Match Day 22 - TFC @ Orlando - Tuesday July 4 7:38pm - I can bring you in warm, or

[OgtheDim]

I can bring you in cold


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62x19Bepc5s&ab_channel=VideoGame%26Cinemat icSoundtrackArchive


This is the Way

*******

Have at It People

[Red CB Toronto]

Will be very curious to see the approach here with such a short turn around. Will Lorenzo be ready to go after being subbed out early yesterday?

I really do hope Terry gives Luka a shot in net, Greg has had his look in my eyes, giving up 6 goals over the three games he has started, all loses. Thing is Luka could possibly have a future with the Reds, where Greg does not. 2023 is the first time the Reds have played more than two GKs in a season since 2015.

[James17930]

So how long do y'all predict it's going to take to rebuild this team? 5 years? We've obviously spent most of the money in all the wrong places (or something) and it's going to take a while to digest and shit out these massive contracts (like it did with Altidore).

So yeah, 5 years? Is that too pessimistic? 4?

[Gogon]

So how long do y'all predict it's going to take to rebuild this team? 5 years? We've obviously spent most of the money in all the wrong places (or something) and it's going to take a while to digest and shit out these massive contracts (like it did with Altidore).

So yeah, 5 years? Is that too pessimistic? 4?

This presumes the organization is led by someone with a vision of how to construct a competitive modern football team, who has the industry relationships to leverage, and has the bonafides to make a credible case to target prospects. You can't even start the clock ticking until this individual is in place. Sadly, I don't get the sense that setting-up TFC with a proper Czar of Football is a priority for MLSE. So while some iteration of management can replace these albatross contracts as they expire, unless there is massive upgrade at the top, I'll conjecture that 4 years is optimistic and that we're stuck in a do-loop of mediocrity (or worse) unless/until we get new leadership.

[OgtheDim]

Orlando City vs Toronto FC
Exploria Stadium (7:30PM ET)
REF: Guido Gonzales Jr
AR1: Jeremy Kieso
AR2: Adam Garner
4TH: Elvis Osmanovic
VAR: Jon Freemon
AVAR: Jozef Batko

[jloome]

Will be very curious to see the approach here with such a short turn around. Will Lorenzo be ready to go after being subbed out early yesterday?

I really do hope Terry gives Luka a shot in net, Greg has had his look in my eyes, giving up 6 goals over the three games he has started, all loses. Thing is Luka could possibly have a future with the Reds, where Greg does not. 2023 is the first time the Reds have played more than two GKs in a season since 2015.

Arguably a good reason to keep him out. Don't want a goalie's first taste of MLS being crushed repeatedly. I don't care how good he is, it's a higher level and he's not going to make a difference to the weakness of the rest of the lineup, particularly with Hedges injured.

[Ultra & Proud]

So how long do y'all predict it's going to take to rebuild this team? 5 years? We've obviously spent most of the money in all the wrong places (or something) and it's going to take a while to digest and shit out these massive contracts (like it did with Altidore).

So yeah, 5 years? Is that too pessimistic? 4?
It mostly depends on what the league does to accomodate Messi's wishes and they will be forced to do a lot.

With that, I say we will be an average 6,7,8,9 playoff seed in 2025. Total shit until then.

[Hala Hrvatska]

Should be a scorcher tonight in Orlando…hoping we keep it close.

I’d go with Gavran. We have nothing to lose at this point and game experience- even if we get blown out- will help him.

[los sonadores]

Arguably a good reason to keep him out. Don't want a goalie's first taste of MLS being crushed repeatedly. I don't care how good he is, it's a higher level and he's not going to make a difference to the weakness of the rest of the lineup, particularly with Hedges injured.

This is a good point. Given that Dunfield pulled O’Neil for a 16 year old that he is currently coaching with the under 17s I would not be surprised to see Gavrin, but yeah, it remains to be seen if the club can be “turned around” anytime soon.

As for Rangitsingh, he seems good for allowing a goal a game more than need be. So far, to me, he just seems fundamentally unsound. There is probably a reason that before this season he’d played a grand total of 8 MLS matches in a career playing for 7 different clubs. Only 3 of those (with zero starts) was as the “pool” keeper.

[leedsandTFC]

So how long do y'all predict it's going to take to rebuild this team? 5 years? We've obviously spent most of the money in all the wrong places (or something) and it's going to take a while to digest and shit out these massive contracts (like it did with Altidore).

So yeah, 5 years? Is that too pessimistic? 4?

a couple, but there is the potential for quick turnarounds in MLS (and could be even quicker if roster budget rules get relaxed more).

look at cincinatti in 2021 season to now. from worst to best team in MLS in 2 offseasons.

as for massive contracts, the only real immovable one is insigne (although his recent agent change might suggest some interest from elsewhere).

even bernardeschi is movable if we let him leave without a transfer fee.

none of this will happen unless they rebuild the backroom analytics and executive infrastructure of the club to where it was, and that could take time

[James17930]

a couple, but there is the potential for quick turnarounds in MLS (and could be even quicker if roster budget rules get relaxed more).

look at cincinatti in 2021 season to now. from worst to best team in MLS in 2 offseasons.

as for massive contracts, the only real immovable one is insigne (although his recent agent change might suggest some interest from elsewhere).

even bernardeschi is movable if we let him leave without a transfer fee.

none of this will happen unless they rebuild the backroom analytics and executive infrastructure of the club to where it was, and that could take time

The rumour I saw on Twitter says Saudi. That would make sense financially.

[leedsandTFC]

The rumour I saw on Twitter says Saudi. That would make sense financially.

yeah, although ive only seen an incredibly unreliable source report it so far.

could happen, tho. hopefully they give us a transfer fee too!

