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Cashcleaner
09-29-2008, 03:30 AM
Anyone who has been watching Montreal hold its own well against some notable CONCACAF competitors (like Mexico's Atlante) has probably been made aware of two facts.

The first fact is that Canadian players are making headwaves throughout the confederation and earning the notice of clubs all over the world as they advance into the Group Stage of the CONCACAF Champions League.

The second fact is that none of these players currently belong on the roster of Toronto FC, but rather with the Montreal Impact, the team that beat out both the Vancouver Whitecaps and Toronto FC in the Nutrilite Canadian Championship to qualify for the CONCACAF tourney.

Montreal. The Impact. A team belonging to a league considered a tier well-below MLS in terms of talent and organisation. A team with a payroll only a fraction of ours here in Toronto and a single owner providing financial support, rather than an entertainment conglomerate with over a billion dollars in assets.

Now don't get me wrong, this isn't a post about me bitching about our ownership. Let's face it, MLSE took a chance at a soccer club here in Toronto and nobody could have predicted the financial success the club has been. What I do want to impress upon people is my belief that the more Canadian players we field for Toronto, the better off we could be.

Toronto has played with such little heart and has shown so little passion for much of the 2008 season. That's a fact that few here or on the other forums would argue. We're playing sluggish and reactionary soccer, with the exception of a few individuals:

Jim Brennan has been a solid captain from Day 1 and most definitely puts in the effort you would expect from a veteran footballer. I'm not going to go crazy here, because he's not an extraodinary defender/mid by any stretch - but in comparison to the rest of the league, he's definitely above-average. He's also Canadian - born a raised in Newmarket.

Greg Sutton has also been an anchor for the team since his arrival and many would agree his record for both the 07 and 08 seasons would be markedly improved if the club's defensive line wasn't so erratic and flat-out terribly overwhelmed at times. Unfortunately health issues have also had their effect on the keeper's performance and we may never get the full picture with regards to his potential within the club, but he has shown relative consistency dispite the various ups-and-downs. And yeah, he's a Canadian as well (Hamliton).

So there you have it. We have a team that has been somewhat embarassed by the other Canadian clubs, both of whom fielded several more Canadians over the course of the Nutrilite Canadian Championship than Toronto FC did and with one doing reasonably well in the Champions League compitition. It's also a team who's primary weakness has arguably been a distinct lack of initiative and passion.

So with all that noted and processed, what's a logical solution? More Canadian players, of course.

Shakes McQueen
09-29-2008, 07:05 AM
Keeping in mind that Montreal never actually beat us in the Nutrilite Canadian Championship, all I wonder when I see Montreal's stellar results in the CCL, is how well we might have done against sorry ass sides like Real Esteli.

Though there are some decent Canadians I would like to have for the right price, there are also scads of great internationals. You just have to find them.

Personally, I'm fine with the number of Canadians on our side.

One of my fears this summer, is that Mo will capitulate to demand for DeRo (since he's Canadian and awesome), and waste the DP slot on him, when he isn't even close to worth using a free slot under the cap.

- Scott

ensco
09-29-2008, 07:37 AM
Braz, Reda and Lombardo soured Mo on Canadians (excepting those like Brennan who are really British in terms of football pedigree!)

I agree with you 100%.

Maybe we need Canadian coaching too. Are there any Canadian coaches in NCAA that we should have on our radar screen?

nascarguy
09-29-2008, 07:55 AM
too much Canadian Content is not good

Fort York Redcoat
09-29-2008, 08:17 AM
As long as they keep giving Canadians trials I'm okay with a lower content than our Canadian competition. None of the Canadians given time on the pitch worked out. I'd like to see the club poaching Canadians from the USL teams that excel. It seems the natural progression.

ccopela
09-29-2008, 10:31 AM
I was fairly disappointed that Diaz Kambere didn't look that good in his 1 game with TFC. I was really impressed with him at the U-23 tournament. I hope Mo gives him another chance to prove himself. (a trial)

rocker
09-29-2008, 10:46 AM
i think any of montreal's canadians would not stand out on TFC.. but if you put them all together for a number of years, with a good coach, they can become a good "team" (that's the montreal formula). this is why just cherrypicking a canadian or two from that league will rarely work .... those USL guys need the team concept to look good individually. TFC needs to slow down with the roster changes, get this core playing together more and more, and then drop in a DP to push it further.

Fort York Redcoat
09-29-2008, 10:50 AM
i think any of montreal's canadians would not stand out on TFC.. but if you put them all together for a number of years, with a good coach, they can become a good "team" (that's the montreal formula). this is why just cherrypicking a canadian or two from that league will rarely work .... those USL guys need the team concept to look good individually. TFC needs to slow down with the roster changes, get this core playing together more and more, and then drop in a DP to push it further.

Agreed. The "poaching" scenario is one for the future. I don't know who their standout is but he like most players is likely to want a shot at more money and more exposure. Yes more exposure than the Champions League (I'm sorry to say)

trane
09-29-2008, 11:27 AM
I agree, with Cashcleaner, because ultimatley I think we have to build our team from our academy system, which should mean more Canadians, then on top we can get American and International player to complement them, but if we want to the team in this league for a long time, we need to build from our academy.

