Detroit in MLS. Whaddya Think?

[Redcoe15]

I came across this blog just now. The blogger makes a case to bring an MLS team to Detroit:

http://lifein118.blogspot.com/2008/10/bring-mls-to-detroit.html

Now, I don't know how much of a chance they got but IMO I think Detroit could support an MLS team better than half of the existing cities right now (I'm lookin' at YOU, Columbus!). And just think of the intensity a Toronto-Detroit derby could bring. :devil:

Maybe I'm biased, but I would love to see it happen. Wouldn't you? :D

[Lucky Strike]

Better than Columbus? Most likely, but they couldn't sell out playoff games for the Cup-winning Wings so what does that tell you?

[TFCREDNWHITE]

Detroit is shit! it would be a BAD BAD move...

[Billy the kid]

I don't think anybody is against Detroit, I just don't think anyone from there has put in a bid. The blogger say Garber should wake up and realize how great the city would be, but is he supposed go there and put together an ownership group himself?

[Bluenose13]

4 hour road trip sounds like a great idea.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

in the words of en vogue

"never gonna get it, never gonna get it, never gonna get it, never gonna get it, never gonna get it never gonna get it, never gonna get it, never get it"

Too many other better choices at this point, also, its Detroit

[Roogsy]

So many better options...Detroit is suffering the most of all the big cities during this US crisis. Shoot...they were suffering when people thought everything was going hunky-dory!

[canadian_bhoy]

The closer it is for me to get to an away game the better. I'm all for a team in Detroit!

[Cambridge_Red]

Body armour - Check
Gun - Check
Bullet Proof Windows - Check
Ticket - Check

Ok I am ready for a Detroit road trip...

[Bluenose13]

Body armour - Check
Gun - Check
Bullet Proof Windows - Check
Ticket - Check

Ok I am ready for a Detroit road trip...It's all about proper preparation :D

[Wagner]

TFC shows that MLS needs to be "Downtown"
not in the 'burbs.

Downtown Detroit doesn't seem like a good idea for a 25,000 SSS.

[GeorgeB]

TFC shows that MLS needs to be "Downtown"
not in the 'burbs.

Downtown Detroit doesn't seem like a good idea for a 25,000 SSS.why not ?the NFL,MLB and NHL teams all play downtown and draw very well.plus there is alot of available land downtown(most of it owned by Mr.Ilitch),they could call it Little Ceasars Park LOL

[AL-MO]

4 hour road trip sounds like a great idea.

Are you counting the trip through the metal detectors?

[Sonny Cheeba]

i'm starting to not give a fuck who gets teams anymore. i'm not a fan of the expansion process. hurry up already.

[werewolf]

why not ?the NFL,MLB and NHL teams all play downtown and draw very well.plus there is alot of available land downtown(most of it owned by Mr.Ilitch),they could call it Little Ceasars Park LOL

The Lions were third last in attendance last year, 61000 average in a 65000 seat stadium. and as mentioned, the Red Wings have playoff games that haven't sold out, in what is supposed to be "Hockeytown".

[Cashcleaner]

No way. Seriously, the city is hemorrhaging people and jobs left, right, and centre.

[james]

Detroit for Soccer i dont know, might work. But Detroit has been sufferring for years now, city seems to be on the down hill since the 80's and still going down. Population has been decreassing and so have jobs. I herd Detroit Red Wings havent been selling all there tickets out lately is due to tickets costing to much. Tho there is a big population in Detroit not that many people have the money to spend on exspensive tickets. I think the tigers just do average on sales in baseball and the Lions do below average on tickets sales compared to other NFL teams do and i believe they are actually losing money these days, tho what do they exspect, they have been shit for a long time now. I think the Pistons do quite well tho on selling tickets.

But all these teams have been around for a long time, im sure if Detroit was in the shape it is now back when all these teams first started they may have thought twice before giving them pro teams!

[Roogsy]

i'm starting to not give a fuck who gets teams anymore. i'm not a fan of the expansion process. hurry up already.

I guess now that we don't have to wait for our own team who cares if the league screws up the rest of the process? :noidea:

[james]

tho St.Louis really aint any better then Detroit, in fact i think they even worse off as far as city decay and all and yet they in the running for a new MLS team.

big cities with highest crime in USA ranking for 2006:
1# St Louis
2# Detroit

Highest murder rate per population for 2006:
1# Detroit (433 murders)
5# St. Louis (131 murders)


Decay city population:
Detrotoit population today 916,00-------in 1960 was 1,849,000
St.Louis Population today 353,000------in 1960 was 750,000


and just to put it out there for anyones interest comparring it to Toronto
Toronto population today 2,503,000-------in 1960 was 672,000
im sure are crime doesnt even register on the scale in crime comparrison with St.Louis and Detroit and are most murders in a year was 84 i think in 2007 and we got population 3 and 6 times as big.

[Sonny Cheeba]

I guess now that we don't have to wait for our own team who cares if the league screws up the rest of the process? :noidea:

no it's fine. i'm not saying it like that. i don't like the whole "let's bid for a team" i think most of these cities should have a chance to have a team play.. i guess this gives them incentive to actually do something though. i think incentive should be created through promotion and relegation, not who can come up with the nicest stadium and whatnot. i didn't even like the fact that toronto had to make a bid. i don't know. it's just annoying.

if we had an MLS-2 league, then more cities could be included and accomodated. MLS has been set as the top tier of football in North America, an to me it's just basically phasing out USL. sounds like a dickish thing to say, but look at the USL teams making bids.

[nascarguy]

hell why not put a team in hamilton too...lol

[Keystone FC]

TFC shows that MLS needs to be "Downtown"
not in the 'burbs.

Downtown Detroit doesn't seem like a good idea for a 25,000 SSS.

Well, they still have the old Tigers stadium still up and nobody seems to know what to do with it.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=1600+Michigan+Ave+Detroit&t=k&ll=42.331993,-83.06874&spn=0.000968,0.002688

Plus, there is alot of land around the stadium for expansion.
Now, I can't see Detroit getting a club (no owner has even mentioned any interest in Detroit), but if they did they could rehash the old 'Corner' and make it a really interesting SSS. Plus, can you imagine the rivally not only with us but with C-Bus as well!

