PDA

View Full Version : Supporter Groups Protest - Possible Death of BMO Field as SSS



Pages : [1] 2

Jack
05-13-2008, 09:05 PM
"We", all the Toronto FC Supporter Groups, believe is time we turn our concerns into actions. The possibility of BMO Field losing its SSS label and being shared with the Argos is a very real possibility and something that we are aware that could become a reality.

So no longer in our minds this is something that we can forget, dismiss and move on, we need to take actions, and not only during one game but actions during the season and offseason. Actions that will ensure we have done all possible to avoid this scenario.

I want to be clear, TFC, BMO Field Staff and more so the Argos are not the enemy, we are protesting the possibilty of our BMO Field will no longer be a SSS in seasons to come. For some this may be an Anti-Argo movement, but we don't want to look it just as that.

During these protests we encourage everyone to join in and participate, but we also ask you to keep the banners civil, clean and classy. You don't achieve much with vulgar language, it shows poorly on you and on what we are trying to achieve.

Enough talk and on with the action...


Protest - Start Point

Protest Date: All-Star Game

Protest:

- Everybody wears black. We are asking all TFC Supporters to wear a black tshirt for this game.
- NO Supporter banners, only "anti-argo" or anti-pigskin football banners.


Why the All-Star Game?

Well, no game will have more media exposure than all-star game, not only that something like this would get coverage over the media not just in Canada but USA and also would put some pressure on the City of Toronto, and MLS in general.

Most people are not willing to do anything during a TFC for many reasons that there is no point on illustrating, so an ALL-STAR game is also the best way since TFC is not directly involved. So is not like we are turning our backs on the team.


This is just the start, we will keep everyone posted of other initiatives that will be happening during the season...one protest, one game, is not enough to get our voices heard and solve our issues...so this is the beginning.

We need you in order to make this happen...so we are asking you for your support!!!!!

Parkdale
05-13-2008, 10:00 PM
I found a place in Parkdale that sells that old 'astroturf' for really cheap.
Imagine an entire roll of it turned into a S.O.SSS banner?

that has a nice ring to it...... Save Our Soccer Specific Stadium (or just Save our Stadium)

flatpicker
05-13-2008, 11:19 PM
astroturf banner?
I like...

hmmm... not a very exciting first post for me...

Jack
05-13-2008, 11:20 PM
Wow... big issue with the name here.

flatpicker
05-13-2008, 11:21 PM
ummm... so I see...
Leave it to me to stir shit up from the get go!

jayeden
05-13-2008, 11:23 PM
i am seeing that on many the whole color coding in brackets..its happening on the mian page under newst members too...

:|

flatpicker
05-13-2008, 11:24 PM
seems fixed now...

flatpicker
05-13-2008, 11:25 PM
now i(of on"__? the fir#t li|\ of thread wa$ in th= Name Here

Jays9293
05-13-2008, 11:30 PM
I thought we were going to lynch Marc or something

Hooligan69
05-13-2008, 11:30 PM
Great idea. Now to find me a ticket for the All-Star Game.

BigLou
05-13-2008, 11:40 PM
Yea I am so in on this. Garber has even stated SS stadiums are the ones that make money over shared stadiums. Also the league is moving towards all SSS as evidenced by RSL and NYRB(are shite) getting their own soccer specific stadiums.

MisterMacphisto
05-13-2008, 11:52 PM
My first post on the new forums!!

I am so wearing all black to the All Star game.

MartinUtd
05-14-2008, 12:33 AM
I wonder if Toronto were to put in an successful bid for the Summer Olympics then would this solve our problem? A leftover Olympic stadium would be the perfect venue for a CFL team given the size of the field they use.

Toronto placed 2nd in the running for what are now going to be the Beijing games this summer so is it not inconceivable that we could land it on our next bid. According to wikipedia:

On July 10 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_10), 2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007) it was revealed that the Canadian Olympic Committee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Olympic_Committee) had begun work on a potential bid for the 2020 or 2024 games for Toronto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto), the capital of Ontario (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario) and largest city in Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada).[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Summer_Olympics#cite_note-38) This would be Toronto's third bid for the summer Olympic games, after unsuccessful bids for the 1996 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Summer_Olympics) and 2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Summer_Olympics) games.

If the proposed TTC expansions actually get off the ground then I can't see any reason why we couldn't use this opportunity as a bargaining chip in discussions. After all, it would fit in with the cities plans for upgraded infrastructure and tourism plans.
It's a long way off but I could see something like this paying dividends if there were a long term outlook involved.

The Kingpin
05-14-2008, 12:48 AM
I'm certain I will be able to help out from a PR perspective on this one. We should also look into 'flash mob' scenarios as well. Well my first post is an 'anti-social' one... What would you expect.

TFC Via Buffalo
05-14-2008, 12:52 AM
I'm in.

Now, are we looking for total black, or are TFC scarves allowed?

GabrielHurl
05-14-2008, 07:56 AM
Steve Goff of the Washington Post has a blog up about the situation

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/soccerinsider/

Azerban
05-14-2008, 08:07 AM
Steve Goff of the Washington Post has a blog up about the situation

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/soccerinsider/

From the comments;


They should throw black streamers.

Aces.

Shaughno
05-14-2008, 08:12 AM
You know I'm in. Fuck this shit, it was built as a SSS and it should fucking stay that way.

On a more serious note, wouldn't this affect our standing with compliance to the MLS's SSS rule?

Red CB Toronto
05-14-2008, 08:25 AM
There is no rule saying what were built as SSS's can not host other sports, Home Depot is the most likely spot of the United Football League team in L.A.

Shaughno
05-14-2008, 08:30 AM
Also, I appreciate the thought for the All Star game... but why wait 2 months to do this? Why not have a giant black banner for the LA game. We could unveil it during the anthems of every game up to and including the All Star game.

I just think that if we don't get started on this protest soon, it may be too late. July is still a ways a way and may be too late by that point IMO.

Wagner
05-14-2008, 08:30 AM
Do we have more evidence than Cohon on the fan590 saying he'd like to see an exhibition game?
do we know for sure staff went to Crapchester to learn how to remove lines?

i'm all for a good protest.
but I want to be sure.

Also, isn't the field too short? and the capital/infrastructure costs are so huge....
like isn't the beer garden their for a reason?

Razor
05-14-2008, 08:33 AM
if i can get my hands on some tickets to the all-star game, i will definitely join in on the protest.

TFC John
05-14-2008, 08:35 AM
I know it was just a FIFA imposed accommodation, but last summer during the U-20 World Cup the building was called the National Soccer Stadium. If (or when) we talk to the press about this we should push the idea that Canada finally has a national stadium solely devoted to football.

We have already made the biggest concession to non-football purists by settling for Field Turf in our shrine. We cannot allow blasphemers to play "their sport" in our house.

GabrielHurl
05-14-2008, 08:36 AM
Also, I appreciate the thought for the All Star game... but why wait 2 months to do this? Why not have a giant black banner for the LA game. We could unveil it during the anthems of every game up to and including the All Star game.

I just think that if we don't get started on this protest soon, it may be too late. July is still a ways a way and may be too late by that point IMO.

I think the ASG will be the culmination of the protest.

TO DEVILS
05-14-2008, 08:37 AM
Also, I appreciate the thought for the All Star game... but why wait 2 months to do this? Why not have a giant black banner for the LA game. We could unveil it during the anthems of every game up to and including the All Star game.

I just think that if we don't get started on this protest soon, it may be too late. July is still a ways a way and may be too late by that point IMO.

You need to build hype around it in order to be effective, a big banner against LA in game only being televised by CBC would do little.

Like any good porn flick you need to build up towards the money shot, and this is what we are doing.

You start now with the banners and such, get the word out that the first big display of disaproval is coming and we get the media on our side on this since their help is crucial.

Then the all-star is the money shot.

Having said that the initiatives won't end there, that is just the start of something big.....one big display....more actions will be planned out and organized through out the season and offseason.

But discussion on what we will be doing in the future will be kept private;), discussing future plans in an open forum will defeat the purpose behind them and deminish the impact that we hope to achieve by them.

Shaughno
05-14-2008, 08:38 AM
I agree and that's pretty much what I'm saying. We need to start it now. Then use the ASG as the hyped up protest.


And you know I love a good porn flick. ;)

Red CB Toronto
05-14-2008, 08:40 AM
If you want to be serious anymore porn references comparing what is being down to filming a XXX film is not the way to go. Act like you are a Bay St. PR type when typing, that is how you have to present yourself in situations like this.

GabrielHurl
05-14-2008, 08:41 AM
If you want to be serious anymore porn references comparing what is being down to filming a XXX film is not the way to go. Act like you are a Bay St. PR type when typing, that is how you have to present yourself in situations like this.

dude *whoosh*

arsenal
05-14-2008, 08:45 AM
You guys going to start a website for the cause?

TO DEVILS
05-14-2008, 08:49 AM
If you want to be serious anymore porn references comparing what is being down to filming a XXX film is not the way to go. Act like you are a Bay St. PR type when typing, that is how you have to present yourself in situations like this.


:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Shaughno
05-14-2008, 08:51 AM
hahaha where's the rotfl smilie??

Nodoubtguy
05-14-2008, 08:52 AM
Sounds like a plan to me....

O_B_ONE
05-14-2008, 09:09 AM
This is a fantastic idea Jack!

koryo
05-14-2008, 09:10 AM
I agree and that's pretty much what I'm saying. We need to start it now. Then use the ASG as the hyped up protest.


And you know I love a good porn flick. ;)

Agreed. We're going to need more than one protest for this to gather steam.

And yes, who doesn't love a good porn flick (or a bad one, for that matter).

Maple Leaf Red
05-14-2008, 09:41 AM
Agreed. We're going to need more than one protest for this to gather steam.

And yes, who doesn't love a good porn flick (or a bad one, for that matter).

As Shaugno said, each day until then is a chance to build momentum for the massive display at the All-Star Game.

The Kingpin
05-14-2008, 09:44 AM
And be sure to use our media contacts... Ben Knight, Matty at Soccer 360... Make this a Canadian 'Soccer' Story.

Don Julio
05-14-2008, 09:50 AM
There is nothing wrong with this as a first step and to draw awareness, however, there is a lot of truth to the fact that this really isn't in the control of MLSE or even the city (they can't discriminate against one franchise). The key to winning this battle is to protest Argo games and events and make them realize that they don't WANT to come to BMO.

UltraFootyKWC
05-14-2008, 09:53 AM
You know I'm in. Fuck this shit, it was built as a SSS and it should fucking stay that way.

On a more serious note, wouldn't this affect our standing with compliance to the MLS's SSS rule?

That's what I thought. Wasn't it a prerequisite for us getting expansion. The rest of the league is moving away from shared stadiums, and we're considering the exact opposite? I'm confused.

I'm definately in for a good protest. We can't let this happen.

Maple Leaf Red
05-14-2008, 10:05 AM
And be sure to use our media contacts... Ben Knight, Matty at Soccer 360... Make this a Canadian 'Soccer' Story.

Getting their support in spreading the word will be huge.

TFC07
05-14-2008, 10:42 AM
I hope rest of STH will be part of the protest. Just imagine 16,000 wearing black t-shirts and chanting anti-football chants.

etro
05-14-2008, 11:15 AM
Will be there in black for sure!

H Bomb
05-14-2008, 11:37 AM
Great idea. Maybe we should do some fundraising to get a large amount of very simple (read cheap) black t-shirts to hand out before the game so that folks who would agree with us but not necessarily come on the boards can join in and make a bigger, better impression.

Nodoubtguy
05-14-2008, 11:58 AM
well our All-Star plans have made it onto MLSRumors.com

http://www.mls-rumors.net/2008/05/report-toronto-supporters-plan-massive.html

H Bomb
05-14-2008, 12:05 PM
^^^ Hahahahaha, you think us switching software will make it? I give it a 2/3 chance.

Ladies Love Julius James
05-14-2008, 12:06 PM
well our All-Star plans have made it onto MLSRumors.com

http://www.mls-rumors.net/2008/05/report-toronto-supporters-plan-massive.html


LOL check the comments section...some tool wrote:

They should get someone to better the right language a little better for press releases. This dont write so well. Other than that, I totally support their cause if they learn english.

denime
05-14-2008, 12:10 PM
Great idea. Maybe we should do some fundraising to get a large amount of very simple (read cheap) black t-shirts to hand out before the game so that folks who would agree with us but not necessarily come on the boards can join in and make a bigger, better impression.

Something like this:

http://i29.tinypic.com/1zog66u.png

What we should do for ASG is leave the stands 10 minutes before half time,can you imagine first all south stands with black T-Shirts and suddenly people start leaving the stands(we can get some extra beer in the meantime).
Turn our back to the pitch all this can be used during the ASG.

Nerepis
05-14-2008, 12:11 PM
Come on you Blaaaaaaaacks!!!

H Bomb
05-14-2008, 12:24 PM
^^ Definitely like that yes, but something FREE for everyone as they walk up to the stadium to make a bigger impact than the South End. Just the south end isn't enough

TorontoBlades
05-14-2008, 12:29 PM
This is a great idea. Prove our point, and at the same time, not projecting a negative vide during a TFC match. great idea!

does this mean i have to watch the Hammers play now :(

TFClifer
05-14-2008, 01:05 PM
In Pamplona (Spain), people used to protest by turning their backs on the event.

O_B_ONE
05-14-2008, 01:10 PM
In Pamplona (Spain), people used to protest by turning their backs on the event.

Wouldn't that mean that you'd be face to ass with the people behind you??? :eek:

TFClifer
05-14-2008, 01:16 PM
Wouldn't that mean that you'd be face to ass with the people behind you??? :eek:

Didn't think of that. Short term sacrifice for long term gain?

Gobi
05-14-2008, 01:32 PM
I'm down for doing whatever it takes.
Not sure about the whole 'all black' thing, though. I don't own any black clothes...









:P

The Kingpin
05-14-2008, 02:07 PM
I'm down for doing whatever it takes.
Not sure about the whole 'all black' thing, though. I don't own any black clothes...









:P



I was about to say... :rolleyes:

TFC Via Buffalo
05-14-2008, 02:08 PM
Wouldn't that mean that you'd be face to ass with the people behind you??? :eek:

I'm in the last row so I'll get to see a nice view of the skyline! I'll make sure to drink a lot of milk so I can fart on the little kid in front of me.

adamdz
05-14-2008, 02:41 PM
Get all your goth friends to come people, we need lots of black.

TO DEVILS
05-14-2008, 02:48 PM
I'm down for doing whatever it takes.
Not sure about the whole 'all black' thing, though. I don't own any black clothes...









:P

I am sure you have a tshirt? That is all you need, underwear can be red.:D

Roogsy
05-14-2008, 04:09 PM
Any chants being worked on for this???

MrHawk
05-14-2008, 04:37 PM
This Is Not Your House?

Primavera
05-14-2008, 07:15 PM
Something like this:

http://i29.tinypic.com/1zog66u.png



very, very cool.

James Oliphant
05-14-2008, 08:04 PM
http://gotorontofc.com/jamey/nss_tee.jpg

TFC Cityboy
05-14-2008, 08:46 PM
great plan, guys and doesn't negatively impact a TFC match. Great audience too.

Leprechaun
05-14-2008, 09:31 PM
wow this protest is getting spread around quickly. they were just talking about it on Fox Soccer Report.

graeme117
05-14-2008, 09:39 PM
it'd also be good if we could hang black fabric along the front of every section in the south end if there isn't going to be a protest banner there

also in for doing one for 117

Daveisonfire
05-14-2008, 10:30 PM
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/9c7e29faf5.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

Just to stay strictly Pro-SSS rather than Anti-Argo

Laurignano
05-14-2008, 10:35 PM
One thing we have to keep in mind is that if the Argo's do come, they would have to invest in the stadium its self...which is including putting up a roof, and adding 5,000 seats...So we will have to see what happends now dont we? But i will be there to protest 100%

Strikers
05-14-2008, 10:53 PM
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/9c7e29faf5.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

Just to stay strictly Pro-SSS rather than Anti-Argo



That looks great.

Draracle
05-15-2008, 04:55 AM
Great idea. I think we should do it for a home game, not the All Star game. The rest of the MLS doesn't need to see our beef with the city when they watch the All Star game. We want to get the attention of the MLSE and the city, not piss off the MLS.

Draracle
05-15-2008, 04:56 AM
One thing we have to keep in mind is that if the Argo's do come, they would have to invest in the stadium its self...which is including putting up a roof, and adding 5,000 seats...So we will have to see what happends now dont we? But i will be there to protest 100%

I'm pretty sure the MLSE will do that soon enough anyway.

denime
05-15-2008, 06:29 AM
Great idea. I think we should do it for a home game, not the All Star game. The rest of the MLS doesn't need to see our beef with the city when they watch the All Star game. We want to get the attention of the MLSE and the city, not piss off the MLS.

You are 100% wrong.
We don't want to hurt our own players with black T-Shirt and we want MLS do get involved since they are asking for SSS.

The Kingpin
05-15-2008, 06:41 AM
I think debating whether we should protest in some form or not is of little or no practical value. We will be protesting as a group and the decion in everyones minds should be 'how can I help?' or 'I will not help in any way'. The debate is over, the majority of the group (And the other groups) have made their voices heard and have decided they do not think this is best for the club. How can you help? That is what you need to be asking yourself if you are a tried and true Toronto FC supporter.

Shaughno
05-15-2008, 07:13 AM
So Kingpin, how can you help? ;)

RedsYNWA
05-15-2008, 07:20 AM
I'm in, but I agree we should give away something free to everyone around us...maybe black streamers

The Kingpin
05-15-2008, 08:04 AM
So Kingpin, how can you help? ;)

I actually offered my assistance with regards to PR... This is something I can do from far away places... If I was in TO... You can only imagine what I would be like. I flabbergasted by how little action beyond a select few has transpired. Not a single meeting, very little bonding over a cause...

