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View Full Version : TFC-TV - John Carver: "I think we've been robbed!"



Blizzard
10-13-2008, 03:59 PM
That is one brief quote from JC's post match presser that is scheduled to go up on TFC-TV tomorrow morning (sometime after 9am apparently).

http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp (http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp)

I can't wait! http://209.85.62.26/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif

B

Daveisonfire
10-13-2008, 04:03 PM
I'm willing to bet we won't see a "Sights & Sounds" post-game segment

Blizzard
10-13-2008, 04:37 PM
I'm willing to bet we won't see a "Sights & Sounds" post-game segment

LOL. It would be one long beeeeeeep!

SLBuu
10-13-2008, 05:24 PM
i've been waiting for this all weekend!!

Shakes McQueen
10-13-2008, 06:27 PM
i've been waiting for this all weekend!!

Me too. I've been checking like three times a day for new video, just to see Carver freak out about the penalty call. :D

- Scott

shaggingscot
10-13-2008, 06:29 PM
I love his passion but he'd be wrong in this case. It was clearly a foul.

Roogsy
10-13-2008, 06:35 PM
^ I do not agree...

shaggingscot
10-13-2008, 06:39 PM
^ I do not agree...

Fair enough but neither yours nor my opinion matters in the end as we weren't the ref.

Roogsy
10-13-2008, 06:45 PM
An all too common theme this season.

shaggingscot
10-13-2008, 06:47 PM
An all too common theme this season.

I've watched this league from the start and the refs are far better now than they used to be believe it or not.

Roogsy
10-13-2008, 06:49 PM
I believe you.

They're still garbage though.

Carts
10-13-2008, 06:49 PM
I love his passion but he'd be wrong in this case. It was clearly a foul.

It was a foul, fair enough, but not then. Because the problem is the fact that it was the 10th, 11th, 12th time in the game it happened...

Why pick the 90th minute to call that - when you didn't hold that standard all game...?

Nothing angers coaches, players, and fans more than inconsistency... If he had called that standard all game - then its a foul. If he looks the other way all game, then its not a foul...

Just be consistent... That's all...
Carts...

Roogsy
10-13-2008, 06:51 PM
AND...he's not supposed to allow a free kick with all that mugging in the box from both sides. It avoids this exact same problem.

AND the foul he called was a handball. He didn't even SEE James feeling up the Dallas player.

There was just so much wrong with that call that ref needs to go back to handling high school games.

CretanBull
10-13-2008, 06:52 PM
It was clearly a foul.

Only if James' hand is on the end of Serioux's arm...the call was hand ball, and Serioux was the only one who touched the ball with his hand.

shaggingscot
10-13-2008, 07:00 PM
I purposely didn't go into the other thread but I'll ask this did it state on his game report that he called handball or are we basing that on something else.

I'm not defending him in any way but to me it looked a clear foul because of the shirt pulling.

Carts point has some validity about not calling it in the 90th but does that mean you can get away with murder in injury time because the refs shouldn't call it?

Truth be told we don't deserve to be in the playoffs because of the spell we had where we couldn't do anything right home or away. I'm just happy to see them going down fighting. To blame it on the refs is clueless, they're shite for all the teams not just us. The reason we get so upset is because on the whole we're far more passionate than the supporters in the other cities. Like I said love his passion but stop blaming the fucking refs.

Second season and we're a better team at this point than we were last season. After having waited for 29 years for a team I can put up with it, but fully expect a deeper and more talented squad next season.

Roogsy
10-13-2008, 07:05 PM
The call was for a "handball" according to both the Dallas players and the media.

I have not seen a game report. Are those even made public? I'd be very interested.

CretanBull
10-13-2008, 07:05 PM
I purposely didn't go into the other thread but I'll ask this did it state on his game report that he called handball or are we basing that on something else.

The call at the time was hand ball - players from both teams have said so. I'm sure to save face it will now be said that the call was on the shirt tug, but realistically that's not a call that would have been made (was that a foul? yes...but it happened at least a dozen times in the game and hadn't been called).

shaggingscot
10-13-2008, 07:08 PM
The call at the time was hand ball - players from both teams have said so. I'm sure to save face it will now be said that the call was on the shirt tug, but realistically that's not a call that would have been made (was that a foul? yes...but it happened at least a dozen times in the game and hadn't been called).

Fair enough, if he called handball then he was clearly wrong.

