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View Full Version : Follow up from we will not win on the road until we defend



trane
08-09-2008, 06:47 PM
Today we defended. Today we won. Good defense is the quickest route to positive results. We had a undermand team, but by defending we won.

def fret
08-09-2008, 08:29 PM
By scoring we won. By defending we kept them off the sheet.

boban
08-09-2008, 08:31 PM
By scoring we won. By defending we kept them off the sheet.
We scored in other games and lost.
Trane is correct. Defend and win.

Stryker
08-09-2008, 08:31 PM
Yeah thanks coach. :rolleyes:

James Oliphant
08-09-2008, 08:34 PM
Total Shots: Toronto FC 8 - Colorado Rapids 21

This is your idea of defending?

boban
08-09-2008, 08:36 PM
Total Shots: Toronto FC 8 - Colorado Rapids 21

This is your idea of defending?
Well it sure as heck isn't offensive minded.

James Oliphant
08-09-2008, 08:42 PM
Well it sure as heck isn't offensive minded.

It sure isn't defensive-minded either...not right-minded, anyway. No team worth their salt defensively allows 21 shots at their goal over 90 minutes.

Thread should be renamed "We will not win on the road until Sutton pulls a victory out of his ass for us".

LucaGol
08-09-2008, 08:43 PM
We were lucky....ok....

....let's not make it out to be more than it is.

We played no better, no worse than in Chicago, Salt Lake..etc.

James Oliphant
08-09-2008, 08:47 PM
We were lucky....ok....

....let's not make it out to be more than it is.

We played no better, no worse than in Chicago, Salt Lake..etc.

QFT.

Roogsy
08-09-2008, 09:19 PM
We were lucky....ok....

....let's not make it out to be more than it is.

We played no better, no worse than in Chicago, Salt Lake..etc.

Totally true.

We need a game where Toronto totally overwhelms, like we did against Colorado at home. The good thing about this win is that it may give our boys a little confidence.

Cashcleaner
08-09-2008, 09:36 PM
I don't see how anyone can figure we played a defensive game today. Colorado had a lot of solid possession in our end and got 10 shots on net (with a total of 21 shots altogether for them). I'm not saying we were lucky with the win either, but I don't think the defense deserve any big accolades.

Flipityflu
08-09-2008, 09:42 PM
well, we may have been lucky today, but it surely makes a change from some of the bad luck we have had during matches we should have won.

ExiledRed
08-09-2008, 11:30 PM
We won because we worked hard, and didnt give up, despite the fact we were outclassed up and down the pitch.

We worked hard and didnt get stressed out, and frustrated a stronger team trying like mad to score on us, it was a classic, gritty, road win.

The reason this was possible IMO is because all the prima-donna's were missing.

Robert, Guevara and Cunningham.

Either three of those play, Barret doesn't take the free kick, we get frustrated and we lose.

Heathen
08-09-2008, 11:40 PM
I'm with you trane buddy, nice to have a stay at home right back for a change much as I love Wynne.
You're spot on too Ex, no prima donnas today.

LucaGol
08-09-2008, 11:45 PM
I'm with you trane buddy, nice to have a stay at home right back for a change much as I love Wynne.
You're spot on too Ex, no prima donnas today.

True.

If you really stop and think about it tactically...we play a pretty f'd up formation on a regular basis.

Sure....what you see on paper is a 4-2-3-1

But with Wynne always marauding deep up the field...its more like a 3-2-4-1....and is not helped by the fact that Brennan also likes to get forward into advanced positions.

Heathen
08-09-2008, 11:48 PM
True.

If you really stop and think about it tactically...we play a pretty f'd up formation on a regular basis.

Sure....what you see on paper is a 4-2-3-1

But with Wynne always marauding deep up the field...its more like a 3-2-4-1....and is not helped by the fact that Brennan also likes to get forward into advanced positions.

of on a tangent but I hate Roberto Carlos for what he's done to the art of full-backing, now everyone thinks you're shit unless you're a pseudo winger, prime example Lahm who can't defend for toffee

Bars92
08-10-2008, 01:44 AM
we won cause we are a better bunch of lads with a a better bunch of supporters. The thing that tainted this win was the pathetic lack of support in Denver. We deserved this game even with our B squad cause we own this mutherfucker ..

