Rumor: Ruiz to leave for Columbus

[Ossington Mental Youth]

http://rojomania.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=2217197:BlogPost:6809
http://www.mls-rumors.net/2008/10/incomingoutgoing-carlos-pescadito-ruiz.html

no surprise if this does come to fruition

[Roogsy]

Interesting, the article in Spanish mentions that DeRo would be looking to leave Houston for Toronto next season.

And it says Ruiz played all 90 minutes of the game this weekend? Ass...

[TFC 420]

the KKKrew can have him.
Ruiz is useless.

[Shaughno]

Ruiz to CLB
DeRo to TFC
????? to HOU


Three way....????

[Ossington Mental Youth]

im sure we will get money, prob 200k allocations.
What a cunt.
Fuck that dude.
I was willing to give him a chance but he fucked that up when he played for Guatamuala this weekend.
Fuck you el pescadito, you ego centric overrated passed it twat.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

im sure we will get money, prob 200k allocations.
What a cunt.
Fuck that dude.
I was willing to give him a chance but he fucked that up when he played for Guatamuala this weekend.
Fuck you el pescadito, you ego centric overrated passed it twat.

[joel]

I don't think it's his decision to go to columbus, doesn't make him a cunt if another team wants him, and we are getting our DP next year and are looking to trade him anyway...

[Parkdale]

interesting.

I hate Columbus but would be grateful if they take that prick off our hands.

[Lucky Strike]

im sure we will get money, prob 200k allocations.
What a cunt.
Fuck that dude.
I was willing to give him a chance but he fucked that up when he played for Guatamuala this weekend.
Fuck you el pescadito, you ego centric overrated passed it twat.

Same here. I never thought we'd have gotten a bad deal when we gave up some supplemental draft picks but we have. Still though, I still think it was worth trying even if he did end being more worthless than the Zimbabwean dollar.

[Parkdale]

doesn't make him a cunt if another team wants him,

but it makes him a cunt that he could play for one team but be injured for our team. I understand the games have a different level of importance to the players, but if you aren't going to play for your home club, then you sure as hell shouldn't be taking a paycheck from them either.

[Shaughno]

I don't think it's his decision to go to columbus, doesn't make him a cunt if another team wants him, and we are getting our DP next year and are looking to trade him anyway...


Agreed. Also think about this. He's been off injured, training on FieldTurf to try and rehab a knee injury. Spends a couple days rehabbing on proper grass and he said it felt better, not 100%, but better. Then he played, big deal. It's a bigger deal if he doesn't feel 'up to it' after coming back again. If anything, his training on actual grass benefitted us for the rest of this season by allowing him to train at full capacity without worrying about reaggrivating it.

Regardless, I didn't expect him to stay past this season anyway.

[Lucky Strike]

but it makes him a cunt that he could play for one team but be injured for our team. I understand the games have a different level of importance to the players, but if you aren't going to play for your home club, then you sure as hell shouldn't be taking a paycheck from them either.

We could pay him in fists to the face, or boots to the ass.

Exchange rate: 5 to the dollar.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Same here. I never thought we'd have gotten a bad deal when we gave up some supplemental draft picks but we have. Still though, I still think it was worth trying even if he did end being more worthless than the Zimbabwean dollar.
yep


but it makes him a cunt that he could play for one team but be injured for our team. I understand the games have a different level of importance to the players, but if you aren't going to play for your home club, then you sure as hell shouldn't be taking a paycheck from them either.
and yep

fuck that doooood
fucking hate columbus n all and this just makes the hatred more pure.

[Shaughno]

but it makes him a cunt that he could play for one team but be injured for our team. I understand the games have a different level of importance to the players, but if you aren't going to play for your home club, then you sure as hell shouldn't be taking a paycheck from them either.

Before you make a bold statement like that, wait to see if he suits up for us first. As I just mentioned, he stated before the game that he felt better but not 100%. If he comes back saying he's still hurt, that's when you lay statements out. Until then, chill.

[canadian_bhoy]

Too much fluctuation in the TFC roster - we need some stability!!!!

To hell with Ruiz, he never wanted to be here and he's a dirty player to boot. Another quality signing by Mo

[Shaughno]

More dirty than Guevara?... or Velez for that matter?

[Parkdale]

Until then, chill.


right. you're so chill they call you Mr.Freeze.

[flatpicker]

More dirty than Guevara?... or Velez for that matter?

More dirty than my younger brother who has decided to let his hair self-clean???

[canadian_bhoy]

More dirty than Guevara?... or Velez for that matter?

Ruiz is dirtier than Guevara (how many times has he kicked someone in the face? - but Amado takes the gold medal for diving.

[joel]

but it makes him a cunt that he could play for one team but be injured for our team. I understand the games have a different level of importance to the players, but if you aren't going to play for your home club, then you sure as hell shouldn't be taking a paycheck from them either.

I'm with Jay on this one, if he doesn't play for us in the next game (and was up for selection), then yes I suppose he could be. But it hasn't happened yet.

[Shaughno]

right. you're so chill they call you Mr.Freeze.

Damn right they do.


Ruiz is dirtier than Guevara (how many times has he kicked someone in the face? - but Amado takes the gold medal for diving.

Depends on your definition of dirty I guess. Both are dirty players in my mind. Elbowing multiple opponants in the face I consider dirty as well. ;)

Honestly though, everyone gets so worked up over every fucking little detail. No wonder the knowledgable posters have sunk into the 'creeper' status.