[Blizzard]

Well, they still have the old Tigers stadium still up and nobody seems to know what to do with it.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=1600+Michigan+Ave+Detroit&t=k&ll=42.331993,-83.06874&spn=0.000968,0.002688

Plus, there is alot of land around the stadium for expansion.
Now, I can't see Detroit getting a club (no owner has even mentioned any interest in Detroit), but if they did they could rehash the old 'Corner' and make it a really interesting SSS. Plus, can you imagine the rivally not only with us but with C-Bus as well!

An interesting thought but Detroit is a helluva mess especially now that domestic auto production from the Big Three is tanking.

I would have major concerns about starting up any new sports venture in that city right now or in the near future.

Heck, even the Red Wings are seeing the effects of the massive economic decline of the region.

B

[Blizzard]

tho St.Louis really aint any better then Detroit, in fact i think they even worse off as far as city decay and all and yet they in the running for a new MLS team.

big cities with highest crime in USA ranking for 2006:
1# St Louis
2# Detroit

Highest murder rate per population for 2006:
1# Detroit (433 murders)
5# St. Louis (131 murders)


Decay city population:
Detrotoit population today 916,00-------in 1960 was 1,849,000
St.Louis Population today 353,000------in 1960 was 750,000


and just to put it out there for anyones interest comparring it to Toronto
Toronto population today 2,503,000-------in 1960 was 672,000
im sure are crime doesnt even register on the scale in crime comparrison with St.Louis and Detroit and are most murders in a year was 84 i think in 2007 and we got population 3 and 6 times as big.

Yes, as I've written previous, Detroit is a city in decline but I think the population numbers you list have to be put into context.

The population of the Metro Detroit area is 5.4 million. One has to take into account how, as the inner city declined, the suburbs blossomed.

The Greater St. Louis Area should be put in this context as well. It is 2.8 million. The inner city has a lower population now than it had over 100 years ago (an incredible occurance) but again as the inner city declined the suburbs grew.

We can't ignore those numbers just as we can't forget that the GTA is in the 5 million range.

That said, I don't want to see MLS in either of those cities. It just doesn't make sense to me.

B

[twistedchinaman]

in the words of en vogue

"never gonna get it, never gonna get it, never gonna get it, never gonna get it, never gonna get it never gonna get it, never gonna get it, never get it"

Too many other better choices at this point, also, its Detroit

+1'd.

Right now Michigan is in no state for anything, as a lot of other people have said. If the Wings are struggling, I doubt whatever team that's starting up in ANY sport could have much success.

There be no money in that area -- and a team needs money. So...yeah.

[stugautz]

There's better options out there. As much as I'd like the 401 Derby, it should not happen.

[Blizzard]

There's better options out there. As much as I'd like the 401 Derby, it should not happen.

Maybe we can agree to support their bid if they agree to keep taking our garbage! :p

[Axeman]

Alright Detroit, nothing like a road trip to one of the most violent gang-ridden cities in NA. Go MLS! What about East-St. Louis next?

[Keystone FC]

Alright Detroit, nothing like a road trip to one of the most violent gang-ridden cities in NA. Go MLS! What about East-St. Louis next?


Well, technically Collinsville, IL (where they are to put the St. Louis franchise's SSS) is right next to East St. Louis.:eek:

[Canadian Blue]

The Canadian that just bought Derby County has already stated that he will be taking the team ona tour of Detroit

[james]

The Canadian that just bought Derby County has already stated that he will be taking the team ona tour of Detroit

at what stadium? and who are they gonna play?

[Detroit_TFC]

There's been various grassroots efforts to promote getting a team but that means nothing until a creditable ownership group steps forward.

Detroit's a large media market so I'm sure MLS wouldn't mind getting a team here. If Mike Ilitch decided tomorrow he wants to build a stadium and get a team, MLS would jump at it. Unfortunately nobody like that is stepping forward and probably won't in this economy.

I think it's much more likely that we'll get an USL-1 or -2 team in the next 5-10 years. I understand that some people in USL have been talking to some people locally about making that happen.

[Detroit_TFC]

at what stadium? and who are they gonna play?

Both U of M and Michigan State have new dedicated soccer fields. They're not large (seating for 2500 or so) and there are some other venues in the area that can seat about the same. That should be enough - how many people do you think want to see Derby? As for oppenents, maybe they'll do a exhibition with the Crew (the Crew comes to Detroit pretty much every year for a exhibition game against the local PDL team), depending on what time of year it happens.

[nascarguy]

they could put a mls field with a min 20,000 seat at fuller park there is alot of land there
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

but 1st the crew and toronto would have to give the ok .

I can not see toronto say no to this team but the crew who is having trouble selling ticket could say no

what would you say to having the crew move up there

[james]

they could put a mls field with a min 20,000 seat at fuller park there is alot of land there
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

but 1st the crew and toronto would have to give the ok .

I can not see toronto say no to this team but the crew who is having trouble selling ticket could say no

what would you say to having the crew move up there

Toronto and Columbus wouldn't have to do anything. If some rich Billionaire came along and said i want to buy a team in Detroit the only ones that have to give him the "ok" is the MLS head office.

Only thing close to that is when a team trys to join a league in a city that already has a pro team. What happens is the new team often has to pay some royalties to the current team in the city for taking there territory. Thats what happened in NHL with Hamilton trying to get a team because it was within somethin like 80km radius. But in this case Detroit is way out on its own, way out side of Columbus and Toronto area, and Detroit dont have a current MLS team in that city!

[profit89]

Bad idea.

[s2cazz]

+1'd.

Right now Michigan is in no state for anything, as a lot of other people have said. If the Wings are struggling, I doubt whatever team that's starting up in ANY sport could have much success.

There be no money in that area -- and a team needs money. So...yeah.
I agree... I live across the border in windsor... Detroit is a big hockey town and they can't even sell the wings games out!... not only that there is no market for soccer in detroit... not enough"Bling Bling" to it like basket ball or Football... you would be lucky to sell 3000 seats in detroit... If you do sell more than 300 seats its because it picks up popularity with the middle eastern crowd.... in which case they are better off in the burbs....

[s2cazz]

It would be great if Detroit did get a MLS team... I would buy season tix and show up to every game in full TFC reds!!!!

[Redcoe15]

Bumped, for this bit of news on the eve of tonight's matches at Ford Field.

