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Ben Knight
09-10-2008, 11:39 AM
The city of Montreal is getting a web-load of hysterical grief from Canadian soccer fans in the wake of 2-1 loss to Honduras in World Cup qualifying on the shredded, disintegrating turf of Stade Saputo.

Almost all of it is unfair.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080910.WBsoccerblog20080910123937/WBStory/WBsoccerblog/


:-)

UltraFootyKWC
09-10-2008, 11:43 AM
This link doesn't seem to be working for me

Ben Knight
09-10-2008, 11:45 AM
Fixed it!

denime
09-10-2008, 11:45 AM
Ben that link still doesn't work!!

This link is for On Soccer and it works
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs/soccerblog

denime
09-10-2008, 12:48 PM
Now it's Fixed :)

ensco
09-10-2008, 01:14 PM
Ben

The unspoken question is... will Quebeckers support any Canadian national team, in any sport, on which there are no prominent Quebecois?

I think not.

Ben Knight
09-10-2008, 01:20 PM
No, Ensco, I don't think that's it at all.

First of all, the words "Quebecker" and "Montrealer" are two very different things. We're only talking about 13,000 seats. I don't think we have to go all the way to Chicoutimi to fill them.

If Montreal soccer fans get motivated to do what Toronto fans did for the Jamaica game, there is a way to improve all this.

And if the CSA could get off its bureaucratic butts and find ways to make our finest players household names, that would sell a some tickets too.

I'm not opposed to visiting fans being in the stadium. I just want to see Canadian fans organized and motivated enough to beat them to most of the seats.

Maple Leaf Red
09-10-2008, 01:22 PM
Ben's wrong. A lot of it is the Montreal fans fault. Even the Canadian fans that had nothing to do with the Vs or Supporters Groups in Toronto wore red and made noise.

Don't get me wrong, the CSA deserves the brunt of the criticism but let's not put lipstick on the pig.

werewolf
09-10-2008, 01:23 PM
it doesn't really give any reasons to why is was unfair, other then "i'm not convinced". And then follows with -


What happened in Montreal, I think, is simple: the Honduran fans wanted it more.
When the tickets came available, the Canadian fans weren't organized, and Hondurans from a thousand miles around pounced. Who can blame them? I travelled hundreds of miles for this match, why shouldn't they?
It's a simple question of organization. Toronto fans had a plan, and the numbers to pull it off. Montreal had neither.


So its not supposed to be Montreal's fault....but then it follows with the problems that Montreal had versus Toronto. Whose fault is it then?

p.s. Apparently you didn't interact (non-violently) with the security and police much personally...

Beach_Red
09-10-2008, 01:34 PM
No, Ensco, I don't think that's it at all.

First of all, the words "Quebecker" and "Montrealer" are two very different things. We're only talking about 13,000 seats. I don't think we have to go all the way to Chicoutimi to fill them.

If Montreal soccer fans get motivated to do what Toronto fans did for the Jamaica game, there is a way to improve all this.

And if the CSA could get off its bureaucratic butts and find ways to make our finest players household names, that would sell a some tickets too.

I'm not opposed to visiting fans being in the stadium. I just want to see Canadian fans organized and motivated enough to beat them to most of the seats.

Okay, I lived in Montreal for the first 30 years of my life and I wish you were right about support for a Canadian team with no prominent Quebecois on it, but I don't think so.

Now, if the stadium was as far from downtown Montreal but to the west instead of the east - maybe. And it's still a big maybe.

Ben Knight
09-10-2008, 02:46 PM
Okay, I don't live in Montreal, so explain this to me.

Stade Saputo lies as far to the east of the main Metro interchange at Berri-UQUM as the old Montreal Forum lies to the west. How hard is it -- really -- to get there? McGill to the stadium seemed like nothing the other night.

Boris
09-10-2008, 02:50 PM
one major issue is that here in Toronto we have plenty of supporters groups who were willing to finally put their money where their mouths are and bought up a shitload of tickets. What we saw here in Toronto, I think to a certain degree was done because of the local clubs.