If he happens to be 'injured' on Saturday, I will gladly call for him to be gone like everyone else. Until then, it makes perfect sense to rehab a knee injury faster on a softer grass surface than one as hard on the joints as fieldturf is.

[FluSH]

More dirty than my younger brother who has decided to let his hair self-clean???

Dirtier than Sean Avery, Bruce Bowen, and that New Leaf player combined!!

THANK GOD for this

[Parkdale]

Until then, it makes perfect sense to rehab a knee injury faster on a softer grass surface than one as hard on the joints as fieldturf is.

he can rehab the knee in a swimming pool for all I care. Do some zero-impact aquafit exercises or something. Really, this whole argument could be funneled back into the TFC needs a natural practice facility stance.

[canadian_bhoy]

^^ Man Parky - you guys get into some of the biggest nuance bitchfest arguments.

If there is a hair to be split on this board - guarenteed you'll find people to split it and others to argue over the other half of that hair.

I think everyone can agree on the fact that Ruiz is a D-bag. Faking his injury or not, this guy is not destined to have a long term career with TFC. If he scores goals for us, great, but he's certainly not the piece of the puzzle that will take us to a championship.

[arsenal]

http://rojomania.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=2217197:BlogPost:6809
http://www.mls-rumors.net/2008/10/incomingoutgoing-carlos-pescadito-ruiz.html

no surprise if this does come to fruition

Wow ... can't believe I was subjected to an NDP ad on MLSrumors

[Cambridge_Red]

Was this part of the 5 year plan? :D

[arsenal]

Was this part of the 5 year plan? :D

If Mo can turn around and deal Ruiz for $ or real draft pick then that is a miracle. He dealt 2 supplemental draft picks that he would have walked away from the draft without using for the little Fish.

[SLBuu]

that is a horrible pic of him that the conjured up........ hideous

[Shaughno]

If Mo can turn around and deal Ruiz for $ or real draft pick then that is a miracle. He dealt 2 supplemental draft picks that he would have walked away from the draft without using for the little Fish.


Shh... don't use logic, it confuses them.

[arsenal]

Shh... don't use logic, it confuses them.

Sorry ... my bad. Forgot where I was posting. ;)

[Shaughno]

and on that bombshell, let the slagging continue.

[Roogsy]

"What ifs" are projections, not reality. They can also work the other way around where you get nothing. The real value of the trade won't be known for some time but as a player he's a bust, there is no doubt about that.

[Shaughno]

and considering we literally gave up nothing for him, I fail to see a reason to get worked up about.

[Roogsy]

Ah yes...I forgot we have the perennial apologist here.

What there is to get upset about is regardless of what we did or did not give up to get him, he now plays for TFC and he has failed to show the proper respect and effort to a team and it's fans who are technically paying his salary. He has been here over a month and done nothing for the team but manages to play a full 90 for his national squad. If that doesn't bother you, that's fine. It bothers most of us.

And this has not cost us "nothing" for those of you running around saying it has.

[brad]

If Mo can turn around and deal Ruiz for $ or real draft pick then that is a miracle. He dealt 2 supplemental draft picks that he would have walked away from the draft without using for the little Fish.

Even if we get nothing for him, we traded two useless draft picks away for a player that might have helped us out. It was a risk, but a calculated one as we were not going to get anything of value out of those two supplemental picks.

[canadian_bhoy]

I'm confused - What happened to all the "honour of playing for the TFC jersey" and all that stuff?

Now as long as its a good bit of Biz for Mo(e) its somehow ok that this D-bag plays for our club?

I'm not burning my ST's over this guy or anything, but I sure as hell wouldn't shed any tears if he was dumped from the squad.

[Keyman]

I bring up the question of why he was brought here in the first place?
Why not?
We were extremely thin up front. Mo hardly had to give up anything in order to obtain him, and why wouldn't you take a risk on a player that was previously one of the leagues most prolific scorers? It's very easy in thie league to dump salary, so it's basically a no risk situation. If Ruiz magically becomes the scorer he was, then we celebrate, if he doesn't, we easliy dump him and look for a better solution in the off-season.

[Roogsy]

I'm confused - What happened to all the "honour of playing for the TFC jersey" and all that stuff?

Now as long as its a good bit of Biz for Mo(e) its somehow ok that this D-bag plays for our club?

I'm not burning my ST's over this guy or anything, but I sure as hell wouldn't shed any tears if he was dumped from the squad.

^Word...

[Cambridge_Red]

If Mo can turn around and deal Ruiz for $ or real draft pick then that is a miracle. He dealt 2 supplemental draft picks that he would have walked away from the draft without using for the little Fish.

Good call dude I had forgotten they were supplemental picks. Anyways I question some moves trader Mo has made for instance look what we ended up with after trading away Serioux for O'Brien.... If first round picks like JJ are anything to go by we got shafted.

[Shaughno]

Ah yes I forgot, everyone is supposed to be overly negative about anything and everything that happens to this club.

Enjoy the bitchfests mah fuckahs.

[brad]

What there is to get upset about is regardless of what we did or did not give up to get him, he now plays for TFC and he has failed to show the proper respect and effort to a team and it's fans who are technically paying his salary. He has been here over a month and done nothing for the team but manages to play a full 90 for his national squad. If that doesn't bother you, that's fine. It bothers most of us..

