MLS Officiating

[Nuvinho]

I know in England, the refs are evaluated and don't get certain games if they make bad calls etc.

It seems that there is always one bad call per game, not only for TFC, but for every team.

I mean, can't they punish refs for making bad calls!!

[SLBuu]

i highly doubt it..... and even if they do..... all the refs blow donkey dick so you wouldn't have a work force if they all got suspended any.

[mlsintoronto]

yes - surf around here and you'll find it.

http://ussoccer.com/articles/viewArticle.jsp_9994242.html

[Azerban]

He's leaving because the officiating is only consistent in the way that it's absolutely atrocious game in and game out. The DP thing may be an excuse, but it's obvious what the number one thing that pisses him off is. My hope is that he shits all over the league on his way out, calling people out publicly is the only way anything is ever going to change. Every single game, week by week, we get fucked. We can go two years without getting a single PK at home, and yet shit like that gets called? I wouldn't blame him if he saw the last two games through, packed his fucking bags and left.

[kelzag]

I wouldn't blame him either but truly hopes he sticks it out with us.

[Chevy]

In all honestly, if he wants to leave I just don't give a shit anymore. I have had enough of this "i'm packing my bags" shit that seems to come up on a weekly basis. It can be good for morale if the coach continously threatens to quit.

[Laurignano]

who cares.

[TicTacTabarnack]

Feel free to write him your own to askthecommissioner@mlsnet.com... Who knows if anything will come from it, but it was quite therapeutic for me to get this off my chest after yet another point being handed to FC Dallas on a Silver platter due to questionable calls.

------------------------------------
From: TicTacTabarnack
To: askthecommissioner@mlsnet.com
Subject: FIX QUESTIONABLE OFFICIATING NOW!!!
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 23:35:31 -0400

Mr. Commissioner,

As a second year season ticket holder and have renewed for a third season, I am seriously getting completely disgusted by the terrible officiating in this league. For yet another time (I HAVE STOPPED COUNTING BECAUSE I CAN'T TAKE IT ANY MORE), TFC has been plighted by questionable officiating.

I have watched the replay over and over and it is clear the referee screws up and calls a handball. Serioux hand balls it though... That's right ... an FC Dallas player hand balls it in the TFC box and TFC get penalized with a PK in the 90th minute. This has got to be one of the worst calls I've seen and it could end up costing TFC a playoff spot.

Referees in this league are giving away far too many games on questionable calls resulting in PKs on questionable calls that are rarely called in any other league. It has already got to a point where the refs need more than 4 police officers to escort them off the field after a game in Toronto. Does one of them have to get hurt by a completely angry TFC Supporter Mob before you do something about their terrible track record?!?

Nothing has changed ... What are you doing??? You have done absolutely NOTHING to improve the quality of officiating in this league and degrades the experience OVER AND OVER AND OVER again. Their quality continues to be biased and terrible!

If TFC plays like crap and loses than fine ... I understand. If TFC play well but the opposing team plays better than fine ... I understand. But for the love of God ... It's about time the refs in this league get their shit together and stop affecting the games in a negative manner and handing 3 points (or taking 3 away) on questionable calls.

Enough is Enough!!! I'm sure this is not just something that TFC supporters are enraged about because this happens in other games as well. All it takes is a quick google search to realize this ... The same ref from tonight has been called out in a questionable way in other games in the past (http://www.soccernewengland.com/arti...le.php?id=1195 (http://www.soccernewengland.com/articles/view_article.php?id=1195)).

I'm getting tired of this Bush league and my choice to renew my season tickets for a fourth season will not only be decided on if TFC and MLSE begin to make some positive changes next year ... THE LEAGUE needs to make some serious changes to increase the quality of officials you employ!

Please address this problem ... It's about time something gets done!

Regards,

TicTacTabarnack (I used my real name though)

[StandUpIfYouHateChelsea]

well done , totally agree just a sode q, tho who was the ref for the canada day game vs vancouver? not to blame it on the ref, but that was a shite pk call to ......and the ref against honduras in montreal? not to blame the ref , but shit that guevara dive/ handball and giving him a free kick?? yeah i feel your anger

[Azerban]

yeah i would probably threaten their refs with violence too that's the way things get done

[TicTacTabarnack]

yeah i would probably threaten their refs with violence too that's the way things get done

That wasn't a threat ... It's just that with the amount of passion the TFC Supporters bring to BMO Field and the aggravation we feel after getting robbed on more than one occasion I can foresee something bad happening if they don't resolve the referee issue.

[Cashcleaner]

The only problem is that you're talking about the dynamics of soccer to a person that probably doesn't know a thing about playing the actual sport. :(

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I agree the officiating is shit but nothing will come of this.
Good luck anyways and im hoping for the best

[jloome]

Yeah, write a letter about a blown call, where there was a penalty on James, but he called a handball instead. They're going to have a looot of sympathy for that.

[Blizzard]

In all honestly, if he wants to leave I just don't give a shit anymore. I have had enough of this "i'm packing my bags" shit that seems to come up on a weekly basis. It can be good for morale if the coach continously threatens to quit.

He's voicing not just his frustration but also the frustration of his players. They all feel the same way but they have nowhere to go (for the most part).

And in all seriousness, why should any of us have to put up with this kind of b.s. refereeing.

The players love J.C. He is speaking for them!!!

[Blizzard]

yes - surf around here and you'll find it.

http://ussoccer.com/articles/viewArticle.jsp_9994242.html

(sigh)

It's sad that it doesn't seem to do any good. They aren't improving!

It's exactly like in the old NASL days. The players and game were beyond the officials and that is exactly the case now.

It's sad and shameful!

B

[egoodwin]

i love TFC through and through but I don't know how much more of this farce officiating I can tolerate...

[James Oliphant]

TicTacTabarnack

Good thing, because I'll bet even Don Garber knows how to spell "tabernac" correctly.

[Dub Narcotic]

You know, the refeering is the same for all the teams. Frankly, all the calls even out over the course of a season and the cream rises to the top regardless. If you are going to blow a gasket every time something in MLS isn't as good as a top European league, you are not going to last as a fan very long.

[king dave]

Thanks for the link TTT.
Just sent a short, well worded note of concern to him.
All I mentioned was this,

I've been watching football for most of my 40+ years.

I am a season ticket holder and support the MLS.

I've witnessed many missed calls, but never on this level/frequency.

I requested that something should be done.

KD.

[Dub Narcotic]

He's leaving because the officiating is only consistent in the way that it's absolutely atrocious game in and game out. The DP thing may be an excuse, but it's obvious what the number one thing that pisses him off is. My hope is that he shits all over the league on his way out, calling people out publicly is the only way anything is ever going to change. Every single game, week by week, we get fucked. We can go two years without getting a single PK at home, and yet shit like that gets called? I wouldn't blame him if he saw the last two games through, packed his fucking bags and left.

I agree it would be Carver's style to find a scapegoat after coaching a team to near the bottom of the table.

[Shakes McQueen]

I agree it would be Carver's style to find a scapegoat after coaching a team to near the bottom of the table.

Coached them TO the bottom of the table? This team has more points than last year's team. This team has a far less embarrassing goal differential than last year's team.

I think the last couple of weeks have proven that blaming this team's ills on a lack of coaching acumen by Carver, was tenuous logic at best.

We got robbed tonight, and I wouldn't begrudge Carver for deflecting blame to the ref for this one.

- Scott

[king dave]

Coached them TO the bottom of the table? This team has more points than last year's team. This team has a far less embarrassing goal differential than last year's team.

I think the last couple of weeks have proven that blaming this team's ills on a lack of coaching acumen by Carver, was tenuous logic at best.

We got robbed tonight, and I wouldn't begrudge Carver for deflecting blame to the ref for this one.

- Scott
Well said Shakes.
KD.

[The Kingpin]

yes - surf around here and you'll find it.

http://ussoccer.com/articles/viewArticle.jsp_9994242.html

Paul, is the league aware of how desperate the situation us? And to be clear this is not a Toronto only problem but a general league problem that is effecting credibility and as you attract new educated supporters sustainability. I'm not one to scream about officiating with any regularity whatsoever as I think the poor game calling is a pandemic in the game in general; but the MLS referees are significantly below par in general. Also, has there even been the hint of suggestion that there may be video review for goals and penalties? Just curious.

