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View Full Version : Cut the gutless, keep the fighters



jloome
09-01-2008, 01:56 PM
Saturday's exhibition by Toronto FC -- I hesitate on any level to call it a "performance" -- demonstrated a few painful truths that have been common to every loss this year.

That's saying something: up until now, I'd really been willing to give enough of the benefit of the doubt to the players to blame specific failings from game to game and a generally poor team approach.

But when it comes down to it, if you look at the skill level the first team players at TFC are supposed to have versus their performances, the principal problem with this team is a lack of heart and pride.

Struck by an inability to bring in the players he wanted, Mo Johnston has resorted to veterans who, while individually skilled, no longer have the will to push to the nuts for a win.

Regardless of their skill level, the following players routinely demonstrate a lack of intensity and commitment to winning, generally reflected in a lack of defensive intensity, poor positioning and poor communication. I think they poison the team and should be gone or, at best, backups.

Amado Guevara -- Doesn't play defense, doesn't track to the midfield and can be seen at least twice a game arguing with Robinson. Still can't speak fluent english after a decade in the league, and therefore is difficult to communicate with. As a one-way player, he has to be able to play in the hole, because he's useless to us in the middle of the park. And that forces us into 4-5-1 variations, which don't seem effective in a spaced, short-pass based league like MLS. You'll very rarely see most teams caught as far forward as we are, because it's not the league's style to be that direct. So Guevara's usefullness becomes quite limited even though his skill his high.

Plus, on any given game -- and Chivas was a prime example -- he looks like he just doesn't give a shit. No fight equals gonzo.

Ty Marshall -- The best central defender we have, but is slow as molasses and on top of that seems to have calmed right down from his days at the original "HArmse" style player. Simply lacks intensity; he'd be a good backup central defender but lacks the fight to start.

Velez - Lacks the intensity he had when he joined the team. Playing game in and out seems to have imbued him with comfortable confidence. Unfortunately, he's not good enough for comfortable confidence. This guy needs to play like he's on speed just to keep up. Bench fodder at best, more likely back to the USL.

Julius James - Has the physical tools but doesn't appear, at 22, to have the head for the game. 22 is not a rook any more in football terms these days, and the guy's positioning and concentration are simply fucking horrendous. A ball watcher of grotesque proportions.

Sutton -- Even though he has single-handeldy won several games, I believe he's a backup at this level unless you have a very solid defense, which we don't. He's a really good reaction keeper, and he'll stop lots of breakaways and close in chances; but his head is not in the damn game and he makes poor decisions. That's the only way to describe some of his lapses, particularly on his handling of long shots and clearances. Doesn't seem confident and certainly lacks intensity. He and the backline don't talk nearly as much as they should, or they're not listening to him. If we can't rebuild our defense to the level of strength that will accomodate his weakeness, we need someone stronger. Isn't Pickens coming back from England?

Kevin Harmse - Among his numerous faults is a surprising lack of intensity off the ball. He's a hard man going into the tackle and in the last few games Carver has obviously instructed him to try and get forward a little, but mostly he just runs back and forward the length of the field, hardly ever touching the ball and occasionally nearly crippling someone. Get fucking real.

Chad Barrett -- Skills notwithstanding, he's a backup striker not a starter. We don't necessarily need to get rid of him, but what the fuck is wrong with this guy? He's obviously got the physical skills and he pulls of some amazing shit, then misses two sitters. Plus, he's continually cramping up after 60 mins. which to me suggest there's something wrong with his diet, his lifestyle or his natural physiology. What kid his age can't run for a full game?


It's too early to judge on Ruiz but I suspect the commitment issue might be there; he looked just all right on Saturday, but very positionally aware. But there wasn't much intensity there.


Basically, of the starters I'd keep:
Rohan Ricketts
Jo Smith
Carl Robinson
Jim Brennan
Marvell Wynne
Danny Dichio

Of the existing bench players I'd give extra time and maybe even rotational starting time to:

Tyler Rosenlund
Nana Attakora
Gabe Gala

As all play with enough intensity and skill to compete. Maybe not star, but compete. Right now, we've got too many fucking stars and not enough competitors.

I'd keep Ibee, but he's young and needs time to develop. Plus, someone has to inject some fire into his belly, as again he looks all skill no fight right now.

The rest are a toss up.

jayeden
09-01-2008, 01:57 PM
what a waste of time for u to type all that..go to the game and support your team

rocker
09-01-2008, 02:06 PM
julius james is 24, not 22... which is even scarier... I'd say Attakora is way ahead of him on the depth chart. attakora is better at age 19.

jloome
09-01-2008, 02:22 PM
what a waste of time for u to type all that..go to the game and support your team

Actually, those of us with the literacy skills to spell "you" properly can type pretty quickly.

jloome
09-01-2008, 02:23 PM
julius james is 24, not 22... which is even scarier... I'd say Attakora is way ahead of him on the depth chart. attakora is better at age 19.

He looked poised and composed and intense filling in for Wynne, none of which are descriptions I'd apply to James.

jayeden
09-01-2008, 02:24 PM
Actually, those of us with the literacy skills to spell "you" properly can type pretty quickly.

congratulations to u

rocker
09-01-2008, 02:35 PM
james seems like a great physical specimen who needs to learn a LOT about the game.
24 is kinda late for that though... he could have a decent MLS career if he has the potential to learn and grow.. but he will probably never be anything more than an average MLS player. Attakora looks like he has the futbol IQ + physical attributes to definitely be a starter in this league.

shwade
09-01-2008, 02:42 PM
I don't think Jo Smith is ready to start yet...he tries to be too fancy and ends up giving the ball away. And when there's space he needs to know that he can cut inside, he doesn't always have to go wide.
Julius James has some good attacking qualities, but as a defender he lacks a lot, definitely not ready.
And I disagree about Guevara, he makes a lot of good tackles and treks back to play defence quite a bit, which not a lot of attacking midfielders do.