Honestly, I blame the stupid MLS system for this more than I blame Ruiz. He didn't want to come here in the first place, but he didn't have a choice in the matter.

[arsenal]

Ah yes...I forgot we have the perennial apologist here.

And this has not cost us "nothing" for those of you running around saying it has.

Please enlighten us all on what it has cost.

2 supplemental draft picks? Worthless.
Salary Cap space? Paid for by MLS.
Roster spot? Window had already closed so only would have been a player within MLS who would have been traded for.

[Roogsy]

How about being objective about what is wrong and being able to discuss it without seeing it through rose-coloured glasses and constantly referring to "what ifs" to provide the foundation of arguments?

[Roogsy]

Honestly, I blame the stupid MLS system for this more than I blame Ruiz. He didn't want to come here in the first place, but he didn't have a choice in the matter.

Agreed.

But professionalism dictates that once here, he would give his all. Anyone convinced he has?

[Shaughno]

I'm confused - What happened to all the "honour of playing for the TFC jersey" and all that stuff?

Now as long as its a good bit of Biz for Mo(e) its somehow ok that this D-bag plays for our club?

I'm not burning my ST's over this guy or anything, but I sure as hell wouldn't shed any tears if he was dumped from the squad.


Are you telling me Ruiz is the only player on the team not playing his heart out?

I'm not saying I want the guy here, he hasn't improved us, but we spent two supplementary draft picks, that we literally tossed aside last year, for a guy who has proven when he's on, he's fucking on. It was a risk, but barely since we needed someone up front and we basically got him for *almost* nothing.

[Roogsy]

Please enlighten us all on what it has cost.

2 supplemental draft picks? Worthless.
Salary Cap space? Paid for by MLS.
Roster spot? Window had already closed so only would have been a player within MLS who would have been traded for.

By your rationale then most players "cost us" nothing. :rolleyes:

And it should it matter to a player whether he cost the team lots or little? Shouldn't there be an element of pride and respecting the team and the fans? I must be crazy...

[Cambridge_Red]

Why not?
We were extremely thin up front. Mo hardly had to give up anything in order to obtain him, and why wouldn't you take a risk on a player that was previously one of the leagues most prolific scorers? It's very easy in thie league to dump salary, so it's basically a no risk situation. If Ruiz magically becomes the scorer he was, then we celebrate, if he doesn't, we easliy dump him and look for a better solution in the off-season.

I'm unhappy with these mid season patch jobs we keep getting. There's no direction or foundation being built.

[Shaughno]

By your rationale then most players "cost us" nothing. :rolleyes:

Have we actually spent money to acquire Ruiz? Have we lost players to acquire him?

Please, enlighten me on how we've 'spent' money since according to you this 'has not cost us nothing'.

[The Kingpin]

I'm confused - What happened to all the "honour of playing for the TFC jersey" and all that stuff?

Now as long as its a good bit of Biz for Mo(e) its somehow ok that this D-bag plays for our club?

I'm not burning my ST's over this guy or anything, but I sure as hell wouldn't shed any tears if he was dumped from the squad.

Is this the logic I'm supposed to ignore? :noidea:

This is why I can't stand Guevara... He's a creepy diver.

[Roogsy]

Have we actually spent money to acquire Ruiz? Have we lost players to acquire him?

Please, enlighten me on how we've 'spent' money since according to you this 'has not cost us nothing'.

So he came free did he? I feel better informed.

[Shaughno]

I'm unhappy with these mid season patch jobs we keep getting. There's no direction or foundation being built.


We're a second year team, trying to find out feet. Players aren't working out as planned, it happens. We also haven't had a single full pre-season with our coach and players to build any foundations on either.

[The Kingpin]

Do players still get paid a salary? Just asking.

[Shaughno]

So he came free did he? I feel better informed.


Please, tell me where we've spent something other than useless supplementary draft picks to acquire Ruiz. Honestly, I've never seen anything that signifies differently.

[brad]

So he came free did he? I feel better informed.


You're really picking at straws here. Let's not get lost in petty semantics.

Cost is relative - we traded two supplemental draft picks. What would we have gotten for them?

[arsenal]

How about being objective about what is wrong and being able to discuss it without seeing it through rose-coloured glasses and constantly referring to "what ifs" to provide the foundation of arguments?

How about being objective about what the move was. It was a gamble to see if a guy could somehow find his form and help the team make a push for the playoffs. The team had excess salary cap space so they could afford to bring him in and see if it worked or not. It did not .... but all it cost us was 2 meaningless picks that would not have been used. Now there is the possibility that those 2 meaningless picks will be turned into tangible assets.

At no point did anyone say that Ruiz was going to be the face of the franchise and lead it for the next 4 years. He was a gamble .... a rent a player with virtually no downside (cost us nothing to acquire and no long term contract to burden us in the future if he did not turn out).

[Shaughno]

Do players still get paid a salary? Just asking.


Like, if they're injured... if they are dropped...? You gotta have more in that question :lol:

[Cambridge_Red]

Ah yes I forgot, everyone is supposed to be overly negative about anything and everything that happens to this club.

Enjoy the bitchfests mah fuckahs.

It's not being negative it's questioning rationale. In this case yes it was low risk buy bringing him... but where do we go from here another misfit or grab our balls and bring in quality.

