Comparison Canada vs TFC

[giambac]

I think this topic is worth debating.

It isn't meant to be a bashing thread. Most of us are still feeling the pain from yesterday. TFC loss has killed any plaoff hope they had. Canada's loss to Honduras has ended their WC qualification hopes. They will hav eto wait 6 long years to 2014.

Anyways several threads have been opened. Peole bashing TFc and the Coach. Others praising the palyers for their effort yesterday. similarly peolple are upsset with canada's effort and Coach Mitchell's leadership.

So here is my question

Canada went into the WC qualification in a very tough group. Both Mexico and Honduras are ranked ahead of them. Their soccer history is greater than ours and they are the favourites in the group, Yet we still had hope that they would qualify. After one tie and one loss everyone is calling for Coach Mitchell's head.


TFC went into the current season also with alot of hope. There was the CC Cup, and there was the playoff aspirations. After starting the season on a positive note they have gone south since june. They lost to Montreal in the CC cup and are last in the MLS. They have won of their last 17 games (including CC and international). Why do people not think the same of Mo Johnsaonn and Carver as they do of Mitchell.

I think TFC road to success should have been easier to Canada's. Like I said Canada although they lost they lost to a higher rank team. TFc is losing games vs Montreal, Expansion SJ, etc etc.


I'm interested in the comparison and how we can quicly call for one's head and yet so vigoursly defend another.

Open to debate

[David_Oliveira]

Mitchell is a shit coach Carver is alot better than Mitchell. Here's an idea. If Mo sacks Carver... CARVER FOR COACH OF CANADA

[Roogsy]

It's a fair comparison.

In my eyes, Dale Mitchell should never have gotten the job. He doens't have the pedigree. He has been handed world-class players and done squat with them. They've beaten Martinique and St Vincent. That's about it.

Carver however, has been given a revolving door of players all season long...none of which can be said is world class. Not one. Sorry. And to boot...his leading scorer has not been there for most of the season and has lost multiple of players all season long to callups.

How really can you compare the two?

[SilverSamurai]

Mitchell is a shit coach Carver is alot better than Mitchell. Here's an idea. If Mo sacks Carver... CARVER FOR COACH OF CANADA
Ya right.
2 days after seeing the BS of the CSA and he'd be on the 1st plane back to Newcastle. Can't really blame him though.

And you can't compare them. MLS season is more forgiving. WCQ you have 4-5 games and that's it. Drop 2 of them and you're up sh*t creek.

[MrHawk]

You have to correct one thing.

TFC has never lost to Montreal. 1W 1D 0L. Because of the tie, we were eliminated from play, but we never technically suffered a defeat to them.

[giambac]

It's a fair comparison.

In my eyes, Dale Mitchell should never have gotten the job. He doens't have the pedigree. He has been handed world-class players and done squat with them. They've beaten Martinique and St Vincent. That's about it.

Carver however, has been given a revolving door of players all season long...none of which can be said is world class. Not one. Sorry. And to boot...his leading scorer has not been there for most of the season and has lost multiple of players all season long to callups.

How really can you compare the two?

But still canada has tom face and defeat mexico (the best team in the regio) and Honduras (arguable in the top 3-4 in the region). That's like saying TFC has to defeat or come ahead of team slike New Engalnd. yet we can't beat the bootom teams.

Also, you mention Carver has been given a revolving door of players. How about Mitchell. His players play overseas. Friend in Germany, De Guzman in Spain. All but 2 players don't play here (Sutton na dBrennan who aren't starters). Mitchell can't train with his palyers. They come over 3-4 days before their matches.

So like I said the comparison is similar.

[LucaGol]

Dale Mitchell just needs to work on his accent ... ;)

[Roogsy]

But still canada has tom face and defeat mexico (the best team in the regio) and Honduras (arguable in the top 3-4 in the region). That's like saying TFC has to defeat or come ahead of team slike New Engalnd. yet we can't beat the bootom teams.

How does this compare Carver and Mitchell? The results? Maybe. But it doesn't compare the advantages of one coach over the other which I think is the point of your post no?


Also, you mention Carver has been given a revolving door of players. How about Mitchell. His players play overseas. Friend in Germany, De Guzman in Spain. All but 2 players don't play here (Sutton na dBrennan who aren't starters). Mitchell can't train with his palyers. They come over 3-4 days before their matches.