Ossington Mental Youth
09-29-2008, 11:30 AM
only prob with the academy system in theleague is that you can sign 1 player from your academy to your team and the rest are up for grabs to other teams.
Fucking backwards

Damien
09-29-2008, 11:32 AM
It will happen in time... but again, you have to give it time. For now we need the international roster spots to fill the void.

Look how many decent players came from the Toronto Lynx system... hopefully ours should prove even more valuable.

The number of registered soccer players per capita in the Toronto area is probably one of the highest (if not the highest) inside Canada and the USA. Am I wrong?

reggie
09-29-2008, 11:33 AM
J smith and otto velez,i think there are better players around in our local leagues...

Oldtimer
09-29-2008, 11:33 AM
i think any of montreal's canadians would not stand out on TFC.. but if you put them all together for a number of years, with a good coach, they can become a good "team" (that's the montreal formula). this is why just cherrypicking a canadian or two from that league will rarely work .... those USL guys need the team concept to look good individually. TFC needs to slow down with the roster changes, get this core playing together more and more, and then drop in a DP to push it further.

BINGO!

The key to MTL is that the play a system. They only have a few guys who could make it in MLS.

Toronto needs to have players familiar with each other before any system will work. The problem is that we still need to upgrade our roster (particularly in defense) so it will be a hard task. Getting it done BEFORE the pre-season will be key.

Azerban
09-29-2008, 11:37 AM
only prob with the academy system in theleague is that you can sign 1 player from your academy to your team and the rest are up for grabs to other teams.
Fucking backwards

This is actually a positive if you stop and think about it. Unless we produce more than 1 extraordinary talent in a year no one is going to bother trying to poach one of our players because they'd be considered internationals, and the doors to how many academies (don't remember how many haven't set them up yet) get opened to us to look though? Getting an American to play for us is far less painful than an American team signing a Canadian.

Not that I've ever heard of this rule before, but if it's like you describe it can't be terrible.

Roogsy
09-29-2008, 11:43 AM
BINGO!

The key to MTL is that the play a system. They only have a few guys who could make it in MLS.

Toronto needs to have players familiar with each other before any system will work. The problem is that we still need to upgrade our roster (particularly in defense) so it will be a hard task. Getting it done BEFORE the pre-season will be key.

I totally agree. Canadian or not, stability is the key. I wasn't a big fan of starting off the season with the team still in flux, and I am certainily hoping it doesn't happen again for 09.

trane
09-29-2008, 12:11 PM
I agree with most that is said here. I am not sure that the fact that we can only sign one of our academy players per year, is a positive. However, the point is that what I like, and I think most peopel like about Montreal is that they have a "team" that plays a specofoc system, and they have players taht fir into that system. Sure you can add a 'star' or two but what realy counts is that you have a solid team and system before you go out and sign these more tallented players. A collections of player , no matter how individualy talented they are, will not produce a winning team if they do not fit the system and each others style of play.

ccopela
09-29-2008, 12:18 PM
This is actually a positive if you stop and think about it. Unless we produce more than 1 extraordinary talent in a year no one is going to bother trying to poach one of our players because they'd be considered internationals, and the doors to how many academies (don't remember how many haven't set them up yet) get opened to us to look though? Getting an American to play for us is far less painful than an American team signing a Canadian.

Not that I've ever heard of this rule before, but if it's like you describe it can't be terrible.

The rule is that we're only allowed to sign 1 academy player per year to a DEVELOPMENTAL contract. We can offer them a Generation adidas contract but then that means we're not allowed to sign another academy player for 3 years. New York has this problem right now. They offered a dev. contract to one of their players and he turned it down so he could get a scholarship. Another guy in the New York academy has been linked with Europe and could go there for more money eventually or university as well. Right now University is a better option for academy players across the league then signing dev. contracts.

The Academy system needs to be reworked because there is no incentive on teams to actually invest in their academies if they can't easily bring players into their team. It's an incredibly stupid system as it stands now.

Ossington Mental Youth
09-29-2008, 12:24 PM
This is actually a positive if you stop and think about it. Unless we produce more than 1 extraordinary talent in a year no one is going to bother trying to poach one of our players because they'd be considered internationals, and the doors to how many academies (don't remember how many haven't set them up yet) get opened to us to look though? Getting an American to play for us is far less painful than an American team signing a Canadian.

Not that I've ever heard of this rule before, but if it's like you describe it can't be terrible.

I understand what you are saying but my issue with it is that we should be able to sign as many players as we want from our academy THAN let the other teams sign them. Inevitably there will be years when there are 2 or 3 players that are worth an international spot and we can only sign one.

