TFC 2023-2024 player off-season roster discussion

[Oldtimer]

For discussion of trades, rumours, and roster construction.

[Oldtimer]

John Herdman's first move was sending back Ibarra, it will be interesting to see what moves he makes next.

https://twitter.com/johnmolinaro/status/1712510225561854284

[MikeForbes]

My new favorite thread.

[rydermike]

To do list:
Everyone out

People who can stay:
Coello and Kerr (ideally as subs not starters)
Gavran

[MikeForbes]

The number one need if Herdman insists on playing a 3 at the back system are at the minimum of 2 CBs. And no, Vitoria isn't one of them.

[leedsandTFC]

Get the Italians out

[los sonadores]

What exactly to do with the Italians is the defining question, no doubt. And how long have we been crying out for a striker? I mean a real, fully formed and good one.

[SenorDingDong]

To do list:
Everyone out

People who can stay:
Coello and Kerr (ideally as subs not starters)
Gavran

We know Osorio is staying. But my list to start off next season would be similar:

Gavran
Coello
Kerr
Prince
Cash

[SenorDingDong]

Just going to throw this here. Insigne and Berna I guess couldn't even be bothered to join Michael for his final photo...

https://twitter.com/djcuse/status/1715934098966118723

[OgtheDim]

My Stay, Need, Out lists by position

(Fantasy lists - not everybody we wish could be dropped would be taken up)

GK

Stay
Gavran - potential
Johnson - can still play - good teacher and a quiet leader at the back

Need
#3 Canadian young with potential

Out
RanjitSingh - not good enough for MLS - can't handle the speed
Romero - not as good as Johnson or Gavran


Defenders

Stay
Guitterez - useful as a WB
Petretta - useful as an LCB
Franklin - needs to be platooned at RB - not a nailed on starter
O'Neil - #3 back up CB

Need
Solid fast CB
Sold experienced CB
Starting RB
LB platoon option

Out
Rosted - can't handle the uncertainty of MLS positioning
Mabika - attitude & technique both not there



Mids

Stay
Osorio - grit, positionally more aware then many, bleeds for the badge
Coello - platoon not starter - good passer who finds space - defensively weak both in tackling and in positioning
Blessing - speed on wing behind forwards option - not a starter
Insigne - as an Am in a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-2 diamond - fantasy list but this might work - not sure he would be comfortable in the midst so much but he's a luxury out on the left on his own now


Need
Experienced or young DP DM
Experienced or young DP box to box
Wingers for a 2 person attack


Out
Antonoglu - not MLS level
Thompson - isn't going to get there to this level
Servania - can't handle adversity & for age, should be better
Vasquez - assuming he is retiring
JMR - trade him or loan him - not good enough


Forwards

Keep
Owusu - strong with quality hold up play and can leap and compete in the air
Mailula - potential - BUT - we really really don't know about this one and as much as people like to say he's great - we don't know
Kerr - platoon


Need
Experienced DP forward / playmaker
Old MLS vet to platoon in (yeh, I'm calling it - Kei Kamara for 1 final year)
Speedy attacker backup to change things around


Out
Insigne - either moves to AM or out - unlikely to happen but as forward, he doesn't produce enough anymore
Bernadeschi - doesn't fit MLS - the one time his tricks work every 7 games isn't good enough
Peruzza - Saw a Black Flag sticker on a Cadillac
Mbongue - not going to get to MLS level
Sapong - notice he was out of the lineup last night so assuming he's gone no matter what
Akinola - 2020 is not going to happen again

[OgtheDim]

Just going to throw this here. Insigne and Berna I guess couldn't even be bothered to join Michael for his final photo...

https://twitter.com/djcuse/status/1715934098966118723



FWIW

There's about 7 players on the roster not on loan missing from that pic including Sapong & Servania & Vasquez at first glance.

&

Insigne & Bernadeschi have gone down the tunnel early from day 1 here - I noticed it in there first home games - they had to be told to come to the south.

[OgtheDim]

Oh, and before somebody suggests it

Pass on Josef Martinez - never came back from the ACL

[ensco]

My Stay, Need, Out lists by position

(Fantasy lists - not everybody we wish could be dropped would be taken up)

GK

Stay
Gavran - potential
Johnson - can still play - good teacher and a quiet leader at the back

Need
#3 Canadian young with potential

Out
RanjitSingh - not good enough for MLS - can't handle the speed
Romero - not as good as Johnson or Gavran


Defenders

Stay
Guitterez - useful as a WB
Petretta - useful as an LCB
Franklin - needs to be platooned at RB - not a nailed on starter
O'Neil - #3 back up CB

Need
Solid fast CB
Sold experienced CB
Starting RB
LB platoon option

Out
Rosted - can't handle the uncertainty of MLS positioning
Mabika - attitude & technique both not there



Mids

Stay
Osorio - grit, positionally more aware then many, bleeds for the badge
Coello - platoon not starter - good passer who finds space - defensively weak both in tackling and in positioning
Blessing - speed on wing behind forwards option - not a starter
Insigne - as an Am in a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-2 diamond - fantasy list but this might work - not sure he would be comfortable in the midst so much but he's a luxury out on the left on his own now


Need
Experienced or young DP DM
Experienced or young DP box to box
Wingers for a 2 person attack


Out
Antonoglu - not MLS level
Thompson - isn't going to get there to this level
Servania - can't handle adversity & for age, should be better
Vasquez - assuming he is retiring


Forwards

Keep
Owusu - strong with quality hold up play and can leap and compete in the air
Mailula - potential - BUT - we really really don't know about this one and as much as people like to say he's great - we don't know
Kerr - platoon


Need
Experienced DP forward / playmaker
Old MLS vet to platoon in (yeh, I'm calling it - Kei Kamara for 1 final year)
Speedy attacker backup to change things around


Out
Insigne - either moves to AM or out - unlikely to happen but as forward, he doesn't produce enough anymore
Bernadeschi - doesn't fit MLS - the one time his tricks work every 7 games isn't good enough
Peruzza - Saw a Black Flag sticker on a Cadillac
Mbongue - not going to get to MLS level
Sapong - notice he was out of the lineup last night so assuming he's gone no matter what

I like the Insigne to AM suggestion. He is not beating guys one on one on the wing.

Disagree re Petretta. Not good enough. Suspect his contract is a big problem (“big” in normal MLS terms, TFC “big contract problem” is a whole other thing)

Deeply suspicious that Mailula is already a bust, for reasons we will learn after the fact. The clue is that nobody is saying a word. The guys name never even gets mentioned.

Johnson should be moved to good team. Out of respect for the guy. This is not what he came for. He still is part of the USMNT, but will never get games playing behind this defence. In fact I believe he played yesterday to show suitors that he doesn’t have a long-term injury problem.

I bet Herdman brings in Crépeau.

[SenorDingDong]

In regards to SJ, I think they should approach him similar to Hedges. Ask what he wants and if we can get a lot of value back should pull the trigger. He's still a top keeper in this league.

[MikeForbes]

Expecting big changes this offseason. As of right now we only have one young DP spot available. Gotta assume Ayo isn't gonna be retained by San Jose. He has continued to greatly struggle there.

[ag futbol]

My big picture thoughts are this:

Our midfield is horrific. Other than striker, easily the worst part of our team and probably the worst in MLS. I would want one really good signing in the middle of the park, box-to-box or DM. Needs to have the personality of a leader. Preferably a DP. And I would want a second very solid option to play with him.

In defence, it’s a no brainer we need to replace Hedges. Other than that, we need one other guy who provides experience and stability back there. The rest will have to raise their games accordingly.

We need more team speed and more ways to get our forwards the ball in good positions. Owusu may or may not work out, I’d have one eye on the striker positions for next summer’s window.

Both Italians need to go.

Based on Hernandez’s early returns and general profile, I sort of doubt he’s up to the job.

[jloome]

Deeply suspicious that Mailula is already a bust.

Even if he is good enough, I have to question why we signed him if we're never using him. Maybe he's just out of his depth in terms of size and strength, so has limited viability until later in games.

There's definitely some issue there, but I'm not sure who's perceiving what, yet. In his two appearances, he's shown more energy in a handful of minutes than most of our team does all game. The SA League's defending can be USL level, but it also produces good players all over the pitch.

If he's seen as a bust, I'll be suspicious it's another premature judgment, like Shaffelburg, like Russel-Rowe, like Dorsey (two nice goals last night).

I wonder if it's attitudinal. Before he was even here, his agent was saying in the SA press that he saw it as a stepping stone to Europe, which may be true but was poorly timed.

Or maybe we're just blindly ignoring intangibles again. Shaffelburg works in part because he's just unbelievably hard-working and tenacious. His speed is excellent, his technique is good. He might be that kind of player, but often "hard working" seems to have been viewed at our club as a sign of technical limitation. And I highly doubt that's the case.

They also may see him as not really having a spot until the Italians leave. He played wide right forward, mostly, in SA, and occasionally a second striker. But since he's been here, Bernardeschi has played constantly, and at striker, we don't use a two-man front. When someone comes on, it's either going to be the more experienced Owusu -- who fits the target forward mold -- or Kerr, who has five goal this year in limited starts.

So he's number three at striker, possibly number two at right wing. But at the latter, he never gets a shot.



I bet Herdman brings in Crépeau.

Maybe we can scoop him, but why would he want to leave? Again, we'd have to viciously overpay. He's a free agent, so it's possible, but he's won the starting job back there.

And if want to sign him, LAFC will know he has suitors and will probably offer something fairly quickly. Meanwhile, we still have a good keeper in Sean Johnston under contract. So we have to somehow move him before making a move for Crepeau. Otherwise we risk our hand being forced, because he's not going to want to stay once he knows they're shopping for Crepeau, whether we get him or not.

So that would be difficult.

[jloome]

Expecting big changes this offseason. As of right now we only have one young DP spot available. Gotta assume Ayo isn't gonna be retained by San Jose. He has continued to greatly struggle there.

He had less than 60 minutes game time in San Jose. Couldn't crack the squad most games, let alone the starting lineup.

I think we have to accept that he's crocked. He has MLS level potential when he had a third gear and a huge work ethic, but since his injury both seem to be gone.

As for the DP, we'll have a regular DP slot, too, even if we don't move the Italians. We've moved enough off the books to move Osorio back to TAM status.

[FiveThreeTwo]

Basically agree with all the above, good lists

I will add, unless he goes and gets an estaquaio type this winter, one thing that I felt definitely came from a herdman tactics board and was intentional through the first half last night was Coellos role in the midfield.

Dunno if it was cause mb4 shifted back to CB but basically the distribution flowed through Coello for most of the game as the team rebuilt its shape going forward in transition, who was basically played the Toni Kroos tempo setter /metronome role around the park- more then any other games hes been in.

It seemed pretty fundamental to the plan because insigne/berna/mb4/Oso were all laying off short balls to him more then they had before- where they’d previously shrug him and others off and just go for the play themselves. And tbh, in that slot he seemed pretty at home and was building some confidence as the game went on with some trickier direct passes out wide/through channels to beat the lines.

If no other upgrade to coello to start next season, then hes gonna need that DP dmid or b2b like Og mentioned to offset coellos slower pace and lack of defense - that and to just backfill MB4. I assume Oso will be the other mid nailed to the 11

[jloome]

PLAYERS WE SHOULD SHED

Petretta (not good enough)

Mabike (not good enough)

Rosted (too expensive for his ability, he's a backup in this league)

Guitierrez (too expensive for his ability, he's USL level)

Bernardeschi (wrong attitude, not a team player)

Insigne (poor leadership, underproduces)

Mbongue (Just no reason to believe he'll develop into a good striker. Did nothing all year.)

Akinola (He just seems done).

Diomande (a walking injury).



EXPENDABLE PLAYERS (We could keep and develop them or shop them for value, though in this league everyone is expendable)

Franklin (a decent young fullback but lots of holes in his game, we'd need value back)

Thompson (decent defensive midfielder but they haven't grooved a role for him, we'd need value back)

Antonoglou (again, what's his best role? Has potential but nothing to indicate long-term fit)


Singh (CPL level)

O'Neill (journeyman defender, beaten too easily on the run.)

Peruzza (I love the guy but he's not getting better, so far).

Romero (Probably has a decent future. He's young but looks less about him than Gavran).

Servania (journeyman quality midfielder).


PLAYERS WE SHOULD KEEP

Owusu (His tape from Germany last season was pretty good. he should be able to bag 10 on a good team in this league, and he's not expensive.)

Gavran (Looks the future).

Blessing (good engine, decent player. More rotational than starter but can play multiple spots)

Osorio (even playing poorly he has heart, holds the ball up, keeps possession and scores the odd goal).

Coello (He's a good young player. He's not a starter yet and general lack of speed might prevent it. But he does good things most of the time.)

Kerr (Getting better, reminds me of Gyassi Zardes).

Marshall-Rutty (Yeah, I know, but he's only 19, getting bigger and faster, has solid technique. His mindset is not good though. Too petulant this year. )

Batiz ( he has real potential and you can't teach speed).

Pearlman (because it's too early to judge)

Stefanovic (too early to judge.)

Johnson (He's a good keeper still, makes big reaction saves).


PLAYERS ON THIS LIST WHO SHOULD DEFINITELY BE STARTING NEXT YEAR
...

[jloome]

Basically agree with all the above, good lists

I will add, unless he goes and gets an estaquaio type this winter, one thing that I felt definitely came from a herdman tactics board and was intentional through the first half last night was Coellos role in the midfield.

Dunno if it was cause mb4 shifted back to CB but basically the distribution flowed through Coello for most of the game as the team rebuilt its shape going forward in transition, who was basically played the Toni Kroos tempo setter /metronome role around the park- more then any other games hes been in.

It seemed pretty fundamental to the plan because insigne/berna/mb4/Oso were all laying off short balls to him more then they had before- where they’d previously shrug him and others off and just go for the play themselves. And tbh, in that slot he seemed pretty at home and was building some confidence as the game went on with some trickier direct passes out wide/through channels to beat the lines.

If no other upgrade to coello to start next season, then hes gonna need that DP dmid or b2b like Og mentioned to offset coellos slower pace and lack of defense - that and to just backfill MB4. I assume Oso will be the other mid nailed to the 11

Yeah, this is a good spot, dude.

I think one of his first jobs is to break them of the short buildup across zones and to play with directness when opportunities are there. We've been playing up the wings all year, just about ignoring the central midfield, at least in part because Michael was always receiving in the backline, rather than between zones.

So he drops Coello between the middle and back third, giving us a chance to both switch field more quickly and to generally lead whoever is the most open forward.