Nuvinho
09-01-2008, 02:43 PM
James is being played out of his natural CB position. You are asking a rookie to first learn the game in MLS, and at the same time you change his position to where he hasn't played before.

Why is Velez prefered offer him at CB. JJ will be a good CB in this league, he won't be a good LB.

RPB_Brantford_08
09-01-2008, 02:44 PM
Saturday's exhibition by Toronto FC -- I hesitate on any level to call it a "performance" -- demonstrated a few painful truths that have been common to every loss this year.

That's saying something: up until now, I'd really been willing to give enough of the benefit of the doubt to the players to blame specific failings from game to game and a generally poor team approach.

But when it comes down to it, if you look at the skill level the first team players at TFC are supposed to have versus their performances, the principal problem with this team is a lack of heart and pride.

Struck by an inability to bring in the players he wanted, Mo Johnston has resorted to veterans who, while individually skilled, no longer have the will to push to the nuts for a win.

Regardless of their skill level, the following players routinely demonstrate a lack of intensity and commitment to winning, generally reflected in a lack of defensive intensity, poor positioning and poor communication. I think they poison the team and should be gone or, at best, backups.

Amado Guevara -- Doesn't play defense, doesn't track to the midfield and can be seen at least twice a game arguing with Robinson. Still can't speak fluent english after a decade in the league, and therefore is difficult to communicate with. As a one-way player, he has to be able to play in the hole, because he's useless to us in the middle of the park. And that forces us into 4-5-1 variations, which don't seem effective in a spaced, short-pass based league like MLS. You'll very rarely see most teams caught as far forward as we are, because it's not the league's style to be that direct. So Guevara's usefullness becomes quite limited even though his skill his high.

Plus, on any given game -- and Chivas was a prime example -- he looks like he just doesn't give a shit. No fight equals gonzo.

Ty Marshall -- The best central defender we have, but is slow as molasses and on top of that seems to have calmed right down from his days at the original "HArmse" style player. Simply lacks intensity; he'd be a good backup central defender but lacks the fight to start.

Velez - Lacks the intensity he had when he joined the team. Playing game in and out seems to have imbued him with comfortable confidence. Unfortunately, he's not good enough for comfortable confidence. This guy needs to play like he's on speed just to keep up. Bench fodder at best, more likely back to the USL.

Julius James - Has the physical tools but doesn't appear, at 22, to have the head for the game. 22 is not a rook any more in football terms these days, and the guy's positioning and concentration are simply fucking horrendous. A ball watcher of grotesque proportions.

Sutton -- Even though he has single-handeldy won several games, I believe he's a backup at this level unless you have a very solid defense, which we don't. He's a really good reaction keeper, and he'll stop lots of breakaways and close in chances; but his head is not in the damn game and he makes poor decisions. That's the only way to describe some of his lapses, particularly on his handling of long shots and clearances. Doesn't seem confident and certainly lacks intensity. He and the backline don't talk nearly as much as they should, or they're not listening to him. If we can't rebuild our defense to the level of strength that will accomodate his weakeness, we need someone stronger. Isn't Pickens coming back from England?

Kevin Harmse - Among his numerous faults is a surprising lack of intensity off the ball. He's a hard man going into the tackle and in the last few games Carver has obviously instructed him to try and get forward a little, but mostly he just runs back and forward the length of the field, hardly ever touching the ball and occasionally nearly crippling someone. Get fucking real.

Chad Barrett -- Skills notwithstanding, he's a backup striker not a starter. We don't necessarily need to get rid of him, but what the fuck is wrong with this guy? He's obviously got the physical skills and he pulls of some amazing shit, then misses two sitters. Plus, he's continually cramping up after 60 mins. which to me suggest there's something wrong with his diet, his lifestyle or his natural physiology. What kid his age can't run for a full game?


It's too early to judge on Ruiz but I suspect the commitment issue might be there; he looked just all right on Saturday, but very positionally aware. But there wasn't much intensity there.


Basically, of the starters I'd keep:
Rohan Ricketts
Jo Smith
Carl Robinson
Jim Brennan
Marvell Wynne
Danny Dichio

Of the existing bench players I'd give extra time and maybe even rotational starting time to:

Tyler Rosenlund
Nana Attakora
Gabe Gala

As all play with enough intensity and skill to compete. Maybe not star, but compete. Right now, we've got too many fucking stars and not enough competitors.

I'd keep Ibee, but he's young and needs time to develop. Plus, someone has to inject some fire into his belly, as again he looks all skill no fight right now.

The rest are a toss up.


you would keep brennan..a total 5 hole on defence, he has let more players by him to score goals then anyone on the team...remember
the lack of coverage by Jimmy B on the gola Montreal scored and
won the canadian championship for the Impact, and where was Jimmy B on the first chivas goal...sleeping like the rest of the defence...so if you are talking a clear out add jimmy b to the list cause he is a weak link back there.

shwade
09-01-2008, 02:44 PM
JJ as a central defender would be scary, he's too hesitant when he goes in for tackles and he allows them too much space to move.

Keegan
09-01-2008, 02:49 PM
Attakora Gyan is not only going to be a starter in the MLS. He is probably going to jump for Europe and start for the Men's Team in a couple of years.

As good as he looked at RB, he is actually a center back. See the Canada U20s tie Argentina? He was great in that game as was Gabe Gala.

rocker
09-01-2008, 02:59 PM
JJ will be 25 during the middle of next season. don't you guys think that's a bit old for a prospect? particularly at this level. yes, he's a rookie so you have to expect rookie mistakes this season... but he's not a young kid either.
if he was 19 or 20 I'd have a very different opinion on his potential... hmmmmmmm....
his biggest strength right now is in the air, but that's mostly on the offensive side.