Ossington Mental Youth
09-29-2008, 12:26 PM
The rule is that we're only allowed to sign 1 academy player per year to a DEVELOPMENTAL contract. We can offer them a Generation adidas contract but then that means we're not allowed to sign another academy player for 3 years. New York has this problem right now. They offered a dev. contract to one of their players and he turned it down so he could get a scholarship. Another guy in the New York academy has been linked with Europe and could go there for more money eventually or university as well. Right now University is a better option for academy players across the league then signing dev. contracts.

The Academy system needs to be reworked because there is no incentive on teams to actually invest in their academies if they can't easily bring players into their team. It's an incredibly stupid system as it stands now.

Thank you for the clarification.
Its horseshit (not what youre saying but the system, HA)

Blazer
09-29-2008, 12:27 PM
http://images.southparkstudios.com/media/images/602/602__image_09.jpg

Zidane10
09-29-2008, 12:37 PM
We need DeRo adn maybe Staltieri, but beyond that, more Canadian players wouldn't really help us, simplu because players from overseas are generally better.
However, if we got DeRo, we could have a killer midfield:

Johann Smith---DeRosario---Guevara---Ricketts

That would decimate the league!

Toronto Ruffrider
09-29-2008, 12:45 PM
I think TFC will be able to build a solid team of Canadians, but as others have noted, it will take time. Montreal has done well with its roster of bargain-priced Canadians, but that kind of success can't be purchased overnight.

In the short term, our international slots will be important. Until our academy bears fruit, we will have to rely on economical foreign players and the draft in order to fill our roster, and neither of these sources is deep in Canadian talent.

Once some of our academy players mature, it will be time for TFC to transition into more of a domestic team. International signings will always be important fixtures in our club, but in the long term they should be used to complement the team, not build it from scratch.

nascarguy
09-29-2008, 01:01 PM
We need DeRo adn maybe Staltieri, but beyond that, more Canadian players wouldn't really help us, simplu because players from overseas are generally better.
However, if we got DeRo, we could have a killer midfield:

Johann Smith---DeRosario---Guevara---Ricketts

That would decimate the league!

Marvell Wynne---Ricketts---Guevara---DeRosario

i ask wynne after the game how did he like being a midfielder he said he did not like it at all

Beach_Red
09-29-2008, 01:08 PM
BINGO!

The key to MTL is that the play a system. They only have a few guys who could make it in MLS.

Toronto needs to have players familiar with each other before any system will work. The problem is that we still need to upgrade our roster (particularly in defense) so it will be a hard task. Getting it done BEFORE the pre-season will be key.

Oh come on, are you saying you'd be happy if the season started and then guys like Ricketts, Guevara - even Robert (looked good at the time) - became available but TFC didn't go after them because they wanted the already signed players to "develop as a team?"

If every other team in the league continued to upgrade during transfer windows and this team did nothing this board would set my computer on fire.

The big problem is that BEFORE our season doesn't line up with the rest of the world and never will. We'll just need to adapt to that.

Cashcleaner
09-29-2008, 02:10 PM
Gotta say I'm a bit surprised. I was actually expecting completely different responses than you guys have given me. With luck, the academy program will indeed churn out some quality players for Toronto so it's not like we aren't heading in the right direction.

And yes, a DP slot would be wasted on De Rosario. I think he'd be a great addition to the club and would fetch a hefty price, but I'd only ever be okay with signing him under the Beckham rule if we had no other quality players interested in making a move to Toronto and in that case the slot would be wasted anyways.

And yes, Montreal didn't beat us out of the the Canadian Championships per se, but they held us to a draw in Toronto and beat Vancouver twice while we could only rack up a draw and a loss to the Whitecaps. No matter how you say it, though, they were the best Canadian club at the time and have been doing well for themselves in CONCACAF.

Ossington Mental Youth
09-29-2008, 02:24 PM
Id love to see more Canadian content but as of right now with current rules (and we are talking all encompassing rules including salary cap, transfers and academy) its just not going to happen

BakaGaijin
09-29-2008, 02:39 PM
The rule is that we're only allowed to sign 1 academy player per year to a DEVELOPMENTAL contract. We can offer them a Generation adidas contract but then that means we're not allowed to sign another academy player for 3 years. New York has this problem right now. They offered a dev. contract to one of their players and he turned it down so he could get a scholarship. Another guy in the New York academy has been linked with Europe and could go there for more money eventually or university as well. Right now University is a better option for academy players across the league then signing dev. contracts.

The Academy system needs to be reworked because there is no incentive on teams to actually invest in their academies if they can't easily bring players into their team. It's an incredibly stupid system as it stands now.

The system definately needs to be re-worked. However, I think it was set up this way to prevent one team from setting up an academy and poaching all the best players in the U.S. This issue would have to be addressed in any re-working of the academy structure.

greatwhitenorf
09-29-2008, 05:01 PM
Up the Canadian content? How about TFC lumber jackets at the merchandise stands? How about IPA in plastic stubbies at the beer stands? How about 'Seagull Surprise' or 'Pickerel-On-A-Stick' on the snack bar menus? Eh?