The problem with it was that the other forwards were always off pace. So whenever a player took the ball into the box, the trailers were always ten feet too deep, slowing everything back down and letting their block set in defensively.

But it was a good try at a new approach. He's probably got a lot of work to do tactically.

[NK Toronto]

As long as Manning and the Italians remain I have no hope that this will become a winning team.

I keep hoping that some wealthy soccer fan somewhere in the world makes MLSE an offer they can't refuse and buys the club, and then changes the name, colours, and logo. The legacy this club has is one of incompetence that is not worth preserving. It's time to start over.

[Bushmancan]

Look on the bright side. In addition to Transmrkt, Manning now has chatGPT to ask how to build a team.

[Prof]

If we are unable to dump contracts or make trades and must proceed with the players we have, I'd definately change formation. Insigne cannot beat anyone wide, neither can Bernadeschi and neither one can make a cross to our striker. I'd switch to a 4-3-1-2 with Insigne playing the floater role behind the strikers, like Giovinco did and I'd give Berna a try as a striker partner to Prince.
Gavran
Guitterez-O'Neil-Mabika-Petretta
Blessing -Coello -Mailula
Insigne
Bernadeschi-Owusu

Out- Sapong,Mbongue, Peruzza, Thompson, Diomande

[OgtheDim]

.../

I keep hoping that some wealthy soccer fan somewhere in the world makes MLSE an offer they can't refuse and buys the club, and then changes the name, colours, and logo.....

Take a hike with this attitude.

Seriously, ..go away with this.

We are Toronto FC

We are the Reds.


You want something different, go support York.

[gracos]

Did we use our contract buyout for the year and if not should we use it and on whom, or should we avoid using it

[leedsandTFC]

Did we use our contract buyout for the year and if not should we use it and on whom, or should we avoid using it

definitely diomande.

players i suspect (or know) will not be here next year:

bradley
vazquez
diomande
sapong
mabika
ibarra (already left)
insigne and bernardeschi (i know money makes it tough, but when both sides want an outcome, feel like it happens)
sean johnson
akinola
perruzza

insigne and berna the ones im least sure about due to huge wages.

just feel like theyve mentally checked out.

[NK Toronto]

Take a hike with this attitude.

Seriously, ..go away with this.

We are Toronto FC

We are the Reds.


You want something different, go support York.

TFC has worn 3 jerseys this year and not one of them was red. I prefer a winning team.

[gracos]

maybe one of the positives finishing in dead last, is we get top draft pick in upcoming superdraft, End of year waivers, and Re-Entry process, sort of like a restart, as long as Manning stays out of the way, and lets Herdman and his team make the decisions, if Manning doesnt stay out of the way im certain next year wont be much better than how this season ended

[Ultra & Proud]

Not sure why people are worried about Manning getting involved & screwing up our various draft possibilities. He's literally never done that before and it's not what he's done to ruin us. His problem is selecting his pals or USMNT alumni to run everything while he goes AWOL plus he selected 2 (or 3) of the worst DPs in MLS history.

Keep him away from DPs, minus going to fancy restaurants of course and let him stay in the back working on more MLSE grifts and we should be okay. Maybe. Still don't have a lot of faith in Hernandez.

[ag futbol]

Not sure why people are worried about Manning getting involved & screwing up our various draft possibilities. He's literally never done that before and it's not what he's done to ruin us. His problem is selecting his pals or USMNT alumni to run everything while he goes AWOL plus he selected 2 (or 3) of the worst DPs in MLS history.

Keep him away from DPs, minus going to fancy restaurants of course and let him stay in the back working on more MLSE grifts and we should be okay. Maybe. Still don't have a lot of faith in Hernandez.
Allegedly, if you believe the insider who occasionally posts here (who has been proven right before), he’s the only reason we signed Kamar Lawrence. Nobody else wanted him.

His job is on the line. I wouldn’t trust him just to say out of it.

[FootBallAZ]

maybe one of the positives finishing in dead last, is we get top draft pick in upcoming superdraft, End of year waivers, and Re-Entry process, sort of like a restart, as long as Manning stays out of the way, and lets Herdman and his team make the decisions, if Manning doesnt stay out of the way im certain next year wont be much better than how this season ended


Unfortunately last year TFC proven to give away and anchor themselves with a devaluing asset on a bad contract. could have had CB bombito for example.

If manning is leading the charge- we all know a quick fix to stop the bleeding is around the corner- like trading a 1st pick for Josef Martinez LOL>

[FootBallAZ]

PLAYERS WE SHOULD SHED

Petretta (not good enough)

Mabike (not good enough)

Rosted (too expensive for his ability, he's a backup in this league)

Guitierrez (too expensive for his ability, he's USL level)

Bernardeschi (wrong attitude, not a team player)

Insigne (poor leadership, underproduces)

Mbongue (Just no reason to believe he'll develop into a good striker. Did nothing all year.)

Akinola (He just seems done).

Diomande (a walking injury).



EXPENDABLE PLAYERS (We could keep and develop them or shop them for value, though in this league everyone is expendable)

Franklin (a decent young fullback but lots of holes in his game, we'd need value back)

Thompson (decent defensive midfielder but they haven't grooved a role for him, we'd need value back)

Antonoglou (again, what's his best role? Has potential but nothing to indicate long-term fit)


Singh (CPL level)

O'Neill (journeyman defender, beaten too easily on the run.)

Peruzza (I love the guy but he's not getting better, so far).

Romero (Probably has a decent future. He's young but looks less about him than Gavran).

Servania (journeyman quality midfielder).


PLAYERS WE SHOULD KEEP

Owusu (His tape from Germany last season was pretty good. he should be able to bag 10 on a good team in this league, and he's not expensive.)

Gavran (Looks the future).

Blessing (good engine, decent player. More rotational than starter but can play multiple spots)

Osorio (even playing poorly he has heart, holds the ball up, keeps possession and scores the odd goal).

Coello (He's a good young player. He's not a starter yet and general lack of speed might prevent it. But he does good things most of the time.)

Kerr (Getting better, reminds me of Gyassi Zardes).

Marshall-Rutty (Yeah, I know, but he's only 19, getting bigger and faster, has solid technique. His mindset is not good though. Too petulant this year. )

Batiz ( he has real potential and you can't teach speed).

Pearlman (because it's too early to judge)

Stefanovic (too early to judge.)

Johnson (He's a good keeper still, makes big reaction saves).


PLAYERS ON THIS LIST WHO SHOULD DEFINITELY BE STARTING NEXT YEAR
...


LOL ^^

this right here!

[Ultra & Proud]

Allegedly, if you believe the insider who occasionally posts here (who has been proven right before), he’s the only reason we signed Kamar Lawrence. Nobody else wanted him.

His job is on the line. I wouldn’t trust him just to say out of it.

At some point even the dumbest executive would have to realize what he has been doing isn't working. I think he is at the point that he has to have his fate decided by his underlings. However if we manage to dump the Italians I could see him dropping his 2 cents in to try to get DPs that sell tickets rather than get ones who fit well and could be good.

[kuku]

Michael Bradley has joined his dad as a coach at Stabek. John Molinaro has posted it.

[JoesphNdo]

Michael Bradley has joined his dad as a coach at Stabek. John Molinaro has posted it.

This is the best move for absolutely every party. I wish him nothing but the best and if he proves himself as a coach elsewhere bring him back for TFC for sure

[jloome]

Unfortunately last year TFC proven to give away and anchor themselves with a devaluing asset on a bad contract. could have had CB bombito for example.

If manning is leading the charge- we all know a quick fix to stop the bleeding is around the corner- like trading a 1st pick for Josef Martinez LOL>

Bombito has spent most of this season in MLS Next Pro, after being unable to hold onto his starting gig. But he's young and we could probably get him, given he hasn't stuck yet.

[jloome]

This is the best move for absolutely every party. I wish him nothing but the best and if he proves himself as a coach elsewhere bring him back for TFC for sure

I don't think it's a good look, taking a nepotism job, but everyone has to start somewhere, and it's also pretty normal in football.

[jloome]

Allegedly, if you believe the insider who occasionally posts here (who has been proven right before), he’s the only reason we signed Kamar Lawrence. Nobody else wanted him.

His job is on the line. I wouldn’t trust him just to say out of it.

Kemar was Ali Curtis, all the way.

[SenorDingDong]

I don't think it's a good look, taking a nepotism job, but everyone has to start somewhere, and it's also pretty normal in football.

Maybe his Dad is going to retire in a year or two then Michael takes over?


From his press conference and talking about new adventures I thought it was pretty obvious he was leaving North America.

[JoesphNdo]

I don't think it's a good look, taking a nepotism job, but everyone has to start somewhere, and it's also pretty normal in football.

Yeah you have to balance bad look with how much better an opportunity it was vs others he'd have gotten. As I said elsewhere, I think if this is super short term and he's not working with his dad 2 years from now it could be a good start for him

Also do wonder if the succession plan was Bob to Michael here, as some suspect, and maybe they're angling to do the same thing in Norway. If so, yeah nepotism and yeah it's a bad look, but a path to management with zero experience is a hard thing to say no to. If you get the job and do well nobody will care about how you got it - nobody cares that Jose Mourinho got his first coaching gig because he had a good relationship with Bobby Robson as his translator and he worked his way into management from there (Okay not a perfect analogy, but it was someone who got an opportunity he maybe wouldn't have otherwise through his network rather than anything he'd proven, and nobody holds that against him now)

Mind you, if he gets the job and fucks it up, his management career may be over before it starts, but that's the gamble

[Ultra & Proud]

Kemar was Ali Curtis, all the way.
And Armas. Total NYRB connect.

That's not Manning's MO.

He only actively interferes with the roster when it comes to DPs and his fail rate is HIGH.

[Mikmacdo]

Bombito has spent most of this season in MLS Next Pro, after being unable to hold onto his starting gig. But he's young and we could probably get him, given he hasn't stuck yet.
Thats just not true at all. He only played 4 games in MLS next pro. Partly to get some fitness back after injuring his knee early in the season. He ended up starting a decent amount for Colorado.

[Mikmacdo]

PLAYERS WE SHOULD SHED

Petretta (not good enough)

Mabike (not good enough)

Rosted (too expensive for his ability, he's a backup in this league)

Guitierrez (too expensive for his ability, he's USL level)

Bernardeschi (wrong attitude, not a team player)

Insigne (poor leadership, underproduces)

Mbongue (Just no reason to believe he'll develop into a good striker. Did nothing all year.)

Akinola (He just seems done).

Diomande (a walking injury).



EXPENDABLE PLAYERS (We could keep and develop them or shop them for value, though in this league everyone is expendable)

Franklin (a decent young fullback but lots of holes in his game, we'd need value back)

Thompson (decent defensive midfielder but they haven't grooved a role for him, we'd need value back)

Antonoglou (again, what's his best role? Has potential but nothing to indicate long-term fit)


Singh (CPL level)

O'Neill (journeyman defender, beaten too easily on the run.)

Peruzza (I love the guy but he's not getting better, so far).

Romero (Probably has a decent future. He's young but looks less about him than Gavran).

Servania (journeyman quality midfielder).


PLAYERS WE SHOULD KEEP

Owusu (His tape from Germany last season was pretty good. he should be able to bag 10 on a good team in this league, and he's not expensive.)

Gavran (Looks the future).

Blessing (good engine, decent player. More rotational than starter but can play multiple spots)

Osorio (even playing poorly he has heart, holds the ball up, keeps possession and scores the odd goal).

Coello (He's a good young player. He's not a starter yet and general lack of speed might prevent it. But he does good things most of the time.)

Kerr (Getting better, reminds me of Gyassi Zardes).

Marshall-Rutty (Yeah, I know, but he's only 19, getting bigger and faster, has solid technique. His mindset is not good though. Too petulant this year. )

Batiz ( he has real potential and you can't teach speed).

Pearlman (because it's too early to judge)

Stefanovic (too early to judge.)

Johnson (He's a good keeper still, makes big reaction saves).


PLAYERS ON THIS LIST WHO SHOULD DEFINITELY BE STARTING NEXT YEAR
...
Owusu made 700k in guaranteed comp and his salary was 600k. He basically had one decent year in the B2 and wasn't anything special in the 3 liga. Another trash signing.

[rydermike]

Owusu made 700k in guaranteed comp and his salary was 600k. He basically had one decent year in the B2 and wasn't anything special in the 3 liga. Another trash signing.
I'm hoping that number from MLSPA is just due to proration. 700k is way too high. I'm hoping it's something like 300k a year, but they agreed to give him a full 300k for this half played season, so it was 700k prorated to 300k and then starting next year it will be 300. Probably not, but one can hope.

[leedsandTFC]

Owusu made 700k in guaranteed comp and his salary was 600k. He basically had one decent year in the B2 and wasn't anything special in the 3 liga. Another trash signing.

Owusu made 300k from Toronto fc this season not 700k, MLSPA salaries are annualized.

He has an 18 month deal I wouldn't be shocked if whole thing was worth like 650 to 700k but they frontloaded it.

But then again we thought Diomande would be on league minimum so who knows with this club.

[ensco]

And Armas. Total NYRB connect.

That's not Manning's MO.

He only actively interferes with the roster when it comes to DPs and his fail rate is HIGH.

If it were true that the DPs were Manning’s decision, would Manning still be here?

It seems kind of obvious someone else made those calls.

[Prof]

Owusu made 300k from Toronto fc this season not 700k, MLSPA salaries are annualized.

He has an 18 month deal I wouldn't be shocked if whole thing was worth like 650 to 700k but they frontloaded it.

But then again we thought Diomande would be on league minimum so who knows with this club.

His $700k is amuch better deal the $22 million for the Italian duo.

[los sonadores]

Prince seems another one of our mystery signings at striker. He’s not lame like Diomande, he’s not 35 and should be retired like Sapong, but I don’t yet see any reason he should be here (beyond the fact that we had only 700,000 to spend on a striker and we did it in Europe).

Not an obvious match with the Italians, and no obviously strong play of any kind. He looks like he can run, he looks like he should be able to hold up the ball but there wasn’t any real evidence of it. I didn’t see anything in the air … now maybe he wasn’t given anything in the air (but that’s not likely to change). His touch is mediocre, and he isn’t comfortable with the ball in the build up to goal.

Maybe an example of how analytics, like any method, can screw up. At any rate, analytics only works if you have the other factors: you need real scouting and you need, somewhat, to know the guy. Especially in MLS where taking flyers on European salaries is going to kill you. Okay, maybe it’s too early to tell but I’m not hopeful on this one. Not if he’s our first choice striker. Let’s hope he’s not!

