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giambac
08-18-2008, 01:58 PM
I didn't watch the game yesterday. I turned on the tv saw the football lines and immediatley turned off the tv.

I did see the highlight of the goals.

Was Marvell Wynne back from the olympics? Was he sitting on the bench yesterday?

I think his speed would have prevented the first goal of the game. Please tell me that Carver didn't have him on the bench because he wanted to field the same team as the previous week when they beat a terrible Colorado side.

Can someone confirm. I hope that's not why he was on the bench. having Wynn in the game would have gotten us a draw or win.

TFCGing
08-18-2008, 02:00 PM
No idea what Carver was thinking, but Wynne was back from the Olympics and yes he did stay on the bench the whole game. TFC ran out of subs pretty early into the second half because of Dichio's injury so maybe that's why he didn't really have a choice.

Parkdale
08-18-2008, 02:00 PM
I'm sure he didn't play because he just came back from China.
If he wasn't suited up to play, it's probably from the days of jetlag.
There would be no reason not to start him, despite what some people think Carver would do.

I hope that's not what you're fishing for.

Daveisonfire
08-18-2008, 02:00 PM
I believe Wynne was on the bench...and I don't doubt we would have seen him come into the game if Dichio didn't get hurt

trane
08-18-2008, 02:01 PM
The first goal was too central for Wynne to make a difference. Wynne would not have made a difference on that play, it was a vertical pass right between Center Backs. Attakora played well, in my opinion anyway, both at the back, and in bringing the ball forward.

ensco
08-18-2008, 02:03 PM
The first goal was too central for Wynne to make a difference. Wynne would not have made a difference on that play, it was a vertical pass right between Center Backs. Attakora played well, in my opinion anyway, both at the back, and in bringing the ball forward.

That's not right. Remember Wynne run Landycakes down from 10 meters back from the OPPOSITE side of the field at LA?

MG42
08-18-2008, 02:14 PM
If Wynne was out there I have no doubt he would have won the foot race, even fron the right side.

Don Julio
08-18-2008, 02:14 PM
Wynne was going to be brought in imminently when Dichio got injured, costing us our last sub. I think it was a reasonable decision, rewarding Attakora for a good effort last week while not putting Wynne in for the full 90 while recovering from jet lag and a crazy week in China.

Corpand
08-18-2008, 02:15 PM
Jetlag people, jetlag.

joel
08-18-2008, 02:19 PM
Hmm who would giambac like to hate today

TFC-Tyler
08-18-2008, 02:23 PM
Jetlag is a weak excuse. He could have played, and it seems quite obvious he would have were it not for Dichio's injury. You dont normally suit guys up who have such severe jetlag that they could never play.;):rolleyes:

H Bomb
08-18-2008, 02:30 PM
Jetlag is a weak excuse. He could have played, and it seems quite obvious he would have were it not for Dichio's injury. You dont normally suit guys up who have such severe jetlag that they could never play.;):rolleyes:

Ugh, Jetlag and having played 3 days earlier is a completely reasonable reason to not start a match. This is China folks, not a quick trip to Vancouver or something. 12-13 hours time difference. This place is very very silly :noidea:

RPB_Brantford_08
08-18-2008, 02:30 PM
No idea what Carver was thinking, but Wynne was back from the Olympics and yes he did stay on the bench the whole game. TFC ran out of subs pretty early into the second half because of Dichio's injury so maybe that's why he didn't really have a choice.


players coming off international duty are intitled to a wee rest by fifa,
so he wasn;t going to play even if we were short. Its a good rule as
you can't have players coming back from onternational play right back into league football, travelling aside, which is long enough, players need a break, we had enough quality on the pitch to get the job done, it just didn't happen.

BC101
08-18-2008, 02:38 PM
Ugh, Jetlag and having played 3 days earlier is a completely reasonable reason to not start a match. This is China folks, not a quick trip to Vancouver or something. 12-13 hours time difference. This place is very very silly :noidea:

I know its ridiculous in'it? 16-18 hour flight and yer just supposed to get on the field and play? LOL...

ricciboy
08-18-2008, 02:39 PM
he was resting him idk?

