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View Full Version : Mayor Miller on stadium expansion, grass and the Argos



Cuchulain
10-08-2008, 10:26 PM
I spoke with Mayor David Miller the other day on the subway for about ten minutes. This guy is a huge TFC fan and is committed to keeping the soccer experience we're currently enjoying at BMO. I say this because the Argos issue isn't completely dead. The city has an obligation to 'explore' the idea of the Argos using BMO. The idea has been floated that the south stands would become portable to keep us on top of the action for soccer and then lengthen it for football. But in no way would TFC play on a field with football lines. He said he would not allow this to happen. AND he wants grass at BMO. And what David Miller wants, he usually gets.

AND

if BMO gets grass, the Argos issue is all but dead! It seems that going from soccer to football with a grass field at BMO isn't doable. The cost is about a million bucks for MLSE to build a bubbled turf field somewhere for the city to use to meet provincial requirements to change BMO to grass. Chump change for MLSE.

Also, stadium expansion is a current file. Five thousand seats are scheduled but not until TFC makes the playoffs.

The Mayor is one of us. He loves the magic at the games as much as we do.

Roogsy
10-08-2008, 10:29 PM
TFC should have made the playoffs THIS year. It would have dropped another hundred grand or so in the pockets of the team, which could have made a better case for grass sooner.

I see grass at BMO at some point. The problem is when? Because it will be a big factor in getting decent players in to the team and making sure the CMNT plays here as opposed to elsewhere.

TorCanSoc
10-08-2008, 10:35 PM
You can't fake TFC enthusiasm. Miller and Ben Knight, are truly one of us.... ones of us ? ones of uss'es? :)

Roogsy
10-08-2008, 10:38 PM
Hmmm...interesting question. Using "fungus/fungi" as an example, I suppose it would be "one of i" ... ;)

Bluenose13
10-08-2008, 10:43 PM
TFC could still make the playoffs THIS year.
FYP :D.......I still have a dream.

CretanBull
10-08-2008, 10:44 PM
"are" is the plural... (if there was just one of them it would be "is one of us").

Roogsy
10-08-2008, 10:47 PM
^Take your logic and correctness elsewhere, don't you realize what board you are on? :D

BN...I have a dream...and my dream is that Scarlett Johansen married THIS Canadian... :seeya:

CretanBull
10-08-2008, 10:54 PM
BN...I have a dream...and my dream is that Scarlett Johansen married THIS Canadian... :seeya:

I wish she married me too. Oh, you meant you, didn't you?

stugautz
10-08-2008, 11:10 PM
The Mayor is one of us. He loves the magic at the games as much as we do.

Don't forget he's also a politician and he'll need to be reelected

CretanBull
10-08-2008, 11:12 PM
^ You think he's sucking up for the Red Patch vote? I doubt it....

james
10-09-2008, 01:17 AM
who knows hes in politics...they say alot of bull shit.

In reality i bet if they were to expand the stadium it would just be the east stand being expanded.

i wish tho to see a North stand being built, make it about the same size as the south end is now. Then add a 2nd deck to the south stand and just put roofs on all 4 stands. But thats just a wish!

Yohan
10-09-2008, 04:21 AM
Don't forget he's also a politician and he'll need to be reelected
Peddling for couple hundred votes that'll cost couple of million bucks?

hmmm...

I hate Miller but I like what he wants to do for TFC

Cashcleaner
10-09-2008, 04:44 AM
Miller just happens to be a TFC fan. I don't think there are any ulterior motives to his remarks. He loves the Argos quite a bit too and still made vocal his wish to keep the two clubs in their respective homes. I don't often agree with him, but when it comes to sports in the city, he's got the right ideas.

mclaren
10-09-2008, 05:34 AM
David Miller has an English mother so it runs in the blood!

Stugatzo
10-09-2008, 05:42 AM
I hate Miller but I like what he wants to do for TFC

Carl Zehr is the Mayor of Kitchener.
:rolleyes:

canadian_bhoy
10-09-2008, 05:56 AM
I would much prefer them to put money into improving the current stadium (less tin can looking, roof, etc.) before dumping cash into expanding the seats.