[twistedchinaman]

Paul, is the league aware of how desperate the situation us? And to be clear this is not a Toronto only problem but a general league problem that is effecting credibility and as you attract new educated supporters sustainability. I'm not one to scream about officiating with any regularity whatsoever as I think the poor game calling is a pandemic in the game in general; but the MLS referees are significantly below par in general. Also, has there even been the hint of suggestion that there may be video review for goals and penalties? Just curious.

That probably will light a fire under some of those refs' asses -- which will put everyone on their toes.

[Dub Narcotic]

Coached them TO the bottom of the table? This team has more points than last year's team. This team has a far less embarrassing goal differential than last year's team.

I think the last couple of weeks have proven that blaming this team's ills on a lack of coaching acumen by Carver, was tenuous logic at best.

We got robbed tonight, and I wouldn't begrudge Carver for deflecting blame to the ref for this one.

- Scott

Your argument is that a small sample size is more indicitive of Carver's skills than a large sample size? TFC is one of the worst teams by points in the league and has the worst goal differential in the league. Given that Toronto has arguably the best home field advantage in the league, it's an easy case to make that they are still the worst team overall, a few points at the end of the season notwithstanding.

I could take or leave Carver, but the whole tone of your post is that Carver is somehow on a higher plane than the rest of the league, a claim which is completely ridiculous. Carver has never been a successful manager in any league, and has been a complete flop in MLS as measured by the only thing that matters, wins and losses. Someone like Ruud Gullit, a major name in international football, or Steve Nicol, who has been consistently successful in MLS, have the credibility to criticize the league, Carver does not.

Carver taking shots at the league, at this point, is like Adam Braz taking shots at the league. People have to respect you to care what you say, and I fail to see how Carver has earned that respect, except from posters on this board who are a little too impressed with someone dropping names from British football.

I have some more to say about Carver but I'm going to write a big boring recap at the end of the year that no one will read so I'll hold it until then.

[Blizzard]

Yeah, write a letter about a blown call, where there was a penalty on James, but he called a handball instead. They're going to have a looot of sympathy for that.

By the letter of the law, you're right but the reality is that if they made that call every time (Consistency? What's that???) we'd have a penalty called on 90% of corners.

Yes, you're right, the shirt pull is not an incorrect call. It would just be bloody nice if they'd make up their minds about calling it or not!

[Blizzard]

BTW, Freeman was another victim tonight. He made a lovely sliding interception of a ball in the second half and was yellow carded. He played it perfectly, took all ball and then had the Dallas player stumble over his body.

It was a ridiculous call. It is that type of thing as much as the penalty call that makes MLS officials look incompetent.

We'd sort of forgotten about that play what will all the PK discussion going on.

B

[Shakes McQueen]

Your argument is that a small sample size is more indicitive of Carver's skills than a large sample size? TFC is one of the worst teams by points in the league and has the worst goal differential in the league. Given that Toronto has arguably the best home field advantage in the league, it's an easy case to make that they are still the worst team overall, a few points at the end of the season notwithstanding.

You think a few months worth of an expansion team's second season of existence is considered a "large" sample size?

My point had nothing to do with the fact that we won the last two games. My point was that this team can clearly win when it wants to. It can clearly execute whatever strategy Carver is laying out for them, when it wants to. And when it wants to do so, those strategies seem to work pretty well.

Our long run of poor play wasn't punctuated by poor strategy (save for the long-ball nonsense, which even Carver denounced in interviews) - it was punctuated by poor passing, a reluctance to shoot, and a lot of lazy ball watching.


[quote]I could take or leave Carver, but the whole tone of your post is that Carver is somehow on a higher plane than the rest of the league, a claim which is completely ridiculous.

Except I never made this claim. You're denouncing a claim I never made, that you simply deduced from my "tone". How you got "higher plane" from me pointing out that we have more points this year than last, is beyond me - and not my issue.


Carver has never been a successful manager in any league, and has been a complete flop in MLS as measured by the only thing that matters, wins and losses. Someone like Ruud Gullit, a major name in international football, or Steve Nicol, who has been consistently successful in MLS, have the credibility to criticize the league, Carver does not.

Carver hasn't been given the time, or the stable roster, to adequately judge his worth to this team yet.


Carver taking shots at the league, at this point, is like Adam Braz taking shots at the league. People have to respect you to care what you say, and I fail to see how Carver has earned that respect, except from posters on this board who are a little too impressed with someone dropping names from British football.

So his level of respect is to be gleaned from the results of his first season coaching a second year team?

Carver loves this team, loves the fans (and feels he OWES us a better product on the pitch), and loves his players, as evidenced by the hugs all around after last week's match. He also is clearly using whatever pull he has to get us a DP next season. That alone should earn him a basic level of respect with the fans.

As I said - I think the jury is out on Carver until at least the end of next season, assuming he decides to stay here.

My point was this: Toronto FC has proven it can play a good, inspired game of football, with Carver's game plan. That tells me that our long, shitty slide was due to issues OTHER THAN Carvers lack of coaching ability. Carver didn't suddenly "remember" how to coach the past two weeks - the boys on the pitch simply started playing better on an individual, and team level.

- Scott

[GhostPK]

Dear Mr. Commissioner,

I am yet another Toronto FC fan. I have never been to a Toronto home game nor have I been to a Toronto MLS game. Simply, I live clear across the country. With that being said, however, I am still a major supporter of Toronto FC and always will be.

I know I am not the first, nor will I be the last, to send you a letter regarding the Officiating after a Toronto FC game. However, I would like to present to you two clear points on officiating. On the night of October 11, 2008 in the MLS match up featuring Toronto FC at FC Dallas, perhaps the most controversial call of the year conspires from an official who wears a FIFA certified badge. As it is well known, near the 90th minute of the game, a penalty kick is given to Dallas in which they are able to tie the game and walk away with a single point. Julius James was the defender who appeared to cause such a call by clearly ripping at the Dallas attacker's jersey in the box. I'm am unclear how much English Premier League is watched by the MLS hiearchy, however, anyone who takes a slight interest knows that a decent official will not allow a freekick to be delivered when there is pushing/shoving/holding in the box. Instead the freekick is delayed while the referee sorts things out. Clearly this was not the case. Upon video review, it is obvious that the Dallas player embelishes slightly, and while doing so, makes hand contact with the ball. Again, a decent official would call a freekick on behalf of the defending team, and the game would resume as normal. It is clear that the official makes a devistating mistake. By doing so, he is able to carve the outcome of the game.

As a person who must look at Major League Soccer from a buisness perspective, it is imperative that issues as concerning as these are sorted out immediately. When the food is bad in a restaurant, the owner must make immediate changes or know that their buisness will decline dramatically, perhaps causing the owner to lose their buisness. In football (soccer) officiating plays a larger part then food in a restaurant. When the quality is poor, people are more inclined to avoid such spectacles as frusteration easily builds. This has to be a major concern for the MLS, especially as the MLS is trying to deliver a respected, recognized and top class product to North America where the interest of the masses lies away from soccer. MLS could have franchises all across North America, however if the quality of officiating continues it's destructive path, then teams such as the New York Red Bulls can never be expected to have more interest then 18,000 in a city of over 8 million people (0.2%).

I hope this letter of constructive critisim will help MLS understand more clearly faults that hinder immensly the quality of their product explained in terms of both football and buisness.

GhostPK (real name used in letter)

[CretanBull]

Horse fucking shit.

[Inswingingwingman]

Clarification

Tabarnacle (something found in a Catholic Church, and thus a no-no word for Cathos. The common pronunciation is to drop the le and say the c as a k.

Ta baroutte (actually) taboroutte or your wheelbarrow. (Like saying Gosh instead of God)

Tabarnuche

Tabarsclikadaslackada

or I prefers the..

'sti de colisse de tabarnak de criss de chien sale, in the case of the ref.

[CretanBull]

Clarification

Tabarnacle (something found in a Catholic Church, and thus a no-no word for Cathos. The common pronunciation is to drop the le and say the c as a k.

Ta baroutte (actually) taboroutte or your wheelbarrow. (Like saying Gosh instead of God)

Tabarnuche

Tabarsclikadaslackada

or I prefers the..