[Keyman]

I'm unhappy with these mid season patch jobs we keep getting. There's no direction or foundation being built.
Fair enough, I agree with you on that. But I just see Ruiz, as much as I despise him, as a risk worth taking. At the time we traded for him, we were desperate. Bringing in one more player isn't going to kill the team, he really could only help us. It was risk on a short term fix, that's all.

[Cambridge_Red]

We're a second year team, trying to find out feet. Players aren't working out as planned, it happens. We also haven't had a single full pre-season with our coach and players to build any foundations on either.


Just hoping this trend comes to an end my brother, or next year will be very similar.

[Shaughno]

It's not being negative it's questioning rationale. In this case yes it was low risk buy bringing him... but where do we go from here another misfit or grab our balls and bring in quality.


In the off season, yes I agree. At a point in the season when we were hurting and needed firepower, it was a gamble (barely) that we had to take.

As for the negative, I was aiming that at the general TFC section. ;)

[Roogsy]

Please, tell me where we've spent something other than useless supplementary draft picks to acquire Ruiz. Honestly, I've never seen anything that signifies differently.

Details of the trade were not released but I am guessing we picked up part of his salary, otherwise, this trade makes no sense for LA.

Salary + Draft picks (however you view their value) = Price we paid therefore, NOT FREE, the opposite of "nothing"

Whether it was an expensive price or not...we paid it. Most would argue this was a cheap gamble. But that tells you everything, the fact that it was cheap means we paid SOMETHING hence he OWES us an effort.

His salary (which is in the top tier of the league) has not decreased, why should he give any less for the team that currently owns his rights?

I can't believe I actually have to present a case for why a player owes an effort to the team he plays for. Just because Mo didn't have to give up the farm for the guy. Wow... :rolleyes:

[The Kingpin]

Plus, I think the team sold its soul... I'm saddened by this.

[Shaughno]

Fair enough, I agree with you on that. But I just see Ruiz, as much as I despise him, as a risk worth taking. At the time we traded for him, we were desperate. Bringing in one more player isn't going to kill the team, he really could only help us. It was risk on a short term fix, that's all.

Exactly, but people fail to take the circumstances in how he arrived into the equation.


Just hoping this trend comes to an end my brother, or next year will be very similar.

Dude, me too. I said it last year when Carver was hired, we need the team to go through a proper off season without constantly trialling players and trying to sign and drop players like they are going out of style. Flipping players on a regular basis won't help our squad in the long run, but at a point in the season when you're basically screwed, sometimes you have to make that hail mary pass... especially if you're only on 3rd down. :lol:

[Roogsy]

Dude, me too. I said it last year when Carver was hired, we need the team to go through a proper off season without constantly trialling players and trying to sign and drop players like they are going out of style. Flipping players on a regular basis won't help our squad in the long run, but at a point in the season when you're basically screwed, sometimes you have to make that hail mary pass... especially if you're only on 3rd down. :lol:

:eek:

The BULK of the arguments between you and me this offseason was your defending Mo's "in and out" policy with players whereas I was clamouring for early siginings and stability in the offseason to help the team gel. You kept quoting the whole "5 year" thing. This quote here absolutely floors me as it is the exact opposite of what you were arguing at the beginning of the year.

[Shaughno]

Details of the trade were not released but I am guessing we picked up part of his salary, otherwise, this trade makes no sense for LA.

Salary + Draft picks (however you view their value) = Price we paid therefore, NOT FREE, the opposite of "nothing"

Whether it was an expensive price or not...we paid it. Most would argue this was a cheap gamble. But that tells you everything, the fact that it was cheap means we paid SOMETHING hence he OWES us an effort.

His salary (which is in the top tier of the league) has not decreased, why should he give any less for the team that currently owns his rights?

I can't believe I actually have to present a case for why a player owes an effort to the team he plays for. Just because Mo didn't have to give up the farm for the guy. Wow... :rolleyes:

FUCKING SEMANTICS. Every time I question you, every fucking time. Have you been reading my posts? Can you not see that I said multiple times what we gave up for him? In fact, you'll find I said we gave up 'useless supplementary' draft picks for him. Which, they are because Mo didn't use them last year, when the NCAA talent pool was supposedly much larger than this years.

Where, find a single post I made, where I said that he didn't owe his effort to the team.


Plus, I think the team sold its soul... I'm saddened by this.

I agree.

[Cambridge_Red]

Fair enough, I agree with you on that. But I just see Ruiz, as much as I despise him, as a risk worth taking. At the time we traded for him, we were desperate. Bringing in one more player isn't going to kill the team, he really could only help us. It was risk on a short term fix, that's all.

I agree, it's just his (Mo) policy so far has worried me ;)

[Shaughno]

:eek:

The BULK of the arguments between you and me this offseason was your defending Mo's "in and out" policy with players whereas I was clamouring for early siginings and stability in the offseason to help the team gel. You kept quoting the whole "5 year" thing. This quote here absolutely floors me as it is the exact opposite of what you were arguing at the beginning of the year.


Selective reading by chance? I still stand by the 5 year plan if that's what Mo has. It looks to be by the amount of decent quality youth players, does it not?

Last year, we had played one shit season with little to no time to scout players. Yes, I stand by what I said. Last year was a different situation from this off season. This year we have had more time to acquire new contacts and scouts, and follow up on players we may have been in contact with last year. I was arguing at the begining of the year that Carver needed time to get things rolling so the team could 'gel' together, but with no players and little to no time how do you accomplish that? Even when we started the season well, there was still flip flopping going on with the team.

