Can we talk about GO as they has started to check everyone's fare at Ex Station.

[Red CB Toronto]

The GO fare enforcement is really getting out of hand at the Ex platform. BMO is a stadium full of people arriving/leaving, and they started blocking entrances of an already too small tunnel. I’m just dumbfounded by the lack of thought by whoever planned this. I am not sure if this being done due to issues of fare evasion or safety concerns as some have always have suggested with crowding in the tunnel to Liberty Village.

After last night's TFC game as fans were leaving and exiting through Exhibition GO Station they were split into three lines. Those going West, those going East and those entering the station and continuing toward Liberty Village/King St area. Those who were going West or into Liberty Village both have to go under the station and exit at the same point. GO Transit Special Constables appear to have given priority to those who were catching the GO Train west. This meant the largest crowd were pushed into a narrow space as more and more people joined the back of the queue with no movement. Some were ok that were close enough to the front. There was some pushing and movement from behind from what I understand. People at the front were arguing with the Special Constables and pushing the barriers out of the way to create space and move forward.

Although it didn't become a crush the conditions for one were all there. The holding back of the largest amount of people to suit the GO Train schedule seems extremely short sighted and created very dangerous conditions. I will note pre-game at the match NYCFC they held people walk down from Liberty Village on Atlantic as the west bound train pulled into the the station and did not let anyone through until all those that got off the train had their fare checked.

I hope this is something MLSE can work with Metrolinx on so we won't see a repeat of the situation again.

[SirBobSaget]

All of this safety risk and inconvenience is probably netting Go a nice 0$ of profit. Guesstimating some numbers, there's maybe 10,000 with lets say an average round trip fare of 20$. Out of the 10,000, and I doubt it is even close to this high, let's say 10% are fare skippers. They are putting up all this hassle to try recovering 20,000$ in revenue.

Now for expenses, how many constables we're there? I saw 15-16 being mentioned. 15 staff x 8hrs x 150$ / hr = 18,000$ in staffing costs.

All rough guesses but you get the idea, pissing off 25,000 people to try to recover a few thousands. Never mind the risk of some bad injuries because of the terrible crowd control.

[OgtheDim]

.... I will note pre-game at the match NYCFC they held people walk down from Liberty Village on Atlantic as the west bound train pulled into the the station and did not let anyone through until all those that got off the train had their fare checked.

I hope this is something MLSE can work with Metrolinx on so we won't see a repeat of the situation again.

Glad I missed that bit with NYC - they can't wrap their heads around the volume of people using that underpass.

$ recovered from this exercise <= $ spent on the exercise of enforcement

[Oldtimer]

If you read the last game thread through you will find out it was an experiment how it was done. So why a thread based on a one-off?

[wopchop]

All of this safety risk and inconvenience is probably netting Go a nice 0$ of profit. Guesstimating some numbers, there's maybe 10,000 with lets say an average round trip fare of 20$. Out of the 10,000, and I doubt it is even close to this high, let's say 10% are fare skippers. They are putting up all this hassle to try recovering 20,000$ in revenue.
.
The revenue is not even that high.
One 10-car Bi-Level train will seat 1620 and ~3600 crush loaded. So one westbound and one eastbound is maximum 7200 people.

And the trains are never "crush loaded" in all cars when attendance is~20,000. Westbound, there are generally not many people standing in the cars at front & rear of the train, so the reality is the passenger levels are closer to the seated capacity than the crush capacity.

They could easily cut down on fare evasion significantly by simply installing a row of 20 Presto card readers at the street side. When the crowd comes to the tunnel after the game, it is often impossible to reach the 3 presto readers that are there currently.

[Auzzy]

I really hope everyone speaks to their ticket reps. Last night we went through the tunnel pretty quickly after the game and it was still OK, but there weren't that many people in the stadium yesterday. With a bigger crowd (as expected this summer) plus the latest GO shenanigans, that would be a complete disaster. Especially when I used to go to games with my daughter, we would sometimes also do the Dufferin detour. BTW with the endless not-even-starting bridge replacement at Dufferin, the capacity really isn't great there either.

Pardon my French, but the situation is fucking ridiculous. They haven't been able to complete the north exit to the existing tunnel in over 10 years. (That would greatly help capacity in the tunnel, if the existing stairs were only for GO customers, and wider stairs straight to the north for everyone else.) Now there's talk of adding a temporary bridge, but even that's taking forever. I know Metrolinx and all railroad issues are a pain to deal with, but there's no realistic reason that a temporary bridge can't be added within a few months. The right people have to care about this to get it done.