[Ultra & Proud]

a couple, but there is the potential for quick turnarounds in MLS (and could be even quicker if roster budget rules get relaxed more).

look at cincinatti in 2021 season to now. from worst to best team in MLS in 2 offseasons.

as for massive contracts, the only real immovable one is insigne (although his recent agent change might suggest some interest from elsewhere).

even bernardeschi is movable if we let him leave without a transfer fee.
If we could move both of them then we could probably set ourselves up for a decent 2025. Hopefully the Messi effect means more TAM level players because that will paper over all of our totally shit TAM contracts (MAK, Osorio, Rosted, Petretta).

Selling Insigne hopefully for a small fee, letting Berna go for free, not bothering to bring Laryea back, and finally buying out Diomande should put us decent ground for this offseason but if it's Bill & Hernandez running the show then it will probably just be another PR/Ticket campaign fiasco.

Or Bill will bring back Vanney when LA fires him and we can trade Mabika, Coello, & Kerr for Delgado, Mavinga, and Zavaleta and take another run at being 2017 again.

[leedsandTFC]

If we could move both of them then we could probably set ourselves up for a decent 2025. Hopefully the Messi effect means more TAM level players because that will paper over all of our totally shit TAM contracts (MAK, Osorio, Rosted, Petretta).

Selling Insigne hopefully for a small fee, letting Berna go for free, not bothering to bring Laryea back, and finally buying out Diomande should put us decent ground for this offseason but if it's Bill & Hernandez running the show then it will probably just be another PR/Ticket campaign fiasco.

Or Bill will bring back Vanney when LA fires him and we can trade Mabika, Coello, & Kerr for Delgado, Mavinga, and Zavaleta and take another run at being 2017 again.

i think it's harsh to put hernandez in the same bracket as bill.

all the accounts we've heard on here were that he was challenging bill on several fronts.

he also brought up the key issues of being understaffed and not using analytics properly in his first press conference, neither were things bill would ever talk about.
'
we do need to have bill far away from any decision making at this point tho lol.

[Initial B]

I'm heading to the game tonight while I'm on vacation. Tickets are $17 USD. I don't think I'd pay anymore to see the current product.

[Ultra & Proud]

i think it's harsh to put hernandez in the same bracket as bill.

all the accounts we've heard on here were that he was challenging bill on several fronts.

he also brought up the key issues of being understaffed and not using analytics properly in his first press conference, neither were things bill would ever talk about.
'
we do need to have bill far away from any decision making at this point tho lol.
Problem with Hernandez is that he is unproven and new. It was encouraging that he stood firm against our previous stupidity but it's not a lock that he can rebuild a squad. If we're here talking about a can't miss rebuild and new direction then I would prefer someone more proven. After so many misfires and straight up bonerings we really need a new, smart, atonamous, can't miss football braintrust in place.

[leedsandTFC]

Problem with Hernandez is that he is unproven and new. It was encouraging that he stood firm against our previous stupidity but it's not a lock that he can rebuild a squad. If we're here talking about a can't miss rebuild and new direction then I would prefer someone more proven. After so many misfires and straight up bonerings we really need a new, smart, atonamous, can't miss football braintrust in place.

there's no such thing as a can't miss rebuild.

i just think they need more staff. apparently staff #s been depleted since covid.

[jloome]

i think it's harsh to put hernandez in the same bracket as bill.

all the accounts we've heard on here were that he was challenging bill on several fronts.

he also brought up the key issues of being understaffed and not using analytics properly in his first press conference, neither were things bill would ever talk about.
'
we do need to have bill far away from any decision making at this point tho lol.

The suggestion to me has been he was challenging the current narrative last season.

It's hard to explain how much sway Bob has over the league in general because of getting the US through at the World Cup and because of having LAFC a winner out of the gate. To them, those two things meet their zenith of performance, making the U.S. look like a world football power and increasing franchise values.

If there was any chance he'd change the mood or direction they were going to cling to it, because the league is pervasively involved in the individual clubs and what they choose to do. And that's not just us. But as a "flagship" -- we are seen as such in terms of owner value, forward movement for the league -- there has been pretty massive pressure to see the line that it had to be the players, not Bob.

I suspect without Hernandez saying "we need to do what really works elsewhere" it might have taken even longer. And there was pushback against him from multiple parties who are no longer there. For now, he seems to have won the internal political battle.

I have no idea how they figure out the money. I suspect there are mechanisms to protect cap space when they do these trade-but-pay deals, and even though they're picking up a partial salary, they get full relief, or something like that.

So it'll probably be a buyout, a few trades, some guys sitting who are expensive, some cap relief from the Apple deal (if they meet sub levels as expected, teams are apparently getting over $1M in extra cap space), and some rule changes from Messi being accommodated, which means accommodating Miami's already bloated roster.


Problem with Hernandez is that he is unproven and new. It was encouraging that he stood firm against our previous stupidity but it's not a lock that he can rebuild a squad. If we're here talking about a can't miss rebuild and new direction then I would prefer someone more proven. After so many misfires and straight up bonerings we really need a new, smart, atonamous, can't miss football braintrust in place.

Yeah, that's the big gamble. Being right doesn't mean having answers, necessarily.

[leedsandTFC]

The suggestion to me has been he was challenging the current narrative last season.

It's hard to explain how much sway Bob has over the league in general because of getting the US through at the World Cup and because of having LAFC a winner out of the gate. To them, those two things meet their zenith of performance, making the U.S. look like a world football power and increasing franchise values.

If there was any chance he'd change the mood or direction they were going to cling to it, because the league is pervasively involved in the individual clubs and what they choose to do. And that's not just us. But as a "flagship" -- we are seen as such in terms of owner value, forward movement for the league -- there has been pretty massive pressure to see the line that it had to be the players, not Bob.

I suspect without Hernandez saying "we need to do what really works elsewhere" it might have taken even longer. And there was pushback against him from multiple parties who are no longer there. For now, he seems to have won the internal political battle.

I have no idea how they figure out the money. I suspect there are mechanisms to protect cap space when they do these trade-but-pay deals, and even though they're picking up a partial salary, they get full relief, or something like that.

So it'll probably be a buyout, a few trades, some guys sitting who are expensive, some cap relief from the Apple deal (if they meet sub levels as expected, teams are apparently getting over $1M in extra cap space), and some rule changes from Messi being accommodated, which means accommodating Miami's already bloated roster.