As far as the montreal supporters groups go, im no expert but i am sure they do not match the numbers that we do in canada.

That, along with having no pre-sales and what not and the fact that the game appeared to us as a sell out all contributed to a lacklustre night.

AL-MO
09-10-2008, 03:07 PM
Lets get this straight guys...the problem with the stadium being over run by Hondurans, is not because of the City of Montreal, it was HOW the tickets were organized. Simple as that. If you open up tickets to everyone than anything can happen. Blame falls on the CSA, Quebec Soccer Federation, and Admission.

Boris
09-10-2008, 03:11 PM
Lets get this straight guys...the problem with the stadium being over run by Hondurans, is not because of the City of Montreal, it was HOW the tickets were organized. Simple as that. If you open up tickets to everyone than anything can happen. Blame falls on the CSA, Quebec Soccer Federation, and Admission.

thats what i was getting at with the second half of my post. We had the luxury of presales and all that. Can you imagine what BMO would have been like if we all had to buy tickets on the same day......I bet the RPB alone would not have had 700 tickets

AL-MO
09-10-2008, 03:14 PM
thats what i was getting at with the second half of my post. We had the luxury of presales and all that. Can you imagine what BMO would have been like if we all had to buy tickets on the same day......I bet the RPB alone would not have had 700 tickets

yeah the 'maicans would have had alot more tickets!

Red Rat
09-10-2008, 03:16 PM
Just give us grass....

Good piece Ben.

Boris
09-10-2008, 03:18 PM
yeah the 'maicans would have had alot more tickets!

and everyone would have been calling for Toronto's head.

Beach_Red
09-10-2008, 03:21 PM
Okay, I don't live in Montreal, so explain this to me.

Stade Saputo lies as far to the east of the main Metro interchange at Berri-UQUM as the old Montreal Forum lies to the west. How hard is it -- really -- to get there? McGill to the stadium seemed like nothing the other night.

The thing is, the cente of Montreal isn't The Main anymore, it's a lot farther west, the Decarie at least. The vast majority of people who live west of downtown, NDG, Montreal West and the whole west island never go east of downtown.

They used to go to baseball games at Olympic stadium and when they stopped going - for a lot of reasons, but the distance to travel to the stadium was one of the main ones because if you're on the west island first you have to get to the Metro - the team couldn't get enough support to stay in Montreal.

Chances are good that Saputo won't be able to get any west island support, either, and that's where most of the support for Canada would come from.

Did you see any Canadian flags east of downtown Montreal? Are there any at Saputo for Impact games?

I hope I'm wrong about this, but I don't think there will ever be much support for Canada at that stadium. It may be a factor with an MLS team as well, we'll see.

Boris
09-10-2008, 03:26 PM
honestly, if distance has anything to do with no support....thats just a poor mans excuse...im sorry

Ben Knight
09-10-2008, 03:26 PM
Great post, Beach Red.

Against all that, though -- it's only 13,000 tickets. If these players meant something to more Canadians, it couldn't be that hard to fill them.

Beach_Red
09-10-2008, 03:40 PM
Yes, you're right, properly marketed it should be easy to get 13,000 Canadian fans out to a game in Montreal - even in the east end.

I hope it may be changing, and every time I go back to Montreal (couple times a year) I convince myself it is, but there was a time through the '80's and into 90's that Montreal was a divided city. People sometimes say that politics is the national sport of Quebec, so imagine how crappy that would be day after day. Back then it felt like every little thing you did was a political statement of some kind.

So, it's not just how far people have to travel to the stadium, it's where they have to travel to.

What really needs to happen is for the national team to play half a dozen sold out games in Toronto with big, loud Canadian support. Then Montreal, being Montreal, will want in on it.

It's just too bad they couldn't play at Molson Stadium....

Boris
09-10-2008, 03:42 PM
i dont want to get into the whole political real of things but in spain, the people from madrid would travel to catalan if it means supporting their team and in spain, politics is their national sport....

