MLS PREM and MLS DIV-1???

[RPB_RED_NATION_RPB]

For this to happen ...here's how i look at it!:p

MLS should Consider Buying the USL.....Its established...and has good support! and the teams are in place!!

They then turn it around and make!

MLS PREM

MLS DIV-1

single tables

And of course Regulation! :)

Ohhhh yea....5 million dollar caps!:hump:

If footy want to be reconized on this side of the pond!! This has to happen!

Can this happen??!:yum:

[T_Mizz]

Absolutely not but it should

[T_Mizz]

I think the main problem stems from the fact that new owners had to pay like 30 mil for a top level franchise and to be relegated wouldn't happen they wouldn't allow it

[Shaughno]

Then TFC and RSL get relegated, both lose their support and fold. Just like any other team that drops from MLS to USL.

Honestly, unless the USL gets some serious upgrades it can't happen. There isn't enough money in that league for it to happen IMO.

[BC101]

Then TFC and RSL get relegated, both lose their support and fold. Just like any other team that drops from MLS to USL.

Honestly, unless the USL gets some serious upgrades it can't happen. There isn't enough money in that league for it to happen IMO.

Word....

[werewolf]

it would never work this early. Certain places would be doomed attendance wise if the team dropped from the first tier. Who would show up in LA if there was no Beckham? (see Chivas and there 800 season tickets).

[Shaughno]

it would never work this early. Certain places would be doomed attendance wise if the team dropped from the first tier. Who would show up in LA if there was no Beckham? (see Chivas and there 800 season tickets).

Perfect example.

[BakaGaijin]

For this to happen ...here's how i look at it!:p

MLS should Consider Buying the USL.....Its established...and has good support! and the teams are in place!!



This is a silly idea. Why would they buy the USL when they could simply announce the creation of lower division, and sell expansion rights for millions of dollars?

[T_Mizz]

Also in England wher it does work people actually support their home team no matter how small the club it will have fans but in america that won't happen

[BC101]

Also in England wher it does work people actually support their home team no matter how small the club it will have fans but in america that won't happen

This BE a big franchise only type of continent...AKA yer right.

[Damien]

Let MLS stablize their roots... give it 10-20 years.... then we'll talk about promotion/relegation.

[Dirk Diggler]

Even in Europe most teams experience a dramatic attendance drop whenever they are relegated to a lower division. I can only imagine how poor the attendance will be if any MLS team gets relegated.

[RPB_RED_NATION_RPB]

Let MLS stablize their roots... give it 10-20 years.... then we'll talk about promotion/relegation.

OR how about just start a single table? :D

[T_Mizz]

Let MLS stablize their roots... give it 10-20 years.... then we'll talk about promotion/relegation.
Problem is that once it's been established for that long they won't change it that's silly, Leagues tend to be big fans of "if it ain't broke don't fix it"
It should've been set up the correct way but now all we can hope for is for soccer to become the most popular sport in North america and then the richest league in the world will be the MLS and it will become like the MLB, NBA, NHL, or NFL

[T_Mizz]

OR how about just start a single table? :D
That's got my full support

[RPB_RED_NATION_RPB]

That's got my full support

and the 5mil cap!:D

[T_Mizz]

and the 5mil cap!:D
Screw that I say 10 mil:D
But seriously 5 Mil is a great step forward, I just hope we can get to a point where there aren't professional athletes that make more than entire MLS Teams which would be prolly at the 40 Mil mark (Ithink Shaq or Amare Stoudemare gets like 35 mil per season)

[Stouffville_RPB]

I wish this could work but it won't.

In North America footy doesn't have the following it needs for this to happen. Plus N.A. fans are a bunch of bandwagon jumpers. Once the team got relagated it would lose the majority of it's following. How many New England Patriots fans were around in 2000? There is no loyalty. In Europe you support 1 team, look at Hull in the EPL that stadium is packed. Those fans have waited forever to play in the EPL, that's something you won't find in N.A. sports and that is the reason it won't happen.

If owners knew that they could still make money if they got relagated there would be a chance. If TFC got relagated you would see BMO with 10,000 empty seats and alot more in other cities.

You can always dream though.

[giambac]

For this to happen ...here's how i look at it!:p

MLS should Consider Buying the USL.....Its established...and has good support! and the teams are in place!!

They then turn it around and make!

MLS PREM

MLS DIV-1

single tables

And of course Regulation! :)

Ohhhh yea....5 million dollar caps!:hump:

If footy want to be reconized on this side of the pond!! This has to happen!

Can this happen??!:yum:

No it won't happen becasue big market teams like Toronto and LA would constantly be in th elower division:eek:

[T_Mizz]

I wish this could work but it won't.