As you so love to point out about Carver, Mitchell is dealing with the same thing as any other national team coach. Honduras had players last night who play in England and Spain. Canada has the same group of players who have been playing together for a while and almost made it to the Gold Cup finals last year...the difference? Dale Mitchell. Before him, we were more successful. Can you say the same about Carver? Nope. And Carver has not had the luxury of playing with the same group of players for more than 2 games in a row. How you can say him and Mitchell are facing the same situation is beyond comprehension.


So like I said the comparison is similar.

Um...I doubt you will find many who will agree with this statement. I certainly dont. You have definitely not made your case in my opinion.

[Shakes McQueen]

Dale Mitchell has had his pick of the best players in Canada, whereas Carver has had to deal with a revolving door of players every week, poor defenders, an injured star striker, international call-ups, etc. etc. etc.

Dale Mitchell was handed an incredibly strong CMNT. Carver is dealing with a lot of mediocrity, among other problems.

- Scott

[RPB_Brantford_08]

I think this topic is worth debating.

It isn't meant to be a bashing thread. Most of us are still feeling the pain from yesterday. TFC loss has killed any plaoff hope they had. Canada's loss to Honduras has ended their WC qualification hopes. They will hav eto wait 6 long years to 2014.

Anyways several threads have been opened. Peole bashing TFc and the Coach. Others praising the palyers for their effort yesterday. similarly peolple are upsset with canada's effort and Coach Mitchell's leadership.

So here is my question

Canada went into the WC qualification in a very tough group. Both Mexico and Honduras are ranked ahead of them. Their soccer history is greater than ours and they are the favourites in the group, Yet we still had hope that they would qualify. After one tie and one loss everyone is calling for Coach Mitchell's head.


TFC went into the current season also with alot of hope. There was the CC Cup, and there was the playoff aspirations. After starting the season on a positive note they have gone south since june. They lost to Montreal in the CC cup and are last in the MLS. They have won of their last 17 games (including CC and international). Why do people not think the same of Mo Johnsaonn and Carver as they do of Mitchell.

I think TFC road to success should have been easier to Canada's. Like I said Canada although they lost they lost to a higher rank team. TFc is losing games vs Montreal, Expansion SJ, etc etc.


I'm interested in the comparison and how we can quicly call for one's head and yet so vigoursly defend another.

Open to debate


TFC fans had no hope to believe TFC would be better the a last place team, were in year 2...as most expansion clubs do they struggle near the bottom of league for the first 2 years before making anykind of ground up and TFC are still in that process , yes our football has been 100% better under carver, but still more work to do over the winter 2009 should see a
better playoff run. those that had us in the plaoffs this year were smoking grass or got hit buy a foreign object. Mitchell should be fired as should the Canadain players...lazy bastards..well the can enjoy the world vup on telly like the rest of us. Canada has not beaten a major opponet in the
last year....and look to be headed for a 6-0 thumping at the hands of mexico on wednesday....yes thats 6-0 if its less then that i will be shocked. TFC will continue to improve slowly, Canada on the other has might as well give up now, there are shite.

[giambac]

TFC fans had no hope to believe TFC would be better the a last place tem, were in year 2...as most expansion clubs do they struggle near the bottom of league for the first 2 years bfore making anykind of ground up and TFC are still in that process , yes out football has been 100% better under carve, but still more work to do over the winter 2009 should see a
better playoff run. those that had us in the plaoffs this year were smoking grass or got hit but a foreign object. Mitchell should be fired has should the Canadain players...lazy bastards..well the can enjoy the world vup on telly like the rest of us. Canada has not beaten a major opponet in the
last year....and look to be headed for a 6-0 thumping at the hands of mexico on wednesday....yes thats 6-0 if its less then that i will be shocked. TFC will continue to improve slowly, Canada on the other has might as well give up now, there are shite.

As a 2nd year team I would at leat expect them to beat the Expansion team SJ.

I would expect them to beat the USL teams. We went 1 win 1 loss 1nd2 draws against them (4 out of 12 points).

canada on the other hand gave Brazil a challenge in their friendly game. We lost to Honduras yesterday who are a way better team than us with way better players.

[Roogsy]

We lost to Honduras yesterday who are a way better team than us with way better players.

When I read one thread, I read that Honduras sucks and we should have beat them.

Here I am reading that Honduras is a good team with better players.