If you look at the MLS stadiums being built, BMO is falling way short of the standard (only really comparable to crew stadium which was the first SSS built and is over 10 years old).

FluSH
10-09-2008, 07:55 AM
Miller is a supporter in my books... some of us paint banners, some of us help with tailgates, and roadtrips... but others like Miller have always given TFC publicity and support without question.

canadian_bhoy
10-09-2008, 08:06 AM
Miller is a supporter in my books... some of us paint banners, some of us help with tailgates, and roadtrips... but others like Miller have always given TFC publicity and support without question.

But I thought there was some sort of participation quota for being a real "supporter" ;)

TicTacTabarnack
10-09-2008, 08:57 AM
But I thought there was some sort of participation quota for being a real "supporter" ;)

His participation involves making grass a reality in back room political discussions and dealings. :P

Make it so!

Roogsy
10-09-2008, 08:58 AM
^word...

I propose if he gets grass into BMO Field, that we make him an honourary member!

:D

billyfly
10-09-2008, 10:19 AM
Miller's kids go to the same school as mine and they play in the same hockey league but I've never had the stones to go up to him and ask about BMO etc. Maybe I should although I'm pretty convinced after Parkdale's video and this board that I'll hear the same beliefs.

romburgundy
10-09-2008, 10:37 AM
"are" is the plural... (if there was just one of them it would be "is one of us").

"The lone rangers? There's three of you right so you're not exactly lone" -AirHeads

Dave67
10-09-2008, 10:47 AM
"are" is the plural... (if there was just one of them it would be "is one of us").


Can't this board go back to the good old days of so many people being assholes and telling everyone to fuck off?

Grammar hurts my brain :(

Hitcho
10-09-2008, 11:37 AM
"are" is the plural... (if there was just one of them it would be "is one of us").

Are is the third person plural of is, but you also then need to plurlaize the "one" part, because two people cannot be "one" of us. Grammatically there's no way to make sense of this statement in the plural.:noidea:

stugautz
10-09-2008, 11:39 AM
Can't this board go back to the good old days of so many people being assholes and telling everyone to fuck off?

Grammar hurts my brain :(

Your fucking brain :D

Hitcho
10-09-2008, 11:43 AM
I dream of MLSE and the City selling up to some rich third party who gets us grass, a stadium expansion, a roof, a training facility and our own club supporter store so that we don't have to share the ACC one with the PUCK HEADS and BOUNCY BALL fans.

The city could then use the money they get from the sale to build their own bubbled community pitch and everyone would be happy.

Anyone know any rich oil barons looking for an MLS club?!

vilerichard
10-09-2008, 12:14 PM
"are" is the plural... (if there was just one of them it would be "is one of us").

I believe you want to use the subjunctive here:

"if there were just one of them"

;)

Oldtimer
10-09-2008, 01:03 PM
I believe you want to use the subjunctive here:

"if there were just one of them"

;)

Of course, you could always use the 1930's Chicago gangster film vocabulary "Youse guys."

http://www.oldmovies.net.au/userimages/user1367_1172556085.jpg

TFC07
10-09-2008, 01:12 PM
I spoke with Mayor David Miller the other day on the subway for about ten minutes. This guy is a huge TFC fan and is committed to keeping the soccer experience we're currently enjoying at BMO. I say this because the Argos issue isn't completely dead. The city has an obligation to 'explore' the idea of the Argos using BMO. The idea has been floated that the south stands would become portable to keep us on top of the action for soccer and then lengthen it for football. But in no way would TFC play on a field with football lines. He said he would not allow this to happen. AND he wants grass at BMO. And what David Miller wants, he usually gets.

AND

if BMO gets grass, the Argos issue is all but dead! It seems that going from soccer to football with a grass field at BMO isn't doable. The cost is about a million bucks for MLSE to build a bubbled turf field somewhere for the city to use to meet provincial requirements to change BMO to grass. Chump change for MLSE.

Also, stadium expansion is a current file. Five thousand seats are scheduled but not until TFC makes the playoffs.

The Mayor is one of us. He loves the magic at the games as much as we do.