I know you were taking the piss... But this sticks in my craw, in the early days we reacted so quickly. Now everyone wants to have their opinion heard instead of taking action. The majority has decided that this is an issue, now jump aboard. This is what it's like to be part of a brotherhood. I promise I will work with Jack (et al) if he needs me...

TO DEVILS
05-15-2008, 08:41 AM
One thing we have to keep in mind is that if the Argo's do come, they would have to invest in the stadium its self...which is including putting up a roof, and adding 5,000 seats...So we will have to see what happends now dont we? But i will be there to protest 100%

Seats yes....roof is not a given. But if you have dreams of real grass, the argos moving in would kill them.

Plus you would see the shadown lines on the pitch ala NYRB and RSL. No amount of extra seats is worth that.

Oldtimer
05-15-2008, 09:13 AM
I'm in, but I agree we should give away something free to everyone around us...maybe black streamers

Will we be using streamers? Or will this be a silent "sit down" type of protest?
I wonder how everyone thinks.

Super
05-15-2008, 09:20 AM
Great idea, Jack. I'm usually not for protesting during a TFC game because I want to focus on supporting our boys on the pitch. But like you said the All-Star game is not a TFC event, so it would be a perfect time to embarrass the city a bit and let them know that this is our house!

Dbl_D
05-15-2008, 10:16 AM
Didn't we spend a freaking billion tax dollars on the skydome to have it designed to play both baseball and cfl... ? No more money on the Argo's... fix the pavement on my street and sidewalks first...

Fergy
05-15-2008, 10:33 AM
Before the abuse starts I am not saying its a good or bad thing - basically because I don't see what harm there is, please feel free to educate me but as I see it so far:

1) they would play when we are away from home and use removable paint on the turf so it would not have any affect on the pitch (like some of the horrible pitches we have played on with the terrible markings for NFL)

2) Doesn't the ground have moveable seats meaning when we play at home the seats will be returned as close to the pitch as they always have been?

3) Lots of teams have multi uses for their grounds - even Old Trafford holds the Rugby League final games and thats on grass where damage is done - cant see any damage to the turf been made, does it affect MLB that the Argos play at the Rogers stadium? it doesnt seem to have any negative implications to me

4) Unfortunately the ground isnt owned my MLSE so we are only tenants - its expected the owners will try make as much money out of the property as possible - why don't MLSE offer to buy the building if they support the need for a sss

If the argument is that we should have a stadium just for football then I agree - but I'd guess that from a financial point of view if MLSE thought that owning a SSS would not lose money then wouldnt they have built it themselves

Ossington Mental Youth
05-15-2008, 10:42 AM
It means moving the supporters section (and the beer garden) back another 20 feet from the field and the potential for football lines. Theres been a billion threads about this. Go and read them in the old forum (google redpatch boys).
ARGOS STAY THE FUCK OUT.

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
05-15-2008, 10:43 AM
sniff..sniff....could be a reporter wanting to get some imput!~ :)

JPMcLean
05-15-2008, 10:46 AM
"Removable Paint" Bullshit. Its bad enough we're on turf but with faint lines from the argos all over it...No Thank You.

THIS IS OUR HOUSE (not the argos house)

JPMcLean
05-15-2008, 10:49 AM
Plus its meant to be the official stadium for Canadian soccer... not for Canadian soccer and a CFL team who will probably collapse once buffalo move here in a few seasons and we get some NFL action.

MUFC_Niagara
05-15-2008, 10:53 AM
Plus its meant to be the official stadium for Canadian soccer... not for Canadian soccer and a CFL team who will probably collapse once buffalo move here in a few seasons and we get some NFL action.

In case you haven't noticed....the CSA wants nothing to do with it. To be honest, as long as they agree to NOT have any trace of throwball lines on the pitch and not permanently move back any seats (they can wheel them back during throwball) I don't see the harm....if this happens i would think it would done to leave the ingetrity of what has been on and off the pitch in tact

leedsutd85
05-15-2008, 10:53 AM
Everything I've read indicates the seats would be made retractable, so would be just as close to the pitch for footy as they are now.

Dave67
05-15-2008, 10:53 AM
BMO field is our National Soccer Stadium. Many of us want to keep it that way. Other than field rental I don't fully understand how the city makes more money here? All the fans showing up at BMO would have otherwise showed up at Rogers centre. Paid the same money to park in city lots, kept the same number of people employed, consumed the same amount of product.

Either I am missing something or a fee for field rental is all that is extra. In this case I'd rather they just rent the field out to the public more. So the politicians who spent $600 million to build skydome and ultimately sold it for $25 million now want to dabble more at BMO. I understand we would not even have BMO without politicians I just don't think they should press their luck.

All the other agruments have been made on the other threads.

TFC Tifoso
05-15-2008, 10:59 AM
Before the abuse starts I am not saying its a good or bad thing - basically because I don't see what harm there is, please feel free to educate me but as I see it so far:

1) they would play when we are away from home and use removable paint on the turf so it would not have any affect on the pitch (like some of the horrible pitches we have played on with the terrible markings for NFL)

2) Doesn't the ground have moveable seats meaning when we play at home the seats will be returned as close to the pitch as they always have been?

3) Lots of teams have multi uses for their grounds - even Old Trafford holds the Rugby League final games and thats on grass where damage is done - cant see any damage to the turf been made, does it affect MLB that the Argos play at the Rogers stadium? it doesnt seem to have any negative implications to me

4) Unfortunately the ground isnt owned my MLSE so we are only tenants - its expected the owners will try make as much money out of the property as possible - why don't MLSE offer to buy the building if they support the need for a sss

If the argument is that we should have a stadium just for football then I agree - but I'd guess that from a financial point of view if MLSE thought that owning a SSS would not lose money then wouldnt they have built it themselves

1) Says who? The people who are for this idea? Yeah, very trusting :rolleyes:

2) No it doesn't.....costly construction DURING OUR SEASON to modify BMO.

3) Yes but both parties involved probably realize how sacred a football ground Old Trafford is and will MAKE SURE it looks in top condition for Man U...North Americans probably won't care....they just want to see dates booked.

4) Good point, but the City of Toronto anf FO, know how we feel about this

So many, if and buts....the Argos had their chance at a joint stadium, and balked twice.....not TFC's fault. Now they can play in the concrete wasteland and like it! THIS IS OUR HOUSE!!!!

graeme117
05-15-2008, 11:01 AM
1) the paint is never removable... anyone who tells you it is, is lying to you

2) this whole movable seat issue is problematic especially when they have to rip out the entire north end. space is an issue, and so is the quality of the fan experience... essentially we have a crappier stadium for soccer, so the argos can play

3) rugby pitches and soccer pitches are roughly the same size, so every time you want to play at OT you don't have to remodel the soccer stadium; CFL fields are a different story. Also the lines have time to be washed out as it is only used occasionally. in a stadium w/ ground-share on parallel seasons this won't happen. In stadiums where it is a ground-share the pitches look horrendous as the lines never wash out and the pitch is ripped up. Its a disgrace to the prem, but can make for interesting matches when the big clubs come to town

your argument about the roger's centre isn't the greatest for a couple reasons. The main one being that it can be augmented for football without wrecking the MLB stadium (the main tenant). In order for BMO to accommodate CFL the entire stadium needs a massive remodel that will negatively effect watching the main tenant (TFC)

4) they should try to buy it, and they are making bags full of money for the current owners

Rudi
05-15-2008, 11:04 AM
Will we be using streamers?
Yes. Black.

ensco
05-15-2008, 11:11 AM
4) they should try to buy it, and they are making bags full of money for the current owners

can't see a sale a la Skydome here

not simple to sever BMO from the CNE grounds

mighty_torontofc_2008
05-15-2008, 11:11 AM
Screw the argos and the CFL...let them go build a place of their own near the downview airport, or build at Varsity with the U of T, they both belong together.

graeme117
05-15-2008, 11:13 AM
can't see a sale a la Skydome here

not simple to sever BMO from the CNE grounds

I know... :(

Mark in Ottawa
05-15-2008, 11:34 AM
Footy fans have been treated like second class citizens for a long time in Canada. Finally we see some progress with the construction of a soccer specific stadium telling us that we and sport we are passionate about count for something and then along comes another group, who have repeatedly shunned us and our sport, wanting to cash in on the good vibes we have created.

No thanks.

Jack
05-15-2008, 11:45 AM
Footy fans have been treated like second class citizens for a long time in Canada. Finally we see some progress with the construction of a soccer specific stadium telling us that we and sport we are passionate about count for something and then along comes another group, who have repeatedly shunned us and our sport, wanting to cash in on the good vibes we have created.

No thanks.

This is a great post.

olegunnar
05-15-2008, 11:49 AM
Somehow my post got deleted when the threads were merged.
The coles notes version of my masterpiece is.

BMO was built and funded to be a soccer specific stadium. Soccer first and foremost.
When you add the CFL it becomes a multi-use facility. Extra tenants and less availability for soccer and ZERO chance at grass
Would the kids leagues that had access to BMO last summer during the week be able to if the Argos were playing games or practicing?
Would Toronto get to host Brazil and Krakow, Villa, Benfica if a vacant BMO date was not available?

rocker
05-15-2008, 12:24 PM
Footy fans have been treated like second class citizens for a long time in Canada. Finally we see some progress with the construction of a soccer specific stadium telling us that we and sport we are passionate about count for something and then along comes another group, who have repeatedly shunned us and our sport, wanting to cash in on the good vibes we have created.

No thanks.

well said.

And bringing in the Argos is simply an act in the name of "efficiency".
We live in a world where everything has to be "efficient" and "multipurpose", particularly things with public money. But i don't think that efficiency necessarily serves the interests of the parties involved.
It's always a compromise. But efficiency is only a useful idea if the facility is not making money or whatever. BMO Field is making a fine return on investment for the parties involved and there's no need to mess with that.

I personally believe BMO could become a soccer central place in the future as they start to promote and add more soccer games to the facility. They don't need CFL to make a more efficient use of the stadium and thus the government subsidy. Just schedule more pro soccer and you fill those dates that Argos would add without having to compromise the stadium.

TFCREDNWHITE
05-15-2008, 02:10 PM
I think the All-Star game is the wrong Venue...

Americans and the MLS have absolutely NO say in the matter at hand!!!

The protest should be done locally, in front of city hall, in front of MLSE offices, In front of Argos offices!! or some home games at BMO Field!!...NOT THE ALL-STAR GAME!! The All-Star game just doesn't add up?? You have to hit the city, MLSE, and the Argos where it hurts and thats here locally!!!

Jack
05-15-2008, 02:25 PM
It will be done. You honestly think that getting the attention of the league doesn't help?

Jack
05-15-2008, 02:27 PM
Somehow my post got deleted when the threads were merged.
The coles notes version of my masterpiece is.

BMO was built and funded to be a soccer specific stadium. Soccer first and foremost.
When you add the CFL it becomes a multi-use facility. Extra tenants and less availability for soccer and ZERO chance at grass
Would the kids leagues that had access to BMO last summer during the week be able to if the Argos were playing games or practicing?
Would Toronto get to host Brazil and Krakow, Villa, Benfica if a vacant BMO date was not available?

Sorry about that dude. :p

Anyway, your points are good ones.

I've read some threads on this issue at BS and an Argos fans forums and the reception is less than encouraging.

TFCREDNWHITE
05-15-2008, 02:32 PM
It will be done. You honestly think that getting the attention of the league doesn't help?

Yes, i do. But I only think it helps very little...

Let's look at the KEY Players in all this:

1) The CFL
2) The Argos
3) The City of Toronto
4) Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment (MLSE)

Minor decision makers:

1) MLS
2) ESPN
3) CBC


IF the Key players want to make a deal, then the minor players can't do shit about it!

I like the fact of wanting to rally everyone together, but why do we have to wait until the ALL-STAR game??? We should be lobbying the KEY players harder and faster LOCALLY! Don't you think??

what are your thoughts?

BTW, i do applaud all that your doing...:)

Jack
05-15-2008, 02:40 PM
This is a big event with big coverage. We will also be lobbying the local players (and already have started this process at our most recent meeting with TFC)

More to come on this as we move forward.

TFCREDNWHITE
05-15-2008, 02:42 PM
This is a big event with big coverage. We will also be lobbying the local players (and already have started this process at our most recent meeting with TFC)

More to come on this as we move forward.

Good news. Lets do more locally!:)

TO DEVILS
05-15-2008, 03:04 PM
Having this protest mentioned on Fox Sports Report is a sign that this is reaching far and wide.

Like Jack said, this is just the beginning of more things that we will do to get our views heard, but to have this venue in our house and not use it would be foolish.

RealG-TFC
05-15-2008, 03:41 PM
OMG! Anti-Pigskin? I'm sorry but that's just dumb. To a neutral observer you'll all just look like dicks. After all Canada invented pigskin.

Jack
05-15-2008, 04:09 PM
It's not anti-pigskin or anti-Argos. And you're not really sorry or you wouldn't have posted it ;)

We ARE anti-"Argos at BMO Field"

RealG-TFC
05-15-2008, 04:13 PM
It's not anti-pigskin or anti-Argos. And you're not really sorry or you wouldn't have posted it ;)

We ARE anti-"Argos at BMO Field"

Now that i'll drink to!

(omg no "cheers" smily! :eek:)

Draracle
05-15-2008, 04:48 PM
I was thinking today that a food and drink boycott might be a good way to get the MLSE over to our sided. If we can hit them in the pocketbook, they might start throwing their weight around. And I am pretty sure they would get their way.

Captain Croatia
05-15-2008, 05:56 PM
Bring a "No Argo's in BMO" or whatever it will say to the home games, and just pull it out either at the beginning, half-time, or end of each game.

True of what people said above, All-Star game is a while away.

alexintoronto
05-15-2008, 06:20 PM
Nobody is stopping anyone from doing things before the All-Star game. Bring banners, flags whatever else you think will help. I agree we shouldn't wait until the All-Star game for everything to happen - that's the culmination of efforts - the BIG showcase.

Are you going to make a "No Argo's in BMO" banner? Sounds good.

CanadaLFC
05-15-2008, 06:58 PM
I think another effective way is to create a group on facebook and also an events page. I know it sounds childish, but you'd be surprised how many people facebook reaches out to. You can let everyone know about the protest, what is expected etc. I will be wearing black !!! Just a question, do we wear our own black shirts or is there going to be some we can buy from somebody ??

Captain Croatia
05-15-2008, 08:22 PM
Nobody is stopping anyone from doing things before the All-Star game. Bring banners, flags whatever else you think will help. I agree we shouldn't wait until the All-Star game for everything to happen - that's the culmination of efforts - the BIG showcase.

Are you going to make a "No Argo's in BMO" banner? Sounds good.

I wish i could make the banner. I dont have enough money for it and im too young to get down to Toronto Lol. Couple years when i get my car and seasons tickets i'll be making the banners!:D

Blixa
05-15-2008, 08:32 PM
We need to make a huge banner that covers the entire south stand that says "No Argos at BMO' (or something to that effect). Furthermore, wen need to make it as clear and loud to MLSE as possible - if Argos are in, we're fucking out. No buts or ifs. WE'RE FUCKING OUT OF BMO.

TFC+Argos4Life
05-15-2008, 10:49 PM
I’m a huge fan of both the Argonauts and TFC. From reading this forum, you’d think the two were mutually exclusive. For pages and pages I’ve read you guys spouting all kinds of hate for the Argos and the CFL. I’m tired of it, so I decided I’d register and let you know what I think. There have been so many untruths put out there by posters in this forum, so it’s time for a little perspective. Behold, the 14 main arguments put out there by you against the Argonauts move to BMO… and why they’re all absolute bollocks.



The Argos moving to BMO would move the supporter section far away from the action!
No. The original concept for BMO included MOVEABLE stands on the south side, so that they could be brought in close for soccer games and pulled back for Canadian football. No one from the city, MLSE, or the Argos have ever said they wanted the seating to be fixed on the south side. There’s no reason to believe that they will be, so don’t go getting all worked up until you hear otherwise.


The Argos moving to BMO would result in permanent football lines on the pitch!
Wrong again. Even at the Rogers Centre, the Argonauts don’t use permanent yard lines. Ever watched a Blue Jays game? Ever see any football lines? Even faint outlines? Of course not. I’m no turf expert, but I don’t see any reason why the same principle couldn’t work at BMO. Again, there’s no reason to hate the Argos until you hear differently.


The CFL doesn’t use the same kind of turf that soccer uses!
Wrong once more. For one of their home matches against the Argonauts, the Alouettes accommodated the extra fans by moving into Olympic stadium. The turf was brand new, and FIFA-SANCTIONED. It was purchased for the U-20 tournament, but went unused until the Alouettes came along. Amazingly, no one in the CFL complained about it (see, we don’t get worked up about meaningless things….). Once again, no reason the same kind couldn’t be used at BMO.


The Argonauts moving in will kill any chance of getting real grass in BMO!
Not true… it’s probably already dead. BMO’s just too valuable as a year-round facility. But still, if MLSE wanted to jump to real grass, what makes you think the Argos would stop them? the Edmonton Eskimos play on real grass. I know it looked terrible during the Galaxy-Whitecaps match, but it hadn’t been re-sodded yet. The grass in Edmonton looks fine all season, even after a ton of use by the football team. It’d look just as good at BMO.


MLS says only Soccer-Specific Stadiums!
Really? How do you explain San Jose, Seattle, LA, Chivas, and Washington? I think the MLS prefers soccer-specific for its expansion teams because the only alternative in major American cities is odd-shaped baseball parks or mammoth football stadiums. Both look weird when there’s only a couple-thousand fans in the seats, which can spell doom for an expansion franchise. Luckily, TFC has survived the rough days of expansion. With movable seats and erasable lines, BMO would look exactly the same on TV and at the game… with the exception that there’s 5-10k more screaming fans in attendance.