Toronto based Silverdome owner submits bid for an MLS expansion team in Detroit (http://www.mlive.com/soccer/index.ssf/2011/06/with_eyes_on_detroit_silverdome_owners_submit_mls_ expansion_bid.html).

[TFCRegina]

I think many people will be shot after they add the MLS team.

Not because of football related violence or activities.

Just because it's Detroit.

[menefreghista]

I have no idea if this would even work, but I support Detroit getting a team as it means another decent road game to go watch.

[DichioTFC]

Detroit should have a team. Obvious bias here, but there is a passion for soccer in this city that rivals Toronto, NYC, the Pacific Northwest and Boston.

No matter how bad the Detroit economy has gone, the suburbs remained prosperous, and that's where the sports consumers are. Get the guys from the burbs and the growing Mexican population together - it'll be one crazy supporter's section that's for sure.

[kodiakTFC]

Odds of Detriot getting a team before NY2, Atlanta, Florida.. nil.

[menefreghista]

Odds of Detriot getting a team before NY2, Atlanta, Florida.. nil.

I disagree. From the sounds of it, Detroit has someone who wants to front the franchise fee and has a stadium.

Wouldn't that put him ahead of anyone else?

MLS will give a franchise to anyone who can front the franchise fee, has the money to sustain the team and has a decent stadium plan.

[Dreadlocks]

I support Detroit as a re-location destination but not for expansion. The domestic talent pool in the US and Canada is too thin to support more MLS teams.

[kodiakTFC]

I support Detroit as a re-location destination but not for expansion. The domestic talent pool in the US and Canada is too thin to support more MLS teams.

I think MLS has its sights set on 24 teams but I definitely agree with you. I think they need to lax the international spots for awhile, then I'd welcome more teams.

[kodiakTFC]

I disagree. From the sounds of it, Detroit has someone who wants to front the franchise fee and has a stadium.

Wouldn't that put him ahead of anyone else?

MLS will give a franchise to anyone who can front the franchise fee, has the money to sustain the team and has a decent stadium plan.

For the record, I don't have anything against Detriot and any opinion I'd put forth would be ignorant because I just don't know the soccer situation there. I just have a hard time believing Garber will not follow through on NY2.

[sashavukelich]

hell why not put a team in hamilton too...lol



haha as a hamiltonian i'm so deeply wounded to be compared to Detroit, we are WAYYYY better/safer/friendlier than detroit.

Seriously though, Hamilton has produced a number of Canadian internationals, we'd easily sell out a 15k stadium or so. So many of the guys i know in 114 are all from Hamilton.

[DangerRed]

I disagree. From the sounds of it, Detroit has someone who wants to front the franchise fee and has a stadium.

Wouldn't that put him ahead of anyone else?

MLS will give a franchise to anyone who can front the franchise fee, has the money to sustain the team and has a decent stadium plan.

In a rational world, it would. But as the article states, MLS is focused on the next team being based in New York, which will be the Cosmos. So after that (2012 Mtl, 2013 Cosmos), we could see a viable 2014 entry from Detroit.

And if you look at the rather ambitious reno plans the owners have for the Silverdome -- they want to stack a grass-pitch soccer stadium on top of an indoor facility for hockey, other sports and conventions -- they'll need some time. So I'd say the timeline of 2014 makes pretty good sense.

[Beach_Red]

Detroit should have a team. Obvious bias here, but there is a passion for soccer in this city that rivals Toronto, NYC, the Pacific Northwest and Boston.

No matter how bad the Detroit economy has gone, the suburbs remained prosperous, and that's where the sports consumers are. Get the guys from the burbs and the growing Mexican population together - it'll be one crazy supporter's section that's for sure.


Yeah, that's really the key. The suburbs around Detroit are terrific and quite prosperous and aren't going anywhere.

[DichioTFC]

NY2 has everything (staff, fans, SG, stadium) except players. I don't think it will be much longer before they get a team next after Montreal.

But Detroit next? Ahead of Atlanta (just lost another sports franchise) for sure, but maybe tied with Miami.

[DichioTFC]

Btw, owner of the Silverdome (who submitted the MLS Detroit bid) is a guy by the name of Steve Apostolopoulos who is from Toronto and a TFC fan.

[Carts]

I'd rather see RPB Durham get a team! :D

But since MLSE would block that - a Detroit roadie would be goodtimes! :drinking:

Carts...

[menefreghista]

NY2 has everything (staff, fans, SG, stadium) except players. I don't think it will be much longer before they get a team next after Montreal..

I might of missed it, but what stadium? And what ownership?

[ManUtd4ever]

I support the notion of relocating an existing MLS franchise (Columbus would be ideal) to Motown. It would provide a far more profitable and stable fan base, as well as an instant rivalry with the likes of Toronto and Chicago in particular.

[DichioTFC]

I might of missed it, but what stadium? And what ownership?

They'll split use with Red Bull Arena in Harrison. Also there is talk of building a new stadium in Queens - until that happens, they'll use RBA.

There are a few minor owners that MLS have already lined up, but there's no *big* owner (i.e. MLSE, Red Bull, etc) that has stepped up to take majority ownership. I think that's the last hurdle before it happens, but it will happen. Garber is gung-ho about it.


"MLS is aware of the interest from the Apostolopoulos family in securing an MLS team in Detroit," MLS spokesperson Will Kuhns said in an e-mail. "The League maintains its current focus on New York as a possible home for the 20th team."
http://www.mlive.com/soccer/index.ssf/2011/06/with_eyes_on_detroit_silverdome_owners_submit_mls_ expansion_bid.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+mlive_sports+%28MLive.com+Spo rts%29

[DichioTFC]

I support the notion of relocating an existing MLS franchise (Columbus would be ideal) to Motown. It would be provide a far more profitable and stable fan base, as well as an instant rivalry with the likes of Toronto and Chicago in particular.

DC's owners are looking to relocate. Everyone is pretty sure they're going to Baltimore, but it would be interesting to see if they can move the franchise to Michigan. Either that or FC Dallas (they have to be bleeding money since nobody shows up to the games)

[__wowza]

personally, i think this league needs to avoid what happened to the NASL v1.
the league grew too fast, too soon.

it's not so much about whoever has the money, because money runs out. it's about finding a viable market and sustaining that market over the long run. countless teams fold because they change ownership groups, and i'm glad the MLS is taking it slow and steady.

