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Ossington Mental Youth
08-11-2008, 09:36 PM
http://www.globesports.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080811.wsptsurvey11/GSStory/GlobeSportsFootball/home


Green said he didn't know whether it was possible to paint the field with football lines that could be removed from the artificial turf for soccer games.
"That's a great question that would need to be answered in short order," Green said. "How serious the Argos are, we don't know. If they're surveying their season-ticket holders, that would suggest they're pretty serious. But there are certain things about the stadium that are pretty important to maintain."
MLSE president and chief executive officer Richard Peddie said no firm decision has been made whether to invest in expanding BMO Field. And while the decision whether to welcome the Argos as tenants would be left up to the city, he said, MLSE is happy right now being the sole professional sports tenant.
"Candidly, we like being in a soccer-specific stadium and would worry about any changes that would affect the soccerness, the intimacy and the sightlines," Peddie said. "But to speculate what our position would be is premature."



Shouldnt even be a consideration.
Keep the fuck out Argos.

Roogsy
08-11-2008, 09:39 PM
On more happy news (for some), Roogsy shoots his brains out.

James17930
08-11-2008, 09:42 PM
Well, at least we know fully where MLSE stand on this. They don't want it. So we have to concentrate all our protest efforts on city officials.

Ossington Mental Youth
08-11-2008, 09:43 PM
I honestly dont know what id do if they moved in.
Well.
I would protest.
and id heavily debate not reknewing my season tickets.
I cant help but feel thats not nearly enough as theyd just sell my tickets to some asshole that doesnt care...

Kickit09
08-11-2008, 09:43 PM
i think its time to go all out on the "stay the fuck out BMO" campaign. :taz:

RPB_Brantford_08
08-11-2008, 09:44 PM
Reading the Argos web page their offices are at 333 king street west in toronto, is that far from shoeless joes?maybe the regulars could protest down there? Are the argos just doing this for the attention? they seem to have taken a backseat in the TO sports pages since TFC arrived. this may all about nothing at the end of the day.

Kickit09
08-11-2008, 09:47 PM
i think we should start going to argo's games in TFC red with "stay out of BMO field" signs.

Roogsy
08-11-2008, 09:47 PM
I can't stand that it's the "lines on the field" that have been made the issue in this debate. IT ISN'T THE LINES ON THE FIELD! It's the fact that we won't get grass. And the fact that what was supposed to be the shrine to soccer in Canada will now be run as a multi-purpose facility and ruined until the day the Argos realize "Hey...we didn't like Skydome, now we don't like BMO, let's screw somebody else!" and move on to another project.

I am floored that the oldest professional sports team in North America can't get their act together and have had a stadium of their own by now. What does this say about them and the league?

twistedchinaman
08-11-2008, 09:47 PM
On more happy news (for some), Roogsy shoots his brains out.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

alexintoronto
08-11-2008, 09:49 PM
Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. - Santayana.

-------------------------------------------------

On November 28, 54,741 fans braved a frigid rainstorm. The hometown team was no match for the Eskimos, who captured their fifth consecutive championship 32-16. It was the last time the Canadian football championship would be contested at Exhibition Stadium, and the awful weather in Toronto's showcase sporting event may have been the deciding factor in the city and province's choice to finally build their domed stadium.

http://www.ballparktour.com/Former_Toronto.html (http://www.ballparktour.com/Former_Toronto.html)

Roogsy
08-11-2008, 09:53 PM
Well played Alex...gawd...when will the Argos learn?!?!

Hey we want to play indoor!

Hey outdoor has better atmosphere!

Then it will be:

Hey, it snowed on us, we want to play indoor again!

Flipityflu
08-11-2008, 09:57 PM
so, whats the next phase of the plan of protest?

reggie
08-11-2008, 10:01 PM
nevermind the fucking lines on the field,if the argos come in we will never get grass on that field,and we will be stuck signing oldies from some second div....

Ossington Mental Youth
08-11-2008, 10:03 PM
and we will be sitting 20 feet back from the net to accommodate the end zone

twistedchinaman
08-11-2008, 10:06 PM
and we will be sitting 20 feet back from the net to accommodate the end zone

Which of course will blow super monkey chunks.

How much louder do we need to be before the fucking Argos can hear their own fucking hypocrisy? :banghead:

Kevvv
08-11-2008, 10:10 PM
One other bit of history that wouldn't repeat if the Argos move to BMO


54,741 fans

twistedchinaman
08-11-2008, 10:12 PM
^ Burn!

Kickit09
08-11-2008, 10:12 PM
so, whats the next phase of the plan of protest?


i think we should start going to argo's games in TFC red with "stay out of BMO field" signs.

im serious

reggie
08-11-2008, 10:13 PM
i will never again spend a penny on the fucoes and there 2 bush league owners that walked from the york u deal for a better deal at skydome that we built for 600mil back in
85 and that dick, rogers got it for 25mil.
there should be an inquiry about that....

TFC+Argos4Life
08-11-2008, 10:16 PM
Haha, as soon as I read the column I knew you guys would probably already be talking about it here.

Again, no one with the city or MLSE is saying outright that they don't want the move to happen, only that they protect the soccer experience. Richard Peddie especially seems open to a deal, as long as it preserves the intimacy.

Finally, it seems everyone's waiting to see if the finances work out. Yes, it appears that MLSE have a pretty good stranglehold on stadium revenue for their lease, but leases don't last forever. Sooner or later, they get renegotiated. If the city doesn't like the way they play ball, we could see the Argos becoming the stadium operators someday. I think this would encourage MLSE to play nice.

Can't wait to see what happens.

twistedchinaman
08-11-2008, 10:18 PM
Movable stands don't come cheap, and the city isn't exactly awash with money. Do you really think that Ted Rogers would pay for it?

Roogsy
08-11-2008, 10:21 PM
Not Mr Rogers....it's the owners of the Argos, some guy named Cinnamon ( I know I spelled it wrong...I want to spell it that way!) and his partner, the one everyone calls "the other guy". They want to move the Argos after they screwed York U out of a deal and ran back to Skydome only to want to bully themselves into BMO Field just a few months later.

andyc
08-11-2008, 10:23 PM
Mr. Green is a member here... Stuart Wolves Lover or something like that.... :D I'm sure that he will comment shortly...

My view is that things are sliding slowly into a big fucking mess. No pointyball lines on our field. No expansion to lose the SSS feel. We want grass!

LucaGol
08-11-2008, 10:27 PM
Haha, as soon as I read the column I knew you guys would probably already be talking about it here.

Again, no one with the city or MLSE is saying outright that they don't want the move to happen, only that they protect the soccer experience. Richard Peddie especially seems open to a deal, as long as it preserves the intimacy.

Finally, it seems everyone's waiting to see if the finances work out. Yes, it appears that MLSE have a pretty good stranglehold on stadium revenue for their lease, but leases don't last forever. Sooner or later, they get renegotiated. If the city doesn't like the way they play ball, we could see the Argos becoming the stadium operators someday. I think this would encourage MLSE to play nice.

Can't wait to see what happens.

What is your purpose in life?

Why the hell do you care so much about this issue?

sully
08-11-2008, 10:29 PM
Yes, it appears that MLSE have a pretty good stranglehold on stadium revenue for their lease, but leases don't last forever. Sooner or later, they get renegotiated.


The current lease is for 20 years so I guess there's 18 years left on it..

Ossington Mental Youth
08-11-2008, 10:30 PM
I dont honestly think you can support both teams to the same extent.
I rarely say this but its a black or white issue.

LucaGol
08-11-2008, 10:30 PM
The current lease is for 20 years so I guess there's 18 years left on it..

lol...good the Argos can move to BMO in the year 2024...problem solved

Flipityflu
08-11-2008, 10:32 PM
I dont honestly think you can support both teams to the same extent.
I rarely say this but its a black or white issue.


yep. you either want to see pure footy on real grass, or not

reggie
08-11-2008, 10:34 PM
the argos have a stadium,its a indoor outdoor type and it has bigger scoreboard so they can have more of that fake crowd noise,just stay there until nfl comes and then move to ottawa.....

stretchthetruth
08-11-2008, 10:38 PM
Haha, as soon as I read the column I knew you guys would probably already be talking about it here.

Again, no one with the city or MLSE is saying outright that they don't want the move to happen, only that they protect the soccer experience. Richard Peddie especially seems open to a deal, as long as it preserves the intimacy.

Finally, it seems everyone's waiting to see if the finances work out. Yes, it appears that MLSE have a pretty good stranglehold on stadium revenue for their lease, but leases don't last forever. Sooner or later, they get renegotiated. If the city doesn't like the way they play ball, we could see the Argos becoming the stadium operators someday. I think this would encourage MLSE to play nice.

Can't wait to see what happens.

uhhh yeah thanks, Benedict...

Blizzard
08-11-2008, 10:41 PM
nevermind the fucking lines on the field,if the argos come in we will never get grass on that field,and we will be stuck signing oldies from some second div....

Exactly. Washable FieldTurf is not the issue (it's possible witness Skydome). Movable endzone seating is not the issue (we know that is possible).

The true issue is grass! With the Argos in BMO, we will be stuck with an artificial surface of one type or another forever!

We'd have Huckerby now if we were on a grass field!

