Would you support TFC if it joined another league?

[trane]

Lets say a new an improved CSL. I know this is not going to happen. But what do you guys say?

[joel]

Lets say a new an improved CSL. I know this is not going to happen. But what do you guys say?


lets say the CNE gets granted soverign status, and becomes it's own nation, and the new inhabitants are TFC players, and a bunch of carnies.

They now compete for national competitions, like the world cup.

I know this is not going to happen. But what do you guys say?

--lawl

[trane]

It is called discussion. It will not likely happen now, but it can happen at some point, if the MLS does not grow, and TFC outgrows the league. I am starting to think, and it is too early to determine this, that the Toronto market may have more potential then the MLS can offer, and that therefore the MLS may limit TFC growth as well as a few other markets. At some point people will look at opntions.

[rocker]

gotta love the most hypothetical of threads! ;)

[RealG-TFC]

Lets say a new an improved CSL. I know this is not going to happen. But what do you guys say?

Like a real Legit Canadian Soccer League without any little amateur teams with foreign names and with their own stadiums? With TV coverage and a decent following across the country?

If so...

Than FOOK YES!!!

[Toronto Ruffrider]

Like a real Legit Canadian Soccer League without any little amateur teams with foreign names and with their own stadiums? With TV coverage and a decent following across the country?

If so...

Than FOOK YES!!!

What, Etobicoke Centennial Stadium not professional enough for you?;)

[JDG]

If TFC moved from the MLS to a legitimately comparable alternate, yes.
I wouldn't support a move to a lesser league unless the MLS folded. If another league appeared to compete with MLS as the top level of Football in North America, and it was a better option - yes.

[trane]

Like a real Legit Canadian Soccer League without any little amateur teams with foreign names and with their own stadiums? With TV coverage and a decent following across the country?

If so...

Than FOOK YES!!!


That is what I mean. I think several Canadian Markets may have more potential then the MLS may offer. It is clearly years away, and only if the MLS does not get its act together. Or as JDG another North American league which was better organized.

[Cashcleaner]

3 words:

Canadian.

Domestic.

League.

I've always hated the attitude people have in that we need to belong to a US league to have teams succeed. MLS has proven time and time again that it's a joke. It's nothing more than a money farm for the league's investors where certain clubs struggle along financially while the league's officials pass more ridiculous policies that help further line their own pockets rather than helping the franchises out that really need the support. Why bother with such an organisation when we could create our own here at home and do it right the first time.

Are we Canadian soccer supporters or MLS fans?

[flatpicker]

I would be very surprised if a Canadian league could draw enough support from fans, even with a team owned by MLSE.
You would have 3 decent markets and a bunch of fringe markets.

People are so used to leagues being Can/US combined that anything else would seem sub-standard.

So basically, if Toronto outgrows MLS, how can we possibly expect it to not outgrow the CSL???
There is nowhere else for them to go.

that being said... I would love to be wrong... a pure Canadian league that works would be a dream come true.

[joel]

It is called discussion. It will not likely happen now, but it can happen at some point, if the MLS does not grow, and TFC outgrows the league. I am starting to think, and it is too early to determine this, that the Toronto market may have more potential then the MLS can offer, and that therefore the MLS may limit TFC growth as well as a few other markets. At some point people will look at opntions.

How could TFC outgrow the league considering we can't even make the playoffs?

And in terms of market, and by market we mean money, a US based league, and US based television contracts will always far exceed anything we could do in toronto.

A Canadian based league can't attract the big numbers, or the beckhams or get the visibilty it needs.

I think it's a simple fact that it is the MLS is the reason Toronto has become so successful. THere have been a nunmber of Toronto Soccer teams that have all been relative failures. I think you're missing a lot of things by thinking TFC isn't heavily dependent on MLS success for its own success.

We would never get the scale here, I think you give toronto, and canadians way too much credit. If TFC had been launched in an 'elite' CSL type league..it would have failed. We wouldn't have had the europe connections, got the rookie of the year, gotten european coverage for his move, or been part of the MLS coverage that is happening iinitally due to beckham

[Beach_Red]

That is what I mean. I think several Canadian Markets may have more potential then the MLS may offer. It is clearly years away, and only if the MLS does not get its act together. Or as JDG another North American league which was better organized.

A competitive CSL may have more of a future than the CFL does.

Soccer is the only really global team sport. It may eventually even take over western Canada.

[trane]

Joel , I think TFC is succesfull because what people thought the MLS is, a quality professional league, if it proves otherwise, we will lose support.

Flatpicker, the CSL as it is currenlty organized certainly is not up to par.

[flatpicker]

Flatpicker, the CSL as it is currenlty organized certainly is not up to par.

just to be clear... when I mentioned CSL, it was more of a general statement about any pro Canadian league and not specifically the CSL as it is known today.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Pretty hard to take any other leagues on the continent seriously, so no.
I went to several lynx games in the hopes of something in the way of professional soccer and was sadly disappointed. Everything about it was amateur. Christ, we had directions to two diff stadiums from the website then didnt pay to get in (nobody wanted our money).

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Maybe if the league had the same level of talent and professionalism (or higher, FO, league and players wise) than what the current MLS has sure but never anything below. Im sorry, there is just too much bullshit with the current league to accept something less.

[SilverSamurai]

IF and that's a HUGE IF yes, but realistically I don't think it'll ever happen. TFC could have a team in the CSL and use it as a reserve squad of sorts for up and coming players, or maybe they're already doing that with the academy. In any case I think their's probably a better chance of Winnipeg getting the Jets back and Quebec City getting the Nordiques back in the NHL than a real and successful CSL.
But this is one thing I would love to be wrong about.

[Roogsy]

Sorry guys...I know it's hypothetical but it's as hypothetical as my putting up a thread asking if I should bone Angelina Jolie or Scarlett Johansson.

If we couldn't have a Canadian only major hockey league, what makes us think we can sustain a credible Canadian Soccer League that isn't anything other than 2nd rate? *cough* excuse me...THIRD rate? Because lord knows MLS is second rate so far with their stupid resistance to FIFA dates and their puny roster sizes and salary caps. What makes us think a Canadian league wouldn't be the same thing except even WORSE?