MLS will be really angry if the Argonauts move in!
Nope. With the necessary expansion, there could be an additional 10k paying customers in attendance for each game. That’s PAYING customers, and last time I checked, MLS was a revenue-sharing league. They get more money without paying any of the expansion costs. If the TFC game day experience was not adversely affected, it’s all profit from their point of view. Do you really think that MLS will take any kind of action against their darling TFC, the most successful franchise in the league? Give me a break.


This is terrible for Canadian Soccer!
Riiiight… soccer would be huge in Canada right now if the damn CFL would just stop foiling all of our plans…. Here’s a thought, did you ever consider that if this stadium expansion is a success, other Canadian cities would consider building facilities appropriate for professional soccer? You know, facilities that could accommodate more than just 10 football games or just 20-25 soccer games? There are private CFL owners in Calgary, Hamilton, and Ottawa, all of whom are going to be looking for stadium funding sometime soon. If they had an example of a football team and a soccer team working together in the same facility and making big money, they could do great things for professional soccer in this country. This is particularly the case in Ottawa, where one of the owners already owns part of a soccer team in England.


The Argonauts schedule will come into conflict with TFC and Canadian international soccer matches!
Are you kidding me? The Argos have a 10 game schedule, including preseason. They currently share a facility with the Blue Jays, a team that needs the stadium 81 times per year, and there are never any scheduling conflicts. Do TFC and our national teams need more than 81 home dates per year? So relax.


The Argonauts plan on turning the pitch blue and putting a big Argonauts logo in the middle of the field!
Yes, some posters actually believed this was true, to the point where they phoned up their ticket reps demanding an explanation. It doesn’t merit an explanation; just forget you ever heard the rumour before you embarrass yourself.


The CFL isn’t the big leagues, all its best players are going to move on to better leagues!
…………..ahem, and how would you describe MLS? Do you actually consider your words as they leave your mouth? I love both leagues, just enjoy them for what they are and don’t feel you have to measure them against higher leagues.


The Argonauts had a chance to get in on the stadium at Varsity and York and they backed out! They screwed us then, so screw them now!
Close, but no cigar. U of T pulled the plug on the Varsity Stadium location, not the Argonauts. However, the Argos did back out of the York U project, that much is true. Yes… they really screwed you guys over… just think about it, right now you guys could be playing in an Argos-first 20k seater owned and operated by York U out in the middle of nowhere. That’s exactly where you’d be if the Argos hadn’t decided to stay at the Dome. Now the Argos and the city come along, willing to share the costs for expanding a soccer-first facility (one that your team never had to pay for) without hurting the TFC experience. If you consider yourself screwed in this deal, you’ll never be happy.


No one in this city cares about the CFL, let them fold and die!
The Argonauts have the highest per-game attendance in the city (31k) , and easily draw between 300-400k viewers on TV, consistently beating out the NFL among Canadian viewers, and incidentally, draw 5-6 times as many viewers as TFC. I’m not saying that makes one league better than the other, because it doesn’t, but don’t be so quick to wish death on something that’s special to so many people.


This is Our House! It belongs to us!
Not even close, it doesn’t even belong to MLSE. The city owns the stadium and over their 135-year history, the Toronto Argonauts pound-for-pound have done more good for the community in Toronto than any of the franchises owned by MLSE. Even during the rough times, when the team was going broke. They’ve always managed to handle their own affairs and never asked for anything from the city. That means no $500M dollar stadiums for $25M, like the deal Ted Rogers got, and no chance to profit $7M on an operating and naming-rights deal, like MLSE got. If you want to be a real jerk about it, BMO field sits on the site of Exhibiton stadium, home to the Toronto Argonauts from 1959 to 1988… draw any conclusions that you like… but seriously, no one’s talking about taking it away from TFC. It’ll always be TFC’s stadium, first and foremost, the coming of the Argos wouldn’t change that. No reason to get insecure.


F@#% the Argonauts!
No… F@#% you. If you want to argue like a spoiled teenaged girl, prepare to be treated like one.

There you have it. I’m sure by now you’re all angry and set to throw a big temper tantrum. Don’t worry, I’ll read every reply. If they’re civil enough I might even reply. Thanks for reading, hopefully it gave you something to think about. Long Live the Argonauts! Long Live Toronto FC!

Jack
05-15-2008, 11:04 PM
Grammer? LOL

If it was you, you already posted most of this stuff over on BS and I think you make some interesting, if uninformed, points.

You also claim to be a huge supporter of TFC yet fail to understand the concerns of the soccer community, a community which has received short shrift in the sporting community in Canada.

You come to our forum and post this condescending, arrogant post which will obviously cause people to respond angrily and then belittle them for it?

Not exactly the way to win people over to your point of view, my friend.

If you really are a TFC supporter then I would expect you to at least understand the concern of your fellow supporters. If you are just here to belittle TFC supporters under the guise of being a supporter, you won't be welcome here for very long.

TFC+Argos4Life
05-15-2008, 11:16 PM
Yeah, grammer. A couple spelling mistakes slipped through. Is that not allowed?

What's BS?

Which of my points are uninformed? Help me out here.

I'm an Argo fan, believe me I know ALL about getting short-shrift from the sporting media. As for the concerns of the soccer community, I can respect those whose major concern is that the expansion will be designed badly and hurt the TFC game day experience. I hope you believe me when I say that if they miraculously decided to go with fixed seating and permanent lines, I'd be protesting right along with you guys. But no one's ever said that this is going to happen, i don't believe MLSE would ever allow it, and its not even in the best interests of the City or Argos to piss off the TFC fans. All I'm asking is that you don't jump to conclusions and reserve judgement.

...alright, maybe the post was a little arrogant, but you can hardly blame me for pre-empting nasty responses. I've read the previous posts, I don't expect a lot of sympathy.

I don't want to have to belittle anybody, that's why I'm only going to respond to sensible replies. I won't get into a name-calling match with anyone, it's not worth my time.

Thanks for the reply.

Roogsy
05-15-2008, 11:22 PM
Footy fans have been treated like second class citizens for a long time in Canada. Finally we see some progress with the construction of a soccer specific stadium telling us that we and sport we are passionate about count for something and then along comes another group, who have repeatedly shunned us and our sport, wanting to cash in on the good vibes we have created.

No thanks.

FAN-FRIGGIN-TASTIC POST!

QFFT!!!

Roogsy
05-15-2008, 11:26 PM
Yeah, grammer. A couple spelling mistakes slipped through. Is that not allowed?

What's BS?

Which of my points are uninformed? Help me out here.

I'm an Argo fan, believe me I know ALL about getting short-shrift from the sporting media. As for the concerns of the soccer community, I can respect those whose major concern is that the expansion will be designed badly and hurt the TFC game day experience. I hope you believe me when I say that if they miraculously decided to go with fixed seating and permanent lines, I'd be protesting right along with you guys. But no one's ever said that this is going to happen, i don't believe MLSE would ever allow it, and its not even in the best interests of the City or Argos to piss off the TFC fans. All I'm asking is that you don't jump to conclusions and reserve judgement.

...alright, maybe the post was a little arrogant, but you can hardly blame me for pre-empting nasty responses. I've read the previous posts, I don't expect a lot of sympathy.

I don't want to have to belittle anybody, that's why I'm only going to respond to sensible replies. I won't get into a name-calling match with anyone, it's not worth my time.

Thanks for the reply.

I am by no means anti-Argos. In fact...once every couple of years, I take in a game or two.

But I CANNOT accept that a team with the "history" of the Argos has not had this situation sorted out a long time ago. The Jays took 20 years to get their own stadium the Raptors 5 years. 130+ years and the Argos haven't had this situation sorted out??? It says something about the team and maybe the league.

I will by all means agree that the Argos have a place in this city...but at this point...they need to find a place of their own and cement themselves in this city by committing their own money as opposed to riding everyone else's coattails from one place to another. They had their chance to join the Soccer organizations and they dropped the ball. Now they need to pay the price, drop their egos and work things out with UofT for a place of their own.

Get out and stay out of BMO Field.

Jack
05-15-2008, 11:26 PM
Yeah, grammer. A couple spelling mistakes slipped through. Is that not allowed?

What's BS?

Which of my points are uninformed? Help me out here.

I'm an Argo fan, believe me I know ALL about getting short-shrift from the sporting media. As for the concerns of the soccer community, I can respect those whose major concern is that the expansion will be designed badly and hurt the TFC game day experience. I hope you believe me when I say that if they miraculously decided to go with fixed seating and permanent lines, I'd be protesting right along with you guys. But no one's ever said that this is going to happen, i don't believe MLSE would ever allow it, and its not even in the best interests of the City or Argos to piss off the TFC fans. All I'm asking is that you don't jump to conclusions and reserve judgement.

...alright, maybe the post was a little arrogant, but you can hardly blame me for pre-empting nasty responses. I've read the previous posts, I don't expect a lot of sympathy.

I don't want to have to belittle anybody, that's why I'm only going to respond to sensible replies. I won't get into a name-calling match with anyone, it's not worth my time.

Thanks for the reply.

BS=Big Soccer.

Uninformed in the sense that you assume much about what we think and much about our intentions based solely on a few posts in a public forum.

As for the concerns, I am a very reasonable person. It's probably what led me to my current position. But I am worried. I am concerned about the possible changes to the soccer experience. I am concerned that the arrival of the Argos will kill any hope of us getting a grass pitch. (Yes this is still just a hope, but I have reasons to believe this hope is not dead).

Without a grass pitch, we won't see the CMNT play here. We also will continue to have big name players doubt our legitimacy, ultimately affecting TFC's ability to attract the type of player that could put us over the top and bring championships to our city.

I have nothing against the Argos. I am not a big fan, but I'll watch and cheer for them. I just don't want to see them at BMO Field for the reasons stated above.

I am worried. I don't want to accomodate. Things are too good to be true right now. I want them to stay that way.

TFC+Argos4Life
05-15-2008, 11:43 PM
I am by no means anti-Argos. In fact...once every couple of years, I take in a game or two.

But I CANNOT accept that a team with the "history" of the Argos has not had this situation sorted out a long time ago. The Jays took 20 years to get their own stadium the Raptors 5 years. 130+ years and the Argos haven't had this situation sorted out??? It says something about the team and maybe the league.

I will by all means agree that the Argos have a place in this city...but at this point...they need to find a place of their own and cement themselves in this city by committing their own money as opposed to riding everyone else's coattails from one place to another. They had their chance to join the Soccer organizations and they dropped the ball. Now they need to pay the price, drop their egos and work things out with UofT for a place of their own.

Get out and stay out of BMO Field.

The Jays stadium was built almost entirely with public money. Yes the Raptors got a new facility, but arenas by nature are more profitable in this country than stadiums because of the weather, plus they have the "coattails" of the Leafs to ride. I believe that MLSE contributed nothing to the actual construction of BMO Field, only $8M for operating rights and $10M for naming rights... before selling the naming rights for an estimated $25M and coming out with a $7M profit. All three of these franchise rode some substantial "coattails" to get where they are. How would the Argos partially funding a stadium expansion be considered differently than these?

TFC+Argos4Life
05-15-2008, 11:51 PM
BS=Big Soccer.

Uninformed in the sense that you assume much about what we think and much about our intentions based solely on a few posts in a public forum.

As for the concerns, I am a very reasonable person. It's probably what led me to my current position. But I am worried. I am concerned about the possible changes to the soccer experience. I am concerned that the arrival of the Argos will kill any hope of us getting a grass pitch. (Yes this is still just a hope, but I have reasons to believe this hope is not dead).

Without a grass pitch, we won't see the CMNT play here. We also will continue to have big name players doubt our legitimacy, ultimately affecting TFC's ability to attract the type of player that could put us over the top and bring championships to our city.

I have nothing against the Argos. I am not a big fan, but I'll watch and cheer for them. I just don't want to see them at BMO Field for the reasons stated above.

I am worried. I don't want to accomodate. Things are too good to be true right now. I want them to stay that way.

You're right, I assumed that this forum would be a good measure of TFC supporters' opinion on the subject. Is that not the case? If not, I'm thrilled.

Why is it that you think the Argos would be the major stumbling block in getting a grass pitch? Like I said, there is a CFL team that uses real grass, and they're one of the most profitable teams in the league. If anything, I think greed is winning out among MLSE and the city. Someone's making money when that bubble is up.

I, like you, value the game day experience (although I haven't had a chance to attend a game yet). I would only be pissed if the expansion was not soccer friendly, and it sounds like we're in agreement on that one. I don't think you have any reason to be worried. No one has incentive to ruin it. The city wants to keep people happy and coming to the park, as does MLSE, and who knows, the Argos might just be able to introduce themselves favourably to a whole new demographic. That all comes crashing down if they wreck the TFC party, so why would they?

TFCREDNWHITE
05-16-2008, 01:10 AM
You're right, I assumed that this forum would be a good measure of TFC supporters' opinion on the subject. Is that not the case? If not, I'm thrilled.

Why is it that you think the Argos would be the major stumbling block in getting a grass pitch? Like I said, there is a CFL team that uses real grass, and they're one of the most profitable teams in the league. If anything, I think greed is winning out among MLSE and the city. Someone's making money when that bubble is up.

I, like you, value the game day experience (although I haven't had a chance to attend a game yet). I would only be pissed if the expansion was not soccer friendly, and it sounds like we're in agreement on that one. I don't think you have any reason to be worried. No one has incentive to ruin it.

:mad: ARGH! you obviously don't know what the hell your talking about!
seriously, the ARGOS are not welcome! When you've been to a game and when you get the football(real football) blood coursing through your veins then maybe you'll understand!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad:

Roogsy
05-16-2008, 02:03 AM
The Jays stadium was built almost entirely with public money. Yes the Raptors got a new facility, but arenas by nature are more profitable in this country than stadiums because of the weather, plus they have the "coattails" of the Leafs to ride. I believe that MLSE contributed nothing to the actual construction of BMO Field, only $8M for operating rights and $10M for naming rights... before selling the naming rights for an estimated $25M and coming out with a $7M profit. All three of these franchise rode some substantial "coattails" to get where they are. How would the Argos partially funding a stadium expansion be considered differently than these?

You can't blame the teams in other sports for being aware enough to see opportunity when it presented itself. Are you telling me in 130+ years the Argos have existed, they NEVER had their own opportunities come by?

Public money is always invovled in these issues, and the Argos...if they are as big as you say they are (which is possible considering ratings, attendance etc.) they should have some sway in getting things done. Why haven't they do so when all things considered, they have had the longest time to do so?

And now they have to RUIN (and yes, it would RUIN) the soccer experience at BMO because the organization and league has been so inept throughout it's history as to realize they should have firmly established themselves in the largest market of the league a long time ago??? And we should welcome these clowns WHY?

So taking a look at what the other teams have done for themselves...why exactly can't the Argos go out and do the same for themselves? Taking on another Pointyball team like UofT in the process in order to negotiate something with the municipal and provincial governments? Why does it HAVE to be at BMO Field? Something they already passed on when the opportunity presented itself and everyone else moved on without them?

I tell you why...because their history of ineptitude reared it's ugly head again. And now they are kicking themselves for not getting in at the beginning when it probably would have cost them much less.

Well...I hope that IF we are forced to swallow this SHIT that is Argos playing at BMO...I hope that the Argos have to put up so much money for renos and compensation they will become a shell of a team that eventually has to bow out because it will leave them bone dry when the Bills will own them in this city. I don't hate the Argos...but I WILL if they come into our house and dammit...I will do what I can to support the Bills in the city (even though I am a Steelers fan) in order to speed the demise of the Argos. Because if they are going to screw me...I am going to screw them right back.

TFC+Argos4Life
05-16-2008, 03:10 AM
You can't blame the teams in other sports for being aware enough to see opportunity when it presented itself. Are you telling me in 130+ years the Argos have existed, they NEVER had their own opportunities come by?

I'm not sure what you mean by "no opportunities come by". Prior to the 1950s, they played in Varsity stadium. In '58 they got their own in Exhibition Stadium. In the seventies, the Argonauts welcomed the Blue Jays into their stadium (imagine that, "welcomed"). While it was supposedly crappy for baseball, by all accounts it remained a fine facility for football. By the '80s, enormous, god-awful space-aged facilities were all-the-rage. The Argos and Jays lobbied the government, the result of which was the Skydome, where they remain today. Is that enough opportunities for you?


And now they have to RUIN (and yes, it would RUIN) the soccer experience at BMO because the organization and league has been so inept throughout it's history as to realize they should have firmly established themselves in the largest market of the league a long time ago??? And we should welcome these clowns WHY?

Oh yes, the CFL has had its share of ineptitude, no doubt about it. See, the CFL started before the idea of "salary caps" and "revenue sharing", they've basically been a scheming collective of private owners who had to learn as they go. They were run like hobbies by thier rich and powerful owners, not by a boardroom of MBAs. Unlike soccer in North America, they haven't had the benefit of watching leagues rise and fall before finally getting it right. (edit: next sentence added after original post) Things are looking better for the CFL these days than they have in ages, with big TV deal taking effect, strong Commissioner, and strict salary cap. And as to being "firmly established", the Argos have been around for 135 years. TFC's turning 1 and a half in a couple months.


So taking a look at what the other teams have done for themselves...why exactly can't the Argos go out and do the same for themselves? Taking on another Pointyball team like UofT in the process in order to negotiate something with the municipal and provincial governments? Why does it HAVE to be at BMO Field? Something they already passed on when the opportunity presented itself and everyone else moved on without them? I tell you why...because their history of ineptitude reared it's ugly head again. And now they are kicking themselves for not getting in at the beginning when it probably would have cost them much less.