In North America footy doesn't have the following it needs for this to happen. Plus N.A. fans are a bunch of bandwagon jumpers. Once the team got relagated it would lose the majority of it's following. How many New England Patriots fans were around in 2000? There is no loyalty. In Europe you support 1 team, look at Hull in the EPL that stadium is packed. Those fans have waited forever to play in the EPL, that's something you won't find in N.A. sports and that is the reason it won't happen.

If owners knew that they could still make money if they got relagated there would be a chance. If TFC got relagated you would see BMO with 10,000 empty seats and alot more in other cities.

You can always dream though.
I'd be first in line to take your Tickets, bad comparison using TFC We're the only team who does have that kind of support

[T_Mizz]

No it won't happen becasue big market teams like Toronto and LA would constantly be in th elower division:eek:
How?

[giambac]

Becasue the bottom 3 teams from the top division would be regulated to the the lower division.......

[T_Mizz]

why would they constantly be in the bottom 3?

[ilikemusic]

Ive always thought 'The American Premiership' had a much better ring to it than 'Major League Soccer'.

[boban]

why would they constantly be in the bottom 3?
Mismanagement.

[JonO]

I'd be first in line to take your Tickets, bad comparison using TFC We're the only team who does have that kind of support
Would you still be first in line to buy his seats if they are the $1400/ticket club seats?

[T_Mizz]

Mismanagement.
How do you know there would be mismanagement?

[T_Mizz]

Would you still be first in line to buy his seats if they are the $1400/ticket club seats?
The would obviously lower the price and yeah i'd take em

[Chevy]

and the 5mil cap!:D


The current cap is probably a little low, but simply increasing it won't automatically make a better league. You need the teams to reach certain sustainable levels first before you can raise the cap. Look at the New York Cosmos experiement which was an ass-backward approach. Didn't work out too well in the long run.

Improved attendance, tv deals, etc. will generate additional revenue and THEN the cap should increase.

[Parkdale]

No it won't happen becasue big market teams like Toronto and LA would constantly be in th elower division:eek:

yep. Our expansion year would have been our last. :rolleyes:

It would never work because there are only three levels of sports supported in most American cities. 1-pro 2-college 3-highschool. If you're not playing at the top of the professional tier (let's say, NFL) and you're not a school team, you're no better than Arena Football or the XFL. We can't change that.

[flatpicker]

Even in Europe most teams experience a dramatic attendance drop whenever they are relegated to a lower division. I can only imagine how poor the attendance will be if any MLS team gets relegated.


Leeds United have a capacity of 40,204
in 2002 they averaged 39,752 in the Premiership.
in 2005 they averaged 29,207 in the Championship.
in 2007 they averaged 21,613 in the Championship.
- nearly a 19,000 drop in attendance in the few years following their relegation.

although, that doesn't exactly explain the 25,720 attendance they had last year in League One.
Perhaps all the League One fans flocked at the chance to see their little clubs take on Leeds.

anyways... the point is... I agree with Mr. Diggler.
relegation hurts and in North America... it kills!

[rocker]

guys, consider ourselves lucky.. why would we want TFC relegated anyways? I know there's this love for promo/releg in Europe cuz it taps into all that survival of the fittest bullshit, but really, we are lucky we don't have to worry about it here... but the last thing I'd want is to have TFC relegated and have to watch even worse quality soccer.

the only way it works is if the lower league has the same shared revenue as the top league, and there's the same cap across both divisions. that would keep the equality and you get promo/releg based on coaching/scouting performance and not how much $$$$ you spend. the top league would be the only division for qualification to playoffs and big tourneys.

but then at that point, it's like "why bother?" since the parity would be so tight that you'd get promoted and relegated based on very small differences.... not worth it.

[Parkdale]

here's the BIG UPSIDE to relagation....

Instead of playing Columbus, RSL and The Shites - we could play CHARLESTON, MIAMI, MONTREAL VANCOUVER AND PEURTO RICO.


At least our road trips would be to cooler places.

[joel]

Wow this is a totally new idea, it's crazy no one ever thought of this before, or made a thread about it on the board before....wait a minute

[flatpicker]

I have said before that I have no major issues with East and West conferences.
North America is big and divisions make things more manageable.

The MLS should keep East and West but simply have the winner of each at the end of the season play for the Cup.



If you are going to have divisions then make them count for something.

[wzhxvy]

I am not so sure about the salary cap increase guys. Incremental increases wont get us better players but will just pay the ones we have more. I think you need more exception/DP allowance slots first, then you increase the cap after some time. Its not like you can get a much better player for 700K vs. 400K (marginal improvement at best).