'sti de colisse de tabarnak de criss de chien sale, in the case of the ref.

English translation = horse fucking shit.

[Blazer]

^ Nice one GPK

[coisty1966]

I mean really...what else is new? its not just MLS....its just about every sport in every country.....people are saying that things are called in the MLS that the refs would never call in europe? gimmie a break! there are blown calls over there as well....world cups, euro cups, champions league finals...ive been watching these for decades and have seen blown calls in all of them....and thats from the worlds elite.....watch the scottish league...it makes MLS refs look outstanding....

[Axeman]

Either way you look at it, the ref was just looking to give out a PK. James could've sneezed on Serioux and the ref would've made the same call. Fucking Horrible!

[BigLou]

yes - surf around here and you'll find it.

http://ussoccer.com/articles/viewArticle.jsp_9994242.html

Good nugget!!! I didn't know they had anything like this set up. You can bet I will be reading this every single week.

[nascarguy]

here is something the ref forgot to read
http://images.ussoccer.com/Documents/cms/ussf/Advice%20for%20New%20Referees%20_2.pdf

[nascarguy]

National Office Staff Directoryhttp://www.ussoccer.com/images/default/bg_page_titles02.gif
The referee office staff can be reached via direct email.

For questions or comments regarding Referee Registration, please contact:

Blake Ewing, Registration Coordinator - bewing@ussoccer.org (bewing@ussoccer.org)
Steven Murry, Manager of Registration - smurry@ussoccer.org (smurry@ussoccer.org)
For information about policies, procedures, rules or Laws of the Game, please contact:

Adrian Garibay, Director of Registration and Administration - agaribay@ussoccer.org (agaribay@ussoccer.org)
Alfred Kleinaitis, Manager of Referee Development & Education - akleinaitis@ussoccer.org (akleinaitis@ussoccer.org)
For questions about Professional League Referee Assignments or Assessment Scheduling, please contact:

Paul Tamberino, Director of Referee Development - ptamberino@ussoccer.org (ptamberino@ussoccer.org)
Brian Hall, Manager of Assessment and Training - brianhall@ussoccer.org (brianhall@ussoccer.org)
Herb Silva, Associate Manager of Assessment and Training - hsilva@ussoccer.org (hsilva@ussoccer.org)
Dick Triche, Manager of Assignment - rtriche@ussoccer.org (rtriche@ussoccer.org)
For questions about Referee Material & Equipment Orders:

Call: (312) 528-1241 or e-mail Carol McGuire - cmcguire@ussoccer.org (cmcguire@ussoccer.org)
For program, clinic, workshop questions/general information, please contact:

Carol McGuire, Referee Programs Manager - cmcguire@ussoccer.org (cmcguire@ussoccer.org)
If you are not sure who to address, write to anyone above. Your question will be forwarded to the right party.

the ref are
referee: Mark Geiger
Referee's Assistants: Anthony Vasoli; Emiliano Monje
4th official: Edvin Jurisevic

[NateDoGG]

john carver must of had a heartattack last night

that was pretty much the worst call i have EVER seen in the mls


and i thought the players were gonna gangbang that ref at one point.

[rocker]

so whose on our hit list..

1. Mark Geiger
2. Steven Depiero
3......

[Carter]

so whose on our hit list..

1. Mark Geiger
2. Steven Depiero
3......

Baldomero Toledo

[Carter]

National Office Staff Directoryhttp://www.ussoccer.com/images/default/bg_page_titles02.gif
The referee office staff can be reached via direct email.

For questions or comments regarding Referee Registration, please contact:

Blake Ewing, Registration Coordinator - bewing@ussoccer.org (bewing@ussoccer.org)
Steven Murry, Manager of Registration - smurry@ussoccer.org (smurry@ussoccer.org)

For information about policies, procedures, rules or Laws of the Game, please contact:

Adrian Garibay, Director of Registration and Administration - agaribay@ussoccer.org (agaribay@ussoccer.org)
Alfred Kleinaitis, Manager of Referee Development & Education - akleinaitis@ussoccer.org (akleinaitis@ussoccer.org)

For questions about Professional League Referee Assignments or Assessment Scheduling, please contact:

Paul Tamberino, Director of Referee Development - ptamberino@ussoccer.org (ptamberino@ussoccer.org)
Brian Hall, Manager of Assessment and Training - brianhall@ussoccer.org (brianhall@ussoccer.org)
Herb Silva, Associate Manager of Assessment and Training - hsilva@ussoccer.org (hsilva@ussoccer.org)
Dick Triche, Manager of Assignment - rtriche@ussoccer.org (rtriche@ussoccer.org)

For questions about Referee Material & Equipment Orders:

Call: (312) 528-1241 or e-mail Carol McGuire - cmcguire@ussoccer.org (cmcguire@ussoccer.org)

For program, clinic, workshop questions/general information, please contact:

Carol McGuire, Referee Programs Manager - cmcguire@ussoccer.org (cmcguire@ussoccer.org)

If you are not sure who to address, write to anyone above. Your question will be forwarded to the right party.

the ref are
referee: Mark Geiger
Referee's Assistants: Anthony Vasoli; Emiliano Monje
4th official: Edvin Jurisevic

We need to point out more than just one game... Cause if we don't we are going to look like whiners because we aren't going to make the playoffs because of the call.. We need to put something together WITH ALL the shitty officiating in the league.. not just TFC related. it needs to be an all out attack at all the OFFICIATING, not just against us.. ALL.

[Pachuco]

You think a few months worth of an expansion team's second season of existence is considered a "large" sample size?

My point had nothing to do with the fact that we won the last two games. My point was that this team can clearly win when it wants to. It can clearly execute whatever strategy Carver is laying out for them, when it wants to. And when it wants to do so, those strategies seem to work pretty well.

Our long run of poor play wasn't punctuated by poor strategy (save for the long-ball nonsense, which even Carver denounced in interviews) - it was punctuated by poor passing, a reluctance to shoot, and a lot of lazy ball watching.[quote]



Except I never made this claim. You're denouncing a claim I never made, that you simply deduced from my "tone". How you got "higher plane" from me pointing out that we have more points this year than last, is beyond me - and not my issue.



Carver hasn't been given the time, or the stable roster, to adequately judge his worth to this team yet.



So his level of respect is to be gleaned from the results of his first season coaching a second year team?

Carver loves this team, loves the fans (and feels he OWES us a better product on the pitch), and loves his players, as evidenced by the hugs all around after last week's match. He also is clearly using whatever pull he has to get us a DP next season. That alone should earn him a basic level of respect with the fans.

As I said - I think the jury is out on Carver until at least the end of next season, assuming he decides to stay here.

My point was this: Toronto FC has proven it can play a good, inspired game of football, with Carver's game plan. That tells me that our long, shitty slide was due to issues OTHER THAN Carvers lack of coaching ability. Carver didn't suddenly "remember" how to coach the past two weeks - the boys on the pitch simply started playing better on an individual, and team level.

- Scott

Wow, that statement is a joke. TFC plays 2 good games and you attribute it to Carver. But they win 1 in I don't know how many fucking months and you attribute that to anything else other then Carver? This statement will make my sunday, I felt like having a good laugh today.

[Shakes McQueen]

Wow, that statement is a joke. TFC plays 2 good games and you attribute it to Carver. But they win 1 in I don't know how many fucking months and you attribute that to anything else other then Carver? This statement will make my sunday, I felt like having a good laugh today.

NO. That isn't what I bloody said at all. Fuck me, I'm tired of people taking what I say and shoehorning it into a context where they feel comfortable being an asshole to me.

My entire point was that our losses AND our wins can be attributed to the guys on the pitch going out and deciding to execute the game plan. I repeatedly said throughout that post, that when the guys on the pitch decide to go out and play with resolve and intensity, they can get results.

I wasn't attributing their success to Carver, so much as I was saying that Carver was a non-issue either way. He has been doing the same thing every week for the whole season. Why has it suddenly started "working" again? Perhaps because our problems were ALWAYS a lack of heart or effort on the pitch?

Thanks for coming out. I'm starting to think you intentionally try to troll all of my posts.