TFC+Argos4Life
08-11-2008, 10:45 PM
What is your purpose in life?

Why the hell do you care so much about this issue?

Let me guess, you were one of those catty girls in high school, right? Man, usually i toss a few insults into my posts to get under certain posters' skin, but I honestly can't see anything potentially upsetting in my previous post.

I care because the issue involves the futures of two of my favourite sports teams.

My purpose in life? You're quite dramatic, aren't you? As per your question, I don't have to figure it out until someone asks me in front of some pearly gates... so for now I'm procrastinating. Since you've got it all figured out, what the hell is YOUR purpose in life?

andyc
08-11-2008, 11:02 PM
Finally, it seems everyone's waiting to see if the finances work out. Yes, it appears that MLSE have a pretty good stranglehold on stadium revenue for their lease, but leases don't last forever. Sooner or later, they get renegotiated. If the city doesn't like the way they play ball, we could see the Argos becoming the stadium operators someday. I think this would encourage MLSE to play nice.

Can't wait to see what happens.

Yeah cos the Argos management have soooo much experience running their own stadium.... :banghead:

James Oliphant
08-11-2008, 11:09 PM
Well played Alex...gawd...when will the Argos learn?!?!

Hey we want to play indoor!

Hey outdoor has better atmosphere!

Then it will be:

Hey, it snowed on us, we want to play indoor again!

Didn't help that Exhibition was:
a) a wind tunnel
b) home to the worst playing surface in the history of sport. Essentially, green cement.

Toronto Ruffrider
08-11-2008, 11:24 PM
Didn't help that Exhibition was:
a) a wind tunnel
b) home to the worst playing surface in the history of sport. Essentially, green cement.

Even worse than Lamport's old turf? That stuff was torn up green cement.

twistedchinaman
08-11-2008, 11:27 PM
How was Exhibition a wind tunnel, pray tell?

Oblio2
08-11-2008, 11:28 PM
If the Argoooooos come, I will cancel my season tickets and send my jersey to goodwill.

BC101
08-11-2008, 11:30 PM
If the Argoooooos come, I will cancel my season tickets and send my jersey to goodwill.

What i'd do is keep the ticket sell it to scalpers who sell it to casuals(If they'd even bother) and use said money to go on away trips.... Fuck watching footy with american throw ball lines on the pitch. They say it can be washed off but one only need view the NER match over the weekend against Chicago to see what happens.

Oblio2
08-11-2008, 11:41 PM
What i'd do is keep the ticket sell it to scalpers who sell it to casuals(If they'd even bother) and use said money to go on away trips.... Fuck watching footy with american throw ball lines on the pitch. They say it can be washed off but one only need view the NER match over the weekend against Chicago to see what happens.

Better Idea than mine.....

James Oliphant
08-11-2008, 11:52 PM
How was Exhibition a wind tunnel, pray tell?

http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/past/ex3.jpg

See the gap between the 3rd base stands and the left field grandstand? That's the west end of the stadium...like, directly west.

Prevailing winds, you know. ;)

Blizzard
08-11-2008, 11:56 PM
What i'd do is keep the ticket sell it to scalpers who sell it to casuals(If they'd even bother) and use said money to go on away trips.... Fuck watching footy with american throw ball lines on the pitch. They say it can be washed off but one only need view the NER match over the weekend against Chicago to see what happens.

Just look at the Skydome turf during a Jays game. Can you see the football lines? Look at the turf during an Argos game. Can you see the baseball lines?

They use the same turf! The lines can be washed reasonably well as you can see here. The football lines are still visible though.

http://www.baseballpilgrimages.com/american/skydome.jpg (http://www.baseballpilgrimages.com/american/skydome.jpg)

The real problem is that if the Argos ever move in, say good-bye to any dream of natural grass!

That is the biggest problem from my point of view!

B

Roogsy
08-11-2008, 11:59 PM
Just look at the Skydome turf during a Jays game. Can you see the football lines? Look at the turf during an Argos game. Can you see the baseball lines?

They use the same turf! The lines can be washed reasonably well as you can see here. The football lines are still visible though.



The real problem is that if the Argos ever move in, say good-bye to any dream of natural grass!

That is the biggest problem from my point of view!

B

Exactly.

If we rest our case on "lines"...for a 30million upgrade I am sure the Argos will find a way to fix that, especially considering the Jays play something like 90 games at home and TFC will only play 16-20.

The REAL issue is that we won't get grass and say goodbye to National team games and any real star players playing for us.

BC101
08-12-2008, 12:00 AM
Just look at the Skydome turf during a Jays game. Can you see the football lines? Look at the turf during an Argos game. Can you see the baseball lines?

They use the same turf! The lines can be washed reasonably well as you can see here. The football lines are still visible though.

http://www.baseballpilgrimages.com/american/skydome.jpg (http://www.baseballpilgrimages.com/american/skydome.jpg)

The real problem is that if the Argos ever move in, say good-bye to any dream of natural grass!

That is the biggest problem from my point of view!

B

I rather meant that say Argos had a game Sunday but TFC a game Saturday... The ground staff might be lazy and pain the running ball lines on Friday because they dont' wanna stay late Saturday thus forcing us to see the lines.. Also the "Moveable stand" is a issue for me. For one reason or another. Although the real grass thing is a point well said.

Roogsy
08-12-2008, 12:03 AM
If MLSE was serious about this issue, they would press for grass at BMO Field and kill the Argos moving in forever that way.

But they won't. They too are hedging.

BC101
08-12-2008, 12:06 AM
blah I give up on this issue... If we decide to do something about it i'll help in whatever way I can. But all these topics and stuff hurting my head now.

Whoop
08-12-2008, 12:17 AM
Even though that turf is miles ahead of what they used to have at the SkyDome, it is still butt ugly.


Just look at the Skydome turf during a Jays game. Can you see the football lines? Look at the turf during an Argos game. Can you see the baseball lines?

They use the same turf! The lines can be washed reasonably well as you can see here. The football lines are still visible though.

http://www.baseballpilgrimages.com/american/skydome.jpg (http://www.baseballpilgrimages.com/american/skydome.jpg)

The real problem is that if the Argos ever move in, say good-bye to any dream of natural grass!

That is the biggest problem from my point of view!

B

Cashcleaner
08-12-2008, 01:03 AM
I dont honestly think you can support both teams to the same extent.
I rarely say this but its a black or white issue.

Not at all. I started a thread at Bigsoccer highlighting the main points of contention and most the people who reponded didn't really mind the prospect of the Argos coming to BMO Field, but did make it clear that they wanted the soccer atmosphere to remain the same as it is now.


Obviously, there's a lot of debate going on here and elsewhere about the possibility of the Toronto Argonauts (CFL football) playing at BMO Field. There seems to be a bit of confusion as to what that will all entail, but below are some quick bullet points:

1) There will be no gridiron lines permenantly stitched or painted unto the playing surfaceaccording to Marc Petitpas. As per MLSE's contract with the city of Toronto (the venue owners) the playing surface and associated facilties must meet the standards of MLS and TFC and that soccer takes precedence over any other sport. People seem to be getting up in arms over this, but there really is no need. We won't see CFL gridlines at TFC matches because the contract MLSE has with the city ensures it - this is coming from the director of operations as BMO Field.

2) Now, although the playing surface will remain the same for TFC matches (uncluttered with gridlines), it does seem likely that we'll be stuck with Fieldturf indefinitely. Personally, I always believed we'd never have grass at BMO Field, but with the CFL playing at the stadium, there would be no choice to but keep the artificial surface. Unfortuantely that could keep high-profile players from signing with the club, less CSA matches (the national teams really don't like playing on turf), and possibly less impressive clubs brought over for exhibition matches.

3) The South and/or North stands would have to move to accomodate the size of a CFL field. I'm not sure how they would be able to work it out because the North stands are all concrete and the South stands have the TFC store and concessions. The cost would probably be very high to demolish and reconstruct the grounds to fit a CFL field.

4) BMO Field would have to expand seating to meet the requirements set down by the CFL for regular season matches. I believe the seating requirement is around 30,000 or so.

There's other details involved as well, but the question posed is simple:

Argos at BMO Field: Okay, not okay, or does it not matter to you?Poll results were:


Against it - BMO Field should stay soccer specific. 255 votes

For it - TFC should share the facility with the Argonauts. 34 votes

No opinion - It just doesn't matter that much to me. 25 votes
Like I said, according to quite a few responses most people are okay with the idea of groundsharing, as long as it doesn't affect their view, distance from the pitch, and other considerations. Many also remarked that they would be well against the proposal if it negatively impacted their enjoyment of the game, which I believe should be the main argument. The one point that many agree on is that we should error on the side of caution and try to keep the Argos out because their presence would undoubtably kill any chance of a natural pitch.

My point is that while the Supporter Groups seem pretty much in agreement over the issue, it really isn't as black and white as many think. Also, I should mention that out of a poll that had 314 respondents (quite a sizable number for an internet forum), 59 were either for groundsharing or had no opinion on the matter.