[Lucky Strike]

At the risk of adding more tension here, I agree with Roogsy that we paid "something" no matter how little it was valued in terms of salary and supplemental draft picks. No one can deny that. But perhaps what was meant by "it cost us nothing" was that by picking up Ruiz, it didn't mean it restricted us from getting a different player should we have chosen to do so (ie. ruiz wasn't the last roster spot available or brought our salaries up to the cap, etc.) Just throwing it out there...

[Keyman]

I agree, it's just his (Mo) policy so far has worried me ;)
And you have every right to question his policy so far, it hasn't exactly been very successful. However, I still maintain quite a bit of confidence in Mo, and I will continue to. I know not everyone agrees with me on this, but that's a whole different argument. I give him one more season, and if we get grass, watch how many more quality players Mo will sign. I think 2009 will be an extremely good season for TFC.

[Shaughno]

Details of the trade were not released but I am guessing we picked up part of his salary, otherwise, this trade makes no sense for LA.

Salary + Draft picks (however you view their value) = Price we paid therefore, NOT FREE, the opposite of "nothing"

Whether it was an expensive price or not...we paid it. Most would argue this was a cheap gamble. But that tells you everything, the fact that it was cheap means we paid SOMETHING hence he OWES us an effort.

His salary (which is in the top tier of the league) has not decreased, why should he give any less for the team that currently owns his rights?

I can't believe I actually have to present a case for why a player owes an effort to the team he plays for. Just because Mo didn't have to give up the farm for the guy. Wow... :rolleyes:


and by the way, I'm guessing you 'failed' to read other's posts just so you could spend time dissecting everything I say?


How about being objective about what the move was. It was a gamble to see if a guy could somehow find his form and help the team make a push for the playoffs. The team had excess salary cap space so they could afford to bring him in and see if it worked or not. It did not .... but all it cost us was 2 meaningless picks that would not have been used. Now there is the possibility that those 2 meaningless picks will be turned into tangible assets.

At no point did anyone say that Ruiz was going to be the face of the franchise and lead it for the next 4 years. He was a gamble .... a rent a player with virtually no downside (cost us nothing to acquire and no long term contract to burden us in the future if he did not turn out).

[Roogsy]

and considering we literally gave up nothing for him, I fail to see a reason to get worked up about.

^^^

Then you simply contradict yourself...

My reasoning.

We gave up:

Roster spot...which regardless of whether we would have been able to use it, it was used.
Draft pics...which regardless if you view them of little value, do hold SOME instrinsic value to the team, even if it's a bag of balls. (Which would have been of more use to us than Ruiz)
Salary...we likely picked up a portion of his salary, however small.

And because of that, I feel we deserved better. What your argument against that is...I simply don't know. It seems to be..."we didn't give up much so I don't expect much". If that is not it...feel free to explain yourself. I have presented my side, there isn't much more to say.

[Shaughno]

^^^

Then you simply contradict yourself...

My reasoning.

We gave up:

Roster spot...which regardless of whether we would have been able to use it, it was used.
Draft pics...which regardless if you view them of little value, do hold SOME instrinsic value to the team, even if it's a bag of balls.
Salary...we likely picked up a portion of his salary, however small.

And because of that, I feel we deserved better. What your argument against that is...I simply don't know. It seems to be..."we didn't give up much so I don't expect much". If that is not it...feel free to explain yourself. I have presented my side, there isn't much more to say.

Sorry mister sementics, I stand by that post actually. Literally, two supplementary draft picks that were not used last year, and won't be used again this year. That my friend, is about as free as you can get in the MLS.

Again, failing to read other people's posts at the same time. Stop trolling my posts and pay attention to what's going on around you.

[Parkdale]

Even when we started the season well, there was still flip flopping going on with the team.

that flipping and flopping lasted way too long. I've still got the player sheet for the Charleston Challenge last year. Want to guess how many of the people on it are still on the team?

I think watching Mo in the off seasons will be the biggest indicator as to if his plan is working. Just like in poker, if you draw all the cards you can, you're playing on raw luck, not talent. Sure we'll loose at least one key player to the expansion, but I really hope we can bring at least half the team back next year.

[Shaughno]

that flipping and flopping lasted way too long. I've still got the player sheet for the Charleston Challenge last year. Want to guess how many of the people on it are still on the team?

I think watching Mo in the off seasons will be the biggest indicator as to if his plan is working. Just like in poker, if you draw all the cards you can, you're playing on raw luck, not talent. Sure we'll loose at least one key player to the expansion, but I really hope we can bring at least half the team back next year.

I agree 100%.

[Parkdale]

I agree 100%.

someone pinch me. I must be sleeping.

:cool:

[Roogsy]

Again, failing to read other people's posts at the same time. Stop trolling my posts and pay attention to what's going on around you.

Funny....it was my answer to Arsenal's question...not yours...that started this little round. You decided to jump in with your own 2 cents. Unrequested. So who is trolling who's posts? You always do that. You accuse me of harassing you when you are the one running around putting your two cents in everywhere. Same old same old.

[Lucky Strike]

Funny....it was my answer to Arsenal's question...not yours...that started this little round. So who is trolling who's posts?