Paul Stalteri won't play here because of the turf. ANY decently talented Canadian who has a choice of playing on grass in Europe or elsewhere in MLS or playing on turf in Toronto, will opt for grass.

We - or even the smugly reassuring club ticket reps - can talk till all tomorrow's cows come home about bringing in Canadian Galacticos or DP Planet-Smashing Superstars or a even a squad of Daleks to upgrade our roster.

Say it any way you want, but here's the simple fact:

Until there is grass, the team will be dump.

The team will be dump until there is grass.

(Yoda voice)Dump the team will be, until grass there is.

VPjr
09-29-2008, 05:30 PM
Here's the reality....Montreal is a better TEAM that TFC and it appears they are being coached by a better coach than TFC. Limniatis might have his detractors (I've been told he's a prick) but he's found a way to improve the club in a very short time and in a very dramatic way. TFC is a group of individuals who might like each other but don't know how to play together. Why? Who really knows. In leagues like USL or MLS, where almost all the teams are mediocre (at best) based on Euro or South American standards, teams that play as a TEAM will win and disjointed squads like TFC will lose.

It amazes me how much people on the forums overestimate the quality of MLS players. I will agree that the best 50-100 players in MLS are better than almost any player in USL. After that, its debateable if there is any gap in quality. I'd argue with anyone that from roster spot 9-28, USL1 teams, in general, have better quality at those spots. Depth wins championships. It's no wonder MLS teams are flopping in CCC play (its not because they suck but because the USL teams are much deeper and have better quality players on the bench and in the reserves than virtually any MLS team).

Sandro Grande of the Impact is the best Canadian playing in Canada at the moment. He's better than Brennan, by a wide margin (in my opinion) and he should be brought into the CMNT to replace Imhof. He's exactly the kind of player who TFC should be bringing into the program. He's experienced, smart, talented, etc... If not for his history of injury problems, he would be back in Italy playing at a relatively high level but Montreal took a shot when he was out of a contract and it's paid off huge for them. He's a key ingredient to their success right now.

There is at least one other Canadian on Montreal's roster than I'd like to see with TFC and that's Felix Brillant. Some here are enamoured with a guy like Johann Smith but the reality is that Felix Brillant is pretty much the same type of player (a little bit smaller but full of pace and quite talented). They both have upside but I've actually seen Felix do a bunch of good things for the Impact in recent weeks (whereas Smith looks like a fast, flashy player who appears to have no clue how to actually play soccer). Smith is the equivalent of a basketball player who can dunk all day but doesn't know how to shoot, dribble or pass. He's an athlete who plays soccer, not a soccer player, IMO.

Right now, Braz would look like a good depth player for TFC too but I won't push my luck there. I know how much some people love Velez and James.

VPjr
09-29-2008, 05:38 PM
One of my fears this summer, is that Mo will capitulate to demand for DeRo (since he's Canadian and awesome), and waste the DP slot on him, when he isn't even close to worth using a free slot under the cap.

- Scott


Although I never (or almost never agree) with you on almost anything, I do somewhat agree with you on this. If they can get DeRo on a regular deal, great. I'd like him playing for TFC. In MLS, he's a proven winner and brings a quality that TFC lacks.

However, if they break the bank to bring DeRo in on a DP deal, I'll quit the team altogether and go support the local U14 side because then I know that Mo is certifiable.

You want to pay $1million + for a Canadian, you do whatever it takes to get Radzinski here. Those who don't understand the game will laugh but he's the Canadian equivalent of Juan Pablo Angel. He'll come in and make an immediate impact on the score sheet, that's for sure. He's past his prime but so is Schellotto and that's not stopping him from winning league MVP. MLS is not that good of a league. Radz would be a star in MLS.

trane
09-29-2008, 05:38 PM
^Sandro Grande is someone we should try to sign. Braz is not great, but he is better suited for the role he plays for Montreal a Materazzi type enforcer. He is not asked to do much more.

Ossington Mental Youth
09-29-2008, 05:55 PM
VPjr, you bring up some good/interesting points but please please please no Braz, not even at depth. He was way out of his league here last season. This isnt because i love Velez or James, its because hte dude is shit

RPB_Brantford_08
09-29-2008, 06:09 PM
Anyone who has been watching Montreal hold its own well against some notable CONCACAF competitors (like Mexico's Atlante) has probably been made aware of two facts.

The first fact is that Canadian players are making headwaves throughout the confederation and earning the notice of clubs all over the world as they advance into the Group Stage of the CONCACAF Champions League.

The second fact is that none of these players currently belong on the roster of Toronto FC, but rather with the Montreal Impact, the team that beat out both the Vancouver Whitecaps and Toronto FC in the Nutrilite Canadian Championship to qualify for the CONCACAF tourney.

Montreal. The Impact. A team belonging to a league considered a tier well-below MLS in terms of talent and organisation. A team with a payroll only a fraction of ours here in Toronto and a single owner providing financial support, rather than an entertainment conglomerate with over a billion dollars in assets.