Yeah, that's the big gamble. Being right doesn't mean having answers, necessarily.

all make sense and sounds pretty promising.

[los sonadores]

there's no such thing as a can't miss rebuild.

i just think they need more staff. apparently staff #s been depleted since covid.

Definitely no such thing as a can’t miss rebuild! That is an impossibility. Especially in MLS. It’s the weirdest of leagues and we shouldn’t forget it. As for what’s worked here, our best GM and coach… our ONLY good GM and coach in 16 years of instability and a revolving door were both inexperienced. Bez nothing at all as GM. Vanney had only a season or two as an assistant at a poor club and was certainly no sure thing.

[Ultra & Proud]

there's no such thing as a can't miss rebuild.

i just think they need more staff. apparently staff #s been depleted since covid.
This is true but if we had a guy like Tanner or Lagerway in I would feel more secure that they would know what they are doing and have a very set plan on how we will play and what they need to do to get there. So far I heard analytics and that's about it. We still have no identity and no real plan other than letting the analytics department do their work but there needs to be more than just that.

[Ultra & Proud]

As for what’s worked here, our best GM and coach… our ONLY good GM and coach in 16 years of instability and a revolving door were both inexperienced. Bez nothing at all as GM. Vanney had only a season or two as an assistant at a poor club and was certainly no sure thing.
I think Bez gets too much credit for 2017 because the real groundwork of that was done by Lieweke. Bez just did some tweaks and when Lieweke left we got the likes of Axteke, Khantari, & VDW from Bez.

[jloome]

all make sense and sounds pretty promising.

I wouldn't go quite that far. I'd say it sounds like they've shown some internal humility about what they were doing wrong, and that Manning has accepted that he let his senior management team effectively run too much of the show.

They still have to prove they can fix it.

I mean, better that than "No, we weren't wrong, it just didn't work out" or the usual lack of self-examination these situations kick up.

But I'm not going to assume that means we'll have a winning team next year. Letting it get to this in the first place suggests ample potential to fuck it up again.

(I'm sorry dude, I know I'm being bleak, but really... all of this is just monolithic corporate culture at work. It's never different, anywhere. It always wrecks what came before it and eventually eats itself. We just get to wait and see if whatever it spews up afterwards is a functional football club.)

[los sonadores]

I have no idea how they figure out the money. I suspect there are mechanisms to protect cap space when they do these trade-but-pay deals, and even though they're picking up a partial salary, they get full relief, or something like that.

So it'll probably be a buyout, a few trades, some guys sitting who are expensive, some cap relief from the Apple deal (if they meet sub levels as expected, teams are apparently getting over $1M in extra cap space), and some rule changes from Messi being accommodated, which means accommodating Miami's already bloated roster.
.

Sounds about all the possibilities as far as can be known at the moment.

[leedsandTFC]

I wouldn't go quite that far. I'd say it sounds like they've shown some internal humility about what they were doing wrong, and that Manning has accepted that he let his senior management team effectively run too much of the show.

They still have to prove they can fix it. I mean, better that than "No, we weren't wrong, it just didn't work out" or the usual lack of self-examination these situations kick up.

But I'm not going to assume that means we'll have a winning team next year. Letting it get to this in the first place suggests ample potential to fuck it up again.

(I'm sorry dude, I know I'm being bleak, but really... all of this is just monolithic corporate culture at work. It's never different, anywhere. It always wrecks what came before it and eventually eats itself. We just get to wait and see if whatever it spews up afterwards is a functional football club.)

best case scenario is next year we are a low ranked playoff team and a first or 2nd round exit, then a contender in 2025, imo.

[Red CB Toronto]

Toronto FC
@TorontoFC
·
1m
NEWS | Toronto FC sign defender Adam Pearlman and winger Jesus Batiz to short-term agreements from
@TorontoFCII

This is interesting as TFC has the max four players signed to a short term agreement for tonight , with Luka and Lazar already having signed one on the weekend.

[MikeForbes]

This is gonna suuuuck.

https://twitter.com/TorontoFC/status/1676362737427927046?s=20

[jloome]

This is gonna suuuuck.

https://twitter.com/TorontoFC/status/1676362737427927046?s=20

Still... that looks like Fede is our number 9 tonight. That'll be interesting.

[OgtheDim]

Fede as the PM forward with Akinola as the #9.

[ag futbol]

This is gonna suuuuck.

https://twitter.com/TorontoFC/status/1676362737427927046?s=20
Are we allowed to forfeit? This is pretty sad. Like it’s a struggle to call this a true pro team.

[JonO]

Really would have liked to see Gavran get a shot…

[jloome]

Orlando looks empty. Their crowd must be even later to seats than BMO.

[OgtheDim]

Oh Gawd, its Max Bretos & Brian Dunseth...

[ag futbol]

Oh Gawd, its Max Bretos & Brian Dunseth...
TSN is playing the game. Although I have to laugh at Bretos. I still remember when Beckham was here he’d refer to him by his first name like some bad celebrity humper.

[FiveThreeTwo]

Servania uptop with Akinola... that's definitely a different look. Does Berna just flat refuse to be up top? lol

[ag futbol]

Kaye is in absolute free fall in terms of his form.yikes

[MikeForbes]

Kaye died, I guess.

[Initial B]

I am the only one here in a TFC shirt tonight. Am I a bad person for wishing Kaye needed to be subbed off there? At least the refs seem to be on our side tonight.

[jloome]

LOL, this crowd is firmly behind... Dunseth says. What crowd?

[MikeForbes]

Ayo's beautiful first touch led to that.

[noxx98]

So what's everyone's drink of choice for tonight? :drinking:

[rydermike]

Glad I have the Canada game on tv and this game only on the laptop

[jloome]

Bleh.

Petretta totally loses the man coming in behind him. Does a cursory shoulder check but not enough to see him.

[OgtheDim]

LOL, this crowd is firmly behind... Dunseth says. What crowd?