[OgtheDim]

Owusu makes himself available for the ball and competes on every long out by Johnson. He finds space.

His touch I didn't see anything glaring - he's not Sapong bad. His passing from feet in traffic is decent when holding up play but deteriorates as play develops - sign of a person still expecting people to be disciplined and in certain spots.

My biggest issue for him - doesn't go for goal hard when the ball is taken to the line. His move is to hang back at the spot - if he went in and then took a step back, that would be better.

[Areathrasher]

Maybe his Dad is going to retire in a year or two then Michael takes over?


From his press conference and talking about new adventures I thought it was pretty obvious he was leaving North America.

Jeff Bradley said he's going over for a few months to help out and finish off his UEFA badges

[los sonadores]

Owusu makes himself available for the ball and competes on every long out by Johnson. He finds space.

His touch I didn't see anything glaring - he's not Sapong bad. His passing from feet in traffic is decent when holding up play but deteriorates as play develops - sign of a person still expecting people to be disciplined and in certain spots.

My biggest issue for him - doesn't go for goal hard when the ball is taken to the line. His move is to hang back at the spot - if he went in and then took a step back, that would be better.

Maybe Herdman can sort out something that plays to his strengths but I’m not sure that’s going to happen if we keep the Italians (and it seems unlikely we don’t keep them). So far I see either not good enough or not a good enough fit.

And I suppose that leads to the question: what will Herdman do with the Italians? I think one of Herdman’s strengths is motivation. But that seems to be based partly on giving players what they most want. Davies plays striker or winger if that’s what he wants even though it’s clear he’s a poor striker, and not nearly as good a winger as he is a wing back. So far the Italians seem totally to want to play the wings only. If that continues and we don’t have an extremely good and compatible striker, someone they respect, we’re handcuffed. It’s been the same story since they arrived and Prince is not an answer as much as I can see. Hernandez (working alone) didn’t seem to recognize that. His two acquisitions - one who seems inadequate, the other who doesn’t play - have not been promising. Let’s hope he’s better working with Rubio and Herdman.

[Hala Hrvatska]

Jeff Bradley said he's going over for a few months to help out and finish off his UEFA badges

How many of these bradleys have been on the payroll here? Wonder how if any from his mother's side also.

[Oldtimer]

If it were true that the DPs were Manning’s decision, would Manning still be here?

It seems kind of obvious someone else made those calls.

Manning took credit for proposing them, so yes, he's mostly responsible.
However to your point the MLSE board (and maybe the CEO) also share some responsibility as they would have signed off on this. Maybe that gives him an out.

Manning is still in his seat due to the success of the Argos IMO. They've done far better than the low expectations that were there for them.

[SenorDingDong]

Owusu makes himself available for the ball and competes on every long out by Johnson. He finds space.

His touch I didn't see anything glaring - he's not Sapong bad. His passing from feet in traffic is decent when holding up play but deteriorates as play develops - sign of a person still expecting people to be disciplined and in certain spots.

My biggest issue for him - doesn't go for goal hard when the ball is taken to the line. His move is to hang back at the spot - if he went in and then took a step back, that would be better.

From what I seen from Owusu its the same story as everything striker we've played since the Italians got here. Zero service.

Owusu seems motived and strong, but if the ball never reaches him nothings happening.

[Areathrasher]

How many of these bradleys have been on the payroll here? Wonder how if any from his mother's side also.
Check out Jeff's Twitter. He's interacting with people on criticisms of Bob - biased obviously but some interesting bits in the replies
https://x.com/JBradley08736?t=K4BrkcWxEr8z2OesY2rtqw&s=09

[JoesphNdo]

Check out Jeff's Twitter. He's interacting with people on criticisms of Bob - biased obviously but some interesting bits in the replies
https://x.com/JBradley08736?t=K4BrkcWxEr8z2OesY2rtqw&s=09

A fascinating insight into camp Bradley, really crystallizes the Bradley vs the Italians lockerroom that existed. He probably shouldn't be tweeting like this, but it's more insight than we get from anywhere else

[Ultra & Proud]

Manning took credit for proposing them, so yes, he's mostly responsible.
However to your point the MLSE board (and maybe the CEO) also share some responsibility as they would have signed off on this. Maybe that gives him an out.

The difference is that he is supposed to be thinking of the footballing aspect of the signings, which he didn't do and he apparently never bothered looking into their character. I guess for him, Transfermarkt and visions of increased revenue streams was enough.

For sure the board signed off on this but they weren't fed stats on how the Italians would fit in the system, how they'd ignite our offense, or how they'd fit into the dynamic of our team. They were told one guy was the captain of Napoli and won the Euros and the other was a long time Juve guy (like Giovinco) and from that, we'll sell out every match, we can raise ticket prices, and the ad dollars will be huge.

So on the actual football side it's all on Bill.

[ag futbol]

From what I seen from Owusu its the same story as everything striker we've played since the Italians got here. Zero service.

Owusu seems motived and strong, but if the ball never reaches him nothings happening.
Someone made the point on Twitter the other day, Jimenez’s form dried up exactly when the Italian’s arrived. To be fair, he struck me as more of a support striker or winger than someone who would lead the line but nonetheless…

Pretty ridiculous that the entire premise of not getting a DP striker was the service from the wings would be so great. Reality is it’s been awful.

[jloome]

Thats just not true at all. He only played 4 games in MLS next pro. Partly to get some fitness back after injuring his knee early in the season. He ended up starting a decent amount for Colorado.

According to Transfermarket, he had 11 appearances and eight starts all season.

Do you have a source that says otherwise?

Edit: No, I've checked, that's right.

In those 11 appearances, he got five yellow cards and a red. Across the eight starts, including cup games, he committed 15 fouls. Sounds like discipline issues, too.

[jloome]

Owusu made 700k in guaranteed comp and his salary was 600k. He basically had one decent year in the B2 and wasn't anything special in the 3 liga. Another trash signing.

You've judged him trash on 250 minutes of playing time, which seems unwise.

[jloome]

From what I seen from Owusu its the same story as everything striker we've played since the Italians got here. Zero service.

Owusu seems motived and strong, but if the ball never reaches him nothings happening.

He has 250 minutes of playing time with zero team chemistry and no service.

He's a decent striker, and has shown it on a better team than this one.

But it's pretty hard to judge a striker who hasn't played, effectively, and barely saw the ball in that 250 minutes.

[JoesphNdo]

Someone made the point on Twitter the other day, Jimenez’s form dried up exactly when the Italian’s arrived. To be fair, he struck me as more of a support striker or winger than someone who would lead the line but nonetheless…

Pretty ridiculous that the entire premise of not getting a DP striker was the service from the wings would be so great. Reality is it’s been awful.

I love to dunk on the Italian performances as much as anyone, but Jiminez regressed to form. His career stats, and how much he absurdly outperformed his xG in that stretch, told us that goalscoring run was a freak run. He's a support forward, 1 in 3 is a good season type forward, not a goal a game guy. Italians or no Italians, his goals were going to dry up and that output was unsustainable

Owusu is an interesting one, way way too early to call him bad, but his goal scoring record is...pretty awful, there is no track record there that screams 'just wait, he'll turn it around'. I don't see it based on that and what I've seen so far, he's a worker but I don't see quality, but he needs more minutes before writing him off. My guess is he is gone by this time next season, but it's a guess, and he should be given time to prove himself - nobody here has seen enough to really know for sure

[jloome]

Owusu is an interesting one, way way too early to call him bad, but his goal scoring record is...pretty awful, there is no track record there that screams 'just wait, he'll turn it around'.

You can't go on his total appearances there. He got junk minutes for three straight years before last season. If you add it up, it averages to less than 15 minutes per game.

When the striker ahead of him got injured last year, he came in late in the season and scored 7 goals in his last 10 starts.

Basically, they bought him pretty young as a good prospect to have stepped down from the Bundesliga, and then he got benched behind more experienced and consistent players.

A fan told me he had a shot to start at the beginning of the season, didn't score for a few and lost his confidence. Then the injury gave him a shot at redemption and he was their strongest player down the stretch.

I agree he's not a dead cert, but it's way too early to judge how he can do in this league.

[JoesphNdo]

You can't go on his total appearances there. He got junk minutes for three straight years before last season. If you add it up, it averages to less than 15 minutes per game.

When the striker ahead of him got injured last year, he came in late in the season and scored 7 goals in his last 10 starts.

Basically, they bought him pretty young as a good prospect to have stepped down from the Bundesliga, and then he got benched behind more experienced and consistent players.

A fan told me he had a shot to start at the beginning of the season, didn't score for a few and lost his confidence. Then the injury gave him a shot at redemption and he was their strongest player down the stretch.

For sure, not a write off, but looking at career goals vs games does not paint a pretty picture - it amounts to one decent stretch. So I get the skepticism, and I share it. The flipside is he was getting alot of games despite his record, so he was presumably bringing something to the table.

But there's always caveats and none of us here were monitoring his career enough to know for sure. Like I said, if I'm guessing, I think he's not an MLS quality striker. But that's a guess. I still want to give the guy time to prove himself. I definitely don't agree with writing him off at this stage at all, somebody obviously saw something in him.

Basically, I don't think he's the guy, but nobody here has seen enough to know, and I wouldn't judge his output harshly based on minutes on this absolute dumpster fire.

[jloome]

I wouldn't judge his output harshly based on minutes on this absolute dumpster fire.

Which is sensible, as we've hardly seen him.

Sapong was pretty easy to judge, because we'd seen him for years (mostly as a winger; he only converted to striker at SKC). And Sapong was a terrible striker.

Owusu's movement alone suggests he's better than that. He also presses more than Sapong bothered to do (and well more than Kerr; Kerr's defensive work rate isn't great, goal scoring notwitstanding.)

[leedsandTFC]

i don't know how, but we need to get rid of the italians.

nothing will improve, or the improvements will be severely limited if we don't do that.

[Ultra & Proud]

i don't know how, but we need to get rid of the italians.

nothing will improve, or the improvements will be severely limited if we don't do that.
Demote to TFC2 and eat the money until the Italians decide the embarrassment of flying coach (force it) and taking shitty buses to places like Tacoma to play on a baseball diamond isn't worth the remaining money on the contracts.

[leedsandTFC]

Demote to TFC2 and eat the money until the Italians decide the embarrassment of flying coach (force it) and taking shitty buses to places like Tacoma to play on a baseball diamond isn't worth the remaining money on the contracts.

if we had 2 DPs contributing at a high level this season we genuinely could have been a good team.

first half of the season we weren't giving away many goals, but barely scoring.

so many ties should have been wins with contributing DPs.

get them out and let sean rubio pick the next ones.

[FiveThreeTwo]

Im definitely in the camp of giving the striker role the benefit of the doubt including Owuso because our entire system was trash tier for strikers under Bob and even armas lol.

Service was trash, systems and movement from team mates were greedy and unconventional for most strikers. Italians only wanted to support themselves around the box, yelled at every other player why they weren’t wiping their asses in the build up.

Ex. - There were times where the striker should have run into a back/near post run to get ready for a winger/FB cross because the play was developing down the wings Into what looked like an overlap/under lap situation, and most the team mate movements suggested that. Instead insigne/berna would cut inside, and start stomping feet and get mad why the striker isn’t there beside him playing hold-up tiki taka one/twos so he can evade a defender and do a 5% success tiragiro shot lol and the play would usually die. And the odd chance the striker did come deep to be that hold up guy, there were no attacking finishing options even if the Italians got past 1-2 guys lol because the striker was so deep, and other Italian just walking around. Not even adding the lack of dummy runs or team mates helping pull defenders away from #9

even the midfields were directed to pass the ball to the Italians before any sort of killer pass to a striker. So Ima give that position benefit of the doubt, with a real clusterfuck in lack of clarity of what their role should have been. Nobody scored in that striker role this season

[ag futbol]

If MLS rules had any logic to them we should be able to buy out the Italians and spend the difference on new DP’s.

So as an example. If we normally pay Insigne $16 mil in salary and his new contract only pays him $5 mil. We (in theory) pay him the difference of $10 mil and then have $5 million of our own to spend on a new DP.

It’s probably just too embarrassing for Manning to get it authorized from the board to see it happen.

[MikeForbes]

Getting rid of both Italians in this coming window would be a massive accomplishment and probably a task too tall. Focus on getting rid of one this window and the other the next.

[leedsandTFC]

Getting rid of both Italians in this coming window would be a massive accomplishment and probably a task too tall. Focus on getting rid of one this window and the other the next.

i believe bernardeschi's contract is moveable with minimal loss.

insigne's is the one that is borderline unmovable.

we have looked way better with just insigne on the pitch, tbh.

if we can move on bernardeschi and bring in a DP striker with the $$ that would go a long way imo.

[SenorDingDong]

i believe bernardeschi's contract is moveable with minimal loss.

insigne's is the one that is borderline unmovable.

I am somewhat hoping Insigne just takes what he's earned and cuts his losses. Knowing the fans have kind of turned on him too. He would get the unfortunate blite of being known as the worst DP ever in MLS, but it is what it is.

[Ultra & Proud]

I am somewhat hoping Insigne just takes what he's earned and cuts his losses. Knowing the fans have kind of turned on him too. He would get the unfortunate blite of being known as the worst DP ever in MLS, but it is what it is.
He's earned that tag.

[Smokecell]

Anyone know when locker cleanout day is?

[los sonadores]

Which is sensible, as we've hardly seen him.

Sapong was pretty easy to judge, because we'd seen him for years (mostly as a winger; he only converted to striker at SKC). And Sapong was a terrible striker.

Owusu's movement alone suggests he's better than that. He also presses more than Sapong bothered to do (and well more than Kerr; Kerr's defensive work rate isn't great, goal scoring notwitstanding.)

I think that’s a bit of revisionism based on his mostly terrible and worse play with us. I did see him play better with others. All but his first match here when he looked good, scored a goal and worked well with the Italians (if not up to their usual standards of teammate). His combination play with Insigne in particular looked very workable. Together they should have had three that match. After that I suspect mistakes/inconsistency and a toxic room contributed to his downfall. Yes, he won rookie of the year as a winger and was converted a few seasons later but he played much longer as a striker and scored 12 in 2021, 13 in 2019, 16 is 2017. Let’s see if Prince can do that.

Pretty much everything that entered our orbit this season turned to shit. But I’m guessing Prince is not the striker Herdman would have gone out and found. I don’t see anything special there at a position we have desperately needed something special for an absurdly long time.