[flatpicker]

I am not so sure about the salary cap increase guys. Incremental increases wont get us better players but will just pay the ones we have more. I think you need more exception/DP allowance slots first, then you increase the cap after some time. Its not like you can get a much better player for 700K vs. 400K (marginal improvement at best).


and if the cap only increases at the same pace that the average footballer salary is increasing then we make no gains.

I would like to see 2 DP's per team... and the maximum any team could have through trades should be 3.

[Sonny Cheeba]

Also in England wher it does work people actually support their home team no matter how small the club it will have fans but in america that won't happen


used to be that way. the small clubs are being less supported as next generation football fans hop on bandwagons because of things like the CL and the need to support an EPL team. Or they pick out individual players and follow them.

at least that's my take on things in Britain.

If you look at NFL in the states people for the most part support their City, or whatever city they are closest to.


Big teams will almost always have more support, no matter where you are in the world.

[flatpicker]

as long as their are playoffs, I see no benefit to having a single table.

[TFC USA]

For this to happen ...here's how i look at it!:p

MLS should Consider Buying the USL.....Its established...and has good support! and the teams are in place!!

They then turn it around and make!

MLS PREM

MLS DIV-1

single tables

And of course Regulation! :)

Ohhhh yea....5 million dollar caps!:hump:

If footy want to be reconized on this side of the pond!! This has to happen!

Can this happen??!:yum:


We have regulation in MLS already, but relegation...:D

[Beach_Red]

yep. Our expansion year would have been our last. :rolleyes:

It would never work because there are only three levels of sports supported in most American cities. 1-pro 2-college 3-highschool. If you're not playing at the top of the professional tier (let's say, NFL) and you're not a school team, you're no better than Arena Football or the XFL. We can't change that.

I've wondered about this. In North America we refer to the "Big 4" team sports - NFL, MLB, NBA and soon MLS will overtake the NHL in the 4 (sorry, I like hockey, but the southern experiement didn't work and it's going to go back to being a regional game - more NHL owners will soon do like MLSE and try and get into soccer).

So, do other countries have 4 team sports operating at about the same level and another level of college teams that draw just as many (or more) fans and huge TV ratings?

[Fishnicker]

Hmm....I paid 10 mil. and a stadium to be part of an investors group of 11 guys, and now guys like Saputo, who paid basically nothing for his team, might get to join my awesome, scotch soaked, stipper laden club and bump me to the losers shack? If I'm investing, there's no way that's gonna happen.

[giambac]

Mismanagement.

Bingo!

[giambac]

I've wondered about this. In North America we refer to the "Big 4" team sports - NFL, MLB, NBA and soon MLS will overtake the NHL in the 4 (sorry, I like hockey, but the southern experiement didn't work and it's going to go back to being a regional game - more NHL owners will soon do like MLSE and try and get into soccer).

So, do other countries have 4 team sports operating at about the same level and another level of college teams that draw just as many (or more) fans and huge TV ratings?

Agreed NHl has failed in the Soutern cities.

However MLS has 14 teams
Columbus is failing big time
Several other teams are on the bubble - chivas, dallas, houston and probaly a few more.

i can't belive people mare talking about atier 1 nad tier 2 format. We had -just better hope that the MLS is still around in years.

[Beach_Red]

Agreed NHl has failed in the Soutern cities.

However MLS has 14 teams
Columbus is failing big time
Several other teams are on the bubble - chivas, dallas, houston and probaly a few more.

i can't belive people mare talking about atier 1 nad tier 2 format. We had -just better hope that the MLS is still around in years.

Well, let's say soccer is going to be going strong in ten years then. It's just more globalization - maybe a little good for all the bad it's doing.

And, maybe this should be another thread, but just for discussion, what do you think was the best managed expansion team in North America in, let's say, the last 30 years?

(sorry, I don't know anything about European sports and how expansion works there)

[ginkster88]

30 years is a loooooooooong time. Too long in my opinion.

[ua-kozak_TFC]

Then TFC and RSL get relegated, both lose their support and fold. Just like any other team that drops from MLS to USL.

Honestly, unless the USL gets some serious upgrades it can't happen. There isn't enough money in that league for it to happen IMO.
I don;t think TFC would ever lose the fans... they are here to stay even if they were relegated to USL they would still come. It would be even better since it would put pressure at the management to put a good team on the field and not only raking the profits...

[Beach_Red]

I don;t think TFC would ever lose the fans... they are here to stay even if they were relegated to USL they would still come. It would be even better since it would put pressure at the management to put a good team on the field and not only raking the profits...

Really? You may be right, TFC fans may be different, but no other 'minor' league team can do anything in Toronto. They can't even sell tickets to the Marlies and the AHL is basically the USL.