Roogsy
08-12-2008, 01:13 AM
Cash, I don't understand your post. You say 59 were in favour of groundsharing or had no opinion (which I dont believe to be the equivalent of being in favour of the issue, they are probably just tired of dealing with this issue and want it over with) but even if you include those 24, you still come up with 18.7% in favour or of no opinion. So that means 81.3% are against the Argos move? Isn't that pretty decisive? And yet you state that "most" didn't mind the prospect of the Argos coming to BMO Field...it seems a little contradictory.

Cashcleaner
08-12-2008, 01:41 AM
I'll break it down for you, Roogsy.

Obviously the poll numbers have most people agreeing that BMO Field should say soccer specific but there are a few posts in which people perfer BMO staying soccer-specific with the aforementioned caveats.

Here are a few examples:


I just don't get a blue team playing in a stadium full of red seats. But if they can make it work so that TFC benefits - why not?
I do like the idea of outdoor CFL football on the Ex grounds - and I think this can be done to the advantage of both TFC and the Argos. Protest to ensure this happens if anything is done.


Forgive me if it's been mentioned, but if the Argonauts move into BMO, wouldn't they have to add more seats to the stadium (to satisfy the CFL)? If the crowd's loud at 20k, wouldn't it be even louder at 25k (or even 30k)? Considering the great support yall have up there, yall could easily fill the stadium at 30k seats and make a tough place to play even tougher.

As long as the powers that be stick to the idea that soccer comes first, I don't see any problem with letting the Argonauts move in. Either way, adding a roof would be great - it keeps the noise in and makes for a perfect soccer environment and home advantage.

Unfortunately I think the thread got locked after our old friend Roc Le Roc showed up, but the point is that the issue isn't all that cut-and-dry. However, the one consistent remark that keeps popping up in those sort of thread is simply: "Who will pay for all this?!". Maybe that in itself should be a good argument against the move as well?

CretanBull
08-12-2008, 01:52 AM
Well, at least we know fully where MLSE stand on this. They don't want it. So we have to concentrate all our protest efforts on city officials.

Huh? Did we read the same article? City officials have made their position clear "It's a soccer-specific stadium — that's how it was built and that's what it was intended for...The soccer experience is what's paramount there and can't be hampered by anything. The seats have to stay where they are when it comes to soccer with seats close to the field and there can't be any other lines on the field. Football brings with it a whole other set of lines."

MLSE won't commit to anything at all other than to say that they are happy now, "but to speculate what our position would be is premature."

Let me tell you what MLSE's position is...if they can get the Argos to pay to have the stadium expanded which will allow MLSE to sell an additional 10,000 tickets per game AND can blame it on the city to protect themselves from a backlash from the supporter's groups then they're all for it.

Cashcleaner
08-12-2008, 01:59 AM
^ And I have a bad feeling that's what is being done now, Cretan.

And people used to call me a cynic!

Keystone FC
08-12-2008, 03:05 AM
Huh? Did we read the same article? City officials have made their position clear "It's a soccer-specific stadium — that's how it was built and that's what it was intended for...The soccer experience is what's paramount there and can't be hampered by anything. The seats have to stay where they are when it comes to soccer with seats close to the field and there can't be any other lines on the field. Football brings with it a whole other set of lines."

MLSE won't commit to anything at all other than to say that they are happy now, "but to speculate what our position would be is premature."

Let me tell you what MLSE's position is...if they can get the Argos to pay to have the stadium expanded which will allow MLSE to sell an additional 10,000 tickets per game AND can blame it on the city to protect themselves from a backlash from the supporter's groups then they're all for it.


Let me play the devils advocate and say the City WANTS the Argos in BMO. Think of it, the City OWNS BMO and any money generated there goes back to the city. Well, with the Argos in Rogers the city gets nothing except a few tickets for parking and PI's. If the Argos move into BMO then not only are they getting money from TFC but also from the Argos which would leave Rogers available for the NFL which would bring money into the city by way of tourist dollars.

Cashcleaner
08-12-2008, 03:58 AM
^ I'm sure the city would also like the Argos in BMO Field. Like you said, they also get a cut of revenues and it would help get the Bills moved into Rogers Centre.

Stugatzo
08-12-2008, 05:33 AM
Mr. Green is a member here... Stuart Wolves Lover or something like that.... :D I'm sure that he will comment shortly...

My view is that things are sliding slowly into a big fucking mess. No pointyball lines on our field. No expansion to lose the SSS feel. We want grass!

...or something like that.
My comments are in the article and on this board in a billion places.

King Tut
08-12-2008, 06:05 AM
.....

alexintoronto
08-12-2008, 06:37 AM
FYI: It can't be a soccer specific stadium AND have the Argos as tenants. It doesn't seem like everyone out there gets that.

ensco
08-12-2008, 06:39 AM
Garber comes to the ASG and takes a clear stand on this, but Peddie can't?

Peddie is willing to sell TFC down the river here. He's just figuring out what he can get for it.

MLSE makes an estimated $2-5 million from TFC and $80 million from the Leafs/Raptors/ACC complex. Any guesses as to what he actually cares about?

Mayor Miller is our only hope. He's got tickets and clearly loves the team, so there's a decent chance he gets it.

jloome
08-12-2008, 07:24 AM
I think y'all are awesome people and I spend a lot of time on here because I'm a total diehard. I think that's obvious. But as someone who hasn't actually even visited Toronto in three or four years, I can tell you that objectively, I think the core of season ticket holding hardcore soccer fans will be the few left a decade from now if the argos move in there.

It's just an opinion. But TFC is selling the real experience of football, the way it has been played (minus grass) and hooked fans around the world for decades. If you put the argos in there, you put lines on the field in there and you practically guarantee some type of field turf forever.

If MLSE thinks they're going to sell 14,000 season tickets in that environment, they haven't been looking around North America lately. Maybe Miller gets that, maybe he'll be a typical politican and pick whatever side he thinks best benefits his career. But until then, you guys need to make a hell of a lot more noise out there; you're going to have the sports media heavily set against you, because they hate football, for the most part. You'll have lots of residents set against you, because the "taxpayer funded" card will be paid, even though MLSE helped pay for it.

I'd also throw another wild card in there, which is that for the relative price compared to the sudden and instant gain in value in the team from its success, if this ever happened I can see MLSE building an SSS elsewhere in the city; if Saputo can get it done and BMO only cost, what, $30 million, it doesn't seem that far fetched.

My two cents, but were I lucky enough to be in your boat and able to watch live everywhere, it would be wearing a "No Argos" shirt every week and be accompanied by weekly letters to anyone who'll listen on why this could ruin TFC, one of the most significant professional sports success stories in this nation's history.

CoachGT
08-12-2008, 07:32 AM
I wondered about that myself. Whether the move by the Argos might precipitate MLSE to consider building a new soccer specific stadium, with grass, so that they would be sole owners. The only issue is location - it doesn't get any better than where BMO is situated. Mass transit at the ready, central to the city. Not like the 'burbs where many of the US teams have built their stadiums.

Perhaps something like the Denver complex (24 exterior pitches) is due here in the city, or even a smaller version - something along the size of the Rochester complex (10 outdoor plus 3 indoor), but with a proper stadium in addition to the indoor facilities.

rocker
08-12-2008, 07:35 AM
Yes, it appears that MLSE have a pretty good stranglehold on stadium revenue for their lease, but leases don't last forever.

Then the Argos will have to wait 20 years to get into BMO, since the current management agreement is that long ;)

Fort York Redcoat
08-12-2008, 07:36 AM
The Argos are surveying their STH. There were those who called us chicken little's for trying to be preventative and now this problem is more a reality. This is the time when most will do nothing and say it was inevitable when it happens. We have a place of our own. Let's make sure the people involved know what it means to us.

Steve
08-12-2008, 07:49 AM
Huh? Did we read the same article? City officials have made their position clear "It's a soccer-specific stadium — that's how it was built and that's what it was intended for...The soccer experience is what's paramount there and can't be hampered by anything. The seats have to stay where they are when it comes to soccer with seats close to the field and there can't be any other lines on the field. Football brings with it a whole other set of lines."

MLSE won't commit to anything at all other than to say that they are happy now, "but to speculate what our position would be is premature."

Let me tell you what MLSE's position is...if they can get the Argos to pay to have the stadium expanded which will allow MLSE to sell an additional 10,000 tickets per game AND can blame it on the city to protect themselves from a backlash from the supporter's groups then they're all for it.

What? Do you not speak businessese or something? Let me break it down for you:



And while the decision whether to welcome the Argos as tenants would be left up to the city, he said, MLSE is happy right now being the sole professional sports tenant.
"Candidly, we like being in a soccer-specific stadium and would worry about any changes that would affect the soccerness, the intimacy and the sightlines," Peddie said. "But to speculate what our position would be is premature."


He is saying "because of our business deal with the city of Toronto, we're not allowed to publicly state what we actually want in this deal, since we have no official say and any negativity expressed now would strain our working relationship; however, off the record, we REALLY don't want them here"

Trust me, Peddie does not want the argos to invade any more than you people do. You all say how MLSE is greedy, good at making money, but THIS TIME they're wrong? Sure, they're greedy. Yes, they are damned good at making money. That being said, THEY KNOW FULL WELL that the fans don't want the ARGOs to move in. They know they would risk killing their cash cow to allow it. Believe me, they are fighting this out of the public eye. I understand Stuart Green (who I believe posts on this forum) will say publicly that the city doesn't want it, but if you look at the financial concerns, it isn't hard to guess that the city would want it more than MLSE would.

denime
08-12-2008, 07:55 AM
I wondered about that myself. Whether the move by the Argos might precipitate MLSE to consider building a new soccer specific stadium, with grass, so that they would be sole owners. The only issue is location - it doesn't get any better than where BMO is situated. Mass transit at the ready, central to the city. Not like the 'burbs where many of the US teams have built their stadiums.