[rocker]

of course we'd all love a canadian league..

but we're not the people to ask about this. we're the hard core. ask the average fan and they'd probably never come out. TFC is a very unique thing and we could never see such a thing happen across canada. people are complaining about the quality of play in MLS now, but it'd go down considerably if it was an all-canada league. The salary cap would be much lower (can't do what the CFL does since you wouldn't have the TV contract or the 30000 a game attendances). you'd need massive investment in stadia (don't want to play on those lines do ya?).
in the end the quality of play would be so weak and while the hardcore would come out, I think it would take generations to see it grow to acceptable levels. Not sure investors would be willing to wait for that -- nor would the average (not hardcore) fan.
The current plan of being a part of MLS (Vanny and MTL) is perfectly fine to me. I would prefer to watch MLS quality than wait 20 years for the Canadian league to get to that level.
If you guys want high level football, MLS will get us there way sooner than a Canadian league would.

[trane]

Sorry guys...I know it's hypothetical but it's as hypothetical as my putting up a thread asking if I should bone Angelina Jolie or Scarlett Johansson.

If we couldn't have a Canadian only major hockey league, what makes us think we can sustain a credible Canadian Soccer League that isn't anything other than 2nd rate? *cough* excuse me...THIRD rate? Because lord knows MLS is second rate so far with their stupid resistance to FIFA dates and their puny roster sizes and salary caps. What makes us think a Canadian league wouldn't be the same thing except even WORSE?


You should bone Scarlett Johansson.

I just have the feeling that this league as it is may end up being the demise of TFC, if people start thinking of it as a second or even third rate league.

[Cashcleaner]

I would be very surprised if a Canadian league could draw enough support from fans, even with a team owned by MLSE.
You would have 3 decent markets and a bunch of fringe markets.

People are so used to leagues being Can/US combined that anything else would seem sub-standard.

So basically, if Toronto outgrows MLS, how can we possibly expect it to not outgrow the CSL???
There is nowhere else for them to go.

that being said... I would love to be wrong... a pure Canadian league that works would be a dream come true.

Again, I have to dispute that. The CFL is the sixth largest pro sports league in the world in terms of attendance, and I doubt you'll find a lot of people who would dispute the notion that an increase of Canadian teams in the NHL would greatly increase the league's overall revenue.

We talk a lot about people not willing to part with a US-centric league, but what about so many Toronto FC fans that suggest otherwise? I'm absolutely sure we'd still have a sell-out crowd at BMO if we were facing off against Ottawa, Vancouver, Montreal, or Calgary.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I dont think Ottawa, Calgary, Halifax, Moncton, Winnipeg, Edmonton would have sell out crowds tho.

3 team does not make a good league

[Roogsy]

You should bone Scarlett Johansson.


I WISH!

[james]

If there ever was to be an all Canadain Soccer league it would probably be more like the Scotish League or somethin, but with even less money and less skill in the league. We would probably have 10 teams at best and they would have 3 well supported cities like Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver while all the other cities would probably play in empty shitty stadiums.

[flatpicker]

Again, I have to dispute that. The CFL is the sixth largest pro sports league in the world in terms of attendance, and I doubt you'll find a lot of people who would dispute the notion that an increase of Canadian teams in the NHL would greatly increase the league's overall revenue.




certainly CFL is the exception... but it's oldest league in North America (I think) so it has tradition behind it.

also... I didn't know it was the sixth biggest attendance draw in the world!!!! Is that right??? Where did you get that info from???

[Beach_Red]

Sorry guys...I know it's hypothetical but it's as hypothetical as my putting up a thread asking if I should bone Angelina Jolie or Scarlett Johansson.

That's too easy, gotta be Scarlett...

Hockey and football make an interesting comparison, though. Why don't we have a major hockey league in Canada instead of a football league?

Well, of course it was because hockey wanted to go after the big market in the US. In 1967 when they expanded from the original six (two Canadian) they added six American teams. Now, we get a report that says the current Canadian teams are responsible for something like 40% of the league's revenue, so, has it really worked? Could a Canadian league stand on its own?

I would say yes, if there was also a US league and a few European leagues and they had a Champions League-type tournament as well.

But football, American or Canadian, hasn't been able to market itself outside of North America. It's entirely possible that the CFL will lose popularity as soccer increases.

Now, should I bone Dianne Lane or Julianne Moore? (I must older than you).

[Ossington Mental Youth]

If there ever was to be an all Canadain Soccer league it would probably be more like the Scotish League or somethin, but with even less money and less skill in the league. We would probably have 10 teams at best and they would have 3 well supported cities like Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver while all the other cities would probably play in empty shitty stadiums.

youd then see crowds in montreal, vancouver and toronto drop off because the other teams/cities are shit and eventually the league would die because of a lack of interest and everyone would go back to watching european soccer.

We simply do not have the interest or the structure to support a league in canada.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I just have the feeling that this league as it is may end up being the demise of TFC, if people start thinking of it as a second or even third rate league.

Again with the inferiority complex. Why the hell can't i be proud to support my local team even if it isn't in serie A? If TFC started in the USL aside Montreal and 'Couver I would 've been there. I was pissed when the Supra moved out of town the year i moved into the neighborhood. ( that's like the Potuguese version of Italia shooters) My point is you shouldn't have to worry for TFC not appearing to be a bigger thing than the Maple Leafs like I won't worry to lose you to watching your Serie A instead of Toronto. I can't change people's mind by slagging the league off so I won't.

[trane]

If there ever was to be an all Canadain Soccer league it would probably be more like the Scotish League or somethin, but with even less money and less skill in the league. We would probably have 10 teams at best and they would have 3 well supported cities like Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver while all the other cities would probably play in empty shitty stadiums.


I just do not see it as such a bad thing. I would say that there is room for another sothern Ontario Team, somewhere west of Toronto, KW or Hamilton/Niagara. So you have four big clubs, Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto, and that other team. That is no unlike many European leagues. You organise in three divisions ten teams each with relegation. Teams of various sizes, some kind of Canadian Cup, and you have the makings of a real league. It is not impossible.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Why dont you guys watch CSL or USL 2 then, intead of TFC if those are the teams in your locality?
(im not being facetious, im honestly asking)

[trane]

Again with the inferiority complex. Why the hell can't i be proud to support my local team even if it isn't in serie A? If TFC started in the USL aside Montreal and 'Couver I would 've been there. I was pissed when the Supra moved out of town the year i moved into the neighborhood. ( that's like the Potuguese version of Italia shooters) My point is you shouldn't have to worry for TFC not appearing to be a bigger thing than the Maple Leafs like I won't worry to lose you to watching your Serie A instead of Toronto. I can't change people's mind by slagging the league off so I won't.


