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ensco
10-02-2008, 11:33 AM
...swap the entire TFC roster for the Impact roster?

Just wondering. I think I would.

flatpicker
10-02-2008, 11:35 AM
wow... hmmm...

problem I have with the Impact is they are soooo boring to watch (but they do get results)

I think I would let Toronto develop into something more entertaining instead (fingers crossed)

bhoybobby
10-02-2008, 11:36 AM
Interesting question. It would be sweet to be involved in the CL at the group stages. The fact that they are & we're not is another nail in Mo's well nailed down coffin

adamdz
10-02-2008, 11:42 AM
No thanks, be proud of what you got!

wzhxvy
10-02-2008, 11:45 AM
You know how it goes...the grass is always greener...oops wait does that apply when you do not have grass ? :-)

Nodoubtguy
10-02-2008, 11:48 AM
No, this group of underachievers is my favourite group of underachievers ever collected!!! What happened to Toronto till I die??

TheRenter
10-02-2008, 11:57 AM
fcuk right off.....seriously!

Ossington Mental Youth
10-02-2008, 12:04 PM
no thanks, bunch of boring diving cheats.
Good question.
no, fucking hate the lot of em
No matter how dysfunctional we are at times (which seems to be the the only thing we are consistent at), i do love this team (although a couple players need to go and the rest need to smarten up).
Sigh.

nimamalek
10-02-2008, 12:06 PM
No, this group of underachievers is my favourite group of underachievers ever collected!!! What happened to Toronto till I die??

he didnt ask if you would stop being a TFC fan, he just asked if you would trade all our players for what seems to be a better team :)

Beach_Red
10-02-2008, 12:10 PM
...swap the entire TFC roster for the Impact roster?

Just wondering. I think I would.

Here, before Giambac gets here, I'll fill in for him:

If we could swap coaches, too. Why would those guys play any better for Carver than the ones we have?

invictusTFC
10-02-2008, 12:41 PM
Here, before Giambac gets here, I'll fill in for him:

If we could swap coaches, too. Why would those guys play any better for Carver than the ones we have?

QFT

I have defended Carver all season, but the performances from this team over the past month or so have irritated me beyond belief. It has become clear to me that Carver has failed to get this cast of characters to buy into his system (If there even is a system of play. There have been games that have made me wonder); he has failed to get the best out of a squad that was touted as being one of the more talented in this league at the beginning of the season. Every must win situation this team has faced they have fallen on their face and have put in perhaps some of their worst performances. In my opinion (for whatever its worth), Carver has lost the room, and that usually marks the beginning of the end for any manager.

When contrasting TFC and Montreal, we are talking about two clubs that have been going in opposite directions all season. TFC started off brilliantly and spiraled down the standings at an alarming rate. The Impact on the other hand struggled in the early stages, made a coaching change and today it seems that the sky is the limit.

When all is said and done John Limniatis has out-managed JC with a less talented squad. He has instilled confidence in his team and has made his players believe in themselves. This is something that is missing with our beloved TFC, and its made glaringly obvious with each passing game.

I think the question should be, would you swap John Carver for John Limniatis. At this point and time I'm inclined to say yes.

Nodoubtguy
10-02-2008, 12:43 PM
he didnt ask if you would stop being a TFC fan, he just asked if you would trade all our players for what seems to be a better team :)

But players like DD, Jimmy B, Sutton, Robbo.....they are TFC!!!

Azerban
10-02-2008, 12:47 PM
hey remember that montreal hasn't actually beaten us ever

remember that

invictusTFC
10-02-2008, 12:55 PM
hey remember that montreal hasn't actually beaten us ever

remember that

A team doesn't have to beat us to be better than us. You also have to remember that when we first played them they were basement dwellers in the USL and playing like garbage under DeSantis. We on the other hand were playing the best footie we played all season. But people can hold on to that statistic if it helps them sleep better at night.

Super
10-02-2008, 12:57 PM
You do realize that swapping teams means Braz will be back in Toronto. That alone should bring a No vote out of everyone!

Ossington Mental Youth
10-02-2008, 12:59 PM
still not entirely convinced that Carver is to blame entirely.
Liminiatis however is directly responsible as he took a squad that wasnt his, was bottom of the league put them in top 3 and is doing fantastic in CL

giambac
10-02-2008, 01:10 PM
...swap the entire TFC roster for the Impact roster?