- Scott

[Keegan]

Look, James came on and clearly pulled Serioux down with not one but TWO hands.

WHY? Only he knows? A free header from the top of the 18 isnt going to beat Sutton, nevermind a header which is being contested by 8 players.


Julius James, get a fucking clue. 24 years old, not like he is a young kid.

[T.Reis]

Look, James came on and clearly pulled Serioux down with not one but TWO hands.

WHY? Only he knows? A free header from the top of the 18 isnt going to beat Sutton, nevermind a header which is being contested by 8 players.


Julius James, get a fucking clue. 24 years old, not like he is a young kid.

Agreed! I think what pissed me off was that an MLS referee finally decided to call that, which just happend to be the worst possible time for us!

[H Bomb]

It's true that Julius had a handful of serioux's jersey previous to the kick...but from all the replay's I can see this was not the foul that was called. It seemed to me that the Ref missed a real foul, and then called a fake one five seconds later. This is frustrating because there is no "evening out" in this league...only poor officiating. I don't see Serioux as being pulled down during the header attempt as he raised himself as high as anyone.

[Lucky Strike]

Thankfully, I thought it was foul too, so it makes it easier to accept what happened. I'm still devastated of course, but we can only look to Julius James.

The worst are people who go on to shit on everything, saying things like: "That's it I'm done" and "So long, I can't stand this bleeping bleeper, yadayadayada". We all know they're just being dramatic for the attention.

Indeed, the refereeing sucks in the league, and TFC hasn't performed like we all thought it would, but come on give me a break. You don't just abandon your team like this. For instance, I suffered 5 AWFUL years of pitiful Pittsburgh Penguins who were really nothing more than a glorified AHL team but I stuck with them.

Anyway, I'm just rambling, but enough with these whiners (and not whingers, people), just ignore them. We all love TFC and we know it.

[Shakes McQueen]

Two things:

1) The penalty was called because of a supposed handball, not the jersey tug.
2) My issue is with the consistency. How many times this season have we been in that situation, only to have it not called? To have stuff like that not get called 90% of the time, and then have it result in a penalty in the 90th minute of a must win game for us, is absolutely ridiculous.

A good ref is defined by his willingness to call unpopular fouls, but also his ability to let the clubs play the damn game, and not let the himself define the outcome. The best ref is the one you don't notice. The fact that you notice the MLS refs every match, is a testament to how bad they are.

If you go an entire match, or multiple matches, letting stuff like this slide - you don't then turn around and call it when it matters the most.

I agree though, James is not blameless. He fucked up, and he knows it.

- Scott

[Dirk Diggler]

Thankfully, I thought it was foul too, so it makes it easier to accept what happened. I'm still devastated of course, but we can only look to Julius James.

The worst are people who go on to shit on everything, saying things like: "That's it I'm done" and "So long, I can't stand this bleeping bleeper, yadayadayada". We all know they're just being dramatic for the attention.

Indeed, the refereeing sucks in the league, and TFC hasn't performed like we all thought it would, but come on give me a break. You don't just abandon your team like this. For instance, I suffered 5 AWFUL years of pitiful Pittsburgh Penguins who were really nothing more than a glorified AHL team but I stuck with them.

Anyway, I'm just rambling, but enough with these whiners (and not whingers, people), just ignore them. We all love TFC and we know it.

Indeed. If DC fans can live with poor officiating since the league's birth, we can handle it in the second season of our existence.

[zeelaw]

Wait sorry? This was called because of Serioux's handball?

are you serious?


im going to throw up.

[rocker]

what's wrong with being a homer? ;) does it make you feel better at night that you're supposedly "objective"? are you a journalist?? ;)

[Rudi]

Look, James came on and clearly pulled Serioux down with not one but TWO hands.

WHY? Only he knows? A free header from the top of the 18 isnt going to beat Sutton, nevermind a header which is being contested by 8 players.


Julius James, get a fucking clue. 24 years old, not like he is a young kid.
Bullshit.

James was tugging at Serioux's jersey, but that isn't what knocked him over. One of the other TFC players (I think it was Nana) headed the ball clear and his momentum carried him into Serioux, who then fell over. Incidental contact as the defender was playing the ball. James' shirt grabbing was nothing more than a side-story,

Not a penalty.

[StandUpIfYouHateChelsea]

Well heres a frozen frame of it

http://www.freewebs.com/silentstormcln/Backgrounds/handballpick.jpg

ill try to clear it up with photoshop:canada::canada:

[SLBuu]

i have nothing to say:incazzato:

[Sonny Cheeba]

yes as he was being pulled down, his hand hit the ball. it's all a matter of what happened first and for what exactly it was that the penalty was given.

they should have just retaken the free kick.

[StandUpIfYouHateChelsea]

for the best view of it watch the replay on TFC tv ...

[right-back]

MLS does not want TFC in the play-offs! The team has been getting bad calls against since July. They started sending American based referees to do games in Toronto, not that we were not getting it up the back-side from the Canadian refs anyways.

TFC making the play-offs does nothing for growth of the league south of the border. We cannot grow any more here until the stadium is expanded. 95% renewal rate for the second year in a row with 10,000 people on the waiting list, why do they want to come here in November to play games?

We can only ask for more goals so that the standings don't become so close at the end of the season.

[NateDoGG]

dont tell that to mr coach "blame it on the refs" carver

we cannot blame everything on calls that are against us, WE dont find the back of the net enough, thats our problem, thats why we are not making the playoffs again. and coach carver needs to fix it or his ass will be gone this time next year. we score 1 maybe 2 goals a game if we are lucky... and thats with letting in the same amount or more.......

[Redcoe15]

We act like homers on the outside, when stuff like that penalty call against TFC are made. But on the inside we know James made a mistake. It's all in the nature of being a fan.

[Shakes McQueen]

dont tell that to mr coach "blame it on the refs" carver

we cannot blame everything on calls that are against us, WE dont find the back of the net enough, thats our problem, thats why we are not making the playoffs again. and coach carver needs to fix it or his ass will be gone this time next year. we score 1 maybe 2 goals a game if we are lucky... and thats with letting in the same amount or more.......

1-2 goals per game is pretty standard in football, with relatively evenly matched teams. And we were at least "even" (if not at a disadvantage) with Dallas yesterday, given the big names that were missing from our side.

I consider fighting back from one down to score two, to be no small feat for our depleted squad.

It's our backline that needs to get better, at this point. The forward line have been doing their job as of late.

- Scott

[nascarguy]

Bullshit.

James was tugging at Serioux's jersey, but that isn't what knocked him over. One of the other TFC players (I think it was Nana) headed the ball clear and his momentum carried him into Serioux, who then fell over. Incidental contact as the defender was playing the ball. James' shirt grabbing was nothing more than a side-story,

Not a penalty.

that is what I seen too

[Cambridge_Red]

1-2 goals per game is pretty standard in football, with relatively evenly matched teams. And we were at least "even" (if not at a disadvantage) with Dallas yesterday, given the big names that were missing from our side.

I consider fighting back from one down to score two, to be no small feat for our depleted squad.

It's our backline that needs to get better, at this point. The forward line have been doing their job as of late.

- Scott


Poor decision making in the final 5 mins of the game hasn't made things easy either. How many points have been thrown away this year in injury time??

[Shakes McQueen]

yes as he was being pulled down, his hand hit the ball. it's all a matter of what happened first and for what exactly it was that the penalty was given.

they should have just retaken the free kick.

Agreed. You do NOT affect the outcome of a match with a penalty, in a situation THAT contentious.

The ref fucked up. James did too, but the ref screwed up more. When you're in a situation where you need freeze-frame looks to figure out if one side hand balled it before the other side pulled him down - you retake the damn kick.

Nothing "homer" about that.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

Poor decision making in the final 5 mins of the game hasn't made things easy either. How many points have been thrown away this year in injury time??

That goal in the (first?) game of our home-and-home with Chivas USA a few weeks ago, where we let in a horribly weak goal in the 94th minute, will forever be burned into my brain.

I was watching the game with a friend, and we both shit a brick when it happened.