I am not talking about me, I want to support local soccer, and I want it to grow in this country. But there is a reality in this market, people now the game and have always watched the game whether it is Seria A, EPL or SPL they expect a certain quality, a certain growth in the quality of the game, if it does not happen people will lose interest. The league needs to address this sooner rather then later.

[jloome]

Sorry guys...I know it's hypothetical but it's as hypothetical as my putting up a thread asking if I should bone Angelina Jolie or Scarlett Johansson.

If we couldn't have a Canadian only major hockey league, what makes us think we can sustain a credible Canadian Soccer League that isn't anything other than 2nd rate? *cough* excuse me...THIRD rate? Because lord knows MLS is second rate so far with their stupid resistance to FIFA dates and their puny roster sizes and salary caps. What makes us think a Canadian league wouldn't be the same thing except even WORSE?

Nothing wrong with hypotheticals. If people discussed the possibility in life more than just their cynical aspersions on the issue of the day, we'd be a lot better off.

CSL can't happen because of travel costs. That's really the only thing that has prevented it in the past. Local attendance isn't an issue; to pay a USL-level salary grid , you only need to average about 1,500 fans per game.

There are ancilliary cost issues like stadium rental etc. but if Canadians really wanted the sport professionally -- and, like non-North Americans, understood that pro sports aren't gauged for success purely by attendance-- then it would be doable by regionalizing the schedule and accepting the limitations of being an emerging sport: crowds of less than 5,000 to start, possible even playing in a cavernous building.

The other possibility is to find eight to 10 owners who have deep enough pockets that they can finance infrastructre from the start. Put in a handful of 5,000 seat SSS's with expansion capabilities, start small, rely on the support of locals for a local team. Then, realistically, you can look at putting teams in small communities, as is the case in Europe.

In fact, much of this could be accomplished in the inevitable restructuring of the CSE simply by professionalizing the top levels of elite amateur soccer against the country.

[Cashcleaner]

Why dont you guys watch CSL or USL 2 then, intead of TFC if those are the teams in your locality?
(im not being facetious, im honestly asking)

Good question, but I'm not of Italian, Portugese, or Crotian descent, so that would rule out half of the CSL teams, wouldn't it?

Truth be told, I didn't even know the Lynx existed until 2005-2006 or so. That's gotta speak more about the club and it's marketing know-how than my knowledge of the sport.

[trane]

jloome, I like your idea.

Cashcleaner, the ethnic thing is a double edged sword for Canadian Soccer, it helps atract people, but it excludes others. I think for the long run it needs to be limited.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Good question, but I'm not of Italian, Portugese, or Crotian descent, so that would rule out half of the CSL teams, wouldn't it?

Truth be told, I didn't even know the Lynx existed until 2005-2006 or so. That's gotta speak more about the club and it's marketing know-how than my knowledge of the sport.

In all honesty you can expect more of the same if you think Canada could support its own league. has nothing to do with an inferiority complex so muhc as it has to do with the majority of canadians being removed from the sport and the few that do enjoy it enjoy it at a high level. People that support those teams usually are either family members or active members in the community, soccer fans yes but usually involved in the community in some manner or another.

[Cashcleaner]

Well then, the only choice is clear:

Canada takes over MLS.

:D

[Beach_Red]

The other possibility is to find eight to 10 owners who have deep enough pockets that they can finance infrastructre from the start. Put in a handful of 5,000 seat SSS's with expansion capabilities, start small, rely on the support of locals for a local team. Then, realistically, you can look at putting teams in small communities, as is the case in Europe.

Or a single-entitty ownership that wouldn't mind losing a lot of money for years, and.... oh right.

Though a big sponor or two and a TV deal would be nice.

Or even community ownership like the western CFL teams. In fact, if the CFL really wanted to protect itself in the future, it should seriously consider partnering with soccer.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I think CSL and USL/USL 2 teams are great and should be supported but i dont think the majority of people will support them initially, basically they have to be supported by local business men and the CSA (good luck on that), it would however be brilliant and significantly help canadian soccer.

[Beach_Red]

Well then, the only choice is clear:

Canada takes over MLS.

:D

I'd still be interested in hockey if Canada could take over the NHL.

[Cashcleaner]

^ Whoa whoa, now! That's just crazy talk, Red.

[james]

certainly CFL is the exception... but it's oldest league in North America (I think) so it has tradition behind it.

also... I didn't know it was the sixth biggest attendance draw in the world!!!! Is that right??? Where did you get that info from???

my guessing is its probably the 6th highest average attendence per game in the world. But No way its the 6th highest overall attendence in the world. There is no way 9 Canadian teams who play what only 18 games get more then leagues like NHL, NBA, MLB, NFL that have 30 teams and play twice, three times or even 4 times as much games. Even Soccer alone i couldnt see CFL having a total overall attendence over England, Italy, Spain, or Germany. They got 2 many teams and they play twice as much games as they do in CFL.

CFL averaging 30,000 a game (they only play 9 home games)........being 6th highest average attendence????? ya i could see that!

[VPjr]

I love TFC (the club) but I hate everything to do with MLS. My dream come true would be for TFC to leave this piece of shit league.

I've stated a few times that TFC should pull out of MLS, switch to USL1 (which is not as amateurish as some might thing...the Lynx were an amateurish operation but the league itself could be very good with the proper investor) and then we can work to create a Canadian division of the USL. Ottawa has interest, Montreal and Vancouver are already there...just need 2 more teams and you have a 6 team division.

The ultimate would be a 10 team Canadian Premier League. I truly believe thatthe money exists but the CSA must take a leadership position in making this happen and I don't think they have the stones to do it.

Many years ago, a very good proposal for such a league was floated out there by a gentleman by the name of Gerry Gentile (some of you might remember it). It did not get off the ground for a lot of reasons but the proposal itself was rock solid and the business model could have worked.