[Auzzy]

If you read the last game thread through you will find out it was an experiment how it was done. So why a thread based on a one-off?

I actually moved my comment here because I was happy there was a thread devoted to it, rather than blowing up the game thread.

Metrolinx is trying different things each game, so it's not a one-off. Fare checking, holding back people & long delays also happened at the NYC FC game. I really think there could be a disaster in that tunnel soon, and people have to make some noise before it's too late.

[SirBobSaget]

If you read the last game thread through you will find out it was an experiment how it was done. So why a thread based on a one-off?

Because people want to talk about as evidence with 7 posts in 7 hours??? Its separate to a game thread because it happens outside of the actual game.

[SirBobSaget]

I actually moved my comment here because I was happy there was a thread devoted to it, rather than blowing up the game thread.

Metrolinx is trying different things each game, so it's not a one-off. Fare checking, holding back people & long delays also happened at the NYC FC game. I really think there could be a disaster in that tunnel soon, and people have to make some noise before it's too late.

Same happened for the Canada vs Jamaica game, just ignore this nonsense your new thread was warranted.

[Blindside16]

This bullshit has actually turned me off of the Go Train for the foreseeable future. I paid for my fare every time I take the train so it is not a money issue with me. For me it is a safety nightmare to ensure that you are getting every last penny. It is a cluster fuck at the best of times trying to get through that tunnel, nevermind GO transits brain trust on this endeavor. What are they going to do when the Ex is on or as mentioned when people start turning up in the summer when the weather is nicer and Insigne makes his debut? Are the doing the same thing at Union with Leaf/Raptor games and Jay games? Are they doing it with regular commuter traffic during the week?

Maybe they should pull out a history book when trying to funnel large groups. After all we just had the anniversary marking the Hillsborough disaster.

[Oldtimer]

I actually moved my comment here because I was happy there was a thread devoted to it, rather than blowing up the game thread.

Metrolinx is trying different things each game, so it's not a one-off. Fare checking, holding back people & long delays also happened at the NYC FC game. I really think there could be a disaster in that tunnel soon, and people have to make some noise before it's too late.


Because people want to talk about as evidence with 7 posts in 7 hours??? Its separate to a game thread because it happens outside of the actual game.

Good points.

[Oldtimer]

This bullshit has actually turned me off of the Go Train for the foreseeable future. I paid for my fare every time I take the train so it is not a money issue with me. For me it is a safety nightmare to ensure that you are getting every last penny. It is a cluster fuck at the best of times trying to get through that tunnel, nevermind GO transits brain trust on this endeavor. What are they going to do when the Ex is on or as mentioned when people start turning up in the summer when the weather is nicer and Insigne makes his debut? Are the doing the same thing at Union with Leaf/Raptor games and Jay games? Are they doing it with regular commuter traffic during the week?

Maybe they should pull out a history book when trying to funnel large groups. After all we just had the anniversary marking the Hillsborough disaster.

In several places where I worked I've been on the Health & Safety Committee, it really makes you conscious of potentially dangerous situations. This tunnel is exactly the sort of situation that could, in a panic situation, result in injuries or even deaths from a crowd crushing people. Mentioning Hillsborough is a totally valid comparison. I've thought about it many times.

[SirBobSaget]

In several places where I worked I've been on the Health & Safety Committee, it really makes you conscious of potentially dangerous situations. This tunnel is exactly the sort of situation that could, in a panic situation, result in injuries or even deaths from a crowd crushing people. Mentioning Hillsborough is a totally valid comparison. I've thought about it many times.

It has the ingredients of a bad scenario doesn't it?
The location; cramped, confined, large flight of stairs, only 3 exits that need to be funneled into.
Then the crowd; boisterous, alcohol, in a hurry to get to next destination, and if the train is sitting on the north platform then really motivated to board it.

One of the pluses for me having moved from Peel to Durham is being able to board the south platform train eastwards thus avoiding the tunnel post-game

[djking2]

https://www.railwayage.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/01_Exhibition_Aerial_2022_0207_PRINT.jpg


That's the new Exhibition Go Station. Construction on the line has begun admittedly preliminary phases. Needless to say things are likely to get a whole lot worse. Be thankful they're trying to figure out how to handle the flow of people now.

[Bushmancan]

It is crazy that the city/Metrolinx cannot build an interim solution as a pedestrian bridge. I cannot imagine that costing much relative to everything everything else and have it ready for the summer. Liberty Village is a massive feeder to the game.... All of the Pubs, parking and condos are there.