Oi... alright everyone, simmer down. :(

[Parkdale]

Funny....it was my answer to Arsenal's question...not yours...that started this little round. So who is trolling who's posts?


at this point, the thread is getting derailed by the back and forth.

can we focus on Ruiz, the rumour and the aftermath (which I doubt they're be any)

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

Ruiz leaving? well he hasn't burned the field while hes been here, but would like to see him play with TFC for another season...If we get the DP that has been promised
that might help up front if thats where the dp position would go.

[Keyman]

Roogsy, did Jay steal the girl you liked in grade 11 or something, or vice versa? :D

Why are you two always arguing? Can't we all just get along!

[Shaughno]

Funny....it was my answer to Arsenal's question...not yours...that started this little round. You decided to jump in with your own 2 cents. Unrequested. So who is trolling who's posts? You always do that. You accuse me of harassing you when you are the one running around putting your two cents in everywhere. Same old same old.


Pardon? Check the first page, I was responding to people long before you started nit picking my posts.

Fuck off,
Shaughno

[joel]

I think it's a little silly to expect guys brought in mid-season, or those that have no connections to toronto, or coming to a city with no history (albeit a good start) to suddenly 'live and die by the shirt'. Especially a guy who likely knows full well he won't be here next year.

For what it cost us, I wouldn't expect that kind of commitment out of him, and it doesn't do anybody any good to bitch and moan about it, other than give you guys something to keep yourselves busy with.

If he isn't performing, he isn't in the lineup, if he is, good. I don't need to have a squad of 18 players that I would want to put their name on the back of my shirt, it's just not possible that you are going to get a full squad of character guys, so why waste your energy on it?

[Roogsy]

Keyman...let's just leave it and get back to getting something out of Ruiz going to Columbus.

[FluSH]

Please, tell me where we've spent something other than useless supplementary draft picks to acquire Ruiz. Honestly, I've never seen anything that signifies differently.

Some things are intangible... like cancer.

Ruiz = Cancer

Done

I win.

[Roogsy]

The interesting thing about this whole thing is that I was not aware that Schelotto was planning on retiring after this season. Considering the impact he has had in Columbus, that is a huge loss for them, an impact Ruiz DEFINITELY won't have for that team. If Columbus don't win the cup this year...they definitely won't next year.

It's too bad for the MLS, because despite hating Schelotto and his diving ways...the man is probably one the best players in the MLS.

[Shaughno]

I think it's a little silly to expect guys brought in mid-season, or those that have no connections to toronto, or coming to a city with no history (albeit a good start) to suddenly 'live and die by the shirt'. Especially a guy who likely knows full well he won't be here next year.

For what it cost us, I wouldn't expect that kind of commitment out of him, and it doesn't do anybody any good to bitch and moan about it, other than give you guys something to keep yourselves busy with.

If he isn't performing, he isn't in the lineup, if he is, good. I don't need to have a squad of 18 players that I would want to put their name on the back of my shirt, it's just not possible that you are going to get a full squad of character guys, so why waste your energy on it?

Another great post, wasted on a shit thread. :lol:

[FluSH]

I think it's a little silly to expect guys brought in mid-season, or those that have no connections to toronto, or coming to a city with no history (albeit a good start) to suddenly 'live and die by the shirt'. Especially a guy who likely knows full well he won't be here next year.

For what it cost us, I wouldn't expect that kind of commitment out of him, and it doesn't do anybody any good to bitch and moan about it, other than give you guys something to keep yourselves busy with.

If he isn't performing, he isn't in the lineup, if he is, good. I don't need to have a squad of 18 players that I would want to put their name on the back of my shirt, it's just not possible that you are going to get a full squad of character guys, so why waste your energy on it?

Well then Chad Barrett should be Player of the Year... for us. :D

[Keyman]

Keyman...let's just leave it and get back to getting something out of Ruiz going to Columbus.
I agree:)

[Shakes McQueen]

Have we actually spent money to acquire Ruiz? Have we lost players to acquire him?

Please, enlighten me on how we've 'spent' money since according to you this 'has not cost us nothing'.

I believe I read on SBI that we picked up the proportional amount of his salary, relative to the number of games we had left, which worked out to somewhere around $100,000 - $120,000. Which wasn't a big deal for us, since we had tons of cap space, his contract was up this season, and we weren't going to be able to make any more moves either way,

So essentially we got him for the aforementioned supplemental draft picks, and the balance of his salary for the remainder of the season.

LA got rid of him to recoup enough cap space to sign Eddie Lewis, so clearly they aren't still paying 100% of Ruiz's salary.

Ipso facto, we did not get him for free. Even if you don't consider the draft picks to be a tangible loss.

I don't really care about this argument, just presenting what I recall to be the facts.

- Scott

[Roogsy]

Oh it's on again! :D

Just kidding...I am too tired... ;)

[Shakes McQueen]

I'm personally not remotely interested in arguing this stuff.

I thought Mo was right to take a chance on Ruiz. Our squad was still floundering on offense at the time, and Ruiz could have potentially re-ignited the offense. Yes there was a risk that he would turn out... well.. basically how he has turned out. But he didn't cost us anything that would in any way affect us for next season, since he didn't bring a contract for next season with him. We basically rented the guy for three months.

Worst case scenario, we ended up where we started before he came, out some cash (which we had to spend), and not much else.

HOWEVER, with that in mind, I'm also somewhat incensed at the apparent lack of commitment to the club by him. We are paying his bills now, and my guess is we have also been providing his medical attention over the last several weeks.