[trane]

You know I am not even a hockey fan, but the NHL treatment of Canada pissess me off. I think the MLS is not anti Canadian, it policies are potentialy limiting to any potentialy large footy market.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Why dont you guys watch CSL or USL 2 then, intead of TFC if those are the teams in your locality?
(im not being facetious, im honestly asking)

It sounds funny but I can't wait to hear this question more often. It'll mean soccer has arrived when fans start challenging the fans of the big clubs in MLS as glory hunters instead of supporting their local.

But personally I just happened to look to support a team right before Toronto came to be and as you know most teams in their area moved out to Missisauga which had no appeal to me.

I truly hope I see a time when kids calls me a glory hunter for my Toronto shirt and a perfectly well supported CSL team is right around the corner. But I've picked my team.

[trane]

I love TFC (the club) but I hate everything to do with MLS. My dream come true would be for TFC to leave this piece of shit league.

I've stated a few times that TFC should pull out of MLS, switch to USL1 (which is not as amateurish as some might thing...the Lynx were an amateurish operation but the league itself could be very good with the proper investor) and then we can work to create a Canadian division of the USL. Ottawa has interest, Montreal and Vancouver are already there...just need 2 more teams and you have a 6 team division.

The ultimate would be a 10 team Canadian Premier League. I truly believe thatthe money exists but the CSA must take a leadership position in making this happen and I don't think they have the stones to do it.

Many years ago, a very good proposal for such a league was floated out there by a gentleman by the name of Gerry Gentile (some of you might remember it). It did not get off the ground for a lot of reasons but the proposal itself was rock solid and the business model could have worked.


You have any links to any of this, I am interested in reading them.

[Bobo]

MLS is shit. I'd pack my bags and leave with them.

[Fort York Redcoat]

With MLS?:D

[james]

You know I am not even a hockey fan, but the NHL treatment of Canada pissess me off. I think the MLS is not anti Canadian, it policies are potentialy limiting to any potentialy large footy market.

the owners in NHL piss me off more then the owners in MLS. MLS owners seriously dont care what country you from....they just look for any market that will support a team. While in NHL they are anti Canadian. They have constently refused to look at any further exspansion in Canada. Even tho everyone knows Winnipeg could fill a 20,000 seat stadium they would rather look for exspansion in a place like Atlanta or Nashville where they are almost guaranteed to have empty stadiums.

[gtaguy]

lets not imagine the what if's but be happy that we HAVE A TEAM TO CHEER FOR...
how many other cities would die to be in our position...

Lets not forget that even if tfc moved to some other league what kind of issues would the club experience being there.. not a bad idea thinking that way but only 2 years into our inception we already want to change .. Mls is here to stay even if we don't like it and try and move this club to another league and see how quick the MLS pulls the plug on us....

[joel]

I love TFC (the club) but I hate everything to do with MLS. My dream come true would be for TFC to leave this piece of shit league.

I've stated a few times that TFC should pull out of MLS, switch to USL1 (which is not as amateurish as some might thing...the Lynx were an amateurish operation but the league itself could be very good with the proper investor) and then we can work to create a Canadian division of the USL. Ottawa has interest, Montreal and Vancouver are already there...just need 2 more teams and you have a 6 team division.

The ultimate would be a 10 team Canadian Premier League. I truly believe thatthe money exists but the CSA must take a leadership position in making this happen and I don't think they have the stones to do it.

Many years ago, a very good proposal for such a league was floated out there by a gentleman by the name of Gerry Gentile (some of you might remember it). It did not get off the ground for a lot of reasons but the proposal itself was rock solid and the business model could have worked.

Hmm, I just think without the US angle, and the development of canadian players just starting to improve now, it would be hard (at least in the near future) to get quality players.

Van and Mtl are still in the USL as well, same thing. I just don't think a canadian league will have the credibility, scale or money to be separate for decades. Many decades really. Just my opinion though.

I think being in the MLS is the key to growing it in canada and in 20 years we get to a point where there are 9-10 canadian teams we separate, buyt why bother at that point? If we have tons of competition, lots of teams to play, a single table, relegation and promoition...why can't it be MLS?

I think once MLS gets the right critical mass, the things you hate about MLS will start to disappear.

[james]

It sounds funny but I can't wait to hear this question more often. It'll mean soccer has arrived when fans start challenging the fans of the big clubs in MLS as glory hunters instead of supporting their local.

But personally I just happened to look to support a team right before Toronto came to be and as you know most teams in their area moved out to Missisauga which had no appeal to me.

I truly hope I see a time when kids calls me a glory hunter for my Toronto shirt and a perfectly well supported CSL team is right around the corner. But I've picked my team.

i dont think Canada will ever have its own premier league...but i the next step to grow CSL or USL-2 teams would be for them to compete with Montreal, Vancouver and TFC in the Canada Championship. Then maybe some smaller clubs fans would turn up and start supporting clubs closer to home. Imagine TFC away at some CSL team and them having some supporters chanting at us??? maybe its just a dream but i seriously think its the closest thing you would have to a Canadian league. It could help smaller clubs generate a bit of money to. And think we could go on a away trip to near by cities. It might take a few years to take off...but you never know it could work, it could easily be a bigger draw then the US Open Cup.

[Cashcleaner]

my guessing is its probably the 6th highest average attendence per game in the world. But No way its the 6th highest overall attendence in the world. There is no way 9 Canadian teams who play what only 18 games get more then leagues like NHL, NBA, MLB, NFL that have 30 teams and play twice, three times or even 4 times as much games. Even Soccer alone i couldnt see CFL having a total overall attendence over England, Italy, Spain, or Germany. They got 2 many teams and they play twice as much games as they do in CFL.

CFL averaging 30,000 a game (they only play 9 home games)........being 6th highest average attendence????? ya i could see that!

My bad, I meant attendance per-game. They've also been bumped down to 8th after the creation of the Indian Premier League (Cricket). Australian State Rep. games have also been introduced which knocks everyone down a spot.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/Cashcleaner/Table.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attendance_figures_at_domestic_professiona l_sports_leagues#cite_note-7

[Ossington Mental Youth]

It sounds funny but I can't wait to hear this question more often. It'll mean soccer has arrived when fans start challenging the fans of the big clubs in MLS as glory hunters instead of supporting their local.

But personally I just happened to look to support a team right before Toronto came to be and as you know most teams in their area moved out to Missisauga which had no appeal to me.

I truly hope I see a time when kids calls me a glory hunter for my Toronto shirt and a perfectly well supported CSL team is right around the corner. But I've picked my team.