Yeh, but then he goes on to give the most cogent argument (a goal scored against as I type this but I don't honestly care) about what has happened to Toronto and what is going on, what situation they are in & what needs to be happen.

[ag futbol]

I mean sure, you can blame Petretta but the second Kaye left his man he had two guys to cover. What was he to do? Leave the guy right in front of the goal wide open or watch over his shoulder? Those were the only options in that moment.

[Initial B]

Someone lost their Mark, and it was the guy who raised his hands saying who was marking the scorer.
Edit: They need to get Raj out now. That just destroyed whatever confidence he had.

[leedsandTFC]

incredibly bad defending from petretta.

left his man ridiculously wide open.

top paid LB in MLS btw

[MikeForbes]

What a lovely touch. They got that guy from the SuperDraft. You know, the draft we traded our 3rd overall pick away in a deal for MAK.

[OgtheDim]

Ball watching by a CB in our own 6 box?!?!?!?!

[Hala Hrvatska]

Put in Gavran ffs!!

Manning out tonight. Enough!

[jloome]

Ball watching by a CB in our own 6 box?!?!?!?!

Misjudged McGuire's speed, thought it would go through to Ranjitsingh.

[rydermike]

Misjudged McGuire's speed, thought it would go through to Ranjitsingh.
Still needs to shield it to him just in case. Not just watch and wait

[MikeForbes]

I'd say to trade Ayo, but no one is touching that contract.

[Derko]

MAK prancing around and throwing his arms about, fucking do something

[FiveThreeTwo]

this half hasn't even been about being tactically inferior - we have just been fundamentally piss poor with the basics. I know Berna and Insigne get sh#t for being lazy and not earning their worth at times, but when this is the fellow 10 you gotta work with it would crush anyone's morale. People not picking up their man, passes have been poor as hell and the decisions on where those passes should be going. wth was that 2nd goal lol.

Silver lining to me is this is gonna be true evaluations for this squad - and Akinola and others are about to show why they are dead weight and can be cut at the first possible chance. If guys don't see the serious opportunity they have to step up and provide leadership, consistency or a sense of calmness n quality then they don't deserve to be here when the new coach gets here.

[noxx98]

Yeah I think that's on Ranjitsingh. He should have gone out with more confidence to smother the ball.
Tough situation for Ranjitsingh, I bet his confidence is shot at this point.

[jloome]

See how we drop off the back line press, even though we have a high line ourselves? That's going to cost us.

[tfcfans]

In case it isn’t obvious by now you should bet against TFC every week and assume they will give up multiple goals on the road for sure - it’s a license to print money this year.

Seeing as I can’t sell my season tickets for literally $10 most games it’s my only way to try to get my money back on this garbage that I paid for in order to support “local” soccer.

In other news - Canada is up 4-1 on Cuba.

[Ultra & Proud]

Tough situation for Ranjitsingh, I bet his confidence is shot at this point.

Not sure how or why he would have had confidence to begin with.

He is Freddy Hall level terrible and our season is 2012 level bad.

[PizzaEatingYeti]

Manning out tonight. Enough!

Not gonna happen my friend!

You gonna say this ten and ten and ten and ten and ten and ten more times before it's gonna happen.

:hump:

[spe18]

On the tsn broadcast, they're explaining how bernesdeschi had moved to the no. 10 role.

[Derko]

Orlando have a rookie with 7 goals, wtf do TFC have, nothing, we just aren't good enough to play at this level.

[ag futbol]

I'd say to trade Ayo, but no one is touching that contract.
We have so many bad contracts on the books, we might have to wait until after WC 26 to win again.

[noxx98]

https://i.imgur.com/66RNPrE.jpeg
I went back and watched the first goal again, I understand why Petretta went forward instead of covering the backpost. It does not look like Kaye is in a good position to defend anyone. He's caught in no mans land. He should either be closer to the guy between him and Petretta or marking #10. He's just floating. Still Petretta needed to be aware that the attacker at the back post was unmarked.

[OgtheDim]

Still needs to shield it to him just in case. Not just watch and wait

Yeh, these guys play like "well of course that guy is going to do this so why should I ensure it just works out?" i.e. lazy and lacking in responsibility as if covering for that would be seen to be showing off or worrying too much. Well we ain't winning so maybe its time ensure.

[FiveThreeTwo]

the more we lose and the more our morale gets blown to bits and the lack of quality we have in relation to our total salary... Curious what kind of manager is gonna want to come here and pick this project up. No wonder Manning is looking for someone who's new and just wants to break into the league. Do we really thing we could convince a legit manager to come in here and restart the club with the current dynamics... without paying an absolute dump truck worth of cash? We're so imbalanced all over the park and shallow in depth with injury issues its crazy. To me it would be career suicide for any legit promising manager to come in here and try to work with these constraints no?

edit* I know this is our B squad with a lot of gold cup and injuries but still think the point stands

[Bushmancan]

^^^^well we should get a few good super draft picks

[OgtheDim]

One thing that bugs me is except for Coello, the mids can't make a forward pass.

And Rajitsingh at age 29 is just not good enough at this level - I do not understand why he is playing.

[JoesphNdo]

Not gonna happen my friend!

You gonna say this ten and ten and ten and ten and ten and ten more times before it's gonna happen.

:hump:

To be fair, the same thing was said here about Bradley and not long ago at all

You're probably right, but you never know

[Hala Hrvatska]

It will take a big long term contract for someone want to take on this mess. A guaranteed deal.

We have holes all over the park.

[jloome]

One thing that bugs me is except for Coello, the mids can't make a forward pass.

And Rajitsingh at age 29 is just not good enough at this level - I do not understand why he is playing.

He got a deal because between his MLS pool duties he was USL keeper of the year for a year. But he's barely seen the field in two years; even if he once had passable skills for MLS level, he's not going to keep them if he's not playing at all.

Basically, he wasn't a bad swing at a backup. But then to sign another guy and use that other guy in practise, and consign Ranjitsingh to playing with the kids, basically fucked any chance of him having even a backup career.

