Next Coach discussion - update Herdman is now coach

[Oldtimer]

We can dream of a top European coach coming in, I just don't see that happening. Much more likely a known MLS coach (most likely American).

If Bill decided to bring back the past the two top coaches have been Greg Vanney and Chris Cummins.

The most winning coach is TFC history was Greg Vanney. He might welcome a return if he had actual control. He's not doing well in LA, but it's not all his fault, there's factors beyond his control for that.

The next most winning coach was Chris Cummins. He might want to come back now that Mo Johnston isn't in charge. He's currently managing a non-league team in England whose main stand looks like this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/82/Moor_Park%2C_Chester_le_Street.jpg/1920px-Moor_Park%2C_Chester_le_Street.jpg

[ag futbol]

Shouldn't this be "[Insert name later] deathwatch" thread? I'm just trying to save us all time here :smile5:

[djking2]

I hear Ted Lasso's looking for work

[jloome]

They probably wouldn't get him but Marcello Gallardo is still available.

So is Graham Potter, who did quite well at smaller clubs before Chelsea.

I'd probably hire a guy you'd all hate, Luke Garrard at Boreham Wood in the English National League. Has no budget, the team plays on a shit pitch and is basically semi-pro, wages are so low. And yet they've beaten three league teams in the last two years in the FA Cup, including knocking off Bournemouth last year, 96 places ahead of them in the pyramid.

Anyone who can turn a team of virtual part-timers into a squad that regularly competes with and beats much bigger teams probably deserves a look somewhere.

[Ultra & Proud]

I'm not saying this is good or anything I would want but as soon as I thought of getting an overseas manager I thought of Gerrard.

Bill cannot say no to wining & dining, (happy) press conferences, and PR campaigns for ticket sales.

[jloome]

I'm not saying this is good or anything I would want but as soon as I thought of getting an overseas manager I thought of Gerrard.

Bill cannot say no to wining & dining, (happy) press conferences, and PR campaigns for ticket sales.

I don't think that's the profile they're looking for. He doesn't have enough winning experience, with his only success at Rangers largely credited by people in football to Michael Beale, his assistant ... who is now manager of Rangers. I never say never when the info I have is so thin, but they're not looking for a "name" unless it's one that has a track record.

That's also why I suspect it won't be a lower league guy, even if good.

[los sonadores]

Maybe we need two new threads - a new coach and a new GM/sporting director? Unlikely it’s going to be another single hire for both roles.

If it is going to be an MLS lifer American the only unattached guy who might be up to it, seems to me, is Caleb Porter. Not necessarily a good fit for the Italians but for that we’d probably have to look to Europe. And hah, was Porter a Bez hire at Columbus?

Who are the ex-MLS coaches who went to Europe and are currently unattached? Is Vieira still without a job?He might be as much as we can hope for. Except that if he did agree to it he’d probably be gone the instant a better gig came up.

[FiveThreeTwo]

Hopefully this is still in scope of new coach/next version of TFC, but after that article came out earlier, and hearing things like jloomes source talking about manning getting off his tower, seeing a game first hand in cinci and realizing we actually don’t look all that cohesive even when we do hold the ball lol… that manning finally realizes he’s truly too far away from the day to day monitoring of the team, and needs to find himself a football/transfer/talent savvy, smart as hell individual to sit under him as a technical/sporting director with more control and influence over club decisions and tasks.

Would that create a Dubas/Shanny/bez situation again where the tech/sporting director wants to absorb the prez’ gig? Most likely, but it’s clear he’s detached & doesn’t have the skill set to take on tasks like finding the right DPs to integrate. He needs to find himself another bez who works with the coach to craft a sustainable end product/squad that builds on pillars such as actual top tier scouting, analytics and incremental improvement in youth coaching/development of players [pipeline], medical and health science approaches [reduce injuries and career longevity] and good sound transfer policy.

It isn’t just that our on field tactics and results have been bad, there’s been absolutely 0 mojo or outward appearing [to us at least] quality in any other area of the teams operations since bez left (with Leiweke) and we’re gonna stay just as unsustainable and shit if we don’t fix the underlying foundation. We can’t just rely on 3 big ass DP players to sell seats and wow factor every 3-5 years. Leiweke might have been the loudest guy in the room, and was MLSE C suite, but he at least knew where his weaknesses lie and strengthened those blind spots with the best relative talent he could find [bez, mls cap designer] to support his ambitions for the club.

we just spent 14M a year on insigne, with the business case to the board being his jersey sales, skill would put butts in the seats and give our club some energy and make us temporary playoff favourites. You telling me you couldn’t budget a restructure to hire a top sporting football lead with a small team of associates to architect the clubs ways into a more sustainable pipeline of success for 14M yearly x Insignes contract term, and not generate equal fan hype/ticket sales/playoff push as the first biz case? Bullshit. If manning thought Bob was ‘that guy’, then he was way off. We can’t do this all encompassing coach/technical director/single point of failure, wannabe Sir Alex Ferguson type role again. Not MLS in 2023, unless the chequebook is about to become blank cheque levels. I think that role needs to be made and established - every big club/successful club is setup like that now.

*edit cause noticed topic over diff thread for org structure from sonadoros. I can move this reflection if it needs to be moved

[leedsandTFC]

viera would be an interesting one, potentially.

[ensco]

Thread hijack alert! I think this should be the Next Sporting Director and not the Next Coach thread…

This time, let's cut the crap and stop splitting the President and Sporting Director role. The candidate should replace both Manning as President and Bob as Sporting Director. Let the new leader hire the coach.

Dane Murphy is an obvious candidate: he has had ever increasing, big roles at DCU, Barnsley, Nottingham Forest

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/articles/c72rq655ng3o

[ag futbol]

Maybe we need two new threads - a new coach and a new GM/sporting director? Unlikely it’s going to be another single hire for both roles.

If it is going to be an MLS lifer American the only unattached guy who might be up to it, seems to me, is Caleb Porter. Not necessarily a good fit for the Italians but for that we’d probably have to look to Europe. And hah, was Porter a Bez hire at Columbus?

Who are the ex-MLS coaches who went to Europe and are currently unattached? Is Vieira still without a job?He might be as much as we can hope for. Except that if he did agree to it he’d probably be gone the instant a better gig came up.
I'd be good with splitting this. And fine with me if the coach is a hired gun but make the sporting director someone more permanent.

[Oldtimer]

We don't know what the future structure of the club leadership will be, but we know we need a new coach. So let's keep this thread for now.


Shouldn't this be "[Insert name later] deathwatch" thread? I'm just trying to save us all time here :smile5:

:smilielol5:

[stevep]

I will be utterly shocked if it’s anybody but Andrea Pirlo

[los sonadores]

We don't know what the future structure of the club leadership will be, but we know we need a new coach. So let's keep this thread for now.



:smilielol5:

Fair enough. I’m assuming Manning will give some indication during the press conference of what he and his colleagues have in mind.

[OgtheDim]

Hope

Today...I feel this..for the first time in a long time


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUjkgnLpWQc&ab_channel=GiuliaZarantonello

[ensco]

If we are doing Italian happy songs….


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f45dIGd-kK4

[Ultra & Proud]

I will be utterly shocked if it’s anybody but Andrea Pirlo
Going by the predicted criteria, he falls short.

Rafa Benitez?

Nope. Just saw he went to Celta a few days ago.

[jloome]

Going by the predicted criteria, he falls short.

Rafa Benitez?

Nope. Just saw he went to Celta a few days ago.

I have to imagine Caleb Porter would be considered. But maybe they'll look at the Italians and want someone with more international profile.

[jloome]

Thread hijack alert! I think this should be the Next Sporting Director and not the Next Coach thread…

This time, let's cut the crap and stop splitting the President and Sporting Director role. The candidate should replace both Manning as President and Bob as Sporting Director. Let the new leader hire the coach.

Dane Murphy is an obvious candidate: he has had ever increasing, big roles at DCU, Barnsley, Nottingham Forest

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/articles/c72rq655ng3o

He's also tight with the front office already from before the Richie deal, which he cemented. He might be more patient though, and waiting for another European crack.

[Slick]

Hope

Today...I feel this..for the first time in a long time


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUjkgnLpWQc&ab_channel=GiuliaZarantonello

Good choice

[MikeForbes]

Conte's name will come up.

[OgtheDim]

Whatever happens....we all know who the GK coach is going to be next season

[Ultra & Proud]

Whatever happens....we all know who the GK coach is going to be next season

And the physios.

[ag futbol]

Conte's name will come up.
Oh, THAT guy, working in MLS? With his temper and task-master nature? With tactically dim MLS players? With MLS officials?

How long is the sentence for manslaughter again? Better tell him in advance and to do it during a home game.

[jloome]

I wonder if the Tata to Miami thing is set in stone. The legend would have it Messi far prefers Gallardo, who is the winningest coach in Argentine league history now. Tata allegedly didn't get along with Messi very well.

Probably wishful thinking in either case.

[ag futbol]

So I tortured myself by listening to Extra Time today. They devoted about 30 minutes to Bradley / TFC. With the exception of Kyle they are myopic in their views of Bradley. But there were a few good nuggets around the edges.

- supposedly after 2017 we have lost a ton of executive talent and haven’t replaced it. Sort of advanced the narrative Leiweke built it and Manning is just not keeping pace (unsurprisingly, they were very critical of Manning).
- the atmosphere around the club is such a shit show, they have multiple players off the record saying they would go anywhere just to get out.

I came away more concerned than when I started and think this club is going nowhere until Bill is turfed and under no circumstances should he be making any more hires. I mean honestly, who takes a month to fire Bradley after that Athletic article is released? That’s an embarrassment if there ever was one.

[jloome]

I'm told they're casting a wide net, but starting domestically. I assume that means Canadian, or in Canada; might also mean the U.S. Maybe they're thinking of poaching someone particular?

[leedsandTFC]

So I tortured myself by listening to Extra Time today. They devoted about 30 minutes to Bradley / TFC. With the exception of Kyle they are myopic in their views of Bradley. But there were a few good nuggets around the edges.

- supposedly after 2017 we have lost a ton of executive talent and haven’t replaced it. Sort of advanced the narrative Leiweke built it and Manning is just not keeping pace (unsurprisingly, they were very critical of Manning).
- the atmosphere around the club is such a shit show, they have multiple players off the record saying they would go anywhere just to get out.

I came away more concerned than when I started and think this club is going nowhere until Bill is turfed and under no circumstances should he be making any more hires. I mean honestly, who takes a month to fire Bradley after that Athletic article is released? That’s an embarrassment if there ever was one.
Yep it was hard to read that athletic article and not conclude that Bill Manning is the biggest problem at the club.

[Mr. Inbetween]

I'm told they're casting a wide net, but starting domestically. I assume that means Canadian, or in Canada; might also mean the U.S. Maybe they're thinking of poaching someone particular?

My ideal international 'semi-realistic' candidate would be (a) Claudio Ranieri (type). Domestically? Maybe John Herdman? Probably... Bobby Smyrniotis? Though, IIUC, he did just signed a 4-YR contact-extension with Forge FC. Yet, given the opportunity to coach at the MLS level, he may be able to work something out; worse case, Jim Lawson and Nick Eaves might be able to facilitate a solution. I mean, besides Bob Bradley, TFC's Jason Hernandez and/or Bill Manning, may have been dealing with Agent AXIA- Nick Mavaromaras for Richie Laryea (staying or going?) So perhaps there would be opportunity for a continued dialogue just on the Bobby Smyrniotis matter.

[OgtheDim]

So I tortured myself by listening to Extra Time today. They devoted about 30 minutes to Bradley / TFC. With the exception of Kyle they are myopic in their views of Bradley. But there were a few good nuggets around the edges.

- supposedly after 2017 we have lost a ton of executive talent and haven’t replaced it.

Didn't listen ..not sure I want to torture myself with that, to be honest.

But that sounds like lazy "Bez left and was never replaced" thinking extrapolated to be more...something MLS pundits do a lot - take one thing & then make it into a trend.

And the bit about people wanting to leave sounds like the athletic article read as fact where we know for certain Insigne, for one, isn't wanting to leave.

[ensco]

^I just listened to it. I thought it was pretty bang on accurate.

Manning coasted on what Leiweke built until 2019, and has bungled everything since. Bang on.

The league has changed a lot, and Manning thinking he could copy the Leiweke/Gio signing, and thats it, is dumb. Bang on.

It is a full on 2013 type restart. Bang on.

Bob has flaws but it was a terrible situation. Bang on.

Bob’s signings (Diomande, Petretta, Rosted) are all on horrible deals and we cannot easily fix it. Gulp. Bang on

They are trying to figure out what is next by looking at unemployed managers on transfermarkt and sorting by Italians. Bang on.

[ag futbol]

But that sounds like lazy "Bez left and was never replaced" thinking extrapolated to be more...something MLS pundits do a lot - take one thing & then make it into a trend.

That’s what I thought too when I heard the tagline but it went way beyond that. They did talk about Bez and Jack Dodd obviously. Then mentioned Fraser and the people Bez took with him. And then they mentioned guys who I never heard of that ended up in some of the other clubs around the league. Made it sound like people knew we were onto something after 2017 and we got absolutely raided, never fought back or recovered.

It really put a lot of our current failures into context. Not only are the people we know not capable (Manning, Bradley) but the people we don’t know who work with those people are also underwhelming / inexperienced.

Between that and our cultural issues, it’s going to be a while before this club sees success again. There’s no coach Manning can hire that sees us out of this. The smart candidates will stay away, we’ll end up with someone inexperienced without credibility or past their best days like Bob or Paul Mariner.

It really needs to be a too-down rebuild to get us out of the woods here.

[leedsandTFC]

^I just listened to it. I thought it was pretty bang on accurate.

Manning coasted on what Leiweke built until 2019, and has bungled everything since. Bang on.

The league has changed a lot, and Manning thinking he could copy the Leiweke/Gio signing, and thats it, is dumb. Bang on.

It is a full on 2013 type restart. Bang on.

Bob has flaws but it was a terrible situation. Bang on.

Bob’s signings (Diomande, Petretta, Rosted) are all on horrible deals and we cannot easily fix it. Gulp. Bang on

They are trying to figure out what is next by looking at unemployed managers on transfermarkt and sorting by Italians. Bang on.

Sounds about right.

Manning really beeds to go, or at very least bring in a bunch of people around him to do most the work.

[Mr. Inbetween]

My ideal international 'semi-realistic' candidate would be (a) Claudio Ranieri (type). Domestically? Maybe John Herdman? Probably... Bobby Smyrniotis? Though, IIUC, he did just signed a 4-YR contact-extension with Forge FC. Yet, given the opportunity to coach at the MLS level, he may be able to work something out; worse case, Jim Lawson and Nick Eaves might be able to facilitate a solution. I mean, besides Bob Bradley, TFC's Jason Hernandez and/or Bill Manning, may have been dealing with Agent AXIA- Nick Mavaromaras for Richie Laryea (staying or going?) So perhaps there would be opportunity for a continued dialogue just on the Bobby Smyrniotis matter.

Addendum...

Believe Pirlo with Sampdoria. Nesta linked with Reggiana?

https://twitter.com/pbernier10/status/1673688486304415745

[ag futbol]

WTF is this supposed to solve? I’m tired of this club with a huge payroll being used as training wheels for Americans with no experience

https://twitter.com/TorontoFC/status/1673711630977302528

[Mr. Inbetween]

Sort of expected? IIRC, been mentioned in the past that he was (acting) Assistant GM?