Beach_Red
09-10-2008, 03:51 PM
How far would the people of Madrid travel for a hockey game with no Spanish players on the team?

That's essentially what we're up against here. I think over the next few years we're going to see big changes, but right now the Canadian national soccer team is a low priority - and in Quebec even more so.

Ensco's original point was how to sell tickets in Quebec for a team from Canada with no Quebecois stars. That might even be a tough sell for hockey.

I wish poilitics played no part of it, but it does. You can live in Quebec, even in lots of Montreal, and not even know you are part of Canada.

I just think if Montreal wants to host national team games they should have to earn that right.

mr k
09-10-2008, 04:08 PM
not sure what you classify as stars but Bernier & Gerba are from Montreal.

Boris
09-10-2008, 04:52 PM
How far would the people of Madrid travel for a hockey game with no Spanish players on the team?

That's essentially what we're up against here. I think over the next few years we're going to see big changes, but right now the Canadian national soccer team is a low priority - and in Quebec even more so.

Ensco's original point was how to sell tickets in Quebec for a team from Canada with no Quebecois stars. That might even be a tough sell for hockey.

I wish poilitics played no part of it, but it does. You can live in Quebec, even in lots of Montreal, and not even know you are part of Canada.

I just think if Montreal wants to host national team games they should have to earn that right.

the hockey comparison doesnt work....basketball would and you would still see a good number come out....but thats not the issue.

Beach_Red
09-10-2008, 05:08 PM
the hockey comparison doesnt work....basketball would and you would still see a good number come out....but thats not the issue.

No. What is the issue again?;)

Not enough Canadians came out to support the team in Montreal. There are lots of reasons for it, all true to a greater or lesser extent, and all have to be dealt with for future games.

Patriotism has always been a little, oh let's say, understated in Canada and public support for anything too Canadian is rarely seen in Quebec. This is nothing new and we shouldn't be surprised or upset about it.

What's happening now at BMO with TFC games is something new for Canada and I like it. I've been to many hockey games at the old Forum in Montreal, baseball games at the Big O and even CFL football games there and never once did I hear people singing the national anthem. I can't imagine a Montreal sports crowd holding up red scarves and singing Oh Canada.

But things are changing, so you never know. Many people never thought they'd see Canada play a 'home' game and we saw it in Toronto and we'll see it again.

Anything's possible.

Boris
09-10-2008, 05:12 PM
thats the thing. Things are changing. We worked hard to get the pro Canada crowd in Toronto. Im not saying its going to be an easy task in montreal, and i know at first its mostly uphill, but it can and will happen.

Redcoe15
09-10-2008, 05:42 PM
I'm would think that you can get a pro Canadian crowd over at Saputo Stadium for a Canada men's soccer match. The Canadian Soccer Association needs to do a better job at how they market an event like a World Cup qualifier, or in the way they distribute the tickets.

Did I just offer encouragement to the CSA? FUCK IT!!! Git me some dyn-ee-mite and blow dem up reel good!!!

ensco
09-10-2008, 05:57 PM
Ben

I enjoy your work. This is an interesting discussion. I'd like to elaborate.

Like Beach Red, I was born in Montreal and live in Toronto. Agreed: "Montrealers" are not "Quebeckers", but they sure as heck aren't "Torontonians" either.

The main point you are making is that we only need 13,000 hardcore supporters, and as they exist in Toronto, they must exist in Montreal. I don't think so.

When the Canadian men's Olympic or world junior hockey teams are selected, the Montreal media (even the english media) are obsessed with "how many Quebeckers" made the team. I think the populace (both French and a good chunk of the English) would turn their back on that team, if the Quebecois representation weren't sufficient.

Fine, you say. What about the anglo and other ethnic supporters? Well, you have to realize how much the composition of the population in Montreal has changed over the last 30 years. The anglophone minority is a lot smaller. Only approx 500,000 (ie 15% or so of Montreal's 3.5 million people) identify themselves as of English descent. That's about the population of London Ontario. As for other ethnic groups, they're principally francophone.