[ag futbol]

^ I am skeptical of Hernandez. So far he gets one “F” and two incompletes on his player acquisition work. Nothing has been a sure fire hit.

I don’t see any vision behind what he’s doing worth following. Let’s hope he just takes his orders from Herdman or someone else more seasoned.

[jloome]

I think that’s a bit of revisionism based on his mostly terrible and worse play with us. I did see him play better with others. All but his first match here when he looked good, scored a goal and worked well with the Italians (if not up to their usual standards of teammate). His combination play with Insigne in particular looked very workable. Together they should have had three that match. After that I suspect mistakes/inconsistency and a toxic room contributed to his downfall. Yes, he won rookie of the year as a winger and was converted a few seasons later but he played much longer as a striker and scored 12 in 2021, 13 in 2019, 16 is 2017. Let’s see if Prince can do that.

Pretty much everything that entered our orbit this season turned to shit. But I’m guessing Prince is not the striker Herdman would have gone out and found. I don’t see anything special there at a position we have desperately needed something special for an absurdly long time.

Okay, he's been a striker a little longer than I thought. But he had three-double digit seasons in 13 years in the league (and a whole lot of those SKC goals were back post taps ins. )

He had three shots on net for us, Los. Three. Not three goals, three shots.

He was abjectly awful.

Nashville fans had long given up on him, and it wasn't a smart signing.

He's never looked particularly convincing as a target striker. He's just a poacher, and now he has no speed. His runs were awful, often being nowhere near any of three danger zones, and when he got ahead of the ball, he had no idea what do to.

I'll give you that his defensive work rate was better than most, and he did okay at winning the central ball and holding it.

As for Owusu, it's too early to judge. He's played 250 mins on one of the worst teams in league history, nearly all junk at the end of the game. To my memory, he's had three chances. One header was saved, one he put over the bar, and the third he scored but had leaned offside on the build up.

So, early days on him. Same with Mailula. Haven't seen either enough to judge.

[OgtheDim]

Someone made the point on Twitter the other day, Jimenez’s form dried up exactly when the Italian’s arrived. To be fair, he struck me as more of a support striker or winger than someone who would lead the line but nonetheless…

Pretty ridiculous that the entire premise of not getting a DP striker was the service from the wings would be so great. Reality is it’s been awful.

JJ also was less then useful this season at Dallas.

[ag futbol]

JJ also was less then useful this season at Dallas.
Totally fair. My take is his form dipped, we dented his confidence with a lack of service, and the trade set him back further in that department.

If memory serves he’s always been hot and cold. The initial run was overstated and really Pozuelo driven.

Overall, I’d say he’s maybe a 8-12 a season guy if he gets his head right. But it’s a risk nonetheless.

[CorrwgBach]

He's earned that tag.

He came with the nickname "Il Magnifico" any ideas on what it is now. "Il Toxico"?

[jloome]

JJ also was less then useful this season at Dallas.

He was injured for some of it. Broke a bone (wrist?) about three weeks in.

I maintain he'd proven himself a good striker in Poland (he'd only been a striker for three seasons, so his numbers were skewed by that) and he was good for us for half a season.

We change up the team, get rid of the Spanish guy supplying him goals, and he dries up. Well, that's because he's pretty one-dimensional. But he's a good finisher, and that's a rare quality.

If he'd actually gotten decent looks, he might've scored two or three more, at which point he'd be a 12-13 goal striker. We haven't had those too often.

But Dallas immediately moved him to the wing, where he was less effective before coming here.

One-dimensional players can be really valuable (not $1M a season valuable) if they're used in the same way all the time. He hasn't been.

[OgtheDim]

I remember JJ getting cold while Poz was still here - really only decent the first 1/3 of the season - his finishing went cold and his positioning got worse - like he was told to hang back and not go in. He played off the shoulder which was fine - not hold up play though - like none.

[los sonadores]

Okay, he's been a striker a little longer than I thought. But he had three-double digit seasons in 13 years in the league (and a whole lot of those SKC goals were back post taps ins. )

He had three shots on net for us, Los. Three. Not three goals, three shots.

He was abjectly awful.

Nashville fans had long given up on him, and it wasn't a smart signing.

He's never looked particularly convincing as a target striker. He's just a poacher, and now he has no speed. His runs were awful, often being nowhere near any of three danger zones, and when he got ahead of the ball, he had no idea what do to.

I'll give you that his defensive work rate was better than most, and he did okay at winning the central ball and holding it.

As for Owusu, it's too early to judge. He's played 250 mins on one of the worst teams in league history, nearly all junk at the end of the game. To my memory, he's had three chances. One header was saved, one he put over the bar, and the third he scored but had leaned offside on the build up.

So, early days on him. Same with Mailula. Haven't seen either enough to judge.

Yeah, in no way am I suggesting it was a good acquisition (when the hell have we last have one of those!). But three double digit seasons in the six before us (including setting Philly’s record for most goals in a season) and a rookie of the year is not bad. And as you said he could hold the ball up for real (not usual a winger’s skill). We should have gotten more out of him. But we got nothing much out of everyone, of course.

[OgtheDim]

I still think we go for Kai Kamera as a 80th minute forward backup.

[ensco]

I am somewhat hoping Insigne just takes what he's earned and cuts his losses. Knowing the fans have kind of turned on him too. He would get the unfortunate blite of being known as the worst DP ever in MLS, but it is what it is.

I think, for $45M, he’ll stick around and take his lumps

[los sonadores]

I think, for $45M, he’ll stick around and take his lumps

Yeah, probably, though what in the world could anyone do with $45M except give most of it away? This (the money) is certainly where world football becomes weird and grotesque. Would we had better things to do.

[OgtheDim]

I think, for $45M, he’ll stick around and take his lumps

I suspect he'll stick around for 1 or 2 more years then he'll either find a solution or have one provided to him.

BTW, he's nowhere near the worst DP ever in MLS. And he is by no means hated by fans in the stands - he's annoying but not hated.

[ensco]

I suspect he'll stick around for 1 or 2 more years then he'll either find a solution or have one provided to him.

BTW, he's nowhere near the worst DP ever in MLS. And he is by no means hated by fans in the stands - he's annoying but not hated.

He is by far the worst when the contract is considered. I mean, sure, Denilson or Sean Penn were worse, by Insigne is costing 75x what they cost.

When you think about what the amount spent on our two DPs could have bought, if spent even halfway reasonably…

[JoesphNdo]

There is no DP contract worse than Jozys reup, I'll argue that forever. I don't think it's debatable tbh, Insigne doesn't even come close to it, and his contract is bad. But Jozys reup was the worst decision, worst return on investment and worst in terms of money spent vs performance. Aren't we still paying him!? At least Insigne had potential upside when signed, Jozy was a known quantity as being completely done

[ensco]

^I feel like the Altidore misfire is more obvious now than it was in 2019.

He had an offer soon after to go to China and we could have sold him for $10M. There is no world where we are selling Insigne to anybody at a profit!

[TheGoodson]

^I feel like the Altidore misfire is more obvious now than it was in 2019.

He had an offer soon after to go to China and we could have sold him for $10M. There is no world where we are selling Insigne to anybody at a profit!

Did he really have an offer from china or was it just leverage? I say his agent and him made that story up to manipulate our useless FO

[Ultra & Proud]

^I feel like the Altidore misfire is more obvious now than it was in 2019.

It was pretty obvious then. Another knee jerk, fan service PR move by the FO that blew up in their faces. This one seemed like a Manning move.

[ensco]

Did he really have an offer from china or was it just leverage? I say his agent and him made that story up to manipulate our useless FO

Could be.

Anyway, my main point was to argue that, even if you agree that the entire $24M of the last Jozy was “wasted” (an easy position to accept), that sum will still be far less than the amount “wasted” on Insigne.

[JoesphNdo]

Could be.

Anyway, my main point was to argue that, even if you agree that the entire $24M of the last Jozy was “wasted” (an easy position to accept), that sum will still be far less than the amount “wasted” on Insigne.

I think turning down $10m, if it was true, would only add to what a train wreck, fan service, classic Manning decision that was but I too don't believe it was real. His agent is absolutely absurdly good at what he does, though!

I still think Jozys was worse if you go back to the day it was signed, with what we knew at the time. And especially if you go to the second time, didn't we exercise a club option beyond the 2019 contract extension!?!?

It was pretty obvious he was done, he'd always struggled to stay fit even in his prime 25 regular season games was a good season for him and his injury problems had really escalated, I remember somebody here ran the 'minutes played' over the past couple of seasons when they signing was made and it's even uglier than the games played would suggest - and this was after a 13 regular season appearances season. Players don't get less injury prone with age. He would also get suspended quite often too, iirc. Now I love Jozy (when he was fit he was incredible), but this is a 25 game a season, 13-15 goal a season striker in his prime (I don't think he was ever in the top 10 for goals scored in a league season as an example), not some guaranteed 20+ goals striker, and one whose output was seriously waning and who always struggled with injuries

We threw $20+m at a player whose market value was a *fraction* of that, who was a spent force, because Manning panicked about fan service (A lesson he has learned, oh, absolutely nothing from).

Inisigne was also a bad contract when we signed it, but at least there was potential upside. The guys ceiling, when signed, was absolutely Seba levels - a powerhouse in the MVP standings. Now, with MLS revenue, we'd never get a positive ROI on him even with that, but at least there was a possible outcome where this guy lifts us to championships, sells a tonne of seats and wins a couple of MVP trophies.

There was no potential upside with Jozy, and it's not just looking back - many many posters said exactly this at the time, too. If you were able to remove sentiment and love for him it was obvious that that contract was absolutely just utterly insane for the player we actually had. And then we, allegedly, exercised a club option extension on top of it!?

If I'm rating contracts by how good the decision was to spend what was spent at the time the decision was made, knowing what they knew at the time, Jozy is still number 1 for me emphatically. That's without even getting into how it actually played out which was even worse than people thought.

Mind you the fact that we're arguing which one of our boat anchor contracts belongs in the worst mls contract of all time and which is in the second (And we have at least one more, in Fede, that might turn out to be a top 10 contender, too) says it all. The argument of 'Oh no, I think this one of our astronomical fuck ups was the worst, not the other one'

[OgtheDim]

He is by far the worst when the contract is considered. ..

That's not usually how "worst DP ever" is judged - but then I don't consider the size of the contract for any DP a yardstick beyond banter.

[rydermike]

https://www.tfcrepublic.ca/oct-24-toronto-fc-free-agents-contracts/

Here’s the list of TFC players who have a guaranteed contract for 2024: Ayo Akinola, Federico Bernardeschi, Latif Blessing, Adama Diomande, Kobe Franklin, Lorenzo Insigne, Sean Johnson, Deandre Kerr, Cassius Mailula, Jahkeele Marshall-Rutty, Hugo Mbongue, Shane O’Neill, Jonathan Osorio, Prince Owusu, Jordan Perruzza, Raoul Petretta, Sigurd Rosted, Brandon Servania, Luke Singh and Kosi Thompson.

[SenorDingDong]

Ayo, JMR and Hugo to TFC 2?
Diomande should join Bob in Norway.

[jloome]

Liverpool website suggests they look at Griffin Dorsey.

Our player development humiliation is nearing epic completion.

https://www.liverpool.com/liverpool-fc-news/features/liverpool-mls-klopp-carlos-alberto-27978749

[Prof]

Demote to TFC2 and eat the money until the Italians decide the embarrassment of flying coach (force it) and taking shitty buses to places like Tacoma to play on a baseball diamond isn't worth the remaining money on the contracts.

Absolutely the approach Herdman should take. Embarras them for embarrasing us.

[leedsandTFC]

Liverpool website suggests they look at Griffin Dorsey.

Our player development humiliation is nearing epic competion.

https://www.liverpool.com/liverpool-fc-news/features/liverpool-mls-klopp-carlos-alberto-27978749

got to be tongue in cheek, he's 24 lol

[kuku]

I think one player TFC may go after will be Samuel Piette. Montreal are not bringing him back, according to Tony Marinaro, and Herdman really likes him.

[MikeForbes]

This is the kind of guy we should pursue in free agency. He isn't the greatest CB in league history, but is only 25 with lots of experience and a great physical tool set. Especially if Herdman is married to the 3 at the back set up.

https://twitter.com/SoccerInsider/status/1717591197022134586?s=20

[ag futbol]

I think one player TFC may go after will be Samuel Piette. Montreal are not bringing him back, according to Tony Marinaro, and Herdman really likes him.
“Starting in midfield, no. 6, Liaaam Frassssseer”

Don’t shoot the messenger but based on his opportunities to feature with the nats I could see us trying to get him back.

Piette would be okay, bettter than Fraser obviously, but I see a lot more dynamic play at midfield than either of these guys offer.

[MikeForbes]

Hernandez did trade away Fraser's rights, so I am not so sure he rates Liam the same way Herdman does.

Piette has Whitecaps player written all over them since they seem to want to be the CMNT C team (note how little this has helped them sell tickets).

[rydermike]

Hernandez did trade away Fraser's rights, so I am not so sure he rates Liam the same way Herdman does..

That was an automatic trade. When a player wants to come back to MLS but another team owns their rights, MLS forces the 50,000k GAM trade (similar to the Jacen Russell-Rowe rights trade)

[MikeForbes]

That was an automatic trade. When a player wants to come back to MLS but another team owns their rights, MLS forces the 50,000k GAM trade (similar to the Jacen Russell-Rowe rights trade)

Just another terrible roster mechanism MLS needs to do away with. Once you relinquish the player, you shouldn't have any claim to him at all.

[OgtheDim]

We should keep a running list of which CanMNT past or present this thread has suggested / referred to.

That way Liam Fraser doesn't come up every 2 weeks. :)

[jloome]

I think one player TFC may go after will be Samuel Piette. Montreal are not bringing him back, according to Tony Marinaro, and Herdman really likes him.

Quioto and Wanyama, too. Both very good players, although I think the latter is 33 or 34 now, so likely slowing down.

I wonder if he'll surprise us and veer away from Nats. Might see it as biasing his chances of going after the best options.

[los sonadores]

I wonder if he'll surprise us and veer away from Nats. Might see it as biasing his chances of going after the best options.

I hope so. If he wants the best team that’s what he needs to do. But like any manager you’d expect him to include guys that he’s worked with and likes, esp. if the price is right and they fill a positional/tactical need.

I’d be against Liam Fraser but that’s based on how poor he was with us and everyone else… EXCEPT with Herdman. In truth, he did much better with the Nats. He wasn’t a liability and he had passing range. Him and Piette together in the centre of the park almost completely shut down the US at our field.