Nobody can say there aren't disagreeing points of view on this board that's for sure!

[giambac]

Dale Mitchell has had his pick of the best players in Canada, whereas Carver has had to deal with a revolving door of players every week, poor defenders, an injured star striker, international call-ups, etc. etc. etc.

Dale Mitchell was handed an incredibly strong CMNT. Carver is dealing with a lot of mediocrity, among other problems.

- Scott

Yes but Mitcheel and the Canadian team are playing against better countries than Canada. You may be disappointed with the loss yesterday but lets face it Honduras is a better soccer nation.

TFC on the other hand can't beat expansion teams and against the USl teams (Vancouver nad Montreal) they went 1 win 1 loss and 2 draws. 4 out of 12 points. Carve rhas medoicre palyers but then the MLS is a mediocrfe league. All the other teams have mediocre players also.

[Roogsy]

Carve rhas medoicre palyers but then the MLS is a mediocrfe league. All the other teams have mediocre players also.

Ah, I am glad you acknowledge this fact.

Now...think about this. Carver has mediocre players and the best among those mediocre player he doesn't even have access to several times a year! Moreso than ANY other team in the mediocre MLS. So when you don't have your best players, on a mediocre team, what's left?

When has Dale Mitchell EVER been without his best players? (To take this back to your original point)

[TFC_Chris]

As a 2nd year team I would at leat expect them to beat the Expansion team SJ.

I would expect them to beat the USL teams. We went 1 win 1 loss 1nd2 draws against them (4 out of 12 points).

canada on the other hand gave Brazil a challenge in their friendly game. We lost to Honduras yesterday who are a way better team than us with way better players.

Call a spade a spade giambac...

Also in that time, Canada lost to the powerhouses of South Africa, Estonia and drew with Panama, Iceland, and Costa Rica...

Compared to TFC who have looked truly bad in only a handful of games have at least looked like they can take points away from most matches...the fact that they lose it in the last 5 minutes of a game does not mean they were not in the game, just lost concentration...

[giambac]

When I read one thread, I read that Honduras sucks and we should have beat them.

Here I am reading that Honduras is a good team with better players.

Nobody can say there aren't disagreeing points of view on this board that's for sure!

Look at the FIFA world rankings. Mexico is ranke d# 24, Honduras #60. These are the teams we have to beat. Canada is ranked #81. They are in a tough group and everyone knew it would be difficult to come out of this group. Why is everyone so surprised now??

[giambac]

Call a spade a spade giambac...

Also in that time, Canada lost to the powerhouses of South Africa, Estonia and drew with Panama, Iceland, and Costa Rica...

Compared to TFC who have looked truly bad in only a handful of games have at least looked like they can take points away from most matches...the fact that they lose it in the last 5 minutes of a game does not mean they were not in the game, just lost concentration...

1 win out of the last 17 games:out:

[LucaGol]

Im just looking forward to Dale Mitchell's first experience as the coach in Mexico.

He already borderline looked nervous on the touchline in Montreal.

Imagine him standing in Estadio Jalisco, with 70,000 rabid Mexicans, beside Sven-Goran Eriksson and his team getting pressed backed in their own zone like nobody's business.

Not to wish Canada any ill will, I hope they walk in there on Wednesday and pull off the shock of the century. I will no doubt be on pins and needles the entire time.

But I just hope the CSA realize the gravity of these games, and the environments into which they are sending an inexperienced coach into. Environments in which even seasoned managers would find testing.

[giambac]

Im just looking forward to Dale Mitchell's first experience as the coach in Mexico.

He already borderline looked nervous on the touchline in Montreal.

Imagine him standing in Estadio Jalisco, with 70,000 rabid Mexicans, beside Sven-Goran Eriksson and his team getting pressed backed in their own zone like nobody's business.

Not to wish Canada any ill will, I hope they walk in there on Wednesday and pull off the shock of the century. I will no doubt be on pins and needles the entire time.

But I just hope the CSA realize the gravity of these games, and the environments into which they are sending an inexperienced coach into. Environments in which even seasoned managers would find testing.

There have been upsets in soccer and in other sports. anything is possible but let's be realistic, it will take a miracle to even get a draw. Mexico is a tough opponent an dthey are next to unbeatable at home. We blew our 2 chances at home.

[Shakes McQueen]

1 win out of the last 17 games:out:

Yes, and a lot of those matches were either tightly contested losses, or tightly contested draws.