Further, while anglophones still live in the anglo enclaves in Westmount, NDG and the west island, they're very assimilated otherwise - they're mostly bilingual, and they're very much Quebecois in terms of many cultural habits - eating late, smoking, living together as opposed to marriage, and not caring all that much about sports.

On this last point - "Montrealers" as sports fans are front-running bandwagon jumpers, no two ways about it. Hockey is different, but even then, if the team is bad, Montrelers of all stripes stay away - the Molson Centre was half empty most nights from 1999-2004, when the Habs were lousy. And let's face it, until proven otherwise, the CMNT is not a "good" team.

As Beach Red noted, Saputo is deep in the east end (ie francophone Montreal). Don't kid yourself - "distance" in this case is about more than how far it is on the metro from Westmount.

The Impact have significant associations for Quebecois - the jersey, the requirements for French Canadian players etc. Support for them does not mean the same things that TFC support does for the CMNT.

I'll stop to catch my breath there. I could go on!

jloome
09-10-2008, 06:23 PM
Ben

I enjoy your work. This is an interesting discussion. I'd like to elaborate.

Like Beach Red, I was born in Montreal and live in Toronto. Agreed: "Montrealers" are not "Quebeckers", but they sure as heck aren't "Torontonians" either.

The main point you are making is that we only need 13,000 hardcore supporters, and as they exist in Toronto, they must exist in Montreal. I don't think so.

When the Canadian men's Olympic or world junior hockey teams are selected, the Montreal media (even the english media) are obsessed with "how many Quebeckers" made the team. I think the populace (both French and a good chunk of the English) would turn their back on that team, if the Quebecois representation weren't sufficient.

Fine, you say. What about the anglo and other ethnic supporters? Well, you have to realize how much the composition of the population in Montreal has changed over the last 30 years. The anglophone minority is a lot smaller. Only approx 500,000 (ie 15% or so of Montreal's 3.5 million people) identify themselves as of English descent. That's about the population of London Ontario. As for other ethnic groups, they're principally francophone.

Further, while anglophones still live in the anglo enclaves in Westmount, NDG and the west island, they're very assimilated otherwise - they're mostly bilingual, and they're very much Quebecois in terms of many cultural habits - eating late, smoking, living together as opposed to marriage, and not caring all that much about sports.

On this last point - "Montrealers" as sports fans are front-running bandwagon jumpers, no two ways about it. Hockey is different, but even then, if the team is bad, Montrelers of all stripes stay away - the Molson Centre was half empty most nights from 1999-2004, when the Habs were lousy. And let's face it, until proven otherwise, the CMNT is not a "good" team.

As Beach Red noted, Saputo is deep in the east end (ie francophone Montreal). Don't kid yourself - "distance" in this case is about more than how far it is on the metro from Westmount.

The Impact have significant associations for Quebecois - the jersey, the requirements for French Canadian players etc. Support for them does not mean the same things that TFC support does for the CMNT.

I'll stop to catch my breath there. I could go on!

Very astute Ensco, I grew up dans les Canton de l'est -- well, partially, anyway -- and can attest that a) convenience has always been a factor in attendance. Just ask the Allouettes; and b) the winning mentality factor is huge. Just ask the Expos.

There's a third issue here, however, which is always being glossed over: Saputo has, traditionally, given away thousands upon thousands of tickets to Impact games. Like, up to 6,000 per game, with the rationale that they're already paid for through sponsorships, particularly the government. So the initial proposal that Montreal is a hotbed of soccer support is pretty flimsy. In fact, if you take away the freebees, they have the same kind of USL attendance as Vancouver, Seattle, Portland and other similar-sized cities with grade c soccer.
Combine all those factors and I'd be surprised, without a Quebecois star player, if the nats could EVER sell out Saputo.