Richie is the outlier. The one guy who might come back (really is already ‘here’) costing a lot. And who has proven to be effective playing in his home town.

[MikeForbes]

I think the "Herdman will just collect all of the CMNT" idea is a bit overblown. If Jason Hernandez comes to him and says that Dallas is offering us Liam Fraser but Philly is willing to deal Jose Martinez to us for 400k more GAM, he is obviously taking Martinez.

[los sonadores]

I think the "Herdman will just collect all of the CMNT" idea is a bit overblown. If Jason Hernandez comes to him and says that Dallas is offering us Liam Fraser but Philly is willing to deal Jose Martinez to us for 400k more GAM, he is obviously taking Martinez.

Who knows, we might yet set the world record for signing crocked strikers!

So, who is the buyout used on? Striker or defender? I’m thinking Diomande and Akinola are at the top of the list. Will Herdman have a go at working with Akinola? I wouldn’t be surprised if he did, given our roster situation.

[JoesphNdo]

I think the "Herdman will just collect all of the CMNT" idea is a bit overblown. If Jason Hernandez comes to him and says that Dallas is offering us Liam Fraser but Philly is willing to deal Jose Martinez to us for 400k more GAM, he is obviously taking Martinez.

I agree, I don't see it as particularly likely he just signs a bunch of Canadian players just because he managed Canada and we haven't been given any reason to believe he will. I'm actually more worried about Bill "Fan service" Manning on that front, but we'll see

[woolly]

Apologies in advance for the negativity.:facepalm:

Since we have so many "Dud" players under contract, it's going to be interesting to see how creative the front office can be at offloading contracts. Honestly we can't even talk about starting a rebuild until we can strip down to the point that we are an expansion club again.

Next year is going to be a repeat of the last two years as we are stuck with a group of players that with no established chemistry...The only good news is that if Apple still controls the broadcasts I wont be tempted to watch the ongoing perpetual dumpster fire...

[Ultra & Proud]

Apologies in advance for the negativity.:facepalm:

Since we have so many "Dud" players under contract, it's going to be interesting to see how creative the front office can be at offloading contracts. Honestly we can't even talk about starting a rebuild until we can strip down to the point that we are an expansion club again.


I think our dud defenders could be somewhat salvageable with good tactics and a real DM. Like even Bob had them playing good enough to manage draws so Herdman should be able to do about the same. If any of the three DPs managed anything at all during the first half we probably would have been in the lower playoff spots when the LC break came.

Midfield is a disaster but at least most of it is young and benchable for now. Scoring goals is another issue and that's not getting solved by the expensive trash we have up front, minus Kerr.

If we can move a few hacks and if JH x 2 & Rubio are up to it, three spine signings should be enough to change our fortunes from being pure shit to mediocre and within a shout of 9th place.

[SenorDingDong]

I think our dud defenders could be somewhat salvageable with good tactics and a real DM. Like even Bob had them playing good enough to manage draws so Herdman should be able to do about the same. If any of the three DPs managed anything at all during the first half we probably would have been in the lower playoff spots when the LC break came.

Midfield is a disaster but at least most of it is young and benchable for now. Scoring goals is another issue and that's not getting solved by the expensive trash we have up front, minus Kerr.

If we can move a few hacks and if JH x 2 & Rubio are up to it, three spine signings should be enough to change our fortunes from being pure shit to mediocre and within a shout of 9th place.

Easier to forget now but for the first 1/3 of this season we were defensively solid. We just couldn't score. Had so many 0-0 and 1-1 draws.

[Canary10]

Easier to forget now but for the first 1/3 of this season we were defensively solid. We just couldn't score. Had so many 0-0 and 1-1 draws.

Partly because of Hedges. We need a true replacement for him as a priority.

[ag futbol]

Did we use our buyout in this past window? Pretty inexcusable if they let that pass and didn’t exercise it.

[rydermike]

Did we use our buyout in this past window? Pretty inexcusable if they let that pass and didn’t exercise it.

We didn't, but I wonder if we can use it during the pre-ReEntry Draft trade window and have it still count as 2023. Definitely inexcusable to not have used it. We have a few terrible contracts with no value to get rid of.

[Canary10]

We didn't, but I wonder if we can use it during the pre-ReEntry Draft trade window and have it still count as 2023. Definitely inexcusable to not have used it. We have a few terrible contracts with no value to get rid of.

Diomande. Can't believe he's under contract for another year.

[Ultra & Proud]

Diomande. Can't believe he's under contract for another year.
Well we never did get to see the best of him.


Or did we......

[Canary10]

Well we never did get to see the best of him.


Or did we......

Oh for sure we did....in 2018.

[los sonadores]

We didn't, but I wonder if we can use it during the pre-ReEntry Draft trade window and have it still count as 2023. Definitely inexcusable to not have used it. We have a few terrible contracts with no value to get rid of.

Jesus, I hope so. I’ve been assuming a 2023 buy out is still possible. Anyone know the rules here?

[OgtheDim]

Jesus, I hope so. I’ve been assuming a 2023 buy out is still possible. Anyone know the rules here?

https://www.mlssoccer.com/about/roster-rules-and-regulations


Buyout of Guaranteed Contract


A club may buyout one player (including a Designated Player) who has a Guaranteed Contract and free up the corresponding Salary Budget space each year. Such a buyout is at the club's expense and may apply to any mutually terminated contracted player or to a contract that remains in effect.

This buyout may be conducted in-season or during the offseason. If the buyout is conducted in-season, it must be concluded by the close of the Secondary Transfer Window.

Before a player is considered a buyout, the League in its discretion may place the player on Waivers to be made available to all clubs.

If a team no longer has its one buyout of a guaranteed contract, it may enter settlement discussions with a player, but such settlement shall continue to apply to the team’s Salary Budget. If said player is a Designed Player, he will continue to occupy a Designated Player position on the team’s roster.





I suspect the definition of "each year" & "in-season" is flexible here.

I hope these are the actual rules but I suspect are more like guidelines. (insert stick to the code joke here)

[leedsandTFC]

FWIW i was in the tunnel club pregame for orlando and jason hernandez said they were not going to do a post 2021 season style clear-out where they end up with only kids for at least half a season.

[los sonadores]

https://www.mlssoccer.com/about/roster-rules-and-regulations




I suspect the definition of "each year" & "in-season" is flexible here.

I hope these are the actual rules but I suspect are more like guidelines. (insert stick to the code joke here)

I guess the salient part for us is that buyouts in the off-season seem possible. Which would make sense given that’s when most roster decisions happen.

[los sonadores]

FWIW i was in the tunnel club pregame for orlando and jason hernandez said they were not going to do a post 2021 season style clear-out where they end up with only kids for at least half a season.

Good and expected news. Treating your roster like it’s fantasy football rarely works well. In the case of BB it was a sort of total moral fantasy football. His version of guys ‘who want to be here’ meant we were playing with guys who can’t play well (yet) and/or can’t play the positions they were asked to play. I hope Herdman will be a bit more pragmatic.

Herdman seems sort of the anti-Bob. While working to improve a roster he works with what he has and shapes that to react specifically to his opponent, match by match. And rather than ‘my way or the highway boot camp’ he’s talking about therapy, haha. Not to say he’ll keep people that really don’t want to be here but you need guys who can play… at least until you replace them with better options.

[spe18]

Did we use our buyout in this past window? Pretty inexcusable if they let that pass and didn’t exercise it.


We didn't, but I wonder if we can use it during the pre-ReEntry Draft trade window and have it still count as 2023. Definitely inexcusable to not have used it. We have a few terrible contracts with no value to get rid of.

is the board @ MLSE refusing to provide the funds for a buyout an "excusable" reason for not using it, even if top management wanted to lol!!!!!! :picard:

[los sonadores]

is the board @ MLSE refusing to provide the funds for a buyout an "excusable" reason for not using it, even if top management wanted to lol!!!!!! :picard:

Og, just above, graciously found what seems the rule. Buyouts can happen in the off season. Best time for them, no doubt.

Something a little too much like easy paranoia on this board. Maybe look for the facts a bit before sounding off.

[rydermike]

I wonder if there's a rule where you can't buyout injured players and that's why Diomande was put on the season ending IR rather than bought out and hoping he'd be fit by the offseason to buy him out. Really the only possible reason I could possibly think of for not using it on him in the summer.

[spe18]

Og, just above, graciously found what seems the rule. Buyouts can happen in the off season. Best time for them, no doubt.

Something a little too much like easy paranoia on this board. Maybe look for the facts a bit before sounding off.


I wonder if there's a rule where you can't buyout injured players and that's why Diomande was put on the season ending IR rather than bought out and hoping he'd be fit by the offseason to buy him out. Really the only possible reason I could possibly think of for not using it on him in the summer.

It's been pointed out that buyouts still costs an organization funds, and therefore it wouldn't be surprising if MLSE as a whole decided to not sign off on a buyout. This especially wouldn't surprise me if this were to be the case, seeing all the missteps that has gone on under Manning's watch, especially 2021 onwards.

I'd be really interested in knowing what is meant by "off-season" - i.e. if it also includes the period from the day after MLS Cup through to the end of the calendar year? And if this were to be the case, whereby some of you might be suggesting we still have a buyout for the 2023 season.

This would theoretically be in addition to one for 2024.

[JoesphNdo]

We'll know soon enough, no reason to panic yet. But if we somehow go through the off season without a buy out that'll be very telling about MLSEs attitude to our budget and what we could do DP wise with or without the Italians. But we won't know until it happens. Frankly it makes sense to wait until we've a clear picture of what we need and what we can trade before making a move, I doubt you'll see much until pretty close to the deadline for salary compliance

[los sonadores]

We'll know soon enough, no reason to panic yet. But if we somehow go through the off season without a buy out that'll be very telling about MLSEs attitude to our budget and what we could do DP wise with or without the Italians. But we won't know until it happens. Frankly it makes sense to wait until we've a clear picture of what we need and what we can trade before making a move, I doubt you'll see much until pretty close to the deadline for salary compliance

Diomande is a bit of a mystery. He returned after months out… for, what was it, about five minutes at the end of a match? ran hard as if he was fit… and we never saw him again. It was quite late that he was put on the season ending injury list.

What happens if he can’t play again, does he gracefully retire or can he sit in the stands for another season? Do you buy out a player that is unlikely to play (if MLSE will allow it) or is there another way to get him off the books?

[rydermike]

or is there another way to get him off the books?

Sell him to Stabæk in Norway with Bob

[Areathrasher]

If a buyout occurs it'll happen in January IMO

[los sonadores]

I wonder about the late season Prince and Mailula signings given we seemingly can produce so little salary cap room even if we let go the obvious guys.

20 players are on guaranteed contracts. Guys we can let go are not on big money. Sapong can be let go but we weren’t picking up his entire salary, maybe half at 300,000. VV is on 300,000. Rangitsingh, 100,000, Romero 125,000, Mabika is 93.000 but his salary doesn’t count against the cap. Gutierrez - Van was paying almost all his salary so not much difference there - is out of contract.

I get that we needed someone up front who was capable of scoring but to take a chance like that late in the season before a new manager and sporting director are hired sounds not smart. An attempt by Hernandez to take control of his position, perhaps. They’ve contributed zero goals and may cost about 1 million in annual salary, more than we can clear from the cap by not picking up options or resigning guys. Without the two recent signees we’d have more like 1.8 million from this current roster for Herdman and Rubio to work with.

Let’s hope we can buy out Diomande… otherwise its trading players. Anyone want to have a shot at who on the 20 man guaranteed roster is tradable to possibly good effect?

I guess we hope for the best re the league cap increase and other league tweaks/enhancements. Of course, everyone gets those but it appears we really need them.

[jloome]

I wonder about the late season Prince and Mailula signings given we seemingly can produce so little salary cap room even if we let go the obvious guys.

20 players are on guaranteed contracts. Guys we can let go are not on big money. Sapong can be let go but we weren’t picking up his entire salary, maybe half at 300,000. VV is on 300,000. Rangitsingh, 100,000, Romero 125,000, Mabika is 93.000 but his salary doesn’t count against the cap. Gutierrez - Van was paying almost all his salary so not much difference there - is out of contract.

I get that we needed someone up front who was capable of scoring but to take a chance like that late in the season before a new manager and sporting director are hired sounds not smart. An attempt by Hernandez to take control of his position, perhaps. They’ve contributed zero goals and may cost about 1 million in annual salary, more than we can clear from the cap by not picking up options or resigning guys. Without the two recent signees we’d have more like 1.8 million from this current roster for Herdman and Rubio to work with.

Let’s hope we can buy out Diomande… otherwise its trading players. Anyone want to have a shot at who on the 20 man guaranteed roster is tradable to possibly good effect?

I guess we hope for the best re the league cap increase and other league tweaks/enhancements. Of course, everyone gets those but it appears we really need them.

We got another $1.5 million off the books just from Hedges being traded and Bradley retiring. Combined with the departing platers, we have over $2 million to spend, a free DP spot, and six open roster spots.

They have quite a lot of flexibility, and that's before they even try to move some of the players we have.

Also, the transfer portions of Owusu and Mailula only count against the 2023 season. Their actual salaries are less than $1M combined.

[Red CB Toronto]

Do we have a open DP spot, is Oso out of it in 2024? Also in regards to Owusu and Mailula contracts, how long were they for? The transfer fee can be spread across the length, but I get if it was low enough they just applied it all to this year to be done with it.


We got another $1.5 million off the books just from Hedges being traded and Bradley retiring. Combined with the departing platers, we have over $2 million to spend, a free DP spot, and six open roster spots.

They have quite a lot of flexibility, and that's before they even try to move some of the players we have.

Also, the transfer portions of Owusu and Mailula only count against the 2023 season. Their actual salaries are less than $1M combined.

[jloome]

Do we have a open DP spot, is Oso out of it in 2024? Also in regards to Owusu and Mailula contracts, how long were they for? The transfer fee can be spread across the length, but I get if it was low enough they just applied it all to this year to be done with it.

Owusu was on a free. I'm not sure about Mailula's, but it's possible that with Hedges leaving, they wrote some or possibly all of it off this year. I think they had enough space to do it.

Either way, the amount carried forward would likely be quite low, because they'd want to have maximized this year's cap space.

As Michael announced his retirement this season, his last year of his deal might've been the buyout this year, in exchange for retiring and giving them a slot and cap space.

Not sure what they're doing with Diomande. There doesn't seem any serious intent to keep/play him, so you'd think he'd be a buyout.