Cashcleaner
08-10-2008, 02:12 AM
^ I still can't believe how few people showed up for the game. It's a nice new stadium as well! I know it doesn't help that they're second-last in the standings and all, but I dunno.

Shakes McQueen
08-10-2008, 02:19 AM
^ I still can't believe how few people showed up for the game. It's a nice new stadium as well! I know it doesn't help that they're second-last in the standings and all, but I dunno.

I think the problem with a lot of these fledgling MLS franchises, is a lack of visibility. BMO Field is right in downtown Toronto - you can see the pitch from the highway.

"Dick's Sporting Goods Park" appears to be in Middle of Nowhere, Colorado. A stadium in an urban area generates a lot more buzz.

A better team would also help, since Colorado doesn't have the kind of multi-cultural, football loving population a place like Toronto has.

I think Ives has mentioned it before, but the ability to go to a pub in the afternoon, and then take a streetcar directly to BMO Field, is a big part of why BMO is arguably the best stadium in all of MLS. Location, location, location.

- Scott

trane
08-10-2008, 07:59 AM
Total Shots: Toronto FC 8 - Colorado Rapids 21

This is your idea of defending?

We kept 9 man behind the ball. We stayed at home, we created from counter attack. They out shot us, but there is shots, and then there is shots. Not many of their shots were quality shots. Most shots were made while we had presure on them, or from far out. Many were right at Sutton, Sutton had to be good but he did not have many difficult saves to make.

We defended, and as Exiled said we worked hard. As a result we won. It was not prety but we won. That is what I want to see. I do not care about how prety the game was. I agree with those who say that it was nice to see a stay at home Rigth back. It worked. We did not play as well in Chicago, not defensively, in Chicago we made terrible defensive missuse right in front of sutton allowing not shots, but open runs at the keeper, and those cost us. Allowing a shot, while putting pressure on an attacker is better, then the ussual allowing a defender alone deep behind the back line.

Someone said that there were 10 shots, most of these were right at Sutton. This is not simply luck, [ although there was an ellement of this on Casey miss], it is a result of hard defensive play.

trane
08-10-2008, 08:26 AM
It is funny, but I think most people would have been happier if we allowed four goals, but scored three, then people would think that was a great performance.

giambac
08-10-2008, 09:03 AM
It sure isn't defensive-minded either...not right-minded, anyway. No team worth their salt defensively allows 21 shots at their goal over 90 minutes.

Thread should be renamed "We will not win on the road until Sutton pulls a victory out of his ass for us".

The thread should be renamed... TFC wins with the help of the referee.

I mean where are all you guys who were bitching and complaining about the refs being against us last week and are always to blame for screwing up TFC. Alot of excuses last week.

Did they noy help us today with the win............

Flipityflu
08-10-2008, 09:08 AM
The thread should be renamed... TFC wins with the help of the referee.

I mean where are all you guys who were bitching and complaining about the refs being against us last week and are always to blame for screwing up TFC. Alot of excuses last week.

Did they noy help us today with the win............


yes, thats called balance. lets face it, we deserved that kind of refing for once.

take the 3 points and smile.

Bluenose13
08-10-2008, 09:13 AM
The thread should be renamed... TFC wins with the help of the referee.

I mean where are all you guys who were bitching and complaining about the refs being against us last week and are always to blame for screwing up TFC. Alot of excuses last week.

Did they noy help us today with the win............
We didn't win with the help of the Referee this week.......We just didn't get fucked by him.

giambac
08-10-2008, 09:33 AM
yes, thats called balance. lets face it, we deserved that kind of refing for once.

take the 3 points and smile.

Agreed,

and I'm happy with the 3 points.

However last week everyone was blaming the refs for our loss and not looking at the team and it's scoring problems.

yesterday TFC played with an extra man for 20 minutes, and we still struggled abit.

Those who were complaining last week about the poor quality of MLS ref's haven't said a word so far. They are very inconsistent and bias in their opinions

As I said last week, usually the calls balance out over the season.....

ExiledRed
08-10-2008, 09:43 AM
The thread should be renamed... TFC wins with the help of the referee.

