from the league…OFFICIATING


oh please please please please please.

[Shaughno]

You tell'm Trane. :lol:

[mclaren]

In terms of wins and points, we improved. I agree that for the most part we look shit on the pitch. But to be honest I increasinly think the entire MLS is shit on most days. There have been times this year, that I think that we played a relatively organized sound game, mostly at home, and all to seldom to be sure. [ I am trying to be positive as I do not want to give up on the team]

And that's where it matters, on the pitch. Let's not sugarcoat it folks, we've barely improved over last year. I like John Carver and want him to do well, but if he doesn't improve by mid next season, it could be time for him to go. Mo Johnson should have gone already.

[Parkdale]

Mo Johnson should have gone already.


I disagree. If Mo was coach, then yes, he should have been shown the door.
He's doing what he does best (play trader Mo) and we need someone who
knows the way the league works. Carver does not, and I'm not sure if any
FO people know the ins and outs of the system. Someone who was working
for the raptors 3 years ago should NOT be calling the shots on the field.

Carver is a coach, and from everything I've seen the players respect him
and want to play well for him. That is the SOLE PURPOSE of a coach ---
Get the players to play at the best of their abilities. It was starting to work.
I expect that next year things under Carver will start much better than now.

[Shaughno]

^^ Wholy fuck.. I agree. :lol:

[mclaren]

Unfortunately we have a manager and director of soccer who have no record of achievement in their respective positions at any level. That's where a lot of my concern comes from - if they had been elsewhere and proved themselves in some capacity before coming here I could see the light.

Mo Johnston failed as manager at the Red Bulls and John Carver failed as Leeds manager and as assistant manager at Luton (albeit with severe financial restrictions).

I hope they prove me wrong.

[Shaughno]

Mo failed at NY because he wasn't allowed to do anything without pissing off his 'higher ups'. ;) Just an FYI.

[olegunnar]

I disagree. If Mo was coach, then yes, he should have been shown the door.
He's doing what he does best (play trader Mo) and we need someone who
knows the way the league works. Carver does not, and I'm not sure if any
FO people know the ins and outs of the system. Someone who was working
for the raptors 3 years ago should NOT be calling the shots on the field.

Carver is a coach, and from everything I've seen the players respect him
and want to play well for him. That is the SOLE PURPOSE of a coach ---
Get the players to play at the best of their abilities. It was starting to work.
I expect that next year things under Carver will start much better than now.

I disagree

I don't think that the lack of a qualified in house replacement is a good enough reason to retain someone.
When I've gone down the progressive discipline route with direct reports, I never once thought "crap, if I fire this person I'll have to do a job posting on Workopolis or Monster.ca since no one here has their skill set"

I'm also of the opinion that the whole Trader Mo stuff is similar to the belief we get screwed on penalty decisions. There are a lot of bad moves that seem to be forgotten in lieu of Dichio, Wynn, Barrett type moves.

I think the throwing sh!t at the wall and seeing what sticks type of management Mo seems to aspire too is a detriment to our consistency on and off the field.

[Beach_Red]

Unfortunately we have a manager and director of soccer who have no record of achievement in their respective positions at any level. That's where a lot of my concern comes from - if they had been elsewhere and proved themselves in some capacity before coming here I could see the light.

Next year will certainly be the turning point.

You could also say that Toronto had fans with no record of achievement, too, and probably that had a lot to do with trying to attract management here. Now, after two years of fan support we can say things like, "We deserve better," but when TFC was out offering the job I doubt very many people were too interested in coming to Toronto. It's not like MLSE was 100% behind the idea of soccer and was pulling out all the stops.

Certainly the Toronto media should be taking a far amount of the blame for not getting behind this team sooner. It seems like a long time ago now, but remember when the team was first announced how many in the media were so quick to say it wouldn't work.

It looks like the foundations of a real team are being built - and with such a reluctant ownership, that's an accomplishment we shouldn't discount too quickly.