That would be amazing, honestly
hopefully one day

[trane]

What is surprinsg is the attendance of many of what I would consider Second tear leagues, average attendance is under 20, 000. However, overall attendace tells a different story.

[jloome]

You have any links to any of this, I am interested in reading them.

You might still find it on the Voyageurs boards, it was on there for a long time when I was a regular a few years back.

The canadian league reticence from the business community has always been the big issue; many of them feel that without the tv advertising base here and regional coverage networks for TV, plus guaranteed early returns, that it's not worth getting into.

When the USL Aviators started in Edmonton a few years ago and failed after six games (attendance wasn't terrible by USL standards, they were actually sixth in the league at the time) because of poor management, it put a real damper on interest in investment out west. It's only the recent Beckham-mania that has reinvigorated that interest.

One of the big problems in Canada is that fledgling sports ventures tend to be pushed by people with way more heart than sense. In the case of the Aviators, a couple of businessmen snowed a bunch of other businessmen and left them with debts in the millions by promising a team that required 11,000 per game to meet its budget.

In the case of a more recent indoor loop started between Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg and Regina with the intent on eventually having an outdoor western league, one of their primary investors is, proveably, a swindler. They just never checked him out and, according to an interview I did with the league co-ordiantor, the sports investment community tends to run on word of mouth. "As far as I know he's a great guy," he told me, as I pored through SEC filings suggesting the guy's company has swindled about $14 million in penny stock out US residents.

What we need is something corporately driven, perhaps once Montreal or Vancouver is added to MLS, and put in place specifically as a premier canadian league that can feed the larger major league soccer. I still think the best route to that is to regionalize your schedule for minimal travel cost impact, then start by building from the existing elite grassroots structures.

[james]

What is surprinsg is the attendance of many of what I would consider Second tear leagues, average attendance is under 20, 000. However, overall attendace tells a different story.

what i found so suprissing is actually the opposite....some tier 1 Leagues in Europe have such a low attendence!

[trane]

^ That is because even in first leagues there are some very small stadiums and markets.

By to be clear was that the tear two leagues has smaller attendance that I thought.

[trane]

You might still find it on the Voyageurs boards, it was on there for a long time when I was a regular a few years back.

The canadian league reticence from the business community has always been the big issue; many of them feel that without the tv advertising base here and regional coverage networks for TV, plus guaranteed early returns, that it's not worth getting into.

When the USL Aviators started in Edmonton a few years ago and failed after six games (attendance wasn't terrible by USL standards, they were actually sixth in the league at the time) because of poor management, it put a real damper on interest in investment out west. It's only the recent Beckham-mania that has reinvigorated that interest.

One of the big problems in Canada is that fledgling sports ventures tend to be pushed by people with way more heart than sense. In the case of the Aviators, a couple of businessmen snowed a bunch of other businessmen and left them with debts in the millions by promising a team that required 11,000 per game to meet its budget.

In the case of a more recent indoor loop started between Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg and Regina with the intent on eventually having an outdoor western league, one of their primary investors is, proveably, a swindler. They just never checked him out and, according to an interview I did with the league co-ordiantor, the sports investment community tends to run on word of mouth. "As far as I know he's a great guy," he told me, as I pored through SEC filings suggesting the guy's company has swindled about $14 million in penny stock out US residents.

What we need is something corporately driven, perhaps once Montreal or Vancouver is added to MLS, and put in place specifically as a premier canadian league that can feed the larger major league soccer. I still think the best route to that is to regionalize your schedule for minimal travel cost impact, then start by building from the existing elite grassroots structures.

Thanks. Do you know of any corporate entities that have expressed any interest in this?

[ensco]

No.. (extra period added because minimum 4 characters required)

[Shakes McQueen]

It is called discussion. It will not likely happen now, but it can happen at some point, if the MLS does not grow, and TFC outgrows the league. I am starting to think, and it is too early to determine this, that the Toronto market may have more potential then the MLS can offer, and that therefore the MLS may limit TFC growth as well as a few other markets. At some point people will look at opntions.

Canada doesn't have the population or talent pool to outgrow MLS. And that is assuming we could even find enough cities to support teams, to have a real "league" in the first place.

Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver... maybe Edmonton, Calgary, Quebec City... then who?

Maybe 100 years from now, if football by that point is as big in the United States/Canada as it is in Europe, we could support our own league. Of course, our population will have likely tripled by then too.

Best we could hope for is a CFL-ish solution, with a league of 6-8 clubs that play each other several times a year, and ratings that aren't as high as MLS.

But of course, that isn't really a solution at all, as MLS TV ratings are already anemic.

- Scott

[RPB_Brantford_08]

Lets say a new an improved CSL. I know this is not going to happen. But what do you guys say?


the CSL was tried and it died after the 86 world cup...there is NO intesrest in a domestic league...the current CSL is a pub league.
MLS is here to stay, he just needs a good housing cleaning at the executive level...aka Garber. Once the MLS gets into more soccer friendly markets, Montreal, St Louis, Minnesota, Portland, New York -2nd team,
San Diego, the league will be fine.

[Beach_Red]

In the case of a more recent indoor loop started between Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg and Regina with the intent on eventually having an outdoor western league, one of their primary investors is, proveably, a swindler. They just never checked him out and, according to an interview I did with the league co-ordiantor, the sports investment community tends to run on word of mouth. "As far as I know he's a great guy," he told me, as I pored through SEC filings suggesting the guy's company has swindled about $14 million in penny stock out US residents.

Every sports league in North America was started by crooks and swindlers. I guess for the sake of lawsuits we should say those days are gone... (and you, in the city of Peter Pocklington :rolleyes:)

This idea of an outdoor western Canadian league is really good. I hope people keep working on it.

[Redcoe15]

Ain't gonna happen, Redgang. Canada's just too damn big a place with a sparce population spread thinly from sea to shiny sea. Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver are the only ones who could end up dominating the league with the rest of the teams struggling to keep up financially. Perhaps a league dominated annually by two or three teams is acceptable in some countries, but not here. Canada is better off in MLS with TFC, the Impact and the Whitecaps rather than having it's own top flight league.

And I know it's popular to squat and dump all over MLS right now, and with just cause, I might add. But the league is still a relatively new one. It's come a long way from it's baby years where they wore hideous looking kits and played a shootout to break ties at the end of regulation. Give it more time for it to continue maturing into the soccer league we all want to see become.