Tried that, U of T decided that they don't care much for their football team and pulled the plug. The Argos didn't pass on BMO Field, they passed on something that was going to be built right near Jane & Finch. It's one of the roughest parts of town, surrounded by gangs, housing projects, and residential zones (ie no bars, noise complaints), and miles away from any kind of major public transit. And you want to talk about ineptitude? You all, MLSE included, should be thanking your lucky stars that that deal fell through!


Well...I hope that IF we are forced to swallow this SHIT that is Argos playing at BMO...I hope that the Argos have to put up so much money for renos and compensation they will become a shell of a team that eventually has to bow out because it will leave them bone dry when the Bills will own them in this city. I don't hate the Argos...but I WILL if they come into our house and dammit...I will do what I can to support the Bills in the city (even though I am a Steelers fan) in order to speed the demise of the Argos.

...really? you sure?

Dozitwin
05-16-2008, 05:04 AM
I found a place in Parkdale that sells that old 'astroturf' for really cheap.
Imagine an entire roll of it turned into a S.O.SSS banner?

that has a nice ring to it...... Save Our Soccer Specific Stadium (or just Save our Stadium)

I'd go with Save our Stadium......sending out an S.O.S...I hope that someone gets my...message in a bottle. Sorry had to slip in the obvious police ref.
:p

egoodwin
05-16-2008, 07:02 AM
http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/picture.php?albumid=42&pictureid=167

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
05-16-2008, 08:04 AM
so was that a fact about TFC agreeing to let the Argos Move in?

Someone said they seen this on FOXSPORTSWORLD LAST NIGHT?

TO DEVILS
05-16-2008, 08:21 AM
so was that a fact about TFC agreeing to let the Argos Move in?

Someone said they seen this on FOXSPORTSWORLD LAST NIGHT?

TFC is running BMO as part as their contract withthe City of Toronto, so publicly they can't be against anybody moving in, now the move would have to be under some circunstances, but still they can't come to the public and veto any move....not just the Argos.

This is not black and white issue, there is a lot of grey.

MisterMacphisto
05-16-2008, 08:32 AM
I, like you, value the game day experience (although I haven't had a chance to attend a game yet).

Uh yeah, for me that pretty much mutes and zones me out to any argument you have. You value the game day experience.... but you haven't been to a game. Sorry, not to be rude, but you must realize how ridiculous that sounds. :) ;)

TFC+Argos4Life
05-16-2008, 09:13 AM
:mad: ARGH! you obviously don't know what the hell your talking about!
seriously, the ARGOS are not welcome! When you've been to a game and when you get the football(real football) blood coursing through your veins then maybe you'll understand!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad:


Uh yeah, for me that pretty much mutes and zones me out to any argument you have. You value the game day experience.... but you haven't been to a game. Sorry, not to be rude, but you must realize how ridiculous that sounds. :) ;)

Yes... I'm sure that the second I step into the stadium, I'll realize the error in each of the 14 arguments I laid out... but for now, seeing as I don't have tickets for tomorrows game, how about you two "wise" and "enlightened" souls just be patient and do your best to explain the errors in my thinking. Judging by the two arguments above, I can't wait to hear what you come up with.

All I meant was it's important to me that the game day experience isn't hurt. It's a big part of the reason TFC has been successful, I want them to continue to be successful. The atmosphere comes through on TV and gets the people watching at home interested in the team. Do you have to be physically at the stadium to realize this? Do I have to be physically in Iraq to have an opinion about the war too?

Barbarez
05-16-2008, 09:18 AM
It's sad when we can't even get all our TFC fans on one side...

Jack
05-16-2008, 09:19 AM
TFC+Argos4Life.

Come down to the tailgate tomorrow. I have an extra ticket in section 110. If you buy me a beer it's yours. Then maybe you'll see why we're worried about losing even 1% of what we've got.

It may come through amazing on TV, but it's NOTHING like being there, trust me.

TO DEVILS
05-16-2008, 09:21 AM
Do I have to be physically in Iraq to have an opinion about the war too?

You can have an opinion on the WAR, but your knowledge of the impact of the same on the mental state or even on the day to day life of soldiers and civilians is ZERO.

So to speak of a game day experience that is a lot more than just what happens on the field during 90 minutes without ever attending a game is ridiculous. You can have an opinion, sure you can, but a very limited and perhaps missinformed opinion, since what you see is not always what you get.

This is the problem with the world today, people read about the berlin wall, Vietnam war on the internet, watch documentaries about D day and suddenly everyone is an expert. Well knowing and having an opinion is fine, but nothing surpasses the knowledge and understanding of actually leaving your home and experience it for yourself....i am sure your opinions would change on a lot of matters.

TFC+Argos4Life
05-16-2008, 09:57 AM
TFC+Argos4Life.

Come down to the tailgate tomorrow. I have an extra ticket in section 110. If you buy me a beer it's yours. Then maybe you'll see why we're worried about losing even 1% of what we've got.

It may come through amazing on TV, but it's NOTHING like being there, trust me.

That's a very unexpected and generous offer, Jack, thanks very much.

If I was currently home in Toronto, I would jump at the chance. Unfortunately, it's just not possible. Thanks again for the offer though, hopefully I'll get a chance to see a game real soon. A free ticket, however, is out of the question, I couldn't possibly. Maybe someday you'll sell one to me and THEN I can get you that beer.


You can have an opinion on the WAR, but your knowledge of the impact of the same on the mental state or even on the day to day life of soldiers and civilians is ZERO.

So to speak of a game day experience that is a lot more than just what happens on the field during 90 minutes without ever attending a game is ridiculous. You can have an opinion, sure you can, but a very limited and perhaps missinformed opinion, since what you see is not always what you get.

This is the problem with the world today, people read about the berlin wall, Vietnam war on the internet, watch documentaries about D day and suddenly everyone is an expert. Well knowing and having an opinion is fine, but nothing surpasses the knowledge and understanding of actually leaving your home and experience it for yourself....i am sure your opinions would change on a lot of matters.

I never said I could tell you what it's like to be at the game, all I'm saying is I can tell its really awesome and it's a main reason for the past and continued success of the team lol. I doubt taking in a match at BMO would change that opinion! I couldn't tell you how much electricity the civilians in Iraq have available, or what the soldiers do to pass the time, but do I really have to go to Iraq to realize it would probably suck being there?

Roogsy
05-16-2008, 10:17 AM
I'm not sure what you mean by "no opportunities come by". Prior to the 1950s, they played in Varsity stadium. In '58 they got their own in Exhibition Stadium. In the seventies, the Argonauts welcomed the Blue Jays into their stadium (imagine that, "welcomed"). While it was supposedly crappy for baseball, by all accounts it remained a fine facility for football. By the '80s, enormous, god-awful space-aged facilities were all-the-rage. The Argos and Jays lobbied the government, the result of which was the Skydome, where they remain today. Is that enough opportunities for you?

Did they OWN the Exhibition Stadium? If not...why didn't they do something about it or immediately thereafter when the Ex was going to be no more? Let alone doing something about it BEFORE they moved on to the Ex grounds. But at the very least this situation should have been addressed when they moved out of the Exhibition grounds.

I just don't get how the Tigercats, Eskimos, Lions etc...can all have their own stadiums and the Argonauts have never bothered to fix this situation, leeching off everyone else during their existance.


Oh yes, the CFL has had its share of ineptitude, no doubt about it. See, the CFL started before the idea of "salary caps" and "revenue sharing", they've basically been a scheming collective of private owners who had to learn as they go. They were run like hobbies by thier rich and powerful owners, not by a boardroom of MBAs. Unlike soccer in North America, they haven't had the benefit of watching leagues rise and fall before finally getting it right. (edit: next sentence added after original post) Things are looking better for the CFL these days than they have in ages, with big TV deal taking effect, strong Commissioner, and strict salary cap. And as to being "firmly established", the Argos have been around for 135 years. TFC's turning 1 and a half in a couple months.

A lesson in putting the cart before the horse. Or in the Argos case, just having the horse and never thinking about the cart. With the SSS, TFC would never have existed. The CFL should have implimented something similar a long time ago. Yeah...TFC does not have a long time on the scene...and yet they really have no concerns about their stadium for a long, long time. Why? Because their existance is a result of good planning from all sides. Don't blame us if the CFL and the Argos don't think more than 2 years ahead.


Tried that, U of T decided that they don't care much for their football team and pulled the plug. The Argos didn't pass on BMO Field, they passed on something that was going to be built right near Jane & Finch. It's one of the roughest parts of town, surrounded by gangs, housing projects, and residential zones (ie no bars, noise complaints), and miles away from any kind of major public transit. And you want to talk about ineptitude? You all, MLSE included, should be thanking your lucky stars that that deal fell through!

Um...that's a pretty inaccurate picture of the York U scenario. York U borders residential areas only on the south side. Everywhere else it's industrial. And the talk was always about extending the Spadina line right up to York region into the University. This is the type of forward thinking that the Argos should have been pushing for. Instead they got offered a sweet deal at Rogers and decided they didn't need to think about their future anymore. Well...then stay at the Skydome!!!

And the thing about UofT...it's just an example. It isn't their only option. See the forest through the trees man.


...really? you sure?

Are YOU sure you are a TFC fan?

Rudi
05-16-2008, 10:59 AM
I just don't get how the Tigercats, Eskimos, Lions etc...can all have their own stadiums and the Argonauts have never bothered to fix this situation, leeching off everyone else during their existance.
No CFL team owns their own facility. Each and every team is a tenant in somebody else's building:

It's unrealistic for a CFL team to own a stadium, hence why they don't . In Winnipeg, the Blue Bombers' owners (the Aspers, owners of CanWet Global) are building their own stadium, which will be the first privately-owned CFL stadium in the history of the league.

Even in that case, I'm almost sure there is some public money involved.

Roogsy
05-16-2008, 11:01 AM
I was wondering about that.

But in their respective stadiums...I am sure they are the main tennants correct? Like TFC is at BMO Field?

koryo
05-16-2008, 11:32 AM
It's sad when we can't even get all our TFC fans on one side...

Then we've been sad for quite some time.

The point of this thread is to actually decide on what/how we're going to build up the momentum of this process? Or just argue back and forth?

Never mind the "don't oppress me... freedom of speech...blah blah blah" bullshit, we need to get organized and quickly.

If you don't agree then fine, it's a free country. But there's more than one argument on here that could have gone to PM some time ago. Initial points were made, and could well have been left alone.

Honestly, the way this thread has been allowed to degenerate into a circular argument is precisely why I get fed up with this group at times.

So what the hell are we actually going to do?

Limestone
05-16-2008, 11:46 AM
put it to a vote!

TFCREDNWHITE
05-16-2008, 01:11 PM
I never said I could tell you what it's like to be at the game, all I'm saying is I can tell its really awesome and it's a main reason for the past and continued success of the team lol. I doubt taking in a match at BMO would change that opinion!

Here's an IDEA! Why can't the Argos just stay at SKYDOME!!!(i refuse to call it the rogers centre!)

I don't get it!?!? What the fuck is the problem with them continuing to play at the SKYDOME!

Seriously WTF!! They have a sweetheart of a deal at the skydome, stay the fuck there!!!:mad:

TFC07
05-16-2008, 01:36 PM
Here's an IDEA! Why can't the Argos just stay at SKYDOME!!!(i refuse to call it the rogers centre!)

I don't get it!?!? What the fuck is the problem with them continuing to play at the SKYDOME!

Seriously WTF!! They have a sweetheart of a deal at the skydome, stay the fuck there!!!:mad:

It might have to do with the Bills moving in Sky Dome in near future. So maybe Ted Rogers giving a notice to the Argos to find a new home.

TFC07
05-16-2008, 01:37 PM
http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/picture.php?albumid=42&pictureid=167

Nice picture. Is that going to be a banner at the game?

TFC+Argos4Life
05-16-2008, 01:43 PM
Did they OWN the Exhibition Stadium? If not...why didn't they do something about it or immediately thereafter when the Ex was going to be no more? Let alone doing something about it BEFORE they moved on to the Ex grounds. But at the very least this situation should have been addressed when they moved out of the Exhibition grounds. I just don't get how the Tigercats, Eskimos, Lions etc...can all have their own stadiums and the Argonauts have never bothered to fix this situation, leeching off everyone else during their existance.

Again, I really don't see where you're going with this. The Argos didn't own Exhibition stadium, just like TFC doesn't own BMO Field. They did do something before their move from exhibiton place, they secured a spot in the Skydome. The Ti-cats, Eskimos, and Lions don't own their stadiums either (incidently, the new stadium proposed in Winnipeg would still be owned by the city, in an arrangement very similar to BMO). Those teams don't share their stadiums for the simple reason that there AREN'T any other potential tennants. The only other professional teams these places have are hockey teams (if they're lucky) and a hockey team and football team can't share a facility, unlike football and soccer :)


A lesson in putting the cart before the horse. Or in the Argos case, just having the horse and never thinking about the cart. With the SSS, TFC would never have existed. The CFL should have implimented something similar a long time ago. Yeah...TFC does not have a long time on the scene...and yet they really have no concerns about their stadium for a long, long time. Why? Because their existance is a result of good planning from all sides. Don't blame us if the CFL and the Argos don't think more than 2 years ahead.

To my knowledge, BMO Field is the first example of a stadium owned publicly but operated privately in Canada. All other previous stadiums have been built, owned, and operated publically (yep, Skydome too, until it was sold at fire sale prices). As we all know, the government has proven to be just plain awful at running stadiums, so the new arrangements are working out for all parties involved. Hopefully, the arrangement at BMO will be the blueprint for stadium development in this country from now on. Don't pat yourself on the back too much on the planning surrounding TFC. Its success is the result of a perfect storm of events, not all of which were planned by MLSE.


Um...that's a pretty inaccurate picture of the York U scenario. York U borders residential areas only on the south side. Everywhere else it's industrial. And the talk was always about extending the Spadina line right up to York region into the University. This is the type of forward thinking that the Argos should have been pushing for. Instead they got offered a sweet deal at Rogers and decided they didn't need to think about their future anymore. Well...then stay at the Skydome!!!

Is York not exceptionally close to Jane & Finch? Besides small campus bars, is York not far away from any kind of entertainment district? Not only do you want the Argos to build their own stadium, but you want them to build a SUBWAY line as well? People have been talking about a subway line to York for ages, there's been no movement. You know perfectly well that sports franchises don't have the luxury of enduring rough conditions for decades waiting for the mass improvement of public transit. What kind of condition do you think TFC would be in right now if the York U project had gone ahead?


And the thing about UofT...it's just an example. It isn't their only option. See the forest through the trees man. Are YOU sure you are a TFC fan?

I believe the saying is "See the forest FOR the trees", and I don't see how it works in this context. I've never said anything bad about TFC, you on the other hand have repeatedly wished for the death of the CFL and the Argos. I think that qualifies as hating them, don't you?

TFCREDNWHITE
05-16-2008, 01:53 PM
Yes, I would love two things to happen, you might call it wishful thinking, but oh well.

1) I wish the CFL would go bankrupt and close its doors!

2) I wish Major League baseball would also go bankrupt and fold!

I guess their both long shots but oh well...

I think your CFL experience is perfectly fine at SKYDOME!! Stay there!

TO DEVILS
05-16-2008, 02:25 PM
Argos4Life, why are you pro-Argos moving to BMO? Or are you?
I haven't grasped your take on it.

TFC07
05-16-2008, 02:36 PM
I am not sure if this has been posted or not here, but according to the Canadian board, Max Bretos said last night on his weekly Fox Soccer Report bit that the Argos using BMO was a done deal, with expansion and lovely painted football lines on the pitch and then went on to lambaste MLSE for such an abomination.

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15441

GaryJamboTFC
05-16-2008, 02:49 PM
I'm an Argo fan, believe me I know ALL about getting short-shrift from the sporting media. As for the concerns of the soccer community, I can respect those whose major concern is that the expansion will be designed badly and hurt the TFC game day experience. I hope you believe me when I say that if they miraculously decided to go with fixed seating and permanent lines, I'd be protesting right along with you guys. But no one's ever said that this is going to happen, i don't believe MLSE would ever allow it, and its not even in the best interests of the City or Argos to piss off the TFC fans. All I'm asking is that you don't jump to conclusions and reserve judgement.


Nice sentiment, but by then it would be far too late.

No Argos at BMO. That's our position. We don't want to soften it, or negotiate it or pretend in some way that the experience we are having now wouldn't be much crappier if we were forced to accommodate the CFL at BMO. I don't hate the Argos (I occasionally go to games), I wish them well, in some other venue, that isn't ours.

No judgement will be reserved. Conclusions have been taken. We need to act right now to stop what everyone agrees is a very special situation from being wrecked by opportunists sticking their oar in.

NO ARGOS AT BMO. Take your (paid?) shilling for people looking to wreck the fun that we have invested in, someplace else.

The Kingpin
05-16-2008, 03:16 PM
Then we've been sad for quite some time.

The point of this thread is to actually decide on what/how we're going to build up the momentum of this process? Or just argue back and forth?

Never mind the "don't oppress me... freedom of speech...blah blah blah" bullshit, we need to get organized and quickly.

If you don't agree then fine, it's a free country. But there's more than one argument on here that could have gone to PM some time ago. Initial points were made, and could well have been left alone.

Honestly, the way this thread has been allowed to degenerate into a circular argument is precisely why I get fed up with this group at times.

So what the hell are we actually going to do?

I offered my PR services to help move this forward and it was ignored. I am willing to work with a team to start disseminating RPB rhetoric, but I will not work alone as I'm separated form the group and do not have my finger on the pulse. Koryo, I suggest you head to the private section and help organise a proper movement. PM me if you want to help me with some initial elements... Cheers!

Jack
05-16-2008, 03:48 PM
Pat, no one is ignoring you buddy. :violin:
As you may have noticed, this has been a hectic week with the board migration and the tifo-making nights.