We easily have enough cap space to move Oso out of the DP spot, so I suspect it'll depend on whether they find the right target. (Which... man, if we don't get an attacking threat who has pace, next year is going to be rough).

[rydermike]

Do we have a open DP spot, is Oso out of it in 2024?

Oso is on a TAMable contract. TAM contracts are DP deals, but the TAM can buy it below the threshold. They just didn't do it for Oso in 2023, they could've (but didn't have any TAM left) and can still for 2024. (Hedges and Bradley were both on TAM deals, so theoretically we can allocate the TAM used on them and apply it to Oso, thereby freeing up the DP slot)

[leedsandTFC]

vazquez is not coming back next seasom

[los sonadores]

vazquez is not coming back next seasom

Will he retire?

[Ultra & Proud]

Will he retire?
He should. Pretty clear his body is saying "No Mas".

[leedsandTFC]

Will he retire?

no.

he posted on instagram video of packing bags.

i sent him a message asking if he was coming back next year and he said no, but not as a coach either bc he thinks he can play another year or 2.

[SenorDingDong]

Will he retire?

From his insta feeds recently I got the sense he was going back home to Barca to be with his son. Felt like retiring to me but who knows.

[leedsandTFC]

From his insta feeds recently I got the sense he was going back home to Barca to be with his son. Felt like retiring to me but who knows.

doubt he retires unless doesnt get any offers.

i messaged him and he replied that he felt still had 1 or 2 more years to play

[Mr. Inbetween]

I wonder if there's a rule where you can't buyout injured players and that's why Diomande was put on the season ending IR rather than bought out and hoping he'd be fit by the offseason to buy him out. Really the only possible reason I could possibly think of for not using it on him in the summer.

Maybe. Perhaps consideration is in play of MLS/TFC HR, USA/CDN, state/provincial, employment laws. Diomande has had substance abuse and behavioural health issues in his past. Although he came to a mutual termination of contract agreement with LAFC for ‘family reasons’.

[jloome]

Maybe. Perhaps consideration is in play of MLS/TFC HR, USA/CDN, state/provincial, employment laws. Diomande has had substance abuse and behavioural health issues in his past. Although he came to a mutual termination of contract agreement with LAFC for ‘family reasons’.

I did sort of wonder, as the Bradleys strike me as moral humanists, whether Bob gave him that deal as payback for what happened in LA. He's apparently an extremely devout Muslim, and going to LAFC put him in the midst of more temptations that he'd probably ever had to deal with, and a lot of money with which to try things.

It made sense that he went to Qatar (Saudi?) after that, strictly from a 'getting straight' perspective. But LA got rid of him awfully quickly, and I wonder if Bradley's had was somewhat forced at the time.

The dude was seriously talented, let's not forget that. He's just been either injured or off elite level for three years now, so it's unlikely he'll produce anything significant. I think they must have known that risk, which is why it smacked a little of trying to right and old wrong.

[jloome]

He should. Pretty clear his body is saying "No Mas".

He and Messi have been close friends since childhood. Perhaps he's expecting a call from Miami (soon to be the world's oldest professional football team).

[Smokecell]

Soooo like, we just skipped cleanout day this year?

0 accountability

[los sonadores]

Soooo like, we just skipped cleanout day this year?

0 accountability

Last I heard: not skipped just postponed maybe due to Herdman’s recent arrival.

[ag futbol]

Last I heard: not skipped just postponed maybe due to Herdman’s recent arrival.
Seems unlikely it would reappear at this stage. Just like some of the other targets Manning provided in the past, it will probably vanish into thin air

[Canary10]

One thing I'm very curious about - is the way Canada played in the World Cup qualifying Herdman's preferred approach, or is because of the players we had available? Canada played with a lot of speed and fluidity. But we obviously had some very quick wingers in Tajon Buchanan and Davies (who got moved around a bit, but used generally as a winger). I'd love to see that be implemented with TFC, it was very fun to watch. I'm so sick of the slow, plodding build-up we have used for years. But obviously we have zero speed to do it at this point.

[los sonadores]

Seems unlikely it would reappear at this stage. Just like some of the other targets Manning provided in the past, it will probably vanish into thin air

I guess we’ll see… I suppose the process was to feed the media and fans… that there are almost no TFC journalists anymore and the club does it’s own (lame/disinterested) media doesn’t augur well.

[los sonadores]

One thing I'm very curious about - is the way Canada played in the World Cup qualifying Herdman's preferred approach, or is because of the players we had available? Canada played with a lot of speed and fluidity. But we obviously had some very quick wingers in Tajon Buchanan and Davies (who got moved around a bit, but used generally as a winger). I'd love to see that be implemented with TFC, it was very fun to watch. I'm so sick of the slow, plodding build-up we have used for years. But obviously we have zero speed to do it at this point.

I’m thinking it was the players he had (although many of them he enticed to play for Canada). I don’t follow the women’s game: does anyone know what his approach was with Canada and New Zealand?

[OgtheDim]

Journos have not been told about a cleanout day - Molinaro mentionned that this week.

My question is this - is there social media evidence of anybody still around training?

If so - those would be clues to who is sticking around but not 100% evidence


I am not comfortable with social media stalking but if you follow already, nobody is going to complain about a report.

[los sonadores]

Journos have not been told about a cleanout day - Molinaro mentionned that this week.

My question is this - is there social media evidence of anybody still around training?

If so - those would be clues to who is sticking around but not 100% evidence


I am not comfortable with social media stalking but if you follow already, nobody is going to complain about a report.

Seems the immediate decisions will not be very unexpected. The 20 guys under contract are going nowhere unless someone is, in time, traded, or a buyout happens (which also probably won’t be anytime soon).

The rest should be not difficult to predict, with a few exceptions. Does Romero stay given Gavran’s good play? Is Gutierrez resigned at lower money (if Bob was still here it would be no, but Herdman knows him and started him in the last match higher up where he’s better). Will Mabika stay given his salary doesn’t count against the cap? Relatively minor stuff like that, it seems?

[Ultra & Proud]

I figure they kaiboshed cleanout day and the interviews with it as nothing positive for them would come out of it.

We've already heard Bradley & Osorio subtly take shots at the Italians and management after the last match and most likely there would just be more of that. No "sales" value in it. I expect the only further communications from the team to be from Herdman or possibly Hernandez when things like the draft and things come along.

[FootBallAZ]

I figure they kaiboshed cleanout day and the interviews with it as nothing positive for them would come out of it.

We've already heard Bradley & Osorio subtly take shots at the Italians and management after the last match and most likely there would just be more of that. No "sales" value in it. I expect the only further communications from the team to be from Herdman or possibly Hernandez when things like the draft and things come along.


what a joke

[ag futbol]

I figure they kaiboshed cleanout day and the interviews with it as nothing positive for them would come out of it.

We've already heard Bradley & Osorio subtly take shots at the Italians and management after the last match and most likely there would just be more of that. No "sales" value in it. I expect the only further communications from the team to be from Herdman or possibly Hernandez when things like the draft and things come along.
I agree. It’s really management that need to be speaking here and leading from the front.

Glen Grunwald once took the mic at centre court at the last home game for end of a crappy raptors season. Told people he’d do better and the crowd mercilessly booed him. But I’ll tell you what, he won a lot of respect from me for that (and others too).

What a contrast between that action and this group who hire Dunfield as their fall guy and otherwise do the absolute minimum in terms of speaking publicly.

[OgtheDim]

Subtle bit by Osorio in his post-game presser after that last game.

"Trust me, the people moving on, we will do everything can to make sure this club moves forward"

Some personnel moves were already known before that game.

I suspect a coalescing of movements will take place then be announced as a sweep.

[OgtheDim]

Another tidbit from the post game presser by Herdman - they like the 5 man back line idea.

So look for

3-4-3
3-5-2
3-4-2-1
3-4-1-2

as our formations next season.

[Yohan]

https://www.torontofc.ca/news/toronto-fc-announce-2023-roster-moves?fbclid=IwAR1uaVKT9pXGie5NXlRDG_2g0libErgQIkF-vJNHGtovHDXSPZEZl0h2_kg
End of season roster moves

[jloome]

Another tidbit from the post game presser by Herdman - they like the 5 man back line idea.

So look for

3-4-3
3-5-2
3-4-2-1
3-4-1-2

as our formations next season.

Yeah, one of the pundits -- I think it was Caldwell -- said he wouldn't be surprised to see him play a 3-4-3 primarily. He likes wide speed, he likes three at the back most of the time.

[jloome]

https://www.torontofc.ca/news/toronto-fc-announce-2023-roster-moves?fbclid=IwAR1uaVKT9pXGie5NXlRDG_2g0libErgQIkF-vJNHGtovHDXSPZEZl0h2_kg
End of season roster moves

Pulling the plug on Themi. A bit surprising but maybe they're trying to send a message to younger prospects.

[Canary10]

Yeah, one of the pundits -- I think it was Caldwell -- said he wouldn't be surprised to see him play a 3-4-3 primarily. He likes wide speed, he likes three at the back most of the time.

I would love to see this if we can get those wide players with speed. Herdman was lucky to have freak level speed on those wings for Canada!

[JoesphNdo]

It's going to be very hard to achieve proper traditional width and speed to the touchline with our current DPs, if he's confident he's going that road maybe he's confident in moving at least one of them. I'm just looking for a glimmer of hope, really!

[OgtheDim]

Pulling the plug on Themi. A bit surprising but maybe they're trying to send a message to younger prospects.

To my eyes, Themi was the worst of all of our youngsters.

[ensco]

This is by far the worst team in the league, and it cannot cut even a single one of its top 10-12 players? Show me another club in world football history like that.

The hopelessness of our situation is effing unreal, when you see it in black and white like that.

The league has to create some rules to help us out here. This is genuinely dire. Franchise threatening. Except for a couple of hundred diehards, nobody is going to be there to watch this again.

[Initial B]

Have they used their buy-out for this year? If they haven't and don't and let it lapse, that's a fireable offence for the whole front office.

[MikeForbes]

Maybe a hot take here, but if we use our buyout, it needs to be Ayo Akinola who is bought out. San Jose isn't keeping him. No one else is trading for him to clog up a u-22 spot and we can't have him clogging up ours.

[Smokecell]

To my eyes, Themi was the worst of all of our youngsters.

FWIW, not only to your eyes.

To be fair, if I recall correctly he wasn't a planned signing per se. At the time we had used up his short term loans so essentially got forced into bringing him on full time. He was given a long runway and never took off.


Maybe a hot take here, but if we use our buyout, it needs to be Ayo Akinola who is bought out. San Jose isn't keeping him. No one else is trading for him to clog up a u-22 spot and we can't have him clogging up ours.

Not sure that any take in relation to this team can be taken as hot. You name a player and odds are he deserves to go.

[OgtheDim]

... This is genuinely dire. Franchise threatening. Except for a couple of hundred diehards, nobody is going to be there to watch this again.


For reasons that a lot of people may not understand...we regularly draw 20K+ no matter how bad we are.

I agree on your main points though - we have a lot of crap in our main roster and it is going to take until 2026 to get away from this.

[leedsandTFC]

This is by far the worst team in the league, and it cannot cut even a single one of its top 10-12 players? Show me another club in world football history like that.

The hopelessness of our situation is effing unreal, when you see it in black and white like that.

The league has to create some rules to help us out here. This is genuinely dire. Franchise threatening. Except for a couple of hundred diehards, nobody is going to be there to watch this again.

Well have a top 10 attendance in mls next year regardless.

But also we've shifted 3.5-4 mill of salary from the start of 2023 season (hedges, laryea, Vazquez, Bradley etc). That's before a buyout or any trades or sales happen.

Buyout diomande you've freed up close to 4.5 mill in cap space already which is huge in mls.

We definitely need to do what we can to shift one or both the Italians, petretta, rosted and maybe try to recoup some assets by trading johnson.

I'd imagine some liberalization of the economic rules is coming too which would be a huge help to us.

The most important thing is doing everything to shift the Italians imo. Or at very least bernardeschi.

We're not gonna go anywhere without a dp striker and a 3rd dp in the team and I bet a lot of our players would look a lot better with genuine difference makers around them (I'm thinking kerr, Franklin, coello, blessing, etc).

If we let manning bring in another high paid flop to try to sell tix, however, we're finished for a long time.

[los sonadores]

I agree. It’s really management that need to be speaking here and leading from the front.

Glen Grunwald once took the mic at centre court at the last home game for end of a crappy raptors season. Told people he’d do better and the crowd mercilessly booed him. But I’ll tell you what, he won a lot of respect from me for that (and others too).

What a contrast between that action and this group who hire Dunfield as their fall guy and otherwise do the absolute minimum in terms of speaking publicly.

I remember that, he also earned respect from me.

You’re right, it’s management that needs to speak here. Manning especially and also Hernandez. We’ve just had a very long press conference with Herdman - I doubt he could add anything after one match in charge. Rubio was hired 3 weeks ago. It would have had to be something other than the usual thing.

[los sonadores]

https://www.torontofc.ca/news/toronto-fc-announce-2023-roster-moves?fbclid=IwAR1uaVKT9pXGie5NXlRDG_2g0libErgQIkF-vJNHGtovHDXSPZEZl0h2_kg
End of season roster moves

Indeed, nothing surprising there. I’m guessing Thompson will be back with us. Petretta will probably play on the left of a back three… I thought he looked okay there and Herdman will probably like his ability to get forward from there. It’ll be interesting to see who they bring in for the other two places.

Thinking about Herdman’s Canada, we have nothing at all like Davies, Buchanan, or Layrea. Not to mention a striker worth his salt.

[FootBallAZ]

Indeed, nothing surprising there. I’m guessing Thompson will be back with us. Petretta will probably play on the left of a back three… I thought he looked okay there and Herdman will probably like his ability to get forward from there. It’ll be interesting to see who they bring in for the other two places.

Thinking about Herdman’s Canada, we have nothing at all like Davies, Buchanan, or Layrea. Not to mention a striker worth his salt.


thats the unfortunate part- pettreta is being paid as the highest LB in MLS and his on field performance is no where justifying the insane contract good ole;' bill manning agreed to

[Canary10]

Indeed, nothing surprising there. I’m guessing Thompson will be back with us. Petretta will probably play on the left of a back three… I thought he looked okay there and Herdman will probably like his ability to get forward from there. It’ll be interesting to see who they bring in for the other two places.

Thinking about Herdman’s Canada, we have nothing at all like Davies, Buchanan, or Layrea. Not to mention a striker worth his salt.

Yup. We're the opposite of that in fact.