[MikeForbes]

WTF is this supposed to solve? I’m tired of this club with a huge payroll being used as training wheels for Americans with no experience

https://twitter.com/TorontoFC/status/1673711630977302528

Doing actual searches for candidates is hard work and we don't have anymore players on the team with dad's involved in MLS.

[Yuushalinsky]

WTF is this supposed to solve? I’m tired of this club with a huge payroll being used as training wheels for Americans with no experience

https://twitter.com/TorontoFC/status/1673711630977302528

Jason Hernandez has been with us for a few years now in the system, hasn't he?

Not saying this is a great hire, but this is 100% not just a nepotism promotion and I feel better about this than Ali Curtis or Bob.

Again, definitely wary of a bad hire, but this is almost certainly short term and he's at least been close to the job for a while.

[ag futbol]

Jason Hernandez has been with us for a few years now in the system, hasn't he?

Don’t care. Hasn’t been a GM in the past. We are test piloting someone yet again.

We should be taking the stance that we’re a big club and if you want to manage here, prove yourself elsewhere first or be a part of a group that has achieved success.

Who has Jason Hernandes learned his trade from? Bradley, Curtis, Armas, Manning? When we achieved precisely nothing? I don’t care how great he supposedly is, this is a terrible hire

[ManUtd4ever]

I hear Ted Lasso's looking for work

I miss that show.

[Ultra & Proud]

Don’t care. Hasn’t been a GM in the past. We are test piloting someone yet again.

We should be taking the stance that we’re a big club and if you want to manage here, prove yourself elsewhere first or be a part of a group that has achieved success.

Who has Jason Hernandes learned his trade from? Bradley, Curtis, Armas, Manning? When we achieved precisely nothing? I don’t care how great he supposedly is, this is a terrible hire
I have no problem with this appointment. He was already moving in this direction before he came here from NYCFC and everybody has to start somewhere. One thing you do not do in MLS is hire some Euro or SA guy to be GM with no MLS experience. The league is too ridiculous to hire a regular football guy from elsewhere to run a team. How many actually ever worked?

Hernandez has MLS experience and there's really no one better currently available unless you think experienced GMs like Bocanegra & Klein are good bets.

[Areathrasher]

Didn't listen ..not sure I want to torture myself with that, to be honest.

But that sounds like lazy "Bez left and was never replaced" thinking extrapolated to be more...something MLS pundits do a lot - take one thing & then make it into a trend.

And the bit about people wanting to leave sounds like the athletic article read as fact where we know for certain Insigne, for one, isn't wanting to leave.
Bez did take quite a few front office folk with him to CBus tbf

[ag futbol]

I have no problem with this appointment. He was already moving in this direction before he came here from NYCFC and everybody has to start somewhere. One thing you do not do in MLS is hire some Euro or SA guy to be GM with no MLS experience. The league is too ridiculous to hire a regular football guy from elsewhere to run a team. How many actually ever worked?

Hernandez has MLS experience and there's really no one better currently available unless you think experienced GMs like Bocanegra & Klein are good bets.
We need to play bully and take someone else’s guy. That’s really the only acceptable way this works.

[jloome]

Don’t care. Hasn’t been a GM in the past. We are test piloting someone yet again.

We should be taking the stance that we’re a big club and if you want to manage here, prove yourself elsewhere first or be a part of a group that has achieved success.

Who has Jason Hernandes learned his trade from? Bradley, Curtis, Armas, Manning? When we achieved precisely nothing? I don’t care how great he supposedly is, this is a terrible hire

He's very highly thought of internally, at least in part because he was a voice of reason against a lot of the last two or three years.

In other words, by being sane enough to realize the problems in scouting and management, and by raising them, he gets defacto labelled as perceptive. I don't know if it's an accurate label or he was just politically astute enough to see what was coming.

TFC has become highly political internally, one of the consequences of Manning being largely focused on the numbers and the business side. He devolved responsibility to people and didn't stay on top of them. My sense is he got to his position by being largely the nice guy in the room; but a dude like that can be very easy to manipulate, especially when he'd prefer to pay attention to the business end, not the sporting end.

Really, they should've probably split his role up a long time ago and had several others there to help, as it clearly got away from him. Hiring a friend in Curtis was a massive, massive mistake, because Ali basically got him to agree to take a hands-off approach to football operations, which Bob also demanded.

Hernandez is the one dude who was pretty straightforward with him, as far as I can tell, about those internal problems. So he's giving him a shot to handle the main job.

Given that Manning probably knows a third bad coaching hire in a row is his end, he's hedging his bets by going with the person who was bluntly honest rather than who told him what he wanted to hear.

When Jack Dodd left, I understand Hernandez was asked his assessment of our use of the scouting department and how it was being utilized and he was pretty scathing.

So this might yet work out to be astute. It still strikes me as risky over getting in a more experienced front office guy.

[rydermike]

So for those who watched the press conference....anything interesting?

[jloome]

Bez did take quite a few front office folk with him to CBus tbf

The others didn't flee, either. They were here for years after the current regime took over. They were lured with better jobs and more money, basically. Dodd is an assistant GM now, Corey Wray has worked himself all the way up to assistant GM under Bez.

He was an intern, some of you may remember, who was nuts about footie stats.

So ... yeah, we've been heavily poached.

Manning's big mistake has been trusting people who took over those roles to handle both more responsibility and authority, and not really handling the sporting side of things himself. Plausible deniability is all well and good as a defensive strategy, but only when there are still others to blame.

And let's be frank, he's not the best judge of character. He accepted Dodd's chapter and verse for years before the lack of success in building a squad made him start questioning it... and his reward for that was Dodd almost certainly being the guy in the Athletic article saying Manning never listened to him.

But... that's the polar opposite of what I'm hearing happened, which is that he STOPPED trust his judgment, not that he never started. He thought Doyle had stopped casting any sort of wide net for talent and was only taking MLS recommendations and only looking at players he already knew well.

So some of the internal strife we're hearing is highly debatable office politics. Some of the people who left, we're probably better off for it. Their work spoke for itself, because outside of Bez's signings, nothing they suggested produced a winning roster.

Ultimately, I think Manning will lose the role. He's, to me, relying way too much on reading the person and going on character, rather than on rote track record and recommendations from respected outside sources. He's too susceptible to trusting peoples' confidence in themselves and their ideas. That's where all this starts, the buddy-buddy system.

To an extent, Hernandez is an extension of that. The upside is that he seems to be one who saw the problems internally and was at least attempting to raise them.

[ag futbol]

The others didn't flee, either. They were here for years after the current regime took over. They were lured with better jobs and more money, basically. Dodd is an assistant GM now, Corey Wray has worked himself all the way up to assistant GM under Bez.

He was an intern, some of you may remember, who was nuts about footie stats.

So ... yeah, we've been heavily poached.

Manning's big mistake has been trusting people who took over those roles to handle both more responsibility and authority, and not really handling the sporting side of things himself. Plausible deniability is all well and good as a defensive strategy, but only when there are still others to blame.

And let's be frank, he's not the best judge of character. He accepted Dodd's chapter and verse for years before the lack of success in building a squad made him start questioning it... and his reward for that was Dodd almost certainly being the guy in the Athletic article saying Manning never listened to him.

But... that's the polar opposite of what I'm hearing happened, which is that he STOPPED trust his judgment, not that he never started. He thought Doyle had stopped casting any sort of wide net for talent and was only taking MLS recommendations and only looking at players he already knew well.

So some of the internal strife we're hearing is highly debatable office politics. Some of the people who left, we're probably better off for it. Their work spoke for itself, because outside of Bez's signings, nothing they suggested produced a winning roster.

Ultimately, I think Manning will lose the role. He's, to me, relying way too much on reading the person and going on character, rather than on rote track record and recommendations from respected outside sources. He's too susceptible to trusting peoples' confidence in themselves and their ideas. That's where all this starts, the buddy-buddy system.

To an extent, Hernandez is an extension of that. The upside is that he seems to be one who saw the problems internally and was at least attempting to raise them.
Here is my 10,000 ft take: We hired a lazy salesman who has never been a real leader that has survived for the past 10+ years by essentially serving the leftovers in the fridge made by his processor. By the time he has to do his own cooking and everyone realizes it tastes like shit, he carpet bags it to the next town.

At this stage, after some negative Yelp reviews, word is out he’s a bad chef and has limited exit options. As such, the TFC fanbase is stuck with a bad case of Montezuma’s Revenge until our ownership group descend from their ivory towers long enough to clean house and we start again with giving someone too much power and latitude.

[los sonadores]

That’s what I thought too when I heard the tagline but it went way beyond that. They did talk about Bez and Jack Dodd obviously. Then mentioned Fraser and the people Bez took with him. And then they mentioned guys who I never heard of that ended up in some of the other clubs around the league. Made it sound like people knew we were onto something after 2017 and we got absolutely raided, never fought back or recovered.

It really put a lot of our current failures into context. Not only are the people we know not capable (Manning, Bradley) but the people we don’t know who work with those people are also underwhelming / inexperienced.

Between that and our cultural issues, it’s going to be a while before this club sees success again. There’s no coach Manning can hire that sees us out of this. The smart candidates will stay away, we’ll end up with someone inexperienced without credibility or past their best days like Bob or Paul Mariner.

It really needs to be a too-down rebuild to get us out of the woods here.


This is something not often spoken about on this board. Maybe because it’s about the interior workings which are normally out of sight to us. Even with the key people that Bez took with him alone there seemed to be no adequate replacements.

[JoesphNdo]

He's very highly thought of internally, at least in part because he was a voice of reason against a lot of the last two or three years.

In other words, by being sane enough to realize the problems in scouting and management, and by raising them, he gets defacto labelled as perceptive. I don't know if it's an accurate label or he was just politically astute enough to see what was coming.

TFC has become highly political internally, one of the consequences of Manning being largely focused on the numbers and the business side. He devolved responsibility to people and didn't stay on top of them. My sense is he got to his position by being largely the nice guy in the room; but a dude like that can be very easy to manipulate, especially when he'd prefer to pay attention to the business end, not the sporting end.

Really, they should've probably split his role up a long time ago and had several others there to help, as it clearly got away from him. Hiring a friend in Curtis was a massive, massive mistake, because Ali basically got him to agree to take a hands-off approach to football operations, which Bob also demanded.

Hernandez is the one dude who was pretty straightforward with him, as far as I can tell, about those internal problems. So he's giving him a shot to handle the main job.

Given that Manning probably knows a third bad coaching hire in a row is his end, he's hedging his bets by going with the person who was bluntly honest rather than who told him what he wanted to hear.

When Jack Dodd left, I understand Hernandez was asked his assessment of our use of the scouting department and how it was being utilized and he was pretty scathing.

So this might yet work out to be astute. It still strikes me as risky over getting in a more experienced front office guy.

This is a more positive take at least. My first instincts were "cheap" "low effort" and "likely will stay out of the way and not rock the boat". Hopefully it's less that and more than he has turned heads behind closed doors for the right reasons. The initial optics aren't great, though.

[OgtheDim]

Hernandez said the word analytics.

This is a shot at BB - good.

[ensco]

Goddammit. This makes me tear my hair out. WTF is “GM” vs “Sporting Director”?

Hernandez has to be interim! If he is not interim, and there is no Sporting Director coming, this is crazy to let Manning do this. This isn’t Leiweke promoting Bez because … wait for it … MANNING ISNT LEIWEKE

The new Sporting Director either is this person or makes this hire.

argh!!!!!!!!!!

[JoesphNdo]

^I just listened to it. I thought it was pretty bang on accurate.

Manning coasted on what Leiweke built until 2019, and has bungled everything since. Bang on.

The league has changed a lot, and Manning thinking he could copy the Leiweke/Gio signing, and thats it, is dumb. Bang on.

It is a full on 2013 type restart. Bang on.

Bob has flaws but it was a terrible situation. Bang on.

Bob’s signings (Diomande, Petretta, Rosted) are all on horrible deals and we cannot easily fix it. Gulp. Bang on

They are trying to figure out what is next by looking at unemployed managers on transfermarkt and sorting by Italians. Bang on.

Also just listened to this and agree, it was pretty much spot on. Only part I didn't agree with is they seemed to talk about roster construction as only partially Bobs fault when, outside of the DPs, it's entirely his fault. They also touched on how him taking over a team captained by his son at the age he was at was asking for issues, as many of us thought. I think all parties were blind to that part of it.

The rest is spot on and interesting to hear the claims that someone in the locker room as recently as last week said he wanted out to anywhere, doesn't care where, just can't be here anymore. That was new information.

[Mr. Inbetween]

Permission? Therefore domestic and under (still) contract? Therefore MLS? Perhaps other North American leagues? So... maybe Fraser, Vanney, Curtain, Herdman, Smyrniotis and hopefully Nancy?

https://twitter.com/MichaelSingh94/status/1673716578750193665

[los sonadores]

Hernandez said the word analytics.

This is a shot at BB - good.

Maybe good but are more shots what we need and is analytics going to save us? I might prefer a clear eyed, not stat based analysis of not only what has been happening on the pitch but the entire management structure and personelle. There are tons of stats out there on us and they don’t look good… indeed, most stuff can be clearly seen to be amiss without recourse to stats. In principal, yes, we must use every avenue but I’m not sure that analytics is going to help us out of this mess.

Btw, I would like Richie to get out of this club. I’d like to see him succeed in Europe. And also, true, he’s been brilliant for us but should we be spending 1.2 million on a left back, (fill in) centre back? Now, if he is properly played at wing back and Bernie is moved out of his way and into the middle, I think we’ll get more production out of him. Is it worth 1.2 million in the context of MLS budgets and in particular our strained budget? Not sure.

As a close observer of the Nats and someone who saw him play under Vanney, Dunfield should know how to use Richie. Bob clearly didn’t, except in moments.

[JoesphNdo]

1.2 m plus transfer fee. I really don't know what to make out of a potential transfer, I want him to stay but is he the DP we need right now?

[Red CB Toronto]

Goddammit. This makes me tear my hair out. WTF is “GM” vs “Sporting Director”?

Hernandez has to be interim! If he is not interim, and there is no Sporting Director coming, this is crazy to let Manning do this. This isn’t Leiweke promoting Bez because … wait for it … MANNING ISNT LEIWEKE

The new Sporting Director either is this person or makes this hire.

argh!!!!!!!!!!

Who is Bill actually responsible to that actually knows a thing or two about TFC and thus would question, hold him accountable? Larry T. is likely the only one, does Edward Rogers think about this at all? I think the team presidents report directly to the board, even more with MLSE not having a president and CEO at the moment. To even compare the role of Bill to Tim L is crazy, one is a team president ie division head and the other ran the whole organization.

[los sonadores]

1.2 m plus transfer fee. I really don't know what to make out of a potential transfer, I want him to stay but is he the DP we need right now?

I wasn’t even thinking about what transfer fee would be required. Let’s hope the league exempts transfer fees from the basic budget cap or sorts that problem out one way or another. But I suppose a loan extension is what is required to keep him for the rest of this season.

Seems pretty clear we are desperate for a striker of the quality or near quality of the Italians. Certainly someone that they can work with. We have none of those now.

[ensco]

It wouldn’t surprise me if Richie is the guy who told Extratime last week “Get me out of here, anywhere but here”. I know nothing, but that is my guess.

[FiveThreeTwo]

All this feels hasty, and I don’t like the feel of it. Has the feeling of a Prez now using a snorkel to breath while he tries to stay above water and is flailing out at solutions.

I hope he realizes people wanted change, and the acts of redeeming himself included not being hasty and going into immediate firefight mode to panic fill gaps and have solutions ready in a couple weeks. We all want sustained success-not quick short term wins. That takes time.