Chevy
10-13-2008, 07:10 PM
FWIT, Something from Steve Davis (ESPN):

Toronto is going on about being "robbed," as coach John Carver said after Saturday's 2-2 tie at Dallas. Indeed, it was a gritty and dogged effort from a depleted TFC side. But Carver really shouldn't play the victim card here. You may disagree with referee Mark Geiger's decision, and that's fine. Still, rookie defender Julius James did enough to prompt consideration, at least, wrapping up and then yanking Adrian Serioux to the ground as the FCD defender challenged for a header near goal.

For Carver not to acknowledge some culpability on James' part is to create a victimization complex and fails to shape the accountability that every club needs.


http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=581467&sec=mls&root=mls&campaign=rss&source=soccernet&&cc=5901

Roogsy
10-13-2008, 07:17 PM
At least on this site, we have all agreed the stupidity of James' part.

But it does not erase the fact that the PK should not have been awarded for reasons mentioned earlier which only highlights the fact that these boneheaded refs have been blowing calls against us all season and in my guestimation, probably have cost us a good 6 to 8 points. Oddly enough...what it would take to get us in playoff contention.

I have never felt that an occasional mistake by arbiters should be made a big deal. But when it happens consistently...I can't do anything but accept Carver's victim claims. When places in the standings are stolen from you on a consistent basis, how can you NOT cry out?

shaggingscot
10-13-2008, 07:22 PM
At least on this site, we have all agreed the stupidity of James' part.

But it does not erase the fact that the PK should not have been awarded for reasons mentioned earlier which only highlights the fact that these boneheaded refs have been blowing calls against us all season and in my guestimation, probably have cost us a good 6 to 8 points. Oddly enough...what it would take to get us in playoff contention.

I have never felt that an occasional mistake by arbiters should be made a big deal. But when it happens consistently...I can't do anything but accept Carver's victim claims. When places in the standings are stolen from you on a consistent basis, how can you NOT cry out?

The problem is that it's happening to other clubs as well and his moaning about it all the time isn't helping matters. Fair enough complain to the league but not to the press, while we all appreciate his passion the refs do read the papers and watch tv.

Roogsy
10-13-2008, 07:24 PM
^I accept that, so the outcry should be even louder!

But at the end of the day, I don't care if it happens to other teams...we're the ones fighting for a playoff spot and it should be decided by the players on the pitch, not the ref.

At the moment, it's the refs deciding the results and that should be unacceptable. I'd be embarrassed if TFC benefited from the types of calls that have gone against us. I wouldn't want to win that way. Obviously I would not be as upset...but I think it's understandable why we would be.

As for complaining to the press...it's necessary for the pressure on the league to be effective.

Shakes McQueen
10-13-2008, 07:27 PM
FWIT, Something from Steve Davis (ESPN):

Toronto is going on about being "robbed," as coach John Carver said after Saturday's 2-2 tie at Dallas. Indeed, it was a gritty and dogged effort from a depleted TFC side. But Carver really shouldn't play the victim card here. You may disagree with referee Mark Geiger's decision, and that's fine. Still, rookie defender Julius James did enough to prompt consideration, at least, wrapping up and then yanking Adrian Serioux to the ground as the FCD defender challenged for a header near goal.

For Carver not to acknowledge some culpability on James' part is to create a victimization complex and fails to shape the accountability that every club needs.


http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=581467&sec=mls&root=mls&campaign=rss&source=soccernet&&cc=5901

I'm sure Carver will acknowledge that James shouldn't have done what he did knowing the stakes, but if the call was for the handball, then the ref was just straight-up wrong, as the handball occurred before he was pulled to the ground.

This isn't even a case of being "accidentally right", as the handball foul should be against Dallas, not Toronto.

As Roogsy also pointed out - you aren't even supposed to let a free kick take place when that kind of mugging is happening in the box. You will frequently see officials halt play before a corner kick, for example, to tell players to tone it down.

This isn't whining about a call that could have gone either way. Take a look at the blown up freeze frame shot of Serioux - he hand balled it first. We got robbed.

Should James have pawed him either way? No. But even Kenny Cooper acknowledged that the call was for a hand ball, and he was in a better position than us to know what the ref was saying on the pitch at that moment.

- Scott

Roogsy
10-13-2008, 07:31 PM
Ergo...no pk, no goal, no draw. TFC win.