RPB_Brantford_08
09-01-2008, 02:59 PM
Attakora Gyan is not only going to be a starter in the MLS. He is probably going to jump for Europe and start for the Men's Team in a couple of years.

As good as he looked at RB, he is actually a center back. See the Canada U20s tie Argentina? He was great in that game as was Gabe Gala.


Lets hope that nats pick him up..and maybe he will start for TFC next season...Gala should be in there too,but then whn Canada needs players TFC would be left hanging again!! so what does TFC do try and bring in canadians,or bring in foreign players that likely won;t get called up?
tough choice for Mo and Carver.

Beach_Red
09-01-2008, 03:37 PM
This is the character devloping phase all expansion teams go through. This will set the stage for years to come.

I don't know about soccer, but with this league set up like other North American sports, this looks a lot like a hockey expansion team. In that case, the expansion teams that started winning quickly usually did it by trading draft picks for veterans and then when those guys retired (or just lost a step and stayed around anyway because they had such big, long-term contracts that only an expansion team would give them) the team took a big step backwards.

Nothing here is surprising or unusual except fans who seem to think the team would be championship quality by now.

I can't think if a team that became a champion without going through some very bad "character-building" stuff.

So yeah, keep the fighters and cut the ones who don't play hard.

MG42
09-01-2008, 03:53 PM
good post jloome, I totally agree, we need guys out there who would give anything to win a game, not just brush it off...did you see the devestaion on Ricketts face after we lost the Canada Cup? That's what I want to see out of every player.

CretanBull
09-01-2008, 04:09 PM
Saturday's exhibition by Toronto FC -- I hesitate on any level to call it a "performance" -- demonstrated a few painful truths that have been common to every loss this year.

That's saying something: up until now, I'd really been willing to give enough of the benefit of the doubt to the players to blame specific failings from game to game and a generally poor team approach.

But when it comes down to it, if you look at the skill level the first team players at TFC are supposed to have versus their performances, the principal problem with this team is a lack of heart and pride.

Struck by an inability to bring in the players he wanted, Mo Johnston has resorted to veterans who, while individually skilled, no longer have the will to push to the nuts for a win.

Regardless of their skill level, the following players routinely demonstrate a lack of intensity and commitment to winning, generally reflected in a lack of defensive intensity, poor positioning and poor communication. I think they poison the team and should be gone or, at best, backups.

Amado Guevara -- Doesn't play defense, doesn't track to the midfield and can be seen at least twice a game arguing with Robinson. Still can't speak fluent english after a decade in the league, and therefore is difficult to communicate with. As a one-way player, he has to be able to play in the hole, because he's useless to us in the middle of the park. And that forces us into 4-5-1 variations, which don't seem effective in a spaced, short-pass based league like MLS. You'll very rarely see most teams caught as far forward as we are, because it's not the league's style to be that direct. So Guevara's usefullness becomes quite limited even though his skill his high.

Plus, on any given game -- and Chivas was a prime example -- he looks like he just doesn't give a shit. No fight equals gonzo.

Ty Marshall -- The best central defender we have, but is slow as molasses and on top of that seems to have calmed right down from his days at the original "HArmse" style player. Simply lacks intensity; he'd be a good backup central defender but lacks the fight to start.

Velez - Lacks the intensity he had when he joined the team. Playing game in and out seems to have imbued him with comfortable confidence. Unfortunately, he's not good enough for comfortable confidence. This guy needs to play like he's on speed just to keep up. Bench fodder at best, more likely back to the USL.

Julius James - Has the physical tools but doesn't appear, at 22, to have the head for the game. 22 is not a rook any more in football terms these days, and the guy's positioning and concentration are simply fucking horrendous. A ball watcher of grotesque proportions.

Sutton -- Even though he has single-handeldy won several games, I believe he's a backup at this level unless you have a very solid defense, which we don't. He's a really good reaction keeper, and he'll stop lots of breakaways and close in chances; but his head is not in the damn game and he makes poor decisions. That's the only way to describe some of his lapses, particularly on his handling of long shots and clearances. Doesn't seem confident and certainly lacks intensity. He and the backline don't talk nearly as much as they should, or they're not listening to him. If we can't rebuild our defense to the level of strength that will accomodate his weakeness, we need someone stronger. Isn't Pickens coming back from England?

Kevin Harmse - Among his numerous faults is a surprising lack of intensity off the ball. He's a hard man going into the tackle and in the last few games Carver has obviously instructed him to try and get forward a little, but mostly he just runs back and forward the length of the field, hardly ever touching the ball and occasionally nearly crippling someone. Get fucking real.

Chad Barrett -- Skills notwithstanding, he's a backup striker not a starter. We don't necessarily need to get rid of him, but what the fuck is wrong with this guy? He's obviously got the physical skills and he pulls of some amazing shit, then misses two sitters. Plus, he's continually cramping up after 60 mins. which to me suggest there's something wrong with his diet, his lifestyle or his natural physiology. What kid his age can't run for a full game?


It's too early to judge on Ruiz but I suspect the commitment issue might be there; he looked just all right on Saturday, but very positionally aware. But there wasn't much intensity there.


Basically, of the starters I'd keep:
Rohan Ricketts
Jo Smith
Carl Robinson
Jim Brennan
Marvell Wynne
Danny Dichio

Of the existing bench players I'd give extra time and maybe even rotational starting time to:

Tyler Rosenlund
Nana Attakora
Gabe Gala

As all play with enough intensity and skill to compete. Maybe not star, but compete. Right now, we've got too many fucking stars and not enough competitors.