[trane]

^ My cocern that the US soccer sentibilites, taste and what the market is used to in terms of sport franchises will never let it become what it can become. I am not sure if my feeling is right or not but it is a growing concern.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

^ My cocern that the US soccer sentibilites, taste and what the market is used to in terms of sport franchises will never let it become what it can become. I am not sure if my feeling is right or not but it is a growing concern.

Its reasonable however i think at this point its grown out of those things and continues to do so as the MLS knows it needs to cater to the intelligent soccer player as opposed to the casual fan

[Ossington Mental Youth]

There are changes that need to be made to advance and ideally those will be dealt with in the next 5-10 years appropriately, most of those concerns have been around for a while and are becoming mroe and more of a factor with stuff like international tournaments

[trane]

^ I think you points are fair. Even if we stay in MLS and Vancouver and Montreal join, we need to develope a stronger national league, something along the lines of jloome's suggestion.

[rocktml]

I would support TFC no matter what.

T.O Till I DIE!

[giambac]

Lets say a new an improved CSL. I know this is not going to happen. But what do you guys say?


How about the beach soccer league......

They could make goal posts with the seas sheels.

[REDPATCHGRL74]

I just do not see it as such a bad thing. I would say that there is room for another sothern Ontario Team, somewhere west of Toronto, KW or Hamilton/Niagara. So you have four big clubs, Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto, and that other team. That is no unlike many European leagues. You organise in three divisions ten teams each with relegation. Teams of various sizes, some kind of Canadian Cup, and you have the makings of a real league. It is not impossible.

I believe that the KW area could support a team. There is about 600 000 people in the surrounding area. It's ironic that a few of us have discussed this , and everyone of us feels the same way. Mr. Balsile the NHL won't let you in, so how about a futebol club. Waterloo United, why not?

[VoxPopuliCosmicum]

Thanks. Do you know of any corporate entities that have expressed any interest in this?

I am in regular contact with a wealthy individual who is willing to spend money on a new team for Toronto. I've been talking to him about USL-1, and more recently about splitting ownership with the public through an IPO. I saw there was a thread discussing a strategy for a publicly-owned team but I thought it didn't go anywhere.

I also saw the stuff on the V's website along the same lines.

Are there still people interested in doing this, and, if so, are they interested in doing it along side a single investor?

[Crazy Canuck]

I dont think Ottawa, Calgary, Halifax, Moncton, Winnipeg, Edmonton would have sell out crowds tho.

3 team does not make a good league


Common Ottawa follows everything Toronto does for sure they would spring a hype. Living in Calgary and seeing the many amateur leagues, I think if they were to create a soccer specific stadium it could develope in cowtown. Its no Toronto but better than colorado.

[rocktml]

Toronto F.C

A.F.C Edmonton

Vancouver Whitecaps

A.C Calgary

Hamilton Rovers

Montreal Impact

Ottawa Athletic

Victoria F.C

Quebec City

St. John's

[VPjr]

You have any links to any of this, I am interested in reading them.

PM me your email address and I'll forward it to you....its a good read.

[trane]

Toronto F.C


A.F.C Edmonton
Vancouver Whitecaps
A.C Calgary
Hamilton Rovers
Montreal Impact
Ottawa Athletic
Victoria F.C
Quebec City


St. John's


I would love to see it.

[VPjr]

I am in regular contact with a wealthy individual who is willing to spend money on a new team for Toronto. I've been talking to him about USL-1, and more recently about splitting ownership with the public through an IPO. I saw there was a thread discussing a strategy for a publicly-owned team but I thought it didn't go anywhere.

I also saw the stuff on the V's website along the same lines.

Are there still people interested in doing this, and, if so, are they interested in doing it along side a single investor?


I'd personally be very interested. I have already committed to buying shares, sight unseen, in the "own our club" concept. I'd be prepared to invest a good chunk of change.

The MLS will not be good for Canadian soccer for a long time. I'm convinced of it. That doesn't mean TFC can't be good for soccer in Toronto. Its a big club, with solid ownership (who unfortunately know absolutely nothing about soccer and thus we are stuck with the idiots running the soccer dept) and rabid supporters. I will always support TFC but I've lost faith in this league and I'm going to need to see alot of change quickly for that faith to be restored. I've become more interested in growing Canadian soccer at the "lower" professional levels. This is where our young players have a real hope of starting a career as a soccer professional, where they can be paid a fair wage (not the pittance young players earn in MLS).

At the end of the day, the priorities of the MLS and American soccer don't mesh with the priorities of Canadian soccer. Whitecaps are doing more right now for developing Canadian talent than TFC ever will under the current rules MLS has in place. The USL doesn't micromanage its teams. that is a league I would prefer to be involved in if I owned a club.

[GhostPK]

If this were the case then I would hope the league would not be called CSL. Theres no reason to follow CFL NFL or even MLB. "Major" shouldnt be a part of a league's name unless it has credibility issues. I would hope that a canadian league would have a diverse enough following that "soccer" would also not be contained in the league's name. Footy or footyball is a much better description of what the sport actually is than that of soccer. What the hell is a socc?

[trane]

I'd personally be very interested. I have already committed to buying shares, sight unseen, in the "own our club" concept. I'd be prepared to invest a good chunk of change.

The MLS will not be good for Canadian soccer for a long time. I'm convinced of it. That doesn't mean TFC can't be good for soccer in Toronto. Its a big club, with solid ownership (who unfortunately know absolutely nothing about soccer and thus we are stuck with the idiots running the soccer dept) and rabid supporters. I will always support TFC but I've lost faith in this league and I'm going to need to see alot of change quickly for that faith to be restored. I've become more interested in growing Canadian soccer at the "lower" professional levels. This is where our young players have a real hope of starting a career as a soccer professional, where they can be paid a fair wage (not the pittance young players earn in MLS).

At the end of the day, the priorities of the MLS and American soccer don't mesh with the priorities of Canadian soccer. Whitecaps are doing more right now for developing Canadian talent than TFC ever will under the current rules MLS has in place. The USL doesn't micromanage its teams. that is a league I would prefer to be involved in if I owned a club.

Agreed. I am not against MLS per se, I just see a conflict of goals. I would defenetly invest in a reasonalb proposition.