Perhaps something like the Denver complex (24 exterior pitches) is due here in the city, or even a smaller version - something along the size of the Rochester complex (10 outdoor plus 3 indoor), but with a proper stadium in addition to the indoor facilities.

Downsview location would be the best solution in case MLSE decide to move,it's not 'burbs it is more uptown so to say.Close to Downsview Subway,Go bus station,401,Allen Rd.etc.Enough space to build soccer specific complex with several soccer fields.
There is already Hangar indoor facilty and 2 brand new turf soccer outdoor fields just beside the Hangar.
Looking long term for soccer in GTA and Canada that would be the best move.
I know it might not be perfect for some individuals that prefer to get drunk before the game,but knowing us we would find new bars and restaurants in the neighborhood very fast.;)

rocker
08-12-2008, 08:01 AM
Downsview location would be the best solution in case MLSE decide to move,it's not 'burbs it is more uptown so to say.Close to Downsview Subway,Go bus station,401,Allen Rd.etc.Enough space to build soccer specific complex with several soccer fields.
There is already Hangar indoor facilty and 2 brand new turf soccer outdoor fields just beside the Hangar.
Looking long term for soccer in GTA and Canada that would be the best move.
I know it might not be perfect for some individuals that prefer to get drunk before the game,but knowing us we would find new bars and restaurants in the neighborhood very fast.;)

and we could watch propane explosions there too......

i think the Ex is the only site that works. i think you'd kill a lot of the suburban interest because the Go Train has proven to be a huge part of transport to games.

redcard
08-12-2008, 08:02 AM
There are many questions than answers of course...but the main question, will the argos pay for the expansion. I dont think so. And as more time passes on the costs increase...

tfcleeds
08-12-2008, 08:38 AM
Now some Argo fans are planning a protest in front of Rogers Centre on Thursday before the Bills preseason game. They only expect around 30 people to be involved, but the point is, its getting plenty of media attention.

I think now is the time for us to really step things up in terms of OUR protest to keep BMO soccer-specific. I know Jack has already got the ball rolling on the members only forum, but I think this Argos protest just increases the urgency on our part to get our
message noticed in a big way. 30 Argos fans can get an article about them in Toronto newspapers - imagine what 500 RPBs could do.

Roogsy
08-12-2008, 08:40 AM
I am still not clear the purpose of this protest by the Argos fans. Are they protesting the Bills coming to Toronto? The price? The move to BMO?

Roogsy
08-12-2008, 08:42 AM
Downsview location would be the best solution in case MLSE decide to move,it's not 'burbs it is more uptown so to say.Close to Downsview Subway,Go bus station,401,Allen Rd.etc.Enough space to build soccer specific complex with several soccer fields.
There is already Hangar indoor facilty and 2 brand new turf soccer outdoor fields just beside the Hangar.
Looking long term for soccer in GTA and Canada that would be the best move.
I know it might not be perfect for some individuals that prefer to get drunk before the game,but knowing us we would find new bars and restaurants in the neighborhood very fast.;)


Downsview location would be fantastic! Lots of space, public transit and the highway.

The only problem is that the highway in that part of the corridor has horrible volume of traffic. But I would be willing to suffer that to let the team control their home moreso than the stupid city.

I used to live in that neighbourhood and it has been revitalized a little, and with a stadium it could be even moreso.

denime
08-12-2008, 08:45 AM
and we could watch propane explosions there too......

i think the Ex is the only site that works. i think you'd kill a lot of the suburban interest because the Go Train has proven to be a huge part of transport to games.

Yeah,you probably right but as long TFC play at Ex(BMO) we will have to live with Turf instead of natural grass.

bgnewf
08-12-2008, 08:45 AM
I think this is a fight we CAN and MUST win. We just need to make sure that as supporters (and I mean ALL supporters in all groups - RPB, U Sector, NEE, Ultras, the whole shebang!) that we focus on the correct way to protest this issue. And I think there are a couple of things we can do:

1) Let The City know in no uncertain terms that we are against this plan. Letter writing, emails, petitions, appearances at hearings and council meetings would help.

2) Let Argo fans know that we are against this plan (Some sort of presence in or outside of Argo home games might be a good idea) and that their sport is not welcome.

3) Continue to be vigilant in correcting any misconceptions or spin about this issue that comes out in the media from CFL apologists like McCown and Toth.

I do agree that the Anti Argo team stuff is not productive and makes us look somewhat childish, but the more I think about what is required to make BMO CFL compliant the more I think that this is not going to go down if we can get through the next year. If we can continue to keep the pressure on until MLSE decides to expand the ground on their terms (for Soccer) I think we are going to be safe. Until that takes place we need to keep up our efforts.

Remember everybody all of the infastructure underneath the south end of the ground would have to be taken down to accommodate the CFL field. The Bogs would have to be demolished and the food concessions would have to be ripped out as is to do something stupid like putting the south end on rails. Blowing up the North end is probably not an option either as well as the Food Building would be impacted.

$50-$60 million extra would be neded to be spent to make BMO ready for the CFL. The Argo's should take that amount of money and go to York and build up there with the university, assuming York will have anything to do with an organization that reneged on a previous arrangement. And can anybody really think that a parsimonious bunch like the owners of the Argo's would be willing to spend cash like this??? I can't see it happening.

We just gotta hold out for the time until MLSE starts expanding the ground. That'll price the Argo's completeley out of the picture.

Roogsy
08-12-2008, 08:47 AM
Downsview is literally 25 minutes by TTC from Union Station. It isn't like it's the boons. And MLSE could build a "complex" kind of like Dick's Sporting Good's Park with more than just the stadium, they could build practice fields and such, including an indoor turf pitch for winter. And they could build it to their own specifications and needs, meaning they could learn from the mistakes of BMO Field. More concessions, more accessibility, natural grass and a roof!

Roogsy
08-12-2008, 08:48 AM
It just boggles the mind that the Argos would be willing to spend that kind of dosh for a stadium when they could spend less than half if they partnered with one of the Universities and build something that is just as cozy with the atmosphere they want.

Mind-boggling.

tfcleeds
08-12-2008, 08:49 AM
I am still not clear the purpose of this protest by the Argos fans. Are they protesting the Bills coming to Toronto? The price? The move to BMO?

Protesting the Bills coming to Toronto. They are wearing T-shirts with the Bills logo crossed out. Rogers Centre staff have apparently told the organizer (obviously an Argos STH) that he will be denied entry to the next Argos game if he goes ahead with the protest on Rogers Centre grounds.

Roogsy
08-12-2008, 08:52 AM
Protesting the Bills coming to Toronto. They are wearing T-shirts with the Bills logo crossed out. Rogers Centre staff have apparently told the organizer (obviously an Argos STH) that he will be denied entry to the next Argos game if he goes ahead with the protest on Rogers Centre grounds.

That's just plain dumb. That is like the theatre production of Cats protesting the opening of Phantom of the Opera. If they want the Bills to stay in Buffalo...they should insist that the Argos stay at the Dome and that way the Bills have no home of their own and it kills it instantly.

Whoop
08-12-2008, 09:00 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Downsview federal land?

And weren't/aren't supposed to be build Canada's largest urban park a la Central Park in that location? At least that's what I remember back about 5-10 years ago?

Downsview is always the "perfect location" yet they've never built anything there. Over the years, there was supposed to be a pointyball stadium built there, a hockey complex, etc.

Roogsy
08-12-2008, 09:04 AM
^All true. But there has never been a project that had the guaranteed success as TFC could have if they built their own stadium there.

At the end though...I'd have to say I'd be upset that WE would have to move to accomodate a franchise that can't plan properly. The Argos should be the ones that should be looking at Downsview, York U or UofT.

tfcleeds
08-12-2008, 09:05 AM
That's just plain dumb. That is like the theatre production of Cats protesting the opening of Phantom of the Opera. If they want the Bills to stay in Buffalo...they should insist that the Argos stay at the Dome and that way the Bills have no home of their own and it kills it instantly.

Well, fair enough, maybe they feel that the Bills coming to Toronto presents a threat to the Argos, but I would hope that we would be a bit smarter in the way we go about our protest than they seem to be doing. And I believe we are doing that (see members thread).

Rogers paid $78 million to bring the Bills series to Toronto, so obviously they don't think too highly of this protest, insignificant though it may be, hence the potential banning threat to the organizer for one game if he goes ahead with it. Although that doesn't reflect too well on Rogers either if you ask me...

boban
08-12-2008, 09:07 AM
I can't stand that it's the "lines on the field" that have been made the issue in this debate. IT ISN'T THE LINES ON THE FIELD! It's the fact that we won't get grass. And the fact that what was supposed to be the shrine to soccer in Canada will now be run as a multi-purpose facility and ruined until the day the Argos realize "Hey...we didn't like Skydome, now we don't like BMO, let's screw somebody else!" and move on to another project.