You're not very patient.:smilewinkgrin:

Here, have one of these :chillpill:

The Kingpin
05-16-2008, 04:25 PM
Pat, no one is ignoring you buddy. :violin:
As you may have noticed, this has been a hectic week with the board migration and the tifo-making nights.

You're not very patient.:smilewinkgrin:

Here, have one of these :chillpill:

This is VERY true... When I'm ready to strike, I'm ready...

Boschmeister
05-16-2008, 04:30 PM
Guys I have been on the road for a few days, can someone fill me in on exactly what changes will take place at the stadium if these CFL Lardos move into our house, other than the obvious stuff like lines, netting, and posts.

Captain Croatia
05-16-2008, 08:14 PM
http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/picture.php?albumid=42&pictureid=167

If that is the banner, that would be the best fucking banner i've seen!:D

111_DrummerBoy
05-16-2008, 08:42 PM
Um... I am having a bit of problem with the math here. Or this really could be a glimmer of hope. The field size of BMO is 115 yds long. That's not counting the stands. With the stands it starts pretty well at Princes Gate and runs to about 30 yards before the food building.

A CFL field is 150 yards. That's a fuckload more yards than 115. That's not counting stands, etc. I'm no civil engineer, but I don't think a 150 yard field is going to fit in the same space as BMO without some major remodeling.

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/picture.php?albumid=43&pictureid=179

That line is just the field length of a CFL field. With stands on either end, unless they are going to level the food building or move Princes Gates Blvd it just ain't gonna fit.

James Oliphant
05-16-2008, 08:44 PM
^
Hence the estimated $30 million price tag.

TFC+Argos4Life
05-16-2008, 09:31 PM
No judgement will be reserved. Conclusions have been taken. We need to act right now to stop what everyone agrees is a very special situation from being wrecked by opportunists sticking their oar in.

NO ARGOS AT BMO. Take your (paid?) shilling for people looking to wreck the fun that we have invested in, someplace else.

Conclusions before evidence… I think you meant to write “No judgement will be USED”.

Paid? Ha, yeah I wish! In fact, all the time wasted on this forum is taking me away from my exam study time, so you could say it’s costing me.


Argos4Life, why are you pro-Argos moving to BMO? Or are you? I haven't grasped your take on it.

I’m glad you asked. I’m PRO Argos in BMO provided that the following conditions are met:

1) No permanent gridiron lines on the field, movable seating on the north and/or south sides of the field.
2) That the investment is financially justifiable to both the Argonauts and TFC.

I don’t really care if it’s justifiable for the city. If they didn’t spend the money on the stadium they’d just spend it somewhere else that I’ll never see. Might as well enjoy it.

Here’s why:

1) It’ll enhance the Argonauts game day experience.

The Skydome was a mistake, for all parties involved. For football in particular, the lower bowl’s very gradual slope makes for difficult viewing. The upper levels are too far from the action. Even with 44k screaming fans in attendance, the place seems empty and quiet given the dome’s cavernous nature. Finally, there is the very real possibility of an NFL team in Toronto. Although I don’t believe it would kill the Argos, I’m not so naÔve as to think that average attendance won't take a hit. Any number of fans between 20-30k would look a helluva lot better in BMO than in the dome, and they’d have a lot more fun. A good product at the game and on TV will encourage people to keep coming to the game, keep the sponsors involved, and keep alive this old battered, but never beaten truly Canadian cultural institution.

2) TFC gets a soccer-friendly expansion sooner rather than later.

Who knows how long MLSE will sit on their hands waiting to expand a facility that doesn’t even belong to them? Mark my words, they wouldn’t get any government money to do it, not when politicians were already pissed off that the south stands were not designed to be movable. With skyrocketing material costs, the price tag on the expansion will only increase with time. Who knows if they’d EVER get around to expanding it? While I’d hate to line MLSE’s pockets more than they already are, their gain is MLS’s gain, and a better quality league yields a better quality TFC. Tickets should be more accessible than they are right now.

3) It will be good for Canadian football AND Canadian soccer.

Hockey is the darling of the sports media here in Canada. In the rest of the country, Canadian football plays a distant second fiddle, and here in Toronto its even a few more notches down the post. Soccer has been ignored in this country until recently, it’s only now starting to take off in Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal. For both sports, the facilities across this country are either old and decrepit or nonexistent. Stadiums cost millions of dollars, more than can be justified by 10 football games or year, or for a soccer team given the risk of folding. Cities like Victoria, Edmonton, Calgary, Saskatoon, Regina, Winnipeg, London, Hamilton, Ottawa, Quebec City, Moncton, and Halifax all need to see an example of a professional facility that allows them to enjoy both sports at a cost that is justifiable by the amount of use. If this project turns out to be a success, you could see similar proposals crop up in other major Canadian cities. Think about it, professional soccer in soccer-appropriate stadiums all over Canada. Maybe not at the MLS level, but maybe USL (or perhaps CSL if some kind of first division is formed). We could have both sports playing in style all over this country.

4) Soccer and football are already cooperating.

Victoria is getting a brand new PDL soccer team, Victoria Highlanders FC. For their first season, they’re going to have a brand new stadium. They wouldn’t have gotten the public funding for that stadium if Victoria’s football team, the CJFL’s Victoria Rebels, had not become a partner in the venture. Both teams now have a facility to showcase as they build their fan bases. The Vancouver Whitecaps have been dicked around regarding their stadium for what, 5 years now? It’s to the point where the available expansion slots in MLS are getting filled up. They need a bid, and they need one fast. It appears they’ll be submitting one. While they wait for a resolution regarding their proposed stadium, they’ll be hosted in BC Place, home of the BC Lions CFL team. I don’t know if there’s a clear link here, but the partnership is coming right alongside a plan to give BC Place a retractable roof.

That’s why I’m writing on this forum. I want you guys to put your suspicion aside for a minute and look at the big picture. No one wants to destroy the atmosphere at BMO Field, no one even has an incentive to do so. I can respect those of you who still worry about the atmosphere post-expansion, and it’s a good idea to keep an eye on the decision makers and make sure they realize you care. But I can’t respect those who wish my Argos would die simply for spite, sour grapes, or jealousy.

Jack
05-16-2008, 10:15 PM
You work for the Argos, don't you? Or the CFL?

Either that or your spending your exam study time studying about football vs. soccer in Canada.

You sure seem to have all the answers...very slick.

TFC+Argos4Life
05-16-2008, 11:35 PM
You work for the Argos, don't you? Or the CFL?

Either that or your spending your exam study time studying about football vs. soccer in Canada.

You sure seem to have all the answers...very slick.

Hahaha nope, no formal ties to the CFL or Argonauts, just a fan. I'm an economist so I like to follow the front-office dealings of both leagues as well as what happens on the field. I thought about doing some academic work on stadium development but a particular topic hasn't appealed to me yet. Mostly I pay attention as a hobby. Message boards are a great source of news and ideas, and function well as a sounding board.

egoodwin
05-16-2008, 11:45 PM
Nice picture. Is that going to be a banner at the game?


Just came up with it today... had to work this afternoon

Maybe it will be a two stick when I have time

potentially May 31 pending on whether this bullshit continues and if i have enough time

egoodwin
05-16-2008, 11:48 PM
Hahaha nope, no formal ties to the CFL or Argonauts, just a fan. I'm an economist so I like to follow the front-office dealings of both leagues as well as what happens on the field. I thought about doing some academic work on stadium development but a particular topic hasn't appealed to me yet. Mostly I pay attention as a hobby. Message boards are a great source of news and ideas, and function well as a sounding board.
are you Kenny in disguise?

Also, since MLSE isn't doing anything to quench it, why not protest at a Marlies game if they make the Calder Cup Final?

GaryJamboTFC
05-17-2008, 02:05 AM
Hahaha nope, no formal ties to the CFL or Argonauts, just a fan. I'm an economist so I like to follow the front-office dealings of both leagues as well as what happens on the field. I thought about doing some academic work on stadium development but a particular topic hasn't appealed to me yet. Mostly I pay attention as a hobby. Message boards are a great source of news and ideas, and function well as a sounding board.

Dude, we don't need you. All the things that we want from the TFC experience will come in time. We're selling this sucker out, we're buying immense quantities of game day beer, and they've had to reinvent merchandise distribution just to even begin to satisfy the hunger for merch.

All the Argos can do is ride our coattails and screw this up for us. WE DON'T NEED YOU. We certainly don't want you. Go have a lovely gridiron experience someplace else. TFC is going great guns, and all the things we want from it will come in good time. We're a year and a half in and loving it. Go hide from the Bufonto Bills someplace else. We're not your mommy.

TO DEVILS
05-17-2008, 07:49 AM
1) No permanent gridiron lines on the field, movable seating on the north and/or south sides of the field.

They will be visible, show me one stadium where they are not in NA, that uses turf. Just look at RSL and NYRB. So your first point will not be met.

2) That the investment is financially justifiable to both the Argonauts and TFC.

The Argos would have to spend around 40 million, TFC won't be spending a dime. 40 Million to modify BMO will mean increased ticket prices to Argo fans.....i am sure they will love that.

3) Itíll enhance the Argonauts game day experience.

PLaying in a field that is surrounded by red seats when you are a blue team will be amazing to see. Plus if you were as you claim you are a TFC supporter, the TFC game day experience would be as important for you as the Argos, so the possibility of one being ruined over the other show your true colors.

4) TFC gets a soccer-friendly expansion sooner rather than later.

If the Argos move in a lot of people will not renew or have any interest in going to BMO to watch soccer, so the expansion may do little for TFC since they might not need those seats afterall.

5) It will be good for Canadian football AND Canadian soccer.

I am not sure how having a CFL team in Canada's soccer stadium is good for Canadian soccer. We have for many years wanted a stadium to call ours, sharing it with another sport is not only bad for Canadian soccer as it would be a step back on the progress of soccer in this country.

6) Soccer and football are already cooperating.

Of course they are....out of necessity.....TFC doesn't have the necessity to cooperate, neither do the fans want to, so why should we?

masrawy
05-17-2008, 08:44 AM
You work for the Argos, don't you? Or the CFL?

Either that or your spending your exam study time studying about football vs. soccer in Canada.

You sure seem to have all the answers...very slick.

Either that or he's working for the city or the club.

Regardless, I'd have IP banned his annoying ass a long time ago. We can go back and forth about the pros and cons of having your shit team move in, but at the end of the day, you will never understand why we're doing this. If you don't get this sick feeling at the bottom of your stomach knowing that there's a risk your stadium will be shared by a CFL team, you don't understand why we're doing this.

denime
05-17-2008, 08:51 AM
Either that or he's working for the city or the club.

Regardless, I'd have IP banned his annoying ass a long time ago. We can go back and forth about the pros and cons of having your shit team move in, but at the end of the day, you will never understand why we're doing this. If you don't get this sick feeling at the bottom of your stomach knowing that there's a risk your stadium will be shared by a CFL team, you don't understand why we're doing this.
So true,just by thinking about it I can :puke:

TFC+Argos4Life
05-17-2008, 03:37 PM
1) No permanent gridiron lines on the field, movable seating on the north and/or south sides of the field.

They will be visible, show me one stadium where they are not in NA, that uses turf. Just look at RSL and NYRB. So your first point will not be met.

2) That the investment is financially justifiable to both the Argonauts and TFC.

The Argos would have to spend around 40 million, TFC won't be spending a dime. 40 Million to modify BMO will mean increased ticket prices to Argo fans.....i am sure they will love that.

3) Itíll enhance the Argonauts game day experience.

PLaying in a field that is surrounded by red seats when you are a blue team will be amazing to see. Plus if you were as you claim you are a TFC supporter, the TFC game day experience would be as important for you as the Argos, so the possibility of one being ruined over the other show your true colors.

4) TFC gets a soccer-friendly expansion sooner rather than later.

If the Argos move in a lot of people will not renew or have any interest in going to BMO to watch soccer, so the expansion may do little for TFC since they might not need those seats afterall.

5) It will be good for Canadian football AND Canadian soccer.

I am not sure how having a CFL team in Canada's soccer stadium is good for Canadian soccer. We have for many years wanted a stadium to call ours, sharing it with another sport is not only bad for Canadian soccer as it would be a step back on the progress of soccer in this country.

6) Soccer and football are already cooperating.

Of course they are....out of necessity.....TFC doesn't have the necessity to cooperate, neither do the fans want to, so why should we?

1) How about Skydome? The lines are painted on for Argos game and removed for Jays games. Itís also likely going to be the arrangement at BC Place with the Whitecaps moving in. RSL and RBNY play in strictly football stadiums. The lines are permanent in those stadiums. Happy now?

2) You have no idea what the distribution of funding would be. Let the city, Argos, and MLSE work out an arrangement.

3) Since the TFC game day experience wouldnít be hurt at all, thereís no reason not to enhance the Argos experience with an accommodation. Iím sure the Argos would prefer blue or gray seats, but I think on the whole the fans will have a much better time at BMO.

4) You really think thatís the way its gonna go? This dealís gonna happen, a bunch of you are going to yell and screamÖ and then youíll all be back the very next game. You guys love the team, youíre not going to abandon them over this. Its called a non-credible threat, an MLSE knows it just as well as I do. And for the emotional few that actually do decide to cancel their seasons tickets in the supporters section (I would be surprised if there were more than 25) there are thousands of people on the waiting to grab your seats. With the improved access to tickets, thousands more will be able to attend the games.

5) I was talking more about the rest of the country where football stadiums are old and soccer stadiums are nonexistent. Itís hard to justify a professional football facility due to the low number of games per season, and professional soccer is a pretty risky venture. If these other cities could build a facility that accommodates 30+ soccer and football events per year, thatís a much better story to approach the taxpayers with. Yes, Toronto has a stadium already, but the rest of Canada has not been so lucky.

6) So it was a NECESSITY for the BC Lions to allow the Whitecaps into BC Place to help their MLS bid? And it was a NECESSITY for the Argos to pay for a money-losing York U stadium in order to prop up MLSEís soccer bid? When soccerís in trouble, you guys seem to be pretty quick to put your hand out to everyone else, but youíre not big on reciprocating, eh?

Hahahah masrawy, I donít work for the city or club, I work for a university. And for the two of you with the tummy aches, I think youíll need some better material than that before you convince anyone you have any kind of argument in your favour.

TO DEVILS
05-17-2008, 09:34 PM
1) How about Skydome? The lines are painted on for Argos game and removed for Jays games. Itís also likely going to be the arrangement at BC Place with the Whitecaps moving in. RSL and RBNY play in strictly football stadiums. The lines are permanent in those stadiums. Happy now?

2) You have no idea what the distribution of funding would be. Let the city, Argos, and MLSE work out an arrangement.

3) Since the TFC game day experience wouldnít be hurt at all, thereís no reason not to enhance the Argos experience with an accommodation. Iím sure the Argos would prefer blue or gray seats, but I think on the whole the fans will have a much better time at BMO.

4) You really think thatís the way its gonna go? This dealís gonna happen, a bunch of you are going to yell and screamÖ and then youíll all be back the very next game. You guys love the team, youíre not going to abandon them over this. Its called a non-credible threat, an MLSE knows it just as well as I do. And for the emotional few that actually do decide to cancel their seasons tickets in the supporters section (I would be surprised if there were more than 25) there are thousands of people on the waiting to grab your seats. With the improved access to tickets, thousands more will be able to attend the games.

5) I was talking more about the rest of the country where football stadiums are old and soccer stadiums are nonexistent. Itís hard to justify a professional football facility due to the low number of games per season, and professional soccer is a pretty risky venture. If these other cities could build a facility that accommodates 30+ soccer and football events per year, thatís a much better story to approach the taxpayers with. Yes, Toronto has a stadium already, but the rest of Canada has not been so lucky.

6) So it was a NECESSITY for the BC Lions to allow the Whitecaps into BC Place to help their MLS bid? And it was a NECESSITY for the Argos to pay for a money-losing York U stadium in order to prop up MLSEís soccer bid? When soccerís in trouble, you guys seem to be pretty quick to put your hand out to everyone else, but youíre not big on reciprocating, eh?

Hahahah masrawy, I donít work for the city or club, I work for a university. And for the two of you with the tummy aches, I think youíll need some better material than that before you convince anyone you have any kind of argument in your favour.

1) Not the same turf son....they have different ones.

2) You are assuming what i know....don't assume, it makes an ass out of u and me.

3) The TFC would be impacted....why you keep saying it wouldn't. Saying it doesn't make it true.

4) If the Argos move in you can have my seats, so you can experience a TFC game live in person.

5) We do have stadium and its packed for every game, so what necessity does the stadium have to add more tenants to justify its existence?

6) You don't know the details and who approached who, so don't comment on what you don't know.

You talk talk and the more you do the least interesting you are...

masrawy
05-17-2008, 11:01 PM
1)
Hahahah masrawy, I donít work for the city or club, I work for a university. And for the two of you with the tummy aches, I think youíll need some better material than that before you convince anyone you have any kind of argument in your favour.

I don't need material when I'm talking to fellow TFC supporters, something that you're clearly not. Don't need to waste more time on you, I can smell the PR bullshit on your breath from a mile away.

TFC4Life? Ducktales, bitch.

denime
05-18-2008, 08:13 AM
TFC+Argos4Life
please read this and let us know what do you think as Argo fan



http://theyorkies.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=1

Fort York Redcoat
05-18-2008, 09:52 AM
You work for a university? Not the University that failed to woo the Argos to share a stadium by chance? The Argos had an incredible opportunity to grow Canadian football by making a partnership with a University and build a stadium that would mirror the success stories around the league like Calgary and Montreal. They declined and settled for the Rogers centre because it was cheaper. That's what fans love to hear. Pocketbook vs atmosphere.
Your points are good points from a financial point of view but it seems you're complicating a very easy question:

Does any team and their fans want to share a stadium with another?

If we can do something to influence this parasitic move by the Argos we will.