[TFC Via Buffalo]

I was all set to come in here and go "Yes, the season was a success." Then I looked back to the summer. Ugh. The losing streak and the Canada Cup debacle. Robert being a peice of trash. The inability to bring in a capable defender. I'm really hoping we get this ship righted this year as this will be my last year as a full season ticket holder before I move away. I'll be in NYC, and we all know I can't get a quality team or gameday experience in that city!

[Toronto_Bhoy]

Here are a couple of quotes from Nigel Reed's blog…

On winning at home…


Let’s not beat about the bush here – it was the first home win in more than four months. Eight league games have come and gone since the team last collected maximum points and any successful team builds its foundations based on winning the majority of its home games.

On scoring at home…


Despite the distinct advantage of playing to noisy, supportive full-houses in Toronto, John Carver’s team apparently suffers from stage fright. The Reds have scored only 17 goals on home turf – comfortably the worst total in MLS and, worryingly, no better than the expansion year.

Success can be measured a number of different ways but I tend to look at execution rather than results.

Yes we're 10 points above last year with a game to go. But when I think on where we could have finished this season with some late game concentration and timely "open play" goals from our "quality" players…I just can't be satisfied with the end result…

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/blogs/2008/10/happy_ending_belies_underlying.html

[TFC_Toon]

A success.....no.
An improvement statistically (points).....yes.
Too often we came away with nothing when at least one point was on the cards, difference between being in or out of the playoffs this season.
Our away form remains a major concern for the second season in a row.

Interesting comments above on the home form as well, after our brilliant start in May we faded away badly.

[Halifax.T.F.C.fan]

Moe Johnson and John Carver have no excuses for next year. I expect success in MLS and Champions League.

[Barbarez]

...basically the only thing tfc 'improved' in was total points. Every other stat, they've failed miserably.

[Hitcho]

Improved, yes (better quality games and performances, better players, better staff).

Success, no (no play-offs, no CCL).

I really wanted to win the Canada Cup, but I also think that playing in the CCL would have killed us. We could barely manage the regular season with our squad, so all those extra games and travelling would have been a massive burden on us if we'd made it, and think how the internationals would have affected us there too - we'd have been murdered. So it's a two edged sword. I'd rather make the play-offs than get creamed in the CCL. Look what happened to DCU at the start of this season in the league and then in the CCL. We're several notches lower than them in terms of quality and depth. Basically I'd hate to see the bread and butter of the league games ruined by playing in the CCL. But then again, not winning the Canada Cup was a real burn. That stung (although at least we never actually lost to Montreal and beat them on their home turf).

[tlear]

We are not second worst currently.. LA and SJ are under us, depending on next game we can actually endup 4th from the bottom I think.

Success? kinda. We improved a lot, but we still have ways to go

[Hitcho]

Moe Johnson and John Carver have no excuses for next year. I expect success in MLS and Champions League.

This is a bit unrealistic. We're starting below just about every other team in the league, and they'll all improve over the off-season too. It's going to be a gradual process. We improved this season, and we need to keep improving next season, which will hopefully mean a play-off berth and winning the Canada Cup (although I don't think we have the squad to deal with the CCL frankly, especially given our international problems). And don't forget we're in a much harder Conference than the Western teams (SJ and Seattle are likely to be their lowest two teams, while we've got DCU and Kansas as the two above us, for example).

A DP could make a big difference to next season, because as a striker we might edge enough extra goals to make a significant difference in terms of points, and as a defender we might gain the stability to turn draws into wins.

[Hitcho]

...basically the only thing tfc 'improved' in was total points. Every other stat, they've failed miserably.

The only true measure of improvement in a league system is points. We improved significantly there. The same amount of improvement next season will see us into the play-offs with ease.

[Shaughno]

We are not second worst currently.. LA and SJ are under us, depending on next game we can actually endup 4th from the bottom I think.

Success? kinda. We improved a lot, but we still have ways to go


Looking at it right now, if you remove the newcomer, we're tied for second last. Exactly one place above last year. Hardly much of an improvement in that sense.