Just wondering. I think I would.


Absolutely yes I would in a heart beat.

I would also swap the tFC team for the Vaughan Azzuri, Toronto Sporting Lisbon, Toronto Crotia.

Get the Picture.

TFC is made up of overpaid, underworked, lazy, non talented players who for the most part are past their prime. Exceptions are Wynne, J Smith, Barrett, Sutton, and maybe Ricketts.

invictusTFC
10-02-2008, 01:12 PM
still not entirely convinced that Carver is to blame entirely.
Liminiatis however is directly responsible as he took a squad that wasnt his, was bottom of the league put them in top 3 and is doing fantastic in CL

I'm not entirely convinced either, but what do you do? Rebuild this team all over again? The chronic instability of the roster has to be a reason for our poor showing too. Is a DP the answer? If the season were to end today, every team with a DP would miss the play-offs.

Its frustrating when the answers aren't so clear cut...

giambac
10-02-2008, 01:12 PM
Here, before Giambac gets here, I'll fill in for him:

If we could swap coaches, too. Why would those guys play any better for Carver than the ones we have?

Man you beat me to the punch.

Maybewe don't have to swap all the palyers. Let's just swap our coaches.
Guaranteed we would be a better team. They would be better organized, more fit, and they would be playing in a designed system which Carver doesn't offer.

giambac
10-02-2008, 01:15 PM
QFT

I have defended Carver all season, but the performances from this team over the past month or so have irritated me beyond belief. It has become clear to me that Carver has failed to get this cast of characters to buy into his system (If there even is a system of play. There have been games that have made me wonder); he has failed to get the best out of a squad that was touted as being one of the more talented in this league at the beginning of the season. Every must win situation this team has faced they have fallen on their face and have put in perhaps some of their worst performances. In my opinion (for whatever its worth), Carver has lost the room, and that usually marks the beginning of the end for any manager.

When contrasting TFC and Montreal, we are talking about two clubs that have been going in opposite directions all season. TFC started off brilliantly and spiraled down the standings at an alarming rate. The Impact on the other hand struggled in the early stages, made a coaching change and today it seems that the sky is the limit.

When all is said and done John Limniatis has out-managed JC with a less talented squad. He has instilled confidence in his team and has made his players believe in themselves. This is something that is missing with our beloved TFC, and its made glaringly obvious with each passing game.

I think the question should be, would you swap John Carver for John Limniatis. At this point and time I'm inclined to say yes.

WOW I see that with each passing day, each passing minute more and more people are finally seeing the light;)

netsan
10-02-2008, 01:22 PM
Yes. I would. We would be a functioning TEAM.

Fishnicker
10-02-2008, 01:23 PM
The question should be "If you would swap them, which 18 off MTL's 26 man roster would you swap for TO's 18 man roster".

Don't forget that they can pay the bottom 8 alot more than 17.5k or whatever pittance it is that we can. And there's no distinction between Dev and Senior. So you'd have to leave off some pretty good players.

rocker
10-02-2008, 01:25 PM
A team doesn't have to beat us to be better than us.

in a fantasy world, yes..

but in the real world (where teams actually play each other before we annoint another the better team), Montreal has never beaten us.

that's a fact I will not back down on. Otherwise you're giving in to those Montreal Ultra cunts.

Another fact: TFC scored the first ever goal at Saputo stadium. :)

Ossington Mental Youth
10-02-2008, 01:30 PM
I'm not entirely convinced either, but what do you do? Rebuild this team all over again? The chronic instability of the roster has to be a reason for our poor showing too. Is a DP the answer? If the season were to end today, every team with a DP would miss the play-offs.

Its frustrating when the answers aren't so clear cut...

So frustrating.
i totally agree, i dont think the team needs to be rebuilt, i do think there are some players that have to go (and some that need to come in). I dont think a DP would hurt (in any position, preferably either Striker or Defense, but if hes defense, we defo need some top quality strikers as we are sorely lacking in that dept).