I'd keep Ibee, but he's young and needs time to develop. Plus, someone has to inject some fire into his belly, as again he looks all skill no fight right now.

The rest are a toss up.

I'm willing to give Barrett & James time to fit in with the team, and I think that Sutton would be better with better D in front of him, but for the most part QFT!!

jabbronies
09-01-2008, 04:28 PM
I'm willing to give Barrett & James time to fit in with the team, and I think that Sutton would be better with better D in front of him, but for the most part QFT!!


Agreed...This is only James' first year in the league and he doesn't really have anyone on the D line to look up to right now and learn from. Give him another two years, then I'll pass serious judgment on him. For now, he's still a rookie in my eyes.

Barrett will come through. I'll keep my faith in him for now....for now.

I'm on the fence with Sutton. yes, he has made some amazing saves and has kept us in games for the most part. but when he fucks up, it's not because of his D, it's because he does stupid things that should be basic goalie skills - Coming out and challenging the ball more; not booting the ball into no mans land or passing it up to the attacking forwards - we've lost possesion so many times because he's willing to give it a boot rather than make a smart pass to a defender or bring it up a bit.

CretanBull
09-01-2008, 05:19 PM
I'm on the fence with Sutton. yes, he has made some amazing saves and has kept us in games for the most part. but when he fucks up, it's not because of his D, it's because he does stupid things that should be basic goalie skills - Coming out and challenging the ball more; not booting the ball into no mans land or passing it up to the attacking forwards - we've lost possesion so many times because he's willing to give it a boot rather than make a smart pass to a defender or bring it up a bit.

I think Sutton's ball distribution is poor. In his mind though, he's probably tired of the piss-poor transition game that our D's have, so he'd rather boot it up field and hope for the best than have a turn over in the shallow mid-field. A lot of his mental mistakes probably stem from being frustrated by the shitty D in front of him. I don't think that he's the best keeper ever, but I think that if he had 4 reliable Ds playing in front of him he'd be able to focus on things a little better and we'd have a solid MLS keeper.

OneLoveOneEric
09-01-2008, 05:34 PM
The classic Maple Leafs approach -- grit over talent.
Love it.

The Oz
09-01-2008, 05:37 PM
I think Sutton's ball distribution is poor. In his mind though, he's probably tired of the piss-poor transition game that our D's have, so he'd rather boot it up field and hope for the best than have a turn over in the shallow mid-field. A lot of his mental mistakes probably stem from being frustrated by the shitty D in front of him. I don't think that he's the best keeper ever, but I think that if he had 4 reliable Ds playing in front of him he'd be able to focus on things a little better and we'd have a solid MLS keeper.

agreed, sutton plays with just as much heart with anyone on the team if not more. could his ball distribution be better? yeah sure, but you guys are basically here bitching out the guy who made sure that game wasnt a blow out. with better defence he would be so much better. like come on, half his saves were on odd man rushes, this is football not hockey, we shouldnt have 3 on 1s, get some fucking D.

RPB_Brantford_08
09-01-2008, 05:37 PM
we got edwards in on saturday...hes been pretty steady when hes been in, but the guys in fron...whats left of them will have to help him out a lot

joel
09-01-2008, 06:58 PM
oh we've solved TFCs problems yet again? Good to know! Surpisingly this hasn't been titled 'Open letter to MLSE' yet? Well get on it!

Axeman
09-01-2008, 07:19 PM
you would keep brennan..a total 5 hole on defence, he has let more players by him to score goals then anyone on the team...remember
the lack of coverage by Jimmy B on the gola Montreal scored and
won the canadian championship for the Impact, and where was Jimmy B on the first chivas goal...sleeping like the rest of the defence...so if you are talking a clear out add jimmy b to the list cause he is a weak link back there.

Are you blind? Brennan's got to be one of our most consistent players.
He played very well when used last game as a winger and has been a rock defensively, even can play DC. Great Captain in my book.

Axeman
09-01-2008, 07:21 PM
Why does Guevara take every corner kick and most free kicks? I know he's supposed to be a specialist but getting nothing from those situations is really starting to hurt us.

Terry
09-01-2008, 07:50 PM
what a waste of time for u to type all that..go to the game and support your team

You are one of the greatest people alive, honestly. :thumbsup:

So much sense.

TFC USA
09-01-2008, 07:53 PM
congratulations to u


You're so irritating to the point where RPB Brantford 08 is like an angel.

LucaGol
09-01-2008, 07:53 PM
The classic Maple Leafs approach -- grit over talent.
Love it.

The Leafs have grit?....

I believe what you're looking for is....no heart, passion, grit, or talent...the cocktail of a Toronto professional athlete.

tlear
09-01-2008, 08:14 PM
When keeper is facing number of shots that we are allowing I doubt anyone can look good. Yes Sutton's distribution is very far from ideal but he is good enough in general. Money is way better spent on getting better defenders. Also Barret, yes he messed up couple of clear opportunities, but he also scored 2 beautiful goals for us since he moved. Something needs to be done about cramping up but otherwise he is good.

Guevara + Ruiz. I really want to see them play at BMO field before passing any judgment, give them couple games. Ruiz contract does not have to be renewed so that's good. Guevara is signed for a long terms deal is he not?

Broadview
09-01-2008, 08:17 PM
Amado has a four year deal, the last two being the club option.

LucaGol
09-01-2008, 08:49 PM
Amado has a four year deal, the last two being the club option.

Amado Guevara is fine.....he just needs creative help. Aside from our various other needs on the pitch...I believe above all else (which is really saying a lot)...we need another creative presence that provides even more than Guevara brings.