[C.Ronaldo]

Yeah, that's really the key. The suburbs around Detroit are terrific and quite prosperous and aren't going anywhere.

y is this?

i never knew this situation could economically exist

[menefreghista]

There are a few minor owners that MLS have already lined up, but there's no *big* owner (i.e. MLSE, Red Bull, etc) that has stepped up to take majority ownership. I think that's the last hurdle before it happens, but it will happen. Garber is gung-ho about it.

This was exactly my point. They don't really have an owner. Until then they aren't really a viable option.

Whether MLS is going to wait is another story.

[DichioTFC]

y is this?

i never knew this situation could economically exist

1960s race riots in Detroit led to 'white flight', which caused businessmen and businesses to leave the city other than the well established that couldn't leave because of long-term leases with the city (GM, Ford). Managers that now lived in the burbs made place of residence a factor when deciding to hire other employees - led to declining wealth in the major city and increased purchasing power in the burbs.

Imagine Toronto having serious rioting and anarchy (other than the G20) and businesses leaving. They would go to the 905 and the 416 would be in a similar situation.

There are a lot of other factors (google Coleman Young and Kwame Kilpatrick - two hilariously bad / criminal former Detroit mayors) and there have been many mistakes in the city, but that's a bit of synopsis of why its like that.

[lobo]

Well, they still have the old Tigers stadium still up and nobody seems to know what to do with it.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=1600+Michigan+Ave+Detroit&t=k&ll=42.331993,-83.06874&spn=0.000968,0.002688

Plus, there is alot of land around the stadium for expansion.


tiger stadium is gone, torn down ... the only thing left is the wrought iron fencing along michigan and trumbull, and the field including pitching mound ... local corktown residents are actually mowing the grass and using it for local pickup games ... last time i was driving by, we watched some guy on his little riding mower cutting the infield grass while other people played catch in the outfield

and as for available land, detroit is the king of urban blight ... there is miles and miles of inner city blocks that are abandonded and owned by the city. you don't have to go far to find a full city block with only one or two houses standing, the rest are all abandoned and razed, and the same scene repeated every block, its surreal ...some plans call for the abandoned blocks to be used as farm land

white flight, then black flight, now urban blight

[DichioTFC]

This was exactly my point. They don't really have an owner. Until then they aren't really a viable option.

Whether MLS is going to wait is another story.

I don't think a second MLS team in NYC is viable, period. They're dividing a very small pie and NYRB ownership has their own issues - https://soccer.fakesigi.com/new_york_attendance_problems_fact_or_conspiracy.ht ml. I think MLS will force the issue once they convince an owner to come on board.

[kodiakTFC]

DC's owners are looking to relocate. Everyone is pretty sure they're going to Baltimore, but it would be interesting to see if they can move the franchise to Michigan. Either that or FC Dallas (they have to be bleeding money since nobody shows up to the games)

DC United is looking to stay in DC but is willing to relocate to a surrounding area. They don't want to lose their fanbase so they are looking at Baltimore because its close. To be honest, I think it is just political gesturing and they'll never leave DC.

FC Dallas is profitable. They may not make their money selling tickets but with all their fields and the system they've set up, they do quite well.

New York Cosmos or NY2 better not use RBA, they'll just be repeating the same problem and they'll split a marginal fanbase making both teams fail. Red Bull is finally starting to turn around at the gate and Cosmos should only join the league if they won't affect that, ie. being downtown.

[menefreghista]

I don't think a second MLS team in NYC is viable, period. They're dividing a very small pie and NYRB ownership has their own issues - https://soccer.fakesigi.com/new_york_attendance_problems_fact_or_conspiracy.ht ml. I think MLS will force the issue once they convince an owner to come on board.

I agree with you there. No sense adding a 2nd team when the 1st isn't playing to capacity.

It easy to argue that soccer is just not strong enough in North America for multiple teams in one city. Chivas should be relocated too.

[Beach_Red]

1960s race riots in Detroit led to 'white flight', which caused businessmen and businesses to leave the city other than the well established that couldn't leave because of long-term leases with the city (GM, Ford). Managers that now lived in the burbs made place of residence a factor when deciding to hire other employees - led to declining wealth in the major city and increased purchasing power in the burbs.

Imagine Toronto having serious rioting and anarchy (other than the G20) and businesses leaving. They would go to the 905 and the 416 would be in a similar situation.

There are a lot of other factors (google Coleman Young and Kwame Kilpatrick - two hilariously bad / criminal former Detroit mayors) and there have been many mistakes in the city, but that's a bit of synopsis of why its like that.


Oh, Kwame, that's funny stuff.

But in addition to "white flight" the big difference between Detroit and Toronto is amalgamation - all the suburbs around Detroit are seperate entities so the downtown really has no tax base so it has very understaffed infrastructure - everything from schools to police to health inpsectors, basically everything that runs a city. And so it gets worse.

But like those Chrysler commercials say, Detroit will be back.

And right now a soccer team in the Silverdome would probably do very well.

[kodiakTFC]

I agree with you there. No sense adding a 2nd team when the 1st isn't playing to capacity.

It easy to argue that soccer is just not strong enough in North America for multiple teams in one city. Chivas should be relocated too.

That's not really fair because NYRB don't play in New York, they are in New Jersey. What if TFC was put in Hamilton, does low attendance in Hamilton mean Toronto isn't suitable for a team? Red Bull's attendance is steadily improving, they deserve some kudos, sure they are spending a lot of money to do so but its great for the league and it seems to be working.

Chivas USA is an enigma, attendance wise they do pretty well (although I question how many tickets sold compares to tickets distributed). If I was Chivas' ownership I would look to relocate on top of rebranding, I think they could do well elsewhere in LA or nearby in San Diego.

[Brooker]

And just think of the intensity a Toronto-Detroit derby could bring. :devil:

Why would it be a derby and why would it be intense?

[menefreghista]

That's not really fair because NYRB don't play in New York, they are in New Jersey. What if TFC was put in Hamilton, does low attendance in Hamilton mean Toronto isn't suitable for a team? Red Bull's attendance is steadily improving, they deserve some kudos, sure they are spending a lot of money to do so but its great for the league and it seems to be working.

Come on, that area of New Jersey has long been a part of the New York City sporting landscape. Or are you going to tell me that the Giants and Jets aren't real New York teams either?