TFC-Tyler
08-18-2008, 02:50 PM
Ugh, Jetlag and having played 3 days earlier is a completely reasonable reason to not start a match. This is China folks, not a quick trip to Vancouver or something. 12-13 hours time difference. This place is very very silly :noidea:
Your opinion =/= fact.

I didnt say he should have been starting, I said he should have been playing and he would have were it not for Dichio's injury.

Honestly, you seem to quote everyone of my posts and either read something that isnt there, or make something up. On to ignore you go!:o

H Bomb
08-18-2008, 03:16 PM
Your opinion =/= fact.

I didnt say he should have been starting, I said he should have been playing and he would have were it not for Dichio's injury.

Honestly, you seem to quote everyone of my posts and either read something that isnt there, or make something up. On to ignore you go!:o


Is that why you're sending me personal messages then?
And if i'm not yet on your ignore list answer me why he would come on at all. He's a right back. Nana is a right back with full fitness. So who would move over. Marvell doesn't hold possession too well, so why make a like for like change on a defender at any point for tactical reasons.

giambac
08-18-2008, 03:29 PM
If Wynne was out there I have no doubt he would have won the foot race, even fron the right side.


So not having Wynn in cost us the game and possibly a playoff spot??????

I to think Wynn would have caught up to the NY player..

giambac
08-18-2008, 03:35 PM
Wynne was going to be brought in imminently when Dichio got injured, costing us our last sub. I think it was a reasonable decision, rewarding Attakora for a good effort last week while not putting Wynne in for the full 90 while recovering from jet lag and a crazy week in China.

No,

NY scored in the first half. Dichio got injured in the 2nd half.

Wynn should have been starting and if so the score would have been 0-0 at the half and we would have had a man advantage in the 2nd half.

H Bomb
08-18-2008, 03:37 PM
No,

NY scored in the first half. Dichio got injured in the 2nd half.

Wynn should have been starting and if so the score would have been 0-0 at the half and we would have had a man advantage in the 2nd half.

Wynne playing adds a new variable to the match meaning that all event's where he is in and Nana are not must be completely separated. If Marvell was playing that play would have never happened and who know's where the game would have been at that point, good or bad.

giambac
08-18-2008, 03:38 PM
Jetlag people, jetlag.

he got back to TO on Thursday.

I think by Sunday he should have been okay. Otherwise why even bring him to NY??

giambac
08-18-2008, 03:40 PM
Hmm who would giambac like to hate today

Nobady to hate.

I just think if you have aplayer that can suit up (and he did) then he should be okay to go. It's late in the season and you have to use your best palyers that are available , especially when your missing players.

Think what you want but yesterday's game may have cost us the playoffs.

TFC-Tyler
08-18-2008, 03:40 PM
Wynne playing adds a new variable to the match meaning that all event's where he is in and Nana are not must be completely separated. If Marvell was playing that play would have never happened and who know's where the game would have been at that point, good or bad.
Wynne would not have done worse than Attakora, and things wre already bad at that point.

Hitcho
08-18-2008, 03:40 PM
WTF?! How can people come on here and start banging on about weak excuses, stupid not to play him, he would have been fine, etc etc?! The only, and I mean the ONLY possible way to know that is if you are the coach and you watch the player train. If Wynne started and was only at 65% because of fatigue or whatever else, and he made a mistake leading to a goal or even just had a bad game, then two things would have happened. 1 - all the idiots on here making stupid statements about him not playing would have been calling for his head and screaming what a terrible player he was. 2 - Carver would have been castigated for playing an unfit Wynne when he had Atta to play instead.

If you weren't at training, if you haven't actually spoken to the guy to see how exhausted he was or wasn't and if you don't actually know diddly squat about professional fitness levels and stamina, then you cannot make the call. Carver was, he did and he does. He made the call, and he made it for a reason. No-one on here is in any position to question it. He was coach at Newcastle for crying out loud, he knows if a player is condition to start a game or if he should start from the bench.