[Mark in Ottawa]

Improved... Yes.

Success... No. Not given what they set out to achieve (playoff berth and champions league success)

and Yes. Survived some brutal FIFA dates without embarassing themselves, Had coach John have a chance to see just what he is up against as an MLS coach and he seems willing to stick around, Promoted/Sold a player which is an achievement so early on in the franchise history.

Looking forward... the fans are becoming demanding and I believe that the team is on track as I am a firm believer in the slow & steady five year plan.

[Mark in Ottawa]

NOT A SUCCESS! Don't let ML$E catch wind that people think it was....
Ahhh you see... there is a classic difference in the definition of success.

For MLSE the Maple Leafs are a success.

For TFC it is too early to tell if the fanbase as a whole will accept mediocrity. Obviously any of the supporters on here will not accept it.

The question is if MLSE wants to continue to operate with fan support making the gameday an experience. They goof around with this proven formula at their own peril.

[Hitcho]

Ahhh you see... there is a classic difference in the definition of success.

For MLSE the Maple Leafs are a success.

For TFC it is too early to tell if the fanbase as a whole will accept mediocrity. Obviously any of the supporters on here will not accept it.

The question is if MLSE wants to continue to operate with fan support making the gameday an experience. They goof around with this proven formula at their own peril.

I know the Leafs are a case unto themselves, but the better TFC do, the more money MLSE will make out of them. Sponsorship deals will go up in price, demand for tickets will increase and demand for merchandise 9especially shirts) will also go up. You can't really compare us to the leafs because hockey is the holy grail in canada. Football isn't, and whilst the hardcore fan base will probably never die no matter what the success levels on the pitch, the family zone tickets and corporate ones will if the team continually sucks, and that is where MLSE will be hurt most fnancially, along with lower sponsorship deals. The leafs are basically immune ot this since they can (and do) suck big time every year now but it has no effect on prices or demand. TFC isn't that immune.

[Tintin]

Improved... Yes.

Success... No. Not given what they set out to achieve (playoff berth and champions league success)

and Yes. Survived some brutal FIFA dates without embarassing themselves, Had coach John have a chance to see just what he is up against as an MLS coach and he seems willing to stick around, Promoted/Sold a player which is an achievement so early on in the franchise history.

Looking forward... the fans are becoming demanding and I believe that the team is on track as I am a firm believer in the slow & steady five year plan.


Agreed. It was not a success. Winning starts with a winners mentality so no it was not a succes. However, after admiting to that, you have to look at positives and building blocks. We tokk steps and this team has potentail if managment tweaks it right.

But again: NOT A SUCCESS

[Kenny/Boozemaster/Lenny/togetherness/Roc le Roc]

I think this year was a huge success off the field AGAIN ??
But correct on the field was not .. There already seems to be a bit of mentality that we are not good enough or that we can't win yet ..
The winning needs to be believed in before it happens..

[Oldtimer]

Ahhh you see... there is a classic difference in the definition of success.

For MLSE the Maple Leafs are a success.

For TFC it is too early to tell if the fanbase as a whole will accept mediocrity. Obviously any of the supporters on here will not accept it.

The question is if MLSE wants to continue to operate with fan support making the gameday an experience. They goof around with this proven formula at their own peril.

They realize all right that TFC/Raptors/Marlies/Jays/Argos, etc. are not the Leafs and the fans won't accept unlimited mediocrity.

That's why they haven't expanded the seating at BMO despite having 13,000 on the SSH waiting list.

[Hitcho]

I think last season was a huge success, in that we just needed to get off the ground and see if TFC could fly as a successful venture. Clearly it can, and all the many positive and magical moments we had in the first season ranked last seaosn as a major success. However, this season those things are good to have experienced again, but on their own they're not enough. Ultimately TFC is a football club, and success is judged by results. I think making the play-offs and winning the Canada Cup next season would represent success, but ideally we'd have done that this season. (although we need a way better squad to play MLS and CCL, IMHO).