This player, whoever he may be, can be easily found imo. Central america and Mexico (forget even South America) have proven themselves to be goldmines of undiscovered, cheap, creative players for MLS teams. Players who would be more willing to play in the MLS than South Americans or Europeans.

It's just a matter of finding the correct player and compensating them accordingly.

With this in mind...I think MoJo has 2 main trips that he has to make this offseason.....Africa and Central America. There's no reason why those 2 trips shouldn't yield at least 2 or 3 new exciting and affordable players for our team.

druid
09-01-2008, 10:04 PM
No defense is going to be good with all the changes that have happened over this season. Part of it is the whole FIFA dates/league schedule. Part of it is injuries. A huge part of it is Trader Mo and Carver's inability to pick his best starting 11 and a preferred formation.

-Throw two rookie defenders into that mix and you're going to have real problems.
-Ask a rookie center back to play left back and you're going to have problems.
-Ask two full backs to play wing back and you're going to have problems.
-Switch from a 4-4-2 to a 3-5-2 in the middle of a game and you're going to have problems.

Most of these problems come from our management team and I'd personally be shocked if our squad morale wasn't affected by them.

zeelaw
09-01-2008, 10:40 PM
Actually, those of us with the literacy skills to spell "you" properly can type pretty quickly.
You are a Douche.

It is the internet.

RPB_Brantford_08
09-01-2008, 10:40 PM
Are you blind? Brennan's got to be one of our most consistent players.
He played very well when used last game as a winger and has been a rock defensively, even can play DC. Great Captain in my book.



thats cool you like him...but too many treat him like gold...and i just cant see that...even going back to the win against the Galaxy in LA he was easily beaten for one of the goals...happened again against Montreal
, and last game agaist Chivas...he may be a good winger, so move he there and get him off the defence....no arguing hes a good captain as he is.

RPB_Brantford_08
09-01-2008, 10:42 PM
You're so irritating to the point where RPB Brantford 08 is like an angel.


thanks..i think;)

Shakes McQueen
09-02-2008, 05:14 AM
The Leafs have grit?....

I believe what you're looking for is....no heart, passion, grit, or talent...the cocktail of a Toronto professional athlete.

As opposed to the cocktail of a Toronto professional sports fan... no optimism, no perspective, and no ability to close their mouth. Haha.

- Scott

rocker
09-02-2008, 08:56 AM
another problem with the LA game is that the field there is bigger than BMO... so if you have a weak defense playing in much more space, yer gonna have problems.

TFCREDNWHITE
09-02-2008, 09:18 AM
Good post Jloome...

I agree with you.

Also i would like to add that all this garbage play during the last month and a half i fully blame all of the players!! The players need to step up and take responsibility for this garbage run they have been having.

LucaGol
09-02-2008, 11:00 AM
As opposed to the cocktail of a Toronto professional sports fan... no optimism, no perspective, and no ability to close their mouth. Haha.

- Scott

It's a match made in heaven........or hell rather.

trane
09-02-2008, 11:44 AM
The classic Maple Leafs approach -- grit over talent.
Love it.


I do not think it is a question of grit over talent, but a question of having players that will be profesional and commited enough to bring their top game for the entire season. I have to agree with Jloome, many on the players simply seem not commited to their team, the system or their role.

Broadview
09-02-2008, 02:15 PM
Amado Guevara is fine.....he just needs creative help. Aside from our various other needs on the pitch...I believe above all else (which is really saying a lot)...we need another creative presence that provides even more than Guevara brings.


I still think he was a good signing, even though he's prone to disappearing for stretches. I really can't think of a TFC player this season who hasn't done that.

In terms of bang for the buck, he's not really close to making the league max so Mo did pretty well there. I can't remember exactly how much he's getting, but after the hype and build up to his arrival, I recall being surprised he was only getting two hundred-something grand. A fair return so far IMO.

That said, I miss Ronnie O'Brien.

jloome
09-02-2008, 02:51 PM
I still think he was a good signing, even though he's prone to disappearing for stretches. I really can't think of a TFC player this season who hasn't done that.

In terms of bang for the buck, he's not really close to making the league max so Mo did pretty well there. I can't remember exactly how much he's getting, but after the hype and build up to his arrival, I recall being surprised he was only getting two hundred-something grand. A fair return so far IMO.

That said, I miss Ronnie O'Brien.

Me too. Both Sutton and Guevara are the tough calls of that list, the former because of bouts of brilliance, the latter because I just get this ongoing sense that he and Robbo don't communicate, don't get along; and beyond the fact of him missing so many games, there was the issue of him reporting back late from Honduras (as with Ruiz) which is bullshit; in this day and age, any player who "can't be reached" by his coach doesn't want to be, which is a bad sign. And a guy who clocks another player in the head -- provoked or not -- is thinking about himself, not the team.

Tough call. I think he'll always contribute for as long as we have him, but I sense an implosive ending, ala New York and Chivas.

Beach_Red
09-02-2008, 02:56 PM
... there was the issue of him reporting back late from Honduras (as with Ruiz) which is bullshit; in this day and age, any player who "can't be reached" by his coach doesn't want to be, which is a bad sign.

It's been awhile since I've followed baseball but I remember every spring the amount of Latin American players having "visa" problems and missing most of spring training...

Someday TFC will be an established team and won't have to settle for other teams' castoffs.

Someday....

Richard D
09-02-2008, 03:09 PM
Bottom line is we need to spend some fucking cash. The team is raking the money, we just sold Edu and it seems like the city is taking it in the ass AGAIN by MLSE.

Lets open the wallets and at least have a press release saying you're going to get grass and a DP for 2009.

The fans are pissed!