So pretty much this means that TFC can use the money from Edu transfer fee to use it on grass and new soccer facility for city. I believe TFC got like $3 million outta Edu transfer.

rocker
10-09-2008, 01:37 PM
the thing i've wondered is this: when the fed and provincial governments gave the money for the stadium, was there a contract? and did the contract stipulate rules for use of the stadium in the following years? (or was it just a contract that said the money had to go to building the stadium?)
or is everyone tiptoeing around because they just don't want to offend the other levels of gov?
cuz the stadium is owned by the city. The fed/prov money is long gone into the bricks and mortar of the stadium. The other levels of gov have no say anymore in how it's operated or its ownership.
some reporter should ask why they need to ask the other levels of gov for approval if the city owns it? Are they just "being nice" in case those officials get pissed and don't fund other projects? If so, however, would they even care?

Shakes McQueen
10-09-2008, 02:05 PM
the thing i've wondered is this: when the fed and provincial governments gave the money for the stadium, was there a contract? and did the contract stipulate rules for use of the stadium in the following years? (or was it just a contract that said the money had to go to building the stadium?)
or is everyone tiptoeing around because they just don't want to offend the other levels of gov?
cuz the stadium is owned by the city. The fed/prov money is long gone into the bricks and mortar of the stadium. The other levels of gov have no say anymore in how it's operated or its ownership.
some reporter should ask why they need to ask the other levels of gov for approval if the city owns it? Are they just "being nice" in case those officials get pissed and don't fund other projects? If so, however, would they even care?

There were contractual stipulations in the money the city got from the Feds. If you search this forum, I'm pretty sure someone posted all of the legal text regarding the obligations of BMO Field.

The Government would never give money like this away, with nothing more than a gentlemen's agreement in place.

- Scott

james
10-09-2008, 02:29 PM
So pretty much this means that TFC can use the money from Edu transfer fee to use it on grass and new soccer facility for city. I believe TFC got like $3 million outta Edu transfer.

i thot the transfer was for $5 mil? or did MLSE have to give some of that back to the league?

Roogsy
10-09-2008, 02:30 PM
i thot the transfer was for $5 mil? or did MLSE have to give some of that back to the league?

MLS keeps some. I think it goes something like 1/3 vs 2/3.

CretanBull
10-09-2008, 02:40 PM
^yup, 1/3 to the league 2/3 for us...there's restrictions on how we spend that 2/3 too....

Toronto Ruffrider
10-09-2008, 03:00 PM
^yup, 1/3 to the league 2/3 for us...there's restrictions on how we spend that 2/3 too....

Yeah, MLSE needs to get the green light from MLS before spending its two-thirds. Essentially, the money can't just be used to fatten the FO's bottom line. Some of it can go toward signing a player, but the rest must be used to improve the organisation in some other capacity - i.e. improve the academy, build a practice facility.

rocker
10-09-2008, 03:25 PM
There were contractual stipulations in the money the city got from the Feds. If you search this forum, I'm pretty sure someone posted all of the legal text regarding the obligations of BMO Field.

The Government would never give money like this away, with nothing more than a gentlemen's agreement in place.

- Scott

can you point me to this? I've read the whole MLSE--City of Toronto contract that lists the obligations of each and the operating formulas. I've seen the "usage proposals" that were printed on a website when they were lobbying for the funding for the stadium (ie--BMO Field will be used for 6 CSA games per year, 15 league games etc). But I've never seen an actual contract.

I'm not implying that the government would give away money with a gentlemen's agreement. But there's a big diff between a contract that says "We hereby give X million only for a soccer stadium to be built on Exhibition grounds, of this kind and that style, run by these people, owned by the city" and a contract that says this all plus "and it can never be changed in any way without the approval of the feds and provincials" or that "if the community use provision is completely ignored, it's a violation". I have a hard time believing that they have to ask those levels of gov for any further changes not funded by gov. I know that there's this oversight level run by Marc Petitpas on behalf of the CNE board, and things have to go through that, but that's not the same as asking the governments for permission (that's about what's in the best interests of the CNE and the stadium).

If community use is in the original funding contract, then that doesn't preclude the establishment of grass. Communities can still use a grass field however impractical.