I think the off season will be good to work on tactics and gelling, which usually would have happened by now but because of all the disruptions, its more or less disappeared. We need our new players ASAP, not the same shit that Mo did last season. I think there will be alot of development for JoSmith and for James as well. They are great for depth but not necessarily starters. We need to sign some starters, including defense, wing and mid. I think Rosenlund needs to be trained to be Guevaras back up and we need a solid DM for Robbos back up or even to challenge Robbo. I think we may see the Scottish ex hibbies guy get signed.

invictusTFC
10-02-2008, 01:50 PM
in a fantasy world, yes..

but in the real world (where teams actually play each other before we annoint another the better team), Montreal has never beaten us.

that's a fact I will not back down on. Otherwise you're giving in to those Montreal Ultra cunts.

Another fact: TFC scored the first ever goal at Saputo stadium. :)

In the real world soccer is a marathon not a sprint. Montreal improved immensely as the season went on. TFC disintegrated. Montreal is in the semis of the USL playoffs and close to advancing to the knock-out stages of the CCL. TFC on the other hand has been virtually eliminated from the MLS playoff picture altogether.

Maybe Montreal hasn't beaten us, but they sure did eliminate us from the CCL qualifying tournament in our own stadium.

TFC may have scored the first goal at the Saputo Stadium, but it was that same stadium that hosted the first ever CCL match in Canada.

The measure of a team is taken at the end of the season, and right now it can be argued that Montreal is a better team than TFC.

olegunnar
10-02-2008, 01:59 PM
I said it before and I'll say it again.

If you break our team into two groups 1) playing under expectations and 2) playing at or above expectations. There would be a hell of a lot more 1s than 2s. Infer from that what you will.

Montreal has a lot more 2s than 1s which is why people like the job their coach has done.

On paper our team is better, but in reality their's is playing better.

I think that says a lot. I also think that's why this has gone from a roster question to a coach/manager question.

billyfly
10-02-2008, 02:27 PM
All I read was "would you swap.." Sounds like a movie I just saw.

giambac
10-02-2008, 02:28 PM
I said it before and I'll say it again.

If you break our team into two groups 1) playing under expectations and 2) playing at or above expectations. There would be a hell of a lot more 1s than 2s. Infer from that what you will.

Montreal has a lot more 2s than 1s which is why people like the job their coach has done.

On paper our team is better, but in reality their's is playing better.

I think that says a lot. I also think that's why this has gone from a roster question to a coach/manager question.

Yes sir. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Marco2K
10-02-2008, 04:12 PM
they have a better coach. Anyone who does not agress is on crack.

Remember he got hired the day after TFC beat them 1-0 at home. They have been on fire since.

Axeman
10-02-2008, 04:25 PM
they have a better coach. Anyone who does not agress is on crack.

Remember he got hired the day after TFC beat them 1-0 at home. They have been on fire since.
I don't agress, hahaha sounds like you've been doing some though.

Roogsy
10-02-2008, 05:33 PM
Insanity. It's the only word that can accurately describe this thread.

Marco2K
10-02-2008, 05:45 PM
Biographie / BiographyLimniatis is the seventh head coach in Impact history. As a player, John Limniatis was a midfielder during eight seasons with the Impact, from 1993 to 1998, then in 2000 and 2001, playing 151 games and 13,976 minutes. He was also a member of the Canadian national team, playing World Cup qualifying games in 1990, 1994 and 1998. He also played in first and second division in Greece, from 1987 to 1992. He was also head coach of the Impact indoor team, in 1999-2000 and was assistant coach in mid-season in 2000. He was honoured by the Impact as Team Builder on May 10, 2006. He has been technical director of the AAA teams of the Lac St. Louis Soccer Club since 2003.





The guy has made them win. Thats it

VPjr
10-03-2008, 10:14 PM
Another big win tonight for the Impact. here's a shocker....winning goal was scored by one of the several Canadians on the team (Antonio Ribiero).

It was a good game. Played with lots of intensity.

too bad the stade saputo pitch is still a disaster. the middle of the pitch is riddled with big ass gopher holes.

ua-kozak_TFC
10-03-2008, 10:19 PM
...swap the entire TFC roster for the Impact roster?