Now don't get me wrong, this isn't a post about me bitching about our ownership. Let's face it, MLSE took a chance at a soccer club here in Toronto and nobody could have predicted the financial success the club has been. What I do want to impress upon people is my belief that the more Canadian players we field for Toronto, the better off we could be.

Toronto has played with such little heart and has shown so little passion for much of the 2008 season. That's a fact that few here or on the other forums would argue. We're playing sluggish and reactionary soccer, with the exception of a few individuals:

Jim Brennan has been a solid captain from Day 1 and most definitely puts in the effort you would expect from a veteran footballer. I'm not going to go crazy here, because he's not an extraodinary defender/mid by any stretch - but in comparison to the rest of the league, he's definitely above-average. He's also Canadian - born a raised in Newmarket.

Greg Sutton has also been an anchor for the team since his arrival and many would agree his record for both the 07 and 08 seasons would be markedly improved if the club's defensive line wasn't so erratic and flat-out terribly overwhelmed at times. Unfortunately health issues have also had their effect on the keeper's performance and we may never get the full picture with regards to his potential within the club, but he has shown relative consistency dispite the various ups-and-downs. And yeah, he's a Canadian as well (Hamliton).

So there you have it. We have a team that has been somewhat embarassed by the other Canadian clubs, both of whom fielded several more Canadians over the course of the Nutrilite Canadian Championship than Toronto FC did and with one doing reasonably well in the Champions League compitition. It's also a team who's primary weakness has arguably been a distinct lack of initiative and passion.

So with all that noted and processed, what's a logical solution? More Canadian players, of course.

5-7 years maybe more canadians but fans want a winner now and havinga ream of majority canadian players is not going to do that...see canadian national team results!! the canadian championship was a cup competition anything can happen, we had a win and a draw against Montreal, not bad,except the draw knocked us out. Having more Canadians playing will not increase initive and passion, see torontos NHL team mostly canadians
has that helped them? i know different spot but...? the academy will determine future canadian playing for TFC and lets hope thats sooner then later, but will take time.

netsan
09-29-2008, 09:43 PM
So many kids are playing soccer now. I expect that the arrival of TFC has inspired more kids to pursue the sport. Statistically speaking, we should expect a few good players emerge.

One thing about Canadians is that they play with heart. I rather have a team like that.

S_D
09-29-2008, 09:58 PM
One of my fears this summer, is that Mo will capitulate to demand for DeRo (since he's Canadian and awesome), and waste the DP slot on him, when he isn't even close to worth using a free slot under the cap.

- Scott

I am trying to figure out why everyone says Dero should be our DP when he is currently under contract at the league max until 2010.

If Dero gets traded here, why would he be given more money since he is already under contract? If he says I won't come unless you pay me more, fine I guess. But to give a guy a DP position for 8-10 goals? You'd be crazy to do that.

And to just give him more money just because he is here doesn't make sense.

Beach_Red
09-29-2008, 09:59 PM
One of my fears this summer, is that Mo will capitulate to demand for DeRo (since he's Canadian and awesome), and waste the DP slot on him, when he isn't even close to worth using a free slot under the cap.

- Scott

You know that is a scary possibility. It really sounds like MLSE - the Leafs have overpaid (and made crappy trades to get back) so many "fan favourites" I've lost track. And they've run so many decent players out of town because the fans got on their ass for who knows what reason.

Now would be a great time to be the agent of a Canadian soccer player...

Blizzard
09-29-2008, 10:01 PM
Although I never (or almost never agree) with you on almost anything, I do somewhat agree with you on this. If they can get DeRo on a regular deal, great. I'd like him playing for TFC. In MLS, he's a proven winner and brings a quality that TFC lacks.

However, if they break the bank to bring DeRo in on a DP deal, I'll quit the team altogether and go support the local U14 side because then I know that Mo is certifiable.

You want to pay $1million + for a Canadian, you do whatever it takes to get Radzinski here. Those who don't understand the game will laugh but he's the Canadian equivalent of Juan Pablo Angel. He'll come in and make an immediate impact on the score sheet, that's for sure. He's past his prime but so is Schellotto and that's not stopping him from winning league MVP. MLS is not that good of a league. Radz would be a star in MLS.

Seeing Radzinski in a TFC shirt would send me over the moon. I totally agree. He'd be a star in this league. He's got the smarts, skills and (enough) speed (left) to do wonderfully here. Pay him enough and perhaps he'd ignore the Field Turf for a year or two.

Agreed. Dero as a high paid non-DP as he is now in Houston.

S_D
09-29-2008, 10:10 PM
I wonder what it would take to pry Dero from Houston. I can definitley see a combination of draft picks, allocation cash and a cheapish American player (Smith?).

NateDoGG
09-29-2008, 10:23 PM
we will get dero in a year, i bet

Ossington Mental Youth
09-29-2008, 11:09 PM
Seeing Radzinski in a TFC shirt would send me over the moon. I totally agree. He'd be a star in this league. He's got the smarts, skills and (enough) speed (left) to do wonderfully here. Pay him enough and perhaps he'd ignore the Field Turf for a year or two.