H Bomb
08-18-2008, 03:42 PM
Wynne would not have done worse than Attakora, and things wre already bad at that point.

read it again, slower maybe. It simply would not have happened. Variables make for different results. The game would have been 100% different in every moment. I'm only bringing it up since the point of the thread is a useless hypothetical.

giambac
08-18-2008, 03:43 PM
Wynne playing adds a new variable to the match meaning that all event's where he is in and Nana are not must be completely separated. If Marvell was playing that play would have never happened and who know's where the game would have been at that point, good or bad.

Agreed,

I honestly believe if Wynne started Ny wouldn't have scored their first goal.

I believe it would have been 0-0 at half.

There would have been no need to bring in Dichio right at the start of the second half. Therefore Dichio wouldn't have been injured.

If Wynne started,
1) TFC woould have draw or won
2) Dichio wouldn't have been injured becasue he wouldn't have come in at the beginning of the 2nd half.

C'est la vie!

rocker
08-18-2008, 03:46 PM
McBride only came in during the second half of Chicago's game the other day.

H Bomb
08-18-2008, 03:46 PM
Agreed,

I honestly believe if Wynne started Ny wouldn't have scored their first goal.

I believe it would have been 0-0 at half.

There would have been no need to bring in Dichio right at the start of the second half. Therefore Dichio wouldn't have been injured.

If Wynne started,
1) TFC woould have draw or won
2) Dichio wouldn't have been injured becasue he wouldn't have come in at the beginning of the 2nd half.

C'est la vie!


More of those worthless hypotheticals I was talking about. you really struggle with things like words and thoughts don't ya Giamy?

TFC-Tyler
08-18-2008, 03:48 PM
he got back to TO on Thursday.

I think by Sunday he should have been okay. Otherwise why even bring him to NY??
There goes Hbomb's jetlag argument. If it was as bad as claimed, why would he be suited up? Not to mention Brian McBride.

You can pretend to be intelligent and talk about variables all day long, we have a better chance to win with Wynne, and had Wynne been in that position the goal would not have been scored.

giambac
08-18-2008, 03:48 PM
WTF?! How can people come on here and start banging on about weak excuses, stupid not to play him, he would have been fine, etc etc?! The only, and I mean the ONLY possible way to know that is if you are the coach and you watch the player train. If Wynne started and was only at 65% because of fatigue or whatever else, and he made a mistake leading to a goal or even just had a bad game, then two things would have happened. 1 - all the idiots on here making stupid statements about him not playing would have been calling for his head and screaming what a terrible player he was. 2 - Carver would have been castigated for playing an unfit Wynne when he had Atta to play instead.

If you weren't at training, if you haven't actually spoken to the guy to see how exhausted he was or wasn't and if you don't actually know diddly squat about professional fitness levels and stamina, then you cannot make the call. Carver was, he did and he does. He made the call, and he made it for a reason. No-one on here is in any position to question it. He was coach at Newcastle for crying out loud, he knows if a player is condition to start a game or if he should start from the bench.

I'm not blaming Carver for not starting him if he was tired or had jet lag. But do we know if that is the reason.?

Carver also has a policy to use the same players after a win. In the past he has used the policy that after an international match the palyer has to earn his spot back on the starting 11. Was this the case yestewrday?

I'm not sure and I'm only asking if anyone heard anything??

giambac
08-18-2008, 03:51 PM
McBride only came in during the second half of Chicago's game the other day.

When did Chiacvago play? Saturday?

TFC played Sunday and therfore Wynne had an extra day of rest.

I figure if Mcbride same in during the 2nd ahalf on Saturday, Wynne with the extra day should have been okay to start.

When games are important as this one was, you got to give it 100%

H Bomb
08-18-2008, 03:52 PM
There goes Hbomb's jetlag argument. If it was as bad as claimed, why would he be suited up? Not to mention Brian McBride.

You can pretend to be intelligent and talk about variables all day long, we have a better chance to win with Wynne, and had Wynne been in that position the goal would not have been scored.

thursday - sunday isn't that much for 12 hours of jetlag. And when did he arrive. How much did he train between when he got back and the game, and again he played a full game on wednesday half way around the world. Information, not assumptions. I dont have it all, but I'm willing to look at them. But hey thanks for calling me smart.