[wopchop]

It is crazy that the city/Metrolinx cannot build an interim solution as a pedestrian bridge. I cannot imagine that costing much relative to everything everything else and have it ready for the summer. Liberty Village is a massive feeder to the game.... All of the Pubs, parking and condos are there.
They will, but no committed date.
See Link: https://www.metrolinxengage.com/en/content/ontario-line-early-works-exhibition-station



Existing Unopened Passenger Tunnel Extension and Tunnel Entrance Building

An existing out of service passenger tunnel extension and station entrance will be opened. This newly opened tunnel and entrance with a walkway to Atlantic Avenue will be in service until the new north entrance is completed. The existing platform access at the bottom of Atlantic Avenue will be removed to accommodate construction of the new north GO platform and the GO Track 1 shift. Once the new north entrance is open, the Atlantic Avenue walkway will close and the tunnel extension and vertical access will continue to provide passenger access.

New North Entrance

The existing passenger tunnel will be extended north and the new north entrance will be constructed to provide continuous access to the station throughout construction, including future Ontario Line work.

Platforms and GO Tracks

The new north platform will service GO trains temporarily. GO trains will run on the shifted GO Track 1. Once the Ontario Line station is constructed, the western portion of the new north platform will form part of the joint GO-Ontario Line platform, and the eastern portion will be removed. GO trains will continue to run on Track 1, and stop at the new joint GO-Ontario Line platform. The joint platform will allow people transferring from the Ontario Line to the GO Train to walk straight from one to the other without having to go up or down a level.

Pedestrian Bridge

Installation of a temporary pedestrian bridge spanning the rail corridor will provide additional access capacity to reach station platforms and enhance cross-corridor access for trips to and from Liberty Village. The bridge will also reduce potential congestion in the existing tunnel during special events at Exhibition Place and/or Ontario Place. The bridge will stay in place until the Ontario Line is in operation.

[Bushmancan]

They will, but no committed date.

Pedestrian Bridge

Installation of a temporary pedestrian bridge spanning the rail corridor will provide additional access capacity to reach station platforms and enhance cross-corridor access for trips to and from Liberty Village. The bridge will also reduce potential congestion in the existing tunnel during special events at Exhibition Place and/or Ontario Place. The bridge will stay in place until the Ontario Line is in operation.


Nice find

[Auzzy]

Good points.

Thanks Oldtimer.

[Auzzy]

Yes that's the temporary bridge I mentioned. The issue is, at the current pace and since it's not seen as a priority, it's going to take MANY years to get even that temporary bridge. Metrolinx says "hey it's our tunnel, it's primarily for passengers, and there's enough capacity for the passengers." Perhaps the current GO train stupidity can be used as leverage to create pressure and expedite that project. Also pressure and $ are probably going to have to come from the Exhibition Place board, MLSE, and/or the City.

I agree with Oldtimer and SirBobSaget about the level of danger. This is what I see as a factor: the highest-capacity point is the south entrance and the south-side staircase, with tons of fans streaming in there after a game. The exit staircases on the north side have a lower capacity. (If the straight-up staircase in the north would FINALLY be opened, it would probably even out the situation.) Currently it's a funnel, with people rushing down the south-side stairs able to create a crush in the tunnel and at the north-side stairs.

What if somebody lights fireworks or smoke bombs in the tunnel when it's at capacity?

[Auzzy]

Or what if a couple of drunk visiting fan idiots, plus a couple of local idiots, happen to meet down in the tunnel? I have seen fights (mostly around scarf stealing) on Atlantic Ave, shortly after those types of guys had exited the GO station to the north. Could just as easily happen in the tunnel.

[Ponderosa]

In several places where I worked I've been on the Health & Safety Committee, it really makes you conscious of potentially dangerous situations. This tunnel is exactly the sort of situation that could, in a panic situation, result in injuries or even deaths from a crowd crushing people. Mentioning Hillsborough is a totally valid comparison. I've thought about it many times.

Agreed - in the early days it was a great fun tradition after a match to sing and beat on the walls - kids loved being hoisted up to participate - but the congestion has increased exponentially now I worry about what would happen if there was a rush or push. We the Dufferin route now.

I wonder if they shouldn't just block it to pedestrians trying to get to Liberty V and screen for GO passes and tickets before the doors? It'd be utter chaos at first until people figured out the protocol.

To be super safe - have (free) shuttle busses running to Liberty V after the match. Drop off to the pubs along the way.

[sidvan]

This doesn't get any priority until such time that they are (if) awarded to host games for 2026 WC.

[OgtheDim]

There is a separate barrier entrance to the underpass for Liberty village. Lots of signs.