The point is moot anyways. The Cosmos don't have a real owner, or even a real stadium plan. Until those issues are solved there won't be a 2nd MLS team in New York.

[kodiakTFC]

Come on, that area of New Jersey has long been a part of the New York City sporting landscape. Or are you going to tell me that the Giants and Jets aren't real New York teams either?

The point is moot anyways. The Cosmos don't have a real owner, or even a real stadium plan. Until those issues are solved there won't be a 2nd MLS team in New York.

I agree but all I'm saying is a Cosmos team playing in the heart of new york in a SSS could be absolutely massive for MLS. Your point about sporting landscape applies only to Football, a sport where the fans show up once every two weeks and require a ton of land for tailgates. It's not soccer and the fans have different requirements.

A NFL stadium anywhere in GTA would be huge but if BMO had been in the outskirts, it would've been a failure.

[TorontoBlades]

Come on, that area of New Jersey has long been a part of the New York City sporting landscape. Or are you going to tell me that the Giants and Jets aren't real New York teams either?

The point is moot anyways. The Cosmos don't have a real owner, or even a real stadium plan. Until those issues are solved there won't be a 2nd MLS team in New York.

It's hard to get to that stadium. If I lived in NY I would go on a Sunday morning and tailgate all day and watch an NFL game...but I probably wouldn't make that same trip for an MLS game....now if (theoretically) it was accessable by train like Yankee Stadium or MSG, that would be a completely different story. put it in Queens and it would do well

[kodiakTFC]

It's hard to get to that stadium. If I lived in NY I would go on a Sunday morning and tailgate all day and watch an NFL game...but I probably wouldn't make that same trip for an MLS game....now if (theoretically) it was accessable by train like Yankee Stadium or MSG, that would be a completely different story. put it in Queens and it would do well

This is what I'm saying and not only would it do well but it would help the Red Bulls. I don't think many people from New York proper actually go to Red Bull games because of how inconvienent it is. A team in NYproper wouldn't steal fans for the Red Bulls and would aid them in attendance via igniting a rivalry and some relevancy in the sporting landscape.

[Oldtimer]

Why would it be a derby and why would it be intense?
Agreed. Toronto-Montreal will always be the true rivalry. Even Columbus-Toronto is a pale imitation, tasers and all.




I think it's much more likely that we'll get an USL-1 or -2 team in the next 5-10 years. I understand that some people in USL have been talking to some people locally about making that happen.

That seems like a good possibility.

[P-NUTZ]

detroit is brutal - what about florida?

seems like the next best option of very, very few - if any.
P.

[Beach_Red]

I think it's much more likely that we'll get an USL-1 or -2 team in the next 5-10 years. I understand that some people in USL have been talking to some people locally about making that happen.


Maybe by then there will be relegation and we'll be in the same division ;).

[menefreghista]

I think in 5-10 years the USL/NASL won't even exist.

What are they at now? 8 teams.

Once Montreal leaves next year I wonder how it will survive in the future.

[TFC07]

YES! YES! YES!

For selfish reasons, I want Detroit to join MLS. I wonder who South western Ontarians will be rooting for if Detroit joins MLS.

[nfitz]

I think in 5-10 years the USL/NASL won't even exist.

What are they at now? 8 teams.20 teams in the two leagues (USL and NASL). While Montreal leave, a couple are expected to enter.

I suspect the league(s) structure will continue to change, but I'm sure there'll be something there in future years.

[kodiakTFC]

I think in 5-10 years the USL/NASL won't even exist.

What are they at now? 8 teams.

Once Montreal leaves next year I wonder how it will survive in the future.

8 in NASL. When Montreal leaves next season San Antonio will take their spot. NASL looks safe, they just need to build slowly and remain stringest in their expansion process. I hope Hamilton/Ottawa/Calgary find their way into NASL.

12 in USL. League is weird place, half the league does very well in attendance (2-3k) and the rest of the league doesn't belong there. USL's selection process is a joke and the future of the USL will be very interesting. Expect an expansion of 8 or so teams next year (West division) and many of them lasting a year, if that.

[__wowza]

http://www.kenn.com/the_blog/?p=4246

USL/NASL attendance numbers to put some of your comments in perspective.

[__wowza]

what i don't understand is why teams don't start up regardless. start up a franchise, put yourself in the NASL, and work towards a presentation to the garber with what you have. "we're already operational, we've already got ties to the community, we have a fanbase, we can work on getting a SSS and we're ready to be a part of the MLS" sounds a lot better than "give us a team because this could work.

[swan]

my wife said before that one should go there she thinks that it would be good ( we live an hr and a little away) but i don't see how it would go well i can't even find a pub here that shows soccer on tv.. maybe it's better closer to the city but i'm like the outcast here when i talk soccer..

[kodiakTFC]

http://www.kenn.com/the_blog/?p=4246

USL/NASL attendance numbers to put some of your comments in perspective.

Thats dated, use http://www.kenn.com/the_blog/

[Alixir]

i'm starting to not give a fuck who gets teams anymore. i'm not a fan of the expansion process. hurry up already.I know how you feel...I am sick of seeing teams that started after us doing better then us every year.

[Oldtimer]

Thats dated, use http://www.kenn.com/the_blog/

Toronto Lynx are drawing 200/game in the PDL!!! :facepalm:

[Miko]

Bring back the Express!

http://www.nasljerseys.com/images/Express/Express%2080%20Road%20Jersey%20Paul%20Hunter.jpg

[__wowza]

Thats dated, use http://www.kenn.com/the_blog/

didn't see that, cheers.

[kodiakTFC]

didn't see that, cheers.

Orlando City's attendance is pretty damn impressive for a minor league side. I know their ownership is looking at MLS and this whole USL-pro thing for them is a stepping stone but if they plan on using the Citrus Bowl for MLS then no way.

[Cashcleaner]

Bumped, for this bit of news on the eve of tonight's matches at Ford Field.

Toronto based Silverdome owner submits bid for an MLS expansion team in Detroit (http://www.mlive.com/soccer/index.ssf/2011/06/with_eyes_on_detroit_silverdome_owners_submit_mls_ expansion_bid.html).

In the immortal words of P.T. Barnum, there's a sucker born every minute.