[ag futbol]

https://i.imgur.com/66RNPrE.jpeg
I went back and watched the first goal again, I understand why Petretta went forward instead of covering the backpost. It does not look like Kaye is in a good position to defend anyone. He's caught in no mans land. He should either be closer to the guy between him and Petretta or marking #10. He's just floating. Still Petretta needed to be aware that the attacker at the back post was unmarked.
Exactly what I saw too. Not saying he’s entirely blameless but he was left in a tough spot with a split second to think.

[MikeForbes]

Orlando is just in a different league.

[CorrwgBach]

Orlando is just in a different league.

There’s probably 28 teams in that different league

[Hala Hrvatska]

I wonder if Manning is even watching.

[MikeForbes]

There’s probably 28 teams in that different league

We'll see who gets promoted between us and Inter Miami.

[jloome]

Orlando is just in a different league.

Everyone is, with the current state of our roster.

We're missing, realistically, four starters and we're already a poorly constructed roster to begin with.

Achh, for the third or fourth time Coello dodges two guys, lays a ball off to Servania... who promptly plays it back to him badly wide, forcing him to foul to stop a breakaway.

Bob had terrible talent judgment. He likes guys who are fast and athletic but most of our domestic players -- particularly Akinola, Servania and Kaye -- have terrible, terrible fundamentals. Can't trap cleanly, can't pass short and safe, can't read the available space.

[Hala Hrvatska]

Orlando looks like prime Real Madrid vs my Friday night beer league team.

[ag futbol]

Everyone is, with the current state of our roster.

We're missing, realistically, four starters and we're already a poorly constructed roster to begin with.

Achh, for the third or fourth time Coello dodges two guys, lays a ball off to Servania... who promptly plays it back to him badly wide, forcing him to foul to stop a breakaway.

Bob had terrible talent judgment. He likes guys who are fast and athletic but most of our domestic players -- particularly Akinola, Servania and Kaye -- have terrible, terrible fundamentals. Can't trap cleanly, can't pass short and safe, can't read the available space.
Kaye’s first touch has always been terrible. There was a brief moment in his career where he was good progressively passing though the midfield third and crashing the box for the odd goal but that now seems to be a distant memory.

Coello’s passing has been great. He doesn’t panic and take easy options. Makes the defense shift around a lot.

[jloome]

Competent versus incompetent.

[Hala Hrvatska]

Remind me again all we allowed bb to give up to get his other son Kaye here? We got totally fleeced.

Kaye sorry to say is brutal. Tfc2 level at most.

[Derko]

Kaye’s first touch has always been terrible. There was a brief moment in his career where he was good progressively passing though the midfield third and crashing the box for the odd goal but that now seems to be a distant memory.

Coello’s passing has been great. He doesn’t panic and take easy options. Makes the defense shift around a lot.

So Kaye should not be on the field for TFC, Is he not supposed to be the experienced leader, I do not see it.

[OgtheDim]

Competent versus incompetent.


To be fair...most of these guys with the exception of Bernadeschi should not be playing the amount of games & minutes they are playing - there comes a time when recovery has to occur and these guys have not been given it - and the heat ain't gonna help.

e.g. as much as I rag on him, I think Servania, in a spot starter / sub situation could learn a lot, especially if given training via game film & shown responsibility and modelled that by his fellow mids. He ain't getting that playing this much.


Bob was crap at subs. But almost every team has 5 "nailed on starters" and the rest are in and out depending on form & fitness & recovery. Bob went with 11 guys nailed on and that is just bad roster construction.



********

Dunseth is way better then I remember - he's got our situation down to a t & he's all but said BB was incompetent & BM hasn't been much better.

[FiveThreeTwo]

Kaye’s first touch has always been terrible. There was a brief moment in his career where he was good progressively passing though the midfield third and crashing the box for the odd goal but that now seems to be a distant memory.

Coello’s passing has been great. He doesn’t panic and take easy options. Makes the defense shift around a lot.

Not to pile on the hate for the guy, but not only his first touch- but his agility on his toes, and the overall positioning to receive a pass. Feels like anytime he receives a ball (even after shouting to have it) it looks like he's just received a heavy heavy pass caught between his feet and he's gotta fish it out and control it before he can even do anything with it. It looks like he's never ready or in the right spot to receive a ball let alone turn and make the pass or touch. Maybe that's what you meant too tho. Crazy he's the leader on the midfield and he looks opposite of calm and ready

[jloome]

Not to pile on the hate for the guy, but not only his first touch- but his agility on his toes, and the overall positioning to receive a pass. Feels like anytime he receives a ball (even after shouting to have it) it looks like he's just received a heavy heavy pass caught between his feet and he's gotta fish it out and control it before he can even do anything with it. Maybe that's what you meant too tho. Crazy he's the leader on the midfield and he looks opposite of calm and ready

Yeah, he's truly bad at receiving and turning. In the last game, when he turned to find space to pass to the goalie.... and turned inside... man, that was dumb.

He frequently traps late and tries to use his sole instead of his instep, juggles it, or trips over it.

The only times he's ever looked competent have been when we've had most of our starters and had a rare game in ascendency, like Charlotte last season.

He does hit the odd sweet long pass, but that's about it.

[jloome]

Dunseth is way better then I remember - he's got our situation down to a t & he's all but said BB was incompetent & BM hasn't been much better.

Yeah, he's been solid. First American commentator other than Conrad/Pierce to say Bob out-and-out failed and also to say Bernardeschi wasn't wrong.

[CorrwgBach]

XG of 0.05 must be getting to some sort of record?

[rydermike]

Jesus is on

[MikeForbes]

Terry thinks just because he coached a couple of these guys they are gonna change the game. Coello and Mabika out too is laughable.

[jloome]

Kids get to try and turn it around. Isn't this basically capitulation? I mean... we have no chance of coming back, the way we're playing so I guess, but....

Coello and Mabika were two of our only competent players. Why is he taking them out? Prevent injury?