On the other issue, if anyone wants to know what a nightmare it's like staging games without presales, ask the CSA: they've done it twice in Edmonton, and both times more than 15,000 fans have missed the first half of the game waiting in line (in the rain, both times.)

And of course, being the CSA, they then refused to discount tickets until the second half was well underway.

massive_magpie
09-10-2008, 06:32 PM
I'm probably not alone when I say I was embarassed with the Costa Rican friendly last year. My reaction to that was to bring/sell/market many more people to the Jamaica game, a reaction I bet that is not unique.

That being said, the Montreal game was a fuckup of astronomical proportions (for very very many reasons). However I think that a similar reaction that the Toronto supporters had will happen in Montreal, and that the next game will be successful.

The unfortunate issue below everything that went wrong is that we (the Canadian supporters) have to go beyond being great fans and as volunteers fill in to replace an Association (with paid employees) that was created/is trusted to handle all of these issues.

Ben Knight
09-10-2008, 10:34 PM
Fascinating conversation, Ensco. i'm glad we're having it.

Okay. West Island is English, East Island French. I'm not sure how much of a barrier that is?

I live in a city where the dominant culture changes every six blocks. I didn't see anything in and around Viau Metro station that made me uncomfortable to be English-Canadian.

I know the differences are there -- but cutting across the Olympic site to get to a soccer stadium?

Steve
09-11-2008, 08:05 AM
Ben's wrong. A lot of it is the Montreal fans fault. Even the Canadian fans that had nothing to do with the Vs or Supporters Groups in Toronto wore red and made noise.

Don't get me wrong, the CSA deserves the brunt of the criticism but let's not put lipstick on the pig.

Yep, a lot of fans wore red in Toronto and made noise. Now, imagine that game in Toronto if TFC didn't exist. TFC has brought more people to soccer (me for one), has raised the profile of the national team, and, perhaps most importantly, taught the average Toronto soccer fan how to BE a fan. TFC started off with a bang, and everyone there wanted to be part of the action, not necessarily a bystander. This meant that people wanted to wear red (because they saw everyone else doing it) and make noise, and contribute. Sure, there are "prawn sandwich eaters" but on the whole, the crowd at BMO is MUCH more vocal than any other toronto sports team (and I'm not just talking about the supporters' groups).

What that means, is everyone who has been exposed to BMO, and gets a ticket for a national team game, knows the score. They know to wear red, that there will be chanting, to make noise, to make the opposition uncomfortable. They are used to a certain quality in the stands, and so perpetuate that quality. In Montreal they don't have that (yet). The impact just aren't at that level (and I'm not talking about on the pitch, obviously). They don't have many supporters' groups driving ticket sales, or casual fans paying attention. They don't have the interest and excitement of the city. So any fan that DOES go to the game is not going as a veteran soccer fan, but as an observer. Can that change? I hope so. I hope the Impact can get into MLS and explode. If they do, I have no doubt that future Canadian soccer matches in Montreal will be much better. If they don't... I would keep the matches away (because I think we would have better luck elsewhere).

Fort York Redcoat
09-11-2008, 09:31 AM
I just want to remind people that Saputo looked a lot better v St Vincents. They had a template to improve from and they took a step backwards.

ensco
09-11-2008, 10:07 AM
Fascinating conversation, Ensco. i'm glad we're having it.

Okay. West Island is English, East Island French. I'm not sure how much of a barrier that is?

I live in a city where the dominant culture changes every six blocks. I didn't see anything in and around Viau Metro station that made me uncomfortable to be English-Canadian.

I know the differences are there -- but cutting across the Olympic site to get to a soccer stadium?

I'm making a broader point about sports culture in francophone cities. If you know anything about PSG in Paris, you'll know that there have been multiple attempts to make them into a "big" euro club - after all, it's the only team in a city of 10 million. In the most recent attempt, they had a young Ronaldinho, a young Heinze, a young Arteta, and Okacha and Robert(!) in their primes, 1999-2001. It has never worked.