Triple Sports may indeed submit an expansion bid to the league and perhaps against all odds they are actually awarded a club over other cities like New York, Atlanta, or Miami. But I am very doubtful that a team is going to draw enough crowds at Pontiac to sustain itself. Obviously, a four-hour road trip sounds great for us Toronto FC fans, but that simply won't be enough to generate enough local interest to support a team and make it profitable.

[Beach_Red]

^ Not every ownership has a great market gift-wrapped and handed to them. Like any new product, sometimes a market has to be developed.

But Michigan, from college sports to the pro teams they support, is a solid sports market and maybe a well-run soccer team could break in. Who knows, maybe if they have to work to build a up a market they won't let it fritter away...

[Detroit_TFC]

IMO there are no "good" or "bad" markets. Any major metropolitan area with infrastructure to get people to the stadium could theoretically support a team. However, there are ownership groups that make good business decisions and bad business decisions. For example, I was skeptical about Philly due to the saturation of sports teams there. Their ownership group made some good decisions and were able to carve out some space. Columbus started off that way then HSG let things fall apart. It's hard to say what kind of owners a Detroit team would have.

More:
The placement of teams should be a strategic decision by the league to expand the footprint of the league. Unfortunately it appears to be an auction instead of planned growth. If a crazy billionaire in Fargo, North Dakota threw $75 million at the MLS Board, I think Fargo would get a team.

On the other hand, St Louis was a perfect location for a footprint expansion, along much the same grounds as Detroit (geographic more than anything else). But that ownership group turned out to be a disaster, MLS was smart to avoid them.

[__wowza]

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2011/06/08/kick-prospective-owners-want-mls-detroit-2013

http://www.freep.com/article/20110608/SPORTS17/106080422/Plans-renovate-Silverdome-soccer-track?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|s


two new detroit articles.

[james]

personally, i think this league needs to avoid what happened to the NASL v1.
the league grew too fast, too soon.

it's not so much about whoever has the money, because money runs out. it's about finding a viable market and sustaining that market over the long run. countless teams fold because they change ownership groups, and i'm glad the MLS is taking it slow and steady.

MLSE seem to be on the same path. TFC grew bigger then MLSE and MLS thought it would, and then they grew faster with prices increase quicker then the fans thought they would. They are on a slipperry path!

[james]

if the owners were like Drew Carrey and put the effort in to getting all the supporters in Detroit together and help create a great atmosphere then who knows Detroit might work (just like any city could). However if they are like many others in MLS who dont understand the breed of soccer fans and just act as if its like any typical fan in Baseball, hockey, Basketball exc.... then no chance can the team work. The soccer moms will fade just like NASL did.

[Redcoe15]

The Motor City Supporters were given a sneak peak at the plans for a renovated Silverdome (http://www.motorcitysupporters.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=196:new-silverdome-leaked&catid=43:home-page).

http://www.motorcitysupporters.com/images/aerialrendering.jpg

http://www.motorcitysupporters.com/images/finalcutwoutfans.jpg

If this guy pulls it off, he deserves to have an MLS team play there.

[james]

The Motor City Supporters were given a sneak peak at the plans for a renovated Silverdome (http://www.motorcitysupporters.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=196:new-silverdome-leaked&catid=43:home-page).

http://www.motorcitysupporters.com/images/aerialrendering.jpg

http://www.motorcitysupporters.com/images/finalcutwoutfans.jpg

If this guy pulls it off, he deserves to have an MLS team play there.

wait im a bit confused here how this would work. Would it be a hockey rink and a concert stage under neath the soccer stadium?? how would they even build this? poor concrete above the lower venues?

only thing i could think of is it something sort of how Ottawa 67s and the ottawa roughriders stadium use to be? Ottawa 67s playing underground to the ottawa roughriders.

the soccer stadium does look nice tho if it would look anything like in this pic. but youd also have to ask how much would this cost? what would they even need a 20,000 hockey rink for it probably wouldnt be quite up to NHL standerds and not good enough for the red wings to move into. Concert?? might work, seems places always using venues for bands,pop stars exc.

[boban]

Yeah but the drive from Detroit is 45min at best. Way too far to work.

[CSO_BBTB]

So far out in the burbs it may actually be easier to get there via the Bluewater Bridge in Sarnia rather than going through Detroit if travelling from London, Ont. or further east. Being well away from downtown isn't necessarily a bad thing in Detroit, however. Was there on foot many years ago wandering about lost trying to find the Greyhound bus station. Not a fun place to be and not something I would do again. Wonder if they would use the old Detroit Express name from the NASL and bring back Trevor Francis in some capacity?

[Keystone FC]

This may actually be something good for DC United as far as leverage to get a new SSS in DC. Speaking of DCU. They are now pushing Keep DC United to get the city to come to the table about a SSS on Buzzard Point:
http://www.keepdcunited.org/

As far as a Team in Detroit? I think the stadium could work but what they need is an OWNER with CASH to pay for the franchise fee. I'm thinking they want to lure a team to Detroit but the only teams who may consider this is DCU and maybe Crew and Revs.

[james]

Yeah but the drive from Detroit is 45min at best. Way too far to work.

ya im usually against teams playing outside of cities, but in Detroit the downtown area is filled with abondoned buildings and streets, even some of the skyscrapper buildings that make the skyline are abanden. Its bit of a ghost town, more people actually live out in the suburbs, in there case it might be better to play in the suburb. But that said is silverdome in the suburbs or is it like Dallas FC where they actually even further then the suburbs and more like out in a tiny town or out in the country? and is there enough support for a soccer mls team in Detroit no matter where they play?

[Detroit_TFC]

Location is irrelevant in Detroit's case. People go downtown for Lions, Tigers and Red Wings games. The Silverdome in the northern suburbs is very close to where the Pistons play. Everyone drives to everything.

As for the engineering of the stadium modifications, TSE has told us it can be done. I'm not an architect so I can only go by what they say. As for the league, TSE has met with them, but I don't know the details of whatever business case they made for getting a team. It's a little difficult to determine what satisfies the league in terms of financial backing. St Louis had a stadium deal but MLS didn't like the ownership group. The current owners of SKC who bought the team from the Hunts was a local investment group based primarily around one local company, and that was approved. I am pessimistic about the league approving a team in Detroit unless TSE steps forward with a larger investment group.

[TFCREDNWHITE]

If Detroit gets a team, we'll be able to do 5,000 to away games!! Sweet!