Bringing him in was a decent attempt to salvage this season at the time. I agree with Shaughno that I want stability in our roster going forward, however. No more revolving door all year - bring in who you need during the winter, and let the squad gel as a group.

With some good fortune (fewer missed games due to call-ups, and fewer key injuries), we will be a much better side next season. And Ruiz will be playing in Columbus.

- Scott

[Roogsy]

With no Schelotto. :hurray:

Personally, I don't think Mo could have passed on this gamble. At the time, I agreed with the move, and I still think it could have yielded dividends had LA not sent us damaged goods. But with Ruiz's character the way it is, once he was hurt...it was game over for us unfortunately and we will never know what a contributing Ruiz will look like. Oh well...on to next year where we will hopefully get a DP who will have an effect like Blanco or Schelotto.

[ensco]

Please enlighten us all on what it has cost.

2 supplemental draft picks? Worthless.
Salary Cap space? Paid for by MLS.
Roster spot? Window had already closed so only would have been a player within MLS who would have been traded for.

You're being obtuse.

1) Robert - we released him to make cap space for Ruiz. It's possible that he could have turned it around if he'd stayed.
2) Opportunity cost (ie the player that we didn't bring in when we picked up Ruiz)

[rocktml]

oh well fuck it, Ruiz is shite, I'd rather have Cunny then this fatty, and thats saying something.

[Dirk Diggler]

Seriously .... everyone who was willing to think rationally could see that acquiring Ruiz was a bad idea. It was never a good gamble ... a good gamble would be like acquiring someone like Chad Barret ... he may not be extremely talented but you know he can do better since he atleast tries his hardest without the theatrics. If this rumour comes to fruition it would just confirm how clueless Mo is in terms of what he wants his roster to look like. There is no way he went into the season with a proper blueprint. I've never seen a GM make so many knee-jerk moves.

[joel]

I believe I read on SBI that we picked up the proportional amount of his salary, relative to the number of games we had left, which worked out to somewhere around $100,000 - $120,000. Which wasn't a big deal for us, since we had tons of cap space, his contract was up this season, and we weren't going to be able to make any more moves either way,

So essentially we got him for the aforementioned supplemental draft picks, and the balance of his salary for the remainder of the season.

LA got rid of him to recoup enough cap space to sign Eddie Lewis, so clearly they aren't still paying 100% of Ruiz's salary.

Ipso facto, we did not get him for free. Even if you don't consider the draft picks to be a tangible loss.

I don't really care about this argument, just presenting what I recall to be the facts.

- Scott

The teams don't actually 'pay' the salary, though. On SBI they would be referring to the proportional amount of the cap that is charged to TFC..the way I understand it, but I could be wrong.

In that case it doesn't matter, you're always looking to max out your cap so you get the most for your 30% of gate you give to the MLS.

[Marco2K]

Seriously .... everyone who was willing to think rationally could see that acquiring Ruiz was a bad idea. It was never a good gamble ... a good gamble would be like acquiring someone like Chad Barret ... he may not be extremely talented but you know he can do better since he atleast tries his hardest without the theatrics. If this rumour comes to fruition it would just confirm how clueless Mo is in terms of what he wants his roster to look like. There is no way he went into the season with a proper blueprint. I've never seen a GM make so many knee-jerk moves.


r u kidding?

Mo took a chance and it did not work out.

Someone above said they would rather have cunningham then ruiz. you kidding me.

Im to tired to argue any more but come on.

[Shakes McQueen]

The teams don't actually 'pay' the salary, though. On SBI they would be referring to the proportional amount of the cap that is charged to TFC..the way I understand it, but I could be wrong.

In that case it doesn't matter, you're always looking to max out your cap so you get the most for your 30% of gate you give to the MLS.

Do you actually pay the cap max every year, or do you just pay the amount you're using?

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

Seriously .... everyone who was willing to think rationally could see that acquiring Ruiz was a bad idea. It was never a good gamble ... a good gamble would be like acquiring someone like Chad Barret ... he may not be extremely talented but you know he can do better since he atleast tries his hardest without the theatrics. If this rumour comes to fruition it would just confirm how clueless Mo is in terms of what he wants his roster to look like. There is no way he went into the season with a proper blueprint. I've never seen a GM make so many knee-jerk moves.

Mo's blueprint for this team, by his own admission, is operating on a five year timeline.

And so far, his knee jerk moves this season have brought us some of our best or most promising players - Johann Smith, Chad Barrett, Rohan Ricketts, Amado Guevara. Even Laurent Robert had the potential to be another great contributor - he just got lazy.

Ruiz could have potentially thrived on the fresh start here in TO, and lord knows he used to put up impressive numbers.

I still think it was a good risk to take, considering the dire straits our team was in at the time. Had the team been humming along, I don't think he would have brought Ruiz in.

- Scott

[Lucky Strike]

Mo's blueprint for this team, by his own admission, is operating on a five year timeline.

And so far, his knee jerk moves this season have brought us some of our best or most promising players - Johann Smith, Chad Barrett, Rohan Ricketts, Amado Guevara. Even Laurent Robert had the potential to be another great contributor - he just got lazy.

Ruiz could have potentially thrived on the fresh start here in TO, and lord knows he used to put up impressive numbers.

I still think it was a good risk to take, considering the dire straits our team was in at the time. Had the team been humming along, I don't think he would have brought Ruiz in.