Sullivan
09-02-2008, 04:09 PM
We require changes to the squad, results & stats support that.

But who do we bring in?

We can release and cut any combination of players but its apparent that Mo is having trouble getting players to play here - turf, $$$, and contract terms.

Can't cut someone unless we've got somebody ready to step in - signed, sealed and delivered!!!!

Personally, I'd like to see Harmse, Marshall, Velez & the Kiwi released in the off-season. They have zero ball mastery skills and terrible touch.
Trade Ricketts, spin him off like O'Brien was.
Hold Wynne casue an EPL contract ($$$) is around the corner.
Let JJ play his natural position once the play-off bubble has burst.
Is Edwards better than Sutton - lets see. And Seitz is being shopped around!

Do something about Ibby, my god he goes down faster than a hooker in a shipyard on pay day. Him, Ruiz and Guervera - gonna be ugly watching these fackers falling all over themselves....

jloome
09-03-2008, 03:46 AM
We require changes to the squad, results & stats support that.

But who do we bring in?

We can release and cut any combination of players but its apparent that Mo is having trouble getting players to play here - turf, $$$, and contract terms.

Can't cut someone unless we've got somebody ready to step in - signed, sealed and delivered!!!!

Personally, I'd like to see Harmse, Marshall, Velez & the Kiwi released in the off-season. They have zero ball mastery skills and terrible touch.
Trade Ricketts, spin him off like O'Brien was.
Hold Wynne casue an EPL contract ($$$) is around the corner.
Let JJ play his natural position once the play-off bubble has burst.
Is Edwards better than Sutton - lets see. And Seitz is being shopped around!

Do something about Ibby, my god he goes down faster than a hooker in a shipyard on pay day. Him, Ruiz and Guervera - gonna be ugly watching these fackers falling all over themselves....

Why on Earth trade Ricketts? And given his ball watching tendences, why let James play defense at all? NCAA calibre doesn't cut it anymore.

Shakes McQueen
09-03-2008, 06:22 AM
Bottom line is we need to spend some fucking cash. The team is raking the money, we just sold Edu and it seems like the city is taking it in the ass AGAIN by MLSE.

Lets open the wallets and at least have a press release saying you're going to get grass and a DP for 2009.

The fans are pissed!

I think Mo was smart enough to realize that our ambitions for this season were slipping away, so there was no point in throwing money at whoever is available. Especially when this club needs more changes than just a DP to be competing for the MLS Cup (I think this week's match proved that).

Mo has gone on record as saying there will be a DP next season, and he has also gone on record as saying he want's to use the Edu cash for grass. Of course, there are a lot of caveats and strings attached to trying to put grass in - such as needing to build a new facility.

The reality is that we don't know who is available to be signed. We probably aren't aware of lots of the names Mo has talked to this season.

- Scott

Cobblers
09-03-2008, 07:56 AM
Sutton is what he is - a great shot-stopper, but a poor decision maker. His poor choices to come for balls in the air when he shouldn't and his distribution problems are because of bad decision making. Experience should teach this but Sutton is past that stage and these issues likely won't get better. However, he has excellent reflexes, closes down one on ones well and is a typical MLS-calibre starting keeper. Edwards, if he sticks around, will likely we our keeper of the future, if not next year...

I think Guevara does more than you give him credit for. He is often picking the ball up in from our defenders deep in our own half and also tracking back making tackles. His english is a moot point in football. He is here for his playmaking and offensive abilities. He is the most naturally talented player we have but needs to produce more. For his salary and ability he definitely stays.

You mentioned one way players and we need to look at the fact that Robbo is a one-way player...he's 100% defensive-minded and doesn't actually break up that many plays (which a defensive midfielder should). He tracks well and distributes well from defending to attacking and is arguably a role-model type leader for our younger players but I still don't think his salary is justified being as high as it is for what he gives us. Also, Robbo's value this season has been in his ability to provide cover for our dreadful defenders - with decent centre backs, I'm not sure his value would be as high...

What we really need is a solid, not flashy, box-to-box midfielder (ala Shalrie Joseph).

James does not have the skills or football sense to ever be an MLS starter in my opinion - I would ship him out while he still has some value. His positioning is terrible, his passing is dreadful, and he doesn't have a sense for the game. And I would get rid of Velez faster than James - he's absolutely dreadful and a big liability as a CB. I can't think of a single attribute that he brings to this team. If we can sign a decent CB for next year we can choose from Wynne, Marshall, Attakora, Dunivant and the new CB. Jimmy B can drop back if we need cover also but I prefer him on the wing...

Barrett is a developing quality player and will be real quality in a year or two. His work rate is the best on the team right now but he needs some serious work on his conditioning. Everyone is going apeshit about him missing two chances and calling his finishing terrible - his finishing has only really been bad against Chivas..he's a keeper for sure.

Ibby needs to not start anymore and spend some time developing. His uselessness will have a negative impact on his development.

Ricketts is a keeper but also needs work on his conditioning - the skill and heart are there but he tires too quickly...

For what it's worth I'd also like to see Rosenlund, Melo and Gala get some experience this season since we've pretty much written it off...

trane
09-03-2008, 09:21 AM
Why on Earth trade Ricketts? And given his ball watching tendences, why let James play defense at all? NCAA calibre doesn't cut it anymore.

You have touched on another point I have been thinking for some time. I have to wonder if the US College system is a good training ground for professional Football players. My sense is that they would be better of in an Academy system. But I must confess that I do not have much insight into the issue.

Roogsy
09-03-2008, 09:28 AM
NCAA produce bench players not stars. Edu was an exception, and even then, he really isn't a star, I think Europe will show that.

For TFC, we should look at draft picks to provide depth. But for starters, we need to look elsewhere.