Pump the breaks, breath and touch grass Bill. throw interim tags on everyone. Loop in consultants and technical brain power to help bring sporting/technical people where you can give them a general strategy or executive intent - then give them the season to analyze, scour the world, build a full plan/strategy and let em cook. Promoting Hernandez to clean it all up after sacking yesterday optically isn’t it.

Finalize a coach when the time is right with the above resources, and let dunny build positive morale with the squad for this season and make a crack at a playoff push for morale wins, and get back to basics. FK that we’d be burning a year of Insigne and berna. Having a shortlist of coaches and mandating permanent coaching hire 3-4 games from now when he’s barley had time to consult internal/external brains with our club is a mess is just hasty and dumb, unless those ppl are special. If manning had the balls, he’d have a community/SSH town hall to have a chat and get the pulse of the remaining fans that actually have a passion for seeing success. Sorry for the longer reflections - getting saltier as this develops lol.

[jloome]

Goddammit. This makes me tear my hair out. WTF is “GM” vs “Sporting Director”?

Hernandez has to be interim! If he is not interim, and there is no Sporting Director coming, this is crazy to let Manning do this. This isn’t Leiweke promoting Bez because … wait for it … MANNING ISNT LEIWEKE

The new Sporting Director either is this person or makes this hire.

argh!!!!!!!!!!

I suspect he has no real experience from RSL of having to handle so many hires and department heads. Before that, at Philly, he was a promotions and advertising guy.

And when someone doesn't have experience with that stuff, they handle it badly.

When Bob was hired, he became the GM. That's what "sporting director" meant, they just gave it a new title, probably to try and avoid internal criticism. Part of that deal -- which also should have been a non-starter -- was that the front office would be hands off and let him run his own show.

It's why they didn't replace Ali, and why Jack Dodd wasn't promoted... which led to internal divisions from people who'd waited to move up, then didn't. Just changing the name of the title wasn't enough; he'd effectively handed the whole thing over to Bob.

He made Jason assistant, split with Dodd, who left to take the job at Portland that he expected to get in Toronto, and now is bumping the guy he has faith in.

It seems too extreme a risk. He calls it "continuity" but its just trying to self-protect via loyalty, I suspect. Hernandez might do well but he's got very little experience, and we need to rebuild, again.

The only upside I take from that appointment is that one of the first things I heard from the front office -- fully a month before Manning seemed to accept it himself -- was that Hernandez was already making noise about the first team's performance, about the harmony, about the lack of scouting for outside talent.

The list of tasks he rattled off in that conference that have been solely his remit for most of the last two years was absolutely ridiculous. That's a job four guys should be doing, let alone having one person as the president of two clubs.

I don't think he has a realistic view of how much help he needs at the top. He runs on trust, and faith, and positive expectations, not fact and investigation.

They're all likable in someone you hang out with; they don't encapsulate the range of skill and behaviors needed to run a club this big.

[jloome]

It wouldn’t surprise me if Richie is the guy who told Extratime last week “Get me out of here, anywhere but here”. I know nothing, but that is my guess.

That would jibe with the word that was going around that he had no interest in returning. That was offered to me as "he has a lot of people whispering in his ear about Europe," but it's easier to see him just saying 'nah, too toxic.'

Our dressing room is toxic right now. Central to all of this -- all of it -- has been the Michael/Bob dynamic and the fact that neither of them seems to have any real people skills whatsoever. Wiebe made the point on XtraTime that Michael consulted a lot with Vanney, aswell -- but what he didn't consider was that players generally don't like Michael. They may like his play -- or did at his peak, and sometimes now -- and they may like the warrior spirit. But he's so direct and blunt, like his old man, that I just can't see him being liked much.

Listening to Conrad and Pierce's U.S. podcast yesterday -- they both famously couldn't stand the Bradleys when working with them and Conrad feuded with Michael and Jeff online -- they were both coloring between the lines a little, being nice about his accomplishments but making it clear they're very hard to work with.

He said Bob "demands absolute buy in and absolute dedication." And when he can maintain that, his club wins. But it can't last, because it burns people out. Pierce suggested that had occurred in LA, and on the national team. Both seemed of the opinion this roster just wasn't built for "buying into" a singular tactical approach for total football, basically.

Clearly, one of the issues with Manning is that he's too affable, too naïve about people's sunnier qualities. As I've mentioned to you several times, I think he's a likable PERSON. But that doesn't often make a great executive, not unless it's paired with a ton of hands-on involvement.

Even now, it sounds like he wants Jason to take over football so he can go back to business. Hernandez is going to manage all trades, all scouts, salary cap management, personnel under him.... I mean, fuck, that's basically everything except making money.

But I don't think he's interested in that side of it. He thinks he's good at generating revenue. Long-term, it seems suicidal.

[jloome]

Here is my 10,000 ft take: We hired a lazy salesman who has never been a real leader that has survived for the past 10+ years by essentially serving the leftovers in the fridge made by his processor.

My sense isn't that he's lazy, it's that he's extremely naive. His view is "good bosses let their staff do what they do best," and he thinkls what he does best is make money, not run the sporting side. So he has avoided it and will continue to do so.

It's career suicide at the level he's at. If not for who came before, it would have caught up to him earlier. LEt's face it, we all say we want a boss who will just let us do our jobs without interference, but any of us who have tried to do that have quickly had to learn -- usually -- that that's just now how the world works. Offices are tribal, are petty, are governed by emotion and blinkered thinking as much or more than other parts of society.

His view is idealized and naïve, but it's not lazy. If it works out, it's through the sheer luck of getting someone of better-than-average character whom he hands control.

[JoesphNdo]

There's an element of laziness too, though, in the decisions that have been made since we lost bez. Reupping jozy twice is a good example of this, it was wrong, but it made fans happy in the short term and it was easier than trying to replace him even though that was the right call. Similar with Hernandez now to an extent, but also thinking you can recreate seba by just buying whatever Italian is available and even bringing Vasquez back (that may have been bob). He doesn't show signs to me that he thinks beyond "fans will be happy in the short term with this 2017 nostalgia" and doesn't want to put actual work in figuring this stuff out. That's where the lazy tag comes from for me. It may be off, but lazy is the word is use for so many of his key decisions. Lazy, easy and short term thinking. Fan service loses all value once the team is losing but creating a winning team is hard

[OgtheDim]

I mentioned analytics as good because BB seemed to not think they were useful while ignoring tape as a teaching tool.
It was all "having conversations". Now imagine coming from working with the Azzuri set up & not having tape sessions. Hell, Vanney lives by tape so the vets were probably tuned out too.

[Gringo Starr]

1.2 m plus transfer fee. I really don't know what to make out of a potential transfer, I want him to stay but is he the DP we need right now?

We don’t have a DP spot. It was stated at the presser that Oso is the third DP-there is no way to fit his salary in if he is not the 3rd DP

[ag futbol]

We don’t have a DP spot. It was stated at the presser that Oso is the third DP-there is no way to fit his salary in if he is not the 3rd DP
Based on our current cap situation, correct. But it does not always have to be that way if I understand the situation correctly. If we were to offload other TAM players we could clear the necessary room.

My thought is the obvious move here is to trade Osorio to clear room for a striker. Harsh business but it’s potentially the best option at the moment.

[Mr. Inbetween]

It wouldn’t surprise me if Richie is the guy who told Extratime last week “Get me out of here, anywhere but here”. I know nothing, but that is my guess.

Maybe. But if that is the case, wouldn't it also be, presumably and already, Richie Laryea's more diplomatically communicated agent/private position to the club? Wouldn't TFC understand by now he is already gone? In this sense, IMO, the crafty PR move in the presser would have been to then rip that band-aid off and somehow connect that topic and failure to or with Bob Bradley's departure.

[JoesphNdo]

We don’t have a DP spot. It was stated at the presser that Oso is the third DP-there is no way to fit his salary in if he is not the 3rd DP

Yeah I saw that after. I really don't see a path to keeping him unless forest are incredibly generous with us

[Gringo Starr]

Based on our current cap situation, correct. But it does not always have to be that way if I understand the situation correctly. If we were to offload other TAM players we could clear the necessary room.

My thought is the obvious move here is to trade Osorio to clear room for a striker. Harsh business but it’s potentially the best option at the moment.

Our TAM players are all overpaid though, I can’t see anyone taking one off our hands. The same with Oso who would take that contract with his recent injury problems?

[jloome]

We don’t have a DP spot. It was stated at the presser that Oso is the third DP-there is no way to fit his salary in if he is not the 3rd DP

But we could still sign two u22 dps.

That's effectively the same if they're good enough. If we could pry Campana out of Miami, for example....

[Gringo Starr]

But we could still sign two u22 dps.

That's effectively the same if they're good enough. If we could pry Campana out of Miami, for example....

The DP comment was made in relation to using it to keep Richie but yeah the u22 seems like the only way to get a decent striker now but it sounds like we have an international roster slot issue as well.

[jloome]

If they're looking domestic and an emerging talent, or someone who hasn't had a crack at this level yet, I'd expect some of the following names to be on the list. But maybe I'm aiming lower than they mean:


Alen Marcina at San Antonio -- three titles in Nasl and USL, multiple playoff final and division titles. Consistent winners for 11 years at level 2. Probably a smart pick.


Danny Cruz -- Louisville, mixes old and young on his squad, which jibes. Former MLS winger. Massive success in his first two years at Louisville City since taking over in 2021. Took over an already decent team, made it better. 54-17-21 since taking over in 2021.

Bobby Smyrniotis - Founded Sigma, inarguably Canada's most successful youth development program for pros, career 56% winning record, titles in three of four years at Forge.


Terry Dunfield - Because they're giving him the shot and have worked with him in the youth programs for years.


Carlos González Juárez - Ottawa, CPL coach of the year last year, spent 7 years in the malaga and Atl Madrid youth systems. Coached in Kuwait for a spell before going to Ottawa.

[MikeForbes]

If they're looking domestic and an emerging talent, or someone who hasn't had a crack at this level yet, I'd expect some of the following names to be on the list. But maybe I'm aiming lower than they mean:


Alen Marcina at San Antonio -- three titles in Nasl and USL, multiple playoff final and division titles. Consistent winners for 11 years at level 2. Probably a smart pick.


Danny Cruz -- Louisville, mixes old and young on his squad, which jibes. Former MLS winger. Massive success in his first two years at Louisville City 29-7-9 since taking over in 2021. Took over an already decent team, made it better.


Bobby Smyrniotis - Founded Sigma, inarguably Canada's most successful youth development program for pros, career 56% winning record, titles in three of four years at Forge.


Terry Dunfield - Because they're giving him the shot and have worked with him in the youth programs for years.


Carlos González Juárez - Ottawa, CPL coach of the year last year, spent 7 years in the malaga and Atl Madrid youth systems. Coached in Kuwait for a spell before going to Ottawa.

Danny Cruz or Marcina would be my pick of those guys you listed. I'd also be scouting some MLS Next Pro coaches who have had success in that leagues short history.

[OgtheDim]

If you want guys who's player analysis is NOT based on who knows whom....I'm not sure Smyrniotis avoids that.

[jloome]

Danny Cruz or Marcina would be my pick of those guys you listed. I'd also be scouting some MLS Next Pro coaches who have had success in that leagues short history.

They clearly had some working relationship with Pa Modou Kah, who recommended McNaughton. He's very highly thought of.

[jloome]

If you want guys who's player analysis is NOT based on who knows whom....I'm not sure Smyrniotis avoids that.

Equally, though, they're going to look at how much more success his academy has had than their own. He's an interesting one. I don't think they'd go that route, and given the money he's made off Sigma and where they want the CPL to go, he may not be interested.

[James17930]

I think they should at least give Jimmy Brennan an interview. I don't know if you would be the right fit, but I think he deserves a shot.

[dutch]

I said it when they hired armas and I'll say it again. Steven Caldwell is the person who best deserves a chance at coaching TFC. He was assistant coach of the Canadian mens team until he became the current president of league 1 ontario, he knows mls inside out, he bleeds TFC, a no nonsense hard nosed defender and if I had to give it to someone it would be him. they hire and fire so much lately why wouldnt you give him the rest of the season as a try out. way better resume than terry dunfield

[OgtheDim]

Caldwell worked with the CMNT for Nations League back in 2019 & then got kicked off the staff because he couldn't work with the players - that's a non-starter.

[OgtheDim]

Thinking about those pressers yesterday, some random thoughts



BB fired very early Monday morning or late Sunday night - probably in meetings with Hernandez & legal/HR all day Sunday to do this
I get the feeling the decision to fire was made after the Cinci game but was never going to be done until after the NER game - this is just my spec
Dunfield brought in early Monday morning & shown things - that sounds like Hernandez had sold a plan to BM by then
Hernandez was board approved yesterday morning- he had a 3 piece suit on and hadn't spoken to his wife yet - maybe not possible Monday
Dunfield met with Insigne Monday night - before meeting with the players or after
Bernadeschi just wants somebody to try ideas
BM is not on a short leash but the board may have noticed something
I get the feeling revenue this year is not what they expected - shirt sales, ticket sales, attendance, beer
BM may have got the board to understand that revenue is tied to on field success - this may not be to his benefit
they FINALLY recognise there is a problem with the ability of the squad to stay healthy - somebody is going to be hired to look at that
almost sounded like a medical person got fired too
Hernandez & Dunfield both started the process of indicating this may not turn around enough this season to make the playoffs
well they got a list of who they want to hire at least
Dunfield was surprisingly calm - he took his time to think over a few things
not sure he's the long term solution but as an interim, I'm OK with a guy who provides tactical clarity, uses film to show what needs to be done & uses analytics
Hernandez spiel about people not being as good or bad as the eye test provides and relying on analytics to make personnel decision is a direct shot at BB & in some ways a direct shot at the MLS coaching establishment
I doubt we get Porter or another MLS 3.0 coach
I am not sure we get a healthy proper CF until next season

[Hala Hrvatska]

Thinking about those pressers yesterday, some random thoughts



BB fired very early Monday morning or late Sunday night - probably in meetings with Hernandez & legal/HR all day Sunday to do this
I get the feeling the decision to fire was made after the Cinci game but was never going to be done until after the NER game - this is just my spec
Dunfield brought in early Monday morning & shown things - that sounds like Hernandez had sold a plan to BM by then
Hernandez was board approved yesterday morning- he had a 3 piece suit on and hadn't spoken to his wife yet - maybe not possible Monday
Dunfield met with Insigne Monday night - before meeting with the players or after
Bernadeschi just wants somebody to try ideas
BM is not on a short leash but the board may have noticed something
I get the feeling revenue this year is not what they expected - shirt sales, ticket sales, attendance, beer
BM may have got the board to understand that revenue is tied to on field success - this may not be to his benefit
they FINALLY recognise there is a problem with the ability of the squad to stay healthy - somebody is going to be hired to look at that
almost sounded like a medical person got fired too
Hernandez & Dunfield both started the process of indicating this may not turn around enough this season to make the playoffs
well they got a list of who they want to hire at least
Dunfield was surprisingly calm - he took his time to think over a few things
not sure he's the long term solution but as an interim, I'm OK with a guy who provides tactical clarity, uses film to show what needs to be done & uses analytics
Hernandez spiel about people not being as good or bad as the eye test provides and relying on analytics to make personnel decision is a direct shot at BB & in some ways a direct shot at the MLS coaching establishment
I doubt we get Porter or another MLS 3.0 coach
I am not sure we get a healthy proper CF until next season




Well said.

I also think a midfielder is essential to make this all work. Have said it before, will say it again, the Ososorio, Kaye and (when fit) Bradley is one of if not the worst midfield trio in all of mls. Simply not good enough. Oh to have a Pozuelo working withe Italians.