GabrielHurl
08-18-2008, 03:54 PM
Jesus H Tittyfucking Christ - this place sometimes :rollseyes:

BC101
08-18-2008, 03:55 PM
Whenever i fly to and from Asia... It takes me 2-3 days to get over the Jet lag... BTW England 6 hour flight China 16-18 hour flight... Someone doesn't understand time zones... Or experienced Jet Lag ever... Not saying its the fault of the jet lag since he apparently came back Thursday but it does take awhile to get over it...

TFC-Tyler
08-18-2008, 03:57 PM
thursday - sunday isn't that much for 12 hours of jetlag. And when did he arrive. How much did he train between when he got back and the game, and again he played a full game on wednesday half way around the world. Information, not assumptions. I dont have it all, but I'm willing to look at them. But hey thanks for calling me smart.
Thursday-Sunday is more than enough, I've actually been overseas before for extended periods of time.

For the record, saying 'keep pretending you're intelligent' is not calling someone smart. But then again, you just proved you wouldnt know the difference.

Southsider
08-18-2008, 03:58 PM
I feel a need to reply to this thread. What we're all commenting on here is pure 100% fabrication and FUCKING BULLSHIT!! We don't know why Wynne wasn't started, nobody can remotely guess if he could have stopped that goal (the Redbulls (are shite) took full advantage of a counterattack). And stopping Dichio from being injured?? :eek: C'mon seriously, what are you on? Wynne likes to play forward, who's to say he wouldn't have been caught sneeking up the wing? That's what I predict, so it's obviously fact, isn't that how it works around here now?


Kris.

TFC-Tyler
08-18-2008, 04:00 PM
Whenever i fly to and from Asia... It takes me 2-3 days to get over the Jet lag... BTW England 6 hour flight China 16-18 hour flight... Someone doesn't understand time zones... Or experienced Jet Lag ever... Not saying its the fault of the jet lag since he apparently came back Thursday but it does take awhile to get over it...
When I flew from Malaysia it took maybe a day at the most.

And who even mentioned time zones? Not sure who you're referring to there.

Shakes McQueen
08-18-2008, 04:00 PM
Wynne hasn't been part of the game plan for a few weeks, and Attakora played well in Colorado. Plus, as others mentioned, Wynne needed a break after the Olympics. I think Carver made the right choice to have Attakora start.

As for the first goal, hindsight is always 20/20. As H Bomb noted though, you can't throw a new player into the equation, and assume that everything would have happened just the same. Perhaps Wynne would have gotten burned for some other goal - perhaps not.

I fully expected to see Wynne in the second half, however Carver had no choice but to take Dichio out.

I will say this though:

I think it is absolute nonsense that a team has to waste a substitution, to take out a player who was injured on a RED CARDED PLAY.

You're basically punishing the injured player's team, for the reckless actions of the carded player. How does that make sense?

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
08-18-2008, 04:02 PM
Thursday-Sunday is more than enough, I've actually been overseas before for extended periods of time.

For the record, saying 'keep pretending you're intelligent' is not calling someone smart. But then again, you just proved you wouldnt know the difference.

I see everyone appreciates your brand of charm as much as I do.

- Scott

Hitcho
08-18-2008, 04:02 PM
I'm not blaming Carver for not starting him if he was tired or had jet lag. But do we know if that is the reason.?

Carver also has a policy to use the same players after a win. In the past he has used the policy that after an international match the palyer has to earn his spot back on the starting 11. Was this the case yestewrday?

I'm not sure and I'm only asking if anyone heard anything??

I've not heard anything, and you can't expect Carver (or any coach) to explain every call they make. I'm not saying you are, but the point is as fans we want to know everything, every call that was made about our team, but a lot of the time we just have to sit back and trust the coach. If Carver thought Wynne was the best pick, he'd have started him. He didn't, and he hasn't come out and explained why, nor should he have to unless he feels he wants to.