Furthermore, I'd like to know what penalties would be in place if things were changes unilaterally. The money is gone. It's the stadium. The city of Toronto owns it.

I am just questioning these things because to throw it off on the feds and provs seems like an easy way to deflect responsibility. If there's some catastrophic penalty to be incurred if they didn't ask for permission, what is it? If the city is on board, MO Edu's transfer money is ready to roll out, then why not just do it?
I also think that to be honest, the other levels of government have bigger problems right now than BMO adding grass and a practice field next door. If I were covering TFC for a media outlet I'd be askin these questions...

Just some thoughts...

Stugatzo
10-09-2008, 03:41 PM
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/2005/agendas/council/cc051026/pof9rpt/cl036.pdf

CretanBull
10-09-2008, 03:50 PM
Yeah, MLSE needs to get the green light from MLS before spending its two-thirds. Essentially, the money can't just be used to fatten the FO's bottom line. Some of it can go toward signing a player, but the rest must be used to improve the organisation in some other capacity - i.e. improve the academy, build a practice facility.

The money has to be spent on a classic ambiguous MLS term "soccer infrastructure" - but there's not clear definition of what that is. What it ultimately comes down to is that we need to get league approval for how we spend the money (and the money has to be spent, not banked as profits).

Shakes McQueen
10-09-2008, 04:40 PM
can you point me to this? I've read the whole MLSE--City of Toronto contract that lists the obligations of each and the operating formulas. I've seen the "usage proposals" that were printed on a website when they were lobbying for the funding for the stadium (ie--BMO Field will be used for 6 CSA games per year, 15 league games etc). But I've never seen an actual contract.

I'm not implying that the government would give away money with a gentlemen's agreement. But there's a big diff between a contract that says "We hereby give X million only for a soccer stadium to be built on Exhibition grounds, of this kind and that style, run by these people, owned by the city" and a contract that says this all plus "and it can never be changed in any way without the approval of the feds and provincials" or that "if the community use provision is completely ignored, it's a violation". I have a hard time believing that they have to ask those levels of gov for any further changes not funded by gov. I know that there's this oversight level run by Marc Petitpas on behalf of the CNE board, and things have to go through that, but that's not the same as asking the governments for permission (that's about what's in the best interests of the CNE and the stadium).

If community use is in the original funding contract, then that doesn't preclude the establishment of grass. Communities can still use a grass field however impractical.

Furthermore, I'd like to know what penalties would be in place if things were changes unilaterally. The money is gone. It's the stadium. The city of Toronto owns it.

I am just questioning these things because to throw it off on the feds and provs seems like an easy way to deflect responsibility. If there's some catastrophic penalty to be incurred if they didn't ask for permission, what is it? If the city is on board, MO Edu's transfer money is ready to roll out, then why not just do it?
I also think that to be honest, the other levels of government have bigger problems right now than BMO adding grass and a practice field next door. If I were covering TFC for a media outlet I'd be askin these questions...

Just some thoughts...

I don't think they have to ask the government for permission. My guess is that they just have to make sure whatever actions they take, are in accordance with the ground rules for the money.

As for what punishments could potentially be in place, I'm guessing the provincial and federal governments would likely 'penalize' the City of Toronto - possibly by withholding budgetary money.

The City may own the stadium, but it can't afford to go rogue on the feds - they count on them too much for money in other areas.

- Scott

marquis
10-09-2008, 07:36 PM
I don't understand, what does the money from Edu have to do with putting grass on BMO? We don't have grass now because MLSE couldn't afford it in the first place? They had to start selling players so they could come up with the cash?

jloome
10-09-2008, 07:53 PM
My understanding -- and I could be remembering this wrong -- but my understanding from reading the Toronto City Council minutes when they were released along with some press on this issue a few months ago is that the grass was requested by members of Toronto council who were nervous about using public money without public use rights, and that that would be difficult to accomodate solely in soccer season.

It wouldn't surprise me, however, if the feds included the same clause, either of their own initiative or after learning of that reticence.

jloome
10-09-2008, 07:55 PM
I don't understand, what does the money from Edu have to do with putting grass on BMO? We don't have grass now because MLSE couldn't afford it in the first place? They had to start selling players so they could come up with the cash?