With seasons locked in this year, the revenue is hasn't cratered, but definitely lots of in game revenues down as lots of empty seats. So perhaps MLSE looked at that..or BM knows they will inevitably. Right now its on the fumes of the Italians that got lots of tickets sold...but fan discontent with BB and him going will bring a bit of new life into the fan's support for now.

I beg for the love of all that is holy, no more Americans coaching. Please. South American or Euro, and that's that.

[ensco]

Thinking about those pressers yesterday, some random thoughts



BB fired very early Monday morning or late Sunday night - probably in meetings with Hernandez & legal/HR all day Sunday to do this
I get the feeling the decision to fire was made after the Cinci game but was never going to be done until after the NER game - this is just my spec
Dunfield brought in early Monday morning & shown things - that sounds like Hernandez had sold a plan to BM by then
Hernandez was board approved yesterday morning- he had a 3 piece suit on and hadn't spoken to his wife yet - maybe not possible Monday
Dunfield met with Insigne Monday night - before meeting with the players or after
Bernadeschi just wants somebody to try ideas
BM is not on a short leash but the board may have noticed something
I get the feeling revenue this year is not what they expected - shirt sales, ticket sales, attendance, beer
BM may have got the board to understand that revenue is tied to on field success - this may not be to his benefit
they FINALLY recognise there is a problem with the ability of the squad to stay healthy - somebody is going to be hired to look at that
almost sounded like a medical person got fired too
Hernandez & Dunfield both started the process of indicating this may not turn around enough this season to make the playoffs
well they got a list of who they want to hire at least
Dunfield was surprisingly calm - he took his time to think over a few things
not sure he's the long term solution but as an interim, I'm OK with a guy who provides tactical clarity, uses film to show what needs to be done & uses analytics
Hernandez spiel about people not being as good or bad as the eye test provides and relying on analytics to make personnel decision is a direct shot at BB & in some ways a direct shot at the MLS coaching establishment
I doubt we get Porter or another MLS 3.0 coach
I am not sure we get a healthy proper CF until next season



This is a profoundly depressing summary.

I don’t even know where to begin. Going to have to throttle back my interest level.

[Hala Hrvatska]

BM may have got the board to understand that revenue is tied to on field success - this may not be to his benefit



I think that's how he got the Italians and again the highest payroll in the league...promising we'd win...and here we are, again out of the playoffs.

Surely the board sees the connection that with highest payroll in the league, we should be contending....but then again, maybe not.

[leedsandTFC]

Well said.

I also think a midfielder is essential to make this all work. Have said it before, will say it again, the Ososorio, Kaye and (when fit) Bradley is one of if not the worst midfield trio in all of mls. Simply not good enough. Oh to have a Pozuelo working withe Italians.

With seasons locked in this year, the revenue is hasn't cratered, but definitely lots of in game revenues down as lots of empty seats. So perhaps MLSE looked at that..or BM knows they will inevitably. Right now its on the fumes of the Italians that got lots of tickets sold...but fan discontent with BB and him going will bring a bit of new life into the fan's support for now.

I beg for the love of all that is holy, no more Americans coaching. Please. South American or Euro, and that's that.

interesting you would know this based on the 30 mins they've played together this season.

the reality is bernardeschi has been horrific for the majority of the season. the amount of turnovers and runs into blind alleys he does every game is really terrible to watch, we need to sell him the first opportunity.

he comes off looking worse than anyone in that athletic article.

thoroughly unprofessional on and off the pitch. if that is allowed to fester no wonder we are where we are.

if we had a DP striker on the same wages he is on there's a good chance we have an extra 15-20 points this season. very poor roster construction, as well.

[ag futbol]

BM is not on a short leash but the board may have noticed something


I know we're both guessing here but that wasn't my take based on his body language off the top. His hands are almost visibly shaking, he's struggling to hit a rhythm of what he wants to say, and looks excessively nervous. Now that could be because he's about to face the press and be asked some tough questions but this isn't exactly the Real Madrid manager here facing down a blood thirsty La Marca.

My thought is he looks like a man whose bosses expressed a lot of displeasure and knows the broader league is not on his side having just struck down one of their idols.

[Hala Hrvatska]

interesting you would know this based on the 30 mins they've played together this season.

.

They are simply not good enough players...."30 minutes" or not.

Oso is not a DP level...never was. Cannot defend....okay going forward. Would not be a DP anywhere else, and not a starter on any top team...if he had two good midfielders to work with, he'd be good.

Kaye lets face it is a disaster, especially on what we pay him and gave up. Would not start anywhere else in the league...

MB, come on, horrific defensively and adds nothing going forward...safe rinky dink sideways passes I guess to stat pad....

Combine all three, and the sum of the parts is even worse.



As for Fede....had no quality midfield to work with and no target man. Give him a Pozuelo and a target man to take away the triple teams and he'd be great. He can't do this alone.


As for roster construction...its on BB (and BM)...they made this mess....now how we get out of it I don't know.

But I expect a "bump" now with BB gone...all the toxicity is gone...and we should get some wins....and better vibes all around.

[Hala Hrvatska]

I know we're both guessing here but that wasn't my take based on his body language off the top. His hands are almost visibly shaking, he's struggling to hit a rhythm of what he wants to say, and looks excessively nervous. Now that could be because he's about to face the press and be asked some tough questions but this isn't exactly the Real Madrid manager here facing down a blood thirsty La Marca.

My thought is he looks like a man whose bosses expressed a lot of displeasure and knows the broader league is not on his side having just struck down one of their idols.

Definitely. I couldn't help notice him holding his hands very nervously. A sign of nervousness....am sure body language experts would interpret it that way.

He knows he is on borrowed time. Or at least he better know.

[ag futbol]

interesting you would know this based on the 30 mins they've played together this season.

the reality is bernardeschi has been horrific for the majority of the season. the amount of turnovers and runs into blind alleys he does every game is really terrible to watch, we need to sell him the first opportunity.

he comes off looking worse than anyone in that athletic article.

thoroughly unprofessional on and off the pitch. if that is allowed to fester no wonder we are where we are.

if we had a DP striker on the same wages he is on there's a good chance we have an extra 15-20 points this season. very poor roster construction, as well.
I don't think we really need to see that midfield for an extended period to know it isn't going to work. It's three slow guys in an athletic league. Also, Kevin Kilbane's bit on TSN was RIP Bradley as an everyday MLS starter IMO, it was damming.

Bernardeschi to me looks like a race horse who was told by bob he's going to be plowing the field. He let his attitude get the best of him and stopped giving it 100% but he knew the instructions were stupid from the outset. But I agree with you in the sense now that Bob is out of the way, it's 100% on him to turn it up and show us he's worth what we're paying him.

[Smokecell]

interesting you would know this based on the 30 mins they've played together this season.

the reality is bernardeschi has been horrific for the majority of the season. the amount of turnovers and runs into blind alleys he does every game is really terrible to watch, we need to sell him the first opportunity.

he comes off looking worse than anyone in that athletic article.

thoroughly unprofessional on and off the pitch. if that is allowed to fester no wonder we are where we are.

if we had a DP striker on the same wages he is on there's a good chance we have an extra 15-20 points this season. very poor roster construction, as well.

The comment about the Oso/MAK/MB isn't really that far off base, if at all. On paper it sounds good, but there isn't enough pace between the 3 of them to make it work. I think this is why Servania was an early standout because he was able to provide some of that missing pace.

RE: Berna - yeah not a great look in that article, but the stubbornness of BB is really to blame for a lot of his struggles this season. He was very clearly not being maximized as a winger in BB's system yet he (exhaustingly) was forced into it week after week and his play visibly deteriorated - no doubt about it. IF and I stress IF he cannot bounce back after being better utilized under Dunfield or the next coach, then maybe you have to look at an exit strategy, but IMO it would be hard to dumb him on the heels of the disaster BB created.

[Ultra & Proud]

interesting you would know this based on the 30 mins they've played together this season.

the reality is bernardeschi has been horrific for the majority of the season. the amount of turnovers and runs into blind alleys he does every game is really terrible to watch, we need to sell him the first opportunity.

he comes off looking worse than anyone in that athletic article.

thoroughly unprofessional on and off the pitch. if that is allowed to fester no wonder we are where we are.

if we had a DP striker on the same wages he is on there's a good chance we have an extra 15-20 points this season. very poor roster construction, as well.
Agree with most of this but that isn't a good midfield three no matter what. I think MAK & Osorio could be useful in a midfield four if some thought was put into the other two mids and using players where their strengths (or mostly weaknesses) are covered.

And Berna is terrible and needs to go anywhere. Insigne maybe could redeem himself based on his slight turnaround, maybe.

A while back I wrote Shaffelburg > Insigne. Well Shaffelburg >>> Berna by a huge margin and I don't even care that it's the wrong wing. Currently Kerr is better than Berna so he is nearly a Aketxe level bust.

[leedsandTFC]

Agree with most of this but that isn't a good midfield three no matter what. I think MAK & Osorio could be useful in a midfield four if some thought was put into the other two mids and using players where their strengths (or mostly weaknesses) are covered.

And Berna is terrible and needs to go anywhere. Insigne maybe could redeem himself based on his slight turnaround, maybe.

A while back I wrote Shaffelburg > Insigne. Well Shaffelburg >>> Berna by a huge margin and I don't even care that it's the wrong wing. Currently Kerr is better than Berna so he is nearly a Aketxe level bust.

yep no coincidence that the one game berna sat for kerr was our best game.

he makes the team way way worse.

and yeah i don't think that that midfield would have worked long term. in fact next year i wouldn't be surprised if kaye is trade, bradley retired. but it's far from our biggest issue.

our defence concedes goals for fun whenever hedges is out, bernardeschi is on close to 7 mill a year, hasn't scored or assisted in 12 games, our strikers combined have 1 goal this season.

[Ultra & Proud]

Bernadeschi just wants somebody to try ideas



The first idea Bernadeschi should try is to not dribble in slow moton at three defenders 5 to 10 times per match in a battle to get to that one and only spot where he will shoot at goal, which is always covered since it's all he ever does.

[ag futbol]

bernardeschi is on close to 7 mill a year, hasn't scored or assisted in 12 games,
It is incredibly ridiculous when you think about it. There are DP’s dominating this league on less than half that money.

Too bad BM went for basic pandering rather than just outright quality and fit for MLS.

[leedsandTFC]

It is incredibly ridiculous when you think about it. There are DP’s dominating this league on less than half that money.

Too bad BM went for basic pandering rather than just outright quality and fit for MLS.

And to top it off, insigne has looked genuinely amazing in games without bernardeschi...

[Ultra & Proud]

And to top it off, insigne has looked genuinely amazing in games without bernardeschi...
Because he is where pace & possession go to die.

[Ultra & Proud]

Realistically though a decent manager could mitigate a lot of the issues in the squad with a few simple tweaks.

Moving Bernadeschi central at AM or even better, at CF would solve most of the problems he causes that ruin most of our attacks and maybe we could actually get a goal from a CF. The fact that Bob kept doing the same thing over and over for as long as he did was ridiculous. Seems Dunfield will not go down that same road so that's a plus.

The MAK problem. Okay he is supposed to be dynamic and whatever but his passing range is shit. Perhaps somewhat to blame on the Bob non-system but the proof is on the field. He does lead the lead the league in tackles though and is defensively fairly good. Wave goodbye to the memory of MB and just put MAK at DM. He could probably work there because nobody is taking him at his wage and he is too expensive to bench.

Waive one of the useless forwards, preferrable Diomande since he is a bust. We have no cap space and a glut of useless forwards. Got to trim the fat and that's the spot to do it.

[leedsandTFC]

Realistically though a decent manager could mitigate a lot of the issues in the squad with a few simple tweaks.

Moving Bernadeschi central at AM or even better, at CF would solve most of the problems he causes that ruin most of our attacks and maybe we could actually get a goal from a CF. The fact that Bob kept doing the same thing over and over for as long as he did was ridiculous. Seems Dunfield will not go down that same road so that's a plus.

The MAK problem. Okay he is supposed to be dynamic and whatever but his passing range is shit. Perhaps somewhat to blame on the Bob non-system but the proof is on the field. He does lead the lead the league in tackles though and is defensively fairly good. Wave goodbye to the memory of MB and just put MAK at DM. He could probably work there because nobody is taking him at his wage and he is too expensive to bench.

Waive one of the useless forwards, preferrable Diomande since he is a bust. We have no cap space and a glut of useless forwards. Got to trim the fat and that's the spot to do it.

I know bernardeschi scored a couple for us last year bur he's really not a goalscorer.

He's had a bunch of breakaways or half breakaways this season and always either waits to long and gets blocked or puts it wide.

[ag futbol]

And to top it off, insigne has looked genuinely amazing in games without bernardeschi...
Agree. Hard to tell if that was because of the vibe, style of play or just outright lack of pace. At least when Kerr was on he provided the latter. Fast guy one side, skill guy other side is pretty much MLS standard, not sure why BB couldn’t figure that out and move Bernie more centrally.

[leedsandTFC]

Agree. Hard to tell if that was because of the vibe, style of play or just outright lack of pace. At least when Kerr was on he provided the latter. Fast guy one side, skill guy other side is pretty much MLS standard, not sure why BB couldn’t figure that out and move Bernie more centrally.


The ideal situation would be to sell bernardeschi and bring in a forward who can run the channels and finish with the $$.

Midfield and forward line of coello, oso, servania, kerr, insigne, DP striker.

Then in offseason go out and get a 3rd DP as a CM.

Waive diomande, Bradley retires, sell rosted, petretta, trade Kaye.

[Ultra & Proud]

I know bernardeschi scored a couple for us last year bur he's really not a goalscorer.

He's had a bunch of breakaways or half breakaways this season and always either waits to long and gets blocked or puts it wide.
No but he is more of a goal threat than Sappong, Akinola, Diomande, or Peruzza. Added benefit is that is he is forced to stick to a central sort of spacially minimized area to work in then he shouldn't need to "run" and waste time looking for that perfect shot he loves so much.

I am sort of saying these things based on us having no money to do anything so just trying to make the best of what we have. Like Bob should have done 2 months ago.

[leedsandTFC]

No but he is more of a goal threat than Sappong, Akinola, Diomande, or Peruzza. Added benefit is that is he is forced to stick to a central sort of spacially minimized area to work in then he shouldn't need to "run" and waste time looking for that perfect shot he loves so much.

He is definitely more of a goal threat. It'd be interesting to see even though I doubt itd work.

[Ultra & Proud]

He is definitely more of a goal threat. It'd be interesting to see even though I doubt itd work.
For sure a real, legit CF would be better but we don't have one and probably can't afford one either. Not sure we can get rid of Berna either without the buyout and at this stage I would still rather use it on Diomande.

[leedsandTFC]

For sure a real, legit CF would be better but we don't have one and probably can't afford one either. Not sure we can get rid of Berna either without the buyout and at this stage I would still rather use it on Diomande.

No chance we buy out berna.

However his contract isn't unmovable unlike insigne.

If we let him go without a fee it's a manageable contract for a bunch of teams.

But yeah I'd agree that's definitely the best option right now.

[los sonadores]

Agree. Hard to tell if that was because of the vibe, style of play or just outright lack of pace. At least when Kerr was on he provided the latter. Fast guy one side, skill guy other side is pretty much MLS standard, not sure why BB couldn’t figure that out and move Bernie more centrally.