(the NHL is a league that should go to a relegation system)

I wish it wasn't the case, but Toronto is a trendy city and we'll have to see what happens when the novelty of TFC wears off.

[Beach_Red]

30 years is a loooooooooong time. Too long in my opinion.

Well, I'm old.;)

[MUFC_Niagara]

i'd like to see this happen but i can guarantee the MLS owners would never go for it!

[TheRenter]

:deadhorse:

[brad]

I am not so sure about the salary cap increase guys. Incremental increases wont get us better players but will just pay the ones we have more. I think you need more exception/DP allowance slots first, then you increase the cap after some time. Its not like you can get a much better player for 700K vs. 400K (marginal improvement at best).

It's not about 700k vs 400k for a player or two, it's about having enough cap space to afford 200k-400k players across your starting 11, and possible down to your bench. Replacing guys like Velez and Harmse who will play for cheap with guys you could get in the 200k-400k range would substantially improve the overall teams.

[jmorgs88]

the USL idea is a bad idea because of the lack of support in most cities...but take a look at some teams, like Portland for example, if they were offered a spot in the MLS's second division it would give them the potential of one day becoming a top tier MLS team...a mix of offers to USL teams and new franchises could work....but not in the near future

for now i would just love to see a proper single table league with a league cup as well

[Cashcleaner]

Won't happen in North America. Can't happen in North America. Shouldn't happen in North America.

Now I'm all upons with single table after hearing the arguments, but promotion and relegation is (I believe) far too unworkable with the current state of sports ownership in Canada and the US.

[Shakes McQueen]

- The league is too young to propose a promotion/relegation system.
- People don't have 150 year old roots with the clubs in MLS, the way people do with Premier League/Coca-Cola Championship clubs. Relegated clubs would simply die off, with rare exception. USL1 teams don't do the ticket sales of MLS teams, and even a lot of the MLS teams don't have very good ticket sales.
- Owners that paid tens of millions of dollars to be in MLS, would veto any such idea.

It is going to take many decades, and firm support, to develop North America into a football world power. Until such time, relegation would just destroy MLS' growth.

I'd be content if MLS just became like the other major leagues in North America - have a salary cap to promote equality, and lots of top-flight talent from all over the world.

Of course, they would also have to adhere to the FIFA calendar, so the MLS clubs can participate in the CCL, and so players can participate in the World Cup, Euro, etc.

MLS might be ready for promotion/relegation, around the same time that the USMNT actually becomes a real threat to win the World Cup. When the talent in North America is that good, it may be an indication that the sport has "made it" enough here, to warrant such a step.

- Scott

[Richard D]

Before you can even think of doing this, the USL would first have to be absorbed into the MLS to improve the quality of the players in MLS... There's way too many filler players in both leagues...

[Beach_Red]

- The league is too young to propose a promotion/relegation system.
- People don't have 150 year old roots with the clubs in MLS, the way people do with Premier League/Coca-Cola Championship clubs. Relegated clubs would simply die off, with rare exception.
- Scott

I think you're right, the relegated clubs would die off.

I'm new to soccer and I wonder, how long have European leagues had such huge discrepencies between the top teams and the bottom - even of the Premiere divisions? Those 150 year roots you mention seem like a very important part of supporting a team that really has no chance, but with TV and champions league play and stuff, will that support continue for many more generations?

[Mark in Ottawa]

I asked this "Is relegation possible in North America?" question a while back on Nigel Reed's radio show. The panel at that time felt that given the North American mentality regarding sports ownership (buy it... wait a bit... sell at a profit) and sports fan in general (only the top division matters) that it would not happen for another 20 years at least!

[Stouffville_RPB]

I'd be first in line to take your Tickets, bad comparison using TFC We're the only team who does have that kind of support

I disagree. How many Toronot Lynx games did you go to before TFC got here. If TFC got relagated they would have slightly more support than what the Lynx have. If they couldn't make it back up in 5 years you would see them on par with everyone else.

[Technorgasm]

:deadhorse:

x1000000000000000000000000000000000000

although the comments are interesting.

[profit89]

Before you can even think of doing this, the USL would first have to be absorbed into the MLS to improve the quality of the players in MLS... There's way too many filler players in both leagues...

Agree. But there are some really good players in USL also. Better than some MLS players that's for sure. Pro/Rel would have the effect of making sure only the top players would be in 'premier' league. A lower division provides an instant uncostly way of scouting.

[Beach_Red]

Having only followed North American sports I have no experience with this relegation stuff, but I'm curious.

Does it happen very often that a team is relegated to a lower division, then comes back into the premiere division and climbs to the top? It really seems like from what I've seen the top few teams are always the same and the ones relegated/promoted never get that far up the table.