2 points were taken from TFC. 3 point difference with Dallas another team fighting for a playoff spot.

I hate MLS refs.

Shakes McQueen
10-13-2008, 07:32 PM
The problem is that it's happening to other clubs as well and his moaning about it all the time isn't helping matters. Fair enough complain to the league but not to the press, while we all appreciate his passion the refs do read the papers and watch tv.

To Carver's credit, he has basically stopped bitching about the awful officiating to the media. I don't think he will be showing that restraint in this next interview, however.

Every club has fallen victim to the shoddy officiating in MLS, you are right. But to have it affect to us at such a pivotal moment, in such a pivotal game, enrages me.

I suspect MLSE have already filed a shoe box full of complaint notices to the league this season, about the referees. MLS don't seem to care.

- Scott

Roogsy
10-13-2008, 07:39 PM
Some of those calls have stayed in my nightmares.

The one glaring one that almost made me break my TV was the non-call against Edu when he was tackled from behind in the box AND there was no call.

Not only did we go on to lose that game by a goal...it completely enraged the team and ruined the tone of the game which had been going in Toronto's favour.

I will never forgive MLS for putting these incompetent fools on the pitch.

stretchthetruth
10-13-2008, 08:09 PM
why are some so quick to villify james, when the same shit was going on both ways, not only all game - but at the exact same time in the box... all of that jostling, and you're telling me that dallas didnt commit a foul?? come on - it was a bullshit call, by a ref who was blowing the whistle before serioux hit the ground - because he called the handball... and aside from that, serioux takes a sweet little dive just to ram the point home... he knew he committed the handball, and then did a little pirouette to try to cover it up.

BuSaPuNk
10-13-2008, 08:51 PM
Ergo...no pk, no goal, no draw. TFC win.

2 points were taken from TFC. 3 point difference with Dallas another team fighting for a playoff spot.

I hate MLS refs.

Hey don't forget the 3 points at home with a bullshit call against Dallas. That is 5 and counting......

Blizzard
10-13-2008, 09:12 PM
FWIT, Something from Steve Davis (ESPN):

Toronto is going on about being "robbed," as coach John Carver said after Saturday's 2-2 tie at Dallas. Indeed, it was a gritty and dogged effort from a depleted TFC side. But Carver really shouldn't play the victim card here. You may disagree with referee Mark Geiger's decision, and that's fine. Still, rookie defender Julius James did enough to prompt consideration, at least, wrapping up and then yanking Adrian Serioux to the ground as the FCD defender challenged for a header near goal.

For Carver not to acknowledge some culpability on James' part is to create a victimization complex and fails to shape the accountability that every club needs.


http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=581467&sec=mls&root=mls&campaign=rss&source=soccernet&&cc=5901

How do you know he hasn't done so? We're waiting to hear his words tomorrow to know exactly what he has to say.

TorCanSoc
10-13-2008, 09:43 PM
Today's news by G.Wheeler said it best. The call was wrong for many reasons. But maybe a fluke playoff spot for a team that has no right to contend for it woudl be a bad thing for TFC.

A lucky playoff entry would have MLSE touting success and giving us a lack lustre season 3.

Pronto
10-13-2008, 10:23 PM
I love his passion but he'd be wrong in this case. It was clearly a foul.

i agree with you but Fuk.... its frustrating

its one of those calls were you can say why didn't the ref jus let them play the game and take the free kick again??? but on they other hand Julius James did grab his jersey, held him down on the play right in front of the ref. Rookie mistake

deja vu! anyone remember Vancouver @ BMO??

CretanBull
10-13-2008, 10:43 PM
i agree with you but Fuk.... its frustrating

its one of those calls were you can say why didn't the ref jus let them play the game and take the free kick again??? but on they other hand Julius James did grab his jersey, held him down on the play right in front of the ref. Rookie mistake

deja vu! anyone remember Vancouver @ BMO??

What does James grabbing a jersey have to do with the handball that was called against him?

TorCanSoc
10-13-2008, 11:09 PM
This can go on for about 7 more months. Opening kick off season 3 will fade this argument. Its a hot one. Tough tough tough to pick sides.

Carts
10-13-2008, 11:24 PM
Carts point has some validity about not calling it in the 90th but does that mean you can get away with murder in injury time because the refs shouldn't call it?

That's not really my point - that you can get away with murder in the 90th...