Edit: Actually, Coello makes sense if it's for match fitness, as this is his first start in two months. But Mabika?

[ag futbol]

What is Caldwell smoking. He pulled out of that challenge and barely grazed his leg. Yellow at best.

[jloome]

Heyo, what's this now? Batiz appears to have the requisite speed and energy to not look like a useless log out there.

[rydermike]

What is Caldwell smoking. He pulled out of that challenge and barely grazed his leg. Yellow at best.
I'm no Caldwell fan, but what he said was accurate. Bernie's studs were up. If he caught him, it's a possible red for studs to the ankle. He didn't catch him though, so it's moot.

[ag futbol]

I'm no Caldwell fan, but what he said was accurate. Bernie's studs were up. If he caught him, it's a possible red for studs to the ankle. He didn't catch him though, so it's moot.
Showed it from the replay on the side. Year he had his studs up but he pulled back, never touched him with the studs. He slid through and barely graced his back foot with his shin (as it slid along the ground).

[rydermike]

Showed it from the replay on the side. Year he had his studs up but he pulled back, never touched him with the studs. He slid through and barely graced his back foot with his shin (as it slid along the ground).
Exactly. He didn't catch him because he pulled back, so no red. But the studs should've never been up in the first place, regardless of him pulling them back. It's an unnecessary risk. Get the toe down on the slide. Either way its a moot point now

[jloome]

Kaye arguing with his goalie about the shot he didn't block.

[MikeForbes]

#SavedByThePostFC

[Derko]

I am not saying I have a hate on for MAK, he is just a horrible player, but thinks he is a great player.

[rydermike]

I am not saying I have a hate on for MAK, he is just a horrible player, but thinks he is a great player.
Looking forward to Kaye throwing another water bottle if he gets "undeservedly" subbed off

[Initial B]

Raj just gave Kaye a talking to after that last play. Kaye just kind of hung his head and nodded. I think there might be morale issues...

[Ultra & Proud]

Too bad MLS never made a rule to trade players and GAM for buyouts. I would start collecting them big time.

[ag futbol]

Exactly. He didn't catch him because he pulled back, so no red. But the studs should've never been up in the first place, regardless of him pulling them back. It's an unnecessary risk. Get the toe down on the slide. Either way its a moot point now
Ah! See your point now, hard to argue with that

[OgtheDim]

I think that is actually recovery time for guys in this heat & I have no problem taking off 2 decent guys so they can be rested more for Saturday. Mabika has been great but give him a rest and put on the kid.

[OgtheDim]

Raj just gave Kaye a talking to after that last play. Kaye just kind of hung his head and nodded. I think there might be morale issues...

I thought Kaye was arguing saying "don't worry about it"

[Hala Hrvatska]

Great so Saturday night no Insigne and Fede suspended.

Geez 😒

[MikeForbes]

Bye, Bernie. Two straight games he has tried to get taken off. This time he succeeded.

[ag futbol]

Okay I want to see the other view but looks like he walked to him but never touched him.

[benito]

That’s silly. Has to be smarter than that.

[jloome]

Yeah, what a mess.

[OgtheDim]

Hmm.......yeh, that's not a leader. And he might get an extra game for arguing after.

[ag futbol]

That’s silly. Has to be smarter than that.
Yeah, that’s sort of the bottom line. But I would have liked to see a VAR check at least.

[FiveThreeTwo]

I know he hasn't been all that great, but is there some extra context that Caldwell knows about Berna lol... he's just been popping off on the guy over the past few games over anything that happens in the game, basically since the article came out. We all know Berna hasn't been up to his paycheck and that red card was dumb as hell, but it feels like caldwell has some extra beef against the guy

[Ultra & Proud]

Great so Saturday night no Insigne and Fede suspended.

Geez 😒

It's not like either of them does any more than this Batiz. Might as well just use him and kids.

[rydermike]

This team is a comedy show

[nick.mastro]

Hate to say it.. but this season might just be over

[OgtheDim]

I know he hasn't been all that great, but is there some extra context that Caldwell knows about Berna lol... he's just been popping off on the guy over the past few games over anything that happens in the game, basically since the article came out. We all know Berna hasn't been up to his paycheck and that red card was dumb as hell, but it feels like caldwell has some extra beef against the guy

All the TSN guys sound extremely butt hurt at Apple TV not hiring them.


And Caldwell is rather stuck in the old school way of thinking.

[leedsandTFC]

Bernardeschi should never play for the club again


Just embarrassing as fuck and incredibly toxic.

[benito]

Yeah, that’s sort of the bottom line. But I would have liked to see a VAR check at least.

it’s hard to see what he did and they didn’t show clear replays on AppleTV

[leedsandTFC]

Great so Saturday night no Insigne and Fede suspended.

Geez 😒

Bernardeschi suspended is a win, he's been abysmal for months.

[ag futbol]

it’s hard to see what he did and they didn’t show clear replays on AppleTV
Same with TSN. Looks like dude took a dive but he never should have gone over there.

I think this is last I want to see of Vape God on TFC

[jloome]

Bernardeschi suspended is a win, he's been abysmal for months.

I'm just amazed we have another midfielder with speed we haven't even seen this season. Play Batiz left, Kerr right. We still don't have a striker but at least we'll spend some time in their end.

[CorrwgBach]

Bernardeschi suspended is a win, he's been abysmal for months.

I’d say he wanted out and did it on purpose.

[Hala Hrvatska]

Kaye another horrible clearance. Credit to the keeper for an amazing save.

[portu]

Berna smirk and wink on twitter, surprised it's not immediately blowing up

[ronzilla]

Seen the replay. Fede slightly bumped him with his chest and player goes down like he was shot.

Soft second yellow.

[OgtheDim]

Hate to say it.. but this season might just be over

If what has been discussed is true, the team knows this too - they will never admit it but we are playing to get people stuff to be better in 2024.