- Scott

[Lucky Strike]

http://toronto.fc.mlsnet.com/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w=mms%3A//a1503.v115042.c11504.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/11504/v0001/mlbmls.download.akamai.com/11504/2008/open/gp/10/101108_tfcfcd_gp_400.wmv&w_id=26698&catCode=game_packages&type=v_free&_mp=1

The highlights can be found here but aren't much help: the screen is too small.

[Derko]

Does anyone else know that in the Italian League if you are not tugging on an opposing players jersey defending a corner or free kick near the box that you will get a tongue lashing by your coach, shirt tugging in the box is standard defensive practice, the referee should never have called a penalty that late in the game.
Poor call by the referee.

[StandUpIfYouHateChelsea]

http://toronto.fc.mlsnet.com/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w=mms%3A//a1503.v115042.c11504.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/11504/v0001/mlbmls.download.akamai.com/11504/2008/open/gp/10/101108_tfcfcd_gp_400.wmv&w_id=26698&catCode=game_packages&type=v_free&_mp=1

The highlights can be found here but aren't much help: the screen is too small.

you can go fullscreen with it

[TorCanSoc]

A scrum like that, end of a game, no ref makes that call. Blatant fouls going both ways. What a phkn prat of a ref.

[Canadian Blue]

MLS does not want TFC in the play-offs! The team has been getting bad calls against since July. They started sending American based referees to do games in Toronto, not that we were not getting it up the back-side from the Canadian refs anyways.

TFC making the play-offs does nothing for growth of the league south of the border. We cannot grow any more here until the stadium is expanded. 95% renewal rate for the second year in a row with 10,000 people on the waiting list, why do they want to come here in November to play games?

We can only ask for more goals so that the standings don't become so close at the end of the season.

You must be joking right??

[Canadian Blue]

Two things:

1) The penalty was called because of a supposed handball, not the jersey tug.


So you are just making this up or is this your own theory.....Do you have any proof that is why the penalty was called or are you just trying to continue to stir up shit....

[James17930]

Yeah, and James has his arms wrapped around him about to pull him down. So it was ball-to-hand and then James committed the foul.

So . . .?

[The Oz]

^i think because serioux commited his foul first it SHOULD have gone in the favour of TFC

[J .]

I dunno, I think that there are times every game where that could be a penalty. The timing was questionable.

[giambac]

I know in England, the refs are evaluated and don't get certain games if they make bad calls etc.

It seems that there is always one bad call per game, not only for TFC, but for every team.

I mean, can't they punish refs for making bad calls!!

I don't know what your referring to, however if it was the call against James yesterday it was the correct call. Tugging and pulling a player down from his jersey is a penealty.

It caused us the game and the playoffs however it definetly was the correct call.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Look, James came on and clearly pulled Serioux down with not one but TWO hands.

WHY? Only he knows? A free header from the top of the 18 isnt going to beat Sutton, nevermind a header which is being contested by 8 players.


Julius James, get a fucking clue. 24 years old, not like he is a young kid.
I couldn't pick it out in the replay, not out of the ten other guys grabbing each other's shirts. The box was chaos, how could you 'clearly' pick it out?

[Nuvinho]

I don't know what your referring to, however if it was the call against James yesterday it was the correct call. Tugging and pulling a player down from his jersey is a penealty.

It caused us the game and the playoffs however it definetly was the correct call.


are you sure the ref called the tug, or did he call the handball? I think we all need to know what the ref EXACTLY called.

James did tug at him, but if the ref called the handball......what then?? excuse the ref b/c he blew one call, but missed another??

The refs need ACCOUNTABILITY!!!

[werewolf]

So you are just making this up or is this your own theory.....Do you have any proof that is why the penalty was called or are you just trying to continue to stir up shit....

In post match interviews, Carver and Cooper both stated it was for a handball.

I predicted last night that no matter what they heard on the field, the MLS and whoever else wanted to, would say it was for the shirt pull/takedown.

[giambac]

dont tell that to mr coach "blame it on the refs" carver

we cannot blame everything on calls that are against us, WE dont find the back of the net enough, thats our problem, thats why we are not making the playoffs again. and coach carver needs to fix it or his ass will be gone this time next year. we score 1 maybe 2 goals a game if we are lucky... and thats with letting in the same amount or more.......


Carver is a joke and so are all the homers in this forum.

Listen we all want TFC to win and make the playoffs but call a spade a spade.

It was definetly a foul. Tugging and pulling a player down from his jersey is a foul so give the ref credit for making the tough call. He showed he had guts. It kiils our playoff hopes but nonetheless it was the correct call.

What pisses me off more is that Carver and the fans are blaming the ref. I Blame bonehead Carver. Why in the FUck did he bring in a rookie so late in the game. He brought in James, a rookie with the game, with the season on the line in the 88th minute. Well the rookie CHOKED and had a MENTAL Lapse. Carver shouldn't have brought him in at that time. His decision once again caused us the game and now the season. Carve rshould have stuck with the veterans with the season on the line.

How many times have we had mental lapses so late in a agame and in extra time? A coach ha sto know his players late in the season. I guess ours doesn't .

Don't blame the ref. It's the easy way out and it's a cop out!

[J .]

It was a call, but what gets me is the timing. I saw the shirt pull, I saw Nana hit Serioux, but it didn't look like to me that caused the handball. Serioux more powerful than the others jumped wildly and out of control, mistimed his jump.

My problem is consistency. MLS and in general CONCACAF officiating is constantly off the mark. Just garbage.

[giambac]

are you sure the ref called the tug, or did he call the handball? I think we all need to know what the ref EXACTLY called.

James did tug at him, but if the ref called the handball......what then?? excuse the ref b/c he blew one call, but missed another??

The refs need ACCOUNTABILITY!!!

I really don't care what he called. Whether it was the tug or a handball.

I'm a TFC supporter and I wanted them to, win. There was definelty a foul against James. Whether the ref called it a jersey pull or mistakenly a handbal,l I don't care. Bottom line there was a foul.

[giambac]

Agreed. You do NOT affect the outcome of a match with a penalty, in a situation THAT contentious.

The ref fucked up. James did too, but the ref screwed up more. When you're in a situation where you need freeze-frame looks to figure out if one side hand balled it before the other side pulled him down - you retake the damn kick.

Nothing "homer" about that.

- Scott


Give it a rest. week after week you come up with excuses. Yopu don't make sense. James screwed up but the ref screwed up more???? What the hell does that mean?

If James didn't pull the player down from his jersey there wouldn't have been a call.

And if Carver didn't bring a rookie in so late in the game with the game and season on the line there wouldn't have been a penalty and we wouldn't be debating this issue. Also we would now be talking about our next game and our playoff cahnces. But you can kiss this goodbye. Thanks Carver:mad:

[Azerban]

this thread is much better logged in

[Fushida]

What pisses me off more is that Carver and the fans are blaming the ref. I Blame bonehead Carver. Why in the FUck did he bring in a rookie so late in the game. He brought in James, a rookie with the game, with the season on the line in the 88th minute. Well the rookie CHOKED and had a MENTAL Lapse. Carver shouldn't have brought him in at that time. His decision once again caused us the game and now the season. Carve rshould have stuck with the veterans with the season on the line.

So you don't advocate protecting the lead in an away game by putting on the only other defender we have for a tired striker who's played 88 minutes?

If that's how the world runs... then I blame Carver too for not being able to see into the future. I blame Carver for subbing on an extra defender to preserve a lead. Because damn Carver should have known rookies always choke and we should never play them.


How many times have we had mental lapses so late in a agame and in extra time? A coach ha sto know his players late in the season. I guess ours doesn't .



So you're saying we shouldn't use James anymore now that we "know" he'll choke within a few minutes of coming on? Yea, like Carver should "know" who will screw up in a game.

I see you really hate Carver. Well giambac, maybe your expectations are just too high.

[BigLou]

Its funny....I cant seem to see any of giambac posts.....It feels so good

[Shakes McQueen]

So you are just making this up or is this your own theory.....Do you have any proof that is why the penalty was called or are you just trying to continue to stir up shit....

Continue to stir up shit? I'm partaking in the discussion, and I'm usually quite cordial and friendly until someone decides to get smug and in my face about something.

Anyway, werewolf already answered your question. I tend not to make things up.