Technically, the team only makes about $2.1 million in profits, and that's actually well under what it would cost to install turf (assuming first-time capital costs such as underground heating.) Even with capital costs out of the way, it will be expensive to maintain.

But they have a lot of freedom from the league on how to use the edu money.

Cuchulain
10-09-2008, 08:02 PM
We don't have grass now because the stadium had to be bubbled for use in the winter by the community. They have to supply a bubbled field somewhere if they take away the one we have now.(BMO) My guess is the city would supply the site and MLSE would build the field.

If the city were to reneg on the terms of the deal it would sure be difficult to get funding for future projects like this. i.e. rec/sports/arts

Toronto Ruffrider
10-09-2008, 11:26 PM
I don't understand, what does the money from Edu have to do with putting grass on BMO? We don't have grass now because MLSE couldn't afford it in the first place? They had to start selling players so they could come up with the cash?

The use of BMO Field as a public facility is the reason why FieldTurf was installed and not grass. If money was the issue for MLSE, then no teams in MLS could afford grass.

Toronto Ruffrider
10-09-2008, 11:27 PM
Technically, the team only makes about $2.1 million in profits, and that's actually well under what it would cost to install turf (assuming first-time capital costs such as underground heating.) Even with capital costs out of the way, it will be expensive to maintain.

But they have a lot of freedom from the league on how to use the edu money.

Well, TFC "technically" makes $2.1 million. Who's to say what the real figure is.

nascarguy
10-09-2008, 11:43 PM
mlse Enterprise value (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterprise_value) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Green_Arrow_Up.svg/12px-Green_Arrow_Up.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Green_Arrow_Up.svg)$1.75 billion USD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_dollar) (2008

As of 2003:

58% – Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Teachers%27_Pension_Plan)
15% – CTVglobemedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CTVglobemedia)
14% – TD Bank Financial Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto-Dominion_Bank), through TD Capital Group
13% – Kilmer Sports Inc. (owned by Larry Tanenbaum)

Sonny Cheeba
10-10-2008, 12:07 AM
mlse Enterprise value (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterprise_value) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Green_Arrow_Up.svg/12px-Green_Arrow_Up.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Green_Arrow_Up.svg)$1.75 billion USD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_dollar) (2008

As of 2003:

58% – Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Teachers%27_Pension_Plan)
15% – CTVglobemedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CTVglobemedia)
14% – TD Bank Financial Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto-Dominion_Bank), through TD Capital Group
13% – Kilmer Sports Inc. (owned by Larry Tanenbaum)


damn and i thought they were part owned by Val Kilmer, aka Iceman, aka Mad Mardigan, aka. what else is he known as?

jloome
10-10-2008, 12:16 AM
We don't have grass now because the stadium had to be bubbled for use in the winter by the community. They have to supply a bubbled field somewhere if they take away the one we have now.(BMO) My guess is the city would supply the site and MLSE would build the field.

If the city were to reneg on the terms of the deal it would sure be difficult to get funding for future projects like this. i.e. rec/sports/arts

You're right, the fabled "practice facility."

Hitcho
10-10-2008, 11:07 AM
I believe you want to use the subjunctive here:

"if there were just one of them"

;)

Spot on sir - I thank you for correcting my poor grammar.

BTW, that LEGO photo you have of the "hand of god" is hilarious! Where the hell did you find that?!

stugautz
10-10-2008, 11:40 AM
damn and i thought they were part owned by Val Kilmer, aka Iceman, aka Mad Mardigan, aka. what else is he known as?

The 2nd worst Batman, after George Clooney.

Oblio2
10-10-2008, 11:48 AM
..But he was good as "Nick Rivers in Top Secret!

"Skeet Surfing"

marquis
10-10-2008, 07:31 PM
The use of BMO Field as a public facility is the reason why FieldTurf was installed and not grass. If money was the issue for MLSE, then no teams in MLS could afford grass.

OK, so why is the Edu money linked with the grass on this board, then? "We sold Edu for grass"...