[ag futbol]

I think with Canada Herdman was very much in the mindset of “what do I have?” and “what’s the best way to make it work?” He may not try the same things here.

But team speed definitely needs to be addressed. It’s been an issue for years now. The league has only gotten more athletic and faster while we are seemingly stuck in the past and with an overall roster that has very little pace.

We need to be credible on a counter attack up front and have enough athleticism through the midfield to keep up. Not sure how they solve the problem up too short of offloading one of the Italians.

[Ultra & Proud]

thats the unfortunate part- pettreta is being paid as the highest LB in MLS and his on field performance is no where justifying the insane contract good ole;' bill manning agreed to

His contract is a bit rich but every now and then he looked like maybe he could be useful.

We have no choice but he is a player who might take a season to adjust to MLS and look at the overall horseshit we had everywhere last season. Same reason I haven't 100% written off Rosted yet.

Adjustment time + no sensible manager + surrounded by garbage players attitude & skill wise = a good chance of playing below their level.

[ag futbol]

His contract is a bit rich but every now and then he looked like maybe he could be useful.

We have no choice but he is a player who might take a season to adjust to MLS and look at the overall horseshit we had everywhere last season. Same reason I haven't 100% written off Rosted yet.

Adjustment time + no sensible manager + surrounded by garbage players attitude & skill wise = a good chance of playing below their level.
Yeah, I think we have to make lemonade out of lemons some places on this roster and this would be one of them.

We still need a fullback on the other side and a leader CB. No way around those.

[MikeForbes]

Kind of random and South America is awful for reporting. But...

https://twitter.com/geladeiratrikas/status/1720426730098225163?s=20

[Prof]

Pulling the plug on Themi. A bit surprising but maybe they're trying to send a message to younger prospects.

I think this is a mistake. He was no worse than someone making ten times his salary and was playing out of position. I would have played him instead of Insigne to see what someone with a little speed on the wing can do.

[jloome]

I think this is a mistake. He was no worse than someone making ten times his salary and was playing out of position. I would have played him instead of Insigne to see what someone with a little speed on the wing can do.

Maybe they're setting some new age-based standards. He's a long way off the good 22-year-olds in this league; I can see him coming good eventually, but definitely as a late bloomer.

And if you're focussing on bringing efficacy to a moribund youth development system, part of that might be saying guys who are 22, 23 have to be able to hang with first-team players in MLS.

[jloome]

Kind of random and South America is awful for reporting. But...

https://twitter.com/geladeiratrikas/status/1720426730098225163?s=20

Interesting.

They could afford him, though they're traditionally pretty careful.

[SenorDingDong]

VV's goodbye post today on Instagram is a real tear jerker... love that guy

[Auzzy]

VV's goodbye post today on Instagram is a real tear jerker... love that guy

I'm baffled why Herdman didn't give Victor a couple of minutes in the last game.

[los sonadores]

I'm baffled why Herdman didn't give Victor a couple of minutes in the last game.

Yeah, I’m glad I saw him last season at BMO with LAG. He’s very slow but still brilliant to watch if one cares about the rare quality he has. The matador.

[Oldtimer]

Vazquez says goodbye to the club and the fans.

https://wakingthered.com/2023/11/04/13510/victor-vazquez-writes-emotional-goodbye-to-toronto-fc-fans-after-being-released-by-tfc/

[spe18]

Have they used their buy-out for this year? If they haven't and don't and let it lapse, that's a fireable offence for the whole front office.

And does the "whole front office" include the MLSE board? Could it be they won't approve of providing funds required for a buyout?

Plus there's a question if buy-outs are still allowed through to the end of the year? i.e. when the league's rules refers to "off season", does the period from after MLS Cup to end of the calendar year still get included for purposes of making a buy-out should a team have not used it yet? I've reread the rules on that, and definitely feels there's some ambiguity there.

And if the above is allowed, it's also been suggested the buy-out for this year may have already been used on MB. Which wouldn't surprise me, as he had his contract restructured again in the past off season, thereby leaving "money on the table".

Then the question is did he actually retire with money left on the table, or was there really a buyout in play behind the scenes for the remaining amounts owing? Yes, I'm well aware it was publicly announced as a "retirement".

This reminds me of the Frings situation many years back.

[leedsandTFC]

Interesting.

They could afford him, though they're traditionally pretty careful.

That is a parody account sadly, I wish it was true.

Also not sure where this buy out has elapsed stuff has cone from.

If you are going to use it mid season, you have to use it by the end of the 2nd transfer window.

Otherwise you have the whole offseason to use it.

We bought out jozy in February remember

[rydermike]

Also not sure where this buy out has elapsed stuff has cone from.

If you are going to use it mid season, you have to use it by the end of the 2nd transfer window.

Otherwise you have the whole offseason to use it.

We bought out jozy in February remember

Jozy was bought out in Feb 2022 and was our 2022 buyout. We didn't buy out any other player that season. He was our only buyout since you have one per season. (ex. They had to trade Dwyer plus assets to Dallas for them to use their buyout on hin).

The question is whether our 2023 buyout has expired since we never used it. Do we still have it (plus our 2024 buyout) or do we only have our 2024 buyout left. Most of us are hoping our 2023 buyout can still be used in addition to our 2024 buyout. The question is can we buyout two players this offseason (one now for the 2023 buyout and one before next season for the 2024 buyout), or has the current year buyout expired.

[ensco]

I will bet money that MB was the 2023 buyout and the retirement thing was a hastily-contrived story.

[ElvistheEvilScotsman]

I will bet money that MB was the 2023 buyout and the retirement thing was a hastily-contrived story.

100 percent agree. He took a pay cut this year and put the balance owed out into next year. He didn’t walk away from that money. Retirement sounds dignified over a buy out especially when this is the end of your career.

[leedsandTFC]

Jozy was bought out in Feb 2022 and was our 2022 buyout. We didn't buy out any other player that season. He was our only buyout since you have one per season. (ex. They had to trade Dwyer plus assets to Dallas for them to use their buyout on hin).

The question is whether our 2023 buyout has expired since we never used it. Do we still have it (plus our 2024 buyout) or do we only have our 2024 buyout left. Most of us are hoping our 2023 buyout can still be used in addition to our 2024 buyout. The question is can we buyout two players this offseason (one now for the 2023 buyout and one before next season for the 2024 buyout), or has the current year buyout expired.

2023 offseason is "post season" so pretty sure they have until end of December to use it.

[OgtheDim]

I will bet money that MB was the 2023 buyout and the retirement thing was a hastily-contrived story.

I believe they are required to indicate in a press release that a buyout was used - I've yet to see a buyout not named as such.

Opaqeness going opaque of course....

[ag futbol]

I will bet money that MB was the 2023 buyout and the retirement thing was a hastily-contrived story.
That tracks. My bet is based on the feelings about how Bob was treated and his recent deferral of salary he wasn’t about to do any favours (nor would I expect him too).

The restructuring of his contract last year was a profoundly stupid move. If Manning wasn’t asleep at the switch he would have vetoed that.

[ag futbol]

I believe they are required to indicate in a press release that a buyout was used - I've yet to see a buyout not named as such.

Opaqeness going opaque of course....
I would have thought the same about designating someone a DP. And yet, nine months later, we find out the truth and they half-heartedly gaslight us by saying we all knew it was that way the whole time.

What we really need here is a reporter with some guts to put things on record.

[JoesphNdo]

That tracks. My bet is based on the feelings about how Bob was treated and his recent deferral of salary he wasn’t about to do any favours (nor would I expect him too).

The restructuring of his contract last year was a profoundly stupid move. If Manning wasn’t asleep at the switch he would have vetoed that.

I think you give Manning too much credit to think he'd veto it, I think it's the opposite. That move is absolutely classic Manning. Not only would I doubt he'd veto it, I'd be surprised if he wasn't pushing it. It fits a pattern we've seen consistently since 2019

[ag futbol]

I think you give Manning too much credit to think he'd veto it, I think it's the opposite. That move is absolutely classic Manning. Not only would I doubt he'd veto it, I'd be surprised if he wasn't pushing it. It fits a pattern we've seen consistently since 2019
Burning the furniture to heat the house?

[Mr. Inbetween]

Well…

https://twitter.com/LeachCityNewsTO/status/1721659679577678016

[los sonadores]

Well…

https://twitter.com/LeachCityNewsTO/status/1721659679577678016

So, something delayed, more or less as Molinari related.

[ag futbol]

$10 says Manning was waiting for Black Friday and someone had to tell him Canadians’ celebrate thanksgiving on a different date.

[MikeForbes]

Can't wait for Michael Singh to ask Bill Manning just how incredible he thinks Kobe Franklin and Coello are on a scale of 1-10 instead of asking a real question.

[OgtheDim]

To be honest, I havn't heard Singh at a presser in months....

[MikeForbes]

To be honest, I havn't heard Singh at a presser in months....

I just went and checked Singh's Twitter feed and he rarely even mentions the team the past couple months. Honestly, the press conference might be dreadfully short. Molinaro looks to be the only one who covers them full time and he isn't usually one to throw out hard questions.

[OgtheDim]

I just went and checked Singh's Twitter feed and he rarely even mentions the team the past couple months. Honestly, the press conference might be dreadfully short. Molinaro looks to be the only one who covers them full time and he isn't usually one to throw out hard questions.

Hmmm....its been mentioned by a few others and there were about 5 different voices on the last Herdman presser so we will see.

&

FWIW

Molinaro asked the "are you the right person to lead this forward" questions at Manning after BB was fired.

https://www.tfcrepublic.ca/bob-bradley-bill-manning-tfc-mls-toronto-fc/

It was remarked upon at the time in a thread here somewhere...Molinaro has lost his patience with things going on around TFC.

[Ultra & Proud]

It was remarked upon at the time in a thread here somewhere...Molinaro has lost his patience with things going on around TFC.

I think he got tired of idiots like me calling him a shill for TFC.

[jloome]

I think he got tired of idiots like me calling him a shill for TFC.

It's a good thing, to show humility. He gave them a lot of leeway, and they gave him answers that were clearly bullshit to placate a member of the media. I suspect he recognized in that moment that he was giving them too much credit for being honest and direct.

John is a good person who puts in effort. He just comes from TV, which can have a deeply limiting effect (due to image and time being prioritized over any depth) on how reporters learn to address covering beats.

The Sun used to love hiring former TV guys because they "wrote short", but often that was just editors who were shit, too, not recognizing that "summing things up quickly" is not really a strength in a comparatively long-form medium.

[JoesphNdo]

I think he got tired of idiots like me calling him a shill for TFC.

The comical Ali act right before the Athletic article came out probably didn't help. I hope that was a line in the sand for him, we need reporters asking at least semi difficult questions given the clubs general cone of silence

[spe18]

I believe they are required to indicate in a press release that a buyout was used - I've yet to see a buyout not named as such.

Opaqeness going opaque of course....

Torsten Frings?

[ag futbol]

The comical Ali act right before the Athletic article came out probably didn't help. I hope that was a line in the sand for him, we need reporters asking at least semi difficult questions given the clubs general cone of silence
I hope he learns but somehow I doubt it. Not the first instance where he basically had his TFC story refuted a short time after printing and lazily relied on someone’s word without thinking even slightly intuitively.

He could arrive at a house with smoke coming out of it and fire trucks sitting outside. If you told him it wasn’t burning in there he’d probably print it.

Seems like a nice guy. But I’ll trust my fortune cookie over his reporting.

[ensco]

I am torn about whether to renew on John's site.

On the one hand, he is kind of it (I suppose there is still Davidson - who is great but barely does TFC any more) and so I kind of feel an obligation to support him. Plus he is clearly a good guy.

The flip side is, he just seemed to be a hostage to the team. He cannot do what he does without constant access to the players, and it seemed obvious, to me anyway, that fear of getting that access pulled affected what he was saying.

Plus I hated, just absolutely hated, that he was using his site to do a ticket promotion for the team.

so I dunno, I have to think about it….

[Ultra & Proud]

The flip side is, he just seemed to be a hostage to the team. He cannot do what he does without constant access to the players, and it seemed obvious, to me anyway, that fear of getting that access pulled affected what he was saying.

Plus I hated, just absolutely hated, that he was using his site to do a ticket promotion for the team.

This is where I'm at with this too.

Really the team should just pay him for content on their website like they used to have back in the TFC.ca days.

For me he is essentially another form of TFC PR.

[los sonadores]

This is where I'm at with this too.

Really the team should just pay him for content on their website like they used to have back in the TFC.ca days.

For me he is essentially another form of TFC PR.

When I’ve read him he’s seemed to me somewhere between MLS.com - often critical of individual teams and players but not critical of the league overall - and TFC.ca which was/is never critical of anything TFC. So, some level of critique but often not.

For all the so called independence of the newspapers (and I do miss them) most of what was written was not critique but game and injury reports, general info, quotes, special interest. Molinaro may be from TV but there was plenty of that in the newspapers. I think we idealize what was there (in the sports sections at least… some of the other sections are a different matter).

There is, in one ten minute post game video of the managers press conference more content (or at least more detailed content) than there ever was in most of the Toronto sports sections on soccer. When a new manager was hired, for example, that was the focus but never as much as to be able to watch an hour and forty minutes - all journalists questions answered straight from the horse’s mouth.

But if you want journalist style write ups then it’s pretty much got to be Molinaro… who, to be fair, probably has more TFC content than any one sports section had.

Variety, I suppose, it’s what missing but you can’t fault Molinaro for that.

Perhaps with enough support he’ll hire other journalists.

Also, there is TV which, at least with de Guzman et. al, has lately been more biting than the newspapers often were and much more than TV used to be. It’s only 2 or 3 minute segments but often, lately, they’re almost full on critical of TFC.

[Mr. Inbetween]

I am torn about whether to renew on John's site. On the one hand, he is kind of it (I suppose there is still Davidson - who is great but barely does TFC any more) and so I kind of feel an obligation to support him. Plus he is clearly a good guy. The flip side is, he just seemed to be a hostage to the team. He cannot do what he does without constant access to the players, and it seemed obvious, to me anyway, that fear of getting that access pulled affected what he was saying. Plus I hated, just absolutely hated, that he was using his site to do a ticket promotion for the team. so I dunno, I have to think about it….