[SilverSamurai]

I believe that the KW area could support a team. There is about 600 000 people in the surrounding area. It's ironic that a few of us have discussed this , and everyone of us feels the same way. Mr. Balsile the NHL won't let you in, so how about a futebol club. Waterloo United, why not?

I don't think footy could survive in K-W. Their simply not enough $$$ to go around. Having lived in Cambridge and K-W (grew up their pretty much) it wouldn't have the corporate support it needs to stay afloat. Sure RIM is a good sponsor, but would they do it for footy? Seems like the one owner only wants hockey.
Toyota is likely since they are sponsors for Chicago's grounds, but what else? I don't see Schneider's getting on board except maybe to cross-promote Oktoberfest, which I suppose is a start. Same with Clarica. I mean if they were interested, they'd sponsors for TFC which is only 100km away (more or less) and they'd be given national coverage.
Also the public transportation is terrible in K-W and that definitely wouldn't help.
Hamilton was a better location since they are closer to TO and Go Transit for the out of towners.
K-W has been saying they're getting a Go Transit link for how long now? 10 years or so?
Anyways K-W is a bad idea, but maybe a CSL team could work as a pilot.

IMO, their should be more promotion of CIAU teams (university teams) which are already set up and do have cross-country games. Although travelling fans might have problems, especially if they majority are on student budgets...

[VPjr]

Toronto F.C


A.F.C Edmonton
Vancouver Whitecaps
A.C Calgary
Hamilton Rovers
Montreal Impact
Ottawa Athletic
Victoria F.C
Quebec City


St. John's


I really, truly believe that the Guelph/Waterloo/Kitchener/London corridor could also support a team. These are vibrant, growing communities with quite a bit of new money, and I'd be willing to bet that there are some footy lovers with a bunch of money kicking around willing to invest.

Winnipeg could possibly be an option too. There is big money in Winnipeg but I don't know if pro soccer is viable in a province where soccer at the youth level is shrinking.

I'm not sure about the Maritimes either. I love eastern canada but the season is too short.

The key to developing a Canadian league or a Canadian USL division is getting large Canadian corporations involved at the ground floor.

[trane]

^ I also feel that the west end of the Southern Ontario, as Guelph/Waterloo/Kitchener/London can support a team. Has good corporate presence and not disimilar demographics to Toronto.

[Nazzer]

A Canadian based league can't attract the big numbers, or the beckhams or get the visibilty it needs.

We would never get the scale here, I think you give toronto, and canadians way too much credit. If TFC had been launched in an 'elite' CSL type league..it would have failed. We wouldn't have had the europe connections, got the rookie of the year, gotten european coverage for his move, or been part of the MLS coverage that is happening iinitally due to beckham

If a top level Canadian league was started by taking established franchises such as TFC, Impact and the Whitecaps then the league would likely be granted spots in the CONCACAF CHampions League from the outset. If Panama gets two spots in the tournament then a proper Canadian league should too. Maybe even by this time a secondary concacaf tournament would be happening so then the top teams would be getting exposure.

[VoxPopuliCosmicum]

I'd personally be very interested. I have already committed to buying shares, sight unseen, in the "own our club" concept. I'd be prepared to invest a good chunk of change.

The MLS will not be good for Canadian soccer for a long time. I'm convinced of it. That doesn't mean TFC can't be good for soccer in Toronto. Its a big club, with solid ownership (who unfortunately know absolutely nothing about soccer and thus we are stuck with the idiots running the soccer dept) and rabid supporters. I will always support TFC but I've lost faith in this league and I'm going to need to see alot of change quickly for that faith to be restored. I've become more interested in growing Canadian soccer at the "lower" professional levels. This is where our young players have a real hope of starting a career as a soccer professional, where they can be paid a fair wage (not the pittance young players earn in MLS).

At the end of the day, the priorities of the MLS and American soccer don't mesh with the priorities of Canadian soccer. Whitecaps are doing more right now for developing Canadian talent than TFC ever will under the current rules MLS has in place. The USL doesn't micromanage its teams. that is a league I would prefer to be involved in if I owned a club.

Dino, are you going to Montreal this weekend? If so, let's talk at the Peel Pub (before things get too out of hand).

Otherwise, maybe on the 13th?

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Lets say a new an improved CSL. I know this is not going to happen. But what do you guys say?
I say hell yes, and down the road, maybe thirty years from now, I do see a Canadian Premier League coming into existence. Maybe we'll even have three or four teams in Toronto and Montreal, that would be great. I think these are cities that could support a team right now:

Vancouver
Calgary
Edmonton
Winnipeg
London
Toronto
Brampton
Quebec
Montreal
St. John's (the location of Canada's historic triumph...)

And maybe multiple teams in a couple of those cities. After all, in the football league alone there are all kinds of teams from London, Toronto and Montreal could support at least two teams each, I'm sure.

[Oldtimer]

I am in regular contact with a wealthy individual who is willing to spend money on a new team for Toronto. I've been talking to him about USL-1, and more recently about splitting ownership with the public through an IPO. I saw there was a thread discussing a strategy for a publicly-owned team but I thought it didn't go anywhere.

I also saw the stuff on the V's website along the same lines.

Are there still people interested in doing this, and, if so, are they interested in doing it along side a single investor?

Do it in Hamilton. There would be more interest there. Torontonians will never support a second-tier team.

[joel]

If a top level Canadian league was started by taking established franchises such as TFC, Impact and the Whitecaps then the league would likely be granted spots in the CONCACAF CHampions League from the outset. If Panama gets two spots in the tournament then a proper Canadian league should too. Maybe even by this time a secondary concacaf tournament would be happening so then the top teams would be getting exposure.

Right but when I talk about 'exposure', I mean money. I just don't think the money is in canada to support it. Not enough TV money (by way of not enough canadians watching it on TV) in it if US networks aren't showing your games etc..

[jabbronies]

I don't think I would. I had no interest in the CLS, NASL, OSL or any other Canadian Soccer league in the past. I don't see what would be different now than before. Fact is: The U.S has the money to bring in big players, have big stadiums, big sponsors etc needed to support a league. The U.S. has a better talent pool then Canada as well. Good U.S. Players will not come here. Good overseas players will not come here either knowing that they won't be visiting big cities like Ny or LA.