I am floored that the oldest professional sports team in North America can't get their act together and have had a stadium of their own by now. What does this say about them and the league?
Oh yes it is. Its actually a few issues. Lines being one of them. Ask FC Dallas whose team plays on a grass field with lines on it.

Roogsy
08-12-2008, 09:15 AM
Oh yes it is. Its actually a few issues. Lines being one of them. Ask FC Dallas whose team plays on a grass field with lines on it.

I am saying that is not OUR issue. Any deal to bring the Argos into BMO Field would more than likely address this issue anyways, so supporters making the lines on the field an issue is only painting us into a corner that once the relevant parties fix that issue, then they can say "OK...everything is clear for the Argos to move in". Is that what we want to give up our house for? Lines on the field? So that when they promise no lines on the field we have nothing to fall back on? So in that sense, it isn't about the lines on the field because that is severe undernegotiating.

mclaren
08-12-2008, 09:37 AM
If Argos move in, I will not attend a game again.

alexintoronto
08-12-2008, 10:05 AM
There are so many reasons for them not to move to The Ex.
The weather during their season will suck at The Ex.
Hosting the Grey Cup will mean less than 30,000 when they could have sold out 50,000 +.
They will remain a second class tenant instead of having their own stadium.
A blue team will play in a stadium with red seats.
Ticket prices are sure to go up now that the Argos will be paying rent and there will be limited seats.
Concessions - they're pretty slow at The Ex, are they that slow at SkyDome?
Did I mention weather? Not only for the players but for the fans - freezing rain = lost ticket sales.
Public Transit - SkyDome is perfect for the Subway and Go Trains - The Ex is a pain to get to.
They'll be making new enemies in the city when they ruin the atmosphere of The Ex.
The atmosphere at BMO is so good because of the TFC Supporters, not because of the stadium - moving the Argos into The Ex doesn't automatically mean better atmosphere at football games.

I just hope the season ticket holders have more sense than the management & ownership of the team. There is NO WAY I would want to move to BMO if I was an Argos season ticket holder.

Note: I've decided to start calling it The Ex instead of BMO Field.

Whoop
08-12-2008, 10:07 AM
^^
I like that.

The Ex.

Fort York Redcoat
08-12-2008, 10:10 AM
Firstly this Argos protest getting any play at all will be miraculous since what I'm hearing there will be around 2 dozen people involved. I'm not sure how protesting now is going to stop the Bills coming on Thursday but good sentiment if they keep it up for 7 more games over 5 yrs.

Secondly Roogsy much respect but IMO I wouldn't trust the "no CFL lines" statement if the CFL moved in to our SSS. I don't think mclarens alone.

Roogsy
08-12-2008, 10:13 AM
Probably. My fear is that there will be "ghost" lines. My point is that we shouldn't rest our complaint on the field lines alone but on the soccer experience, grass included. Because the powers that be are going to claim that they "solved" the "lines" problem and proceed with the project and only once the teams start sharing the field will the public realize (and too late) that the problem was never solved. But all the parties (the city, MLSE and the Argos) will continue to insist that it's "not a problem". That is why we have to go beyond the "lines" and make this an issue about it being a complete soccer stadium.

Fort York Redcoat
08-12-2008, 10:14 AM
There are so many reasons for them not to move to The Ex.
The weather during their season will suck at The Ex.
Hosting the Grey Cup will mean less than 30,000 when they could have sold out 50,000 +.
They will remain a second class tenant instead of having their own stadium.
A blue team will play in a stadium with red seats.
Ticket prices are sure to go up now that the Argos will be paying rent and there will be limited seats.
Concessions - they're pretty slow at The Ex, are they that slow at SkyDome?
Did I mention weather? Not only for the players but for the fans - freezing rain = lost ticket sales.
Public Transit - SkyDome is perfect for the Subway and Go Trains - BMO is a pain to get to.
They'll be making new enemies in the city when they ruin the atmosphere of The Ex.
The atmosphere at BMO is so good because of the TFC Supporters, not because of the stadium - moving the Argos into The Ex doesn't automatically mean better atmosphere at football games.

I just hope the season ticket holders have more sense than the management & ownership of the team. There is NO WAY I would want to move to BMO if I was an Argos season ticket holder.

Note: I've decided to start calling it The Ex instead of BMO Field.

Some good points! They built the damn dome to avoid the weather to get fairweather fans (ha ha) to the games. But the Grey cup and play off games would be in Rogers Centre like the Olympic Stadium for max capacity. I don't think transport would be a deciding factor but I hope you're right.

Heathen
08-12-2008, 10:15 AM
I've made this point previously but believe me if you start talking about accepting the Argos as long as we get a moveable South stand, no football lines, red seats etc you won't even get those concessions. Go in with a philosophy of not one inch and there's no way they'll be able to take a yard.

Fort York Redcoat
08-12-2008, 10:18 AM
I know I'm ahead of myself here but picture it-

The first game at BMO with CFL lines, the south stand starts throwing beers (etc.) on the field and the rest join in, the game is stopped and we get our own Colorado Rapids-esque escort out of the stadium.

^well said Heathen

alexintoronto
08-12-2008, 10:24 AM
Some good points! They built the damn dome to avoid the weather to get fairweather fans (ha ha) to the games. But the Grey cup and play off games would be in Rogers Centre like the Olympic Stadium for max capacity. I don't think transport would be a deciding factor but I hope you're right.

Except that the SkyDome might be modified to host NFL Football - meaning the Grey Cup cannot be played there.

Fort York Redcoat
08-12-2008, 10:28 AM
Alex you've been there right? This is probably some temp stands in front of already terrible lower bowl seats:rolleyes:. The major adjustments they need to make is the capacity for NFL must be bigger ie the hotel must go. But the Rogers Centre doesn't own the hotel you say? The plot thickens...

ensco
08-12-2008, 10:31 AM
What? Do you not speak businessese or something? Let me break it down for you:



He is saying "because of our business deal with the city of Toronto, we're not allowed to publicly state what we actually want in this deal, since we have no official say and any negativity expressed now would strain our working relationship; however, off the record, we REALLY don't want them here"

Trust me, Peddie does not want the argos to invade any more than you people do. You all say how MLSE is greedy, good at making money, but THIS TIME they're wrong? Sure, they're greedy. Yes, they are damned good at making money. That being said, THEY KNOW FULL WELL that the fans don't want the ARGOs to move in. They know they would risk killing their cash cow to allow it. Believe me, they are fighting this out of the public eye. I understand Stuart Green (who I believe posts on this forum) will say publicly that the city doesn't want it, but if you look at the financial concerns, it isn't hard to guess that the city would want it more than MLSE would.

Trust you? Of all the "know it all" posts, this one takes the cake. If you can't source this, I'm going to say this is utter nonsense.

MLSE are a tenant at BMO, with a facilities management contract. I've read that agreement, and they idea that "negativity would strain the relationship" shouldn't matter to them contractually. From a relationship point of view, this SHOULD be straining the relationship. If MLSE aren't careful, this Argos thing is going to kill their team!

There is no obvious reason that Peddie can't do what Garber did, which is state in the strongest possible way that he will do everything in his power to make sure BMO remains an SSS. I don't know why Peddie's not saying it, but most of the reasons that he wouldn't do so, aren't good.

graeme117
08-12-2008, 10:31 AM
Except that the SkyDome might be modified to host NFL Football - meaning the Grey Cup cannot be played there.

lol, but if they put in movable stands they could accommodate both and not hurt the atmosphere for either sport :idea: ...... oh wait you can already do that at the dome

alexintoronto
08-12-2008, 10:33 AM
I'm not sure how they're going to do it if an NFL team moves in permanently, but if they use the SkyDome instead of a new stadium - I heard one possibilty would be to dig deeper into the ground as much as possible while still accomodating the smaller NFL field - and add seats that way. I don't know if that's what would happen - but I think it's likely that if the NFL team was permanent - there would be permanent changes that would preclude the Argos from playing there.

The Argos have the option to stay there until 2019 if they want - they can stop NFL football from coming to the SkyDome... unless they move to BMO

Whoop
08-12-2008, 10:34 AM
If the NFL were to ever move to Toronto, a new stadium would have to be built.

The SkyDome is just too small for the NFL.

Maybe the Argos can share that stadium with the NFL team?

Roogsy
08-12-2008, 10:35 AM
If you can't source this, I'm going to say this is utter nonsense.

There is no obvious reason that Peddie can't do what Garber did, which is state in the strongest possible way that he will do everything in his power to make sure BMO remains an SSS. I don't know why Peddie's not saying it, but most of the reasons that he wouldn't do so, aren't good.

I am going to have to agree with Ensco on this one.

rocker
08-12-2008, 10:41 AM
If the NFL were to ever move to Toronto, a new stadium would have to be built.

The SkyDome is just too small for the NFL.

Maybe the Argos can share that stadium with the NFL team?

if they do build a new stadium for the NFL, they might need the Argos...
people talk about how BMO needs more dates to make more money for the city, but a new NFL stadium needs that even more... I mean, it's amazing to think a new Toronto NFL stadium would only have about 10 days usage out of 365.

alexintoronto
08-12-2008, 11:01 AM
The NFL isn't coming to Toronto. The city will get some games. But not a permanent franchise.