- Scott

[Juanito]

It wouldn't be very good for TFC if Carver walks out. The team needs a little bit of stability. If the coaching position becomes a revolving door, we will never develop a "TFC football philosophy" and that isn't good for the players because they have to start all over again. If we have a sound football philosophy, you can go find players that will fit into the system and develop a training regiment accordingly.

This league isn't designed to attract BIG names and coaches that can instantly turn a team from mediocrity to greatness. We have to develop this team smartly and have a coach for the long-haul is a good start.

That is why I believe that Carver needs to stay, at least for another year. Once the system is there, we can find someone else that can take it to the next level. My only concern with Carver is that he has a hard-on with the Brits, I can understand why, but he shouldn't count out the Americas for that DP either. A good player is a good player.

[Pachuco]

1-2 goals per game is pretty standard in football, with relatively evenly matched teams. And we were at least "even" (if not at a disadvantage) with Dallas yesterday, given the big names that were missing from our side.

I consider fighting back from one down to score two, to be no small feat for our depleted squad.

It's our backline that needs to get better, at this point. The forward line have been doing their job as of late.

- Scott

I'm not trolling your posts, but every single time I read a post on this board that I think is pure bullshit it happens to be you posting it (except for RBP_Brantford who's quite good at bullshitting too).

Let's take this post for example, Nate Dogg says we need to score more goals because we've been scoring maybe 1 or 2 per game. It's actually more like 1 per game. Your response is that that's quite normal in football. Well you obviously failed to look up the "goals for" stat in MLS 2008. We are second from the bottom, and that team in the bottom has a better goals against average then us. Therefore, Nate is right, we don't score enough goals, and it's crazy that you would even try to argue that.

[Pachuco]

Agreed. You do NOT affect the outcome of a match with a penalty, in a situation THAT contentious.

The ref fucked up. James did too, but the ref screwed up more. When you're in a situation where you need freeze-frame looks to figure out if one side hand balled it before the other side pulled him down - you retake the damn kick.

Nothing "homer" about that.

- Scott

I don't understand your argument. It was a freeking foul, rules are rules. Who gives a shit if another ref in another game missed a foul that should've gone to our advantage? the point is, it was a foul, there is no denying that. You have people who support TFC as much as you do agreeing that it was a freeking foul. Maybe you should admit that you are probably being quite biased in your opinion. To say that refs shouldn't make the right call if it is going to affect the outcome of a game is quite ridicolous.

Is the refing inconsistent in the MLS? yes, it's quite shit. But in this particular case, the ref made the right call, and really, that's all that matters.

[stretchthetruth]

Carver is a joke and so are all the homers in this forum.

Listen we all want TFC to win and make the playoffs but call a spade a spade.

It was definetly a foul. Tugging and pulling a player down from his jersey is a foul so give the ref credit for making the tough call. He showed he had guts.

homers? this is a supporters forum, what the fuck are you if you arent a 'homer'??? the ref had guts? made the correct call? now i know for sure you come on here to stir up shit... are you a troll, or just an asshole?

[Roogsy]

If we are all homers in this forum Giambac, why is it that when you got banned from this place, you practically begged to come back?

Keep it up and you won't be back again.

[CretanBull]

Give it a rest.

Hahahahahahahaha!

[Dirk Diggler]

I'm not trolling your posts, but every single time I read a post on this board that I think is pure bullshit it happens to be you posting it (except for RBP_Brantford who's quite good at bullshitting too).

Let's take this post for example, Nate Dogg says we need to score more goals because we've been scoring maybe 1 or 2 per game. It's actually more like 1 per game. Your response is that that's quite normal in football. Well you obviously failed to look up the "goals for" stat in MLS 2008. We are second from the bottom, and that team in the bottom has a better goals against average then us. Therefore, Nate is right, we don't score enough goals, and it's crazy that you would even try to argue that.

I completely agree with everything in this post.

[Shakes McQueen]

I'm not trolling your posts, but every single time I read a post on this board that I think is pure bullshit it happens to be you posting it (except for RBP_Brantford who's quite good at bullshitting too).

Let's take this post for example, Nate Dogg says we need to score more goals because we've been scoring maybe 1 or 2 per game. It's actually more like 1 per game. Your response is that that's quite normal in football. Well you obviously failed to look up the "goals for" stat in MLS 2008. We are second from the bottom, and that team in the bottom has a better goals against average then us. Therefore, Nate is right, we don't score enough goals, and it's crazy that you would even try to argue that.

Hey, I got those statistics you were talking about:


TEAM RECORD GOALS AVG
Los Angeles Galaxy 8-12-8 53 1.89
Columbus Crew 16-6-6 48 1.71
FC Dallas 8-9-11 42 1.50
Colorado Rapids 10-14-4 41 1.46
D.C. United 10-14-4 41 1.46
Houston Dynamo 11-5-11 39 1.44
Chivas USA 12-10-6 38 1.36
New England Revolution 12-9-7 38 1.36
Chicago Fire 12-9-7 37 1.32
New York Red Bulls 9-10-9 37 1.32
Real Salt Lake 9-10-9 36 1.29
Kansas City Wizards 9-10-9 31 1.11
Toronto FC 8-12-8 31 1.11
San Jose Earthquakes 7-11-9 27 1.00 I don't mean to shit on your parade of righteousness here, but you might notice that the average "goals for", for every club on this list, falls between ONE AND TWO GOALS PER GAME.

You're right to state we are second from the bottom, except my point wasn't that our GFA was acceptable. My exact statements were that two goals from a match in which we were missing our best players, was acceptable. Oh, and I also said 1-2 goals per game was pretty standard in football. I never even implied the amount of goals per game we've been getting all season was fine.

I may have originally failed to look up these stats. But you obviously failed to read them.

Anything else?

EDIT: It won't let me display the stats table properly. The first set of numbers is the team's record, followed by the number of goals for the season, followed by the average number of goal's per game. The highest GPG is 1.89, the lowest is 1.00.

- Scott

[Roogsy]

Don't let facts and logic get in the way of the Carver-hating dude.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Hey, I got those statistics you were talking about:



I don't mean to shit on your parade of righteousness here, but you might notice that the average "goals for", for every club on this list, falls between ONE AND TWO GOALS PER GAME.

You're right to state we are second from the bottom, except my point wasn't that our GFA was acceptable. My exact statements were that two goals from a match in which we were missing our best players, was acceptable. Oh, and I also said 1-2 goals per game was pretty standard in football. I never even implied the amount of goals per game we've been getting all season was fine.

I may have originally failed to look up these stats. But you obviously failed to read them.

Anything else?

- Scott
:iagree::party:

[Shakes McQueen]

Don't let facts and logic get in the way of the Carver-hating dude.

Dude, I can't help it. When people start to get smug on me, and tell me I'm "crazy" to say things that are supported by empirical evidence... I get bitchy. :D

- Scott

[Rawkus_420]

I streamed the game online, that was the worst call ever. My friend and I thought , that maybe this was just the league pushing the button on the Canadian team, to ensure our playoff hopes were firther diminished. I really don't think that the league would want a second year Canadian team in the playoffs....maybe there is some bullshit going on... I hope Montreal and Vancouver join us soon......fuck it is frustrtating.

Oh and Marvells last 3 games have been huge, I love the fact he's showing offense, he can be so difficult to handle and now his confidence is rising.....try and sign him now before he gets scopped up in Europe somewhere.

[Keegan]

Ok guys.
It. Was. A. Foul!

GET OVER IT! James is retarded, not the ref. Tugging a guy at the 18 yard box for a header? Moronic! Serioux is a good player I know but no way he scores on a highly contested header from just under 18 yards! At most he flicks it on. But no James has to give them a free goal.

[stretchthetruth]

Ok guys.
It. Was. A. Foul!

GET OVER IT! James is retarded, not the ref. Tugging a guy at the 18 yard box for a header? Moronic! Serioux is a good player I know but no way he scores on a highly contested header from just under 18 yards! At most he flicks it on. But no James has to give them a free goal.

according to various sources, including kenny cooper, it wasnt the tug that was called, it was the handball - that was actually serioux...

[Shakes McQueen]

according to various sources, including kenny cooper, it wasnt the tug that was called, it was the handball - that was actually serioux...

Yes, and if the handball occurred "first", then no... the ref fucked up.

- Scott

[colman1860]

I Blame bonehead Carver.