I mean where are all you guys who were bitching and complaining about the refs being against us last week and are always to blame for screwing up TFC. Alot of excuses last week.

Did they noy help us today with the win............

Are you fucking serious?

That referee was a disgrace and it's been said many times on this board since last night.

We won despite that ref not because of him, he was inconsistent, his calls were bizarre, his watch was in another time zone. Definitely not a professional, and he should be suspended or fired before he btrings any more embarrassment to MLS.

LucaGol
08-10-2008, 09:47 AM
I think we can agree that the ref was just bad.....not really aiding any team.

His blunders basically just cancelled each other out....so in my view at least.....it was a non-issue (if you just look at the end result).

trane
08-10-2008, 10:52 AM
I hope that we play next Sunday, with evryone behind the ball again, except for Barret and/or Dichio. Any player who can not mantain this, should be benched even if it Robert of Guevarra.

ExiledRed
08-10-2008, 10:57 AM
I hope that we play next Sunday, with evryone behind the ball again, except for Barret and/or Dichio. Any player who can not mantain this, should be benched even if it Robert of Guevarra.

No offence Trane, but do we have to be boring to win?

Seriously, playing 11 goalposts on the field, might cut down the goals against, but with our finishing, we have only a snowball's chance of holding out and gaining a goal on the counterattack.

The revs absolutely rape us when we try this, because they are a high pressure team, and they do not allow the other team space to dick around in their own half.

trane
08-10-2008, 11:22 AM
Hey, I am not offended. I understand were you are comming from, most find it boring. I just want to see our team get points on the road. We give up to many easy chances. I agree that we have to be proven as a counter attacking team. But what else has worked for us on the road. At home we have been able to play relatively well both ways. But on the road, we have not been able to do either. I would rather be boring and increase our chances of getting something out of it. When we have attacked on the road we have been made to many mistakes at the back.

As for the Revs style of play you may be right. I just hope that we force them to push up to aggresively, and catch them on the counter. Can we do it I am not sure. But I hope they try it.

koryo
08-10-2008, 11:25 AM
Hey, I am not offended. I understand were you are comming from, most find it boring. I just want to see our team get points on the road. We give up to many easy chances. I agree that we have to be proven as a counter attacking team. But what else has worked for us on the road. At home we have been able to play relatively well both ways. But on the road, we have not been able to do either. I would rather be boring and increase our chances of getting something out of it. When we have attacked on the road we have been made to many mistakes at the back.

As for the Revs style of play you may be right. I just hope that we force them to push up to aggresively, and catch them on the counter. Can we do it I am not sure. But I hope they try it.

I'll take points over style on the road anytime. Of course, it's different when at home.

And Exiled is right about NE. We have to play an aggressive game to even hope to keep them in check.

trane
08-10-2008, 11:40 AM
^ Yeah, I now NE is good, I just do not have a clear mental picture of their game, for some reason I missed alot of the games we played them in.

Bobo
08-10-2008, 11:43 AM
I hope that we play next Sunday, with evryone behind the ball again, except for Barret and/or Dichio. Any player who can not mantain this, should be benched even if it Robert of Guevarra.

Insert anti-Calcio comments here. ______________

giambac
08-10-2008, 02:08 PM
No offence Trane, but do we have to be boring to win?

Seriously, playing 11 goalposts on the field, might cut down the goals against, but with our finishing, we have only a snowball's chance of holding out and gaining a goal on the counterattack.

The revs absolutely rape us when we try this, because they are a high pressure team, and they do not allow the other team space to dick around in their own half.

Trane has it right.

We are on the road next week again and we are short handed.

We have to play a discipline defensive game next week and make sure we take care of our own end first. If an opportunity presents itself then you counter attack.

We don't have to look pretty next week. A tie would be good for us and I say we play not to lose. Let New York make the mistakes.

It's not pretty but given our situation we have to be smart in how we play. At the end of the season, 1 or 2 points may make the difference between making the playoffs.

MrHawk
08-10-2008, 02:17 PM
With all the bad luck, injuries, call-ups and such, a 3 points should give people reason to smile.

Perhaps this is what TFC needs. A victory from seemingly nothing.

Antoshka
08-10-2008, 02:34 PM
ive been saying it since our first game this season, we have TERRIBLE luck. balls bounce off the line, off the post, off cunninghams foot. we had terrible luck! what we had to do was sign an irish leprechaun! well done barret!