Lets not forget that BMO was built by the taxpayers of this country. After naming rights, MLSE didn't spend a dime on the place.

And as such, it's public funded stadium that should be made available to any local team to use. So here's to a pro feild lacrosse team setting up shot at BMO as well.

In addition, MLSE contributed towards the cost of the building of the stadium. With the total costs in the realm of $62 million ($72 million including land), contributions came from multiple sources. MLSE contributed $8 million towards the construction of the stadium and $10 million towards securing the naming rights of the stadium. The Canadian Federal Government contributed $27 million, with Ontario's government adding an additional $8 million. Toronto paid $9.8 million, and has the ownership of the stadium. (All figures are in Canadian dollars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_dollar).)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMO_Field

Note: Argos contributed $0

Don Julio
08-12-2008, 11:10 AM
And as such, it's public funded stadium that should be made available to any local team to use. So here's to a pro feild lacrosse team setting up shot at BMO as well.

The library at the end of my street was paid for by taxpayers, yet every time I try to get a good scrimmage going in there I end up getting kicked out.

Roogsy
08-12-2008, 11:13 AM
The NFL isn't coming to Toronto. The city will get some games. But not a permanent franchise.

Lets not forget that BMO was built by the taxpayers of this country. After naming rights, MLSE didn't spend a dime on the place.

And as such, it's public funded stadium that should be made available to any local team to use. So here's to a pro feild lacrosse team setting up shot at BMO as well.

Since it's a publicly funded stadium, it isn't a personal negotiating tool for a private company. At best the argument should be that it should be made available for community use...which....if you knew anything about the situation, it is!!! So that addresses the taxpayer angle. I don't pay taxes so that a company can play two sides against each other like the Argos did. Yes MLSE is reaping some of the benefits of the taxpayer funded stadium, but they are entitled to them since the stadium was built because they a) contributed money hence "own" a share and b) secured a team to play in said stadium and c) secured sponsorship for the stadium. None of these things were provided by the Argos and in fact would be using the money for the cost of the renovations just to make the stadium suit their team, they add nothing to the stadium and weren't there to provide the initial capital and support when the stadium was just a plan. They deserve no credit and no say. I am sick of this "taxpayer" issue and the people who ignore the facts that the taxpayer is getting his money's worth NOW without the Argos. Not only did the city make a modest profit ALREADY ahead of schedule, but the community groups are making full use of the stadium. What else do you want from a taxpayer funded project?

Don Julio
08-12-2008, 11:19 AM
The fact that the stadium has become a profitable investment should also relieve some of the pressure for the city to share since it will eventually earn the taxpayers money..

Fort York Redcoat
08-12-2008, 11:20 AM
So for a scant $50mil MLSE can have it exclusively and then we can have grass?:)

Whoop
08-12-2008, 11:20 AM
The library at the end of my street was paid for by taxpayers, yet every time I try to get a good scrimmage going in there I end up getting kicked out.

I'm going to see if I can rent out the Four Seasons Centre for the Performing Arts and see if I can host a burlesque show there.

Roogsy
08-12-2008, 11:21 AM
I am going to rent out the Toronto City Hall board room for a bachelor party.

Beach_Red
08-12-2008, 11:40 AM
The library at the end of my street was paid for by taxpayers, yet every time I try to get a good scrimmage going in there I end up getting kicked out.

They do let you sit around and read and even take the books home for free, though. And there's a room in my local library I can rent - for specific purposes, and that seems to be the issue here, BMO has some specific uses and CFL football isn't one of them - taxpayer funded or not.

LucaGol
08-12-2008, 11:41 AM
This whole Argos situation is a disaster and is getting worse by the day.

How the hell can a po'dunk place like Columbus have a soccer specific stadium ... with grass ... and we have to put up with this nonsense.

We'll have neither if the Argos move in.


I suppose the question for us supporters would become (and maybe someone could make a poll out of this).....

If you had to choose between:

a) Downtown stadium/multi-purpose/easy commuter access/no grass/poor seating/increasing capacity to 30000

vs.

b) Stadium about 20 minutes north of the city core/grass/soccer-specific/better soccer venue

vs.

c) Scrap both those ideas, let the Argos have BMO...and MLSE builds a 25,000 seater at the Port of Toronto where there's plenty of space for a downtown venue....with bloody f*ckin grass.


Which option would you go with?

Stugatzo
08-12-2008, 01:39 PM
What? Do you not speak businessese or something? Let me break it down for you:



He is saying "because of our business deal with the city of Toronto, we're not allowed to publicly state what we actually want in this deal, since we have no official say and any negativity expressed now would strain our working relationship; however, off the record, we REALLY don't want them here"

Trust me, Peddie does not want the argos to invade any more than you people do. You all say how MLSE is greedy, good at making money, but THIS TIME they're wrong? Sure, they're greedy. Yes, they are damned good at making money. That being said, THEY KNOW FULL WELL that the fans don't want the ARGOs to move in. They know they would risk killing their cash cow to allow it. Believe me, they are fighting this out of the public eye. I understand Stuart Green (who I believe posts on this forum) will say publicly that the city doesn't want it, but if you look at the financial concerns, it isn't hard to guess that the city would want it more than MLSE would.

And has been on this board since nearly the beginning and has been an STH since Day 1 and has missed only 1 game at BMO and was on the Columbus and Chicago road trips this year....

Marco2K
08-12-2008, 01:42 PM
If the ARGOS move in i will cancel my tickets

100%

AL-MO
08-12-2008, 01:53 PM
If this does happen, it will just further how much of a joke this country is when it comes to Sports (other than Hockey). We finally get a decent facility for our National Team and a real Professional team and two years in the original intent of this stadium is a distant memory.

There is no leadership from our governments about sport at all. They only thing that is on their radar is Hockey...which has been pounded into everyones head is a Canadian tradition and nothing else.

Go down to the states. Are they a Soccer/Football country? NO! But you'd still see that the facilites are SO much better because governments GET IT, they understand the importance of Sports.

Canadians would rather worry about hockey and arguing if someone is infringing on their rights.

rocker
08-12-2008, 01:58 PM
regarding financial concerns tho -- what is the benefit of 9 more games a year in BMO to the city? and how big is that benefit?

I'm not being sarcastic, just wondering if anyone has any clue what "value" that has. Originally at a projection of 14000 attendance per year, for 20 years, the city projected it would gain 9.9 million dollars total (so about 500K a year).

Obviously that projection is now out of date given the attendance is 20000 a game.
If that 20000 a game continues for 20 years (who knows if that'll happen tho) then they might be around $15 million gained over that period minus about 9 million that they contributed to its construction. Now, that's a nice profit for the city, but after construction costs, it's $300,000 a year in a city revenue stream of about 8 billion (yes billion) dollars, which is chump change.

TFC has already played more than the projected number of games per season in the original agreement. So they've already contributed added revenue to the city purely on additional games played (which seems to be the rationale for adding Argos games).

In no way is BMO Field hurting for money. In no way is the city ever going to lose anything on this, and will indeed make a tidy profit by the end of the 20 year term.

Adding the Argos is not simply about "gain" however. The construction costs must be covered by somebody. And the addition of the Argos as a tenant will surely require the renegotiation of the revenue sharing agreement between the city and MLSE. MLSE really holds all the cards here, as they have a 20 year agreement on revenue sharing. The city and MLSE would have to carefully consider how adding the Argos as a tenant would affect revenue sharing and projections. MLSE would be idiots to just say Argos games will be shared with the city 50-50 -- they would want their cut too. Thus revenues for those 9 home games will be less than 9 TFC games contribute. Not to mention that box revenues are shared 55-45 with the city and these are already accounted for. In no way can the Argos just ask the city to let them in. MLSE lawyers wouldn't like that ;)

With these arguments, I just wanted to suggest that the financial benefit to the city is actually not that great, in light of the way the original agreement has already been exceeded, and in the end it's a drop in the city's revenue bucket.

NOw, if the Argos start saying "Oh NO, DADDY ROGERS IS GONNA KICK US OUT, OUR TRADITION MUST BE SAVED BY GOING TO BMO" then you never know. But even then, MLSE can still say "get lost" since saving another team isn't their business.

denime
08-12-2008, 02:00 PM
If this does happen, it will just further how much of a joke this country is when it comes to Sports (other than Hockey). We finally get a decent facility for our National Team and a real Professional team and two years in the original intent of this stadium is a distant memory.

There is no leadership from our governments about sport at all. They only thing that is on their radar is Hockey...which has been pounded into everyones head is a Canadian tradition and nothing else.

Go down to the states. Are they a Soccer/Football country? NO! But you'd still see that the facilites are SO much better because governments GET IT, they understand the importance of Sports.

Canadians would rather worry about hockey and arguing if someone is infringing on their rights.

QFT :iagree:

Beach_Red
08-12-2008, 02:02 PM
If this does happen, it will just further how much of a joke this country is when it comes to Sports (other than Hockey). We finally get a decent facility for our National Team and a real Professional team and two years in the original intent of this stadium is a distant memory.

There is no leadership from our governments about sport at all. They only thing that is on their radar is Hockey...which has been pounded into everyones head is a Canadian tradition and nothing else.