OneLoveOneEric
09-03-2008, 09:32 AM
One point to make -- if our "gutless" players were more talented, I bet we'd be ok with it. I mean, Robert wasn't that great, so his gutlessness was impossible to see past. But if you had a JP Angel or somebody like that, and they were also douchbags, we'd see past it I bet. One is always willing to put up with more crap if the player is really fanatastic. I'd take a world class footballer/shithead gladly right now!

Beach_Red
09-03-2008, 09:33 AM
You have touched on another point I have been thinking for some time. I have to wonder if the US College system is a good training ground for professional Football players. My sense is that they would be better of in an Academy system. But I must confess that I do not have much insight into the issue.

If soccer is going to compete with the NFL and the NBA then they're going to have to do it with NCAA players. Americans really like to follow their own. At first anyway. Baseball has opened up to the world and basketball is doing the same, but first they had to establish with American players - and Americans love their athletes to pretend to go to school. And maybe not just Americans, somewhere on this board is a great list of NCAA players and many of them are non-American. It's possible American colleges wil be able to lure soccer players the same way they lure track athletes.

Let's hope the NCAA system gets better. And, if the money's there, then there's no reason it won't get a lot better.

If they can turn out the amount of basketball and football players they do, they can turn out soccer players.

Someday, I think, the world be pissed off that they got Americans interested in soccer.

Wooster_TFC
09-03-2008, 09:45 AM
In my opinion the real problem with this team isn't necessarily that they "have no heart" as people are so happy to say around here, I just think that most of them are either playing out of position, or just flat out not good enough.

Here's our depth chart (I'm going to keep sidedness out of it, but for the wingers and fullbacks we should remember that some of them are one sided (a là Brennan), also it will be very simplified - ie not distinguishing between a DM and a CM or a target man and a striker):

Fullbacks: Wynne, Velez, Dunivant, Attakora
CB: Marshall, James
CM: Robinson, Guevara, Rosenlund, Harmse, Melo, Elkinson
Winger: Brennan, Ricketts, Jo. Smith, Ja. Smith, Gala
Striker: Dichio, Ruiz, Barrett, Ibrahim, Gaudet
Keeper: Sutton, Edwards

I put James in CB because it's his "natural" position, although I think he slots in at best to be a fullback in the MLS, and not a starting one at that.

So, at CB we have one aging, borderline MLS starter, and someone playing out of position. I think Mo's real priority in the off-season should be bringing in a quality MLS CB as well as a backup CB. Striker looks okay, assuming Dichio's concussion isn't worse than we think. Midfield might be a little weak in the middle, although I think Rosenlund and Harmse are adequate subs, I think we do need one more box-to-box type that can actually handle the ball.

I also think it's quite clear that with Dunivant out, we have some very large problems at the LB position.

trane
09-03-2008, 09:53 AM
One point to make -- if our "gutless" players were more talented, I bet we'd be ok with it. I mean, Robert wasn't that great, so his gutlessness was impossible to see past. But if you had a JP Angel or somebody like that, and they were also douchbags, we'd see past it I bet. One is always willing to put up with more crap if the player is really fanatastic. I'd take a world class footballer/shithead gladly right now!


I will take a shithead any day if he has the skills and hates losing. I even tolerate diving, if I see it is a result from a burning desire to win. But our guys seem to be OK with lossing, or atleast it does not seem to phase them enough for my taste.

Richard D
09-03-2008, 09:58 AM
There are 10 times better players right now in their teens playing soccer barefoot in the mud in brazil, central america and africa then there are playing in the NCAA.

Mo needs to get his head out of his arse and stop calling his old buddies for favors and send someone on a trip to central and south america with a straw hat, a hawaiian shirt and a bag of peanuts and stay there for 2 weeks and come back with 5 kids that will tear this league apart.

Mo, if you pay my flight, I'll go down there for you.

Sullivan
09-03-2008, 10:38 AM
If soccer is going to compete with the NFL and the NBA then they're going to have to do it with NCAA players. Americans really like to follow their own. At first anyway. Baseball has opened up to the world and basketball is doing the same, but first they had to establish with American players - and Americans love their athletes to pretend to go to school. And maybe not just Americans, somewhere on this board is a great list of NCAA players and many of them are non-American. It's possible American colleges wil be able to lure soccer players the same way they lure track athletes.

Let's hope the NCAA system gets better. And, if the money's there, then there's no reason it won't get a lot better.

If they can turn out the amount of basketball and football players they do, they can turn out soccer players.

Someday, I think, the world be pissed off that they got Americans interested in soccer.

Beach Red & Trane

read Professor's comments, especially a post yesterday
http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=5361

as far as the NCAA goes, he pretty much nailed it

Sullivan
09-03-2008, 10:46 AM
Why on Earth trade Ricketts?

Because he has value and we have so many holes to fill.
Because we don't have to, but he may be be more valuable to us in what we are able to get in return.
But we don't give him away and I'm not giving up on him.
Sometimes parting with a prized asset generates further assets.
Its what Mo can negotiate in return for him. Nobody on the current roster should be deemed untouchable, if its best for the club, do the deal.

PaulinosTFC
09-03-2008, 01:39 PM
thats cool you like him...but too many treat him like gold...and i just cant see that...even going back to the win against the Galaxy in LA he was easily beaten for one of the goals...happened again against Montreal
, and last game agaist Chivas...he may be a good winger, so move he there and get him off the defence....no arguing hes a good captain as he is.

Can't quite remember the other games right now but the goal Chivas scored should not be pinned on Brennan, that was not his man...that was a joint fuck-up between velez and james.