I_AM_CANADIAN
08-10-2008, 03:21 PM
You can't defend for ninety minutes, don't be stupid. You don't try to score, you don't win, it's that simple. New York aren't all that bad, if you give them the ball for long enough, they'll find a way to break down the other team. The best way to defend is simply to keep the ball, not sit in front of your area and invite the other team onto you, while crossing your fingers that someone doesn't miss a header or the other team doesn't make a good play.:rolleyes:

I_AM_CANADIAN
08-10-2008, 03:26 PM
Insert anti-Calcio comments here. ______________
Calcio means football in Italian, you're thinking of catenaccio. :P Which actually doesn't involve sitting in front of your area like an idiot, it involves tight positional play, close marking, a general emphasis on defence first, and only attacking when you have a clear-cut opportunity. Which, as Giovanni Trappatoni has proven time and time again, is a strategy doomed to failure in the modern game.

And I'm thanking my lucky stars that trane isn't our manager.

Brooker
08-10-2008, 03:36 PM
im hoping for the Crapids sake that the reason the stadium looked so empty was because everyone was sitting on the TV side.

i was watching the game at some random pub in 'sauga, and i overheard some chick talking to her boyfriend. i heard her asking questions about the league and toronto so i know she had no idea about the sport. she says "omg, theres nobody there! where is everyone?"

teams like the crapids make the league look retarded.

MrHawk
08-10-2008, 04:45 PM
Colorado Rockies had a game at the same time vs San Diego.

Only other reason I can think

ochos
08-10-2008, 05:25 PM
You guys are right.. it's on the road so we need to be patient and tight.

If anyone's noticed tho nothing is set in stone. We lost 2 heartbreakers on the road that should have been ties, and obviously valuable points. Still, I say come into this NY game with heart and confidence to score, it's not like the shite bulls have played great at home this year...

did they not lose to shitcago 5-1 earlier this year???

and if i'm not mistaken, was there not a certain someone who scored (twice?) in that game??

trane
08-10-2008, 05:29 PM
Calcio means football in Italian, you're thinking of catenaccio. :P Which actually doesn't involve sitting in front of your area like an idiot, it involves tight positional play, close marking, a general emphasis on defence first, and only attacking when you have a clear-cut opportunity. Which, as Giovanni Trappatoni has proven time and time again, is a strategy doomed to failure in the modern game.

And I'm thanking my lucky stars that trane isn't our manager.

Every time I read you posts I want to tell you a couple of words in Italian, but I hestitate as I want to keep it civil. Lets see, Trane said we shoudl defend first, and then we will win. Sunday we defended first, and amazingly we won. How about that, what a miracle.

But acctualy no this is something that the Italian game, and not only the old Cantenaccio system had know for years. Something that as kids in Italy we are taught since we touch the ball. But I am sure that you know more about that then me I Am Canadian, you after all seem to be Canadian of Italian heritage, and not like me a poor immigrant wop, who has come here to be educated by the likes of you. After what the fuck do we learn in our country about Calcio. We need to be educated by you great North Americans. You have all the answers. You are right defending does not involve siting infront of the goal like morons, but it does involve when you are a decimated team, to play back and to waite for the oppotunity. I do not know if you noticed in your infinite wisdon, but we are not Milan or Inter, nor even you small town team Udinese. We do not have Di Natale. We have to play to our ability. We must control what we can.

Yeah, becasuse we finaly defended on the road, for 90 minutes and we won. I like how you keep on putting words in my mouth. That is exaclty what I said, lets stand in front of our goal like morons.

I will concede Trappatoni is excesive, but most Italian coaches are defense first. Donadoni tried something new, I am sure you liked him and the shit he talked. What did his phylosphy give us. Exciting footbal, for the Dutch, a humilation for us Italians. A humilation that I do not remember. How did we play the eventual champions Spain, and take them to penalties. AGAIN A MIRACLE WE DEFENDED FOR 90 MINUTES. MIRACLE OF MIRACLES DEFENSE WINS FOOTBALL GAMES. MA CHI LO CREDEREBE, INCREBILE. NOI ITALIANI LO ABBIAMO SEMPRE SAPUTO.