[Batman]

I'm all for a team in Motown... git er done!

[Flint]

I would totally be down for this. Anything for a close road trip.

[Keystone FC]

Location is irrelevant in Detroit's case. People go downtown for Lions, Tigers and Red Wings games. The Silverdome in the northern suburbs is very close to where the Pistons play. Everyone drives to everything.

As for the engineering of the stadium modifications, TSE has told us it can be done. I'm not an architect so I can only go by what they say. As for the league, TSE has met with them, but I don't know the details of whatever business case they made for getting a team. It's a little difficult to determine what satisfies the league in terms of financial backing. St Louis had a stadium deal but MLS didn't like the ownership group. The current owners of SKC who bought the team from the Hunts was a local investment group based primarily around one local company, and that was approved. I am pessimistic about the league approving a team in Detroit unless TSE steps forward with a larger investment group.
The investment group is the only thing I see keeping Detroit from getting a MLS club IF the stadium can be revamped.
I know Garber wants a 2nd NY club baaaaaadly but I think he's starting to grow impatient.

[maninb]

Garber has said they are capping MLS at 20 teams for the foreseeable future...Detroit has no chance, unless they grab an existing team...

[stugautz]

How much would this cost? Looks like they're trying to pull the Red Wings away from downtown knowing their lease is up. If this is the case, it's a good use of space and retrofitting an existing facility with good infrastructure surrounding it.

[CSO_BBTB]

Garber has said they are capping MLS at 20 teams for the foreseeable future...Detroit has no chance, unless they grab an existing team...

Not true. He has talked about going beyond 20 teams many times.

http://www.chron.com/sports/dynamo/article/Q-A-MLS-commissioner-Garber-says-league-has-1710345.php#page-2

Q: At what point did you feel comfortable saying that the MLS has arrived, and what does the league have to do to thrive? Arrive meaning they’re here to stay, not going anywhere and thrive meaning owners in every city and not multiple owners.

A: I think the new era of Major League Soccer started in 2005 with our expansion with Salt Lake and Los Angeles, continued in San Jose and then Toronto and then obviously thereafter. We began to really feel that we were managing a very stable and viable business when more and more investors started coming into the league. Since 2005, we’ve added 14 new owners. We’ve invested more than $1.2 billion in soccer stadiums since 2005. In 2007 we signed long-term television deals with ESPN, Fox and Univision that began paying us rights fees. In 2005 we signed a 10-year, $150 million deal with Adidas, and David Beckham joined the league in 2007. It was at that time that we really began to feel that this league is here to stay and our best years were ahead. Our goal is to be one of the top soccer leagues in the world. We believe we can achieve that goal. And I don’t believe American fans would accept anything less. To achieve that we need to have the best American players playing in Major League Soccer. We need to have some of the best international players in our game. We need to have 20 to 24 teams. All of our teams will be playing in stadiums they own and control and our league’s an important part of the U.S. sports landscape. I believe that’s an achievable goal.

http://www.dailysoccerfix.com/2011/9/19/2435435/don-garber-clarifies-mls-expansion-policy-montreal-new-york

“I was surprised at some of the social, some of the media reaction to that,” Garber said. “We never said we were aggressively trying to go anywhere, including aggressively trying to pursue a 20th team. We’d like to have a 20thteam. We’d like that team to be in New York and we’re gonna work hard to try to make that happen. At some point after that, we’ll expand at the right time. We have no number in our mind as to how many teams that will be. At the right time, we’ll make those decisions.”

Garber said the league has had “recent discussions” with Las Vegas and Minneapolis, and just a little further back with Miami. They are in “almost daily” discussions with more than one group in New York. (Yes, the Cosmos is one of them … but reading between the lines, it sounds like the Cosmos group isn’t anywhere near ready for prime time.)

[__wowza]

^ fuck, just, please, no.

set up a second tier, don't even do promotion/relegation just yet if you dont want to. just govern a second tier and run it until you can get everything sorted. we're already working on an unbalanced schedule next season.

[prizby]

^ fuck, just, please, no.

set up a second tier, don't even do promotion/relegation just yet if you dont want to. just govern a second tier and run it until you can get everything sorted. we're already working on an unbalanced schedule next season.

24 teams split into two divsions = 12 teams a divsions

= 11 matches times 2 against divsions opponents (22 games)

= 12 matches 6 home/6 away against non division opponets (12 games)

= 34 games

= balanced schedule

[Yohan]

24 teams split into two divsions = 12 teams a divsions

= 11 matches times 2 against divsions opponents (22 games)

= 12 matches 6 home/6 away against non division opponets (12 games)

= 34 games

= balanced schedule
win.

[London]

garber wants it in his legacy to put a team in the south east to make it truely a north americain league.

he has stated it

i think we will see more than 20 teams

[__wowza]

24 teams split into two divsions = 12 teams a divsions

= 11 matches times 2 against divsions opponents (22 games)

= 12 matches 6 home/6 away against non division opponets (12 games)

= 34 games

= balanced schedule

that's a grand idea in theory, and i'm not saying that it wont work. i'm just saying that we'd need 5 more teams. it would be easier in my view to set up a "second division" akin to the NASL, and run that for a bit before bringing any new teams into the fold. i've always felt that existing teams should be brought up to the MLS, instead of being created from scratch. ya know?

i'm all for divisions, especially where the MLS spans such a vast area, but five is a pretty big number when you consider the fact that each would have to drop the expansion fee, as well as have plans to move into a SSS in the foreseeable future, it's just going to be hard.

[Yohan]

that's a grand idea in theory, and i'm not saying that it wont work. i'm just saying that we'd need 5 more teams. it would be easier in my view to set up a "second division" akin to the NASL, and run that for a bit before bringing any new teams into the fold. i've always felt that existing teams should be brought up to the MLS, instead of being created from scratch. ya know?

i'm all for divisions, especially where the MLS spans such a vast area, but five is a pretty big number when you consider the fact that each would have to drop the expansion fee, as well as have plans to move into a SSS in the foreseeable future, it's just going to be hard.
except any new owners would not want to start in 'second' division, esp when they are dropping millions of bucks in expansion fees

[__wowza]

except any new owners would not want to start in 'second' division, esp when they are dropping millions of bucks in expansion fees

i'd be slighted to agree with that, but you also have teams like san antonio, ottawa who're going to be joining the NASL in the next two years. quite frankly, there's a lot of teams who would need the MLS more than the MLS needs them.

if you're going to put them into the second division, sanctions can work to impact the expansion fee, and you can also use it as a selling point. instead of a risky investment you'd be able to say to owners "look, here's a team with a stadium (that may need renovations) and a fanbase. it'll work, just give us money!"