At least there is the chance now to maybe see Bernie in a better position for us. And although I still find it difficult to believe our budget has been restricted because JMR was NOT sold for big bucks (how clueless has Manning and everyone else on down been about our academy!), Bradley this season did add useful young players (almost unheard of here in recent years) - Coello, Mabike, Franklin, Servania. Kerr also has potential though I’m not totally convinced he is a striker. But then Bob did not seem to believe that certain players have certain attributes that make them suited to certain ‘natural’ roles. He was less a total football adherent than he was a post-modernist!

[jloome]

He is definitely more of a goal threat. It'd be interesting to see even though I doubt itd work.

He wasn't a consistent producer, ever, at Juve. Given how little he produced (usually one or two goals per season over the seven years there) I'm surprised how much he started.

This was the knock some of us had before he got here.

Having said that, he scored 15 goals in a season for Fiorentina, although primarily from the left wing -- a narrow front man three?. He also played at striker a few times and scored. He scored three times as many goals on the left side as the right before going to Juve.

And he scored far more frequently in Champions League and against Internationals, suggesting a step down in league should make him more potent.

So he can be a goal-scorer, he's just playing the wrong position and has the wrong mindset. He wants to beat a man, create space, shoot from distance every time, and the easiest place in any tactical setup to do that is from the top corner of the box.

The only solution, to me, is to move him to either number 9 or number 10. I tend to think the former, as we really want him in and around the box ripping low, hard shots. He has a quick release and hammers the ball, he has excellent technique. He'd score more goals than Sapong, that's for sure.

Either way, based on what he offers athletically -- he's slightly too big to have the required speed of first step to beat two guys -- he's not a $7M a season player, not even close.

[leedsandTFC]

He was most successful at Fiorentina, where he played striker and second striker.

He's really only become an ineffective player after going to Juve and being used predominantly as a wide player. He apparently prefers to play wide.

He scored 20 goals in a season for Fiorentina, and 15 on another occasion. So he is a goal-scorer, he's just playing the wrong position and has the wrong mindset. He wants to beat a man, create space, shoot from distance every time, and the easiest place in any tactical setup to do that is from the top corner of the box.

So he's devolved his game, probably after being ineffective as an out-and-out winger (I understand they even used him at wingback in his last year, because his skillset says he should be out there even if his efficacy doesn't.)

The only solution, to me, is to move him to either number 9 or number 10. I tend to think the former, as we really want him in and around the box ripping low, hard shots. He has a quick release and hammers the ball, he has excellent technique. He'd score more goals than Sapong, that's for sure.

Yeah I definitely think it'd be worth a shot at this point.

[jloome]

At least there is the chance now to maybe see Bernie in a better position for us. And although I still find it difficult to believe our budget has been restricted because JMR was NOT sold for big bucks (how clueless has Manning and everyone else on down been about our academy!), Bradley this season did add useful young players (almost unheard of here in recent years) - Coello, Mabike, Franklin, Servania. Kerr also has potential though I’m not totally convinced he is a striker. But then Bob did not seem to believe that certain players have certain attributes that make them suited to certain ‘natural’ roles. He was less a total football adherent than he was a post-modernist!

Kerr is the second coming of Gyassi Zardes, even moves like him. He will always look like a winger, but he has a natural goal scorer's instinct.

[jloome]

Yeah I definitely think it'd be worth a shot at this point.

I amended that a bit. It was actually 15, and mostly coming in from the left, which surprised me given how left footed he is.

But anyone who can do that in Serie A can do it in MLS. They just need to be used right.

[ronzilla]

Out of the last four games, Fede played great the first two and not so great the last two.

I think the stress in the locker room with Bob has affected him. With BB now gone, he will eventually start performing much better with a clear head.

[jloome]

Yeah I definitely think it'd be worth a shot at this point.

I'll tell you what: do a deep dive into his numbers and some things become a bit clearer.

He scored two goals, total, in his last three years at Juventus, both in Champions League. That's across nearly 60 games. He only started the bulk of one season.

He blew his knee in 2018 and his productivity plummeted, from 5 goals and six assists in 30 games, to an average of one goal and one assist in the remaining four years of his deal.

They moved him around trying to get productivity, but he ended up coming off the bench late a lot.

In other words.... he was crocked. I mean, that's what it looks like.

Until his preferences were figured out by MLS defenders, he was very effective, for a short period. Now, they know what he likes to do, and as he doesn't vary it, he is ineffective.

I think maybe a lot of the showboat personality is a lack of confidence, because he's incredibly talented but makes poor decisions on the field, and always has.

Having said that, he is so technically gifted, I can't believe he'd do worse centrally, where he can get looks from more than one angle and supply other players.

[Ultra & Proud]

I believe Dunfield will for sure loosen guys up and also simplify what we're doing. I can see a lot of "going back to basics" happening starting this week and I would be shocked if Bernadeschi isn't somewhere central to start the match.

[jloome]

I believe Dunfield will for sure loosen guys up and also simplify what we're doing. I can see a lot of "going back to basics" happening starting this week and I would be shocked if Bernadeschi isn't somewhere central to start the match.

I know his demeanor is one of calm and being a bit overawed, but Dunfield said a few things about breaking down the tactical requirements opponent by opponent that made me a little optimistic.

[Ultra & Proud]

I know his demeanor is one of calm and being a bit overawed, but Dunfield said a few things about breaking down the tactical requirements opponent by opponent that made me a little optimistic.
I am optimistic that we will improve, especially offensively. I wouldn't go so far to say that Dunfield is the next Vanney or anything but I am pretty sure he isn't the next Armas or Bob and for now that's good enough.

[ag futbol]

I'll tell you what: do a deep dive into his numbers and some things become a bit clearer.

He scored two goals, total, in his last three years at Juventus, both in Champions League. That's across nearly 60 games. He only started the bulk of one season.

He blew his knee in 2018 and his productivity plummeted, from 5 goals and six assists in 30 games, to an average of one goal and one assist in the remaining four years of his deal.

They moved him around trying to get productivity, but he ended up coming off the bench late a lot.

In other words.... he was crocked. I mean, that's what it looks like.

Until his preferences were figured out by MLS defenders, he was very effective, for a short period. Now, they know what he likes to do, and as he doesn't vary it, he is ineffective.

I think maybe a lot of the showboat personality is a lack of confidence, because he's incredibly talented but makes poor decisions on the field, and always has.

Having said that, he is so technically gifted, I can't believe he'd do worse centrally, where he can get looks from more than one angle and supply other players.
So what you’re telling me is, we signed an Italian De Guzman.

[Ultra & Proud]

So what you’re telling me is, we signed an Italian De Guzman.

On the plus side he only costs about 6 times more.

[OgtheDim]

My God the US soccer press is just so superficial

Bob was fired because Bob wasn't good enough

TFC didn't fail because it spent too much

TFC didn't fail because the Italians didn't like Bob

TFC didn't fail because of all the injuries


TFC failed because Bob wasn't a good enough manager or Sporting Director

[Ultra & Proud]

My God the US soccer press is just so superficial

Bob was fired because Bob wasn't good enough

TFC didn't fail because it spent too much

TFC didn't fail because the Italians didn't like Bob

TFC didn't fail because of all the injuries


TFC failed because Bob wasn't a good enough manager or Sporting Director

But he's a legend. He can't, won't, and never has failed at anything before. In fact he made Salah what he is today. Just ask him.



There's a lot of "I love the leader" in the US Soccer world for Bob. They should just make him USSF President.

[R.O.]

My two cents:

TFC (MLSE) might have tones of money, but they play in a league with a salary cap, so you just can't outspend your problems.

So in saying that, you need to have a GM that understands maximizing your roster with the resources that you have, so investing in Youth, getting good MLS veterans that don't cost an arm a leg instead of looking to Europe to spend too much on MLS veterans type (they are always overpaid). And TFC has to find under-rated talent to build up and become stars (RL). They don't need to be a selling team, but they need to have guys other want. Instead of bringing a Front Office in from Europe, I do like that they hired from within, with a guy that understands the system.

As for a Coach. You have to be technically and tactically fluid. You don't have the resources to have great subs that fit your system well on the bench like you do in the bigger clubs in the world. So you have to be able to change up your plans with who you have on the pitch and available to play. This was the failure of Arias and BB. They had their systems and damnit, they are not going to change come hell or high water.

Vanney - through all his faults - understood this some of the time and changed up they tactics when he had to because of the players he had on the pitch and the team he was playing against.

I don't know who that person is, but that is what I want to hear when they announce their new coach - Is that Dunfield?

[ag futbol]

My God the US soccer press is just so superficial

Bob was fired because Bob wasn't good enough

TFC didn't fail because it spent too much

TFC didn't fail because the Italians didn't like Bob

TFC didn't fail because of all the injuries


TFC failed because Bob wasn't a good enough manager or Sporting Director
It’s hilarious because for each of the statements above I can already recognize each person and their preset narratives they trot out at every chance.

The worst is that Phily guy who posts on Twitter. He’s so smug over there with his zero MLS cups. Congrats on being the Oakland A’s of MLS, douchebag.

[SenorDingDong]

I think maybe a lot of the showboat personality is a lack of confidence, because he's incredibly talented but makes poor decisions on the field, and always has.

Having said that, he is so technically gifted, I can't believe he'd do worse centrally, where he can get looks from more than one angle and supply other players.

I think this is largely true looking back. He really worked hard to get the fans on his side. Folks here trashed Insigne for so long, really unfairly and overlooked Berna due to his outgoing and loveable personality. Insigne is on another tier though for quality. He has played really well ever since that Athletic article.

Kerr is far more productive on that right side though. I don't know how Bob didn't see this, especially over the last stretch.

Call me crazy but I would honestly try something like this right now. Least until Oso is back.

-------- Sapong ---- Berna --------
Insigne - MAK - Servania - Kerr

Or 4-3-3 with top 3 of Insigne - Berna - Kerr.

[jloome]

Or 4-3-3 with top 3 of Insigne - Berna - Kerr.

Yeah, that would be my choice. I think CJ and Ayo have their upsides, they both work hard defensively by striker standards, and CJ is good at winning headers and holding up the ball. But we need a scoring threat.

I'd like to see Dunfield try something like

------Insigne---Bernadeschi---Kerr
------Thompson--Osorio--Servania
Petretta---Mabika--Hedges---Franklin

I think Kosi has real potential as an eight. He's probably better than Servania already, he just needs a higher engine. Given his profligately shit passing lately, I think MAK should sit for a game or two.

Run Osorio as an eight-10 and the two on either side as double pivots. If we do it right, it'll let us play between opposing lines and still always have an extra defender back.

[Canary10]

Yeah, that would be my choice. I think CJ and Ayo have their upsides, they both work hard defensively by striker standards, and CJ is good at winning headers and holding up the ball. But we need a scoring threat.

I'd like to see Dunfield try something like

------Insigne---Bernadeschi---Kerr
------Thompson--Osorio--Servania
Petretta---Mabika--Hedges---Franklin

I think Kosi has real potential as an eight. He's probably better than Servania already, he just needs a higher engine. Given his profligately shit passing lately, I think MAK should sit for a game or two.

Run Osorio as an eight-10 and the two on either side as double pivots. If we do it right, it'll let us play between opposing lines and still always have an extra defender back.

Are you assuming Richie's gone with that lineup?

[jloome]

Are you assuming Richie's gone with that lineup?

Yeah. but we don’t know how the dynamic towards a loan extension might change with Bob gone.

[Ultra & Proud]

Are you assuming Richie's gone with that lineup?
I think it's almost 100% he is gone. Too many La Liga teams interested. He would be crazy to stay. Plus we need some roster flexibility.

[leedsandTFC]

Yeah. but we don’t know how the dynamic towards a loan extension might change with Bob gone.

He was pulled off with a minute left yesterday to get a big ovation from the crowd at bmo.

Think it's very likely he's gone.

[ag futbol]

Yeah. but we don’t know how the dynamic towards a loan extension might change with Bob gone.
The best shot we have here is that WC 2026 will provide a big commercial opportunity for the most recognizable Toronto-based player. Osorio will be too old, Kaye is trending downward. There are no other foreseeable candidates for the time being to take that crown. Laryea would be the leading horse to be “that” guy and take all those commercial dollars. Maybe the Canadian market is small and that won’t amount to much but maybe I’m wrong and that will actually be good money. And he doesn’t have to uproot his family.

But if I were him, I’d leave. This will always be here and he could easily catch TFC for one more contract at the end of his career. Go have the European experience and link up with your friend. That would be most people’s dream I think.

[los sonadores]

Kerr is the second coming of Gyassi Zardes, even moves like him. He will always look like a winger, but he has a natural goal scorer's instinct.

Hmm, you might be right. Now if he starts popping in headers then for sure. (But when was the last time someone put a ball like that into the box!)

[los sonadores]

I'll tell you what: do a deep dive into his numbers and some things become a bit clearer.

He scored two goals, total, in his last three years at Juventus, both in Champions League. That's across nearly 60 games. He only started the bulk of one season.

He blew his knee in 2018 and his productivity plummeted, from 5 goals and six assists in 30 games, to an average of one goal and one assist in the remaining four years of his deal.

They moved him around trying to get productivity, but he ended up coming off the bench late a lot.

In other words.... he was crocked. I mean, that's what it looks like.

Until his preferences were figured out by MLS defenders, he was very effective, for a short period. Now, they know what he likes to do, and as he doesn't vary it, he is ineffective.

I think maybe a lot of the showboat personality is a lack of confidence, because he's incredibly talented but makes poor decisions on the field, and always has.

Having said that, he is so technically gifted, I can't believe he'd do worse centrally, where he can get looks from more than one angle and supply other players.

I’d heard only that his numbers declined because it was Juve and he was being used as a utility player (including at left back). That’s an interesting idea that he’d declined and then he was moved around. Not losing his Nats gig though. To be sure one would have to do a game by game analysis and watch tape (short of being there to see those years in the real).

[JoesphNdo]

For those holding out hope, Tata is officially off the table and at Miami now

[ensco]

For those holding out hope, Tata is officially off the table and at Miami now

Looking forward to video of the meeting where he tells Messi that he is implementing Herdman's system.

[jloome]

Looking forward to video of the meeting where he tells Messi that he is implementing Herdman's system.

Wait until he finds out it only works in cold weather environments.

Seriously though, Dunny versus Tata. Ptttf. We'll steamroll 'em.

[los sonadores]

Seriously though, Dunny versus Tata. Ptttf. We'll steamroll 'em.

Hah, yeah… stranger things have happened! I watched the video of Dunfield’s press conference and I liked what I heard. Who knows if or for how long what he does will work but he sounded grounded and thoughtful. And the players sound as though they’re relieved that Bob is gone.

Edit: And funny that when Dunfield spoke of talking with Insigne via a translator he sounded like he was star struck… “I got to talk to Lorenzo, cool!’

[Canary10]

He was pulled off with a minute left yesterday to get a big ovation from the crowd at bmo.

Think it's very likely he's gone.

Wish I'd been there for that. :( He's been our best player this year.

[FiveThreeTwo]

Going through the Bill Manning method of looking up coaches I came across a familiar name right near Gallardo; Dome Torrent. What's he been up to recently? Seems he's been active but no idea how his teams have played past NYCFC, but I know he had pedigree working with pep. TBH i can't even remember why he left NYFC, because from what I remember they were never that bad when he was there, and seemed more he was hampered by the need to play aging Euro stars than anything?

Doesn't seem to stick with teams all that much (Flamengo, and Galatasaray since MLS, but at least those aren't a drop in club size). 1.3 ppg Galatasaray (20 games), almost 1.9 PPG with Flamengo (26 games), and was at a 1.68ppg clip with NYFC (60 games). Odd one is Flamengo - they canned him while the club was on 15W 5D 6L... Is he just another Martino who likes to float around and be a temp/fixer for clubs? Wonder if his prior MLS experience and experience with working with bigger names, clubs and their training/tactical/team setups puts him on list, assuming they don't go with someone domestic. Remind for comparison, Bobby was 1.66ppg while with LAFC.