- Scott

Interesting point, but can we really call the Barrett deal knee-jerk? It dragged on for a little while. And Guevara was a guy Mo had his eye on since year 1, actually traded for him but he wouldn't report. The others though, I'd have to agree.

[Shakes McQueen]

Interesting point, but can we really call the Barrett deal knee-jerk? It dragged on for a little while. And Guevara was a guy Mo had his eye on since year 1, actually traded for him but he wouldn't report. The others though, I'd have to agree.

I was using "knee jerk" sarcastically, as that phrase is usually used with a negative connotation - like how Dirk employed it.

My point was that Mo has made some great moves this season, that will set us up nicely for the future.

- Scott

[Torcida]

It's rumour!

[joel]

Do you actually pay the cap max every year, or do you just pay the amount you're using?

- Scott

No, I mean like if you are a player for TFC, and you get your paycheque, its from MLS, not TFC.

The salary cap is a theoretical number for a team, they don't actually pay out the money. So, you wouldn't save money as a team only using 70% of your cap, as it comes out of the % of gate receipts you surrender the league.

So it's not a waste of money to use all your salary cap. Unless I've gone crazy that's the way the league works, as they also negotiate contracts directly with the players. None of the teams own the players, or negotiate, so it is natural that they also do not pay them.

[Shakes McQueen]

No, I mean like if you are a player for TFC, and you get your paycheque, its from MLS, not TFC.

The salary cap is a theoretical number for a team, they don't actually pay out the money. So, you wouldn't save money as a team only using 70% of your cap, as it comes out of the % of gate receipts you surrender the league.

So it's not a waste of money to use all your salary cap. Unless I've gone crazy that's the way the league works, as they also negotiate contracts directly with the players. None of the teams own the players, or negotiate, so it is natural that they also do not pay them.

I understand that MLS owns the players, negotiates with the players, etc. My question was about how the teams pay MLS.

So teams actually surrender gate receipts to the league directly? And it isn't a fixed number, it's a percentage of gate receipts?

Yeesh, my head is about to explode. No more single entity please.

- Scott

[Lucky Strike]

I was using "knee jerk" sarcastically, as that phrase is usually used with a negative connotation - like how Dirk employed it.

My point was that Mo has made some great moves this season, that will set us up nicely for the future.

- Scott

Ah...

[Axeman]

I was using "knee jerk" sarcastically, as that phrase is usually used with a negative connotation - like how Dirk employed it.

My point was that Mo has made some great moves this season, that will set us up nicely for the future.

- Scott
Agreed Mo has made some very good moves this year and throughout his tenure setting us up very well for next year. Aquiring a guy(Ruiz) with the heart the size of the Grinch's doesn't inspire me but we needed a striker badly. Not a bad gamble for my money.
I think he's got us(Depending on if Dunivant is ready for next season) a striker and a DC or two away from being very good next year, providing one of those positions are filled with a quality DP.

[joel]

I understand that MLS owns the players, negotiates with the players, etc. My question was about how the teams pay MLS.

So teams actually surrender gate receipts to the league directly? And it isn't a fixed number, it's a percentage of gate receipts?

Yeesh, my head is about to explode. No more single entity please.

- Scott

I thought it was a % of gate. And yes, they actually pay it to MLS.

this paper someone wrote, captures it http://cda.morris.umn.edu/~kildegac/CV/Papers/JSSI.pdf




From an industrial organization perspective, the most important aspect of the new league structure is the "single-entity" concept. While individual teams have local "owneroperators," each of these is really an investor who buys into the single-entity league.


The league, in turn, operates as a monopsonist in the labor market (disregarding international competition) and formally holds all player contracts. A revenue-sharing scheme allows individual owner-operators to keep just 49% of the "gate" (including ticket revenues, parking, and other concessions), while the rest passes on to the league.

In addition to paying player salaries and league overhead, these shared revenues fund a national advertising campaign. Local promotions--from goodwill appearances in youth camps to ads in local newspapers--are the responsibility of the individual clubs.




Although I think the % of gate has changed since

[Oldtimer]

So teams actually surrender gate receipts to the league directly? And it isn't a fixed number, it's a percentage of gate receipts?


- Scott

Correct. For example, KC (with half as many attendees) might pay half of what TFC does, but gets the same amount of money for players. That is parity.

[Oldtimer]

I thought it was a % of gate. And yes, they actually pay it to MLS.

this paper someone wrote, captures it http://cda.morris.umn.edu/~kildegac/CV/Papers/JSSI.pdf (http://cda.morris.umn.edu/%7Ekildegac/CV/Papers/JSSI.pdf)





Although I think the % of gate has changed since


Correct. It is now 30%. 49% was the original amount from 1996-2002.

[J .]

trade ruiz to RSL for Will Johnson....

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Dont think RSL who didnt want Cunny, who has a record of being shit with coaches, would want Ruiz, who has a record of being shit with coaches but for twice the amount

[RPB73]

We're a second year team, trying to find out feet. Players aren't working out as planned, it happens. We also haven't had a single full pre-season with our coach and players to build any foundations on either.

Wow! Second year team, and we haven't had a full pre-season with our coaches and players. That is so comforting, that it frightens me.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

ideally it wont be an issue this season coming up (at least we will have he majority of our team?, really we dont need to chop too many players just a few and add a few more in their place). Do hope Carver stays...