Whether it's gate receipts, TV ratings, you name it, Parisians just seem to have a life (unlike people in London or Madrid or Toronto or wherever). Montreal is more like Paris than Toronto.

If MLS comes it could work...I'd love to see Saputo/Gillett get a shot. But to work, the Impact would need to be positioned squarely at the francophone community. It obviously doesn't need to be even close to a "PSG" to succeed.

But when you layer on the political/ethnic/language/cultural/geographic baggage, I just think that true support for the CMNT in Montreal will never happen, even with Montreal in MLS.

Maple Leaf Red
09-11-2008, 10:59 AM
Yep, a lot of fans wore red in Toronto and made noise. Now, imagine that game in Toronto if TFC didn't exist. TFC has brought more people to soccer (me for one), has raised the profile of the national team, and, perhaps most importantly, taught the average Toronto soccer fan how to BE a fan. TFC started off with a bang, and everyone there wanted to be part of the action, not necessarily a bystander. This meant that people wanted to wear red (because they saw everyone else doing it) and make noise, and contribute. Sure, there are "prawn sandwich eaters" but on the whole, the crowd at BMO is MUCH more vocal than any other toronto sports team (and I'm not just talking about the supporters' groups).

What that means, is everyone who has been exposed to BMO, and gets a ticket for a national team game, knows the score. They know to wear red, that there will be chanting, to make noise, to make the opposition uncomfortable. They are used to a certain quality in the stands, and so perpetuate that quality. In Montreal they don't have that (yet). The impact just aren't at that level (and I'm not talking about on the pitch, obviously). They don't have many supporters' groups driving ticket sales, or casual fans paying attention. They don't have the interest and excitement of the city. So any fan that DOES go to the game is not going as a veteran soccer fan, but as an observer. Can that change? I hope so. I hope the Impact can get into MLS and explode. If they do, I have no doubt that future Canadian soccer matches in Montreal will be much better. If they don't... I would keep the matches away (because I think we would have better luck elsewhere).
If Montreal lived in a vacuum then I'd be completely on board with that. I definitely agree that TFC and the supporters groups were a massive driver for the success of the Jamaican game. By the same account, the Costa Rica game was a disaster because even the small things that went right for the Jamaican game didn't go well.

However, the people in Montreal have been to sporting events before. They know how to behave, they know that you wear the home teams colours, they know that Canada's flag is red, they know how to make noise. They know all of that and still so many went completely unprepared.

The amount of freebies was a shock to me. I had always been led to believe that they were selling those tickets. That's a big deal if you are trying to pretend that national team games will do well in Montreal.

Beach_Red
09-11-2008, 11:02 AM
Montreal is more like Paris than Toronto.

Well, it sure wants to be ;).

The support for CFL football in Montreal has really surprised me, along with the support for college football in Quebec.

So, soccer could really do well in Montreal.

But it would be Quebecois soccer, not Canadian, I think. As you say, Ensco, look at the Impact uniforms, the whole marketing of the team. It woldn't surprise me if there was a move to field a Quebec team like the Wales or Scotland team. You know, that might even help the popularlity of soccer in Quebec and that would help us all. Hmmm....

tlear
09-11-2008, 02:06 PM
I am curious during Euro or WC is there a lot of support for the French national team in Montreal?

I was in Montreal during Euro 2004 and I remember when Greece won there was a massive Greek celebration. What was the reaction in 2000 or 1998?

Beach_Red
09-11-2008, 02:23 PM
I am curious during Euro or WC is there a lot of support for the French national team in Montreal?

I was in Montreal during Euro 2004 and I remember when Greece won there was a massive Greek celebration. What was the reaction in 2000 or 1998?

Well, you have to keep in mind that most groups like Greek, Italian etc., are new immigrants to Canada with strong ties and family connections to the 'old country' but immigration from France stopped about 1763 and there wasn't much contact between then and the 1960's.

So Quebec is French, but not very tightly tied to France. This is another reason why there is so much patriotism in Quebec for Quebec.