I'm not sure where you're coming from, really. I attend Argos games myself and longed for a specific stadium for them. If you can't see the difference from a Roger centre football game and one at Montreals Molson stadium I can't really speak to your credit as a knowledgable fan.

james
05-19-2008, 03:00 PM
Argos Positves:

-put money into the stadium
- Argos expand and inprove the stadium by adding a roof and making the Capacity 25,000- 30,000 seats

Negatives:

-Argos may ruin the atmosphere

-If the Argos play at BMO that means they will always have turf. They couldnt play on real grass because Argos would cut the field up pretty bad for TFC games.

- BMO is sapose to be Canada's National stadium....are National Mens team have said they dont like playing on the turf and wont play big inportant games at BMO field because they want to play on real grass. If Argos move in this means we will always have turf and never get to see are country play inportant games in Toronto.


The not so sure:

- if Argos play at BMO would they beable to completely get the CFL lines off the field for TFC games?

- Would the south stand have to be moved back? would it be possible to put the South Stand on a movable track so seats can move back and forward for Argos/TFC games?

My final thought:

The only 2 positive things that could come out of Argos moving into BMO field is the fact that they would expand the stadium. But if you think about it why would we need the Argos to expand the stadium. Are you guys forgetting we are owned by MLSE! They also own the Leafs, Raptors, Marlies and some real estate property. There has been rumours that MLSE is also shopping around in England looking to purchase a multi-million dollar Soccer team. Toronto FC can expand the stadium to 25,000 -30,000 seats easily with out help from the Argos. MLSE is loaded with money. With all the other negatives why would we want the Argos to play at BMO............ARGOS STAY OUT!

The Kingpin
05-19-2008, 04:16 PM
So when is the next meeting to organise the effort...? Is someone waiting for Jack et al to take care of this? To be frankly honest all I see is a lot of complaining and very little effort. Jack needs your help people, look in the mirror to see how much you really care...

J .
05-20-2008, 06:30 AM
Conclusions before evidenceÖ I think you meant to write ďNo judgement will be USEDĒ.

Paid? Ha, yeah I wish! In fact, all the time wasted on this forum is taking me away from my exam study time, so you could say itís costing me.



Iím glad you asked. Iím PRO Argos in BMO provided that the following conditions are met:

1) No permanent gridiron lines on the field, movable seating on the north and/or south sides of the field.
2) That the investment is financially justifiable to both the Argonauts and TFC.

I donít really care if itís justifiable for the city. If they didnít spend the money on the stadium theyíd just spend it somewhere else that Iíll never see. Might as well enjoy it.

Hereís why:

1) Itíll enhance the Argonauts game day experience.

The Skydome was a mistake, for all parties involved. For football in particular, the lower bowlís very gradual slope makes for difficult viewing. The upper levels are too far from the action. Even with 44k screaming fans in attendance, the place seems empty and quiet given the domeís cavernous nature. Finally, there is the very real possibility of an NFL team in Toronto. Although I donít believe it would kill the Argos, Iím not so naÔve as to think that average attendance won't take a hit. Any number of fans between 20-30k would look a helluva lot better in BMO than in the dome, and theyíd have a lot more fun. A good product at the game and on TV will encourage people to keep coming to the game, keep the sponsors involved, and keep alive this old battered, but never beaten truly Canadian cultural institution.

2) TFC gets a soccer-friendly expansion sooner rather than later.

Who knows how long MLSE will sit on their hands waiting to expand a facility that doesnít even belong to them? Mark my words, they wouldnít get any government money to do it, not when politicians were already pissed off that the south stands were not designed to be movable. With skyrocketing material costs, the price tag on the expansion will only increase with time. Who knows if theyíd EVER get around to expanding it? While Iíd hate to line MLSEís pockets more than they already are, their gain is MLSís gain, and a better quality league yields a better quality TFC. Tickets should be more accessible than they are right now.

3) It will be good for Canadian football AND Canadian soccer.

Hockey is the darling of the sports media here in Canada. In the rest of the country, Canadian football plays a distant second fiddle, and here in Toronto its even a few more notches down the post. Soccer has been ignored in this country until recently, itís only now starting to take off in Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal. For both sports, the facilities across this country are either old and decrepit or nonexistent. Stadiums cost millions of dollars, more than can be justified by 10 football games or year, or for a soccer team given the risk of folding. Cities like Victoria, Edmonton, Calgary, Saskatoon, Regina, Winnipeg, London, Hamilton, Ottawa, Quebec City, Moncton, and Halifax all need to see an example of a professional facility that allows them to enjoy both sports at a cost that is justifiable by the amount of use. If this project turns out to be a success, you could see similar proposals crop up in other major Canadian cities. Think about it, professional soccer in soccer-appropriate stadiums all over Canada. Maybe not at the MLS level, but maybe USL (or perhaps CSL if some kind of first division is formed). We could have both sports playing in style all over this country.

4) Soccer and football are already cooperating.

Victoria is getting a brand new PDL soccer team, Victoria Highlanders FC. For their first season, theyíre going to have a brand new stadium. They wouldnít have gotten the public funding for that stadium if Victoriaís football team, the CJFLís Victoria Rebels, had not become a partner in the venture. Both teams now have a facility to showcase as they build their fan bases. The Vancouver Whitecaps have been dicked around regarding their stadium for what, 5 years now? Itís to the point where the available expansion slots in MLS are getting filled up. They need a bid, and they need one fast. It appears theyíll be submitting one. While they wait for a resolution regarding their proposed stadium, theyíll be hosted in BC Place, home of the BC Lions CFL team. I donít know if thereís a clear link here, but the partnership is coming right alongside a plan to give BC Place a retractable roof.

Thatís why Iím writing on this forum. I want you guys to put your suspicion aside for a minute and look at the big picture. No one wants to destroy the atmosphere at BMO Field, no one even has an incentive to do so. I can respect those of you who still worry about the atmosphere post-expansion, and itís a good idea to keep an eye on the decision makers and make sure they realize you care. But I canít respect those who wish my Argos would die simply for spite, sour grapes, or jealousy.


1.) We do not care about the Argos experience.
2.) We do not need more seats at BMO
3.) It is not good for Canadian soccer
4.) Who gives a fuck about BC?

Youre a part time supporter, we do not need another 10,000 seats so you can sit on your hands.

NATIONAL SOCCER STADIUM

:mad:

Barbarez
05-20-2008, 06:47 AM
Article by Scot on this issue and other things on the Ultras board

http://www.ultras114.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=21&Itemid=34

Mikey
05-20-2008, 06:52 AM
The weak spot is the councillors.

First sign of using public money for the Argos to get in, we need to mobilise BIG time and start burying the councillors under letters and emails demanding they stop wasting public funds on this, call their competence into question and start a viral video / poster campaign to get them out of office.

If it comes to making a fight out of it, let's not piss about, let's go straight for the soft spot.

TFCREDNWHITE
05-20-2008, 09:34 AM
TFC4LIFE + TheBOATshits!

1) go fuck yourself!
2) Nobody gives a shit about the Argos..
3) Nobody gives a fuck about the CFL..
4) Nobody gives a fuck about BC!
5) Revert back to #1

Do you have Morals?? and/or Values ??

The Argo's are to STAY THE FUCK OUT of BMO Field!

Thats it, PERIOD! its non negotiable!!

nascarguy
05-20-2008, 09:41 AM
as a tfc season ticket hold we sure get to be the 1st to buy tickets to the games that are played at bmo field so we can thow streamer at the player or make the place look like shit on tv

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
05-20-2008, 01:03 PM
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/ea181f866c.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

Halifax.T.F.C.fan
05-20-2008, 07:54 PM
FUCK the Argo's and the NFL

Blizzard
05-20-2008, 11:10 PM
1) Not the same turf son....they have different ones.

Actually, it is the same turf.

The Argos bought a surface and used it for all of one season.

That was back in 2004. Here's an article from that time: http://www.canoe.ca/Argos/News/2004/06/21/508595.html

The Jays were still using a very horrible Astroturf carpet at that time.

One year later, the Jays brought in FieldTurf and the Argos were invited to use the same surface. It greatly simplified the field conversion.

You can see faint traces of the lines at times but they do a very good job of washing them off.

If you look at this photo, you can just make out some of the football lines particularly the east sideline to the right of the photograph.

http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/al/rogersmainf.jpg

Toronto Ruffrider
05-21-2008, 12:32 AM
http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/al/rogersmainf.jpg

Wow, that photo doesn't exactly do much to convince me about the merits of sharing a playing surface with the Argos. Aside from the faint gridiron lines, the seams from the Fieldturf form a lovely chessboard pattern. Knight to Bishop 2...

Blizzard
05-21-2008, 01:07 AM
Wow, that photo doesn't exactly do much to convince me about the merits of sharing a playing surface with the Argos. Aside from the faint gridiron lines, the seams from the Fieldturf form a lovely chessboard pattern. Knight to Bishop 2...

Ya, that's the problem of the pallet system. Fortunately we've got nice big long rolls of the stuff at BMO so we're not subject to that visual issue.

Even if the Argos move to BMO, it will still be rolls not pallets so that particular problem will not be our problem.

The pallets of FieldTurf at BC Place are even worse than Skydome.

james
05-21-2008, 03:06 PM
to the TFC+Argos for life comment when he said sharring the stadium would be good for soccer and Football.

IT IS NOT GOOD FOR SOCCER......the reason i think this is because it is sapose to be a national stadium. However are mens national team have said they do not like playing on fake grass and will not play inportant games at BMO field. THis is bad for us fans in Toronto. It means we will never see inportant national games played in Toronto if the Argos move here. The hope for us soccer fans is in a few years BMO will replace the fake grass for real grass. Its like the Argos saying they want to play all there playoff games on real grass so there gonna play them in Montreal or somethin. How would Argos fans feel about that??????

It also means the stadium will be used less for Socccer. Means less time for developing players, TFC, National team and just amature players using the stadium.

All_the_way_TFC
05-21-2008, 03:24 PM
Hi, this is actually TFC+Argos4Life. I would have replied earlier, but the account doesn't work anymore. I have no idea why, but I suspect it's no accident. I can tell when i'm not wanted so don't worry, it's the last you'll hear from me. I'm just replying to people who asked me questions or directed comments at me.


1) Not the same turf son....they have different ones.

2) You are assuming what i know....don't assume, it makes an ass out of u and me.

3) The TFC would be impacted....why you keep saying it wouldn't. Saying it doesn't make it true.

4) If the Argos move in you can have my seats, so you can experience a TFC game live in person.

5) We do have stadium and its packed for every game, so what necessity does the stadium have to add more tenants to justify its existence?

6) You don't know the details and who approached who, so don't comment on what you don't know.

You talk talk and the more you do the least interesting you are...


1) The Alouettes use turf sanctioned for the FIFA-U20 tournament, it seems to be good enough for the CFL. Iím not sure whether or not the lines painted on it were permanent. Until I hear differently from some kind of turf expert, Iím going to assume that for the type of turf acceptable to both teams, there exists somewhere on Godís green earth a can of paint that would wash off between uses. If such a can of paint truly doesnít exist, there are other options like removable sections of turf. Whatever makes financial sense and eliminates gridiron lines for soccer games.

2) I think Iím pretty safe in assuming you donít have intimate knowledge of the proposed distribution of funding, if such a proposition really exists. If not, then by all means, share.

3) Insisting that it WILL be affected doesnít make it true either. Not one of you has even attempted to explain to me how the TFC experience would be negatively affected IF the stands were movable and the lines were erasable (except for the tummy ache argument). Please, SOMEBODY make the attempt!

4) Deal.

5) Weíve chewed over this point twice now, I donít feel like repeating it.

6) I canít see why the BC Lions would beg the Whitecaps to share a stadium. While the circumstances are a little more murky surrounding the York U project, the fact is the CFL is friendly to soccer when it comes to sharing venues while some of you guys can be extremely jealous and hateful over the same subject.

All_the_way_TFC
05-21-2008, 03:25 PM
TFC+Argos4Life
please read this and let us know what do you think as Argo fan



http://theyorkies.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=1

I think this piece is very well written and insightful, but isnít really dealing with what weíve been discussing in this thread.

Size and Cost of Expansion, Expansion Location
This is a question for architects, builders, and engineers. I havenít the faintest idea whether the expansion can actually be accomplished, and if so, what the price tag would be. What matters to me is that if it can be done at a price reasonable to all parties, while preserving the TFC game day experience, than the accommodation should happen. Baseless objections by certain jealous TFC supporters should not be a barrier.

Movable Stands
Important considerations, and I donít think the accommodation should take place if the stands are not movable. Again, this is a job for the architects. I donít see why the concession areas couldnít be set on either side of the stands instead of directly in them, but then again, Iím no expert in construction.

Argos Lease at the Rogers Centre
Again good questions. The Argos accountants are running the numbers right now. Should it be financially unjustifiable, depending on the deal with the city and mlse, Iím sure the Argos would abandon/resist any attempt at moving into BMO.

Whoís gonna pay?
No one knows how the funding would be sliced up. Despite the authors assertions, the city has lots of money to divide up in its budget, and I doubt an expenditure even around the $20M mark would cause enough consternation among a significant number of voters to induce them to change their votes. Again, Iím no expert, but this again is a question for the city. There IS a benefit to city, since the city gets a share of profits from BMO regular season games, unlike the Rogers Centre. The Argonautsí financial situation is much better today than at the time of the York U proposal, and their owners do have deep pockets despite popular belief. Again, this is a question for Argonauts accountants. Itís exactly because MLSE does not like spending money that they might be open to a deal. BMO is sold out, and expansion would bring in more yearly revenue. Without the Argos, MLSE would have to go it alone (the city is not very friendly to MLSE due to the fixed southside stands). Given the chance to get a good chunk paid for by someone else, I think theyíd be VERY interested in paying a fraction of the cost. Furthermore, donít forget that the operating contract does not last forever. Theyíll have to renegotiate a new one at some point, and failure to cooperate with the Argos and city now could hurt them down the road. Once more, a consideration for MLSE.

Turf
A big issue. If even faint lines are there during TFC games, I would not support the accommodation. This is again a question for the experts. I think there must be SOME kind of paint and turf combination that would be able to erase the lines completely, but if not, options like two pitches, this so called ďzipper systemĒ or even a real grass pitch (a la Commonwealth Stadium for the Eskimos and MNT) are other options. Whatever arrangement is acceptable to both leaguesí players is fine with me. The Rona dig was a little unnecessary, definitely not a major consideration in the sense that it is not sacrosanct for the Argos.

Stadium Extras, Construction
All considerations that are better discussed among engineers, and many details that can be accommodated in a contract.

Jack
05-21-2008, 03:26 PM
TFC+Argos4Life, there's nothing wrong with your account. I've checked it myself. If you have a problem with your account, PM an admin. It is against forum rules to create multiple user accounts.

TFC+Argos4Life
05-21-2008, 03:36 PM
TFC+Argos4Life, there's nothing wrong with your account. I've checked it myself. If you have a problem with your account, PM an admin. It is against forum rules to create multiple user accounts.

Oh wow, ok it works now. Thanks Jack! Sorry about the other account, I couldn't even access my account to PM anybody.

Jack
05-21-2008, 03:39 PM
There have been some weird issues with the board lately. I've been in contact with our server admins and I'm also checking with vBulletin support.

TFC+Argos4Life
05-21-2008, 03:58 PM
to the TFC+Argos for life comment when he said sharring the stadium would be good for soccer and Football.

IT IS NOT GOOD FOR SOCCER......the reason i think this is because it is sapose to be a national stadium. However are mens national team have said they do not like playing on fake grass and will not play inportant games at BMO field. THis is bad for us fans in Toronto. It means we will never see inportant national games played in Toronto if the Argos move here. The hope for us soccer fans is in a few years BMO will replace the fake grass for real grass. Its like the Argos saying they want to play all there playoff games on real grass so there gonna play them in Montreal or somethin. How would Argos fans feel about that??????

It also means the stadium will be used less for Socccer. Means less time for developing players, TFC, National team and just amature players using the stadium.

Thanks for the reply.

I understand that it is the National Soccer Stadium, I'm proud to have it in Toronto. I don't understand why another tenant, movable stands, and erasable paint would make it any less the National Soccer Stadium. I realize that some of you get some kind of emotional boost from knowing there's only one tenant in TFC, but from a practical standpoint I see no difference. lol I'll probably catch hell for that one!

I've also repeatedly heard of the fans' desire for a real grass surface. Many of you have stated that the Argos presence would mean the death of that dream, but I really don't see the logic. More than anything, i think the city and MLSE like the revenue that the year-round use is generating. Furthermore, there's no reason why a CFL team can't play on FIFA-approved grass. The Edmonton Eskimos have played on grass at Commonwealth since they moved in, since they share it with the Men's National Team. The lines seem to come off just fine, and it's not all torn up by the end of the football season. If MLSE or the city wanted to make the move to real grass, why would the Argos stand in their way? I haven't heard CFL players or fans ever complain about the grass or turf they play on, I don't anticipate any objections.

The Argonauts play 10 home games a year. BMO is currently being utilized nowhere near maximum capacity. It could easily accomodate ten more games. I don't even think they'd need it for practices, they practice in mississauga. Still plenty of days for development, TFC, national teams, and amateur teams.

NateDoGG
05-21-2008, 06:03 PM
argos had their chance when the place was being built, i say eff them. that will be the biggest bullshit in the world if argos Now get another chance at sharing the place with us.. EFF THEM

james
05-22-2008, 02:12 PM
Thanks for the reply.

I understand that it is the National Soccer Stadium, I'm proud to have it in Toronto. I don't understand why another tenant, movable stands, and erasable paint would make it any less the National Soccer Stadium. I realize that some of you get some kind of emotional boost from knowing there's only one tenant in TFC, but from a practical standpoint I see no difference. lol I'll probably catch hell for that one!