We were truly bad in the recent New York Red Bulls game. We were truly bad in the second half of the first Chivas USA match.

- Scott

[werewolf]

You lost me at this point.


Look at the FIFA world rankings.

The FIFA rankings should never, ever be quoted in determining the strength of a team

[giambac]

You lost me at this point.



The FIFA rankings should never, ever be quoted in determining the strength of a team

I Know it ha sproblems. I'm not a fan of the FIFA world rankings. However no matter how you slice it, Honduras ranking (60) vs Canada's ranking of 81 is justified.

[werewolf]

It is one thing to say the team is better, but the ranking numbers are not justified in any way, shape, or form.

[LucaGol]

You lost me at this point.



The FIFA rankings should never, ever be quoted in determining the strength of a team

That is of course unless your team is #1 ;)

Yes, FIFA rankings are big pile of dung.

But what other measure do we have really of comparing teams...other than our eyes and ears...and we know how much trouble the latter gets people into.

[werewolf]

Tournaments, games, head-to-head. Italy won the World Cup in '06, World Champions, but going by FIFA rankings they were only second. For someone that went by that, they were not the best country in the world despite winning the world tournament. 2 months later they were down to 5th....

[LucaGol]

Tournaments, games, head-to-head. Italy won the World Cup in '06, World Champions, but going by FIFA rankings they were only second. For someone that went by that, they were not the best country in the world despite winning the world tournament. 2 months later they were down to 5th....

But generally, it paints a somewhat accurate picture.

As I said before, it can't be given too much weight because of its seemingly unpredictable nature ... but more or less .... give or take a few spots ... the gist of a team's position in the world can be ascertained.

[Shakes McQueen]

But generally, it paints a somewhat accurate picture.

As I said before, it can't be given too much weight because of its seemingly unpredictable nature ... but more or less .... give or take a few spots ... the gist of a team's position in the world can be ascertained.

If by "generally", you mean they "generally" put the best teams in the world in the top 10... somewhere. But anyone could do that.

I'd love to know what metrics they use for clubs that routinely don't win anything, though. Like ours.

- Scott

[LucaGol]

If by "generally", you mean they "generally" put the best teams in the world in the top 10... somewhere. But anyone could do that.

I'd love to know what metrics they use for clubs that routinely don't win anything, though. Like ours.

- Scott

Well, there on metrics ... but good luck on figuring out on how the actual metrics translate into the actual ranking.

[adampz]

I think football is a love/hate relationship. It can bring you happiness, and it can also bring you a lot of sorrow, unless you're a united fan. Canada and tfc lost yesterday, Poland just tied slovenia in WCQ, so i would say im definetly going through a rough patch in my relationship with footy. A true fan follows the team through the love and the hate though.

[giambac]

I think football is a love/hate relationship. It can bring you happiness, and it can also bring you a lot of sorrow, unless you're a united fan. Canada and tfc lost yesterday, Poland just tied slovenia in WCQ, so i would say im definetly going through a rough patch in my relationship with footy. A true fan follows the team through the love and the hate though.

Okay I can understand your comment here.

But since the topic is Team Canada vs. TFC comaprison, here is another point.

Why when I bash TFC for their poor play and show my disappointment in their play I'm labelled as a non supporter. As you say a true fan should follow their team.

Now after Cnada lost yesterday, these same people who call me a non TFC supporter are bashing Team Canada and Coach Mitchell. Should they not be labelled as non Canadian supporters? Are they hypocrits?

I Just find it funny how things change and how people always have 2 sides to them.

[werewolf]

Dale Mitchell shouldn't have been hired in the first place. John Carver actually has credentials, and the constant complaining about his 'English' tactics and the way you go overboard in presenting the arguments on small details over the course of a long season.

[Roogsy]

Look at the FIFA world rankings. Mexico is ranke d# 24, Honduras #60. These are the teams we have to beat. Canada is ranked #81. They are in a tough group and everyone knew it would be difficult to come out of this group. Why is everyone so surprised now??

We're using the FIFA rankings as a basis for our discussions now? LOL! The most skewed, inaccurate incomprehensible set of rankings on the face of the earth? The one that had the US in the top 10 before the last World Cup?


You lost me at this point.



The FIFA rankings should never, ever be quoted in determining the strength of a team

Sorry I missed your post. I should have read the whole thread.