If they are willing to pay, and it isn't domestic damn i'd at least break bread with Gallardo to see where his heads/ambitions are at and whether he'd be interested in a project to bring a club like ours back up to the top while he waits for a bigger EU gig - never know

[OgtheDim]

Not that anybody thought of him as his views on MLS seem to be mostly "Nice for the money but when they asked me to work hard, no thanks"

but...it won't be Steven Gerrard

[ag futbol]

I don’t see how this can go well. Anyone who is a strong candidate knows how dysfunctional we are and how weak Manning’s position is (which jeopardizes their own job security). They get paired with Hernandez who is of a completely unknown quantity with no track record. It’s not an appealing gig.

We’re likely get long shots who know they might not get a chance to sit in a big seat again if they don’t accept this opening. I’m picturing someone like Marc Dos Santos or Mike Petke.

Even Caleb Porter feels too classy for us at the moment.

[los sonadores]

I don’t see how this can go well. Anyone who is a strong candidate knows how dysfunctional we are and how weak Manning’s position is (which jeopardizes their own job security). They get paired with Hernandez who is of a completely unknown quantity with no track record. It’s not an appealing gig.

We’re likely get long shots who know they might not get a chance to sit in a big seat again if they don’t accept this opening. I’m picturing someone like Marc Dos Santos or Mike Petke.

Even Caleb Porter feels too classy for us at the moment.

Yeah. Manning in the recent TSN interview said they want someone lively and energetic (how can you be a head coach without those qualities!) and new. So I guess he knows he doesn’t hold good cards here. He’ll get who he wants but he’s set the bar low. I guess it could work… and yes, newbie coach to work with an almost totally inexperienced GM. Sounds to me like he’s run out of budget and board/ownership good will and so he’s going for good results on a restricted budget. Still paying Bob Bradley (which is to say paying for a very expensive coach and sporting director - two roles for two and a half more seasons!) and various ex-players.

Edit: I’m guessing we aren’t going to see any player buyouts either.

[OgtheDim]

So Dunseth made some good points tonight

We need (unless they ditch players)


a) Sombody the vets & Italians can respect

b) somebody that can develop players

c) somebody that can motivate a team that is at its lowest ebb

d) somebody who can implement a system



Add to that, somebody willing to come to this situation

[jloome]

So Dunseth made some good points tonight

We need (unless they ditch players)


a) Sombody the vets & Italians can respect

b) somebody that can develop players

c) somebody that can motivate a team that is at its lowest ebb

d) somebody who can implement a system



Add to that, somebody willing to come to this situation

That doesn't sound like what I'm being told is their target. They want Wilfried Nancy Part Two, a guy who's shown at lower levels he can consistently win with uneven or incomplete rosters.

At least, that's where they were planning to start.

[OgtheDim]

That doesn't sound like what I'm being told is their target. They want Wilfried Nancy Part Two, a guy who's shown at lower levels he can consistently win with uneven or incomplete rosters.

At least, that's where they were planning to start.

I hope that is true because I find it really hard to care about whether this group feel they can respect a manager given they way they go about their business on the field is diametrically disrespectful to the fans (with some exceptions).

Beyond the yutes, there are 4 guys on this team who I think understand what it takes to be a pro at this level in the year 2023 - Insigne, Oso, Hedges, Johnson. (I"m assuming Richie is gone)

[Amir.]

Get Biello in for the rest of the season or even on a contract until end of 2024 then possibly extend if he does well

MLS experience, got to a Conference final and and Conference semi. In his worst season he still got 11 wins

[Ultra & Proud]

Get Biello in for the rest of the season or even on a contract until end of 2024 then possibly extend if he does well

MLS experience, got to a Conference final and and Conference semi. In his worst season he still got 11 wins

I think he is pretty good so I would rather not subject him to us right now. I'd rather let Terry go pointless the rest of the way and get Biello for 2024 when maybe something can be done with the roster.

11 wins is no joke now. It'd take us 3-4 years to top that at this rate.

[ag futbol]

Call me crazy but I think the guy we should be going after is Olivier Renard (as GM). He’s handicapped by Saputo’s stupidity and still managing some good progress over there.

He got Alister Johnston for peanuts. He dumped Kamal Miller at the right time and brought in Bryce Duke. Their academy graduates reasonable players. Give him a budget and let him work on peace and it could really be something.

[leedsandTFC]

That doesn't sound like what I'm being told is their target. They want Wilfried Nancy Part Two, a guy who's shown at lower levels he can consistently win with uneven or incomplete rosters.

At least, that's where they were planning to start.

the funny thing is i think we had a guy like that in javier perez, and we ditched him.

i rate some of the football we played with him better than most of what we've seen since.

[Mr. Inbetween]

One day. Just not today. Now. Yet, sooner rather than later?

https://wakingthered.com/2023/07/05/11767/mls-pundit-shep-messing-says-pep-guardiola-and-jose-mourinho-will-soon-manage-in-mls-hints-toronto-fc-could-land-one/

[barticusz]

Call me crazy but I think the guy we should be going after is Olivier Renard (as GM). He’s handicapped by Saputo’s stupidity and still managing some good progress over there.

He got Alister Johnston for peanuts. He dumped Kamal Miller at the right time and brought in Bryce Duke. Their academy graduates reasonable players. Give him a budget and let him work on peace and it could really be something.

I am completely on board for this. I can't see it happening. If I were Olivier I'd rather be in Montreal under a handicapped Saputo system than the idiocy that is MLSE.

[jloome]

the funny thing is i think we had a guy like that in javier perez, and we ditched him.

i rate some of the football we played with him better than most of what we've seen since.

I know people often view managers by energy level and thus he left many cold. But I agree. I think he'd be a very good manager somewhere. I felt the same way about Kris Cummins, and I'd even say Nick Dasovic to an extent, although we didn't get to see him for long.

The three guys we've had but not kept as caretakers all did, in my opinion, better jobs than the guys they replaced. But we didn't give any of them a shot.

I don't think that'll happen with Dunfield either, but I suspect that's planned. I suspect the real reason he pulled Coello and Mabika -- one is from Spain, the other Kenya, so it wasn't the heat and humidity! -- is that they know both are competent at this level.

Dunfield's tenure is basically tryout time for the yutes and "prove you belong here" time for everyone else. I'm not sure the latter groups realizes it, but they value about seven players, total, on this roster as POTENTIAL starters next year, with even that not guaranteed for anyone.

[OgtheDim]

...
Dunfield's tenure is basically tryout time for the yutes and "prove you belong here" time for everyone else. I'm not sure the latter groups realizes it, but they value about seven players, total, on this roster as POTENTIAL starters next year, with even that not guaranteed for anyone.


I have a mental image of some old locker room hand around the place saying to a vaguely threatened player, "You need to talk to Tone....Go talk to Tone....he'll explain what's going on to you."

Either him or Oso.

[Blindside16]

One day. Just not today. Now. Yet, sooner rather than later?

https://wakingthered.com/2023/07/05/11767/mls-pundit-shep-messing-says-pep-guardiola-and-jose-mourinho-will-soon-manage-in-mls-hints-toronto-fc-could-land-one/

I would give it 5 minutes before Mourinho would reach across the table and choke Manning just for the ridiculous ideas he has on roster construction.

[Mr. Inbetween]

I would give it 5 minutes before Mourinho would reach across the table and choke Manning just for the ridiculous ideas he has on roster construction.

:)

...Manning is too crafty for that. He would insulate himself. Imagine, The Special One taking instruction, ahem, suggestions from Jason Hernandez!

[Mr. Inbetween]

If I was paying attention properly to the latest TTID podcast, it may have been reaffirmed from previous TFC indications in a 'it should be understood in a read between the Manning lines kind of manner' by Singh and Newell that TFC are likely looking at successful clubs' assistant coaches (some being former head coaches) within MLS?

So, quick and dirty, with a current cut off at the 5th spot. Hence will miss a few obvious others which the community is welcomed to add...

EC:
Cincinnati- Dominic Kinnear?
Nashville- Steve Guppy?
New England- Richie Williams?
Columbus- Kwame Ampadu or Yoann Damet?
Atlanta- Negated by the Ibarra loan!

WC:
St. Louis- John Hackworth?
Seattle- Preki?
LAFC- Ante Razov or Marc Dos Santos? ... Please not MDS!
RSL- Pablo Mastroeni?
Austin- Davy Arnaud?

[Ultra & Proud]

EC:
Cincinnati- Dominic Kinnear?
Nashville- Steve Guppy?
New England- Richie Williams?
Columbus- Kwame Ampadu or Yoann Damet?
Atlanta- Negated by the Ibarra loan!

WC:
St. Louis- John Hackworth?
Seattle- Preki?
LAFC- Ante Razov or Marc Dos Santos? ... Please not MDS!
RSL- Pablo Mastroeni?
Austin- Davy Arnaud?

If we hired any of these losers not only would I not renew my season's seats but I would go to BMO, burn all my TFC gear, and then go get my tattoo covered.

[OgtheDim]

Kinnear is a more inept version of BB.

[Red CB Toronto]

I do not think he is a possibility , but if Jesse Marsh was named head coach he would very likely have Chris Armas on his staff, that would he kind of funny.

[leedsandTFC]

a competent assistant wouldn't necessarily be bad.

vanney was that, most the best coaches in the league were that when hired (or USL coaches).

thing is, i have no faith in manning's ability to determine who is competent and who isn't.

he really should be fired and his successor picking the coach, a disgrace he's not been.

[Mr. Inbetween]

FWIW, confirmation of previous speculation, this piece off the board...

https://twitter.com/PhilaUnion/status/1678768318063456257

[Mr. Inbetween]

?

https://twitter.com/yorkutdfc/status/1678793399103635456

[OgtheDim]

Not Dunfield

[MikeForbes]

Gonna take a year if it is Caldwell.

[jloome]

I don't think there's any chance it's Caldwell. I know they were looking for someone up and coming but I believe the remit is they have to have won stuff already.

[MikeForbes]

I don't think there's any chance it's Caldwell. I know they were looking for someone up and coming but I believe the remit is they have to have won stuff already.

I really hope you are right. I know Singh isn't always reliable, but his description basically sounds like it is either Biello, Dichio or Caldwell.

[OgtheDim]

Singh also thinks the sun shines out of JMR's skillset so.......

[MikeForbes]

Singh also thinks the sun shines out of JMR's skillset so.......

And that Liam Fraser is heading to Real Madrid 3 years ago. I am just frustrated.

[jloome]

https://worldsoccertalk.com/news/jermain-defoe-wants-to-coach-toronto-fc-20230730-WST-446495.html

Ewww, no.

[MikeForbes]

https://worldsoccertalk.com/news/jermain-defoe-wants-to-coach-toronto-fc-20230730-WST-446495.html

Ewww, no.

Watch Defoe come back as manager, actually be really good, get homesick and head back to England within 9 months.

[Mr. Inbetween]

Absolutely...

https://media.tenor.com/SpcyWGw0YzgAAAAM/tracy-morgan-smh.gif

[wopchop]

"Toronto fan favourite"

LoL

[jloome]

Can we teach central defenders on this team to not make dangerous passes out of the back,please? Jesus H. It must be a season's record.

[Auzzy]

Watch Defoe come back as manager, actually be really good, get homesick and head back to England within 9 months.

I doubt Defoe would be good, plus not proven enough for this job.

Good bit of banter on the RPB FB page though. Somebody suggested Gilberto as the assistant to Defoe. I added "Good idea! Also Jürgen Klinsmann will prepare a new 10-year plan for the club. Paul Dickov will be our star striker. Collin Samuel will be the fitness coach. Martin Šarić will handle acquisitions. And, obviously, Miguel Aceval, Nick Soolsma & Luis Silva will be in charge of team security."

[ElvistheEvilScotsman]

I doubt Defoe would be good, plus not proven enough for this job.

Good bit of banter on the RPB FB page though. Somebody suggested Gilberto as the assistant to Defoe. I added "Good idea! Also Jürgen Klinsmann will prepare a new 10-year plan for the club. Paul Dickov will be our star striker. Collin Samuel will be the fitness coach. Martin Šarić will handle acquisitions. And, obviously, Miguel Aceval, Nick Soolsma & Luis Silva will be in charge of team security."

Well played. 🤣. Just need to make sure to add that Seba is back and wins the golden boot in his first season back from retirement.

[Auzzy]

Well played. 🤣. Just need to make sure to add that Seba is back and wins the golden boot in his first season back from retirement.

Seba & DeRo will be battling for the starting spot.

[Richard]

I doubt Defoe would be good, plus not proven enough for this job.

Good bit of banter on the RPB FB page though. Somebody suggested Gilberto as the assistant to Defoe. I added "Good idea! Also Jürgen Klinsmann will prepare a new 10-year plan for the club. Paul Dickov will be our star striker. Collin Samuel will be the fitness coach. Martin Šarić will handle acquisitions. And, obviously, Miguel Aceval, Nick Soolsma & Luis Silva will be in charge of team security."

Hahaha, that's too funny.

[jloome]

Hahaha, that's too funny.

And DeRo will sign the cheques.

[Red CB Toronto]

Is Terry Dunfield still at the helm of the Reds when they take on Montreal on Aug 20th? That is the question , wonder if we will get an answer.

[Auzzy]

And DeRo will sign the cheques.

Nice one!

[jloome]

Is Terry Dunfield still at the helm of the Reds when they take on Montreal on Aug 20th? That is the question , wonder if we will get an answer.

I think he might be. The last I heard they hand a handful of preferred candidates but all are already employed elsewhere, so they might have to wait until the end of season. Probably depends on how other clubs are doing.


Nice one!

(Rimshot) I'm here all night, make sure and tip your waiter.

[Mr. Inbetween]

Samba time? Chatter is that we have a new coach? Brazillian Odair Hellmannn and a/his trusted assistant Mauricio Dulac? IMO, this selection tracks given TFC's recent past connect to Santos FC?

[Canary10]

Samba time? Chatter is that we have a new coach? Brazillian Odair Hellmannn and a/his trusted assistant Mauricio Dulac? IMO, this selection tracks given TFC's recent past connect to Santos FC?

Finally a rumour!

[MikeForbes]

https://twitter.com/Total_TFC/status/1686969236546084864?s=20

[Areathrasher]

Hellman is also following the French fixer guy that works for MLS HQ - Jerome Meary.

[Red CB Toronto]

Wonder if Jesse Marsh has been approached or is he eyeing to stay in Europe?

[Red I]

https://twitter.com/Total_TFC/status/1686969236546084864?s=20

From what I can gather, there appears to have been reservations of having him as head coach of Santos, as they pride themselves on a free-flowing possession team, and he appears to me more of a rigid tactician. Very specific pressing tactics, not like Armas full-field pressing, but very detailed on when/how to press, etc. After an underwhelming season, him and the team mutually agreed to leave...after one season so... uh...

Might be exactly what we need, or another Armas, or something in between. Who knows! Excited 👍🏽

[ag futbol]

From what I can gather, there appears to have been reservations of having him as head coach of Santos, as they pride themselves on a free-flowing possession team, and he appears to me more of a rigid tactician. Very specific pressing tactics, not like Armas full-field pressing, but very detailed on when/how to press, etc. And he mutually agreed to leave after one season so... uh...

Might be exactly what we need, or another Armas, or something in between. Who knows! Excited 👍🏽

At least he’s used to short term gigs. Something tells me this will be another one if he comes.