Go down to the states. Are they a Soccer/Football country? NO! But you'd still see that the facilites are SO much better because governments GET IT, they understand the importance of Sports.

Canadians would rather worry about hockey and arguing if someone is infringing on their rights.

I don't know how much I want my government involved in pro sports - which is a business. There's a lot of controversy in the states about public money used for sports stadiums that just benefit private companies - in a country with one of the worst health care situations in the developed world. I don't agree their goverment GETS IT.

I think we learned our lesson from SkyDome and the Olympic Stadium in Montreal. At least I hope we did.

And yes, Canadians would rather worry about hockey. That may change over the next decade or so, but for now, yeah, it's number one.

Although it's not like there's some "National Stadium" for our hockey team.

TicTacTabarnack
08-12-2008, 02:04 PM
Eugh ... Something is definitely going on behind the scenes if the Argos are asking their STH's this question!

Why hasn't MLSE or Toronto FC said anything about this yet? This is very agrivating!

sully
08-12-2008, 02:11 PM
If this does happen, it will just further how much of a joke this country is when it comes to Sports (other than Hockey). We finally get a decent facility for our National Team and a real Professional team and two years in the original intent of this stadium is a distant memory.

There is no leadership from our governments about sport at all. They only thing that is on their radar is Hockey...which has been pounded into everyones head is a Canadian tradition and nothing else.

Go down to the states. Are they a Soccer/Football country? NO! But you'd still see that the facilites are SO much better because governments GET IT, they understand the importance of Sports.

Canadians would rather worry about hockey and arguing if someone is infringing on their rights.

well...if Canada's Olympic medal count is a barometer of the governments attitute to sport than I'd say you are right..

sully
08-12-2008, 02:18 PM
I actually believe that MLSE doesn't want the Argos there anymore than we do...but this is a city owned stadium so they need to be careful what they say, certainly not anything definitive about No to Argos..on the other hand if MLSE wanted the Argos there they would surely be drumming up support for it with the city and Argos..the fact that they're not doing that is an indicator for us of where they stand.

AL-MO
08-12-2008, 02:19 PM
I don't know how much I want my government involved in pro sports - which is a business. There's a lot of controversy in the states about public money used for sports stadiums that just benefit private companies - in a country with one of the worst health care situations in the developed world. I don't agree their goverment GETS IT.

I think we learned our lesson from SkyDome and the Olympic Stadium in Montreal. At least I hope we did.

And yes, Canadians would rather worry about hockey. That may change over the next decade or so, but for now, yeah, it's number one.

Although it's not like there's some "National Stadium" for our hockey team.


I agree that I don't want the government funding every Pro sports team, but BMO field isn't Skydome/Olympic Stadium. This was a budget stadium to begin with BECAUSE of their involvement. All I am asking for is the government to stand up and say "NO this is a Soccer stadium. Soccer is to be played here. This is not a footbal stadium. We already built the Argos a stadium when we funded Skydome"

Also I don't know the figures specifically but this league (the MLS) wouldn't be getting more Soccer Specific Stadiums without the help of the government down south.

Whoop
08-12-2008, 02:23 PM
I don't know how much I want my government involved in pro sports - which is a business. There's a lot of controversy in the states about public money used for sports stadiums that just benefit private companies - in a country with one of the worst health care situations in the developed world. I don't agree their goverment GETS IT.

I think we learned our lesson from SkyDome and the Olympic Stadium in Montreal. At least I hope we did.

And yes, Canadians would rather worry about hockey. That may change over the next decade or so, but for now, yeah, it's number one.

Although it's not like there's some "National Stadium" for our hockey team.

It's about building a legacy.

Why is Canada pretty good at the Winter Olympics? Because we got pretty good facilities that were built in Calgary in '88. Add those to the ones being built in B.C. for 2010 and now Canadian athletes have world class facilities to train in and at the same time athletes from overseas can come and train at these facilities I'm sure at a cost.

But more importantly it's about creating a healthier living standards. A kid goes to BMO to see a game and now all of a sudden he or she wants to play and join a league.

I meant whatever happened to PARTICIPACTION?

You look at Australia - which is a perfectly good example in comparison to Canada - and the amount of money that was pumped into their facilities and infrastructure and the citizens of Australia have reaped the benefits of it. Sure the weather is better than it is in Canada but last I checked swimming facilities for example are indoor, no?

That was the shame of Toronto not getting this year's Olympics. I mean everyone kept up bringing up the negative aspects of hosting the Olympics yet no one talked about the positive, healthy impacts to the city and to the overall health of the population. Imagine swimming in the same pool where Michael Phelps smashed world records. Competing on the same track where records fell.
Last I checked, the homeless problem in Toronto is still pretty crappy, our waterfront stinks and we don't have any facilities for any of our athletes. Even for hockey. The last public rink built in Toronto was back in the late 60s! Though to their credit, they are building a new complex at Lakeshore Arena, though it is in partnership with MLSE.

The bottom line, yes BMO is a "pro" stadium but it just goes to show that while in other countries, being an athlete is considered a PROFESSION, here in Canada unless you're not in one of the "pro" sports, you don't get a break.

And the fact that the city is willing to lose a SSS goes to show what the city thinks of a building a legacy.

Imagine a country where we could have top notch SSSs in Montreal, Vancouver and Toronto. It would be tremendous to the future of football in Canada. We might even qualify for the World Cup and dare we dream, possibly even host one.

But the city is short sighted when it comes those matters.

Beach_Red
08-12-2008, 02:25 PM
well...if Canada's Olympic medal count is a barometer of the governments attitute to sport than I'd say you are right..

How come it's bad when a pro sports team "buys" a championship, but it's fine for governments to buy olympic medals?

Okay, I'm half kidding here, but really, how far down the list of government priorities should olympic medals be?

sully
08-12-2008, 02:30 PM
Okay, I'm half kidding here, but really, how far down the list of government priorities should olympic medals be?

not even close to priorities like health, security of course but when the likes of Togo are wininng medals well?? Canada is one of the richest countries in the world afterall..

Beach_Red
08-12-2008, 02:32 PM
It's about building a legacy.

That was the shame of Toronto not getting this year's Olympics. I mean everyone kept up bringing up the negative aspects of hosting the Olympics yet no one talked about the positive, healthy impacts to the city and to the overall health of the population. Imagine swimming in the same pool where Michael Phelps smashed world records. Competing on the same track where records fell.

But the city is short sighted when it comes those matters.

The city is short sighted when it comes to EVERY issue - all governments are.

I should say, I'm 100% in favour of BMO being a soccer-only facility. It shouldn't even be up for discussion.

Getting the olympics and building a legacy are two different things, though. It's not automatic. I'd say we built no legacy whatsoever after the Montreal Olympics in '76. I'm not sure I have enough faith in the powers that be here that even if they got the olympics they'd do any more than line the pockets of a bunch of developers.

It's frustrating, but it is changing, getting a little better. We have BMO now, we just have to hold on to it. It's complicated with various levels of government involved and none of them being definitive about anything.

Now BMO is a victim of TFC's success and other people want in on it. They should really build their own. Though personally, I think within the next ten years we'll have big, new soccer facility owned entirely by MLSE like the ACC - there's just too much profit in it for them.

Beach_Red
08-12-2008, 02:33 PM
not even close to priorities like health, security of course but when the likes of Togo are wininng medals well?? Canada is one of the richest countries in the world afterall..

Yeah, I would certainly like to see Canada win a lot of medals but I don't want to admit that it's simply a matter of pouring in more money - even if it is....

Whoop
08-12-2008, 02:34 PM
You can make the argument about buying Olympic medals but also improving health care.

You have a healthier populous, you have fewer health care costs.

You have finely tuned athletes that you can test on for example, you can have medical breakthroughs.

Hell, judging by the outfits the swimmers wear you can have technological breakthroughs.

But in the end you have more people participating in athletics, particularly kids, who think, damn I can actually be an athlete when I grow up. Maybe not all of them become Olympic athletes, but a lot more of them train to be one and you figure that they will pass that on to their children.

A look at the performance of Great Britain in the pool. They are spending more money so they don't embarrass themselves in 2012 and the results are coming through already.

Whoop
08-12-2008, 02:36 PM
Getting the olympics and building a legacy are two different things, though. It's not automatic. I'd say we built no legacy whatsoever after the Montreal Olympics in '76. I'm not sure I have enough faith in the powers that be here that even if they got the olympics they'd do any more than line the pockets of a bunch of developers.


That's because Montreal fucked up huge especially in the building Olympic stadium and it's stupid roof. And the arrogance of Jean Drapeau didn't help.

Yet Calgary serves as a model for a running of a profitable Olympics.

At the end of the day, keep sport specific facilities sport specific.

Beach_Red
08-12-2008, 02:49 PM
That's because Montreal fucked up huge especially in the building Olympic stadium and it's stupid roof. And the arrogance of Jean Drapeau didn't help.

Yet Calgary serves as a model for a running of a profitable Olympics.

At the end of the day, keep sport specific facilities sport specific.

Yeah, you're right. "The olympics can no more lose money than a man can have a baby." I remember the great cartoons the pregnant Drapeau.

