Ives thinks MLS needs 28 men roster $5m cap

[Oldtimer]

Lastly what do you think how many more spots on the rosters do MLS teams need to compete in all these events,and what is a realistic bump up in salary cap?
IVES- I don't think MLS will take enough USL markets to kill USL. I would argue that USL is growing in strength, with talent improving, investment improving and respect for the league improving. That said, I still don't see promotion/relegation happening.
As for roster spots needed to really compete. I would say that teams need 28 to 30 senior roster spots for MLS teams to be strong enough to compete in multiple competitions. Ideally you would have a 28-man senior roster and 10-man developmental roster. That's 10 extra senior roster spots and salaries to fill those slots.
And a realistic salary bump in the salary cap is tough to measure because we don't know how high MLS is willing to go. A $1 million increase per team means a $16 million increase MLS owners have to cover. I personally think a $5 million cap on a 28-man senior roster would be an ideal next step, but that would mean more than a $40 million increase for MLS to deal with.


http://www.soccerbyives.net/soccer_by_ives/2008/09/your-question-1.html#more

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Ives would be correct

[Fort York Redcoat]

I want it but will teams be able to take on an increase of salaries and added roster spots. 10 sounds good as a fan but I'd take half that and happier players with the league min doubling so it's a living wage.

[Oldtimer]

My question is, can the league really afford such a large increase?

[jloome]

All but three lose money on paper, but that's on paper and after write-downs. I would expect the collectively massive pockets in this league could afford it, yes.

On top of that is the question of whether they can afford NOT to, given how quickly the USL is gaining in standard.

The bigger question is the roster size, because travel costs are always huge for sports teams. I'd expect them to compromise and add four or five spots, to 22 or 23. England is 24, I believe.

They might just do away with the DEV spots instead, given that all of the teams now have academies being set up.

[Beach_Red]

On top of that is the question of whether they can afford NOT to, given how quickly the USL is gaining in standard.




I think this is the real question, too. Not only is USL gaining, but expectation of MLS fans are increasing and if they aren't met they league wil start to lose what it's built so far.

Some of the weakest teams will complain, but the league is ready to move to the next level so they'll either have to step up or get left behind.

[JDG]

$5million isn't enough for a 28 man roster. We would be spending roughly the same as we already are on a per player basis. If we want to be more competitive, and increase the quality of play on the pitch, we need to be able to offer more money per player.
18 man roster - at least $5million
28 man roster - $7million or more.

[Toronto Ruffrider]

I think this is the real question, too. Not only is USL gaining, but expectation of MLS fans are increasing and if they aren't met they league wil start to lose what it's built so far.

Some of the weakest teams will complain, but the league is ready to move to the next level so they'll either have to step up or get left behind.

I agree. With demand for new franchises being as high as it is, there is no longer room for stragglers in MLS. The league can't afford to hold on to its liability teams.

[SLBuu]

I agree that a 28 man roster is too many players for a $5 million salary cap.

I think the league would do well to take a smaller step while rewarding the players they already have.

I say a $5 million salary cap with a 22 player roster is a good start.

[profit89]

$5 mil - 23 players

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I agree that a 28 man roster is too many players for a $5 million salary cap.

I think the league would do well to take a smaller step while rewarding the players they already have.

I say a $5 million salary cap with a 22 player roster is a good start.

pretty reasonable, i mean itd be dope to see 28 players and 7 million but i somehow doubt that this will happen, at very least its a step in the right direction, even 23 wouldnt be too bad

[rocker]

23 would be nice.

then you go from about a 122K average salary in a 2.2million cap to a 217K average in a 5 million cap.
with that kind of average you could certainly find 5 more pretty solid players.
5 guys would make a big difference.

[flatpicker]

Mo Money! Mo Money! Mo Money!!!

[profit89]

Essentially what we're talking about here is doubling the cap, which would effectively mean merging two current, non-DP teams and taking the best available 23 (or whatever the number of senior spots is set at)...

So, for example, a team could potentially look like this... (Toronto/Columbus example)...

------------Moreno---Dichio
Rogers---Guevara--Schelotto--Ricketts
--Brennan-- Padula--Marshall---Hejduk
---------------Stooge

Just a quick example. The bench would be half decent too: Noonan, Robinson, Ruiz etc.. (some are just as good and arguably better than the 11 shown, of course).. Still no decent goalie :)

Now that's the type of league I would definitely follow. Not a bad little team. Just throwing it out there... For whatever it's worth.

[jloome]

Essentially what we're talking about here is doubling the cap, which would effectively mean merging two current, non-DP teams and taking the best available 23 (or whatever the number of senior spots is set at)...

So, for example, a team could potentially look like this... (Toronto/Columbus example)...

------------Moreno---Dichio
Rogers---Guevara--Schelotto--Ricketts
--Brennan-- Padula--Marshall---Hejduk
---------------Stooge

Just a quick example. The bench would be half decent too: Noonan, Robinson, Ruiz etc.. (some are just as good and arguably better than the 11 shown, of course).. Still no decent goalie :)

Now that's the type of league I would definitely follow. Not a bad little team. Just throwing it out there... For whatever it's worth

Holy frijoles. MLS better get its scouting act together.

[TFCREDNWHITE]

They still need to adopt the "DP DOESN'T COUNT AGAINST THE CAP" rule that they will be voting on in November!