[Ultra & Proud]

Wonder if Jesse Marsh has been approached or is he eyeing to stay in Europe?

Let's hope Europe is calling.

[Red CB Toronto]

Let's hope Europe is calling.

He would have to be at the top of any MLS team's list looking for a coach. I would 110% support the hire. The only ironic thing is that it would likely also involve Chris Armas returning as an assistant coach this time around, we shall see.

[Ultra & Proud]

He would have to be at the top of any MLS team's list looking for a coach. I would 110% support the hire. The only ironic thing is that it would likely also involve Chris Armas returning as an assistant coach this time around, we shall see.

NYRB press would fail just as impressively as it did under Armas.

[Smokecell]

Tuca Ferretti out at Cruz Azul.

I floated him out a year or 2 back as someone who would be an ideal candidate in my eyes.

[Mr. Inbetween]

^
Over a decade at Tigres and in that time span with a high 40's win percentage? Resume in the consideration pile!

[Mr. Inbetween]

Well... :p

https://twitter.com/SkySportsNews/status/1690695605411319808

[ag futbol]

Let's hope Europe is calling.
Agreed. I’m sick of getting all these guys from the same small fraternity of American coaches. And I especially hate RBNY or anyone who was associated with them.

Let’s hope someone else takes him.

[FootBallAZ]

What i dont understand bill manning had three weeks to get a coach and implement a foundation . Game is a week a way lol

[Ultra & Proud]

What i dont understand bill manning had three weeks to get a coach and implement a foundation . Game is a week a way lol
Bruce Arena's contract runs until the end of the year. Maybe Bruce tried to speed it up by being offensive at the office but it looks like it didn't work.

[MikeForbes]

Bill still clinging on to the hope that Terry Dunfield can win a game and he can justify giving him the job.

[Ultra & Proud]

Bill still clinging on to the hope that Terry Dunfield can win a game and he can justify giving him the job.

100% believe the next name in Bill's Roladex after Bod Bradley is Bruce Arena.

That fits his typical hiring profile to a T (lazy + easy search, out of contract soon, American, a pal, MLS & USMNT history, and a name you can make a fancy PR advertising video for).

[JoesphNdo]

My wishlist at this point is essentially 3 things

- Not Michael Bradley, or anyone else already connected to the club over the past few seasons
- Not another person from the same US old boys network
- Somebody who looks even semi competent

I'd probably be most flexible on the third point

[Ultra & Proud]

My wishlist at this point is essentially 3 things

- Not Michael Bradley, or anyone else already connected to the club over the past few seasons
- Not another person from the same US old boys network
- Somebody who looks even semi competent

I'd probably be most flexible on the third point

I would prefer that whoever we hired insisted on bringing in or hiring a whole new backroom staff. Need to drop all the assistants, trainers, & physios too.

But I still can't see Bill, no matter how many times burned, not go back to the US old boys network. This is his bread & butter.

The biggest question of all; when we hire Bruce Arena will we keep Conway as GK Coach?

[ag futbol]

I would prefer that whoever we hired insisted on bringing in or hiring a whole new backroom staff. Need to drop all the assistants, trainers, & physios too.

But I still can't see Bill, no matter how many times burned, not go back to the US old boys network. This is his bread & butter.

The biggest question of all; when we hire Bruce Arena will we keep Conway as GK Coach?
The harassment thing, unless he gets an unreserved report of innocence, makes Arena untenable. The board would never allow it.

The headlines for that one would be wild if we hired him.

[Mr. Inbetween]

Maybe. IDK about an 'unreserved report of innocence'. IMO, seems it would depend on what, when, and the context of, was said. May be a historical accusation similar to Berhalter. I mean where was the MLSEB when JTory parked his mistress within the organization? Not even a whimper from the media? Also, you may read the apparent 'disappearance' of Kaylan Kyle into this situation a number of ways.

[OgtheDim]

The Hamilton TiCats a few years ago hired a guy who should have been never hired.

Sponsers were forced to make responses to the hire.

MLSE will never knowingly put themselves in that situation.

[Mr. Inbetween]

Maybe, but IIRC, isn't John Murphy back with the Argos in some capacity?

[Red CB Toronto]

The Hamilton TiCats a few years ago hired a guy who should have been never hired.

Sponsers were forced to make responses to the hire.

MLSE will never knowingly put themselves in that situation.

I was ver surprised that the Art Briles hire caused such a fire storm so quickly. But that was a perfect example He was an assistant coach and typically those hires are typically in the hands of the head coach. He would be the now making them. But the Briles situation at Baylor is the perfect example of people jumping to conclusion before knowing all the facts, what is fact vs. fiction? Reports in 2018 cast doubt on whether Briles was aware of alleged assaults as information came forward showing administrators and local police seemed to bury reports on football players without telling football coaches.On June 19, 2018, former Baylor athletic director Ian McCaw testified during a deposition that the sexual assault scandal that engulfed the school's football program was manufactured by investigators and regents to cover up a larger university-wide issue. McCaw alleged Baylor hatched "an elaborate plan that essentially scapegoated black football players and the football program for being responsible for what was a decades-long, university-wide sexual assault scandal", according to court documents.In late J uly 2018, Briles turned over documents pursuant to a subpoena, which had not been previously produced by Baylor. The documents showed multiple senior Baylor administrators knew about a serial sexual assault assailant" in fall 2011, but, along with Briles, failed to act.[ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_Briles#cite_note-23)Baylor's legal counsel Christopher Holmes sent a letter addressed to Briles, clarifying Briles did not fail or discourage victims from reporting to law enforcement or university officials.

I feel for anyone who works in HR and has to deal with situations like this, trying to figure out what is fact vs. fiction as people's lives are a stake.

[FiveThreeTwo]

Well... :p

https://twitter.com/SkySportsNews/status/1690695605411319808

Oddly enough, from what I remember of him he's a fairly analytical based coach - and kind of the opposite of bob lol. One of the first managers to have coaches/peers work with him on a consistent basis as a team to review data points and use those data points formulate strategies and how a team should play. I think he was one of the italian managers that still had to go through Coverciano- Italy's rigorous technical center/academy for managers... where they have to write a thesis on advanced subjects, and defend it in order to get their badges.

I still remember watching mini documentary on Man City while he was there discussing tactics and methods of play, and explained for 10 minutes the analytics and numbers that go behind corner kicks and set pieces lol; various delivery angles with dip/english or not, positioning of the players, what other teams do and how they naturally like the defend, difficulty of saving for the keeper based on a bunch of parameters. At the time it was the reason Man city only went for near post set pieces; where a few players [Kompany] make near post runs, with a few dummy runs going through the other areas of the zone to exploit when the opposition started to only track the front post. At the time mancini figured out with his coach staff that statistically over various match-ups in various leagues at the time, that teams were more prolific off corners/set pieces out wide when they were delivered in-swinging with low trajectory at a semi drilled pace, that glanced into the net at the near post position (Think Jozy header, Montreal Semi Finals - w. Giovinco hitting corner), versus any other positions or options, including short pass - or trying to deploy a balanced strategy over all zones of the opponents box. So most other set piece designs to him weren't worth trying to force or make work if the %'s were showing them to have inferior outcomes.

At the time in early 2010s, I thought this felt like absolute overkill, but those kind of deep diving thoughts are kinda how the games run at the higher levels now I suppose lol.

Definitely opposite to Bob's mindset of - let's apply their skill-sets in the positions where they can best be utilized, let the lads kick the ball around, build relationships and let their positive relationships help form good ideas and good football over 90 minutes lol (building good Ideas and good football in how we think football should be played- bob styled comments will forever give me PTSD now lol)

Only thing is Mancini appears to be a fairly picky manager - never fired apart from man city gig and the rest were all mutual termination - ex. because of teams not holding up their ambitions as planned and wanted out when couldn't get players/resources/buy-in

[OgtheDim]

Maybe, but IIRC, isn't John Murphy back with the Argos in some capacity?

Its a different person - he's in Italy.

***

The point is

a) Arena would cause issues that would make sponsors pause

b) we have better options regardless

[Red CB Toronto]

Its a different person - he's in Italy.

***

The point is

a) Arena would cause issues that would make sponsors pause

b) we have better options regardless

Has there been any suggestion that Arena could face criminal charges as a result of the complaints that have been made against him? Just curious because without them he would still be admissible to Canada from a government standpoint. Without him actually being found guilty of anything would that would enough for sponsors to really take issue with in. We live in a world where you are innocent until proven guilty.

[jloome]

https://theathletic.com/4776015/2023/08/14/toronto-fc-john-herdman-coach/

Hmmm...

Herdman, Smyrniotis and Carl Robinson in the running. The first two are interesting, the last one a bit terrifying. Robbo hasn't had a great go of it as a head coach.

[JoesphNdo]

That is not an inspiring list, but at least it's not the US old boys network or people currently in the team

Have to admit as a non Canadian whose main exposure to Herdman was the world cup he didn't impress me much despite, admittedly, a stellar qualification record. The nativity on display with Croatia was, for that level, just embarrassing and think he got a few key things wrong. But Canadian fans seem to love him so maybe he'd be worth a punt

But overall those three names say "cheap" and "local", not casting a wide net and not looking to spend money.

[Mr. Inbetween]

Its a different person - he's in Italy.

***

The point is

a) Arena would cause issues that would make sponsors pause

b) we have better options regardless

Ok. That's not my understanding. TY for the clarification and update.

***

a) For the record and please understand, fundamentally, I do not disagree with you and your point. If he used a collectively understood derogatory or discriminatory racist, misogynistic or homophobic word/phrase etc., I doubt there would be or should even be a pause. However, if the remark is much more grey in nature, say about someone's hair, looks, etc., then perhaps a debate opens about circumstance, intent and degree/escalation of punishment. At the TFC LC match I was both surprised and pleased that the crowd refrained (progress?) from that notorious Mexican chant that happens during or immediately follows the goalkeeper's kick; unlike during TFC's Y2018 CCL run.

b) I am not so sure. The past is prologue? Arena would be an easy and known quantity selection; a shortcut that is easily communicated and understood by all. Otherwise, it's a pass on the American network for me. It may be time then to consider a Hellmann or a Symyrniotis.

[MikeForbes]

Honestly, any interview from Smyrniotis I have heard makes him sound even more arrogant than Bob Bradley. That said, he has gotten results in his career. Herdman would be interesting. Has he ever managed a club? The international game can be much different than club football.

[ag futbol]

https://theathletic.com/4776015/2023/08/14/toronto-fc-john-herdman-coach/

Hmmm...

Herdman, Smyrniotis and Carl Robinson in the running. The first two are interesting, the last one a bit terrifying. Robbo hasn't had a great go of it as a head coach.
Not only that, if Manning opened his eyes and did actual diligence, he’d know that both in Vancouver and down under there were questions about over reliance on certain player agencies. I wouldn’t want him within 100 km of our club.

To me, Smyrniotis is the only interesting one (albeit unproven and maybe has his own conflicts).

Herdman is a guy with a rah-rah speech and is dirt stupid tactically as often as he’s right.

[MikeForbes]

Let's be honest, all 3 are lazy choices. Any of us could of thought up Herdman and Smyrniotis. None of us would be stupid enough to interview Robinson. This coaching search has Bill Manning written all over it.

[portu]

You hear about Herdman doing intense tactical prep, some one who dives deep.

It would never transition to a club game. Turn arounds are too short.

[ag futbol]

Let's be honest, all 3 are lazy choices. Any of us could have thought up Herdman and Smyrniotis. None of us would be stupid enough to interview Robinson. This coaching search has Bill Manning written all over it.
Yep, absolutely. Not at all surprised.

Still can’t believe he’s here and being allowed to run this process.

[jloome]

I don't think any of these are surprising. They said they wanted to look at guys who want to step up a level first, and these all fit that. I can also see them giving Robbo a courtesy interview but not thinking he's ready for prime time, given his last two efforts.

Herdman strikes me as a good motivator and tactically confident, but also naive in adjusting. Then again, it's MLS. It's not like he'd be facing tactical geniuses.

Smyrniotis' teams always play attractive football and he's developed some of the best youth talent in the country through Sigma.

Having said that, he comes across as an egotistical philosophizer, and I've generally had enough of dudes who love to expound personal philosophy.

[OgtheDim]

All 3 of those guys are "I know this person so he must be good" sorts of coaches - Arena would be a better choice, and I am no fan of him being given this role.

Disappointed IF these are the only ones but I note Kloke said "among the..." - I suspect there are others. God I hope so.

[Mr. Inbetween]

Oddly enough, from what I remember of him he's a fairly analytical based coach - and kind of the opposite of bob lol. One of the first managers to have coaches/peers work with him on a consistent basis as a team to review data points and use those data points formulate strategies and how a team should play. I think he was one of the italian managers that still had to go through Coverciano- Italy's rigorous technical center/academy for managers... where they have to write a thesis on advanced subjects, and defend it in order to get their badges.

I still remember watching mini documentary on Man City while he was there discussing tactics and methods of play, and explained for 10 minutes the analytics and numbers that go behind corner kicks and set pieces lol; various delivery angles with dip/english or not, positioning of the players, what other teams do and how they naturally like the defend, difficulty of saving for the keeper based on a bunch of parameters. At the time it was the reason Man city only went for near post set pieces; where a few players [Kompany] make near post runs, with a few dummy runs going through the other areas of the zone to exploit when the opposition started to only track the front post. At the time mancini figured out with his coach staff that statistically over various match-ups in various leagues at the time, that teams were more prolific off corners/set pieces out wide when they were delivered in-swinging with low trajectory at a semi drilled pace, that glanced into the net at the near post position (Think Jozy header, Montreal Semi Finals - w. Giovinco hitting corner), versus any other positions or options, including short pass - or trying to deploy a balanced strategy over all zones of the opponents box. So most other set piece designs to him weren't worth trying to force or make work if the %'s were showing them to have inferior outcomes.

At the time in early 2010s, I thought this felt like absolute overkill, but those kind of deep diving thoughts are kinda how the games run at the higher levels now I suppose lol.

Definitely opposite to Bob's mindset of - let's apply their skill-sets in the positions where they can best be utilized, let the lads kick the ball around, build relationships and let their positive relationships help form good ideas and good football over 90 minutes lol (building good Ideas and good football in how we think football should be played- bob styled comments will forever give me PTSD now lol)

Only thing is Mancini appears to be a fairly picky manager - never fired apart from man city gig and the rest were all mutual termination - ex. because of teams not holding up their ambitions as planned and wanted out when couldn't get players/resources/buy-in

Not going to happen, hense the tongue, but the/my hope is there. I would like to see a Mancini or someone else of his generation and experience from Europe give MLS a fair go. In particular, I would have really loved to have seen some of those from a generation before the Mancini's, 65 to 75 now, who regularly transitioned between A and B leagues of their heritage country as well as throughout Europe; a few Italians and English, also some Nordic and Slavic come to my mind.

[ensco]

I don’t understand how Smyrniotis works given his ownership of Sigma.

Herdman is an interesting name, he could probably do both jobs a la Nick Nurse… but, seeing the conversation in these parts on Kaye, Laryea, Osorio… I think he would be well advised to steer clear.

[Areathrasher]

I think if Herdman had been available, he'd have been the perfect 6 month interim type. Come in, pick the group of the floor and improve the morale etc

Intrigued by Bobby. He deserves a shot at a higher level based on his success with Forge but I'm not 100% sure if I want that step up to be with us.

Stay well clear of Robinson

[ag futbol]

; I think he would be well advised to steer clear.
I certainly would if I was a coach with any prospects.