[Bushmancan]

Changing topic. Osorio has played 4 games in the past 2 weeks … tonight 95+ minutes. Will play a full 90 again on Sunday. I am glad he will at least come back game fit. So we might have one DP. Fire Manning!!

[Hala Hrvatska]

Is this rock bottom or can we go lower?😤

If mlse has any care towards this club, manning is fired tonight. Do not let him make another personnel move. The damage he has done to us is disgusting.

[ag futbol]

Changing topic. Osorio has played 4 games in the past 2 weeks … tonight 95+ minutes. Will play a full 90 again on Sunday. I am glad he will at least come back game fit. So we might have one DP. Fire Manning!!
Have you watched how he’s playing? Dare I say it, Canada is doing us a favour running him out until he finds some form. He looks awful.

[rydermike]

Luca Petrasso being subbed on and getting a goal or assist for Orlando would be icing on the cake

[portu]

Is this rock bottom or can we go lower?

If mlse has any care towards this club, manning is fired tonight. Do not let him make another personnel move. The damage he has done to us is disgusting.
If they had any care they'd be sitting in a boardroom for a full week talking about this and setting out next steps. But do they?

[rydermike]

Have you watched how he’s playing? Dare I say it, Canada is doing us a favour running him out until he finds some form. He looks awful.

He played pretty well today. Scored, had two goals called back offside, couple other nice chances

[rydermike]

:facepalm:

[Ultra & Proud]

Is this rock bottom or can we go lower?

Can always go lower. Look at us now. We went from draws, to low scoring losses, to multiple goal losses. Up next; blow outs.

[Hala Hrvatska]

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at this point.

Absolute s.hitshow. 🤬

[benito]

Yikes

[OgtheDim]

If Rajitsingh plays on Saturday, these guys are WAAAAAY more stupid then we realise.

[Slick]

I'm not sure I can stomach another rebuild with Manning in charge.

[ag futbol]

I love how Caldwell is waxing posting about “nobody is bigger than the club”

Well I hate to say it Steven but there’s someone who has always put themselves before the club and it’s our abysmal ownership group. And with the exception of Leiweke, I would say the same of every president we’ve ever had.

I saw a comment on Twitter the other day I liked. It basically said TFC isn’t offering club football, more so a “soccer themed experience” devoid of character or authenticity. Couldn’t be more bang on.

[Bushmancan]

Have you watched how he’s playing? Dare I say it, Canada is doing us a favour running him out until he finds some form. He looks awful.

I am just stunned at the decisions Manning has made. We had the playbook for a great organization. It is almost as if he has actually tried to destroy TFC. Like a brilliant plan, he cannot be allowed to do anymore transactions.

[portu]

BIG yikes - it hurts me deeply to watch this.

I usually have too many words, for months I've had none.

[Ultra & Proud]

If Rajitsingh plays on Saturday, these guys are WAAAAAY more stupid then we realise.

I already wrote off Dunfield for starting him today. Anyone with eyes and sense could have seen that this guy has disaster written all over him. He's the worst GK I've seen play in MLS in probably a decade or more.

[Initial B]

Well at least I should get my money's worth from the fireworks show after the game.

[ag futbol]

He played pretty well today. Scored, had two goals called back offside, couple other nice chances
He literally got bullied off the ball and the Cuban player walked in and scored. I’ve watched him get rag dolled multiple times in the last few games.

I appreciate the goals but if you’re getting out muscled and out paced like that by semi pros from bottom feeder CONCACAF teams, it’s a real issue.

[OgtheDim]

I'm pretty darn sure some of these subs are because they want to get enough info to be able to do metrics on these guys.

[rydermike]

Four on the Fourth of July

[jloome]

Men against boys.

[portu]

I'm pretty darn sure some of these subs are because they want to get enough info to be able to do metrics on these guys.
Fireable offence in my opinion. This is a match not a training pitch. Hope you're wrong.

[Richard]

"o say can you see......"

[Hala Hrvatska]

Manning out!!!!! 😡😡😡😡🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬😡😡😡🤬🤬!

[leedsandTFC]

remember when bernardeschi was annoyed insigne was given the armband?

lol

this guy is an embarrassment, kerr is legitimately a more effective player at this level..

i never want to see him play for the club again.

[ag futbol]

I'm pretty darn sure some of these subs are because they want to get enough info to be able to do metrics on these guys.
Totally agree. It looks like we start the game with the idea of being competitive but the second it falls apart they look like they are turning into a training exercise.

[leedsandTFC]

Manning out!!!!! 郎郎郎郎郎郎郎!
he really needs to go.

he's gotten virtually every single decision wrong.

if he doesn't get the boot this offseason there's nothing he can do to get it.

i put 90% of this mess on him.

[Richard]

Today I feel American. USA, USA, USA.

[Ultra & Proud]

I'm pretty darn sure some of these subs are because they want to get enough info to be able to do metrics on these guys.

Might as well make the rest of 2023 another extended preseason like 2022.

Two things:

1) FIRE MANNING

2) Rollback to year one prices. They fucking deserve it for this.

[rydermike]

Might as well sub on Pearlman and let him get a debut since this is done

Edit: didn't notice the JMR sub and that we're out of subs

[PizzaEatingYeti]

I saw a comment on Twitter the other day I liked. It basically said TFC isn’t offering club football, more so a “soccer themed experience” devoid of character or authenticity. Couldn’t be more bang on.

Yeah, I saw that too.
That comment was spot om.

This lack of onfield product was and it is all about the MLSE board.

[Richard]

I love how Caldwell is waxing posting about “nobody is bigger than the club”

Well I hate to say it Steven but there’s someone who has always put themselves before the club and it’s our abysmal ownership group. And with the exception of Leiweke, I would say the same of every president we’ve ever had.

I saw a comment on Twitter the other day I liked. It basically said TFC isn’t offering club football, more so a “soccer themed experience” devoid of character or authenticity. Couldn’t be more bang on.

This club had like 3-4 years in its entire existence where it felt like there was a football culture, top to bottom.

Somehow we managed to fritter away any legacy of that historical MLS team which won the cup and supporters shield.