Beach_Red
09-03-2008, 01:45 PM
Beach Red & Trane

read Professor's comments, especially a post yesterday
http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=5361

as far as the NCAA goes, he pretty much nailed it

I see where he gets the name "professor," good stuff.

trane
09-03-2008, 02:18 PM
Yeah, thanks Sullivan, and the professor is always insightfull.

Richard D
09-03-2008, 02:22 PM
I like how the professor can make a fully functional radio out of a pair of coconuts...

Derko
09-03-2008, 02:59 PM
There are 10 times better players right now in their teens playing soccer barefoot in the mud in brazil, central america and africa then there are playing in the NCAA.

Mo needs to get his head out of his arse and stop calling his old buddies for favors and send someone on a trip to central and south america with a straw hat, a hawaiian shirt and a bag of peanuts and stay there for 2 weeks and come back with 5 kids that will tear this league apart.

Mo, if you pay my flight, I'll go down there for you.

Or they will beat it to LA or New York, I don't think many South or Central American kids can see beyond the 49th parallel, but a good point to seek talent elsewhere.

Beach_Red
09-03-2008, 03:19 PM
I like how the professor can make a fully functional radio out of a pair of coconuts...

Sure, but he can't fix a two-foot hole in the boat.....

Beach_Red
09-03-2008, 03:20 PM
Or they will beat it to LA or New York, I don't think many South or Central American kids can see beyond the 49th parallel, but a good point to seek talent elsewhere.

As long as they aren't good enough to make their national team....

jloome
09-03-2008, 04:40 PM
Eric, Robert was full French international when they were the #2 ranked team in the world in the late 90's. He is, far and away, more physically skilled than 99% of the players in this league. In fact, his production in the EPL at Newcastle was substantially more impressive than Angel's at Villa, given that Robert's 34 goals (or so, I'm going by memory) came from the left wing.

So the theory doesn't hold. His legs were shot and he was past it in terms of fighting to get a team with limited potential ahead. If you think he's starting now in the Greek First Division because MLS was too good for him, you gotta be kidding.


One point to make -- if our "gutless" players were more talented, I bet we'd be ok with it. I mean, Robert wasn't that great, so his gutlessness was impossible to see past. But if you had a JP Angel or somebody like that, and they were also douchbags, we'd see past it I bet. One is always willing to put up with more crap if the player is really fanatastic. I'd take a world class footballer/shithead gladly right now!

bhoybobby
09-03-2008, 05:12 PM
good post jloome, I totally agree, we need guys out there who would give anything to win a game, not just brush it off...did you see the devestaion on Ricketts face after we lost the Canada Cup? That's what I want to see out of every player.

RR is a grossly overrated underachieving non performer, taxi for him please.

Richard D
09-03-2008, 06:15 PM
Sure, but he can't fix a two-foot hole in the boat.....

What are you trying to say? That show wasnt believable? lol

Apparently the actors and actresses had orgies all the time on the set after the cameras stopped rolling...

ag futbol
09-03-2008, 10:09 PM
"Intensity", well that's one way to do it.

The reason why we lose, i would not descibe as intensity. I would descibe it as skill. Without naming names, i'd simply saw this team lacks a lot of characteristics that seperate us from the better teams in this league.

Too many athletes, not enough technically sound footballers. It doesn't matter how fast you are, how big and strong you might be, if you don't have a mind for the game or the basic ability to hold the ball and keep possession.

We might be the biggest, fastest team in the league, but we lack too much in the other areas.

I'd take a guy who's lacking a fair amount of speed and size if he can more than make it up in other areas. Because in the heat of the summer, he's going to keep the ball and control the game as opposed to chase it all day and tire out.

McHaggis
09-03-2008, 10:34 PM
Barrett is one of the top goal-scorers in the league. He has only been here for what, four or five games? Cut him some slack. I agree, he doesn't last a full game but that is because he runs like a maniac for the entire first half(moreso than any other player on the team). This has, however, resulted in a couple of goals for TFC.

jloome
09-03-2008, 11:55 PM
Barrett is one of the top goal-scorers in the league. He has only been here for what, four or five games? Cut him some slack. I agree, he doesn't last a full game but that is because he runs like a maniac for the entire first half(moreso than any other player on the team). This has, however, resulted in a couple of goals for TFC.

It might be harsh to call him a bench player, but he has a history of missing sitters that cost games. Given that he probably creates a lot of those himself, it's a bit unfair. But that's what happens when you score the spectacular goals but then forget how to round a keeper.

trane
09-04-2008, 09:45 AM
Barrett us a hard call for me, he seems to be more then a bench player, and his striker rate sugests that he starting striker, but yet I do not feel that he is the answer. For me he is a good second, in the whole striker, with a bigger stiker upfront, but I do not see him as the lone striker upfront.

jloome
09-04-2008, 02:05 PM
Barrett us a hard call for me, he seems to be more then a bench player, and his striker rate sugests that he starting striker, but yet I do not feel that he is the answer. For me he is a good second, in the whole striker, with a bigger stiker upfront, but I do not see him as the lone striker upfront.

He was a good in-the-hole player at Chicago; I recall someone on their boards mentioning that he has as many assists each year as goal, so maybe he'll end out being the number two/provider.

trane
09-04-2008, 02:16 PM
^ I would like to see him in that role. Perhaps this weekend with Dichio?

jloome
09-04-2008, 07:01 PM
^ I would like to see him in that role. Perhaps this weekend with Dichio?

I assume it'll have to be something like, or it's Smith and Ricketts carring the playmaking load, given that we don't have too many other creative players to pick. Rosenlund might surprise, he looked really good against Colorado.

trane
09-04-2008, 07:11 PM
^ If we have Dichio, Barrett, Smith and Ricketts with some contributions from more defensive mids, we shuold be ok on the attack. The back continues to be the concern.