My point was (turned out to be moot b/c the call was a handball and not the shirt tug), that if something isn't a foul in minute one, it isn't a foul in minute 90... And if something is a foul is minute 10, it remains a foul in minute 89 etc etc etc...

Consistency is EVERYTHING when it comes to officiating... If a ref calls a game consistent, he can make the most absurd calls - but you know whats a foul and what isn't...

Like I said, its a moot point now b/c its a hand-ball foul apparently - but all I want to see is a ref walk out on the pitch, and call a game foul-for-foul consistently. What's a foul at the start, is a foul in the middle, and a foul at the end...

But hey, at the same time I'd like to see myself win the 649 and the Leafs win the cup - at least I have a better chance at winning 649 than getting a consistent MLS ref, and an even bigger chance winning 649 than the Leafs winning a cup! :D

Carts...

Axeman
10-13-2008, 11:49 PM
Ergo...no pk, no goal, no draw. TFC win.

2 points were taken from TFC. 3 point difference with Dallas another team fighting for a playoff spot.

I hate MLS refs.
Exactly! We were Robbed.
I love watching MLS but hate the officiating.

Pronto
10-14-2008, 02:31 AM
What does James grabbing a jersey have to do with the handball that was called against him?

i think you have some wrong info...
Adrian Serioux went up for a header, james grabbed his jersey and pulled him down. as the ball came to Serioux it hit him in the Arm. Which means PK when shit like that happends in the box

it was the right call...

CretanBull
10-14-2008, 03:06 AM
i think you have some wrong info...
Adrian Serioux went up for a header, james grabbed his jersey and pulled him down. as the ball came to Serioux it hit him in the Arm. Which means PK when shit like that happends in the box

it was the right call...

But the call wasn't for a jersey tug, the PK was awarded because James supposedly committed a handball in the box that was the penalty, not the jersey tug - Kenny Cooper said so himself. Why do you think everyone is so pissed off?

From the Toronto Sun:



Well into stoppage time, off a Dallas free kick, the ball was played into TFC's box. With all kinds of pushing and grabbing going on, TFC defender Julius James was called for a hand ball. Kenny Cooper of Dallas stepped to the spot and buried the penalty for his second goal of the game, ensuring a 2-2 finish and essentially ending the visitors' playoff hopes.

THE WRONG HAND

As for the call, was it actually James' hand that touched the ball? No. The hand making contact was that of Dallas defender Adrian Serioux.
Was James grabbing Serioux? Absolutely. But the penalty was given based on the hand ball.

After the game, goal-scorer Cooper admitted: "I heard hand ball. We were fortunate to get the penalty in the end."

Axeman
10-14-2008, 03:32 AM
Even Cooper knows the ref fucked up. The ref couldn't wait to hand out the PK.

TicTacTabarnack
10-14-2008, 10:07 AM
http://www.freewebs.com/silentstormcln/Backgrounds/handballsig.jpg
By Serioux!

MisterMacphisto
10-14-2008, 11:16 AM
^ I do not agree...

It was. I have it TIVO'd and watched it over and over. It wasn't just a shirt tug from Julius James.

JJ grabs his shirt hard, then wraps both his arms completely around Serioux as he's going up to actually stop him. The ball hits Serioux's hand because of it.

The ref had no choice but to call it.

Roogsy
10-14-2008, 11:19 AM
It was. I have it TIVO'd and watched it over and over. It wasn't just a shirt tug from Julius James.

JJ grabs his shirt hard, then wraps both his arms completely around Serioux as he's going up to actually stop him. The ball hits Serioux's hand because of it.

The ref had no choice but to call it.

But he didn't call the shirt-tug. He called the handball. That is the point you are missing! James wasn't called for the shirt-tug meaning the ref completely missed that (being the idiot he was) and called a handball...which was not James but actually Serioux!

And the additional point that a FK should NOT be taken while there is jostling in the box. Which there was by both sides.

How many times are we going to have to repeat these same points?

Huginho
10-14-2008, 11:23 AM
Actually the Ref did call the holding. If you watch the replay again, after the ref points to the spot you see him make a gesture with both arms very similar to a holding call you would see an NFL umpire make. have a look for yourself.


But he didn't call the shirt-tug. He called the handball. That is the point you are missing! James wasn't called for the shirt-tug meaning the ref completely missed that (being the idiot he was) and called a handball...which was not James but actually Serioux!