Agreed. Dero as a high paid non-DP as he is now in Houston.

Razinski has also said he doesnt want to play on turf...

Ossington Mental Youth
09-29-2008, 11:11 PM
i hope the DP isnt Dero, i dont see it happening either (as previously mentioned he just resigned that 3 year contract, Houston would want alot for him and we have nothing to trade, itd just be too much for too little. Thats not to mention the fact that we already have Guevara in his position)

Cashcleaner
09-30-2008, 01:19 AM
5-7 years maybe more canadians but fans want a winner now and havinga ream of majority canadian players is not going to do that...see canadian national team results!! the canadian championship was a cup competition anything can happen, we had a win and a draw against Montreal, not bad,except the draw knocked us out. Having more Canadians playing will not increase initiative and passion, see torontos NHL team mostly canadians has that helped them? i know different spot but...? the academy will determine future canadian playing for TFC and lets hope thats sooner then later, but will take time.

The Canadian Cup competiton was more than just a simple home-and-away tourney, though. We had Vancouver to contend with as well and they gave us the harder time. I'd say that the competition even with the format it had (only 3 teams participating) was actually a fair gauge of the level of talent between the clubs.

As for the content of Canadians in hockey; I think it's hard to really make any comparisons, because Canadians dominate ALL teams in the NHL so there is a bit of parity created that way.

As for the academy, like I said, it's a step in the right direction, though I agree the way the league operates with the academies has the potential to create problems.

Mikey
09-30-2008, 07:26 AM
I dont know that we would do any better with eleven Canadians wearing matching shirts, than we do now.

What we need is a team thats plays....as a team.

Shakes McQueen
09-30-2008, 07:38 AM
see torontos NHL team mostly canadians
has that helped them?

Are you crazy? Canada by far exports most of the best hockey players in the NHL, and also the vast majority of NHL players, period (something like 60%).

It isn't even remotely comparable. Hockey Canada is also a well funded, well run association, that is the envy of the world as far as hockey goes. The CSA is a pile of dogshit.

The fact that the Leafs suck is just due to mismanagement and poor drafting. Not every Canadian player can be a Sidney Crosby.

- Scott

Beach_Red
09-30-2008, 09:35 AM
Are you crazy? Canada by far exports most of the best hockey players in the NHL, and also the vast majority of NHL players, period (something like 60%).

It isn't even remotely comparable. Hockey Canada is also a well funded, well run association, that is the envy of the world as far as hockey goes. The CSA is a pile of dogshit.

The fact that the Leafs suck is just due to mismanagement and poor drafting. Not every Canadian player can be a Sidney Crosby.

- Scott

Well, you know, it used to be 100% so we'll see how far below 60% it goes.

It's better for hockey overall that Canadians no longer dominate - as much as I wish we did.

TorCanSoc
09-30-2008, 11:22 AM
....crickets chirping.

Radzinski. Great over the years. But a resounding no for our DP.

Cashcleaner
10-01-2008, 01:46 AM
^ Agreed. A couple years back it would be a different story, but his not DP material now. A non-DP signing would be somewhat intriguing, though.

Axeman
10-01-2008, 02:58 AM
Anyone who has been watching Montreal hold its own well against some notable CONCACAF competitors (like Mexico's Atlante) has probably been made aware of two facts.

The first fact is that Canadian players are making headwaves throughout the confederation and earning the notice of clubs all over the world as they advance into the Group Stage of the CONCACAF Champions League.

The second fact is that none of these players currently belong on the roster of Toronto FC, but rather with the Montreal Impact, the team that beat out both the Vancouver Whitecaps and Toronto FC in the Nutrilite Canadian Championship to qualify for the CONCACAF tourney.

Montreal. The Impact. A team belonging to a league considered a tier well-below MLS in terms of talent and organisation. A team with a payroll only a fraction of ours here in Toronto and a single owner providing financial support, rather than an entertainment conglomerate with over a billion dollars in assets.

Now don't get me wrong, this isn't a post about me bitching about our ownership. Let's face it, MLSE took a chance at a soccer club here in Toronto and nobody could have predicted the financial success the club has been. What I do want to impress upon people is my belief that the more Canadian players we field for Toronto, the better off we could be.

Toronto has played with such little heart and has shown so little passion for much of the 2008 season. That's a fact that few here or on the other forums would argue. We're playing sluggish and reactionary soccer, with the exception of a few individuals:

Jim Brennan has been a solid captain from Day 1 and most definitely puts in the effort you would expect from a veteran footballer. I'm not going to go crazy here, because he's not an extraodinary defender/mid by any stretch - but in comparison to the rest of the league, he's definitely above-average. He's also Canadian - born a raised in Newmarket.

Greg Sutton has also been an anchor for the team since his arrival and many would agree his record for both the 07 and 08 seasons would be markedly improved if the club's defensive line wasn't so erratic and flat-out terribly overwhelmed at times. Unfortunately health issues have also had their effect on the keeper's performance and we may never get the full picture with regards to his potential within the club, but he has shown relative consistency dispite the various ups-and-downs. And yeah, he's a Canadian as well (Hamliton).