[ag futbol]

2) Rollback to year one prices. They fucking deserve it for this.
Year one prices? They should be charging CPL prices for this garbage.

[Ultra & Proud]

Year one prices? They should be charging CPL prices for this garbage.

If they're going to treat our paying seasons like preseason then we should be paying what TFC2 charges.

[OgtheDim]

Fireable offence in my opinion. This is a match not a training pitch. Hope you're wrong.

Well we fired the guy who never did that - because most teams do a version of it.

[jloome]

Well that was comprehensively one of our worst performances ever.

[Slick]

My account rep reached out to meet late last week asking how I'm doing after the last few games at home. Let's just say my response was anything but positive.

I don't know how anyone would renew their season seats after the shit show this year.

[FiveThreeTwo]

have a weird feeling that could be the last time we see Berna on the pitch. Maybe not, maybe i'm thinking too much in extremes- but looking back on that card its a guy who has 0 f's left for this club, the players, the fans, the coaches etc and no longer cares even keeping it together enough for the sake of the paycheck.

does he get sat even after his suspension and demand a move back to italy anywhere, including taking a pay cut? He doesn't seem to be able to hold it together tactfully even if he's looking to move on. Nobody who really wants to stay at the club and help battle the adversity would have played like that

[OgtheDim]

have a weird feeling that could be the last time we see Berna on the pitch. ...

It had that feeling...like he knows he is being shopped.

[Slick]

Does this officially remove Terry as the next candidate?

[ronzilla]

Fede is hot headed just like Seba who choked a player and got sent off.

[Ultra & Proud]

Does this officially remove Terry as the next candidate?

He removed himself when he started Ranjitsingh tonight. No coaching staff should remain. It really should be everyone from every department gone. Need a full, complete, fuck 2017, reset.

[Hala Hrvatska]

No excusing Fede getting sent off. But he went from playing with world class players and coaches and for a Euro winner to playing with a rag tag collection of journeymen, tfc2 level hacks, and washed up players around him. Has to be do frustrating even if getting paid a boatload to do it. There is literally no talent whatsoever on this team.

That was embarrassing. Another no shot on target game. They literally toyed with us all night.

Maybe for good luck will say it again, fire Manning. Please mlse for the love of all that is good and Holy, fire him now. Tonight.

[Bushmancan]

Do we have any more young kids with pace that we could exchange for slower, older players without stamina because that tactic is working so well for us. 7 points out of an available 30 in our past 10.

[CorrwgBach]

Do we have any more young kids with pace that we could exchange for slower, older players without stamina because that tactic is working so well for us. 7 points out of an available 30 in our past 10.

When are the Italians coming, is it this year?

[JonO]

Yeah, that’s sort of the bottom line. But I would have liked to see a VAR check at least.
Don’t think VAR can check a yellow. Only a straight red.

Hate the inconsistency though. Was a really soft yellow and the punch in the back on Kaye early in the game got nothing.

[nick.mastro]

How do you even rebuild/restructure this team with all the contracts that have been signed. We’re in a way deeper hole than we were last year

[Ultra & Proud]

How do you even rebuild/restructure this team with all the contracts that have been signed. We’re in a way deeper hole than we were last year

And we're also a lot worse. Hard to believe after last year but here we are.

[ag futbol]

And we're also a lot worse. Hard to believe after last year but here we are.
This. The Ali Curtis mess looks like child’s play compared to where we are now.

[Ultra & Proud]

This. The Ali Curtis mess looks like child’s play compared to where we are now.

Our worst season ever was 2012.

I can't see us topping that win total of 5 this season. The points, probably not either. I wouldn't be totally shocked to have us lose out the remainder. We're not a MLS quality team.

[OgtheDim]

JH indicated in his presser that things could be done to free cap to get a striker but it would not really be effective until 2024. I suspect there is a way out but my gawd this is depressing after the "we are going to spend money and go big and be great again" vibes.

[Areathrasher]

Is there any point bringing in anyone this window? Maybe a loan or two but nothing permanent. Give the new coach a clean slate in Jan. JH will have to start the culling now though...

[Ultra & Proud]

Is there any point bringing in anyone this window? Maybe a loan or two but nothing permanent. Give the new coach a clean slate in Jan. JH will have to start the culling now though...

I would only try to do outbound moves for GAM or cash, draft picks, international roster spots.

[Bushmancan]

I would only try to do outbound moves for GAM or cash, draft picks, international roster spots.

This … because this time we don’t have many assets to bargain with. Bob and Bill gave them all away for nothing.

[SirBobSaget]

If Rajitsingh plays on Saturday, these guys are WAAAAAY more stupid then we realise.

How dumb is it to sign a backup that will be away for 5 matches when he needs to cover for the -#1 being away.

[Hala Hrvatska]

How dumb is it to sign a backup that will be away for 5 matches when he needs to cover for the -#1 being away.

Fireable offense actually. Mind numblingly stupid move.

PS I wish Canada called up Kaye...watching him get run around doing nothing...and putting his hands up blaming others after countless giveaways of his own makes my blood pressure sky rocket...lol.

[ag futbol]

https://twitter.com/AustinDavid22/status/1677064425461932032
Was this not apparent during the game? VAR official should be reprimanded if it wasn’t flagged. And the match official should be reprimanded if he didn’t review it

[wopchop]

https://twitter.com/AustinDavid22/status/1677064425461932032
Was this not apparent during the game? VAR official should be reprimanded if it wasn’t flagged. And the match official should be reprimanded if he didn’t review it
It was extremely apparent.
I guess Bernadeschi's red card still stands though?

[Ultra & Proud]

It was extremely apparent.
I guess Bernadeschi's red card still stands though?
Probably just changed the second yellow to not leaving the field in a timely manner since they fined him for that too.

[ronzilla]

Fede bumped his chest, that was all, as it was clearly shown on the replay. The red card should be retracted.

[OgtheDim]

Molinaro just lays into TFC in his video blog today

"Complete shit show"

"worst TFC effort ever"