I've also repeatedly heard of the fans' desire for a real grass surface. Many of you have stated that the Argos presence would mean the death of that dream, but I really don't see the logic. More than anything, i think the city and MLSE like the revenue that the year-round use is generating. Furthermore, there's no reason why a CFL team can't play on FIFA-approved grass. The Edmonton Eskimos have played on grass at Commonwealth since they moved in, since they share it with the Men's National Team. The lines seem to come off just fine, and it's not all torn up by the end of the football season. If MLSE or the city wanted to make the move to real grass, why would the Argos stand in their way? I haven't heard CFL players or fans ever complain about the grass or turf they play on, I don't anticipate any objections.

The Argonauts play 10 home games a year. BMO is currently being utilized nowhere near maximum capacity. It could easily accomodate ten more games. I don't even think they'd need it for practices, they practice in mississauga. Still plenty of days for development, TFC, national teams, and amateur teams.


the reason the stadium in Edmonton was able to share it with the Eskimos was because the national team would play like 3 games a year there. These games were also often played when the CFL season wasnt going on. So it was easy to get the lines off and the field wasnt wrecked. But if you have Argos and TFC using the field every week the grass would get pretty torn up and they would have to get rid of the CFL gridlines much quicker.

ExiledRed
05-22-2008, 02:51 PM
TFC draw sports entertainment dollars away from the Argos.

This is a strategic 'spanner in the works' or a veiled response to that fact. Make no mistake, there is a reason the Argos werent interested before......what changed?

Toronto Ruffrider
05-22-2008, 04:12 PM
the reason the stadium in Edmonton was able to share it with the Eskimos was because the national team would play like 3 games a year there. These games were also often played when the CFL season wasnt going on. So it was easy to get the lines off and the field wasnt wrecked. But if you have Argos and TFC using the field every week the grass would get pretty torn up and they would have to get rid of the CFL gridlines much quicker.

Even with only limited national team action in Edmonton, the pitch at Commonwealth is far from perfect. Disregarding the pitch used for the Whitecaps/Galaxy friendly, which was beaten up from the previous CFL season, has anyone ever heard anything positive about the Commonwealth pitch? I certainly haven't, yet I've heard many glowing revues about the pitch at Swangard.

TFC+Argos4Life
05-22-2008, 05:02 PM
the reason the stadium in Edmonton was able to share it with the Eskimos was because the national team would play like 3 games a year there. These games were also often played when the CFL season wasnt going on. So it was easy to get the lines off and the field wasnt wrecked. But if you have Argos and TFC using the field every week the grass would get pretty torn up and they would have to get rid of the CFL gridlines much quicker.


Even with only limited national team action in Edmonton, the pitch at Commonwealth is far from perfect. Disregarding the pitch used for the Whitecaps/Galaxy friendly, which was beaten up from the previous CFL season, has anyone ever heard anything positive about the Commonwealth pitch? I certainly haven't, yet I've heard many glowing revues about the pitch at Swangard.

Excellent points, I hadn't considered the amount of use real grass would get at BMO with the Argos in house vs. that currently at Commonwealth.

Definitely something the city, Argos, and MLSE should consult the experts about. I wonder if there are any real-grass stadiums in North America with full time football and soccer teams in attendance. Commonwealth might be the closest thing.

greatwhitenorf
05-23-2008, 03:00 AM
TFC's season will soon expand beyond the 19 or 20 games they'll play this year. With a successful season in MLS play, we could see the team play 15 regular season games and two playoff games. We also would still likely have the two international friendlies each year.

Concacaf Champions League would add the two Canadian qualifying round home games plus as many as six more in further play. Now we're up to 27 games.

Let's say the city and MLSE agree that, unlike the CFL, the future of soccer is likely to see increased sophistication and level of play. The smartest thing they could then do would be to decide that professional or international soccer is the core business of BMO Field and put in grass.

Finally, we'd see the National Soccer Stadium fulfill its mandate. It wouldn't be hard to foresee a year where various levels of mens and womens national teams played as many as eight or 10 games. Now we're up around 35 games.

Given that a playing schedule would run from mid-April to mid-November, that's an average of five games a month. And practices the day before would be mandatory for CCL and international games. TFC would have to practice away most of the time, but would probably get some time on it just to get familiar.

There's also the possiblilty of the stadium being used as a neutral site for friendlies like the Brazil U-20s vs Wiszla Krakow going in this summer.

More importantly, the addition of grass would open up the stadium for higher profile games than what we've seen so far. It would make the addition of 10,000 seats justifiable. Plus another rank of suites, which have been both popular and lucrative.

Add seating capacity and a grass field and you will draw the sort of clubs or countries for games that serve as a great international profile builder for this city, something the CFL could simply never hope to achieve. It's an important consideration. It was at the very root of this stadium's construction in the first place.

Put all this together, and it's a very plausible scenario, and you can see there's no real need to spend ridiculous money for movable stands or hold back the stadium's potential by keeping a plastic field to house a minor league football team that faces a troubled future.

Especially one that's likely to 'do a Toronto Lynx' once the NFL gets properly established. The current owners simply couldn't afford to finance that fight. In fact, the best thing that could happen to football in this city would be to have the Argonauts identity shifted to the NFL team.

Going a step beyond these considerations, this stadium was built for soccer and has achieved it's iconic status by the immediate and passionate response of soccer fans.

The game has always been said to have a future. Everyone knew that when the number of registered amateur players began to match hockey's numbers many years ago. Now that it's double or more what hockey enjoys, it's safe to say we've reached a tipping point.

The stadium needs to continue being decorated with colours and graphics, images and icons related to soccer. Whether it's todays Toronto FC, or acknowledgements of Toronto past teams, or our national teams and players, BMO Field needs to become a shrine to the game.

Letting another sports entity share the stadium would either dilute this process, or negate it altogether. And if soccer fans were suspicious that the motives of fearful owners from a struggling rival sport were setting out to do that, well who could blame them?

The Argos had every chance to participate in the stadium deal and after flipping, flopping and fleeing, it was apparent to all that the whole process was undertaken to leverage a sweetheart deal at the dome.

This stadium represents something very special. The success of TFC has sent out a signal. It's been heard around North America. Montreal and Vancouver can't wait to join MLS and set up sizzling rivalries with TFC. Players looking to play in MLS regard Toronto as the premiere franchise to play for.

This isn't something to fool around with. The Argos face a very uncertain future. Professional soccer doesn't. The domestic talent base is productive and growing. The ability to attract skilled import players will only grow over time.

We have a good thing going with BMO Field, Toronto FC and the game of soccer. We're seeing a well-managed club thriving in just the right environment, with huge scope for improvement and growth.

The Argos don't fit the equation and never will.

TFC+Argos4Life
05-23-2008, 01:41 PM
Finally, we'd see the National Soccer Stadium fulfill its mandate. It wouldn't be hard to foresee a year where various levels of mens and womens national teams played as many as eight or 10 games. Now we're up around 35 games.

The Blue Jays need 81 home games, along with all kinds of time for practices, etc. Rogers Centre accomodates both teams just fine. Until TFC and the National team need it more than 81 times a year, this argument gets no sympathy from me.



More importantly, the addition of grass would open up the stadium for higher profile games than what we've seen so far. It would make the addition of 10,000 seats justifiable. Plus another rank of suites, which have been both popular and lucrative.

No matter how justifiable an expansion is, it’s always EVEN MORE attractive when someone else will pay for it. The sanctity of the beautiful game is not the number 1 priority for MLSE. Money is. Loads and loads of money. If a free stadium expansion, 10 more home events per year, and a playing surface able to be rented year ‘round bring in more money than a couple of MNT games and some international friendlies, trust me they’ll take option A.


Add seating capacity and a grass field and you will draw the sort of clubs or countries for games that serve as a great international profile builder for this city, something the CFL could simply never hope to achieve. It's an important consideration. It was at the very root of this stadium's construction in the first place.

Seen BC Place or David Asper’s proposed Bomber Stadium lately?



Put all this together, and it's a very plausible scenario, and you can see there's no real need to spend ridiculous money for movable stands or hold back the stadium's potential by keeping a plastic field to house a minor league football team that faces a troubled future.

Minor league? CFL is the second tier of football in the entire world. Exactly how far down the ladder would you say MLS falls? I’d think a little harder before you start criticizing a league’s status in the world.


Going a step beyond these considerations, this stadium was built for soccer and has achieved it's iconic status by the immediate and passionate response of soccer fans.


The stadium needs to continue being decorated with colours and graphics, images and icons related to soccer. Whether it's todays Toronto FC, or acknowledgements of Toronto past teams, or our national teams and players, BMO Field needs to become a shrine to the game.

This stadium represents something very special. The success of TFC has sent out a signal. It's been heard around North America. Montreal and Vancouver can't wait to join MLS and set up sizzling rivalries with TFC. Players looking to play in MLS regard Toronto as the premiere franchise to play for.

Pretty words, but shrines don’t pay the bills.


The game has always been said to have a future. Everyone knew that when the number of registered amateur players began to match hockey's numbers many years ago. Now that it's double or more what hockey enjoys, it's safe to say we've reached a tipping point.

I wouldn’t give that figure too much significance. Soccer in many parts of the country is glorified daycare. It’s cheap, keeps the kids running around and fit, and a low probability of injury. Hockey is still treated much more seriously in this country. And where did you get the “double” idea from? I know there’s more registered in soccer, but I’ve never heard double. Any references?


The Argos had every chance to participate in the stadium deal and after flipping, flopping and fleeing, it was apparent to all that the whole process was undertaken to leverage a sweetheart deal at the dome.

I’m sure you’d much rather be playing at Jane & Finch with permanent gridiron lines in York U’s stadium, eh?


The Argos face a very uncertain future. Professional soccer doesn't.

This is my favourite part, I think I’ll print it and hang it on the wall. See, CFL fans have been hearing this for over 50 years. How have the fortunes of North American pro soccer risen and fallen since then? Don’t think the money people at MLSE and the city aren’t thinking the same thing. I’ll admit that MLS is the best shot soccer has ever had in NA, and as things stand now it’ll probably stand the test of time. At the same time, the CFL’s also doing better than it ever has. CFL has stood up to everything thrown at it and come out still swinging. Is TFC ready to make the same grand claims just yet?

sully
05-23-2008, 01:51 PM
And where did you get the ďdoubleĒ idea from? I know thereís more registered in soccer, but Iíve never heard double. Any references?



I was interested in what this statistic would be - from Wikipedia:


..for the past two decades [soccer] has overtaken ice hockey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_hockey) as the sport with the most registered players in the country. In 2005, there were 543,390 registered hockey players in Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada) compared to 841,466 soccer players.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer_in_Canada

The Kingpin
05-23-2008, 03:56 PM
Sooooooo.... Ummmmmm.... What's happening......???? Ahhhhh... Ambivalence. Maybe time for a pub night or kick about, maybe create a team other than TFC thread to talk with real 'like minded' people.... Black T-Shirts... That'll do it!!!!

masrawy
05-23-2008, 04:01 PM
Sooooooo.... Ummmmmm.... What's happening......???? Ahhhhh... Ambivalence. Maybe time for a pub night or kick about, maybe create a team other than TFC thread to talk with real 'like minded' people.... Black T-Shirts... That'll do it!!!!


So, ummmmm, how about you relax as the organizers of this protest are all traveling to DC and Montreal and aren't sitting in the North of England nagging?

Zidane10
05-23-2008, 07:58 PM
The black T-shirt idea is a really good one. We need to clearly show what the protest is about, though. We need banners that clearly state a message; it shouldn't be too vague or symbolic.....

TFC+Argos4Life
05-23-2008, 09:24 PM
Awwwww, got some bad news guys:

http://www.torontosun.com/Sports/Football/2008/05/23/5646616-sun.html

About two thirds of the way down:

"Watters insisted the team is staying at Rogers Centre, despite speculation they one day will return to their CNE roots at an enlarged BMO facility." -Brad Watters, COO Toronto Argonauts

Oh well, so much for that idea :)

denime
05-23-2008, 09:31 PM
We will have our protest anyway.One article doesn't change the fact,that they were thinking about it.

Angelo1405
05-23-2008, 09:38 PM
funny how we try to make this happen. even though they just announced (kind of, but whos gonna anounce a team staying?) it. were too far in the process, its hard to let go lol :taz:

Fort York Redcoat
05-25-2008, 09:09 AM
Common tactic. Now they expect us to settle down like the move would never happen and spring it on us later. we should show our intentions to protest this regardless of what state this stadium decision is in.

Dredg_XI
05-25-2008, 07:53 PM
We will have our protest anyway.One article doesn't change the fact,that they were thinking about it.

lol...dumbass.

"They WERE gonna do it, so let's act like a bunch of selfish little bitches."

Ugh...you guys are starting to make us look like a joke around the league.

I'll agree we have the most passionate fans. But we also have the dumbest.

Couple gripes I've had with supporters in general:

- When the game is 0-0 and the ref gives us a bad call, shut the fuck up. Jeering him will make him biased. Bullshit, yes. But soccer refs have more discretion than any other ref, in any other sport.

- A: It's "Allez! Allez!" not "Olle! Olle!"...fucking ridiculous. B: Traditionally, it's only sung when your team is WINNING. NOT losing. It's more a celebratory thing.

- Stop acting like you know EVERYTHING about EVERY rumoured signee for TFC. We all know you just Wiki'd, Google'd, and/or YouTube'd said player.

- Stop being elitist douche bags. The whole league hates you guys, and outside your little circle, you're a joke.

Check out BigSoccer.com and try to find something positive about the RPB outside of the Toronto FC section.

Iguy
05-29-2008, 02:37 PM
I really doubt that the argos will start playing BMO, or that it has ever been seriously considered

TFC Cityboy
05-29-2008, 02:50 PM
lol...dumbass.

"They WERE gonna do it, so let's act like a bunch of selfish little bitches."

Ugh...you guys are starting to make us look like a joke around the league.

I'll agree we have the most passionate fans. But we also have the dumbest.

Couple gripes I've had with supporters in general:

- When the game is 0-0 and the ref gives us a bad call, shut the fuck up. Jeering him will make him biased. Bullshit, yes. But soccer refs have more discretion than any other ref, in any other sport.

- A: It's "Allez! Allez!" not "Olle! Olle!"...fucking ridiculous. B: Traditionally, it's only sung when your team is WINNING. NOT losing. It's more a celebratory thing.

- Stop acting like you know EVERYTHING about EVERY rumoured signee for TFC. We all know you just Wiki'd, Google'd, and/or YouTube'd said player.

- Stop being elitist douche bags. The whole league hates you guys, and outside your little circle, you're a joke.

Check out BigSoccer.com and try to find something positive about the RPB outside of the Toronto FC section.

did someone get out of bed on the wrong side today?
:)

The Kingpin
05-29-2008, 03:12 PM
So, ummmmm, how about you relax as the organizers of this protest are all traveling to DC and Montreal and aren't sitting in the North of England nagging?

Aren't you basically a young child? I have the sense that you haven't achieved very much to understand the notion of multitasking and delegation. I have asked numerous individuals to step up beyond the 'Executive' and nobody has. This is similar to the tailgating situation; Pat, Craig et al begged for help and there was none. Now they have begun to pack it in because of the complacency. You pretend to understand what you are talking about but in essence you are a young boy who has very little clue about immobilisation and organisation. We now live in a global community and the Red Patch Boys do not limit your involvement based on your location, so me living in England has no bearing on my involvement and ability to make an impact; what is it you are doing to help?

BTW - organizers = organisers & traveling = travelling - Welcome to Canada!

masrawy
05-29-2008, 07:34 PM
Aren't you basically a young child? I have the sense that you haven't achieved very much to understand the notion of multitasking and delegation. I have asked numerous individuals to step up beyond the 'Executive' and nobody has. This is similar to the tailgating situation; Pat, Craig et al begged for help and there was none. Now they have begun to pack it in because of the complacency. You pretend to understand what you are talking about but in essence you are a young boy who has very little clue about immobilisation and organisation. We now live in a global community and the Red Patch Boys do not limit your involvement based on your location, so me living in England has no bearing on my involvement and ability to make an impact; what is it you are doing to help?

BTW - organizers = organisers & traveling = travelling - Welcome to Canada!

Thing is this isn't just an RPB thing, it was an NEE proposal and the organizational legwork is being done by all the groups. With everyone back and recovered after a week of following the club, something solid will come out in the next few days. If you have a suggestion on how we should move forward, PM me and I'll forward it to the people organizing this thing.

I would like to think that I know something about organizing and immobilizing, how many tifos have you succesfully planned in your reign as RPB vice secretary of commerce and marketing or whatever your role was? None? Thought so. All this other corporate speak is plastic, I don't really understand it much.

Sorry about the spelling, I grew up attending American schools, old habits die hard. I'm trying Ringo, I'm trying real hard.

The Pope
05-29-2008, 08:43 PM
http://filmic.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/pulp_fiction-bible.jpg?w=298&h=139

alexintoronto
05-29-2008, 09:17 PM
I think you're confusing Masrawy with some other people. He's young by some standards, but has done a hell of a lot for TFC and for TFC Supporters. He's not one of the people who are just along for the ride, he's not complacent and he's not clueless. I don't expect you to know all of the things he's done but these are just a few things I've seen him contribute to: tifos, chants, banners, the Argos protest.

You're right, being in England doesn't mean you can't contribute - I think what Masrawy suggested is a good idea - PM any ideas, suggestions or game plans. Or lead the way in your own thing if you don't like the direction things are going.

alexintoronto
05-29-2008, 09:20 PM
One other note - there are a few people getting quotes for the shirts - if anyone else has any connections and wants to submit a quote on their behalf - now's the time!

TO DEVILS
05-29-2008, 09:31 PM
TiT wants to be in the know....just because he doesn't know it doesn't mean nothing is happening.