So there you have it. We have a team that has been somewhat embarassed by the other Canadian clubs, both of whom fielded several more Canadians over the course of the Nutrilite Canadian Championship than Toronto FC did and with one doing reasonably well in the Champions League compitition. It's also a team who's primary weakness has arguably been a distinct lack of initiative and passion.

So with all that noted and processed, what's a logical solution? More Canadian players, of course.

Fucking Right Brother!
More Canadian Content!
Only Canadians know what it's like to have an MLS team like TFC.
I disagree on one point, Jim Brennan has been an extrodinary Captain for us! Solid, do anything for the team! I get pissed off when Whinners! say that we defend him to much. I believe we don't defend him enough!
DC, fuck OK! If we told him he's a striker now the guy wouldn't complain!
Makes the MLS all-star! and we don't count him as elite! Fuck That!
But Man I'm with You!
All the Threads and Posts I see that say things like lack of heart?
Guess What! Canadian's(True Canadians) dont lack these qualities, Were not France for Christ Sakes!
Candians know what it's like to love soccer and not get respected for it!
To bring in more Canadians that lack(god Forbid) European experience, and love Canada would be a good thing in my book!
More Canadian's for Canada's Pro Team!
You Fucking Right!:canada:

Cashcleaner
10-01-2008, 03:08 AM
^ I don't actually know if you're being sarcastic or not!!! :noidea:

Axeman
10-01-2008, 03:09 AM
No Fucking Sarcasm!!
When it comes to my Country I don't Fucking Joke!

Cashcleaner
10-01-2008, 03:16 AM
^ Now was THAT sarcasm? :D

Fuck it! I like you're style, Axeman!

TorCanSoc
10-01-2008, 05:42 AM
One thing about Canadians is that they play with heart. I rather have a team like that.

...this is an absolute truth.

Our American players are stunned by the support we give TFC. Latin and Britsh players are surprised by it. Our Canadians feel it, and genuinely appreciate the support, and inturn put it all on the field to the best of their abilities. I know others play with heart, ie Robbo and Dichio. When our Canadian boys play with grit, determination and heart, it seems to strike a louder chord.

Fairly obvious to say, the problem is that heart is just not enough. Heart will buy you respect and admiration, but not goals.

ensco
10-01-2008, 06:39 AM
.......

.......

Right now, Braz would look like a good depth player for TFC too

There I was, nodding in agreement with everything you were saying....and you finish with this?

:eek:

invictusTFC
10-01-2008, 08:04 AM
Montreal's success has nothing to do with the fact that their players are Canadian. It has everything to do with coaching and the fact that those players have bought into a system. That same team playing under Mo, Carver or any other coach might not be as successful.

TFC can go get every player presently on the CMNT and if they don't buy into Carver's system the team won't go anywhere. Just look at how much success Dale Mitchell is having.

The problem with TFC isn't going to be solved by throwing some Canadian content into the mix. At the moment we have a collection of talented players who cannot function cohesively or collectively as a team.

Ossington Mental Youth
10-01-2008, 08:35 AM
what i want to know is where did it go wrong as we played several games, more than several in which it was a functional system, we got hit with 8 games in 24 days, injuries adn internationals and it all falls to shit, im not ready to blame it all on carver just yet

SilverSamurai
10-01-2008, 09:00 AM
Montreal's success has nothing to do with the fact that their players are Canadian. It has everything to do with coaching and the fact that those players have bought into a system. That same team playing under Mo, Carver or any other coach might not be as successful.

TFC can go get every player presently on the CMNT and if they don't buy into Carver's system the team won't go anywhere. Just look at how much success Dale Mitchell is having.

The problem with TFC isn't going to be solved by throwing some Canadian content into the mix. At the moment we have a collection of talented players who cannot function cohesively or collectively as a team.

4-5-1 anyone?
Does anyone know of other formations? I mean obviously no others exist... :rolleyes:

invictusTFC
10-01-2008, 11:27 AM
what i want to know is where did it go wrong as we played several games, more than several in which it was a functional system, we got hit with 8 games in 24 days, injuries adn internationals and it all falls to shit, im not ready to blame it all on carver just yet

At the same time the argument can be made that we got our victories in the early stages of the season when many teams were still getting their footing. Many teams improved as the season went on where as our play declined drastically.

I'm not prepared to completely blame this on Carver, but he demonstrated during the course of the season that he couldn't right the ship and that he simply ran out of solutions.

Axeman
10-02-2008, 07:00 PM
Montreal's success has nothing to do with the fact that their players are Canadian. It has everything to do with coaching and the fact that those players have bought into a system. That same team playing under Mo, Carver or any other coach might not be as successful.

TFC can go get every player presently on the CMNT and if they don't buy into Carver's system the team won't go anywhere. Just look at how much success Dale Mitchell is having.