The summer olympics are such a huge undertaking, though, that the kind of Montreal-style corruption could easily be repeated in Toronto. Canada may simply be better off as a winter olympic country.

And yes, keep sport specific facilities sport specific.

Marco2K
08-12-2008, 04:05 PM
MLSE should let the Argos have BMO with its red seats.


In turn the move up to Downsview Park and Build a new 25000 real grass stadium with a dozen training facitlies around the stadium.

Lets say MLSE invests 100 000 into this. Think about the money they could make if Parking and all concessions were theirs.

AL-MO
08-12-2008, 04:49 PM
MLSE should let the Argos have BMO with its red seats.


In turn the move up to Downsview Park and Build a new 25000 real grass stadium with a dozen training facitlies around the stadium.

Lets say MLSE invests 100 000 into this. Think about the money they could make if Parking and all concessions were theirs.


Its closer to where I am coming from, but I'd rather be down at the exhibition!

Marco2K
08-12-2008, 06:44 PM
So would i but lets be serious. MLSE needs their own home. U cant build 12 fields at the ex

I love BMO field But i dont want to see the argos.


Will the argos want to change the seats?

D_Sertl
08-12-2008, 08:43 PM
What I like, is how the Argo's season ticket holders get asked thier opinion on the stadium swap, and those of us who hold season tickets for TFC probably won't get asked anything.

LUFC
08-12-2008, 11:09 PM
why dont u all just go to a argoes game kitted out in toronto gear, get the banners out+ flares n just protest this whole shit, and hey if u dont give a shit wip beers n whatever u got available on the field. but i doubt anyone be into that.

Flipityflu
08-13-2008, 10:46 AM
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/blogs/2008/08/13/dobson_blog_argos/?ok=5b635230e4dcf8a771014d03b3015436#comments

dobson has made some comments

sully
08-13-2008, 10:56 AM
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/blogs/2008/08/13/dobson_blog_argos/?ok=5b635230e4dcf8a771014d03b3015436#comments

dobson has made some comments

finally, a reality-check from someone in the media..

Phil
08-13-2008, 11:01 AM
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/blogs/2008/08/13/dobson_blog_argos/?ok=5b635230e4dcf8a771014d03b3015436#comments

dobson has made some comments


What a great read that was!

Finally someone in the media who understands what IS happening in Toronto vs. what has happened.

ACSertL
08-13-2008, 11:03 AM
Dobson's blog made me smile from ear to ear...need more of those kind of stories out there.

Cheers Gerry!

Shaughno
08-13-2008, 11:05 AM
Fantastic.



The Argos can say whatever they want about what exactly BMO Field is, but we know what it is, what it isn't, and what it cannot be. Without someone (the Argos) spending nearly as much as it cost to build the place, BMO Field can't possibly handle the monstrously long CFL Field.

rocker
08-13-2008, 12:36 PM
i'd like to see Gerry bitchslap Toth in the sportsnet office.

AL-MO
08-13-2008, 12:38 PM
What I like, is how the Argo's season ticket holders get asked thier opinion on the stadium swap, and those of us who hold season tickets for TFC probably won't get asked anything.


Putting the cart before the horse?

Heathen
08-13-2008, 12:45 PM
Dobson's blog made me smile from ear to ear...need more of those kind of stories out there.

Cheers Gerry!

aye, Gerry I take back every derisive comment I've ever made about your commentating skills and soccer knowledge... you're :thumbsup:

AL-MO
08-13-2008, 01:15 PM
Someone reply to this comment:

however it would have great if you had posted this a week before the MLS all star game, preventing some of those meathead red patch boys from embarrassing themselves and all TFC fans by wearing black and not supporting the team and its colours over this non-issue.

He needs to be reminded that TFC wasn't playing in the All Star game! The fans that embarrassed themselves were the ones who showed up and were singing TFC songs when the team wasn't playing!

AL-MO
08-13-2008, 05:07 PM
I love how the pro 'argo/football' guys who post at the bottom of Gerry's article bring up reasons that have nothing to do with the situation. "Football is more interesting than Soccer"

and suggesting the MLS will fold...:lol: !

Flipityflu
08-13-2008, 05:28 PM
yeah, i made a comment to that guy, especially him saying how the argo's draw more attendance than we do. well, i guess having a stadium built for 55,000 people would probably do that.

AL-MO
08-13-2008, 05:41 PM
yeah, i made a comment to that guy, especially him saying how the argo's draw more attendance than we do. well, i guess having a stadium built for 55,000 people would probably do that.


Yeah I saw that. Logic must escape them.

Redcoe15
08-13-2008, 06:11 PM
That guy, berezin99, is a fucking retard who trolls the boards slamming sports he doesn't like. If you follow a sport he hates, you're a low life scum. Plus, as you can tell by his post, he can't type nor spell too good. Guy needs to start taking his meds. Or, get ass fucked with a red hot curling iron.

RPB_Brantford_08
08-13-2008, 09:27 PM
If the Argoooooos come, I will cancel my season tickets and send my jersey to goodwill.

thats what they want you to do, the scumbag Argos are looking for attention in a city that really wants NFL gridirion football not the
Canadian shit type currently played in the city. Keep you seasons tickets and pressure TO city council, MLSE the CFL that we don't want the Argos ever in OUR house./

RPB_Brantford_08
08-14-2008, 01:51 PM
why dont u all just go to a argoes game kitted out in toronto gear, get the banners out+ flares n just protest this whole shit, and hey if u dont give a shit wip beers n whatever u got available on the field. but i doubt anyone be into that.

Nice articel by Gerry....but you idea sounds even better...drastic times call for drastic measures. F**K the Argos and the CFL.

Redcoe15
08-14-2008, 04:35 PM
Another fucking retard named MaxPower77 is trying to pass himself off as an intellect. Everybody flame him.

profit89
08-14-2008, 05:11 PM
i hope the cfl folds. it's a shit league and a shit sport.

Fort York Redcoat
08-14-2008, 06:10 PM
Way to stoop to their level. Comments like that don't do much for changing people's minds BTW. Just sayin'

RPB_Brantford_08
08-14-2008, 07:16 PM
Way to stoop to their level. Comments like that don't do much for changing people's minds BTW. Just sayin'

what else are we suppose to do we are really powerless here!!!:noidea:

RPB_Brantford_08
08-16-2008, 04:20 PM
MLSE should let the Argos have BMO with its red seats.


In turn the move up to Downsview Park and Build a new 25000 real grass stadium with a dozen training facitlies around the stadium.

Lets say MLSE invests 100 000 into this. Think about the money they could make if Parking and all concessions were theirs.


why not put the Argos up in downsview and keep BMO as it was meant to be the national soccer stadium. The argos know they are in trouble when the Bills move here, and they will its only a matter of when...a decade at the latest. so they should be looking at putting the CFL team in London or Kitchener wher Argos fans could still attend...of course that would still mean Building there own stadium/

Don Julio
08-16-2008, 05:40 PM
Anecdotal, I know, but Iwas at the Argos game last night - in some of the cheaper seats. I overheard the two guy behind me talking about a BMO Field move and they were not enthusiastic at all.. "Fuck that, if tonight's game was there forget it!"

(It was raining at the start of the game, btw)

They'll never get good sporting atmosphere as long as the game is riddled with dozens of little game shows and crap like that. It's impossible to pay attention to the game!

netsan
08-16-2008, 06:35 PM
The only way that the Argos end up at BMO is if MLSE buys the team. If that happens, it's over for the SSS.

TFC-Tyler
08-16-2008, 10:53 PM
why not put the Argos up in downsview and keep BMO as it was meant to be the national soccer stadium. The argos know they are in trouble when the Bills move here, and they will its only a matter of when...a decade at the latest. so they should be looking at putting the CFL team in London or Kitchener wher Argos fans could still attend...of course that would still mean Building there own stadium/
Your sig is fucking retarded. Yeah, a team wants to play in a stadium, so let's insult the Canadian league, and their history, which in one game is more than Toronto FC entire history.

TFC+Argos4Life
08-17-2008, 12:30 AM
Tyler, don't pay any attention to him. Since he's from Brampton and uses words like "shite", I'm thinking he's the guy Toth was talking about when he referred to "fake british accents" among the supporters groups...

Run along now, Brampton, go put on "football factories" and jerk off... but don't forget to use your british accent :)

twistedchinaman
08-17-2008, 12:39 AM
Can this post die already?

Please and thank you.

Fort York Redcoat
08-17-2008, 08:26 AM
what else are we suppose to do we are really powerless here!!!:noidea:

I find the use of logic and fact more comforting than unbased name calling in this case. You're not winning anyone over but I understand and feel your frustration. And yeah this thread is running out of steam.

ArteEtLabore
08-17-2008, 08:28 AM
Can this post die already?


I'd love for this issue to die, personally. But for that to happen, we need one of the following to happen:

* The city of Toronto (or whoever owns BMO) formally states that BMO will remain soccer-specific
* The NFL moves to Toronto and the interest in CFL in Toronto dies away
* Interest in CFL in Toronto grows to the point where they are averaging more than 35,000 per game, and so it wouldn't be economical to move to BMO
* Interest in CFL in Toronto declines to the point where the Argos don't have the money to afford the stadium redesign
* They install grass at BMO