TFC-Tyler
08-18-2008, 04:03 PM
I think it is absolute nonsense that a team has to waste a substitution, to take out a player who was injured on a RED CARDED PLAY.

You're basically punishing the injured player's team, for the reckless actions of the carded player. How does that make sense?
Completely agree.

TFC-Tyler
08-18-2008, 04:04 PM
I see everyone appreciates your brand of charm as much as I do.

- Scott
I post here merely to charm afterall?

Ahh, I remember now. You're the one who revived a dead argument to post about how pointless arguing is, and then scurried away when questioned. Holding a grudge making you feel relevant?

Hitcho
08-18-2008, 04:08 PM
When I flew from Malaysia it took maybe a day at the most.

And who even mentioned time zones? Not sure who you're referring to there.

This is spurious. Jet lag affects everyone differently. And it's one thing being able to go about your daily life or go to the pub after a long flight, it's totally another to play professional level sport (in Summer temperatures) and be at the level required not to screw up. There's a world of difference between going to an office with jet lag and not letting Angel get past you when you've got jet lag, so how long it takes us to recover is utterly irrelevant.

Besides which, he was away for weeks. Even assuming he didn;t a rest after the Olympics, he had to get over jet lag and then get in some useful practice sessions with the team after being away for a while. We were playing 4-2-3-1 when he left, and 4-4-2 when he came back. I can't believe this is even in issue, it's pretty clear there's a good chance he wasn't ready for a number of reasons. So, the sensible thing is to start him on the bench.

Shakes McQueen
08-18-2008, 04:13 PM
I post here merely to charm afterall?

Ahh, I remember now. You're the one who revived a dead argument to post about how pointless arguing is, and then scurried away when questioned. Holding a grudge making you feel relevant?

Questioned? You slapped together another fine package of passive aggressive insults and falsehoods, which I chose not to respond to. Nothing else to say.

I don't trouble myself with staying relevant to people like yourself.

:topic:

- Scott

TFC-Tyler
08-18-2008, 04:17 PM
This is spurious. Jet lag affects everyone differently. And it's one thing being able to go about your daily life or go to the pub after a long flight, it's totally another to play professional level sport (in Summer temperatures) and be at the level required not to screw up. There's a world of difference between going to an office with jet lag and not letting Angel get past you when you've got jet lag, so how long it takes us to recover is utterly irrelevant.

Besides which, he was away for weeks. Even assuming he didn;t a rest after the Olympics, he had to get over jet lag and then get in some useful practice sessions with the team after being away for a while. We were playing 4-2-3-1 when he left, and 4-4-2 when he came back. I can't believe this is even in issue, it's pretty clear there's a good chance he wasn't ready for a number of reasons. So, the sensible thing is to start him on the bench.
I never said it didnt effect us all differently, and I certainly didnt head to the pub. (Ironically enough, I played intramural soccer two days later heh, not comparing it to MLS though before some dumbass jumps at my throat). Fact is, when you're a professional athlete you are held to a different standard than a normal person working an office job. We had been playing 4-4-2 nearly the whole start of the season, he is no stranger to it. Once again, I never said I was upset at him for not starting. I blame Carver more than him, for not playing him when he was on the bench, and if he wasnt ready for putting him on the bench and making him travel to New York knowing he wouldnt play.

TFC-Tyler
08-18-2008, 04:20 PM
Questioned? You slapped together another fine package of passive aggressive insults and falsehoods, which I chose not to respond to. Nothing else to say.

I don't trouble myself with staying relevant to people like yourself.

:topic:

- Scott
I pointed out the many holes in your posts, and may have said an insult, so you know how utterly pointless it was. You chose to revive a dead argument, and add yourself into it, and then disappear. Your choice.

trane
08-18-2008, 04:27 PM
That's not right. Remember Wynne run Landycakes down from 10 meters back from the OPPOSITE side of the field at LA?

Maybe. But the brake down was certainly not the fault of either of the outside back, but of one or both of the Center Backs, who were simply way too far up.