Will see how it works after game.

[wopchop]

The fencing through the tunnel itself seems incredibly dangerous

All this because of "fare evasion"
Probably all these special constables are costing more than any lost revenue.

[OgtheDim]

They fenced the tunnel?!?

The line looks long

[wopchop]

They fenced the tunnel?!?

The line looks long
Yes. The fencing separating Liberty Village from Track 1/Lakeshore Westbound continues right through the tunnel itself.

[benito]

I arrived at the tunnel pretty quickly after the final whistle from the north end of the stadium and it was pretty smooth walking through. I was going west bound and it was very comfortable going through this setup. I am not sure if those arriving 5 mins later with the rest of the stadium will have the same experience.

[spe18]

Yes that's the temporary bridge I mentioned. The issue is, at the current pace and since it's not seen as a priority, it's going to take MANY years to get even that temporary bridge. Metrolinx says "hey it's our tunnel, it's primarily for passengers, and there's enough capacity for the passengers." Perhaps the current GO train stupidity can be used as leverage to create pressure and expedite that project. Also pressure and $ are probably going to have to come from the Exhibition Place board, MLSE, and/or the City.

I agree with Oldtimer and SirBobSaget about the level of danger. This is what I see as a factor: the highest-capacity point is the south entrance and the south-side staircase, with tons of fans streaming in there after a game. The exit staircases on the north side have a lower capacity. (If the straight-up staircase in the north would FINALLY be opened, it would probably even out the situation.) Currently it's a funnel, with people rushing down the south-side stairs able to create a crush in the tunnel and at the north-side stairs.

What if somebody lights fireworks or smoke bombs in the tunnel when it's at capacity?

Noticed an update on the GO site, which includes mentioning about the temporary bridge ready in about a year from now.

And more importantly, while it won't be an issue for this season as the last home game has been played for Toronto FC, will most likely be for next season. Platform reductions @ Exhibition station, especially on the south side.

https://www.gotransit.com/en/the-future-go/improvements/exhibition-go

[Joe Kool]

If it wasn't so damn expensive I would probably take GO to the games since I live right near the Ajax GO station so would be quite convenient. Right now I can still drive downtown and park for cheaper most days and when driving I get home faster after the game if I am not hanging around the area. If the price was right though I would take GO most days for the convenience of it. But right now it is over $40 return for my wife and I alone and usually we are not alone. TFC should work with GO to have a game day pass or something for season ticket holders if they want to add an incentive to buy season tickets. I have mentioned it to them before. Maybe one day.

[nfitz]

If it wasn't so damn expensive I would probably take GO to the games since I live right near the Ajax GO station so would be quite convenient. Right now I can still drive downtown and park for cheaper most days and when driving I get home faster after the game if I am not hanging around the area. If the price was right though I would take GO most days for the convenience of it. But right now it is over $40 return for my wife and I alone and usually we are not alone. TFC should work with GO to have a game day pass or something for season ticket holders if they want to add an incentive to buy season tickets. I have mentioned it to them before. Maybe one day.GO Transit has a $10 one-day pass on weekends for unlimited travel on GO. And a $30 group pass for 2 people on weekdays.

https://tickets.gotransit.com/en-us/?type=promo

Personally, starting near Danforth GO, it's much cheaper than TTC with the 3-hour free return on Presto ($3.70 total compared to $6.40 on TTC - which only has a 2-hour window).

[Joe Kool]

GO Transit has a $10 one-day pass on weekends for unlimited travel on GO. And a $30 group pass for 2 people on weekdays.

https://tickets.gotransit.com/en-us/?type=promo

Personally, starting near Danforth GO, it's much cheaper than TTC with the 3-hour free return on Presto ($3.70 total compared to $6.40 on TTC - which only has a 2-hour window).

Thanks I had no clue. When you go to buy tickets online through the fare calculator it doesn’t show these special passes as an option. How long has that been in effect?

[nfitz]

Thanks I had no clue. When you go to buy tickets online through the fare calculator it doesn’t show these special passes as an option. How long has that been in effect?Since July - https://www.gotransit.com/en/blog/go-weekday-group-passes-are-here ... it's a one-year pilot. This might explain why GO is reporting that while weekday travel is still well below pre-Covid levels, it's now higher than 2019 on weekends.

It really annoys me that using Presto is now not the cheapest and simplest option, both on GO and UP.

[Canary10]

Since July - https://www.gotransit.com/en/blog/go-weekday-group-passes-are-here ... it's a one-year pilot. This might explain why GO is reporting that while weekday travel is still well below pre-Covid levels, it's now higher than 2019 on weekends.