SURPRISE!!!:eek:

[Pachuco]

I streamed the game online, that was the worst call ever. My friend and I thought , that maybe this was just the league pushing the button on the Canadian team, to ensure our playoff hopes were firther diminished. I really don't think that the league would want a second year Canadian team in the playoffs....maybe there is some bullshit going on... I hope Montreal and Vancouver join us soon......fuck it is frustrtating.

Oh and Marvells last 3 games have been huge, I love the fact he's showing offense, he can be so difficult to handle and now his confidence is rising.....try and sign him now before he gets scopped up in Europe somewhere.

Right, it's all a conspiracy theory. :rolleyes:

Fuck MLS (who payed the ref)
Fuck the ref (Who payed Julius James to give up a penalty at the end of the game)

fuck everyone, except TFC of course, because they are just victims of a conspiracy theory and don't deserve to be in last place.

[Pachuco]

according to various sources, including kenny cooper, it wasnt the tug that was called, it was the handball - that was actually serioux...

Right, that's why the ref even motioned that somebody was pulled down in the box as he was calling the penalty.

According to sources, including John Carver, the ref payed Julius James to pull down Serioux at the end of the game.

[giambac]

If we are all homers in this forum Giambac, why is it that when you got banned from this place, you practically begged to come back?

Keep it up and you won't be back again.

Roogsy,

my point is this,

week after week when TFC loses people come on here and complain about either the refs or the league. All I'm saying is that if we put our biase aside then people would have to admit that James committed a foul. The ref made the correct call. If the ref made a similar call for TFC then these same people on this forum who are now complaining would be saying it was the correct call. That is the reason I called them Homer's, We are all supporters but for crying out loud people should stop with all the excuses and conspiracy theories. Bottom line we played well yesterday and it could have gone either way. a mental lapse by a rookie who I believe shouldn't have been brought into the game in the 88th minute cost us the game and our season. PERIOD.

[Roogsy]

Your point is certainly valid. And does make sense. It would carry more weight if you didn't insist on taking a dig at people who disagree with you by calling them "homers".

Was the call right? Well...technically no. The referee called a "handball" as has been reported by several players and media and therefore the ref made a mistake.

Was there a foul by James in the box? Yes. If you see my post previously and several other posts by others, we all think James is an idiot for basically manhandling Serioux in the box.

However, as you may or may not know, a ref is not supposed to allow a free kick to be taken while there is pushing, shoving and grabbing in the box (especially when it's BOTH sides). He should have either a) not allowed the FK before there was less of that in the box or b) have the free kick re-taken.

The answer in this instance was not a PK in favour of Dallas because a) it was not a Toronto handball and b) the pushing and shoving was happening continuously in the box.

That game should have been a Toronto win. A poor call like that in the final minutes of play is unconsionable.

As for whether a rookie should have been brought in the game at the final minute...either James is a member of the team or not. Either he is a capable defender or not. To disagree with the strategy of bringing on a defender while defending a 1 goal lead just because it didn't work out I think is in bad faith on your part because we KNOW you and had he not brought on a defender and then Dallas scored, you would have been lambasting Carver for the exact opposite reason.

[nascarguy]

If we are all homers in this forum Giambac, why is it that when you got banned from this place, you practically begged to come back?

Keep it up and you won't be back again.


thank you roogsy. this goes out to all the members stop the name calling. if you want to do name calling go to big soccer.

[Blizzard]

Your point is certainly valid. And does make sense. It would carry more weight if you didn't insist on taking a dig at people who disagree with you by calling them "homers".

Was the call right? Well...technically no. The referee called a "handball" as has been reported by several players and media and therefore the ref made a mistake.

Was there a foul by James in the box? Yes. If you see my post previously and several other posts by others, we all think James is an idiot for basically manhandling Serioux in the box.

However, as you may or may not know, a ref is not supposed to allow a free kick to be taken while there is pushing, shoving and grabbing in the box (especially when it's BOTH sides). He should have either a) not allowed the FK before there was less of that in the box or b) have the free kick re-taken.

The answer in this instance was not a PK in favour of Dallas because a) it was not a Toronto handball and b) the pushing and shoving was happening continuously in the box.

That game should have been a Toronto win. A poor call like that in the final minutes of play is unconsionable.

As for whether a rookie should have been brought in the game at the final minute...either James is a member of the team or not. Either he is a capable defender or not. To disagree with the strategy of bringing on a defender while defending a 1 goal lead just because it didn't work out I think is in bad faith on your part because we KNOW you and had he not brought on a defender and then Dallas scored, you would have been lambasting Carver for the exact opposite reason.

Great post! Putting in James for the finale made sense. During the goal celebration, Barrett signalled the bench that he needed to come out so putting in a defender at that pont is an absolute no-brainer for any coach/manager.

Why James would be so undisciplined as to let himself act like a total bloody idiot out there is something else entirely. What was that man thinking?

[giambac]

Great post! Putting in James for the finale made sense. During the goal celebration, Barrett signalled the bench that he needed to come out so putting in a defender at that pont is an absolute no-brainer for any coach/manager.

Why James would be so undisciplined as to let himself act like a total bloody idiot out there is something else entirely. What was that man thinking?
Bringing in a defender in the 88th minute when then team is up by a goal is the correct decision. First it gives you an extra defender and secondly it kills some time. The mistake was that the defender shouldn't have been a rookie when the season was on the line. That's my beef. Actually, because the bench was short due to the international callups all Carver had to due was ask Barrett or Rickets or Dichio (or 2 of the 30) just to play back and not cross the centre line. No problem with dropping some of your more experienced forwards back in the dying minutes of the game. At least you know with them they wouldn't buckle under pressure as James did.

[Roogsy]

I would seriously like to know who you would have brought on instead.

Seriously...you are the epitome of an arm-chair quarterback. I don't see anybody with real football intuition questioning Carver's move except you. You are just bent on looking for any excuse to criticize the man, even if it's extremely weak like it is in this case, which is exactly why you have so little credibility.

[Shakes McQueen]

Bringing in a defender in the 88th minute when then team is up by a goal is the correct decision. First it gives you an extra defender and secondly it kills some time. The mistake was that the defender shouldn't have been a rookie when the season was on the line. That's my beef. Actually, because the bench was short due to the international callups all Carver had to due was ask Barrett or Rickets or Dichio (or 2 of the 30) just to play back and not cross the centre line. No problem with dropping some of your more experienced forwards back in the dying minutes of the game. At least you know with them they wouldn't buckle under pressure as James did.

I'm with Roogsy. You and I both know that if Carver told Barrett to fall back, and then we got scored on because of a lack of defending ability by Barrett, you would be all over Carver for month for not subbing in a defender when we needed to defend a lead.

Carver made the right decision to bring in another defender, rookie or not. He should know what constitutes a foul, and what doesn't - James has started a bunch of games for us this season. It would be equally, if not more risky, to ask a forward to fall back and play out of their element in that situation.

- Scott

[giambac]

I'm with Roogsy. You and I both know that if Carver told Barrett to fall back, and then we got scored on because of a lack of defending ability by Barrett, you would be all over Carver for month for not subbing in a defender when we needed to defend a lead.

Carver made the right decision to bring in another defender, rookie or not. He should know what constitutes a foul, and what doesn't - James has started a bunch of games for us this season. It would be equally, if not more risky, to ask a forward to fall back and play out of their element in that situation.

- Scott

No one will ever kinow for sure if the outcome would have been different if Carver had asked Barrett or Dichio to hold back. All w eknow is that our season is now done.

[Roogsy]

No one will ever kinow for sure if the outcome would have been different if Carver had asked Barrett or Dichio to hold back. All w eknow is that our season is now done.

I do know that if they would have scored had James not subbed on you would still be all over Carver. I guarantee that.

Apparently you don't believe in player accountability.

[CretanBull]

... all Carver had to due was ask Barrett or Rickets or Dichio (or 2 of the 30) just to play back and not cross the centre line.

Ricketts had already been subbed off, Dichio was playing back and subbing Barrett out for a defender - the best one we had available - was the right move. We got screwed in the 90th minute by a bad call, there was absolutely nothing tactically wrong with how Carver lead the team.