Come to TFC and your boss is a guy with zero rope left and your coworker in charge of getting you players is a complete unknown.

I thought it was interesting in the tweets that it sounded like we approached Carl Robinson. He didn’t approach us, we reached out. So we went through our list and said this guy with an awful record as a coach and questions about links to player agencies, he should be on our list for consideration.

Wow, we are desperate.

[Ultra & Proud]

I thought it was interesting in the tweets that it sounded like we approached Carl Robinson. He didn’t approach us, we reached out. So we went through our list and said this guy with an awful record as a coach and questions about links to player agencies, he should be on our list for consideration.

Wow, we are desperate.
Nah, we're lazy and are still opting for familiarity and/or fan service over proper recruiting and searching for someone with a vision.

[MikeForbes]

Gareth Wheeler is hard to listen to sometimes, but Herdman is starting to sound like he might be the guy according to this.

https://twitter.com/onesoccer/status/1691512875657900032?s=20

[Mr. Inbetween]

^
Dwayne De Rosario, new Striker Coach!?

[jloome]

I certainly would if I was a coach with any prospects.

Come to TFC and your boss is a guy with zero rope left and your coworker in charge of getting you players is a complete unknown.

I thought it was interesting in the tweets that it sounded like we approached Carl Robinson. He didn’t approach us, we reached out. So we went through our list and said this guy with an awful record as a coach and questions about links to player agencies, he should be on our list for consideration.

Wow, we are desperate.

That's definitely being misperceived, they have a ton of inquiries from out of work managers' agents, from all over the place. Many are not a particularly good fit with MLS.

There are just dozens and dozens of out-of-work pro managers at any one time, a very small number of available jobs. Even "guaranteed to lose" jobs get a ton of interest.

And I know that they're also looking at several USL managers who've been successful.

This trio is a small window, not the entirety, that's why it's taking so long and Manning is still saying "as long as it takes" internally.

[ag futbol]

So, from what Wheeler says in that clip, it sounds like Mark Warburton was brought all the way up to the board and they said “no”. They then refocused on Herdman.

It all sounds very strange. Not that I put much stock in the board but I wonder what the stumbling block was?

[Mr. Inbetween]

So, from what Wheeler says in that clip, it sounds like Mark Warburton was brought all the way up to the board and they said “no”. They then refocused on Herdman.

It all sounds very strange. Not that I put much stock in the board but I wonder what the stumbling block was?

Contract?

[jloome]

So, from what Wheeler says in that clip, it sounds like Mark Warburton was brought all the way up to the board and they said “no”. They then refocused on Herdman.

It all sounds very strange. Not that I put much stock in the board but I wonder what the stumbling block was?

I'll ask about this but I suspect this is not accurate. It's completely left-field from everyone they've talked to so far.

Their internal discussions have been about finding someone who has won consistently but also has worked with smaller budget allocations and restrictions, some of the challenges they might face in MLS.

He's 60. I highly doubt this was ever a thing, it feels like an agent hyping a client to draw attention as he is out of work.

Claims in this interview he turned down Saudi, and wouldn't go to a league without "history." Again, makes it seems doubtful.

https://talksport.com/edge/1518924/warburton-reveals-he-turned-down-coach-saudi/

[MikeForbes]

Some quotes from Hernandez who is satisfied with Dunfield's performance.

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/tfc-nearing-decision-head-coach-203647779.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=tw&tsrc=twtr

[Mr. Inbetween]

FWIW, source? Status quo; TD? Or... Someone else?

https://twitter.com/tfcnewsoutlet/status/1691829426332241965

[FootBallAZ]

clearly it will be dunfield- how they havent chose a direction yet is crazy. the fact that if they do hire a new coach theres 4 days before the first game back- do they think they can actually make the playoffs considering the way miami is playing?

[jloome]

clearly it will be dunfield- how they havent chose a direction yet is crazy. the fact that if they do hire a new coach theres 4 days before the first game back- do they think they can actually make the playoffs considering the way miami is playing?

No, that's why they're not worried about rushing it. The season can't be salvaged, so bringing someone just to finish out this season isn't a target.

Would you rather they properly go through a ton of applications and find someone who fits what they want, or should we expect them to just do it quickly?

I ask, because the latter is a recipe for fucking this up again. That doesn't mean I expect them to get it right, necessarily. But there are multiple people probably going to be fired if they fuck this up, so they're not going to rush it.

[ag futbol]

Some quotes from Hernandez who is satisfied with Dunfield's performance.

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/tfc-nearing-decision-head-coach-203647779.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=tw&tsrc=twtr
In fairness, Hernandez is also saying there’s a lot of challenging circumstances around the team and knows the results aren’t there.

But, I think we’d all struggle to make any sense of what is going on at TFC. Coaching search is still up in the air. We don’t know if the coach is coming now or later. We don’t know if the Italians will be shipped out. Yet, the GM is tweaking the roster with incoming players ?

Really the communication here has been world-class awful and it should be Manning up there answering questions, not hiding in the corner office and sending out Hernandez. And god forbid anyone in our press core hammered these guys after watching this team circle in the drain for 3 years straight.

[OgtheDim]

I was gonna say

Who actually thinks this team should now consider making the playoffs this year in terms of any decisions?

[EL DUQUE'----']

Under no circumstances should John Herdman even be considered as coach. He hijacked the men's coaching gig by threatening to leave the national program if not given the role. Mancini to me, is a great option to get the best out of players. He's dealt with headaches and has won trophies.

[Ultra & Proud]

Under no circumstances should John Herdman even be considered as coach. He hijacked the men's coaching gig by threatening to leave the national program if not given the role. Mancini to me, is a great option to get the best out of players. He's dealt with headaches and has won trophies.
He is also too good for here and going to the Saudis.

[Canary10]

I was gonna say

Who actually thinks this team should now consider making the playoffs this year in terms of any decisions?

If they had started this when it was obvious we were in trouble under Bob, there was still an opportunity to rescue the season. At least make the playoffs. That opportunity is long gone now. Might as well take their time, but recognizing it was there inaction/incompetence that got us here.

[FootBallAZ]

If they had started this when it was obvious we were in trouble under Bob, there was still an opportunity to rescue the season. At least make the playoffs. That opportunity is long gone now. Might as well take their time, but recognizing it was there inaction/incompetence that got us here.


you talking about this season or last season when the team was gutted instead of trying to get as many points with players TFC deemed useless or worthless in a trade.

[Ultra & Proud]

you talking about this season or last season when the team was gutted instead of trying to get as many points with players TFC deemed useless or worthless in a trade.
Axes should have fallen around the time of that Athletic article so end of May. Things were already so shit by then there should have already been some contact & initial discussions for at least choice A & B after Bob's sacking. That happens in May and maybe we're still within 2 wins of a solid playoff spot or already there. But we waited too long and had no one lined up so we ended up with a barely (no?) better Dunfield running us into the ground.

[Canary10]

you talking about this season or last season when the team was gutted instead of trying to get as many points with players TFC deemed useless or worthless in a trade.

This year. Somewhere around the timing Ultra mentions above they should have begun the search already.

[Mr. Inbetween]

TFC's MLS DNA sequence since GVanney left...

LDLWDLLLLLLWDDWDLDLLLLLLWDWWLLDDDLDLLWWDWLLLLLDWLW LLDLLWDWWDLWDLLLLLLDDWDDDDLWLLDLWDDDLLLLLL

[James17930]

They definitely won't get the new coach until the off-season, at which point they'll ship out the Italians and start getting the players the new coach wants.

[Ultra & Proud]

They definitely won't get the new coach until the off-season, at which point they'll ship out the Italians and start getting the players the new coach wants.
Better to do it this way unless they hire a new manager soon and he doesn't actually start the job until next season. He could observe from the stands until then.

[FootBallAZ]

This year. Somewhere around the timing Ultra mentions above they should have begun the search already.


so they would be bill manning right? no one else had control to start searching aside him - so this is another blunder on his resume.

also - i did have a birdie inside the locker room share info to me about Bob and the atmosphere in the locker room:
-basically being called out for the ralph for kaye trade
-letting shafflo going-(" he did basically whatever the fuck he wanted")
- confronted coach saying he wants out
-mentioned that to coach there seems to be an agenda on the staff/team
-if choice was between TFC playing for BOB or not playing soccer again- they would have taken the second option (WTF!!!)
- both italians do not like BOB
-work environment was toxic



and yet BOB had Manning's ear while everything else was burning to the ground.

[ag futbol]

If they had started this when it was obvious we were in trouble under Bob, there was still an opportunity to rescue the season. At least make the playoffs. That opportunity is long gone now. Might as well take their time, but recognizing it was there inaction/incompetence that got us here.
Yes, great point.

To put it succinctly, the failure to act in a timely manner means they now need ever more time to fix the problem they created in the first place. Rewarding incompetence and allowing it to compound. What a great ownership group we have.

[Ultra & Proud]

so they would be bill manning right? no one else had control to start searching aside him - so this is another blunder on his resume.


And also Hernandez. He was there too.

[SenorDingDong]

so they would be bill manning right? no one else had control to start searching aside him - so this is another blunder on his resume.

also - i did have a birdie inside the locker room share info to me about Bob and the atmosphere in the locker room:
-basically being called out for the ralph for kaye trade
-letting shafflo going-(" he did basically whatever the fuck he wanted")
- confronted coach saying he wants out
-mentioned that to coach there seems to be an agenda on the staff/team
-if choice was between TFC playing for BOB or not playing soccer again- they would have taken the second option (WTF!!!)
- both italians do not like BOB
-work environment was toxic



and yet BOB had Manning's ear while everything else was burning to the ground.

Who are you referring to in the bolded lines here?

[jloome]

so they would be bill manning right? no one else had control to start searching aside him - so this is another blunder on his resume.

also - i did have a birdie inside the locker room share info to me about Bob and the atmosphere in the locker room:
-basically being called out for the ralph for kaye trade
-letting shafflo going-(" he did basically whatever the fuck he wanted")
- confronted coach saying he wants out
-mentioned that to coach there seems to be an agenda on the staff/team
-if choice was between TFC playing for BOB or not playing soccer again- they would have taken the second option (WTF!!!)
- both italians do not like BOB
-work environment was toxic



and yet BOB had Manning's ear while everything else was burning to the ground.

Your source is incorrect.

Shaffelburg was never a problem for anyone, Ralph was never raised as an issue in the dressing room as a concern, and Manning and Bradley rarely talked.

Shaffelburg did not want to be moved to fullback. There was no blowup, no confrontation. He expressed concern over playing time, but he did it professionally.

The idea that Bob "had Manning's ear" is ludicrous. Bob had a hands off policy with respect to the team and the front office, and my sense is that the front office LIKED that. They wanted him handling everything. They agreed to give him full control as part of his contract.

Their working relationship was cordial but almost non-existent. That's WHY it took so long to act, they were completely out of touch with the reality.

EDIT: Just to reiterate, as I get PMs about this stuff on various sites now, as far as I can tell, most of our problems stem from "silo'ing", people not paying attention to what each other are doing.

All these soap operatic scenarios about internal dissent, factions, people hating each other, seem far removed from reality. Until Fede had his blow up -- and let's face it, their frustration was becoming obvious on the pitch -- everyone was "playing" nice.

That was a big part of the problem. TFC developed a culture of people not holding each other accountable in any way, really. But until Soteldo, and the start of those mistakes having really expensive consequences, they got away with it.

Yes, the results slid on the field. But the team was making money, the blueprint from the past of buyign a "big" DP had worked with Pozuelo... so it was easy for them to take the easy, lazy, irresponsible route of "everyone gets along."

This club has disintegrated because of APATHY internally, not dissent. Dissent would indicate people actually gave some level of a shit.

As much as I think it was to mask his own poor performances and protect his career, Bernardeschi wasn't wrong for blowing up. Somebody had to, and he jumped on the grenade, to an extent.

The culture has been utterly laissez-faire and that's led to most of the upper management already departing and Manning clinging. Even if Hernandez does well, I suspect there will be board members who aren't satisfied he should be there long-term.

[FootBallAZ]

Your source is incorrect.

Shaffelburg was never a problem for anyone, Ralph was never raised as an issue in the dressing room as a concern, and Manning and Bradley rarely talked.

Shaffelburg did not want to be moved to fullback. There was no blowup, no confrontation. He expressed concern over playing time, but he did it professionally.

The idea that Bob "had Manning's ear" is ludicrous. Bob had a hands off policy with respect to the team and the front office, and my sense is that the front office LIKED that. They wanted him handling everything. They agreed to give him full control as part of his contract.

Their working relationship was cordial but almost non-existent. That's WHY it took so long to act, they were completely out of touch with the reality.

EDIT: Just to reiterate, as I get PMs about this stuff on various sites now, as far as I can tell, most of our problems stem from "silo'ing", people not paying attention to what each other are doing.

All these soap operatic scenarios about internal dissent, factions, people hating each other, seem far removed from reality. Until Fede had his blow up -- and let's face it, their frustration was becoming obvious on the pitch -- everyone was "playing" nice.

That was a big part of the problem. TFC developed a culture of people not holding each other accountable in any way, really. But until Soteldo, and the start of those mistakes having really expensive consequences, they got away with it.

Yes, the results slid on the field. But the team was making money, the blueprint from the past of buyign a "big" DP had worked with Pozuelo... so it was easy for them to take the easy, lazy, irresponsible route of "everyone gets along."

This club has disintegrated because of APATHY internally, not dissent. Dissent would indicate people actually gave some level of a shit.

As much as I think it was to mask his own poor performances and protect his career, Bernardeschi wasn't wrong for blowing up. Somebody had to, and he jumped on the grenade, to an extent.

The culture has been utterly laissez-faire and that's led to most of the upper management already departing and Manning clinging. Even if Hernandez does well, I suspect there will be board members who aren't satisfied he should be there long-term.


i believe you mis- read what i wrote. my source is a player on the team- so what you believe to be correct or not is irrelevant. really isn't a debate these are points i was told. your source is someone outside the locker room no? mine was directly in the locker room - as much good information you have provide and is appreciated- i have to believe the points made from the person.

no one mentioned issue with ralph or shaffleburg- the person pointed to these moves as moves BOB did because he wanted to do because he could- with no really logical support behind the moves.

im not sure what the rest has to do with the points i mentioned, the biggest one for me that stood out was the fact the person would rather move on from playing soccer then be coached by Bob.

[FootBallAZ]

Who are you referring to in the bolded lines here?


all this came from one player- which i rather not mention.

[FootBallAZ]

And also Hernandez. He was there too.


wasnt hernandez put in charge after the athletic article?

[Ultra & Proud]

wasnt hernandez put in charge after the athletic article?
He was the assistant GM since 2021 so he was still there as part of the regime overseeing the mess. Whether he had any power or input I have no idea but he was definitely there.

[jloome]

i believe you mis- read what i wrote. my source is a player on the team- so what you believe to be correct or not is irrelevant. really isn't a debate these are points i was told. your source is someone outside the locker room no? mine was directly in the locker room - as much good information you have provide and is appreciated- i have to believe the points made from the person.

no one mentioned issue with ralph or shaffleburg- the person pointed to these moves as moves BOB did because he wanted to do because he could- with no really logical support behind the moves.

im not sure what the rest has to do with the points i mentioned, the biggest one for me that stood out was the fact the person would rather move on from playing soccer then be coached by Bob.

Oh, because it read to me like they were observing this from those players, not that he was giving his own opinion. My bad dude, apologies.

The thing about Bob is not a first, I believe. Heath Pierce, the former US defender, said players tire of him quickly. He said if they listen to him and do what he wants the team does play well, but they burn out within three years.