I am waiting for the second coming of TiT or like i will call it, The Rapture, when he comes back to Toronto to show all of us kids how it should be done.

After all we all remember the amazing trips he organized, the great tifos and banners he spent countless hours working on, distributing flyers and song sheets, and also driving the RPB boat to glory.

You guys remember those things, right?

The Kingpin
05-30-2008, 12:27 AM
masrawy

I had to shake my head a little, I thought I was on the NEE board. Look, at times you guys run ram-shot here insulting individuals and their efforts with consistent regularity, this is why it became necessary to create a members only section. My post (which was old by message board standards) is out of frustration considering we may have missed the boat. To effectively immobilise the Toronto Argonauts and amass the supporters takes time, and that time is passing rapidly. In this particular case T-Shirts or a very small part of the solution. I understand that many are volunteers, so I think you have no need to inform me of this fact, this is why I have regularly called out others who were showing 'concern'. I have offered my services in this area and one person responded:

Ok, I typed a big post in response... And it was lost...

The short of it:

I can assemble a very strong strategy. I just need a team to brainstorm with. I do this for a living... We will build a strategic workback... this can be done, we don't need BS, etc..

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Kingpin
this is why you need a PR campaign. The rhetoric will change if we alter perceptions. WILL ANYONE STEP UP FOR A BRAINSTORM?

Jack:
I think this is a good idea.

I know that NEE have done this on their private members forum.

We can either do a thread, or we can try to work out a time to do a conference call (although Pat, that might be tough to schedule for you).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
I think this is a good idea.

I know that NEE have done this on their private members forum.

The Kingpin:
We can either do a thread, or we can try to work out a time to do a conference call (although Pat, that might be tough to schedule for you).
I'm willing to make concessions, if it is during the weekend I can be much more flexible with times. Otherwise I can submit some ideas and a brief strategic outline as a spine to build and overarching plan. I think it's important to 'draft' individuals into this. We need writers and individuals willing to make numerous calls on behalf of the group, these calls have to be professional in nature and consistent as well. We need to derive poignant messages that depict a gloomy picture for what has become a fledgling sporting beacon in this city.

Now I have asked to be kept informed so I can assist, so comments such as "TiT wants to be in the know....just because he doesn't know it doesn't mean nothing is happening." are a perfect example of my frustrations. If I have on numerous occasions offered my services why has no one "informed" me of what is happening? I am a viral marketing specialist and have worked in Public Relations and numerous other forms of Marketing. I have been doing this for 12+ years and feel that these abilities will help. I know in the days when I was in Toronto I did nothing, this is why I want to help now. TO DEVILS is right, I was not involved in anything at all... I'm just looking for a little redemption.

GabrielHurl
05-30-2008, 03:13 AM
masrawy

I had to shake my head a little, I thought I was on the NEE board. Look, at times you guys run ram-shot here insulting individuals and their efforts with consistent regularity,

http://forum.football365.com/images/smiley_icons/icon_yawn.gif

The Kingpin
05-30-2008, 07:55 AM
http://forum.football365.com/images/smiley_icons/icon_yawn.gif

"this is why it became necessary to create a members only section"

alexintoronto
05-30-2008, 08:34 AM
So you're organizing in the RPB Member's only section (which is good because it's not public for the world to see). I don't see the problem.

The Kingpin
05-30-2008, 09:45 AM
So you're organizing in the RPB Member's only section (which is good because it's not public for the world to see). I don't see the problem.

The problem is that all supporters clubs will need volunteers to help with these types of things. Now I can only speak for Red Patch in this regard as I don't claim to know what happens with the other groups, but there seems to be complacency in this respect. I adjoin it to the tailgates, the Tailgate Team was begging for volunteers and they received very little help. It seems like so many want to leech off the experience but put nothing back in to make it stronger and sustainable.

As I see it now, we have a major issue with aligning ourselves and galvanising a common opinion going forward. There is not a true team approach, at times we must relinquish our own opinion to support the gross majority. Think of it this way, if you are an all out offensive player on a defensive minded squad how would you react. We need to create a statement and agree in force. A team needs to be built to simply manage the issue and then go forward with a strategic plan. MLSE/TFC et al do this on a daily basis, one or two supporters meeting where t-shirt colours are agreed on will do very little. This needs to be a multi-pronged attack. It needs to be consistent. There needs to be a controlled level of vitriol. This is my opinion, I hope my naysayers can look beyond their contempt for me because I have strong opinions and see that I'm trying to assist as I want what was a great experience for me to continue when I return.

Dave67
05-30-2008, 10:32 AM
I think the tailgate problem was that it was not really a tailgate. From a police perspective towards the end it must have looked more like a vending stand. You are right though, too few people were putting in. In a true tailgate experience you bring what you need and get together to party. If you fall into a free beer or food the great but it should never be expected.

I think the SSS issue is that many of us still are not sure there is an attack on us. It seems to be a mixed message coming in. It's hard to get wound up about our SSS being attacked when we are not sure we are even being attacked.

My problem with you is not your strong opinion. My problem is the regular "I have done these things for major corporations" slant. You tend to talk to the masses like we are all uneducated morons who don't own houses or have major jobs ourselves. It comes across as talking down and talking down to people rarely gets them set to rally.

I understand why the groups want to get a common message and present or demonstrate it to the city, clubs and MLSE but I am having a hard time getting wound up enough to protest without feeling like we are under attack.

As always I'll be buying and wearing whatever the groups decide for this one, but lately it's starting to feel like a non starter.

alexintoronto
05-31-2008, 07:36 PM
DO NOT trust what the Argos, MLSE or the Mayors office says. We still need to go ahead with our protest. Anything you've heard is just to stop us from moving forward.

sweetlemon69
05-31-2008, 08:04 PM
I'm going to get a black shirt that has an argo's symbol with a red line through it. I'm in 110/ row 10/ seats 1-11. I'll get my whole row to do it.

Angelo1405
05-31-2008, 08:06 PM
is this Going to happen ???

alexintoronto
05-31-2008, 08:08 PM
I'm going to get a black shirt that has an argo's symbol with a red line through it. I'm in 110/ row 10/ seats 1-11. I'll get my whole row to do it.


There will be some shirts available - likely for about $5 each.

sweetlemon69
05-31-2008, 08:10 PM
There will be some shirts available - likely for about $5 each.

oh awesome, where can I pick them up? I

Jack
05-31-2008, 08:10 PM
I'm back from 8 days of no internet and very little forum action. Now we can start to look at this more in depth.

Answer your phone Pat, you drunken bastard.

Anyway, not tonight, but this is something that we need to get onto the front burner very soon.

The Kingpin
06-01-2008, 12:07 AM
I'm back from 8 days of no internet and very little forum action. Now we can start to look at this more in depth.

Answer your phone Pat, you drunken bastard.

Anyway, not tonight, but this is something that we need to get onto the front burner very soon.


You called at 1:22AM... And yes, I was drunk. I'll give you a shout this afternoon (your time). Cheers!!

Dredg_XI
06-07-2008, 07:00 PM
DO NOT trust what the Argos, MLSE or the Mayors office says. We still need to go ahead with our protest. Anything you've heard is just to stop us from moving forward.

what a twat.

greatwhitenorf
06-09-2008, 01:16 AM
I like alexintoronto's point. It's worth keeping in mind.

Not sure what your's is, but I admire your restraint in not referring again to someone as 'an elitist douchebag.'

TFC+Argos4Life
06-10-2008, 11:58 AM
DO NOT trust what the Argos, MLSE or the Mayors office says. We still need to go ahead with our protest. Anything you've heard is just to stop us from moving forward.


There will be some shirts available - likely for about $5 each.

Sounds to me like a guy who's invested a little money in T-shirts and wants the protest to go ahead so he can make a little money.

Don't you guys think you're going to look a little stupid protesting something that's not happening?

Jack
06-10-2008, 12:01 PM
Sounds to me like a guy who's invested a little money in T-shirts and wants the protest to go ahead so he can make a little money.

Don't you guys think you're going to look a little stupid protesting something that's not happening?
Alex is a respected member of the community, so I very much doubt this is the case.

The idea that we're protesting something that isn't going to happen is exactly the mentality that they want us to have.

Roogsy
06-10-2008, 12:04 PM
Pffft....Alex puts his own money on the line for TFC events and tifos. He's the last one I would accuse of trying to make money off of this. Nice of you to impune something on someone who has done nothing but support TFC...unlike yourself.

Sid
06-10-2008, 06:28 PM
honestly why are the argos trying to get in to our house where soccer is only played they have the skydome come on we need to keep this as a soccer feild :mad:

alexintoronto
06-10-2008, 07:36 PM
Hey people are talkin about me! :D

The shirts will go on sale - was hoping for $5 a shirt, but that was very dependant on the quantity ordered. So... they will be $10 a shirt and ALL money after costs will go towards keeping BMO Field Soccer Specific or supporting Toronto FC with receipts shown to the leaders of each group involved and anyone else that requests them.

We will need volunteers - so if you can help please do! (up to and including taking the whole thing over)

Sounds to me like someone has an agenda ^ :)

(Note: I did speak to VP Jr to see if we can get a better deal)

GaryJamboTFC
06-11-2008, 12:06 AM
Sounds to me like a guy who's invested a little money in T-shirts and wants the protest to go ahead so he can make a little money.

Don't you guys think you're going to look a little stupid protesting something that's not happening?

What a dirtbag. Don't you think you look a little stupid, still taking money to spread lies on fan boards for "something that's not happening?"

The existence of people like you is what makes fan efforts like Alex's vitally important.

I'm down for two shirts, Alex.

Roogsy
06-11-2008, 12:08 AM
If there is a thread for this shirt somewhere, let us know. I want one as well.

TFC RealDeal RPB
06-11-2008, 04:10 PM
I down for this geat protest.

Jack
06-13-2008, 09:28 AM
Protest is on hold after receiving new information about plans for the area around BMO Field. Or rather, lack of plans.

Dave67
06-13-2008, 09:38 AM
AlexinToronto are you out of pocket for tshirts already or were they not ordered yet.

alexintoronto
06-13-2008, 09:50 AM
AlexinToronto are you out of pocket for tshirts already or were they not ordered yet.


No - they weren't ordered yet. I was holding off to get final word on our position.

Thanks for asking though.

TO DEVILS
06-13-2008, 09:56 AM
I spoke to Jack about this last night and also with Usector...it seems that the general feeling is that this is a dead issue.

I am not so sure and i agree that a massive protest may not be in order, but i think we should still wear black on that day.

Wearing black will at least show, that we are here and we are paying attention to you.

I would hope that RPB and Usector would do the same.

greatwhitenorf
06-13-2008, 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwhitenorf http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?p=15871#post15871)
The Argos face a very uncertain future. Professional soccer doesn't.



This is my favourite part, I think I’ll print it and hang it on the wall. See, CFL fans have been hearing this for over 50 years. How have the fortunes of North American pro soccer risen and fallen since then? Don’t think the money people at MLSE and the city aren’t thinking the same thing. I’ll admit that MLS is the best shot soccer has ever had in NA, and as things stand now it’ll probably stand the test of time. At the same time, the CFL’s also doing better than it ever has. CFL has stood up to everything thrown at it and come out still swinging. Is TFC ready to make the same grand claims just yet?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yeah, that tough, old CFL. Ten feet tall and bulletproof.


On the CBC.ca website, a report that B.C. senator Larry Campbell will introduce a bill in Ottawa to prevent the establishment of or relocation of an NFL franchise in Canada. He's frightened for the CFL's future unless it's properly protected from competition.

' "If this plan were to come to fruition, I, together with many others, believe that the CFL's future would be in significant peril," Campbell said when introducing the bill. "As proud Canadians and fans of the CFL, we must make every effort to defend our own brand of football."

Bills Toronto Series Organizers reported in May that 180,000 ticket requests have been registered for the eight games — five regular-season and three exhibition contests — to be played at the Rogers Centre through the 2012 season.'

Please add this to your wall.

Barbarez
06-13-2008, 10:08 AM
.........

alexintoronto
06-13-2008, 10:15 AM
DO NOT trust what the Argos, MLSE or the Mayors office says. We still need to go ahead with our protest. Anything you've heard is just to stop us from moving forward.


I still believe this. If the groups don't think now is the time for a big protest that's fine. But we must be ready for one. I hope everyone wears black that day regardless of whther it's an "official" protest.

Jack
06-13-2008, 10:24 AM
I think wearing all black just to let them know we are watching, but not doing the full protest is a good idea, Pedro.

Jack
06-13-2008, 10:24 AM
I still believe this. If the groups don't think now is the time for a big protest that's fine. But we must be ready for one.
Well, I'm not ready to lay it to rest either, but given the news from the community meeting yesterday, there are not even any proposed ideas for expanding or even thinking about expanding being put forth to the CNE (who would have to authorize it). They are also talking about very large sums of money.

jabbronies
06-13-2008, 10:26 AM
Sorry, what was actually said at that community meeting??

TO DEVILS
06-13-2008, 10:27 AM
I think wearing all black just to let them know we are watching, but not doing the full protest is a good idea, Pedro.

Great...i think it's the best thing to do right now.;)

Jack
06-13-2008, 10:30 AM
Sorry, what was actually said at that community meeting??

Here are the main points that came out of this meeing that pertain to us.


TFC & MLSE Success In 2007 MLSE made ~$1 million profit on the TFC franchise. Thatís for year 1! It was pointed out that, and I donít know how MLSE benefits here, that the FIFA U20 made a large contribution to their bottom line. Now thatís interesting. Because the U20 actually required a ďLoss SubsidyĒ from FIFA despite having the best attendance record ever for that event. Go figure.


MLS & TFC MLS claims that behind LA Ė TFC is the most successful franchise in the league, in terms of revenue. TFC has the highest revenue in sponsorship, food & beverage sales and merchandise (I know Ė hard to believe that they exceed LA).


BMO Field Community Usage On the topic of BMO Field community usageÖ ~1370 hours were rented by community groups in 2007, making it one of the most fully booked outdoor venues in Ontario. The only way they could increase BMO Field usage would be to increase operating hours like they do ice rinks.


Structural Changes to BMO Field There has been no communications to/with the CNE (who own the land that BMO sits on) or any levels of government to change the existing structure (roof or increase stand capacity). If anything, there have been very preliminary discussions about turf replacement. However, reconciling the excessive community demand for field use all year round and the demand for turf replacement is a very challenging. I guess that means there exploring if grass will dent their ability to make the field available for community use year round.


Tailgate According to unnamed sources, last month the police were not instructed to shut down TFC tailgates. But it has been encouraged from the top (strong mandate) to enforce existing bylaws. The open flame bylaw is nearly never enforced unless a police officer needs a tool to shut down something where an open flame is present, if they feel there is good reason to. For example, intoxicated people handling open fire, etc.


Police and Being Drunk But Ė and this is important. Any drunk or disorderly conduct will be severally dealt with for the remainder of the season by police. No exceptions. There will be no warnings, including at BMO field. If you are deemed to be an ďat riskĒ fan police may choose to escort you out at their discretion. Security has been instructed to let police deal with these types of incidences.

alexintoronto
06-13-2008, 10:33 AM
Some options for black shirts:

http://mls.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pMLB2-4451986dt.jpg

http://www.mlsgear.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3006269&cp=2998966.3018863


http://images.cafepress.com/product/274366872v3_240x240_Front_Color-Black.jpg

http://www.cafepress.com/northendelite.274366872

And I think there is another Toronto FC shirt that you can get at BMO Field and other places.

ExiledRed
06-13-2008, 10:34 AM
^^Does drunk and disorderly include holding my third beer and screaming "fuck you, you yellow shirted cunt!"

Would that make me an 'at risk' fan?

Jack
06-13-2008, 10:35 AM
^^Does drunk and disorderly include holding my third beer and screaming "fuck you, you yellow shirted cunt!"

Would that make me an 'at risk' fan?
That would just make you yourself. :D

greatwhitenorf
06-13-2008, 11:11 AM
Beyond protesting the housing of an 'at risk' CFL franchise, is there anything that can be done in a positive way to enhance the stadium's soccer specific status?

I see the many advertising banners hung on walls or in air spaces and wonder if there's a possibility of hanging or painting non-commercial graphics or images - montages in different locations - of great moments or players from past and present put up high on the walls? Something to establish and reinforce cultural awareness of what the game in Toronto has been about previously and where it's going.

My neighbours are beginning to go to games, complete neophytes who don't know much about the past. Even the significance of Dichio's first goal last year. It'd be cool for people to have these sort of artworks as reference points. As the club's history grows, obviously the TFC element would expand.

The corridors at Joe Louis Arena in Detroit have a great mix of ads and historic images. The Kitchener Rangers put up some really cool photo montages in their arena concourses of their past history when they hosted the Memorial Cup this year.

Some great names have played in Toronto - for clubs and country - and TFC have already built a fantastic following. Creating and adding to a sort of historic visual element would be a great way help strengthen the soccer identity of BMO Field. Perhaps a sponsor would be willing to help cover costs. You could get fans and media involved in deciding what to portray in each montage.

Jack
06-13-2008, 11:17 AM
I think that's a great point 'norf.

Rudi, Pedro? Perhaps something to touch upon with TFC at our next meeting?

Funny enough, yesterday, after our meeting in the BMO Lounge, I found myself somewhat offended by the presence of signed jerseys of our rivals being displayed in places of honour inside our stadium. I don't want a fucking Columbus Crew jersey or a New York Shite Bulls jersey hanging in a place of honour in my house!

For me, the only place they should have in our stadium is to line the urinals.

Anyway, I think we should, and hopefull will soon, have more history with which to decorate our stadium so we don't have to have jerseys of our rivals in our house. Can you imagine a Real Madrid jersey hanging in the Camp Nou? A Habs jersey in a place of honour at the ACC? A Red Sox jersey in a place of honour at Yankee Stadium?

No way.