It really annoys me that using Presto is now not the cheapest and simplest option, both on GO and UP.

Presto is hopelessly out of date already. I was just in London and everything is contactless, and even caps your fares weekly based on the passes available. Presto doesn't even do that.

[noxx98]

Presto is hopelessly out of date already. I was just in London and everything is contactless, and even caps your fares weekly based on the passes available. Presto doesn't even do that.
Presto does cap GO Transit fares after 40 trips in a month and trips 36-40 are at a highly reduced rate. But Presto is still out of date and an awful system

[Canary10]

Presto does cap GO Transit fares after 40 trips in a month and trips 36-40 are at a highly reduced rate. But Presto is still out of date and an awful system

Ah ok thanks. I thought they didn't do it for the TTC monthly pass but maybe that's just a choice rather than a system problem. Contactless is so much better!

[noxx98]

Ah ok thanks. I thought they didn't do it for the TTC monthly pass but maybe that's just a choice rather than a system problem. Contactless is so much better!
Yeah for the TTC I think it's a policy choice rather than a technical one. Earlier this year City staff recommended moving the TTC to a similar style as GO Transit. https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2022/02/03/end-of-the-line-for-ttcs-monthly-pass-transit-agency-staff-eye-fare-changes.html

[nfitz]

Ah ok thanks. I thought they didn't do it for the TTC monthly pass but maybe that's just a choice rather than a system problem. Contactless is so much better!Yeah, it's a choice.

TTC had originally announced they'd do daily and weekly capping with Presto.

When push came to shove, they said with the 2-hour transfer, the demand for daily capping (at the price of 4 fares) wasn't really necessary because so few people would benefit. But weekly capping wouldn't be done, because so many people would benefit that it would cost too much. :facepalm:

Presto has always been contactless. Do you mean accepting credit and debit? You can tap with a credit card on the GO Transit Presto reader - it's the same price as using a Presto Card.

https://www.gotransit.com/en/blog/tapwithcredit

[Canary10]

Yeah, it's a choice.

TTC had originally announced they'd do daily and weekly capping with Presto.

When push came to shove, they said with the 2-hour transfer, the demand for daily capping (at the price of 4 fares) wasn't really necessary because so few people would benefit. But weekly capping wouldn't be done, because so many people would benefit that it would cost too much. :facepalm:

Presto has always been contactless. Do you mean accepting credit and debit? You can tap with a credit card on the GO Transit Presto reader - it's the same price as using a Presto Card.

https://www.gotransit.com/en/blog/tapwithcredit

Yeah, paying fares with a credit card and not needing another transit specific card. In London they differentiate that as contactless, versus the Oyster card which seems to act like a Presto card. I don' think I can pay a fare on the TTC by tapping a credit card (although admittedly I haven't tried). Need to fill a Presto card and use that. If it's different on GO, they need to add that functionality to the TTC.

[nfitz]

Need to fill a Presto card and use that. If it's different on GO, they need to add that functionality to the TTC.They are expanding it to TTC. But they have to replace thousands of Presto readers to do it. Apparently Presto on Brampton Transit and Mississauga Transit already takes credit. Should be working next year sometime.

They are supposed to add debit as well.

Meanwhile people who just hold up their wallet to a reader are already complaining that both their Presto and credit card got charged! :rolleyes:

To me, contactless is the opposite of the old TTC monthly passes, that you had to swipe. I thought we tended to use "tap" here. I feel if I answered "contactless" to "how do you want to pay" at the grocery store, they'd be thinking about Covid distancing!

[Red18andRed23]

Hello!

For anyone who has a default trip on their Presto card you may want to check your card activity.

I decided to check mine this morning after I was forced to prove my payment on the actual tap machine instead of the hand held machine that checks fares. Since I had the extra tap at Exhibition last night, I found I had an extra charge of $1.94 to my ride.

I called GO this morning to complain and to ask for a refund for myself and my husband. I also emailed my TFC rep to complain about the all of the GO train nonsense these days. Enough is enough!!

I really hope they make some positive changes. TFC fans are being discriminated against and it’s not cool nor fun!

If you tapped that green machine ~ check your Presto card activity!!!!

Great win last night!!

Jen

[nfitz]

One match late last season, when the machines on the north side were open, my wife and I tapped out on the north side, and then they were making everyone tap again on the south. I refused, and they let me pass. My wife tapped ... and I checked, and she did indeed get an extra charge. And for the maximum amount to Hamilton.

Fare enforcement have no idea how their machines actually work. Just don't tap unless they have a fare check device.