[Roogsy]

Incredible how even the RIGHT move has to be defended...:rolleyes:

[Shakes McQueen]

No one will ever kinow for sure if the outcome would have been different if Carver had asked Barrett or Dichio to hold back. All w eknow is that our season is now done.

But we did know that subbing James in WOULD lead to a goal?

Hindsight is always nice. Jumping on Carver because he didn't choose Option B, knowing what Plan A led to, is ridiculous.

He made the right tactical decision.

- Scott

[stretchthetruth]

Right, that's why the ref even motioned that somebody was pulled down in the box as he was calling the penalty.

According to sources, including John Carver, the ref payed Julius James to pull down Serioux at the end of the game.

not to acknowledge your ridiculous point, but i didnt make that up... read today's news articles for the same information...

[shaunsas]

spread the word and tell everyone to email into the mls feedback at this email.

feedback@mlsnet.com

maybe a few thousand pissed off emails about how terrible the refs are will get some attention.

if a call like that happened in english premier league that ref would never have a job again. how many times have ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE FUCKING REFS cost TFC points? It's bad enough every other shot goes through Sutton's legs.

it's completely not acceptable and they wonder why some people want to drink before watching garbage like that.

[jloome]

You're all right, all wrong. Truth's in the middle, as usual.

1) It was a clear foul. But without knowing what the Ref actually called, we don't know if he made the right call or not. It seems irrelevant to me, as I was raised to be fair. We all saw the foul. They got a penalty.

2) We all know MLS refs suck. Without being able to answer what the call was, we can't say for sure whether their suckiness influenced the outcome. But again, on a purely moral basis, it doesn't matter. James fouled him, terribly.

3) It is fair to argue that maybe James buckled under the pressure and Carver should have known that might happen. But it is also fair to argue that he was the only defender left and Carver DID drop Barrett and Dichio back as well. The entire team was well into our half.

4) It is technically correct that most teams average under 2 goals per game in soccer (in fact, if I recall the average for any league is usually 1.6-to-1.8 goals per game). It is irrelevant as to whether TFC was scoring enough. Our goals per game position indicates we were not. However, conversely, it is fair to note that in games where we score two, we're more likely to have a positive result (inanely obvious, but fair).

Jesus, it's like the season's already over. People have nothing to do but piss away their time arguing for no reason, when it's quite obvious that you all have valid points. Instead, this is a battle of semantics.

Anybody got predictions for the Chicago game? Two for Barrett!

[rocker]

i predict we'll have a bullshit penalty kick called against us on saturday ;)

[Roogsy]

I'd buy the whole "fairness" thing Jloome if we weren't at the short end of that stick constantly. Yes...James fouled Serioux...for sure. But if the ref had stopped the FK to begin with, would we be discussing this?

As for Barrett...can you believe Dichio is STILL the leading scorer for TFC this year? If Barrett puts one in...he ties him. But I think that speaks volumes about the impact Dichio has on this team as well as the difficulty Toronto has had in finding an alternative goal scorer on this team. But going into next season, do you think a pairing of Dichio and Barrett would work?

[Roogsy]

i predict we'll have a bullshit penalty kick called against us on saturday ;)

:rofl:

[jloome]

I'd buy the whole "fairness" thing Jloome if we weren't at the short end of that stick constantly. Yes...James fouled Serioux...for sure. But if the ref had stopped the FK to begin with, would we be discussing this?

As for Barrett...can you believe Dichio is STILL the leading scorer for TFC this year? If Barrett puts one in...he ties him. But I think that speaks volumes about the impact Dichio has on this team as well as the difficulty Toronto has had in finding an alternative goal scorer on this team. But going into next season, do you think a pairing of Dichio and Barrett would work?

AS for Rocker's prediction, we're talking about MLS officiating. It's 50/50 at best. Them's pretty good odds.

As for Barrett and Dichio, Danny D is definitley slowing down, and the turf sure ain't helping. I suppose if they practise all week on grass it'll save his joints somewhat and his understanding with Barrett seemed good.

I think Barrett will flourish from Carver's technical work. Carver was a field coach in England and Alan Shearer was one of his fans, so it's likely you'll see them work heavily on Barrett's touch -- both his first touch and his finish, both of which are a bit heavy. Other than that he already has the skills; it's not like he takes low-percentage chances, he's genuinely dangerous. He just needs to keep improving the finish.

He's scored progressively more goals in each year of his career. Given that he's only 23, I can see him being a consistent in-the-teens scorer at this level by age 25 or 26. I think that's why they've signed him to the long-term deal; he just has hitches to work out and, for whatever reason, that wasn't happening in Chicago: just look at the hydration issue.

[Shakes McQueen]

AS for Rocker's prediction, we're talking about MLS officiating. It's 50/50 at best. Them's pretty good odds.

As for Barrett and Dichio, Danny D is definitley slowing down, and the turf sure ain't helping. I suppose if they practise all week on grass it'll save his joints somewhat and his understanding with Barrett seemed good.

I think Barrett will flourish from Carver's technical work. Carver was a field coach in England and Alan Shearer was one of his fans, so it's likely you'll see them work heavily on Barrett's touch -- both his first touch and his finish, both of which are a bit heavy. Other than that he already has the skills; it's not like he takes low-percentage chances, he's genuinely dangerous. He just needs to keep improving the finish.

He's scored progressively more goals in each year of his career. Given that he's only 23, I can see him being a consistent in-the-teens scorer at this level by age 25 or 26. I think that's why they've signed him to the long-term deal; he just has hitches to work out and, for whatever reason, that wasn't happening in Chicago: just look at the hydration issue.

Mark my words, Barrett will be DANGEROUS in a year or so.

Give him an entire off-season with Winsper (what is the fitness regiment in Chicago? pie eating contests?), and some time with Carver to work on his touch, and he will be a top scorer in this league.

He already exhibits pretty impressive football IQ and vision, and you can already see his touch and power starting to come under control in the time he's been here.

Dichio's days are numbered at this point, I think. I doubt he will ever fully recover from his conussion, and you can tell that his joints are wearing down. All we can hope, is that he stays long enough for his work ethic, intelligence with the ball, and heart rub off on the rest of the team.

And when he is done, he better be a coach in some capacity.

- Scott

[Brooker]

i can only recall TFC ever being awarded a penatly kick two times. Colin Samuel in Salt Lake and Guevara at BMO.... am i missing one?

now that the season is basically over.... thats like 1 PK a year. which is fine except the fact that it seems they call one against us once a month.

ahhhhhhh let's just get a DP striker so that we can survive all these bullshit calls.

and shit people please stop quoting gambiac.... my ignore has been breached!!!!

[romburgundy]

He's leaving because the officiating is only consistent in the way that it's absolutely atrocious game in and game out. The DP thing may be an excuse, but it's obvious what the number one thing that pisses him off is. My hope is that he shits all over the league on his way out, calling people out publicly is the only way anything is ever going to change. Every single game, week by week, we get fucked. We can go two years without getting a single PK at home, and yet shit like that gets called? I wouldn't blame him if he saw the last two games through, packed his fucking bags and left.

Carver is not going anywhere. He started something here and he'll stick around until his Job is done. That's just the kind of coach he is. At least that's what kind of coach I think he is.

[romburgundy]

i can only recall TFC ever being awarded a penatly kick two times. Colin Samuel in Salt Lake and Guevara at BMO.... am i missing one?

now that the season is basically over.... thats like 1 PK a year. which is fine except the fact that it seems they call one against us once a month.

ahhhhhhh let's just get a DP striker so that we can survive all these bullshit calls.

and shit people please stop quoting gambiac.... my ignore has been breached!!!!

I can only think one more. I'm hazy on who got it but I believe Samuel taking in Columbus at the season opener. With Cunny standing hands at waste shaking his head when Samuel missed.

[stretchthetruth]

I think Samuel scored in Salt Lake, and was stopped in Columbus - as well as Guevara at BMO, for 3.....?

[CretanBull]

Carver is not going anywhere. He started something here and he'll stick around until his Job is done. That's just the kind of coach he is. At least that's what kind of coach I think he is.

I think that's probably true - and I like him and want him to stay - but honestly, if Newcastle offer to more than qudruple his current salary I wouldn't resent him for taking the Geordie job.