[profit89]

They still need to adopt the "DP DOESN'T COUNT AGAINST THE CAP" rule that they will be voting on in November!

for sure

[profit89]

i wonder if the international roster spots # would change... it would definitely have to be looked at.. cause that would be the only real obstacle to making a half decent team with a $5 mil cap

[profit89]

imo, all concacaf players should be excluded from counting towards the international roster spots. or at least some concessions should be made: allowed up to 5, then they start taking up the international spots

[netsan]

USL is about to change... will there be a Umbro Premier League?

"Umbro International owns 98% of USL. Nike is in the process of finalizing an acquisition of Umbro which is due to close early next month. Umbro will become a Nike affiliate company continuing to operate under the Umbro brand. In the event the acquisition is finalized as expected, Nike will own Umbro, which owns USL.

".. we believe that this development has the ability to be the catalyst that takes USL and its franchises to an even greater level of significance in the North American soccer landscape.. "

http://www.uslsoccer.com/insider/229134.html

[Ossington Mental Youth]

^^^^
Thats great news and surely something Garber has to take into consideration

[SLBuu]

imo, all concacaf players should be excluded from counting towards the international roster spots. or at least some concessions should be made: allowed up to 5, then they start taking up the international spots

i was thinking about this the other day and was wondering to myself.......

why wouldn't the league consider having Canadian and American players count as domestic. All concacaf players seems like a bit of a stretch but certainly American AND Canadian shouldn't be a problem.

[Corpand]

ooo sick news about USL.

[rocker]

why wouldn't the league consider having Canadian and American players count as domestic. All concacaf players seems like a bit of a stretch but certainly American AND Canadian shouldn't be a problem.

i heard it is the way it is because the US Soccer Fed was not interested in that because it might take away American jobs.
TFC was sort of a compromise.. although even with TFC there are guaranteed American jobs.

[SLBuu]

i heard it is the way it is because the US Soccer Fed was not interested in that because it might take away American jobs.


wells thats odd, i mean the NHL is littered with canadians and others playing in the U.S.

and plus... i dont think there would be enough Canadian talent to really impose any kind of threat to the american market. but thats just my opinion.

[rocker]

way back i was saying the same thing about making the two nations MLS teams are in as domestics. i loved the idea because it would distribute more canadians across more different training environments (rather than expecting MOJO to find all the Canadians and have them all under TFC's system). it could only help us as a nation.. but then Gazidis, the deputy commish, said USSF was against it so they compromised on the roster restrictions when TFC came in.

[TorCanSoc]

Roster spots, salaries, rise of USL... is it all moot when considering the profit picture. Only three teams made money last year LAG, FCD, and of course TFC. How long can all those teams sustain year after year losses? Will this league fold?

Leagues past have folded because of one thing, sustained losses. A lot of soccer loving b/m illionaires are doing great things for soccer in N.America. But there has to be a point where they just say enough is enough. Are we anywhere near there yet?

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Leagues past have folded because of one thing, sustained losses. A lot of soccer loving b/m illionaires are doing great things for soccer in N.America. But there has to be a point where they just say enough is enough. Are we anywhere near there yet?

Prob is that if they dont move forward they wont attract further viewers/supporters because play within the league will be limited and internationally (as recent results have shown) teams will fail/become stagnant

[troy1982]

imo, all concacaf players should be excluded from counting towards the international roster spots. or at least some concessions should be made: allowed up to 5, then they start taking up the international spots

That will against US labour laws ( no foreign citizen can have any advantage over another foreign citizen, it is also why canadians can't be counted as domestics for US teams).

[Oldtimer]

Roster spots, salaries, rise of USL... is it all moot when considering the profit picture. Only three teams made money last year LAG, FCD, and of course TFC. How long can all those teams sustain year after year losses? Will this league fold?




Don't worry. The "losses" were likely leaked to give the league leverage against the Players' Union in the upcoming CBA negotiations. They are based on some dodgy accounting IMO. When you count the SUM undistributed profits (which weren't counted by Forbes), most teams made money.

The real situation can be viewed by the value of franchises. Investors wouldn't be fighting over the right to pay $40 million and up if the league didn't have good profit potential. (In contrast, the NASL was reportedly selling franchises for $100,000. Even in 1970's dollars, that was pocket change).

[redcard]

Now we may be reading in to this too much, just because a team didnt make any money does not mean that they lost money either...

those other teams may have more the finished with no loss or profit...i cant see how the dynamo would been in a loss, columbus definitly in a loss.

so i dont think this league will fail, it just needs to relocate some teams...in to better markets...this could also mean garber likes the idea of ottawa montreal and vancouver considering how well TFC is doing.

[rocker]

years ago there was a prof named Zimbalist who investigated Major League Baseball. MLB was always talking about how many of the teams lost money. He investigated and found that it was all paper losses. because of the way teams recorded different types of earnings, they could present a loss in the core business while actually making money. So I will never believe any of that stuff til I see the balance sheets myself.
For example teams are shareholders in SUM marketing, the TV arm of MLS. How much you wanna bet the teams don't count that in their revenue streams.

[Oldtimer]

years ago there was a prof named Zimbalist who investigated Major League Baseball. MLB was always talking about how many of the teams lost money. He investigated and found that it was all paper losses. because of the way teams recorded different types of earnings, they could present a loss in the core business while actually making money. So I will never believe any of that stuff til I see the balance sheets myself.
For example teams are shareholders in SUM marketing, the TV arm of MLS. How much you wanna bet the teams don't count that in their revenue streams.

They didn't.