And the additional point that a FK should NOT be taken while there is jostling in the box. Which there was by both sides.

How many times are we going to have to repeat these same points?

Roogsy
10-14-2008, 11:25 AM
Actually the Ref did call the holding. If you watch the replay again, after the ref points to the spot you see him make a gesture with both arms very similar to a holding call you would see an NFL umpire make. have a look for yourself.

I will have to take a look at the replay but I saw no such gesture. All players interviewed mention that the call was a handball. All media reports say it was a handball. I am dying to find an official game report.

And it still does not negate the 2nd point.

UltraFootyKWC
10-14-2008, 11:46 AM
Even if James tugged Serioux's jersey, that is not a call to be made in stoppage time. That shit happens all game long. On any corner or set play everyone has a handful of jersey and it doesn't get called, and then this. And did James even get carded? In my opinion penalties should only be called for yellow/red card offenses in the box, especially that late in the game.

There's nothing that can be done about it now, we have to live with the decision, but the MLS definately needs to find some consistency in their reffing.

Mark in Ottawa
10-14-2008, 11:53 AM
I love his passion but he'd be wrong in this case. It was clearly a foul.
True but there were a lot of fouls going on just then and I don't believe that a scoring chance was denied on the original play.

Mark in Ottawa
10-14-2008, 11:55 AM
If this call had occurred at the other end of the field...
what would we all think of it then? :rolleyes:

TicTacTabarnack
10-14-2008, 12:01 PM
If this call had occurred at the other end of the field...
what would we all think of it then? :rolleyes:

Still a bloody bad call ... But then it would be FC Dallas fans being livid and pissed off about the terrible officiating track record in MLS.

giambac
10-14-2008, 01:21 PM
But the call wasn't for a jersey tug, the PK was awarded because James supposedly committed a handball in the box that was the penalty, not the jersey tug - Kenny Cooper said so himself. Why do you think everyone is so pissed off?

From the Toronto Sun:


Who really gives a fuck if it was a handball or a tuuging of the jersey..

I contacted the ref personally and he said Seroux touched the ball with his hand. However it was becasue James was grabbing and pulling him down which caused the handball. James was the guilty person who caused the infraction. What don't you undersatnd????

It was the right call. Stop whining.

Roogsy
10-14-2008, 01:34 PM
Who really gives a fuck if it was a handball or a tuuging of the jersey..

I contacted the ref personally and he said Seroux touched the ball with his hand. However it was becasue James was grabbing and pulling him down which caused the handball. James was the guilty person who caused the infraction. What don't you undersatnd????

It was the right call. Stop whining.

Of course it matters.

1) It shows the ref didn't know what he was doing since he gave an incorrect reason for a PK.
2) It doesn't answer the question why the ref did not stop the manhandling in the box before the FK as most refs do and are instructed by FIFA.

Without answering those two questions, how could it be considered "the right call" simply because James was caught mugging the guy? Is this a case of the ends justifies the means? And I suppose TFC would have been the beneficiary of the same call had it gone the other way huh?

H Bomb
10-14-2008, 01:35 PM
Who really gives a fuck if it was a handball or a tuuging of the jersey..

I contacted the ref personally and he said Seroux touched the ball with his hand. However it was becasue James was grabbing and pulling him down which caused the handball. James was the guilty person who caused the infraction. What don't you undersatnd????

It was the right call. Stop whining.

...so you contacted the ref..(pics or definitely didn't happen) ..who said serioux touched the ball with his hand...which is why he called a penalty for handball against us like he said he did?

And being pulled down caused a handball is really really stupid dude....you gotta try harder than that.

shaunsas
10-14-2008, 01:45 PM
spread the word and tell everyone to email into the mls feedback at this email.

feedback@mlsnet.com (feedback@mlsnet.com)

maybe a few thousand pissed off emails about how terrible the refs are will get some attention.

if a call like the penalty that lost 2 points for TFC was called in english premier league that ref would never have a job again.

it's completely not acceptable and they wonder why some people want to drink before watching garbage like that.

Pronto
10-14-2008, 02:08 PM
http://www.freewebs.com/silentstormcln/Backgrounds/handballsig.jpg
By Serioux!


in the pic you can clearly see james holdin him down

check out fox soccer channel tonight maybe they'll show it again so everyone can see it.