Just wondering. I think I would.

i donno about that but i would definetly swap their coach for MO....

jloome
10-03-2008, 10:20 PM
Their cohesion and teamwork is quite impressive right now but player for player, even with our disaster of a season, this is an insane proposition. Wouldn't mind swiping a few of them, thouhg: Brown, Grande, Byers have all looked good in the second half of the season.

ua-kozak_TFC
10-03-2008, 10:26 PM
No thanks, be proud of what you got!

hahhaa... that is something really hard to do... when your tem hasn;t won since may...

ua-kozak_TFC
10-03-2008, 10:29 PM
hey remember that montreal hasn't actually beaten us ever

remember that
actually when we beat them luminiatis wasn;t the coach...

Dirk Diggler
10-03-2008, 10:38 PM
No. Why swap the entire team when u could swap just two ... coach and the GM.

BigLou
10-03-2008, 10:39 PM
Insanity. It's the only word that can accurately describe this thread.
QFT!!!!!!!!!!

Keyman
10-04-2008, 12:19 AM
I respect the differing opinions of the members on this board, but really? Switch our roster for their roster? You have to be kidding me.

This whole Impact vs. TFC debate, comparison, or whatever it is, has become ridiculous.

Marco2K
10-04-2008, 03:20 AM
How is it ridiciulous. they win games every week
We have not won in months

Shakes McQueen
10-04-2008, 03:32 AM
I'm not entirely convinced either, but what do you do? Rebuild this team all over again? The chronic instability of the roster has to be a reason for our poor showing too. Is a DP the answer? If the season were to end today, every team with a DP would miss the play-offs.

Its frustrating when the answers aren't so clear cut...

I agree that this prolonged slump has been frustrating, but I don't think the "usual Toronto solution" of firing coaches and managers after a single season, is the solution. We need stability for a while, to assess everyone's true value.

There are too many Al Davis' on this board.

Next season will be the watershed moment for both Mo and Carver, assuming our roster isn't a revolving door again. I want to see what things are like when Carver has a consistent group of guys on the pitch all season.

Remember this: Things were going swimmingly for the club, right up until we started bringing in and losing all kinds of players to injury, call-ups, trades, etc. etc. etc. Carver has had to quickly attempt to integrate many new players into a new system this season.

If this were a seasoned team, with more than 1.8 years under it's belt, I might agree that Carver/Mo have been abject failures. But considering how much our roster has been in flux, basically since the club was created - which is normal for a new team - I find it hard to accurately judge their worth to the franchise.

So far, I've been glad that Mo isn't afraid to try all kinds of promising players - in the hopes tat a few might click with the club, and produce results. This is what a new team has to do.

I also think that, had Mo landed Huckerby, many folks here would be singing a different tune right now. He has openly come out and said that the turf has cost him all kinds of signings - more than we know of.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
10-04-2008, 03:38 AM
I'd also like to say this: If you want the Montreal Impact's roster, why not go the final yard, and simply cheer for the Montreal Impact?

I can't help but laugh when people glibly state "why wouldn't I? At least they are winning!"

Why? Because they aren't Toronto FC. Our boys are our boys, for better or worse. I might take a couple of Impact players through transfers, but there is a reason some of us sing for guys like Dichio, Ricketts, and Brennan every weekend - because they are our guys.

I want to see us add the handful of players that will make us a contender in our own right - not just transplant another club's roster.

Saying "I want that winning team's roster", is just being a borderline glory hunter. I agree that the badge is more important than the players on the pitch, but I also think that the players still count for a lot.

- Scott

Cashcleaner
10-04-2008, 04:35 AM
A full swap? Hmmmmm, I don't think I'd be up for that, but I can think of a few players and staff members I'd like to see working for Toronto.

The thing about Montreal is that I never could bring myself to hate them until the NCC match and subsequent pseudo-riot with the Impact fans. I got mad respect for the team for going so far in CONCACAF, but as for their fans... yeah, that's a different matter.

Shakes McQueen
10-04-2008, 05:33 AM
A full swap? Hmmmmm, I don't think I'd be up for that, but I can think of a few players and staff members I'd like to see working for Toronto.

The thing about Montreal is that I never could bring myself to hate them until the NCC match and subsequent pseudo-riot with the Impact fans. I got mad respect for the team for going so far in CONCACAF, but as for their fans... yeah, that's a different matter.