The dilemma such media face daily; not an ideal position. See/just go ask Filosa...

https://twitter.com/northtribune/status/1720829573124759706

BTW, an FYI...

https://twitter.com/NiltonJorge/status/1722333786208174474

'This morning on@BPMSportsRadio (https://twitter.com/BPMSportsRadio) during an interview with@MaxLalonde (https://twitter.com/MaxLalonde_)
@MaximeTruman (https://twitter.com/MaximeTruman)talked about the salaries granted by MLS / AppleTV. “AppleTV pays Canadian descriptors $3,500 per match.
This is a price that has no relation to what is given in Quebec.”'

[MikeForbes]

Press conference is beginning. No idea if there is a stream or not.

[Canary10]

Press conference is beginning. No idea if there is a stream or not.

I saw a picture from it and looked like John and Neil Davidson were the only two there.

[Mr. Inbetween]

I saw a picture from it and looked like John and Neil Davidson were the only two there.

This, unfortunately, seems so. :(

[MikeForbes]

https://twitter.com/NeilMDavidson/status/1723005172979257419?s=20

[ag futbol]

https://twitter.com/NeilMDavidson/status/1723005172979257419?s=20
TFC’s relevance in the market under Manning’s leadership, a visual.

[Red I]

TFC’s relevance in the market under Manning’s leadership, a visual.

https://media.tenor.com/A2OWoemwcOEAAAAd/youre-not-a-clown-youre-the-entire-circus.gif

[NK Toronto]

You could make an argument that "Teflon" Bill Manning was the single worst appointment in TFC history. He inherited a championship team and essentially burned it to the ground. TFC is now nothing more than a complete laughing stock.

[gracos]

i find it shocking that Manning is still with the club after how many previous mistakes, Ali Curtis, Chris Armas and now Bob Bradley, if Herdman doesnt perform well im certain that MLSE will continously give out chances to Manning, while ignoring the problems which Manning is

[Ultra & Proud]

i find it shocking that Manning is still with the club after how many previous mistakes, Ali Curtis, Chris Armas and now Bob Bradley, if Herdman doesnt perform well im certain that MLSE will continously give out chances to Manning, while ignoring the problems which Manning is
I have a feeling that this is it for him. Either this works or he is toast.

I heard from a few people who know things that there is a decent amount of shock over the amount of non-renewals this year. Especially from a lot of day 1 people.

Even my rep was clearly a bit nervous to call me this week about getting my new VISA number. Probably got yelled at all morning before I got my chance.

The level of anger is high from the diehards and the level of apathy from the rest of the fanbase is huge. This offseason will be a time of great suffering at TFC HQ. I will go so far to say that if Herdman doesn't come out of the blocks with promise then I say Manning is jettisoned by May.

[benito]

The level of anger is high from the diehards and the level of apathy from the rest of the fanbase is huge. This offseason will be a time of great suffering at TFC HQ. I will go so far to say that if Herdman doesn't come out of the blocks with promise then I say Manning is jettisoned by May.

This is very true.

[jloome]

TFC’s relevance in the market under Manning’s leadership, a visual.

They read an email I wrote in to Footie Prime in the latest episode about Sharman misconstruing TFC's offseason, and in the course of discussing his lack of up-to-date TFC knowledge, they all mentioned that TFC is the only team from whom they no longer receive regular press releases or invites.

There's some incompetent shit on going on there. I'm going to mention it to someone I know who works there, but I've taked communications with them before and I can't say I'm optimistic the required impetus will be recognized.

[A Stick]

They read an email I wrote in to Footie Prime in the latest episode about Sharman misconstruing TFC's offseason, and in the course of discussing his lack of up-to-date TFC knowledge, they all mentioned that TFC is the only team from whom they no longer receive regular press releases or invites.

There's some incompetent shit on going on there. I'm going to mention it to someone I know who works there, but I've taked communications with them before and I can't say I'm optimistic the required impetus will be recognized.
J Loome, TFC is doomed after reading your statement. At least Tom Anselmi (sp?) knew he and his crew fucked up big time stated this fact publicly. I can't believe these clowns are burying their heads in the sand! Btw, I didn't renew my season ticket and I am have been going to games since game one.

[JoesphNdo]

Renewals is where rubber meets the road, they can pretend there was 27,000 people there on the last day of the season while the place looked like an Argos game and financially it's fine as they got the money up front, but if renewals tank next year, that'll be the big wake up call. I don't think Manning is as safe as people assume. I just can't understand how he can explain to the board why he's burning money at a rate nobody else in the league has ever done(Except the ones who have the literal greatest footballer of all time on their team) and has no income streams to show for it, which is what they care about. He could behind season ticket sales papering over the empty seats of this season, but he can't hide from a sea of non renewals, and if the actual bums in seats is an indication, that's what he's about to be faced with

He just has to be in trouble. Either that or the man has some kind of extreme dirt on some high ups at MLSE

[OgtheDim]

....they can pretend there was 27,000 people there on the last day of the season while the place looked like an Argos game ...

I'm not sure of 27K but it was NOT an Argo game level. I would say about 24K - I base this on every section being about 80% filled (easy to see this from the middle of the South)

Argos are 13-16K, with certain areas unavailable.


I get the desire for change and am in with it all but lets not hyperbole things....

[JoesphNdo]

If there was 24,000 there I'll personally buy all 24,000 of them a drink. Not a chance. Not even close. But let's go down this road again.

[OgtheDim]

If there was 24,000 there I'll personally buy all 24,000 of them a drink. Not a chance. Not even close. But let's go down this road again.


Fair enough - agree to disagree etc.

Point is if you are basing Manning being on thin ice on attendance...that is open to interpretation.

Most of us think he needs to go for other reasons but that hasn't been enough yet for him to go.


Again, if they are crap in 2024 - and to my mind 2025 can't be a regression back to this either - Manning will be gone I'm sure.

[jloome]

Here's Neil Davidson's piece:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/mls/article/after-dire-season-herdman-says-toronto-fc-players-have-been-told-enough-is-enough/

[los sonadores]

Here's Neil Davidson's piece:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/mls/article/after-dire-season-herdman-says-toronto-fc-players-have-been-told-enough-is-enough/

One thing about readers having access to the reporter’s material is that we can see when they get it wrong.

Hernandez, at least, was clear that they not only didn’t use the 2023 buyout but they don’t currently have enough room to remove Osorio’s DP status. That to do it they have to somehow move players and that even if they could move players (which they hope to do by various difficult or overlooked methods) it would be a DP “comparable” to Osorio. He said that this would only happen if it was “absolutely” the right player and that in fact it was “inefficient” to do this and implied that the way to go was to have “several guys at 750,000” instead of having two low DP wage players. No one suggested they are especially trying to sign another third DP.

Maybe Davidson is thinking of TFC of the Vanney and Leiweke successes… indeed it’s difficult to think of MLSE not being able to afford a substantial third DP.

Davidson did get the rest of it right including - to reinforce his earlier photo of the absurd media availability attendance - the club’s irrelevance in the city.

During the press conference it was sort of too bad Molinaro’s pointed questions to Manning were not really pointed. Instead of ‘how is it that you’ve presided over the best team in MLS becoming, for the last 3 seasons cumulatively the worst team in the league’? He asked a less fact-based question about whether Manning should be employed and attributed the sentiments to “a small number of fans out there”.

Manning may be a nice guy but he’s a wanker whose decisions have been ruining this club for too many few years. His part in the media availability didn’t suggest otherwise.

[los sonadores]

Hernandez admitted that without a proper manager they were “treading water”. Again why his two acquisitions, while they might very well work out, hardly played and given that it added to the club’s many guaranteed contracts he should have waited to spend until he had a manager with an actual direction. Though naturally he was not the one appointing a new manager.

It looks like they’re certainly playing three at the back, the width coming from wingbacks. They didn’t really need to sign an untried winger and and an iffy striker while dead last toward the end of the season. Herdman also mentioned using “a lower intensity build up style” to get more out of the centre backs who had trouble playing in a back four. He also mentioned that things (the roster) “looked bad on paper”.

I hope some brilliant acquisitions are made but it sounds like all are aware that it isn’t going to be easy and they’re going to have to work with what they’ve got.

Interesting note. Herdman likes JMR at left wingback and it sounds like he’s hoping to start him or at least make that one less wingback that needs acquiring. I expect Petretta plays the left of the three centre backs. Rosted will probably also be better in a back three.

JMR’s crosses into Owesu? Doesn’t sound very exciting but I suppose it could work. Maybe more interesting to see what Herdman does with the Italians.

JMR should be studying Criscito… playing with him was the last time Insigne was effective and it wasn’t, I think, just because they were buddies.

I’m still not sure whether Herdman strongly prefers three at the back or if that’s simply his reasonable response to a lack of strong centre backs. He had them with Canada and again here.

[ensco]

Who can name the former TFC player that just set a fairly impressive league record?

[OgtheDim]

I’m still not sure whether Herdman strongly prefers three at the back or if that’s simply his reasonable response to a lack of strong centre backs. He had them with Canada and again here.

Herdman said in his post game presser that 3 CB defences - and I'm paraphrasing from memory here - deal well with the strong DP level forwards pairings we see in MLS.

Sounds like its a tactic to create some defensive stability.

[JoesphNdo]

If we truly are not going to use our buyout in 2023 with this roster then that plus the messaging around osorio as DP tells me the days of MLSE seeing this club as a financial black hole as over

[ag futbol]

I really heard nothing out of that presser that suggested to me we are on the right track. I heard plenty that suggested the opposite.

And none of this is a judgement on Herdman but he has a lot of dumb people above him in management and their incompetence and historical failures are really an anchor on any recovery this team plans to make.

Suspect 2024 will be a write off (yet again) but MLSE might actually get off their butts and do the right thing with Manning.

[jloome]

Who can name the former TFC player that just set a fairly impressive league record?

Probably Griffin Dorsey, goals from right back or something. He's been on a tear lately.

Or Stefan Frei, playoff wins, maybe?

[jloome]

One thing about readers having access to the reporter’s material is that we can see when they get it wrong.

Hernandez, at least, was clear that they not only didn’t use the 2023 buyout but they don’t currently have enough room to remove Osorio’s DP status.

That's mathematically impossible. They need less than $800,000 to buy him down and they've shed more than twice that in salary.

What he probably means is they don't have enough room to WARRANT doing it, as they think they can get more value out of two TAMs than another DP. If they had $3M clear, it wouldn't even be a debate in other words.

Sapong alone accounted for nearly $700,000 of what it would cost to pay down Osorio.

But from his perspective -- and I imagine Herdman's -- the six empty roster slots are a far greater priority, and any money they have is earmarked for that, so they don't have it available.

But in terms of actual payroll, they easily have the money to do that.

Their calculation might be that admitting that will create public demand for another star, when what they need is six more balanced starters, including some TAMs. So they state it as "we can't do that." But their salary list is a matter of public record; mathematically, they could do it easily.

[OgtheDim]

If we truly are not going to use our buyout in 2023 with this roster then that plus the messaging around osorio as DP tells me the days of MLSE seeing this club as a financial black hole as over

Based on what Hernandez said, a team has until the end of the secondary transfer window to use the buyout for that season.


So the 2023 buy out ship has sailed.

[Mr. Inbetween]

Who can name the former TFC player that just set a fairly impressive league record?

Is that former TFC player now in the NFL; w/Dallas Cowboys?

[Mr. Inbetween]

That's mathematically impossible. They need less than $800,000 to buy him down and they've shed more than twice that in salary. What he probably means is they don't have enough room to WARRANT doing it, as they think they can get more value out of two TAMs than another DP. If they had $3M clear, it wouldn't even be a debate in other words. Sapong alone accounted for nearly $700,000 of what it would cost to pay down Osorio. But from his perspective -- and I imagine Herdman's -- the six empty roster slots are a far greater priority, and any money they have is earmarked for that, so they don't have it available. But in terms of actual payroll, they easily have the money to do that.
Their calculation might be that admitting that will create public demand for another star, when what they need is six more balanced starters, including some TAMs. So they state it as "we can't do that." But their salary list is a matter of public record; mathematically, they could do it easily.

Agree with you that essentially, whatever way, there should be/is enough TFC cap space, as well as, non cap financial reprieve; particularly with Altidore off the books finally and BBradley’s mitigated severance? I think Sapong may have represented a half to less than that cap hit compensation you highlight though; IIRC, Nashville may have ate most of his salary?

[ElvistheEvilScotsman]

Based on what Hernandez said, a team has until the end of the secondary transfer window to use the buyout for that season.


So the 2023 buy out ship has sailed.

Makes sense. We didn’t have any players on the roster this season that we would want to cut loose. 🤬

[MikeForbes]

The pool of players available to TFC is bigger than previously thought. Some changes have been made to the SuperDraft.

https://www.mlssoccer.com/superdraft/news/eligible-player-pool-expanded-for-mls-superdraft-presented-by-adidas

[Richard]

https://twitter.com/NeilMDavidson/status/1723005172979257419?s=20

You wouldn't know it by that picture, but TFC is supposedly valued at $500M+ or whatever MLS is extorting out of new prospective owners.

Soccer is dead in this city. :(

[los sonadores]

That's mathematically impossible. They need less than $800,000 to buy him down and they've shed more than twice that in salary.

What he probably means is they don't have enough room to WARRANT doing it, as they think they can get more value out of two TAMs than another DP. If they had $3M clear, it wouldn't even be a debate in other words.

Sapong alone accounted for nearly $700,000 of what it would cost to pay down Osorio.

But from his perspective -- and I imagine Herdman's -- the six empty roster slots are a far greater priority, and any money they have is earmarked for that, so they don't have it available.

But in terms of actual payroll, they easily have the money to do that.

Their calculation might be that admitting that will create public demand for another star, when what they need is six more balanced starters, including some TAMs. So they state it as "we can't do that." But their salary list is a matter of public record; mathematically, they could do it easily.

Maybe so, that all could be true.

Hernandez says it’s more efficient to have several guys at 750,000 rather than a couple of them plus another DP comparable to Oso… sounds like what they would likely do with 3M clear is keep Oso as a DP. How many TAM contracts do they have, three? Johnson, Petretta, Rosted?

The tenor of most of Hernandez and Herdman’s words involved working with what they have and not yet (or possibly ever) over the off season having “a ton of flexibility”.

The actual quote from Hernandez is: “at the moment, full transparency, if we wanted to take Oso off the DP designation today, we couldn’t do it because we have a lot of guaranteed contracts on our books … there’s a world in which we believe we can move a lot of players off our books but we don’t…” and that would not lead to having “a ton of flexibility”.

I’m hoping they buy out Akinola and convince Diomande to terminate his contract and join Stabaek… that would be a good start.

[JoesphNdo]

My take was they wanted to keep the expectations on that third DP slot in check. It's oso or an oso level contract, not a big name