Hitcho
08-18-2008, 04:41 PM
I never said it didnt effect us all differently, and I certainly didnt head to the pub. (Ironically enough, I played intramural soccer two days later heh, not comparing it to MLS though before some dumbass jumps at my throat). Fact is, when you're a professional athlete you are held to a different standard than a normal person working an office job. We had been playing 4-4-2 nearly the whole start of the season, he is no stranger to it. Once again, I never said I was upset at him for not starting. I blame Carver more than him, for not playing him when he was on the bench, and if he wasnt ready for putting him on the bench and making him travel to New York knowing he wouldnt play.

I get where you;re coming from, and I certainly don;t mean to go for tyour throat or anything, but the whole poijnt of the bench is 1. replacements for tired/injured players and 2. for guys who are not ready to start a game but can play some part. Clearly JC though Wynne was in the latter ctaegory, based on his assessment in training. You can't bite JC in the ass for that unless you know all the facts, which we don't. And to say he "might" have changed the game is ludicrously spurious. He might have given away a penalty, he might have been sent off. You can't base anything on that kind of argument.

giambac
08-18-2008, 05:22 PM
Whenever i fly to and from Asia... It takes me 2-3 days to get over the Jet lag... BTW England 6 hour flight China 16-18 hour flight... Someone doesn't understand time zones... Or experienced Jet Lag ever... Not saying its the fault of the jet lag since he apparently came back Thursday but it does take awhile to get over it...

I've been to China, Brazil and europe. I've been in the airplane for up to 18 hours.

The next day I showed up for work. ;)

I wish I could have called in with jet lags for 4 days (Thurs to sunday) after my long flights.;)

giambac
08-18-2008, 05:34 PM
Wynne was going to be brought in imminently when Dichio got injured, costing us our last sub. I think it was a reasonable decision, rewarding Attakora for a good effort last week while not putting Wynne in for the full 90 while recovering from jet lag and a crazy week in China.

Okay so what your saying is that Wynne had jet lag from his China trip.
So let me understand here. He wasn't in proper condition to start, however,

he was okay to practice on Friday and saturday, he was okay to bring along to New York and dress, he was okay to take part in the pre game practice but to tired to start.

Everyone is saying that he would of come in the 2nd half if Dichio didn't get hurt? So he has jet lag to start the game and then what all of a sudden he will turn on a switch and be okay to go in the 2nd half. the jet lag disappers at 6:00 pm????

Sorry, I can't buy that argument.:(

Shakes McQueen
08-18-2008, 05:45 PM
Okay so what your saying is that Wynne had jet lag from his China trip.
So let me understand here. He wasn't in proper condition to start, however,

he was okay to practice on Friday and saturday, he was okay to bring along to New York and dress, he was okay to take part in the pre game practice but to tired to start.

Everyone is saying that he would of come in the 2nd half if Dichio didn't get hurt? So he has jet lag to start the game and then what all of a sudden he will turn on a switch and be okay to go in the 2nd half. the jet lag disappers at 6:00 pm????

Sorry, I can't buy that argument.:(

My guess is the jet lag was only one of many reasons why Carver didn't want Wynne in for 90 minutes.

Attakora played well against Colorado, and got the club their first road in in a bloody fortnight with a mostly developmental roster. And to be fair, Attakora played pretty well against New York too. It was the combination of James and Velez that cost us both goals.

Sure, Wynne might have been able to chase Magee down in that situation, but as others have said, inserting a new player into the equation, changes the equation. That play may have never happened. Wynne might have cost us a penalty. The stadium might have collapsed in on both teams. Who knows.

Hindsight is always nice. I don't begrudge Carver for not starting Wynne.

- Scott

Whoop
08-19-2008, 12:33 AM
I'm sure he didn't play because he just came back from China.
If he wasn't suited up to play, it's probably from the days of jetlag.
There would be no reason not to start him, despite what some people think Carver would do.

I hope that's not what you're fishing for.

That's the explanation I heard... ;)

Sonny Cheeba
08-19-2008, 12:47 AM
the point of the thread is a useless hypothetical.

+1 H Bomb

Phil
08-19-2008, 07:11 AM
Please, lets leave personal insults out of this. :D