Though I will always cheer for Toronto FC when they play Montreal, I actually take pride in how well the lone Canadian team in the CCL has done.

Maybe I just don't buy into the Canadian rivalries the way some folks do. I'm also a de fact Maple Leafs fan, but if the Canadiens won the Cup this year, I'd be happy to see such a storied, great Canadian team bring the cup home.

It's always gives me pride to see Canadian teams doing well on an international stage. Especially when it comes to soccer, where we are considered somewhat of a backwater. Montreal's CCL success raises the profile of Canadian soccer.

Of course, I wish it was MY team that was doing so. But you can't always get what you want.

- Scott

London
10-04-2008, 07:23 AM
shit thread

Cashcleaner
10-04-2008, 07:36 AM
Though I will always cheer for Toronto FC when they play Montreal, I actually take pride in how well the lone Canadian team in the CCL has done.

Maybe I just don't buy into the Canadian rivalries the way some folks do. I'm also a de fact Maple Leafs fan, but if the Canadiens won the Cup this year, I'd be happy to see such a storied, great Canadian team bring the cup home.

It's always gives me pride to see Canadian teams doing well on an international stage. Especially when it comes to soccer, where we are considered somewhat of a backwater. Montreal's CCL success raises the profile of Canadian soccer.

Of course, I wish it was MY team that was doing so. But you can't always get what you want.

- Scott

I think I'm in the same camp as you. I've never really hated any other football team my club played against simply because they were another team. While my loyalties were to Hibs in the Scottish league, I'd still watch both Rangers and Celtic when they played in Europe. The same sorta goes with Montreal playing in the Champions League. I've got no love for the Impact, but I can see they are playing good soccer and representing Canada well. Of course, I'd much rather see Toronto playing instead, but I'm not directing my anger at the team that beat us, I'm angry at my club because we lost the Canadian Championship in such a bad way.

ensco
10-04-2008, 08:52 AM
I'm thisclose to leaving this board.

I'm tired of the tone of debate. The proportion of immature name calling to reasonable discussion has gotten out seriously out of whack.

Beach_Red
10-04-2008, 08:52 AM
i donno about that but i would definetly swap their coach for MO....

I's like to see how their coach could do with the team Mo put together - if he could get good performances out of Guevara and Ruiz, maybe Robert would have even done well in Montreal and maybe Tebily would still be playing, maybe O'Brien would have stayed and Huckerby would have signed on.

And maybe I'd still be living in Montreal, I'd be eating bagels and croissants rights now and.... fuck it. Our team is our team. Next year we will crush Montreal and Vancouver and next October we will be playing in Costa Rica and Honduras and Mexico and winning.

The Kingpin
10-04-2008, 09:06 AM
I'm this close to leaving this board.

I'm tired of the tone of debate. The proportion of immature name calling to reasonable discussion has gotten out seriously out of whack.

If you do, just please don't announce it. Walk away with class intact. The leaving announcement has become the absolute bane of the boards. By the way, if you want great debate I suggest that you only answer the individuals who are debating constructively. We've all been guilty of getting caught up in these poor threads, but if you stick to debating what you desire then you'll continue to enjoy yourself. But I have always felt that it's very embarrassing to announce you are leaving, just go or stay and make things better. No body likes a quitter.

Oh, and no I don't think swapping rosters would be affective or successful. I think proper scouting and avoiding cancers such as Guevara & Ruiz would be an excellent start. I'm also becoming more inclined to believe that a little more Canadian talent could help as there would be an element of pride. I think Monteal and Vancouver are far inferior clubs with a greater sense of pride. Just my thoughts.

rocker
10-04-2008, 09:32 AM
Their cohesion and teamwork is quite impressive right now but player for player, even with our disaster of a season, this is an insane proposition. Wouldn't mind swiping a few of them, thouhg: Brown, Grande, Byers have all looked good in the second half of the season.

This is basically my position.
I barely see anyone on the Impact that impresses me with their skills.
But I do see great chemistry.

The thing is, the core of the Montreal team has been playing together longer than the core of TFC. I know everyone shits on DeSantis and praises Limniatis, but DeSantis coached Montreal to some GREAT seasons in recent years with many of these same players. It was only really the start of this season that the team failed under him. He coached Montreal to 10 shutouts one season.