Why don't you teach me about football, and then maybe you can teach me Italian as well, I am sure you know more about that as well. Maybe my IQ will aslo improve with you help. After all I come to these boards not to discuss football with others, but to be educated by experts such as you. Funny thing is I have never denegrated someones elses views, or called someone a leafs fans. Maybe I am just to stupid for that. Obviuosly to a great man of intelect such as yourselve, everyone elses ideas must seem stupid.

giambac
08-10-2008, 06:44 PM
Calcio means football in Italian, you're thinking of catenaccio. :P Which actually doesn't involve sitting in front of your area like an idiot, it involves tight positional play, close marking, a general emphasis on defence first, and only attacking when you have a clear-cut opportunity. Which, as Giovanni Trappatoni has proven time and time again, is a strategy doomed to failure in the modern game.

And I'm thanking my lucky stars that trane isn't our manager.

4 time world champions my friend. Count them 4.:hump:

Oh yeah, they are looking good in the Olympics also:hump:,

Oh yeah and who had to go out and get an Italian coach fro their national team and develop our system.........

trane
08-10-2008, 07:04 PM
^ The sad think Giambac, is I think that I_AM_CANADIAN is of Italian Heritage. He just seems to whant to prove something every time he posts.

I do not disagree with some of the things he says, he just always has to be right about everything.

trane
08-10-2008, 07:29 PM
Calcio means football in Italian, you're thinking of catenaccio. :P Which actually doesn't involve sitting in front of your area like an idiot, it involves tight positional play, close marking, a general emphasis on defence first, and only attacking when you have a clear-cut opportunity. Which, as Giovanni Trappatoni has proven time and time again, is a strategy doomed to failure in the modern game.

And I'm thanking my lucky stars that trane isn't our manager.


By the way Trappatoni, has a pretty good career going, for someone who is doomed for failure. Sure he did relatively poorely with the National team, but he is still coaching. There must be alot of idiots in Football, you need to teach them as well.

Your statement while not identical is very similar to Donadoni, who took over the national team , claiming that defensive soccer cannot win in the modern game. Did he ever prove me wrong. What a great showing at the Euro's.

Listen you are entitled to your opinion, but this you are stupid if you disagree with me, and I am the final word in football shit, has to stop.

I_AM_CANADIAN
08-12-2008, 12:44 PM
Lippi played smart defensive football, keeping possession of the ball and playing a cautious short passing game, and (gasp!) he won the World Cup as well as rather a lot of trophies with Juve. I don't know whether you saw the 2002 World Cup or Euro 2004, but Trappatoni's strategy of sitting back and waiting to be broken down by the other team's attackers didn't work so well. Cesare Maldini tried the same thing in 1998, and probably the most talented attacking Italian team ever (Del Piero, Baggio, Chiesa, Vieri and Inzaghi were his options up front, it doesn't get better than that in world football) ended up going out to France on penalties in the quarterfinal. The strategy of sitting in front of your area for ninety minutes is one that a decent team will always find a way to beat. Sure, we need to be defensive, but not like that.

And I don't have to be right about everything. The reason I disagree with your posts is because you're always preaching extremes, we either have to do something completely one way or the other. Often the best way is somewhere in the middle.

And yes, I am of Italian heritage, my grandparents are from the province of Pordenone in Friuli. And I'm ashamed to say that I speak very little Italian, when I was little I actually only spoke Italian (my mom had to translate for me, apparently it was pretty funny...) but you know, when you start going to preschool and kindergarten you lose it.:(

trane
08-12-2008, 01:24 PM
^ As I said Trappatoni was extreme. I am not preaching that we just defend, and hope for the best. But when you are starting out as we are I would rather build from a strong defensive basis. Particullarly when you are fielding a second string team as we currenlty are. We start by defending and we build from there.

I will also agree that the catenaccio can back fire in tournament, as you can tie a game down that you end up in draws, and then it comes down to penalties, which is probelematic. But we did get to the finals in 1994 basicaly playing that way, and almost won.

I like the current Italian systems, defense first, strong at the back, but which can create offensive opportuniteis. In some ways I think that is what Carver is trying to do. But we will not have the horese to do so for a while.