[Roogsy]

Im just looking forward to Dale Mitchell's first experience as the coach in Mexico.

He already borderline looked nervous on the touchline in Montreal.

Imagine him standing in Estadio Jalisco, with 70,000 rabid Mexicans, beside Sven-Goran Eriksson and his team getting pressed backed in their own zone like nobody's business.

Not to wish Canada any ill will, I hope they walk in there on Wednesday and pull off the shock of the century. I will no doubt be on pins and needles the entire time.

But I just hope the CSA realize the gravity of these games, and the environments into which they are sending an inexperienced coach into. Environments in which even seasoned managers would find testing.

Bang on. We CAN agree you know.

[adampz]

I think, you can bash your team to a certain point, and I think its ok to complain about your team, aslong as you're still watching the team next week.

[Beach_Red]

Okay, I admit, I expected more from TFC this season - though there's no realistic reason why I should have. MLS isn't a great league, but the top teams have had over ten years to develop and it was just wishful thinking that we might be able to compete at that level right away. I still think in the next three years we will become a playoff team and stay that way for a long time and win the championship within five years.

When it comes to the national team, I also think soccer feels very new in Canada. I realize it's not, but for a long time in this country soccer was an athlete's second or third choice. Especially outside of Toronto where soccer would be far below hockey, baseball, football, hell even rowing. But in the last ten years that's changed in lots of the country and will soon change in the rest. It will take a while for that change to be felt at the international level, but it will.

[RPB_Brantford_08]

As a 2nd year team I would at leat expect them to beat the Expansion team SJ.

I would expect them to beat the USL teams. We went 1 win 1 loss 1nd2 draws against them (4 out of 12 points).

canada on the other hand gave Brazil a challenge in their friendly game. We lost to Honduras yesterday who are a way better team than us with way better players.


Brazil went easy on us and you know it...it Brazil really wanted too they could have put up a cricket score against us...if they wanted too.
No Question Honduras is better, So is Mexico, Costa Rica, USA,
Guatemala, El Salvador, Jamaica, Trinadad/Tobago, we have a few names to jump before been serious at wcq time...

[v00d00daddy]

TFC fans had no hope to believe TFC would be better the a last place team, were in year 2...as most expansion clubs do they struggle near the bottom of league for the first 2 years before making anykind of ground up and TFC are still in that process , yes our football has been 100% better under carver, but still more work to do over the winter 2009 should see a
better playoff run. those that had us in the plaoffs this year were smoking grass or got hit buy a foreign object. Mitchell should be fired as should the Canadain players...lazy bastards..well the can enjoy the world vup on telly like the rest of us. Canada has not beaten a major opponet in the
last year....and look to be headed for a 6-0 thumping at the hands of mexico on wednesday....yes thats 6-0 if its less then that i will be shocked. TFC will continue to improve slowly, Canada on the other has might as well give up now, there are shite.

I don't understand you. How can you LOVE TFC and hate team Canada?

Both teams are having a hard time competing but at least the CMNT plays a decent brand of football. (not last night unfortunately)

The CMNT have a bunch of players that would replace the TFC roster in a heartbeat. I hate the CSA as much as the next guy but do you seriously prefer watching TFC kick the ball around, instead of the CMNT?

[marquis]

I don't understand you. How can you LOVE TFC and hate team Canada?

Both teams are having a hard time competing but at least the CMNT plays a decent brand of football. (not last night unfortunately)

The CMNT have a bunch of players that would replace the TFC roster in a heartbeat. I hate the CSA as much as the next guy but do you seriously prefer watching TFC kick the ball around, instead of the CMNT?

Absolutely right. The difference between CMNT's game and TFC's is huge - CMNT plays football and that gives you hope for future. TFC does not play anything after 2 years and that's scary...

[LucaGol]

Bang on. We CAN agree you know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DmYLrxR0Y8


But enough with the joking around ... Im pumped for Wednesday, I could care less if we dropped points at home.

I can just see it now ... De Ro striking a rocket from distance, through the already thin-air, bulging the top chord of the net behind Oswaldo Sanchez in the 3rd minute of injury time giving us the 1 nil victory, running to the corner flag with his finger over his mouth saying ..... sssshhhhh.

Then of course he'd do his ridiculous celebration at which point I'd run out into my hallway and slide knees first ala Stevie Gerrard saluting the Kop.