[AL-MO]

I don't think I would. I had no interest in the CLS, NASL, OSL or any other Canadian Soccer league in the past. I don't see what would be different now than before. Fact is: The U.S has the money to bring in big players, have big stadiums, big sponsors etc needed to support a league. The U.S. has a better talent pool then Canada as well. Good U.S. Players will not come here. Good overseas players will not come here either knowing that they won't be visiting big cities like Ny or LA.

Wonderful.

[denime]

The way I look at this is really simple,I support TFC no matter what league they are playing.

[james]

I say hell yes, and down the road, maybe thirty years from now, I do see a Canadian Premier League coming into existence. Maybe we'll even have three or four teams in Toronto and Montreal, that would be great. I think these are cities that could support a team right now:

Vancouver
Calgary
Edmonton
Winnipeg
London
Toronto
Brampton
Quebec
Montreal
St. John's (the location of Canada's historic triumph...)

And maybe multiple teams in a couple of those cities. After all, in the football league alone there are all kinds of teams from London, Toronto and Montreal could support at least two teams each, I'm sure.

i bet Hamilton would support a team over Brampton, and Halifax would support a team over St.John's

[TorCanSoc]

I dont' get the anti-American sentiment sometimes I really don't. They've got the model we aspire to replicate in soccer. U.S. from joke of CONCACAF to top of CONCACAF since the league started.

I'm not sure smaller-time soccer is going succeed. Because that's what will happen. I mean L.A., NY Chicago versus the Kitchener Krunchers, Trois Riviere Tabernacs or Truro Titans.

We're taking the biggest league we have, and trying to scale it down to smaller towns and have the same kind of passion.

Local home grown talented soccer teams also known as the A-League. Failed in Edmonton, Calgary and Toronto.

I like MLS. Its the best we have. This is the starting point. Remember its a ten year old league. Why go back to square one? This is a league that is trying to expand by making profits, not over-expand with big owner hobby-teams. This league is not afraid of change. Its not weighed down by a huge history, everything can be scrutinized and altered to meet the needs of its fans, owners, and soccer.

Long Live MLS.

[Cashcleaner]

How about this...


Canadian Premier Soccer League

Atlantic Schooners FC (Halifax)
Quebec Citadel FC
Montreal Impact FC
Ottawa AFC
Toronto FC
Winnipeg AFC
Alberta Chinook FC (Calgary)
Vancouver Whitecaps FC

[Bars92]

In my basement I have an old USA jersey from when I was a wee kid. I still believe in American soccer and that TFC is part of a larger project.

[windsorlad111]

Scarlett's a little more homely and down to earth, but no one should pass up the chance to bone Jolie.

(cue Womb Raider gag)

[Waggy]

We're thinking too North American here. For a league like that to work, it'd have to look like this:

Montreal
Quebec City
Ottawa
Edmonton and or Calgary
Vancouver
Toronto FC
FC Scarborough
Inter Toronto (either in the danforth area or maybe St Clair/Dufferin)
AC Etobicoke

Sure the other 2 toronto teams may not get and fill 20 000 seat stadiums at first, but they'd probably be as well supported as any other club outside of TFC. And talk about rivalries. Imagine that Toronto FC vs Inter Toronto derby. Just play up on the international flavor of Toronto. The Italian (or greek depending on the area) team vs the all toronto team? Wanna talk about passion?! That'd make Leafs/Sens, or Argos/Ticats look like a TFC vs Crew match

[Shakes McQueen]

We're thinking too North American here. For a league like that to work, it'd have to look like this:

Montreal
Quebec City
Ottawa
Edmonton and or Calgary
Vancouver
Toronto FC
FC Scarborough
Inter Toronto (either in the danforth area or maybe St Clair/Dufferin)
AC Etobicoke

Sure the other 2 toronto teams may not get and fill 20 000 seat stadiums at first, but they'd probably be as well supported as any other club outside of TFC. And talk about rivalries. Imagine that Toronto FC vs Inter Toronto derby. Just play up on the international flavor of Toronto. The Italian (or greek depending on the area) team vs the all toronto team? Wanna talk about passion?! That'd make Leafs/Sens, or Argos/Ticats look like a TFC vs Crew match

You really think the GTA could support FOUR different football clubs?

Hockey is Canada's biggest sport, and the NHL is wary of putting a franchise in Hamilton, because it would cannibalize support for the Leafs.

- Scott

[RealG-TFC]

Some of the teams that you will think "pffft you serious?" would obviously come later than the obvious ones.

St. John's Athletic Club
Halifax Mariners FC or Nova Scotia Mariners FC
Quebec Voltigeurs?
Montreal Impact!
Olympique de Montreal
Ottawa United
Toronto FC!
Mississauga "something"
Hamilton Steelers FC
London City!
Windsor Boder Stars*!
Winnipeg Alliance FC!
Calgary United FC!
Edmonton Drillers!
Vancouver Whitecaps FC!
Victoria United FC**!

! - Existing club
*they hopefully go through a name change
** Merge between Victoria United and Victoria Highlanders?
underlined - league founding clubs

[Cashcleaner]

I have to admit, I do like the idea of a Toronto derby between Toronto FC and perhaps Toronto International FC.

[trane]

I would love any GTA derby.

[NF-FC]

purely fantasy but...

2 Divisions
Pro/Rel for top and bottom 2
8 Teams each
Every team plays each other 4 times for a 28 game sched

League 1

Toronto
Montreal
Vancouver
Ottawa
Calgary
Edmonton
Hamilton
Winnipeg

League 2

Quebec City
Halifax
Saskatchewan
St. John's
Victoria
London
Toronto II
Moncton

[Cashcleaner]

We can agree that a single tier of soccer is feasible, but I have serious doubts about a 1st and 2nd division scenario.

Though, playing each team 4 times sounds pretty cool.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

You really think the GTA could support FOUR different football clubs?

Hockey is Canada's biggest sport, and the NHL is wary of putting a franchise in Hamilton, because it would cannibalize support for the Leafs.

- ScottThat's because Gary Bettman can't admit that Canada is ten times the hockey country the US is. ;) I don't think we could support four clubs yet, I think two at the most.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I'd think that the growth of Canadian MLS teams should help the interest of Canadian soccer through all levels. It's improved greatly thus far. Let's hope it continues. I want to see the USL spots we leave replaced by other Canadian teams. (Calling Ottawa, London, Victoria)