Montreal's cohesiveness is part coaching, part "the passing of time together".
They have a core group of players who have played with Montreal for a long time:

Braz -- 100 games
Gervais -- 150 games
Leduc -- 200 games
Di Lorenzo -- 70 games
Biello -- 217 games
Ribeiro -- 100 games
Gatti -- 60 games
Pizzolitto -- 170 games

In contrast, Jim Brennan has played the most games for TFC, at 51... Robinson is second at 50. Can you imagine if we had 6 of our key players playing together for 100-200 games!?!?!? the cohesion would be massive. Montreal was not an expansion team in 2007, so they've had the time to work things out, find useful players who will stick around and won't be leaving to other leagues, and they've had them play together for a helluva long time.
That's why I see their "team play" as not just a coaching thing. Certainly that matters. But these players really know the brains of their teammates through pure experience.

starrynightnf
10-04-2008, 09:58 AM
ohh guys, I don't think there's any need to call someone or their thread names for asking a question. I think he just wanted to start a healthy debate...and it worked, I think. :D

As for the question, I wouldn't trade our roster for theirs. I like some of our players...I just want to see them more able to work together and get results!

Well, there are other factors but I agree with McQueen, if we were to trade the whole roster it'd be just as well to cheer for Montreal, wouldn't it?

BigLou
10-04-2008, 11:16 AM
Jim Brennan has played the most games for TFC, at 51... Robinson is second at 50. Can you imagine if we had 6 of our key players playing together for 100-200 games!?!?!? the cohesion would be massive. Montreal was not an expansion team in 2007, so they've had the time to work things out, find useful players who will stick around and won't be leaving to other leagues, and they've had them play together for a helluva long time.
That's why I see their "team play" as not just a coaching thing. Certainly that matters. But these players really know the brains of their teammates through pure experience.
This is a key observation you have made. Montreal holds their shape so well because they have so much experience playing together. I can't wait till we have the kind of stability on our roster. I hate the Impact but I want to see them continue to dominate in this competition this year because then hopefully Canada will be granted more berths in the tourney in the future!!!

trane
10-04-2008, 11:26 AM
Their cohesion and teamwork is quite impressive right now but player for player, even with our disaster of a season, this is an insane proposition. Wouldn't mind swiping a few of them, thouhg: Brown, Grande, Byers have all looked good in the second half of the season.


That is the point, I have repeated, they are not more tallented they are better organized and have consistent "cohesion and teamwork" as you but as you note they have several players that would be very helpful to us. I agree with the three you identified.

Shakes McQueen
10-04-2008, 05:42 PM
This is basically my position.
I barely see anyone on the Impact that impresses me with their skills.
But I do see great chemistry.

The thing is, the core of the Montreal team has been playing together longer than the core of TFC. I know everyone shits on DeSantis and praises Limniatis, but DeSantis coached Montreal to some GREAT seasons in recent years with many of these same players. It was only really the start of this season that the team failed under him. He coached Montreal to 10 shutouts one season.

Montreal's cohesiveness is part coaching, part "the passing of time together".
They have a core group of players who have played with Montreal for a long time:

Braz -- 100 games
Gervais -- 150 games
Leduc -- 200 games
Di Lorenzo -- 70 games
Biello -- 217 games
Ribeiro -- 100 games
Gatti -- 60 games
Pizzolitto -- 170 games

In contrast, Jim Brennan has played the most games for TFC, at 51... Robinson is second at 50. Can you imagine if we had 6 of our key players playing together for 100-200 games!?!?!? the cohesion would be massive. Montreal was not an expansion team in 2007, so they've had the time to work things out, find useful players who will stick around and won't be leaving to other leagues, and they've had them play together for a helluva long time.
That's why I see their "team play" as not just a coaching thing. Certainly that matters. But these players really know the brains of their teammates through pure experience.


Well said rocker. This is basically what I was getting at with my original post.

If this were an older club, with a consistent roster for a long while, you could better assess the value of the coaches and managers.

But when your wiliest veteran has a mere 51 games under his belt for the club, you won't get that sort of cohesion that simply comes from having a core who play together for years. Montreal has that.

- Scott

Roogsy
10-04-2008, 08:24 PM
Very interesting points. Can't find any fault in them.