[Detroit_TFC]

I would think it makes more sense that MLS would have a second division league integrated with their business plans than one that is nominally competitive, or aspires to compete with MLS.

But nobody who's in the "club" (MLS) now is going to move to set up a system by which they might be out of the "club" even with parachute payments, etc like in the Prem. Also, no one at MLS is worried about division two competing with them. I can see a situation where a very poorly run MLS team is outgunned both on performance and financial level by a very well run NASL team but that would be the rare exception, not enough to force the issue.

So, although there are sporting reasons why pro/reg makes sense, hard to see how the business case for doing this would ever be persuasive. The best we can hope for is having a stable div 2 (whether binational or separate US and Cdn ones, I can see pluses and minuses for both approaches), that will fill in the geographical gaps so that professional footie is a reasonable day drive from any major population center.

[__wowza]

@Detroit_TFC; i made an argument here:
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1820555
which sums up a list of questions i think would need to be overcome before the MLS makes any "major" adjustments.

i agree with prizby's take that the schedule can be balanced, and that divisions can play a larger role in the league, however it's a ways out from where we are now. i still remain firm in my belief that it would be a safer investment for the teams and for the league to look at places like Minnesota, New York and Vegas under the microscope of a second-tier team. that way you can answer questions that need to be answered before making the jump.

do they have a stable fanbase?
do they have concrete plans for a SSS?
do they have a committed ownership group?
etc.

in my view, it'd be a lot easier to have the MLS say "build a franchise, then we'll talk in a few years" than it would to say "wait on the sidelines and give us your theory". my fear is that the "major league" effect always runs the risk of wearing off. if you have a stable fanbase and a stable ownership group working towards top tier from the second tier, as opposed to from scratch, it would be a lot easier to make the move.

hosting a panathankos and ac milan game DOES NOT constitute guaranteed interest at a local club level.




i know i'm kind've the guy that started this, but can i vote to move off of the overall expansion talk and focus on the proposed detroit expansion? it seems more fitting to another thread, ya know?

[Alixir]

If Detroit gets a team, we'll be able to do 5,000 to away games!! Sweet!by the time Detroit gets a team we better pray we can pull in 5000 for our own home games.

[Detroit_TFC]

Wowza, I agree about the int'l friendly game. We were disappointed they weren't able to do one this summer. They told us they tried but couldn't make it happen.

Personally, I want a Div 2 team and a WPS team to build a fan base over the next 5-10 years and revisit MLS at that point. But that will mean getting a 7500 seat stadium done, using the SD for those teams is a non-starter.

[CSO_BBTB]

...i still remain firm in my belief that it would be a safer investment for the teams and for the league to look at places like Minnesota, New York and Vegas under the microscope of a second-tier team...

Toronto would probably not have got in if that had been a key consideration given support for the Lynx was lukewarm to non-existent. MLS would probably have looked towards Rochester instead if second-tier support had been the key consideration back around 2005. Think the bottom line is MLS can work in any major population centre in North America with more than 1.5 million people in its wider metropolitan area. All it takes if a city like Detroit that is generally viewed as "major league" is involved is a viable stadium deal and somebody with very deep pockets to write the cheque for the expansion fee. All talk of a timetable or deadlines is basically just a way to generate newspaper stories about it. They didn't stop at 18 for long when Montreal missed out on the expansion from 16 to 18, for example.

[james]

the speed at which the league is growing in number of teams worries me sometimes. Are they moving to fast?

Also maybe they should relocate teams before having more exspansion teams such as does LA really need a 2nd team in 1 city playing out of the same stadium with Chivas? maybe New England should have to get there act together and get a stadium plan in the near future or else move them to Miami,Detroit,Las Vegas, minneapolis?

[james]

Toronto would probably not have got in if that had been a key consideration given support for the Lynx was lukewarm to non-existent. MLS would probably have looked towards Rochester instead if second-tier support had been the key consideration back around 2005. Think the bottom line is MLS can work in any major population centre in North America with more than 1.5 million people in its wider metropolitan area. All it takes if a city like Detroit that is generally viewed as "major league" is involved is a viable stadium deal and somebody with very deep pockets to write the cheque for the expansion fee. All talk of a timetable or deadlines is basically just a way to generate newspaper stories about it. They didn't stop at 18 for long when Montreal missed out on the expansion from 16 to 18, for example.

in that case Ottawa wouldnt qualify for a future team. There propper city has a population of 812,000, in an area bigger then the GTA. There Metro is 1.1 million but the land area that they consider to be Ottawa metro is about the size of 3 or 4 GTA's. Columbus and maybe a few other cities already in MLS are a bit smaller then there metro population makes you think, some of the metro land areas are massive in land area distance and i dont know how far some people are willing to travel on a reguler basis, unless you are a hardcore fan maybe.

[CSO_BBTB]

What I wrote doesn't preclude the possibility that MLS could work in some cities with less than 1.5 million people in its metropolitan area. MLS steered clear of Rochester because it was seen as too "minor league" despite impressive fan interest at D2 level. Ottawa probably gets a pass on that because it is a national capital and has an NHL team.

[Detroit_TFC]

the speed at which the league is growing in number of teams worries me sometimes. Are they moving to fast?

Also maybe they should relocate teams before having more exspansion teams such as does LA really need a 2nd team in 1 city playing out of the same stadium with Chivas? maybe New England should have to get there act together and get a stadium plan in the near future or else move them to Miami,Detroit,Las Vegas, minneapolis?

If the team wasn't owned by Bob Kraft, I think the Revs would be a target for relocation. No way the league will even broach the subject until the after Kraft dies.

[Detroit_TFC]

BTW, getting a good public response from the plans getting leaked. Local media starting to pick it up.

[Keystone FC]

BTW, getting a good public response from the plans getting leaked. Local media starting to pick it up.
I hope it would. We're not just talking about a soccer stadium but a multi purpose facility which could actually (IF it can be revamped) be a cornerstone for revitalization of a certain section of Detroit.