The problem with TFC isn't going to be solved by throwing some Canadian content into the mix. At the moment we have a collection of talented players who cannot function cohesively or collectively as a team.

We sign players that will only play under certain circumstances or have no heart or desire to be here and we defend them and blame Canadian's for not being talented enough, yet Montreal does it with Canadian's in a tier-2 league? Just cause Dale Mitchell is a Douchebag doesn't mean Canadian's don't have the talent or skill to qualify for the WC and the Impact are proving it.
Carver + Canadian's with heart and skill = playoffs next year, that's my bet! :canada:

invictusTFC
10-03-2008, 08:39 AM
We sign players that will only play under certain circumstances or have no heart or desire to be here and we defend them and blame Canadian's for not being talented enough, yet Montreal does it with Canadian's in a tier-2 league? Just cause Dale Mitchell is a Douchebag doesn't mean Canadian's don't have the talent or skill to qualify for the WC and the Impact are proving it.
Carver + Canadian's with heart and skill = playoffs next year, that's my bet! :canada:

Don't misinterpret what I was trying to say. In no way am I arguing that Canadians don't have talent. I would love to see more Canadian content on this team. Who wouldn't want to see DeRo, JDG, Serioux or Hutchinson on this team? The point I was trying to make is that the current roster has struggled under John Carver's system. He has obviously failed to motivate these players and get them to play as a cohesive unit. This makes me wonder if he has what it takes to coach in this league.

Now, even though I have my reservations, I'm not prepared to discount JC altogether. This may simply be a character problem with the players we currently have (which is a bigger evil IMO. Does this mean we have to start from scratch yet again?). I respect JC's passion, but if the problem lies with him, it will not matter how many talented Canadians we have in the lineup. The results will ultimately be the same.

Beach_Red
10-03-2008, 08:56 AM
I'm not prepared to completely blame this on Carver, but he demonstrated during the course of the season that he couldn't right the ship and that he simply ran out of solutions.

It was very frustrating this season to watch the team go from deadly on set pieces to walking around looking confused, yelling at each other to change position and then just wasting the opportunity.

I want to think a lot of this season was Carver getting to know his team, trying lots of different things, and getting to know the league.

These final four games should let us know if he's got any solutions.

Lucky Strike
10-03-2008, 10:32 AM
Keeping in mind that Montreal never actually beat us in the Nutrilite Canadian Championship, all I wonder when I see Montreal's stellar results in the CCL, is how well we might have done against sorry ass sides like Real Esteli.

Though there are some decent Canadians I would like to have for the right price, there are also scads of great internationals. You just have to find them.

Personally, I'm fine with the number of Canadians on our side.

One of my fears this summer, is that Mo will capitulate to demand for DeRo (since he's Canadian and awesome), and waste the DP slot on him, when he isn't even close to worth using a free slot under the cap.

- Scott

+1 on ALL COUNTS, particular on the DeRosario thing. Sure he's good (very good in fact), but our DP ought to be a game-changer and have a strong presence in every match in which he plays.

I'm completely against a Canadian DP, I don't feel there is one good enough to be that man.

NF-FC
10-03-2008, 11:09 AM
I wouldn't want Dero or Radz as a DP. Dero has been less effective the past few years, he just isn't worth DP money. I also don't think Radz would play with the passion everyone is talking about. The only way we are going to get a quality DP is to drive a dump truck full of money (we're talking probably about 4 million a year) to JDG's house. He's a talented Canadian who plays with heart and would be worth every cent of a DP contract

Zidane10
10-03-2008, 12:50 PM
. The only way we are going to get a quality DP is to drive a dump truck full of money (we're talking probably about 4 million a year) to JDG's house. He's a talented Canadian who plays with heart and would be worth every cent of a DP contract
Agreed.

VPjr
10-03-2008, 09:15 PM
^Sandro Grande is someone we should try to sign. Braz is not great, but he is better suited for the role he plays for Montreal a Materazzi type enforcer. He is not asked to do much more.


I wouldn't want Dero or Radz as a DP. Dero has been less effective the past few years, he just isn't worth DP money. I also don't think Radz would play with the passion everyone is talking about. The only way we are going to get a quality DP is to drive a dump truck full of money (we're talking probably about 4 million a year) to JDG's house. He's a talented Canadian who plays with heart and would be worth every cent of a DP contract

I disagree. Radz plays with a lot of passion. He was loved last year at Xanthi in Greece for the way he really took command of that team on the field and would often carry them to good results. He'd still be there if not for family considerations. They'd love to have him back next year.

Julian ain't coming to MLS....yet! He'd be wasting his talent....I know people don't like to hear it but he's too good for MLS. He needs to stay in Spain and eventually earn the reputation of best Canadian professional footballer, possibly ever. When he's 31 or 32, then we'll see him come home and I'll welcome him then with open arms.

Right now, Radz is the only Canadian worthy of a modestly priced DP contract (i.e. $1million to 1.5 million per year for 2 years). Of course, JDG and Atiba are better right now but they aren't leaving Europe while they've still got fists full of options open to them in Europe